Okay, we haven't had a Chaos thread in a bit, so let's get it kicked off again. Was adding these to the Ongoing Rumor Accuracy thread and noticed they hadn't been posted (that I saw) yet.
Updated 8/12
Brometheus wrote:Sorry pretre, time to update more! Thanks again for your hard work.
Faeit 212 updated their info today, with this:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++ The 25th is the white dwarf which is all about the new starter and chaos space marines.
Pre-Orders for the new starter set begin on the 25th, for release on the 1st.
Pre-Order for Chaos Space Marines go up on the 8th and the entirety of their range will be released in two waves on the 15th and the 29th. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
First off, I want to say that it just doesn’t make any sense for GW to release the new Starter Set with models that doesn’t have a codex, so we have to assume that CSM codex will be out before the starter set. The only way they don’t (would be a big slap in the face) would be they add a mini update like Daemons and still put off the CSM codex release.
Anyway on to more rumors/leaks.
Remember I might just repeat other rumors floating around and debunk others.
–Special Characters–
Ahriman: Mastery Level 4, Same Stats as before, Access to Biomancy, Pryomancy, Telepathy, and Tzeentch. He is the master of witch ire spells, he can cast three spells that are witchfire in the same phase. He can also give up to three units infiltrate ability.
Huron: Same Stats as before, Mastery Level 1, Spells are randomly determined at the start of each turn.
Typhus: Same Stats as before, Mastery Level 2 can only take Nurgle powers, Destroyer Hive has been changed to be a Nurgle Holocaust Str4 AP2 ignores cover. Has Fear
Kharn: Same Stats as before, Him and his Unit get 2+ to deny witch and is completely immune to force weapons. Still attacks random people, but now a sneaky way around it. Always hits on 2+ in Assualt. Best part is he has Hatred that he can give to the rest of his unit.
Fabius Bile: Same Stats as before. Enhanced Warriors can only ever kill one model gives them Str and Fearless.
Lucius: Same Stats as before. His attacks are the same number as your opponent WS (Avatar vs Lucius fun times). Re-rolls all Wounds, Armor saves made by Lucius inflict str 4 ap2 hits back.
–Vehicles–
Dragon: 170pts AV 12/12/10 Can Vector Strike as a MC, Has Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
Shooty Demon Engine: 120pts AV 12/12/10 Two Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
Assault Demon Engine: 135pts AV 12/12/10, Immune to Cover, 12″ Move, Two Str 8 AP1 Melta Weapons, plus PowerFists
Hellbrute New CSM Dreadnaught: 105pts Crazed, BIG CHANGE no more DCW now just power fist will strike at I1 Someone pointed out to me that powerfists on walkers are not I1 so he will still strike at I4 (From Tasty's update)
Chaos Land Raider: 220pts Only Godhammer variant, only holds 10 guys, still can get dozerblades
Upgrades: Mini Deff Roller Str 5 Ap – hits and double for failed death and glory, Chaos Lash whips but reduce attacks to 1
–Unique Items–
Demon Weapons: All Demon Weapons on a roll of 1 will attack user, but no longer will you lose the rest of your attacks.
Unique Chaos Power Maul: AP4, Fleshbane, Demon Weapon, Any unsaved wounds causes instant death after toughness test is failed, in addition at the end of the assault phase any model with in 3″ must make another toughness test or take an AP1 wound.
Unique Chaos Power Sword: Ap3 Marked for Death, select any character get str x2 AP1 instant death when engaged with that character
Unique Chaos Flamer: Str 5 Ap3 Torrent, Soulblaze
Unique Icon: Once you kill a model the Icon unlocks and any model enemy model within 12″ must take Difficult and Dangerous Terrain tests and all friendly deep strikers don’t scatter.
Unique Spell Book: Gain Random powers every turn can possible hurt you as well
–Wargear–
Attack Familiar: Two additional familiar attacks
Magic Familiar: Grants Random Spells
Chaos Iron Halo: 4+ invul can stack with MoT so that means 3+ invul
Flails: AP 2 Str 8 reduce WS of targets
–Units–
Chosen: 19pts each, Infiltrate gone
Terminators: 31pts each, Upgrades got very cheap FULLY kitted 10 man unit is about 400 pts with more versatility than another other Terminator unit in the game. Still has Combi-Spam.
Zerkers: 19pts each, Chainaxe Str 4 Ap 4
1k Sons: 23pts each, Champion Mastery Level 1
Plague Marines: 24pts each, Same as before now have Poison Assault Weapon
Noise Marines: 16pts each, Must still buy Sonic Weapons. Sonic Blaster 24″ inch Str 4 Ap5 Salvo, Ignores Cover, Blastmaster 25 pts assault 2 or heavy 1 blast same as before now with ignores cover, Doom Siren Same as before.
Assault Oblits: Elite Slot Weapons act like Ymgarl Genestealers powers
Possessed: Random Chart is now D3 acts like Ymgarl Genestealers powers, but determine at the beginning of the turn.
Havocs: 13pts each, 5-15pt drop for all special weapons from past edition, can buy Flak missiles
–Psychic Powers–
Tzeentch: 4 powers only. Prime Power Random Str blast that keeps on exploding random hits for every dead model, 1-2 Roll on Big Chart re-roll spawn result, 3-4 Bolt of Tzeentch but how is a Beam, 5-6 Breath of Chaos
Ok that is all I got guys every last drop of rumor juice is gone! Enjoy, oh wait what is this at the bottom of my cup… Prepare to be Despoiled Abaddon is still one bad ass. His stats and cost remain the same. He will always be your Warlord. Drach’nyen: Demon Weapon, Specialist Weapon, +1 str ap2. Talon of Horus: x2 str, re-roll wounds, BA get hatred to Abaddon, Any friendly unit within 12″ of Abaddon gets Preferred Enemy. The biggest thing about Abaddon though is he makes CHOSEN TROOPS!
If this is true + some of the other rumours.. then Chaos just got back to being bad ass mofo's to take names.
Updated 8/7/2012
via neko on Warseer wrote: Hmm, a source was saying something about the Dragon having a flame template attack to take out armour. He also recommended salt, as he picked up this tidbit from another source.
The live QnA we had here last night was a ton of fun, and there was so much information that it was very hard to keep up with it.
Here is the latest and greatest on the QnA, organized and hopefully easy to read. I am tired, and hopefully got all the information down.
Please thank our special guest for taking several hours out of his evening to answer our questions, I know he got to as much as he could. Also great job guys, everyone was at their best, and that is what makes an event like this work. I hope to get things like this in the future. This one was as much of a surprise to me as it was to you.
Chaos Space Marine Codex As of July 25th, CSM book is set to release in September along with the starter (though not the same week).
General Having not had an extensive amount of time with the rules, from what I have read so far, there seems to be a theme of if you want it, you can have it, but you have to pay.
Basic CSM squads actually end up cheaper than a tactical squad if they take only 2 special weapons and their aspiring champion has bp/ccw.
It's possible, however, to clear 400 points on a 10 man squad with a transport.
There does seem to be a ton of possible army lists that can be built out of it though, and that's really exciting, but at the end of the day they're just marines and nothing has jumped off the page as 'wtf...OP' (yet)
There are no CSM squads that can combat squad.
Does the codex promote a mixed army, or mono god armies?
You can get away with a mono-god list, but at that point you should be using cult troops most likely.
If you're adding havocs to your berzerker army, there's no real point in giving the havocs the mark of khorne for instance. In that sense you're varied.
It's not like 3.5 where we'll see thousand son troops with nurgle vehicles to min-max.
Undivided armies are a lot cheaper than cult marines. A lot. Playing undivided gives you many more bodies.
Marks The only impact on Marks is that HQ models make corresponding cult units Troops.
You can mix/match Marks and Icons.
+1T/FnP isn't as good as a Plague Marine, they're worth their points.
HQ unlocks corresponding cult troop.
Marks are the same. -Undivided still reroll morale tests? -Khorne still Rage -Tzeentch still +1 invuln save -Nurgle still +1T -Slaanesh still +1I Marks are the same, except Khorne which is Rage, not +1 attack and has a point decrease.
Undivided Lords get Inspiring Presence command trait, and improved reserve manipulation.
Dedicated transports get the mark of the unit they're bought for, for free. Only units with the same mark can ride in it, (so be careful).
Undivided vehicles can transport anyone.
Other vehicles may buy them. An example would be the mark of khorne on a predator, which gives it a dozer blade at no additional cost, and allows it to roll d6 wounds on a unit it tank shocks
Yes icons prevent scatter
Marks are bought per squad
CSM/Havocs/Raptors/Chosen pay the same cost. Termies pay more.
Psychic Powers There are 2 debuff spells in Nurgle and Slaanesh, 2 buff spells in Slaanesh.
Psychic powers are rolled, not bought specifically
Eye of Gods
The "eye of the Gods" table is actually several tables. First you roll to see what table you roll on, then you roll what you get after winning a challenge, killing a monstrous creature or walker, or annihilating a unit in close combat.
One of the tables is Daemonic Gifts.
The chart is 6 charts of 6 options.
Units (General) CSM and Cultists are Troops
Cult units become troops with the right mark on your warlord.
No bonuses for Sacred numbers
No one comes with icons by default, cult troops get marks by default.
Khorne Skull Champions can take collars that give the squad and any vehicle it's embarked in a 5+ DtW
Kharne strikes at initiative 5, and he gained armour bane which I guess is new. He's AP3, but for every model he kills (not wound inflicted) he makes an additional attack at initiative 1.
Not quite the same as warrior born as it doesn't keep growing, but it's very devastating for someone with 8 attacks on the charge.
Kharne has a 2+ Deny the witch Kharne still hits friendly models.
khorne berserkers are AP 5 Berzerkers are 105+21/berzerker berzerkers are 2 attacks, rage, furious charge, frag and krak grenades, bolt pistol / khornate weapon (ap5 in close combat). They're 5 attacks at str5 ap5 each on the charge. They can also upgrade to have chainfists in the form of 2 handed chain-axes. 5-20 in size.
Noise Marines
Noise marines are overall a little bit cheaper. Sonic Blasters are 36" salvo now. Aspiring champions have access to a whip that prevents enemies from denying challenges. Other weapons are the same
Plague Marines They are 120 for 5, + 24 for more.
Poisoned only in melee. Can throw their blight grenades to reduce enemy movement speed to 2d6 pick the highest, or if already rolling d6 for whatever reason (i.e. cover, charging) pick the lowest.
Plague marines are now poison in CC. Can throw blight grenades
Thousand Sons Thousand Sons come with an Aspiring Sorcerer in their basic 5 before adding more Rubric marines. 150 points for 4 Rubric marines and 1 Aspiring Sorcerer, He gets a roll included..
Unit size 4-19. 20 points per Rubric. Still slow and purposeful, unless the sorcerer is alive then relentless.
Rubric marines are 1W, 4++
Thousand Son squads are rank 1
HQ sorcerer are rank 1, can be upgraded to 2.
Mark of Tzeench on an HQ is +1 (so you can upgrade all the way to rank 3)
There is a piece of wargear that lets you reroll up to your mastery in dice after you have rolled, but only each dice once.
Ahriman is mastery 4, can cast multiple powers per turn, gets access to almost all lores and has a default psychic attack much like smite but longer range that he can use in addition to his normal psychic powers per turn.
Characters Most named characters are the same, but overall a point reduction. Abbadon is the same points and does not make terminators troops. There are no new named characters.
I haven't read any special character adjusting the allies chart.
Abadon is AP2, Daemon Weapons are AP3
Daemon Prince
Kicks ass and takes names, but otherwise no army wide bonus's are granted Daemon princes are jump if they have wings.
Chaos Space Marine 70 for 5, 14 for each additional marine.
Aspiring Champion is a 10 point upgrade.
Come with bolter/bp/ccw
For every 5 models in the squad you get a special weapon. If the squad is 10 or more, one model can exchange a flamer(5 pts) for a Heavy Bolter, meltagun(10 points) for an Autocannon or Missile Launcher or a plasmagun(15 points) for a Lascannon.
Marks range from 10-50 points, Icons range from 10-40 points.
Cultists
Cultists are 4 points each and come in squads of 10-30. They can have any combination of autoguns (str3 ap-) or auto pistol ccw (str 3 ap-)
They can take special weapons, but not heavy weapons.
they respond very well to dark apostles getting an extra benefit when one is in their unit.
Zombie cultists aren't scoring and cannot be joined by Characters (even with the mark of nurgle)
No traitor guard. Just cultists.
cultists cannot platoon, but you can take up to 30 of them in the first place.
Terminators Will Terminators be able to be given both marks and icons to essentially be cult terminators?
Yes, but it's expensive. Taking both increases the cost of the second and Terminators pay more in the first place.
Terminators pay 50% more for marks. Taking an icon if you already have a mark costs an extra 20 points
Possessed Possessed get to buy (not roll) up to 3 boons from the Eye of Gods table.
Maulers (Elites) str5/t5, 2+/5++, Once per turn can combination of 2: power weapon, power fist, lightning claw
Each mauler chooses individually.
1-3. Maulers cannot deep strike, but are not slow and purposeful.
Dark Apostles Yes daemons can be summoned to your CSM icons if you have a dark apostle.
War Smiths
war smiths who can restore hull points
Chaos Dragon (Fast Attack) The only flyer in the codex Dragon Takes out other flyers with a ranged attack its 12/11/10 170pts Fast Attack
the flyer you get is retardedly good at blowing up things that are zooming.
Bikes Bikes get nothing new, just CSM on bikes with combi-bolters instead of bolters.
Raptors Raptors still have access to special weapons, only the aspiring champion can take special melee weapons. They are reduced in points.
The Night Lord's raptors are a lot like vanguard (they cannot charge on deep strike though), but they have 2 attacks base + dual power weapons (ap3) with the shred special rule and are 35 points each.
Dreadnoughts They can take marks The mark of khorne for instance gives it Rage and a unique weapon option much-like blood talons except it's a giant rotary saw.
Obliterators (heavy Support)
Predators No new turret options for predators.
New Siege Engine (heavy support) The siege engine has a melta blast template.
Defilers They're the same except they have the Daemon special rule, 4 hull points and a 5+ invulnerable save.
Havocs Havocs, CSM and chosen squads can take autocannons
Vindicator Daemonicly possessed vindicators I think will be in every list, with their ability to potentially regenerate destroyed weapons at start of the chaos player's turn
Vehicles
There is a sound-based vehicle upgrade but it's more of a Word Bearers item than Slaanesh.
There is a sonic upgrade for tanks, but it's not a noise-marine thing.
no chaos razorbacks, just combi-weapons
No drop pods
There is a new land raider, it's a lot like a crusader. 12 capacity for the basic, 16 capacity for the new one.
New Land Raider can ram fortifications and you can launch an assault on the occupants, except that you don't consolidate at the end, you remain locked in combat. If the enemy unit flees they immediately exit the terrain. If the door is blocked (by your land raider for instance), they count as having been caught ala Sweeping Advance
Fortifications
There are no new fortifications but there is a unique upgrade to fortifications.
Misc.
don't know about upgrades being finecast. I know that there is intent to upgrade the basic CSM box to support all the cult troops to be able to achieve any of the weapon combinations from the entries (including everyone having soundblasters).
Daemon Weapons are AP3 and pretty different now, you still wrestle with them. I think its a matter of preference.
The "Hatred: Space Marines" rule....is it ALL Space Marines (Chaos and Loyalist), just Loyalist, or just Vanilla? Just imperial loyalist.
Update 7/25/2012 Logan from Faeit212
Spoiler:
Logan from Faeit212 wrote:Also Kharn is supposedly no longer "immune" to pyschic powers rather his deny the witch is a 2+
Ahriman I have heard Mastery Level 4. 3 wounds. Possible 3+ or 4+ DtW. Slightly Cheaper. But not sure. Could be more. he might have an INV save vs shooting only
Expect a few months after release. Upgrade sprues will come. Shoulder pads and helmets. Maybe boltguns. POSSIBLY finecast though...
The original concept was to make very specific legion rules but the problem was
1. They wouldnt be able to fit it in one codex 2. Multiple codices is hard to sustain unless there is much effort.
So there was a compromise. One codex. No heavy legion rules or advantages. But if you waited to play a certain legion they'd give you the tools to make it. With marks or a few units. So cult terminators might have once been real.
Logan on Faeit212 wrote: The CSm codex is the first half of Sept. The starter set is late Sept. No DA this year.
But dont say the starter set is "locked" for september. They could move it to October easily.
Dez on Faeit 212
Spoiler:
Dez on Faeit 212 wrote: Warlords Cometh
If you are currently complaining about Warlord traits being too random well play that violin some more. GW really wants you to use them! The CSM codex has it’s own Warlord chart, but the big announcement is some characters have specific Warlord Traits! These are built into the cost of the model, so no taking them out!
Meet the Geek at Faeit212
Spoiler:
Meet the Geek at Faeit212 wrote: One rumor I've heard is that Legions are in but not... basically it's just the "take X mark on your HQ" stuff expanded. So take a named Lord or X mark/upgrade and suddenly your force org chart swaps around, AKA kit your warlord with 'Night Lord' upgrades and undivided/no mark and suddenly Assault Marines/Bikers are troops. Alphas get Infiltrators, Irons that Dark Tech Marine thing, etc.
Tastytaste
Spoiler:
TastyTaste on Blood of Kittens wrote: So does Soul Blaze replace the AP3 on 1k sons bolters, or is it in addition to it? And since rapid fire weapons can be fired on the move now, do they still have SnP?
[Are just like before, but with Soulfire] They are just like 1) do Chaos bikes get a reasonable price reduction, similar to C:SM ones? [No Idea] 2) do Havoc weapons options get cheaper? [Yes almost as cheap as Long Fangs] 3) do Terminators come standard with Power Axes in their new cost? [I think you still get to pick Sword or Axe your choice] 4) are there any FOC shenanigans like moving Terminators, Bikes or Raptors to troops? [Nope just cult troops] Do the Thousand Sons get any new options (say, like Heavy Bolters?)? [None that I know of] Even with all those upgrades and tables, the codex somehow sounds ”down to earth” like the current DA codex. Does it feel the same? Like a careful approach to a new edition of rules? [Seems careful, I would say they are just copying there approach they used with Fantasy] - How do Icons and Marks work? Are Icons still bound to one model and lost whet it dies? [No idea] - Can Vehicles and special units (Obliteratiors, Dragon, etc.) be marked? [Some can some cannot] - Which weapons of Plaguemarines are poisoned? CC weapons, Shooty weapons or both? [No idea] - Do marked Sorcerers or marked Daemonprinces also make cult units a troop choice? [Princes no, Sorcerers Yes]
75hastings69 on Warseer wrote: Daemons wave is indeed next, CSM is the next Codex (full release) maybe I should have made that clearer in my earlier post. CSM also get some kind of mechanical Centauroid weapon platform/unit, I'll try and recall all the CSM. ive made a list of what models the CSM players can expext, note that i dont know if these will all come at once or in waves, some of these (or click fit varients of them) are in the starter box.
Note also that ill not be adding rules or updating this thread in anyway so that will be up to you guys.
I'm expecting the codex to hit late October or early November (depending on if the rumour that the wfb WoC army book isn't out till feb 2013 is true or not - I'm still expecting that book in October)
Upcoming models:-
Raptors (plastic 2 types) Dread looks like an angry obliterater on roids! Obliterators look good but not as good as the "mauler" CC version Dragon flyer is ok Two deamonic Centauroid cannon things a bit iffy Warp smith Apostles Cultists Some odd walker thing New csm marines (could be recut with added bits? Either way I didn't recognise them as current ones - but then again my 40k fu is weak!) Chosen very nice too
My understanding is the Obliterators are a new plastic kit that includes the CC mauler variant options. I would "imagine" that these maulers are designed to compete in just that kind of role.
AFAIK the current plastic termie lord kit remains.
I refuse to comment about finecrast - (there are obviously characters too, and they're I'm finecast! - iirc new Kharn the betrayer is one of them)
via Erazmus_M_Wattle wrote: I can back Hastings up somewhat here. My moles in GW reported that there was a new close combat unit. Like cc obliterators. Both builds looked lovely. I've been informed that they are going to be two to a box. This reminds me if an older rumour that they'd go up to a squad size of six. It seems odd for two to a box with the current size of three.
The dark apostle is very nice.
As for the dread I've heard nothing.
Perhaps the roided up dread might be a model to represent a possessed dread. I can't imagine they'd invalidate regular dreads. Let's not forget Hastings stated he was only talking about models. No need to panic that our expensive forge-world dreads have been invalidated. I expect the more basic dreads with still be viable.
Update on 7/23/12 From Faeit212 re: the changes in releases from earlier rumors: Upcoming Releases
Spoke to who confirmed that CSM were dropped for Daemons for August.
Apparently a vocal minority I mentioned previously really wanted to see the releases more spread out than what was initially intended.
There is more to this, but I am not going to discuss business plans or arrangements because of the ramifications.
The daemon models being released have been done for some time, and were intended to be the first thing after Dark Angels.
With that said: The chaos space marine codex is done and printed. One person told me that some skids have already been shipped to avoid the bottlenecking from last month, but I have nothing other than their word on that.
Looking at the white dwarf drop box, the directory lists a lot of the articles that were in August's issue now back in for September's scrum meeting, which means that it will be decided upon in the next two weeks. There are new articles, however, one of which is "painting chaos cultists."
While it would not be normal for the starter to be released without mainstream rules for all the models it contains, it's possible they may do a chaos cultist rules release in the September WD, and then the codex afterwards, but another person I was speaking with suggested that there's a debate right now about releasing the Codex and the Starter at the same time.
There is vehement opposition to releasing the starter set any later than September, so I doubt we'll see September - Chaos, October - Starter.
If anything it will be September - Starter, October - Chaos, or September - Both, with the new Chaos models split between two waves. Keep in mind, the new MO for releases is for the entirety of a line to be dropped within a 6 week period, so that would leave DA releasing with some shared days of Chaos.
-There is an Eye of the Gods-like table ~like the WFB Warriors of Chaos table. You get to roll on whenever a character kills another character in a challenge, or a Walker or Monstrous Creature. There is a multitude of gifts (and curses) that your Characters can acquire which range from +1 Save, +1 Toughness, or becoming either a Spawn or a Daemon Prince!!! (Sorta True — trying to lump all the funky stuff into one table is not totally accurate. CSM codex is table land. Expect many random charts and upgrades it will be hard to keep track.)
-The Dragon flyer is in – think Necron Night Scythe with the main chassis replaced by a massive mechanical dragon head with segmented wings sweeping forward and around from it. (True – The thing looks like a dragon head attached to the Owl from Clash of the Titans)
-Dark Apostles – ~Word Bearers rejoice!!! (True– but more of cultist leader/moral buffer)
-Warp Smiths – Chaos Techmarines that can curse vehicles and degrade terrain. ~maybe they’ll have anti-psychotic grenades ( True -Think Doc Ock )
-New Daemon Engine – half way between a Dreadnought and a Defiler. (True -I would say halfway between Defiler and Trygon)
-Defilers are Daemons and have a 5+ Inv save. (Yes a Demon, and some extra lovin…)
–Important Designer Note– The new CSM codex is not a return to the 3rd edition codex, this is the successor to Gav Thorpe’s creation– the current CSM codex. Unlike before Phil Kelly was put in charge of building from the ground up; Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, and Orks codexes he instead has taken a much more subtle approach with the CSM Codex. This is not the reinvention of the wheel at its core this is a validation for Gav Thorpe and perhaps if you could ask Gav, Phil Kelly’s CSM codex would have been the codex he wished he could have written, but wasn’t allowed to.
–What will be Released– We will know if GW has changed policy. This codex will reveal if GW has abandoned the wave method to model release with a new codex or if they have stopped caring and show you all the new models even if they don’t come out right away. Finecast: Dark Apostle, Warsmith, New Lord, Oblits, All Old Special Characters not updated already New Plastic: Dragon, Raptors, Dreadnaught, Demon Engine, Assault Oblits, Chosen Upgrade Packs: Plague Marines, 1k Sons, Emperor’s Children
–General Changes– Almost all of the old units are either the same point cost or have gotten cheaper. With the notable exceptions of Chosen, Terminators, Defilers getting more expensive. The notable cheaper ones being basic CSM, Oblits, Zerkers, The CSM is really an upgrade codex, while things have gotten cheaper you will be hard pressed to keep your units inexpensive with all the wargear you can add. The cheaper units doesn’t come without a cost as well, almost all units saw a LD drop. Also you will start to see a lot of the new USRs in the CSM book.
–What has stayed the Same– The Cult units are the same in stats and basic wargear. No new Spacial Characters. Abbadon is still the only one with Eternal Warrior. Demon Weapons still can kill you. The Dreadnaught is still Crazy. The unit sizes have stayed the same as well as the wargear options found in the old codex; e.g. Chosen can still get a butt load special weapons.
–Psychic Powers– As can you expect each Chaos God gives their chosen Sorcerer access to their own set of spells. That allows you to pick from Basic Spells and the new ones for each God. If anyone was wondering Lash of Submission is gone. Ok now that we got the basics out-of-the-way let us get to the good stuff
Blood of Kittens wrote:Ok now that we got the basics out-of-the-way let us get to the good stuff
–Daemons–
A good number of units in the CSM codex have this USR.
Raptors Oblits CC Oblit Defilers Demon Engines Dragons Possessed Demon Prince –It Will Not Die–
Wonder who was getting this new USR well you guessed it CSM is.
Dragons Defilers Demon Engines –Demon Possessed–
Demon possessed just got a whole bunch cuter really. Instead of not being able to embark in demon possessed vehicles they now will only eat one of your guys and repair itself. Otherwise works the same way as before lose BS and ignore shaken and stunned, In addition some things get wargear automatically.
Dragons Defliers Demon Engines –Challenges–
All CSM characters must always accept challenges
–Icons and Marks–
Marks and Icons are both purchasable by most units. That means you have five new Icons and the same four marks, in which units can have a combination of two. This is a list of the USRs and stat bonus possible.
Fearless FnP +1 T +1 Invul Save Rage Soul Blaze Furious Charge Fear +1 I –Space Marines Better Hide–
Almost all CSM units get Hatred Space Marines. Now I am not sure if this includes all Space Marine variants or just Smurfs and friends.
–?Eye of the Gods Table?–
Yeah this will be the chart to end all charts and competitive players will cry everywhere because it is random. All 60+random abilities! Yes you heard it right over 60! How it works I don’t know, but characters can get multiple rolls on the chart through various methods.
Time for some specific models right? Sure why not!
–Dragon–
Oh the Dragon yeah the model on everyone mind. This is a CSM answer to other flyers it is designed almost exclusively to hunt and destroy other flyers. Clocking in about the same points cost of Carnifex these little hell on wings Vector Strike and bring pain to a lot of things. Did I mention it gets to re-roll wounds and armor pens.
–Demon Engines–
The other mystery model that has been leaked. These guys sit on the large bases like Trygons. They have an assortment of special weapons that have never been seen before. They are designed for Building and Heavy armor destruction with Melta CC weapons and bonuses against buildings. They as well get to re-roll wounds and armor pens. Side note: Defilers as well get to re-roll wounds and armor pen.
–Dragons, Demon Engines, Defilers oh my-
So let me put this in perspective. All these models ignore shaken and stunned, have 5+ invul saves, re-roll wounds and armor pens, and can recover wounds and hull points lost.
–Cult Units–
I know much of the Internet was crying about them only being in the Elite slot when I first mentioned it. How dare they force me to take Kharn to spam Berserkers! Well don’t worry is not as bad as you think. You can also get a generic Lord and buy the correct mark and unlock them as troops as well. As for the rules themselves just minor changes.
Zerkers: Rage, Cheaper 1k Sons: Soul Fire, Same cost Emperor Children: Weapons Ignore cover and now have Salvo USR, Cheaper Plague Marines: Poison Weapons, More Expensive –Typhus and Cultists–
Typhus is now a mastery level 2 sorcerer of Nurgle. In addition as reported earlier he can make any cultist a zombie. Zombies are going to be disgusting in 6th edition. FnP, Fearless, Fear, and all for no additional cost. As for Cultists they are cheap not conscript cheap, but close. You can get over 30 of them in a squad.
–Daemon Princes, Sorcerers , Chaos Lords–
Princes got more expensive wargear bringing them in line with the Demon Codex. Sorcerers are pretty much the same with the ability to buy up to Master level 3, but they only ever have 2 wounds. Chaos Lords are where it seems to be at, Phil Kelly wants you to design a Lord tailored to your army, their list of wargear options is easily the largest of any model in the book. Also remember they allow you to make Cult Units troops.
Ok that is all I got for now, depending on how the week goes and what GW does I might get more rumors for you, but until now that is all I got. Wait, no I just remembered something…
Erazmus_M_Wattle I can confirm for you all that codex Chaos Space Marines will be released in October at the earliest.
The White Dwarf features Daemons. Lots of them but no Chaos Marines. The month after is the 40k starter box so that means no codex until October. I'm a bit bummed out by this but I suppose it gives me longer to save up.
However the boxed game sounds like it's going to be pretty sweet so perhaps I won't actually have any money left.
Hastings wrote:
I was going to post this on the other thread but it got closed, so ive made a list of what models the CSM players can expext, note that i dont know if these will all come at once or in waves, some of these (or click fit varients of them) are in the starter box.
Note also that ill not be adding rules or updating this thread in anyway so that will be up to you guys.
I'm expecting the codex to hit late October or early November (depending on if the rumour that the wfb WoC army book isn't out till feb 2013 is true or not - I'm still expecting that book in October)
Upcoming models:-
Raptors (plastic 2 types) Dread looks like an angry obliterater on roids! Obliterators look good but not as good as the "mauler" CC version Dragon flyer is ok Two deamonic Centauroid cannon things a bit iffy Warp smith Apostles Cultists Some odd walker thing New csm marines (could be recut with added bits? Either way I didn't recognise them as current ones - but then again my 40k fu is weak!) Chosen very nice too
Update on 7/20/2012:
Kroothawk wrote:
stickmonkey wrote:Parasite and DoM are done and fine cast. Parasite is in a small box and DoM is a clam shell.
DoM is Doom of Malan'tai. And Harpy is in the wave of flyers it seems.
Update on 7/19/2012:
Faeit 212 inbox wrote: a local gw store had put a event calendar online and removed it some hours later. It might be, because for August 4th it stated "Codex release party", which would concur with the newest rumors. Maybe this helps.
Faeit 212 Summary: 3 New Flyers in August, 1 Flyer is Chaos CSM - Release in August with half models and codex 6th Edition Starter + other half of CSM in September DA + Entire Range in October August WD pushed back
Faeit 212 wrote:A lot of stuff has been circulating recently and I really don't know where they're getting it from. I just wanted to sort of set some of it straight.
The next 4 major launches are 3 new flyers, Chaos Space Marines, the 6th edition starter set and Dark Angels.
The new flyers (1 of which being chaos) and the Chaos Space Marine book and initial waves are both done and in some cases even distributed to warehouses.
The current itinerary for release is New Flyers plus the Chaos book and half the models for August.
Then it's the other half of chaos plus the starter for September
Then it's Dark Angels and their ENTIRE new range in October.
It's a whole lot coming really fast and there's a little bit of resistance (from certain people) on the release of the flyers and chaos all at once.
That said, August's white dwarf has been pushed back for reasons I do not know. In the past, however, the only reason for White Dwarfs to be pushed back, however, have been last minute removal of content and articles, never additions.
This month had so much content potential that about 80% of it ended up on the editing room floor, so it wouldn't be difficult for them to fill a magazine back up if they were cutting chunks out of it.
As of Thursday morning though, August white dwarf hasn't been sent to the printers. The drop date on that is Friday.
Update on 7.18.2012
Neko from Warseer wrote:
"Ok, after communing with the dark gods, I have a codex release in October. Looks like we might just be waiting a little longer than expected.
Also, from what I can tell about the new type of jump troop, I would say that they are to Raptors what Obliterators are to Havocs."
Updates on 7.17.2012:
Drbored wrote: There'll be a new terminator kit, 2 new named SC's (one is referenced in a BL book, though it's yet to be seen if it's a BL character or merely a reference), and the chaos flier (there may be more than one) is more in line with the FW Hellblade/Helltalon kits. When I asked about the 'daemon mechanical dragon' he said 'oh, so it's like a flying soulgrinder?' Either my source didn't know much about this particular kit, or he was alluding to it being a Chaos Daemons flier instead of a Chaos Marines one.
Kroothawk wrote:
BramGaunt wrote:I'm staying with September for the Starter Set. August for CSM. We'll know in 1 week, anyway. If the books were really dispatched to warehouses around the world they won't sit there for long.
That's what I believe as well.
BTW here the old Epic Chaos flyer called Doom Wing:
A daring prediction:
TheDarkGeneral wrote:I was recently told that the new Chaos Daemon flyer (along with Tyranid and Tau) get released in about two weeks along with new White Dwarf!
via Logan on Faeit 212 wrote: Hey Natfka, great job. Also CSM codexes is just being distributed to warehouses worldwide now. I saw a new sculpt for Kharn. Or im pretty certain its him. Looks very cool. Also the Chaos Dragon thing is pretty nasty at other flyers. But im sure you'll see soon enough.
Neil Kerr aka Skcuzzl at http://skcuzzlebumm.blogspot.com/ wrote:I was fortunate enough to have a nice long chat with a mate of mine this weekend who is very much in the loop when it comes to 40k, and he was kind enough to have a chat with me about the new Chaos Space Marine Codex!
So lets get to it: Release date - 1st September (7 weeks he said) and it is a hard back like the 8e WFB Army Books.
There is an Eye of the Gods esque table (Warriors of Chaos players will know what I am talking about) that you get to roll on whenever a character kills another character in a challenge, or a Walker or Monstrous Creature. There is a multitude of gifts (and curses) that your Characters can acquire which range from +1 Save, +1 Toughness, or becoming either a Spawn or a Daemon Prince!!!
Chaos Cultists are definetely in (but we all kinda know that already), as is the 'Dragon' - think Necron Night Scythe with the main chassis been replaced by a massive mechanical dragon head with segmented wings sweeping forward and around from it. On top of those there are also:
Dark Apostles - evil Chaplains basically
Warp Smiths - evil Techmarine that can curse vehicles and degrade terrain.
A new Daemon Engine - half way between a Dreadnought and a Defiler.
Speaking of Defilers as they are Daemons they have a 5+ Inv save.
'Cult' units are all Elites and are unlocked to Troops by appropriate HQ choices, but there are no Cult Terminators which makes me sad.
Obliterators are exclusively for shooting - so no powerfists. BUT there is a new unit which is basically a close combat Obliterator.
There are 2 types of Raptors now; regular CSM with Jump Packs, and then some kind of Possessed Daemonic Raptors that all come with Lightning Claws!
Possessed are meant to be amazing, and take a lot of benefits from the Eye of the Gods esque table.
There are NO Daemons in the Codex because that is what Allies are for.
Hrmm... the absolutely no daemons thing due to allies is interesting. If they decide to dump allies in 40k 7th edition in 4 years and this rumored codex is current, I suspect there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth amongst chaos players.
Speaking of Defilers as they are Daemons they have a 5+ Inv save.
I made this suggestion when helping Dave write his Codex, will wait and see if these is in there, hope so!
pretre wrote:
'Cult' units are all Elites and are unlocked to Troops by appropriate HQ choices, but there are no Cult Terminators which makes me sad.
I think this makes me sad as well. I was hoping that I wouldn't be restricted like this. Will have to wait and see of course, hopefully taking Black legion will alleviate this.
pretre wrote:
There are 2 types of Raptors now; regular CSM with Jump Packs, and then some kind of Possessed Daemonic Raptors that all come with Lightning Claws!
Sounds interesting
pretre wrote:
There are NO Daemons in the Codex because that is what Allies are for.
I am quite sad about this at the moment due to the nature of Daemons and Icons, hopefully, the new 'dex will make icons work with Daemons from their actual codex.
That's a heck of a lot sooner than I was expecting (assuming this is accurate), I wasn't expecting anything til Oct-Nov. I hope the new Kharn sculpt is backed up by rules that stop him sucking though
The only other thing that sounds really interesting is the new daemon engine, anything chaosy that isn't vanilla's + spikes is good in my mind
Makes you wonder about the cross over between daemons and Chaos SM Daemon Princes though doesn't it.
Surely the CSMDP's will have abilities akin to those seen in the Chaos Daemons codex, or will they be vastly different in order to create a clear divide between the 2
A new Daemon Engine - half way between a Dreadnought and a Defiler.
So 3.5 hull points? Their armour is already the same.
I believe he is talking about fluff/story wise. Somewhere between crazy-crab daemon with Battlecannon and Crazy dreadnought. So maybe crazy dreadcrab with Battlecannon?
A new Daemon Engine - half way between a Dreadnought and a Defiler.
So 3.5 hull points? Their armour is already the same.
No, it gets a 5+inv save any other rules that a daemon engine might have that a dreadnouhgt doesn't.
pretre wrote:
I believe he is talking about fluff/story wise. Somewhere between crazy-crab daemon with Battlecannon and Crazy dreadnought. So maybe crazy dreadcrab with Battlecannon?
The bloodslaughterer and blight drone are already in this size range, so this isn't anything unusual.
no cult termies make me sad, although this codex is starting to sound more like the last one so maybe we'll be able to make cult armies and when everyone has the same mark you unlock new gear
I cant see the dragon being any good, at least not for chaos. my admech, on the other hand, will be VERY happy
There is an Eye of the Gods esque table (Warriors of Chaos players will know what I am talking about) that you get to roll on whenever a character kills another character in a challenge, or a Walker or Monstrous Creature. There is a multitude of gifts (and curses) that your Characters can acquire which range from +1 Save, +1 Toughness, or becoming either a Spawn or a Daemon Prince!!!
Turning into a DP could cause you troubles if your Lord is with a unit or in a transport ect. Again, it sound's like more unneeded randomness. It would be even worse if this meant the Daemon Prince is dissapearing as a HQ option in its own right. If the only method of gaining a DP was by rolling a lucky 6 when your Lord kills an IC then I'll be really annoyed.
Looking forward to seeing the new models and Codex as well. I've been thinking of doing a Space Wolves themed CSM army, with the fluff being that a bunch of Blood Claws got too bloodthirsty and power crazy that they simply couldn't resist the forces of Chaos any longer. Maybe do them as World Eaters but with a dark blue and silver colour scheme.
On the topic of Cult Termies. Does this not contradict the Dark General's rumours of what is to come in the new book? To me the Dark General's Rumours have been is doubt for some time so not a huge surprise to me, but still worth saying....
Also the Warp Smith sounds awesome. I've been converting a force of Dark Mec Skitarii using IG allies. So that guy will fit right in! :3
Lockark wrote:On the topic of Cult Termies. Does this not contradict the Dark General's rumours of what is to come in the new book? To me the Dark General's Rumours have been is doubt for some time so not a huge surprise to me, but still worth saying....
I haven't seen a lot come out of 'TheDarkGeneral'. You have links to more?
TheDarkGeneral - Total rumors: (0 TRUE) / (0 FALSE) / (3 PENDING)
Chaos - Nov 2011
Brazen Knights, THSS IW, Kharn New Model, TDA/JP/LC/COMBIs for Chosen PENDING
Chaos Approaches - June 2012
2 Months from Chaos (August) PENDING
New Land Raider, transports 15-16, unknown name PENDING
Steve steveson wrote:Interesting, that dose however raise two questions.
1) when is the 40k box set out if this is september and
2) what will be out in august....
Good point - they managed to keep Dreadfleet & 6th Ed under tight wraps, maybe the starter set's due out soon too. Would it be too soon to coincide with this release though?
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I doubt that's how it'll work. Plus it happens in a Challenge so there's not much way to be in-transport when it happens.
DPs will not be dropped from the main list.. That'd be crazy-stupid!
What I was trying to get at (and probably didn't say very clearly ) was, for example, if you took a unit of Plague Marines to absorb damage and popped a Daemon weapon lord in the squad to provide the killing power and then said Lord becomes a MC (that can't join the unit), your Marines are boned. Or if you take a footslogging Lord in a Land Raider, and all of a sudden he becomes a DP, his mobility and probably a lot of his usefulness will dissapear.
It's not like DE's Power from Pain, where kiling a unit simply makes the squad better. If you can turn one model into a completely different unit type then it will obviously play differently and mess with any sort of plan that you might have formed around that character.
Steve steveson wrote:Interesting, that dose however raise two questions.
1) when is the 40k box set out if this is september and
2) what will be out in august....
Good point - they managed to keep Dreadfleet & 6th Ed under tight wraps, maybe the starter set's due out soon too. Would it be too soon to coincide with this release though?
I think the rumor mill was giving us a November date for the box set which makes you wonder when the DA will be released. I believe the rumor mill was also pushing more flyers for xenos races in August so to me this all makes a lot of sense. Makes me wonder what they are going to do in July heh (insert the sarcasm please heh)
Usually the Chaos random tables turn out to be poorly thought out crap. Given that your lord HQ can spawnify on a bad D6 or 2d6 roll, I am guessing this will be about as useful as Possessed currently are. But random = fun, AMIRITE?
This rumour claims CSM Codex for September instead of starter box (which is then August?).
Books already in warehouse for 7 weeks, but no starter box seen?
Not impossible (someone else claimed starter box already in August), but I am sceptical.
BTW TheDarkGeneral delivered about 95% of Warseers CSM rumours, not just 2-3 tidbits. As I am sceptical about this unproven source, I wasn't eager to post his flood of rumours.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I doubt that's how it'll work. Plus it happens in a Challenge so there's not much way to be in-transport when it happens.
DPs will not be dropped from the main list.. That'd be crazy-stupid!
What I was trying to get at (and probably didn't say very clearly ) was, for example, if you took a unit of Plague Marines to absorb damage and popped a Daemon weapon lord in the squad to provide the killing power and then said Lord becomes a MC (that can't join the unit), your Marines are boned. Or if you take a footslogging Lord in a Land Raider, and all of a sudden he becomes a DP, his mobility and probably a lot of his usefulness will dissapear.
It's not like DE's Power from Pain, where kiling a unit simply makes the squad better. If you can turn one model into a completely different unit type then it will obviously play differently and mess with any sort of plan that you might have formed around that character.
If your Lord has just won a challenge then he has obviously just done that in combat and therefore he is not in a transport while he has done that.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I doubt that's how it'll work. Plus it happens in a Challenge so there's not much way to be in-transport when it happens.
DPs will not be dropped from the main list.. That'd be crazy-stupid!
What I was trying to get at (and probably didn't say very clearly ) was, for example, if you took a unit of Plague Marines to absorb damage and popped a Daemon weapon lord in the squad to provide the killing power and then said Lord becomes a MC (that can't join the unit), your Marines are boned. Or if you take a footslogging Lord in a Land Raider, and all of a sudden he becomes a DP, his mobility and probably a lot of his usefulness will dissapear.
It's not like DE's Power from Pain, where kiling a unit simply makes the squad better. If you can turn one model into a completely different unit type then it will obviously play differently and mess with any sort of plan that you might have formed around that character.
If your Lord has just won a challenge then he has obviously just done that in combat and therefore he is not in a transport while he has done that.
It is possible to kill more than one unit in a game though If your Lord kills off an IC on turn 2 and magically turns into a DP, there's potentially 5 more turns where their manoverability, or the survivability of the squad they were with is goping to suffer considerably.
jmurph wrote:Usually the Chaos random tables turn out to be poorly thought out crap. Given that your lord HQ can spawnify on a bad D6 or 2d6 roll, I am guessing this will be about as useful as Possessed currently are. But random = fun, AMIRITE?
Of course it is! It's CINEMATIC, which is what 6th Ed is all about! Just look at all the top-tier armies...random tables up the wazoo, right? ...right?
Well, there are a couple of things off the bat I am not too happy about, regardless of the more specific rumours:
1) Hard back book - PITA to read, PITA to carry around. My model carry bag is heavy enough already and I don't really want to replace my reasonably light, thin paperback with a big, heavy hardback.
2) More random crap - Don't like random rolls and effects. I have no issue with rolling badly and losing, but don't want to have random buffs and debuffs all over the place.
Well here's to a Chaos codex which makes me want to play again. It's almost difficult to produce a product which makes you quit the entire hobby, but they managed it. I really hope that their codex producing skills have improved since their last try on a Chaos Space Marine codex.
DarthOvious wrote:
If your Lord has just won a challenge then he has obviously just done that in combat and therefore he is not in a transport while he has done that.
It is possible to kill more than one unit in a game though If your Lord kills off an IC on turn 2 and magically turns into a DP, there's potentially 5 more turns where their manoverability, or the survivability of the squad they were with is goping to suffer considerably.
Well OK, but getting a upgrade for your character surely isn't a bad thing and when this happens you'll be in your opponents half already. I'm also assuming that the points cost has been considered in this respects.
SilverMK2 wrote:1) Hard back book - PITA to read, PITA to carry around. My model carry bag is heavy enough already and I don't really want to replace my reasonably light, thin paperback with a big, heavy hardback..
Hard back is for reading at home and to look impressive on the coffee table, the ipad edition is the one you are supposed to use at the gaming table.
SilverMK2 wrote:1) Hard back book - PITA to read, PITA to carry around. My model carry bag is heavy enough already and I don't really want to replace my reasonably light, thin paperback with a big, heavy hardback..
Hard back is for reading at home and to look impressive on the coffee table, the ipad edition is the one you are supposed to use at the gaming table.
Well, I look forward to you sending me an iPad and a voucher for the store to get a copy
And I don't want the book to read either - what with 90% of it being recycled from codex to codex...
Any idea if they are going to make spawns more viable? Somewhat similar to how they are more effective in WFB? Since pretty much everything is immune to fear in 40k, I really don't see what the point of turning something into a spawn is. Random movement and attacks, really doesn't appeal to me tbh. Warpsmiths and the Dark tech marines sound pretty interesting, and I am hoping the possessed are what they should be. Chaos Dragon doesn't sound too promising.
I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Demon Princes went away. Having the same unit in two different armies with different rules, now that we have allies, is potential for confusion. I could easily see them saying all Demons, including princes, come as allies.
SilverMK2 wrote:1) Hard back book - PITA to read, PITA to carry around. My model carry bag is heavy enough already and I don't really want to replace my reasonably light, thin paperback with a big, heavy hardback..
Hard back is for reading at home and to look impressive on the coffee table, the ipad edition is the one you are supposed to use at the gaming table.
A Netbook in cheaper then a Ipad, has better hardware specification, compatible with more programs, and actually comes with a Keyboard...
=/
To bad GW is more interested in the Ipad fad then creating digital products that are actually useful to the everyday gamer.
Just Dave wrote:I get the feeling this Dragon will be kinda like the Dreadknight seems to be IMHO, in that most vet's will hate it, most new players will love it.
Just Dave wrote:I get the feeling this Dragon will be kinda like the Dreadknight seems to be IMHO, in that most vet's will hate it, most new players will love it.
That's a pretty broad brush! Where'd you get it?
I used my Discrimination-Red paint pot.
I tried to emphasise that it was just my opinion though - it's just the impression I've got.
Just Dave wrote:I get the feeling this Dragon will be kinda like the Dreadknight seems to be IMHO, in that most vet's will hate it, most new players will love it.
Personally I don't care... if I want one in my army and I like the look I'll use it, if I don't I'll convert it. People give it flak for being a "dragon" but as I've pointed out 2 of the epic chaos models are pretty much flying dragons... and in that sense had a more established basis to them than the Dreadknight did. Chaos employs daemon engines and I'm happy to see GW emphasizing that with a fully chaos kit, something that isn't just "imperial + spikes."
meh, from me for my Iron warriors front especially if All chaos forces can take Warmsith equivalents....
also agree with this
SilverMK2 wrote:
2) More random crap - Don't like random rolls and effects. I have no issue with rolling badly and losing, but don't want to have random buffs and debuffs all over the place.
especially as an Iron Warriors player i feel the legion shias away from this random chaos mutatey BS, hence the sawing them off and adding Bionic dohickys instead
Just Dave wrote:I get the feeling this Dragon will be kinda like the Dreadknight seems to be IMHO, in that most vet's will hate it, most new players will love it.
I think if DreadKnight had looked more like a Knight Titan thingy, (a bit like a conversion that came up a while back) no one whould have had issues with it. Its just that danged baby carrier look that hurts it as a model.
Also the whole cheapened the idea of Grey Knight in termie armour just taking on Greater Daemons anyways because they can.
I think this Dragon is likely to be recieved in a similar fashion to the Defiler.
If this "Dragon" looks like a huge bad ass mechanical dragon that can fly up to other fliers and smash them out of the sky? Then this is going to look awsome.
If it looks like a Air plane shaped like a dragon, it's going to look really silly and cheap.
Sgt.Roadkill wrote:meh, from me for my Iron warriors front especially if All chaos forces can take Warmsith equivalents....
Don't you want to atleast see IF they get anymore for them, or IF it really is an unrestricted choice for other armies?-Oh wait, what you're doing is easier. This codex seems to be defined by HQ and Elite choices that depending on your choice allow you to take more of them to represent different subfactions. For Iron warriors Warmith/warpsmith may become a 0-3 for one FOC choice... grasping for exclusivity of unit choices as the only way to define character is a rather weak one. The way I see it, you're likely to have the option of taking more obliterators... and even by means of the allies rule utilize other artillery. Then its upto you to say what an Iron Warriors army is, not for GW to force feed it to you, just so someone else can complain that its never enough.
SilverMK2 wrote:1) Hard back book - PITA to read, PITA to carry around. My model carry bag is heavy enough already and I don't really want to replace my reasonably light, thin paperback with a big, heavy hardback..
Hard back is for reading at home and to look impressive on the coffee table, the ipad edition is the one you are supposed to use at the gaming table.
A Netbook in cheaper then a Ipad, has better hardware specification, compatible with more programs, and actually comes with a Keyboard...
=/
To bad GW is more interested in the Ipad fad then creating digital products that are actually useful to the everyday gamer.
Coz netbooks are so commen... Oh, wait, no, that was 4 years ago.
Just Dave wrote:I get the feeling this Dragon will be kinda like the Dreadknight seems to be IMHO, in that most vet's will hate it, most new players will love it.
Personally I don't care... if I want one in my army and I like the look I'll use it, if I don't I'll convert it. People give it flak for being a "dragon" but as I've pointed out 2 of the epic chaos models are pretty much flying dragons... and in that sense had a more established basis to them than the Dreadknight did. Chaos employs daemon engines and I'm happy to see GW emphasizing that with a fully chaos kit, something that isn't just "imperial + spikes."
This rumored model has always sounded like a Doomwing to me. Or at least a "Doomwing" in the way that a Tyrannofex is an "Exocrine", etc. They seem to avoid using the old Epic names for certain things, even if that's what they really are.
And I agree that this book sounds a lot like a "Plus" version of the current one. Maybe not a lot of direct Legion support, but more tools and ability to do them yourself. Still sounds like an improvement to me.
The fluff in the new rulebook seems to have a greater focus on cultists, and includes multiple mentions of Plague Zombies and Mutants too. Might indicate what we'll see in the new codex. Perhaps Mutants and Zombies are "upgrades" for cultists? More LATD-type elements would be a very good thing.
Just Dave wrote:I get the feeling this Dragon will be kinda like the Dreadknight seems to be IMHO, in that most vet's will hate it, most new players will love it.
Personally I don't care... if I want one in my army and I like the look I'll use it, if I don't I'll convert it. People give it flak for being a "dragon" but as I've pointed out 2 of the epic chaos models are pretty much flying dragons... and in that sense had a more established basis to them than the Dreadknight did. Chaos employs daemon engines and I'm happy to see GW emphasizing that with a fully chaos kit, something that isn't just "imperial + spikes."
This rumored model has always sounded like a Doomwing to me. Or at least a "Doomwing" in the way that a Tyrannofex is an "Exocrine", etc. They seem to avoid using the old Epic names for certain things, even if that's what they really are.
My guess is its some mix of copyright/authorship considerations coupled with a desire to give the design staff the flexibility to create unit that isn't 100% identical to a preexisting concept.
gorgon wrote:
The fluff in the new rulebook seems to have a greater focus on cultists, and includes multiple mentions of Plague Zombies and Mutants too. Might indicate what we'll see in the new codex. Perhaps Mutants and Zombies are "upgrades" for cultists? More LATD-type elements would be a very good thing.
This is another positive in my book. Chaos is all about these different warlords running off and building their own little powerbases. Given that there are far more mundane mortals than space marines who worship chaos, it'd only make sense that such a personal empire would have more traitors and cultists than marines.
SilverMK2 wrote:1) Hard back book - PITA to read, PITA to carry around. My model carry bag is heavy enough already and I don't really want to replace my reasonably light, thin paperback with a big, heavy hardback..
Hard back is for reading at home and to look impressive on the coffee table, the ipad edition is the one you are supposed to use at the gaming table.
A Netbook in cheaper then a Ipad, has better hardware specification, compatible with more programs, and actually comes with a Keyboard...
=/
To bad GW is more interested in the Ipad fad then creating digital products that are actually useful to the everyday gamer.
Coz netbooks are so commen... Oh, wait, no, that was 4 years ago.
There are componies that still make Netbooks, and I'm picking one up in a few months actually. The modern net-books well not as common, are still pretty good little machines that are sadly underrated by most people.
But the point is a Netbook runs the same OS that every other computer runs. Just on a Bugget. Heck instead of buying a Ipad, just buy a Laptop for just as much and have a even MORE powerful machine then a Ipad!
Or you know. You could buy a considerably less powerful machine with a gimmicky touch screen, and the "apple tax" on the hardware.
I like the sound of these rumors. ADB had said that he guessed that the next book would have fluff to guide people into making fluffy armies, rather than rules to enforce it, which sounds good to me...
Sgt.Roadkill wrote:meh, from me for my Iron warriors front especially if All chaos forces can take Warmsith equivalents....
Don't you want to atleast see IF they get anymore for them, or IF it really is an unrestricted choice for other armies?-Oh wait, what you're doing is easier. This codex seems to be defined by HQ and Elite choices that depending on your choice allow you to take more of them to represent different subfactions. For Iron warriors Warmith/warpsmith may become a 0-3 for one FOC choice... grasping for exclusivity of unit choices as the only way to define character is a rather weak one. The way I see it, you're likely to have the option of taking more obliterators... and even by means of the allies rule utilize other artillery. Then its upto you to say what an Iron Warriors army is, not for GW to force feed it to you, just so someone else can complain that its never enough.
While you maybe right and i should wait, I have have very little faith in GW due to the last few Codexes GW has released, (with the exception of the Necron one). I Am still hurting from the last dexes blandness/couple of uber builds and I also HIGHLY doubt if GW will reinstate 0-1 on oblits under any circumstances, once they unlock something through codex rewrites or retcons for an entire army its not usual for them to retcon the 0-1, well not that I've seen. Cult troops are an exception here as GW can never seem to decide where to put them, ofc as oblits are technically cult troops it could be argued that this would fit this pattern to. There may be a difference between Warpsmiths and Warsmiths. I am hoping the former is a member of the Dark Mechnicum rather than chaos techpriest.
And i have never relied on GW spoon feeding me, otherwise I'd damn well not have an Arbite army, floating around.
so um yeah have a nice day!
P.S: in relation to this whole waiting and judging? what the point of being able to comment on a thread about rumours for it if we can't have a minor bitch and be excited/speculate about something at the same time. Good pracitce for the looming presence of a first child
Sgt.Roadkill wrote:meh, from me for my Iron warriors front especially if All chaos forces can take Warmsith equivalents....
Don't you want to atleast see IF they get anymore for them, or IF it really is an unrestricted choice for other armies?-Oh wait, what you're doing is easier. This codex seems to be defined by HQ and Elite choices that depending on your choice allow you to take more of them to represent different subfactions. For Iron warriors Warmith/warpsmith may become a 0-3 for one FOC choice... grasping for exclusivity of unit choices as the only way to define character is a rather weak one. The way I see it, you're likely to have the option of taking more obliterators... and even by means of the allies rule utilize other artillery. Then its upto you to say what an Iron Warriors army is, not for GW to force feed it to you, just so someone else can complain that its never enough.
While you maybe right and i should wait, I have have very little faith in GW due to the last few Codexes GW has released, (with the exception of the Necron one). I Am still hurting from the last dexes blandness/couple of uber builds and I also HIGHLY doubt if GW will reinstate 0-1 on oblits under any circumstances, once they unlock something through codex rewrites or retcons for an entire army its not usual for them to retcon the 0-1, well not that I've seen. Cult troops are an exception here as GW can never seem to decide where to put them, ofc as oblits are technically cult troops it could be argued that this would fit this pattern to. There may be a difference between Warpsmiths and Warsmiths. I am hoping the former is a member of the Dark Mechnicum rather than chaos techpriest.
And i have never relied on GW spoon feeding me, otherwise I'd damn well not have an Arbite army, floating around.
so um yeah have a nice day!
The notion is that different HQ choices make specific cult untis troops... if that holds true the implication would be that obliterators representing the Iron Warriors to a degree could be a troop or pseudo-troop choice for them. The other part of this is that if the codex really works this way, a majority of the time players will be fulfilling those requisites leaving secondary units as Warsmith/warp smiths as something they have to be pickier about.
You say cult troops are an exception... but I have to say its only an exception on paper and not in practice. Here is why: in the old codex you had 4 cult marine units competing for 6 FOC slots... now (dependent on your choice) you have 3 units fighting for 3 FOC slots and one unit that you can take 6 copies of. How many players actually played a list where they had all 4 cults in a single list?-I've never seen such a list, atleast not a good one. The only other thing you could do in the current codex that you can't with the new one is field 2 units of one cult, 2 units of a second cult, and 2 units of a third cult... another thing I don't see ever.
Also, I said "force feed" not "spoon feed." I don't tend to think its as well intended as the latter implies. Also I have an Arbite army to, so I know what you're talking about.. I'm happy GW is making cultists at the heart of this codex. Its the most straightforwardly fluffy inclusion they could have made.
aka_mythos wrote:]The notion is that different HQ choices make specific cult untis troops... if that holds true the implication would be that obliterators representing the Iron Warriors to a degree could be a troop or pseudo-troop choice for them.
WOOT!!!! I know we're wishlisting, but I'll double down on that!
aka_mythos wrote:]The notion is that different HQ choices make specific cult untis troops... if that holds true the implication would be that obliterators representing the Iron Warriors to a degree could be a troop or pseudo-troop choice for them.
WOOT!!!! I know we're wishlisting, but I'll double down on that!
I'm inclined to believe they'd be more of the pseudo-troop... all the benefits of being a troop choice while not filling those FOC slots. There is also the implication of there being two types of Obliterators, the ranged ones (sans close combat options) and then more of a close combat obliterator with all the different close combar weapons as morhpable options. SImply the lesser of the two maybe the only ones capable of doing the whole FOC jumping.
aka_mythos wrote:]The notion is that different HQ choices make specific cult untis troops... if that holds true the implication would be that obliterators representing the Iron Warriors to a degree could be a troop or pseudo-troop choice for them.
WOOT!!!! I know we're wishlisting, but I'll double down on that!
I'm inclined to believe they'd be more of the pseudo-troop... all the benefits of being a troop choice while not filling those FOC slots. There is also the implication of there being two types of Obliterators, the ranged ones (sans close combat options) and then more of a close combat obliterator with all the different close combar weapons as morhpable options. SImply the lesser of the two maybe the only ones capable of doing the whole FOC jumping.
To bad we didn't have more info. It's hard to talk about anything at this point, with out devolving into Wish listing and speculation. lol
Lockark wrote:To bad we didn't have more info. It's hard to talk about anything at this point, with out devolving into Wish listing and speculation. lol
Yeah! Keep the wishlisting out of my perfectly respectable rumor thread.
Lockark wrote:To bad we didn't have more info. It's hard to talk about anything at this point, with out devolving into Wish listing and speculation. lol
Yeah! Keep the wishlisting out of my perfectly respectable rumor thread.
lol, yah I know the irony of that statement. But I figured it was worth mentioning less this one get's locked like the last ones.
Sgt.Roadkill wrote:While you maybe right and i should wait, I have have very little faith in GW due to the last few Codexes GW has released, (with the exception of the Necron one). I Am still hurting from the last dexes blandness/couple of uber builds and I also HIGHLY doubt if GW will reinstate 0-1 on oblits under any circumstances, once they unlock something through codex rewrites or retcons for an entire army its not usual for them to retcon the 0-1, well not that I've seen. Cult troops are an exception here as GW can never seem to decide where to put them, ofc as oblits are technically cult troops it could be argued that this would fit this pattern to. There may be a difference between Warpsmiths and Warsmiths. I am hoping the former is a member of the Dark Mechnicum rather than chaos techpriest.
And i have never relied on GW spoon feeding me, otherwise I'd damn well not have an Arbite army, floating around.
so um yeah have a nice day!
P.S: in relation to this whole waiting and judging? what the point of being able to comment on a thread about rumours for it if we can't have a minor bitch and be excited/speculate about something at the same time. Good pracitce for the looming presence of a first child
I'd find something that Aaron Dembski-Bowden posted about strict rules dividing up Legions being really silly and copy it here, but I can't really be bothered.
jmurph wrote:Usually the Chaos random tables turn out to be poorly thought out crap. Given that your lord HQ can spawnify on a bad D6 or 2d6 roll, I am guessing this will be about as useful as Possessed currently are. But random = fun, AMIRITE?
If you don't like randomness may I suggest that you don't play a game almost entirely based on dice rolls? Randomness is fine, it just needs to have positives that match any negatives or that the points value is calculated correctly.
Nothing particulary new or unexpected with these rumours, the only really noteworthy one is the release date. Hopefully the early rumours about cult units requireing a special character to become troops was incorrect and all that is required is an HQ with the correct mark. Either way the inclusion of cultists does mean that I can fill out the mandatory troops choices cheaply and keep my 3 squads of Death Guard.
Palindrome wrote:If you don't like randomness may I suggest that you don't play a game almost entirely based on dice rolls? Randomness is fine, it just needs to have positives that match any negatives or that the points value is calculated correctly.
I would suggest there is a difference between dice rolls determining the success of actions in a game, and the randomness of a table which you roll against to determine whether your X hundred point model becomes utterly useless or not for no real reason, for example*.
* I'm not suggesting the table is like that, but you get the idea...
Palindrome wrote:If you don't like randomness may I suggest that you don't play a game almost entirely based on dice rolls? Randomness is fine, it just needs to have positives that match any negatives or that the points value is calculated correctly.
I would suggest there is a difference between dice rolls determining the success of actions in a game, and the randomness of a table which you roll against to determine whether your X hundred point model becomes utterly useless or not for no real reason, for example*.
* I'm not suggesting the table is like that, but you get the idea...
But thats not nessicarily a bad thing if the reward is great enough, or if that x hundred point model is discounted due to the chance that it may kill itself.
GW gamers seem to have an irrational dislike of randomness. This makes even less sense with chaos players.
Palindrome wrote:But thats not nessicarily a bad thing if the reward is great enough, or if that x hundred point model is discounted due to the chance that it may kill itself.
GW gamers seem to have an irrational dislike of randomness.
I play the game to use the models that I like, in the way that I like - as I said, I don't have a problem playing a game with chance, nor do I have a problem with some randomness. However, I do have a problem with the kind of randomness GW seems to be shoehorning into 6th. Randomness doesn;'t work on a D6 system, or in a game as reasonably simple as 40K. If I triggered a D100 random effect in D&D I'd not really have a problem; there is a scope for that built into the game. If my DP loses/wins combat or something and therefore has to roll on some "the gods do/don't like you any more" table, then I'm not going to be happy at all. I don't see why it is needed and I don't really see how it is fun. In a 6-8 turn game it just doesn't gel.
Only upon killing a challenger? Pity, I'd love to kill a model and roll. I play orcs and goblins in fantasy, animosity has trained me against any bad effects!
Palindrome wrote:But thats not nessicarily a bad thing if the reward is great enough, or if that x hundred point model is discounted due to the chance that it may kill itself.
GW gamers seem to have an irrational dislike of randomness.
I play the game to use the models that I like, in the way that I like - as I said, I don't have a problem playing a game with chance, nor do I have a problem with some randomness. However, I do have a problem with the kind of randomness GW seems to be shoehorning into 6th. Randomness doesn;'t work on a D6 system, or in a game as reasonably simple as 40K. If I triggered a D100 random effect in D&D I'd not really have a problem; there is a scope for that built into the game. If my DP loses/wins combat or something and therefore has to roll on some "the gods do/don't like you any more" table, then I'm not going to be happy at all. I don't see why it is needed and I don't really see how it is fun. In a 6-8 turn game it just doesn't gel.
WoC players seem not to mind
Then again they only need a snake eyes to have any ill effects. Everythign else helps out, or is neutral
Personally, I like the random aspect. It lets you get things that would be overpowered if they werent random. Say, roll a d6, and if you roll a 6, your daemon prince gets 10 attacks at initiative 10 ap1 reroll to hit and wound. On a 1-5 you turn into jelly. I'd play that, because it has the chance to be SUPER OP, BUT it's okay and not cheesy because it's not guaranteed. (obv not that exact rule, but it illustrates what I'm going for with a random chance at something really good)
As far as the Dragon goes, I'm super pumped about it. All you fluff literalists... stop hating. If you had it your way where they stuck to the same old fluff forever, there would never be any change in the game, and never any inovation, and nothing ever new. It's good for new things to come, and if they stick to the old fluff then nothing new ever can be introduced.
Then again they only need a snake eyes to have any ill effects. Everythign else helps out, or is neutral
I don't play WHFB, so have no idea how the system there works. Nor, frankly, do I really know how the random systems work in 6th (since I have not played a game using 6th yet), or in the upcoming CSM dex (since it is just a substantial twinkle in the internet's eye at the moment). Just commenting on conjecture.
Palindrome wrote:But thats not nessicarily a bad thing if the reward is great enough, or if that x hundred point model is discounted due to the chance that it may kill itself.
That's ridiculously hard to balance. GW already has issues in this area.
Palindrome wrote:GW gamers seem to have an irrational dislike of randomness. This makes even less sense with chaos players.
\
Because Chaos players are bad players? In any game where variance is involved, the first thing a good player will do is lower the variance. I'd rather take reliable Plague Marines than chance on a good roll for Possessed.
Not to mention having a single dice roll having a huge impact on the game (like turning a 300p model or unit into a spawn) is just bad game design.
Really NOT liking the idea of some sort of mechanical dragon flyer thing. It sounds stupid and garish. If need be i will take old parts and some GS and make my own more fitting replacement.
Not happy about the release date either. I refuse to pay 70$ for a rule book so i am holding out for the starter. Nor do i really care for the idea that my HQ could roll poorly and get transformed into worthless gak. Lots of people dont like playing orks because of the randomness and making chaos more like Orks is a bad idea IMHO.
NO DEMONS. What is this GAK. This seems like a ploy to make you buy Codex Chaos Demons so that you can continue to use all the shiney demon models you own. There will be Lots of tooth nashing from the chaos players i know.
Otherwise the rumors sound good. I really would not mind that much if cult troops were unlocked by different HQ. This sounds like a great idea. It would help to define armies so that all those people who play one god would really be representing for that god instead of players using slannesh sorcerer with plague marines just to min max for the greatest efficiency.
Defilers getting tougher would be a huge plus. Warsmiths = Yes please. Dark Apostles, love the idea and its about time. Cultists and a new demon engine? I really like the idea of cultists and as long as the demon engine has decent rules (non pyrovore like rules) this sounds awesome.
Right now i am at a make it or break it point with GW. If Chaos is a well written dex which is not OP but not weak sauce i can see staying in the game. I have really enjoyed the game but for now all the price hikes, poorly written codex (nids) etc. have left a bad taste in my mouth. Hopefully they pull through or else i am going to Infinity or another cheaper system.
NO DEMONS. What is this GAK. This seems like a ploy to make you buy Codex Chaos Demons so that you can continue to use all the shiney demon models you own. There will be Lots of tooth nashing from the chaos players i know.
Sorry to sound Mr Negative, but who really used generic daemons anyways? I mean ok the odd Greater Daemon here and there but I doubt a massive amount of chaos players will gnash their teeth
sennacherib wrote:NO DEMONS. What is this GAK. This seems like a ploy to make you buy Codex Chaos Demons so that you can continue to use all the shiney demon models you own. There will be Lots of tooth nashing from the chaos players i know.
Well...yes. Is this a bad thing? So you need to buy one new codex. Yet all lesser and greater daemons in the daemon codex are better than the ones in the current CSM book.
NO DEMONS. What is this GAK. This seems like a ploy to make you buy Codex Chaos Demons so that you can continue to use all the shiney demon models you own. There will be Lots of tooth nashing from the chaos players i know.
Sorry to sound Mr Negative, but who really used generic daemons anyways? I mean ok the odd Greater Daemon here and there but I doubt a massive amount of chaos players will gnash their teeth
Lets see. I have two demon prince, a greater demon and ten lesser demons in my army.
I play with a dozen or so dedicated chaos players. They all have substantial numbers of lesser demons and demon princes in their collections.
In fact i think i only know 1 chaos player who does not own a single demon model and since he has a small collection, and i am not sure i have seen it all i cant swear by this.
Just saying.
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Cerebrium wrote:
sennacherib wrote:NO DEMONS. What is this GAK. This seems like a ploy to make you buy Codex Chaos Demons so that you can continue to use all the shiney demon models you own. There will be Lots of tooth nashing from the chaos players i know.
Well...yes. Is this a bad thing? So you need to buy one new codex. Yet all lesser and greater daemons in the daemon codex are better than the ones in the current CSM book.
This is true, but what if i want to use some other dex as an allie instead of always being forced to take codex demons.
For those upset about the "Eye of the Gods" table, and wondering how it will work, I'd imagine it's a 2D6 system, just like fantasy, but with a few exceptions. A roll of snake-eyes will probably cause Spawn-dom, 7 will have no effect, 3-6 will have +1 to varying stat markers, and 8-12 will grant other bonuses, such as causing fear, becoming a prince, or getting an increased invul save and stubborn (together). It's 1 negative effect on the chart, one where nothing happens at all, and everything else is an improvement. Most people in fantasy also don't see more than 1 or 2 rolls on the chart, per model. May be different with monsters, walkers and all challenges granting it.
Palindrome wrote:So if people design their armies for fluff rather than some 'optimised' build they are bad players?
I have a nice fluffy Nurgle force; 7 CSM in each squad, all on foot. Doesn't mean that I should be forced to randomly roll effects for my army, or have random powers instead of the ones I buy for them, etc, just because someone thinks that chaos should be more random, and the game should be more "fun" than involve any kind of skill at all.
The gifts of chaos are earned over a lifetime of service, not handed out randomly.
Palindrome wrote:So if people design their armies for fluff rather than some 'optimised' build they are bad players?
I have a nice fluffy Nurgle force; 7 CSM in each squad, all on foot. Doesn't mean that I should be forced to randomly roll effects for my army, or have random powers instead of the ones I buy for them, etc, just because someone thinks that chaos should be more random, and the game should be more "fun" than involve any kind of skill at all.
Where did I say that everything should be random? I was responding to the suggestion that people who take options with random effects are somehow worse players than those that don't. They may be worse in a purely competative sense, but that is a very narrow perspective.
His Master's Voice wrote:
A player that does not play to win is not a good player. So in that sense, yes, they are bad players.
No, they are not. A bad player is someone who cheats or in someway disrupts the game. A good player is one who fosters a good atmosphere; playing to win doesn't come into it.
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pretre wrote:
Actually, I could probably use that as a synopsis for more N&R threads.
All threads actually, at at least most, given that there is little to actually discuss at the moment.
This warms my heart a little... been waiting for some more Chaos rumors... just wish there was any word on possible biker army builds for Chaos like you can do with the present C:SM
Palindrome wrote:Where did I say that everything should be random?
I didn't. However, GW are making more and more random effects in their rules.
I was responding to the suggestion that people who take options with random effects are somehow worse players than those that don't.
I was commenting on the fact that applying some super random factor to everything is great... for those who want random effects. I personally don't, and I suspect that the majority are not really that thrilled about it either.
They may be worse in a purely competative sense, but that is a very narrow perspective.
I am perhaps as far from competetive a player as you can get but I have little interest in playing a game where tactics and skill take a back seat to randomness... again, speculation on the random factor that will be applied
NO DEMONS. What is this GAK. This seems like a ploy to make you buy Codex Chaos Demons so that you can continue to use all the shiney demon models you own. There will be Lots of tooth nashing from the chaos players i know.
Sorry to sound Mr Negative, but who really used generic daemons anyways? I mean ok the odd Greater Daemon here and there but I doubt a massive amount of chaos players will gnash their teeth
Lets see. I have two demon prince, a greater demon and ten lesser demons in my army.
I play with a dozen or so dedicated chaos players. They all have substantial numbers of lesser demons and demon princes in their collections.
In fact i think i only know 1 chaos player who does not own a single demon model and since he has a small collection, and i am not sure i have seen it all i cant swear by this.
Just saying.
Well my comment was mainly discluding Daemon Princes. I would think that the no daemons was in reference to the greater and lessers, Princes as HQ is more of a CSM thing so I would assume they would be there to stay.
And I guess it's just me, but I think I'd rather use the daemon codex stats instead of a base stat line and no mark daemon stats
SilverMK2 wrote:
I didn't. However, GW are making more and more random effects in their rules.
Did you ever play RT or 2nd ed?
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pretre wrote:
You know what's not subjective though? Staying on topic. Take it somewhere else.
As it happens that is also subjective given that a significant part of these new rumours concern a new(ish) mechanic which will have an unpredicatable effect. On topic or off topic, that is the question.
His Master's Voice wrote:
A player that does not play to win is not a good player. So in that sense, yes, they are bad players.
No, they are not. A bad player is someone who cheats or in someway disrupts the game. A good player is one who fosters a good atmosphere; playing to win doesn't come into it.
No that is a bad sport. A good sport is a person who fosters a good atmospher and says GG at the end of a game. A bad sport says GG turn 2 when you role a 1 on your daemon sword even though the game isn't completely decided yet.
A bad player is someone who is bad at playing the game, this doesn't mean that a good player always wins. A good player can play a crappy list for fun or play a supper powered list and lose to another supper power list. He does however know tatics and if he wants to win he wont opt for a codex that wont often win.
Hence you are not actually argueing about skill of player you're discussing whether chaos will see play. Yes as purly casual a completely high risk high reward army can be fun, however it doesn't matter how nice of a guy you are, One will rarely see a good gamer field a HRHR army at a tournament if he wants to win.
protonhunter wrote: One will never rarely see a good gamer field a HRHR army at a tournament if he wants to win.
Tournaments are a tiny part of the game. I haven't played in a tournament for 6-7 years, and that was FoW.
I also didn't suggest that everything would be random, or even that critical events should be random, just that there should be sufficent unpredictability to make Chaos Marines more than Imperial Marines with spikes.
Granted, tourney play isn't everything, but idk about you guys but I have a friend who stopped playing because he never won. yes he'd dust off his Tau every once and a while to play but it wasn't as fun when he just got curb stomped every time by a supper broken list. Even casual games weren't as fun because he knew he was almost definitly going to loose. Simple fact is that HRHR type armies lead to a great deal of frustrating situations where a good player will say, wait why am I fielding this army when other armies will give me worlds more consistent results.
To the degree of randomness, I say that's what psychers are for. Why make our infantry recieve random buffs when they can get their own unique rules. Also I'm thinking about what we lose because of this randomness. Don't think for a second that they can just give us this role for free it's also reflected in our points cost and balancing for other rules given to the models. If we get this random buff/curse it muscles out other cool abilities because of lack of space on a unit.
High rist high reward, Ie, they will sometimes do great but at other times totally crap out. Think of lootas but to the extream like if you roled a 1 every one of your guys takes a Str 3 hit, but if you roled a 6 you got 5 shots (2 being nothing and so on up the later)
High rist high reward, Ie, they will sometimes do great but at other times totally crap out. Think of lootas but to the extream like if you roled a 1 every one of your guys takes a Str 3 hit, but if you roled a 6 you got 5 shots (2 being nothing and so on up the later)
Aha, you used it earlier in the post, I just didn't make the connection. I gotcha.
Chaos = lack of order which is best represented in game by random events or mechanics which give unpredicatable results.
As opposed to open defiance and rebellion against the Emperor's 'order' and the Imperium of Man?
You're telling me that the rebels should clearly have their entire ruleset riddled with random fething events to represent 'chaos'? Isn't the fact they're in open rebellion against the established order of humanity sufficient enough to warrant their name, hmm?
Chaos =/= Random Events.
Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to get their head on straight. Any system that can potentially wipe out a 300-400 point model with a random dice roll allocated as a 'reward' for doing what it's supposed to do is a badly designed system. Why do you think Possessed currently are used by next to no one? When you could purchase their abilities and their schtick was that they had so much more flexibility than every other unit in the codex they were popular. Even in the Codex before that - the IA articles gave them a FIXED ability for the cult legions and as such they were more popular then.
The moment it went to a random ability rolled AFTER deployment they became good for nothing but spare bits for other squads.
Now is as good as time as any to reiterate that GW does not want a balanced uber competetive game. They want you telling stories with miniatures on the battlefield. Random charts goes a long way with this.
Palindrome wrote:So if people design their armies for fluff rather than some 'optimised' build they are bad players?
A player that does not play to win is not a good player. So in that sense, yes, they are bad players.
Thing is, being a bad player isn't a bad thing if winning is not your primary goal.
False on so many levels.
I agree that the possessed is a great example of a unit that fell by the wayside because of its random nature. When you build a army list it is often designed with an endpoint in mind. When you purchase possessed a lot of the time you end up paying for an ability that you will never put to use. Chaos dreads are another great example. Too many times i have seen my freinds loose tournaments because their dread went fire frenzy when they wanted it to charge and visa versa. Randomness is already part of the game via the dice. If the only changes that happened that were negative were on snake eyes, and the rest were either neutral or beneficial, i wouldnt mind this system much.
Also not too happy about the lack of marked terminator but i can get over that if that is the route that GW takes.
Random statement is random. Look, this is pretty simple - games are competitions. While the De Coubertin principle is nice and all, all games are played to win. Sure, you may get other things from playing the game besides winning, and those benefits are absolutely valid, but that doesn't make you a good player if you're not winning to begin with. That's why an Olympic swimmer from Mozambique gets a smile and a pat on the back, but no one in their right mind would call his a good swimmer in that particular competition.
Agreed.
However good does not equal always trying to win. I know many good players who often win in tournaments, who will take units just for fun. They are lessening the likely hood that they will win by doing so but they still enjoy the game. I win tournaments and when i game with noobs, i will tailor my list so that they have a greater chance of winning, and will sometimes throw them units so that they have something to munch on. Some of the best games (fun wise) were games i lost. Winning is not everything nor does winning dictate what a good gamer is. Gaming is about having fun. Its about spending time together, model building, etc. Being a good gamer is defined by a whole variety of traits besides just winning. If winning were all that mattered WAAC gamers would be a lot more popular with their peers.
To use the sports analogy i would point out that Lance Armstrong sometimes competes in mountain bike races. He is not going to win under most conditions, does this mean that he is not a good bike racer.
Not the whole "It's a dice game it's supposed to the random!" canard again. Ugh, really.
Back on topic, I hope they do a good job, since this being the first codex in 6th puts some pressure to see how they'll develop the edition.
If they have sound unit pricing, fun special rules, cover all bases (A little bit of anti-air, effective CC and shooty options, multiple viable army builds), I'll be happy enough.
If they gorram fix Kharn, sorcerers and the marks/icon system, I'll set off fireworks. Not kidding at all here.
. Why do you think Possessed currently are used by next to no one?
Because even with their base stats they are overpriced? It's not always because they are random, but because they aren't priced right normally.
I mean look at wychs, and combat drugs in general, nobody picks them just for their ability to roll on the chart!
The possessed are more expensive vanguard, and they only really get +1 strength and a 5++ to go with it, and more expensive marks that makes it harder to justify taking them.
Crappy Pricing =/= Random Events.
Even a good random roll can be justified if they are priced right, Chaos Dreads had one more attack and were 5 points cheaper than a standard dread (If you took a multi-melta like a standard dread) That is not cost effective! Not to mention unable to be transported quickly with a pod just made them worse.
Im sorry, but did any goddamn chaos player ask for these things? I feel like the writer just blocked his ears with his hands and yelled lala-I-Can't-Hear-You-My-Idea-Is-Better-Than-Anybody-Else's.
And if the only way I can get PM, and 1K sons as troops is from a special character...someone is gonna die.
Is there a way that the main page can flash a symbol when actual rumors are being discussed. That way I don't have to skip through a bunch lame bickering.
yellowfever wrote:Is there a way that the main page can flash a symbol when actual rumors are being discussed. That way I don't have to skip through a bunch lame bickering.
No. But the op or a mod might update the main post or title when new rumors appear. You can hope that happens anyway.
Blitza da warboy wrote:
And if the only way I can get PM, and 1K sons as troops is from a special character...someone is gonna die.
Which would be quite interesting, considering that most tournaments' rules forbid special characters. Perhaps a warlord with certain mark also unlocks cult troops? We will find out soon...
I love the whole Cult thing, when I started, you had to pick a God and stick with it, none of this mix and match. I hate mix and match (it was like playing the CCG, Vs, and everyone just took whatever was the awsome and tossed the whole theme of the game out the window)
Now I will miss deamons not being in the army, I bought some Deamonettes and like using them. But I can get over it.
Not a fan of random effect if I kill something. I mean if I take a named character and it just turns into something else, then I feel like it was a waste of my time to even use it.
Now lets hope losing the power fist means the Oblits are cheaper.
Random effects...eh, had to deal with them before. Been playing Chaos since near the end of 2nd edition/start of 3rd. Just more of a return to things IMO. Could be fun, could be really bad depending on the tables. Not going to grumble and moan further not knowing the exact details.
I do like the return of Cult-specific list. I just shudder when I see Khorne and Slaanesh fighting side by side with no problems. I am a pure Emperor's Children player myself and I just hate the last dex with a burning passion as it made so many of my cool models and conversions useless. I think I played one or maybe two battles with them in 5th edition.
What I do dislike, and this is something creeping up in every codex, is that in order to get a certain build for your army you need to include a special character. I really sincerely HATE that. I want a vanilla HQ choice to do that not Mr. Fluffy-bottoms Whatever. I do hope we get vanilla HQ choices and not special chars.
I too like the cult specific list, and i dont mind having to buy a special named character to play it (ducks when Blitza da warboy takes note of this) . Incidentally, someone (danant) said that most tournis wont allow named characters. I have never played in such an event and i have played in tons of tournis. I think that was 4th ed stuff your referencing and even then they allowed it.
As long as this dex is tough enough to play in the current meta without being OP and has multiple builds, i will be really happy.
BramGaunt wrote:I'm staying with September for the Starter Set. August for CSM. We'll know in 1 week, anyway.
If the books were really dispatched to warehouses around the world they won't sit there for long.
That's what I believe as well.
BTW here the old Epic Chaos flyer called Doom Wing:
A daring prediction:
TheDarkGeneral wrote:I was recently told that the new Chaos Daemon flyer (along with Tyranid and Tau) get released in about two weeks along with new White Dwarf!
BramGaunt wrote:I'm staying with September for the Starter Set. August for CSM. We'll know in 1 week, anyway.
If the books were really dispatched to warehouses around the world they won't sit there for long.
That's what I believe as well.
A daring prediction:
TheDarkGeneral wrote:I was recently told that the new Chaos Daemon flyer (along with Tyranid and Tau) get released in about two weeks along with new White Dwarf!
I prefer this schedule XD. Hope this is the real one.
BramGaunt wrote:I'm staying with September for the Starter Set. August for CSM. We'll know in 1 week, anyway.
If the books were really dispatched to warehouses around the world they won't sit there for long.
That's what I believe as well.
BTW here the old Epic Chaos flyer called Doom Wing:
A daring prediction:
TheDarkGeneral wrote:I was recently told that the new Chaos Daemon flyer (along with Tyranid and Tau) get released in about two weeks along with new White Dwarf!
Steve steveson wrote:Interesting, that dose however raise two questions.
1) when is the 40k box set out if this is september and
2) what will be out in august....
Box set rumoured to be out September to compete with the Fantasy boat game (can't remember the name), new fliers out for August to reinforce other armies, so I expect Chaos/Dark Angel Codex out October/November.
Loads of cool stuff supposed to be in the box set though!
Having a proper Warsmith would be nice. Right now my friends have agreed to a House rule where i can take a MoTF as a Warsmith for my IW army.
Not having Cult Terminator smight suck, btu it depends on what they have the marks of chaos do. If MoN gives you +1 T and FNP for example then using that is as good as having Plague Termies.
I'm curious about the Cultists. i would have through they woudl leave those out to get people to take IG allies instead.
Really Really Really hope the new dex is out in august. Would be able to get the book for my birthday and then go back to college and not have to worry about buying tons of new models.
So anyone have any idea what the new Chaos Dragon flyer does? What does the rumour that it's nasty against enemy flyers mean? Does it just have some good weaponry and the vector dancer special rule or does it have some supa speshul Ward abilities that all enemy flyers take 10 S10 hits every turn while its on the table?
Praxiss wrote:Having a proper Warsmith would be nice. Right now my friends have agreed to a House rule where i can take a MoTF as a Warsmith for my IW army.
Not having Cult Terminator smight suck, btu it depends on what they have the marks of chaos do. If MoN gives you +1 T and FNP for example then using that is as good as having Plague Termies.
I'm curious about the Cultists. i would have through they woudl leave those out to get people to take IG allies instead.
I was a bit surprised as well. They probably had the molds modeled for some other project and decided to give it a go. I wonder what extra rule they'll get, though. Infiltrate? Ability to take chaos marks?
And yes, if the marks received a good reworking, cult terminators can be in the game even if they don't have a specific entry.
Therion wrote:So anyone have any idea what the new Chaos Dragon flyer does? What does the rumour that it's nasty against enemy flyers mean? Does it just have some good weaponry and the vector dancer special rule or does it have some supa speshul Ward abilities that all enemy flyers take 10 S10 hits every turn while its on the table?
Early rumours said there was some artwork of it tearing a Valkyre out of the sky. Perhaps some Vector Strike type ability?
yellowfever wrote:Is there a way that the main page can flash a symbol when actual rumors are being discussed. That way I don't have to skip through a bunch lame bickering.
No. But the op or a mod might update the main post or title when new rumors appear. You can hope that happens anyway.
Therion wrote:So anyone have any idea what the new Chaos Dragon flyer does? What does the rumour that it's nasty against enemy flyers mean? Does it just have some good weaponry and the vector dancer special rule or does it have some supa speshul Ward abilities that all enemy flyers take 10 S10 hits every turn while its on the table?
Early rumours said there was some artwork of it tearing a Valkyre out of the sky. Perhaps some Vector Strike type ability?
I would guess that, as it is a Dragon, it will have some sort of special rule which allows it to assault fliers in some way.
Chaos = lack of order which is best represented in game by random events or mechanics which give unpredicatable results.
As opposed to open defiance and rebellion against the Emperor's 'order' and the Imperium of Man?
You're telling me that the rebels should clearly have their entire ruleset riddled with random fething events to represent 'chaos'? Isn't the fact they're in open rebellion against the established order of humanity sufficient enough to warrant their name, hmm?
They arent called Rebel Space Marines. They're called Chaos Space Marines.
cha·os
[key-os]
noun
1.
a state of utter confusion or disorder; a total lack of organization or order.
This is copied straight from the latest Rogue Trader book:
Chaos does not mean Random When daemons manifest in real space, they often appear little more than killing machines, seeking to destroy and keep destroying for as long as they are able. However, this doesn’t mean a daemonic incursion is without real meaning or goals. Individual daemons may run rampant, but often the attack has a greater purpose. Game Masters can use this to present any number of challenges to characters in a Rogue Trader campaign.
Even if we use "chaos" instead "Chaos" to look for some greater understanding of how they should play "chaos" the word does not mean random, it means disorganized, it means confusion... GW choice of the word "chaos" is more in refrence to its existential meaning of the formlessness that predated the existence of the ordered universe. Chaos is not random, its formless, its confusing in its apparent disorganization. It is represenetative of the many seemingly disparate factions that fight each other but can form a unified threat.
If these rumours are true, then this will be the most underwhelming thing I've ever seen since Jimmy Carter's inaugaration speech!!! (I was a young lad then)
The absence of cult terminators is one thing, but as usual, the CSM codex will be all the legions and gods crammed into one book, whilst the Imperium get their usual one hundred 'dexes of Black Templars( probably the most boring chapter out there) Blood Angels, Sisters, Wolves, Dark Angels etc etc.
And as usual, a 10,000 year old Chaos veteran will still be inferior to his loyalist counterpart who is barely out of nappies/diapers!!!
And as usual, a 10,000 year old Chaos veteran will still be inferior to his loyalist counterpart who is barely out of nappies/diapers!!!
To be fair they aren't really 10,000 years old. Time just flows differently in the warp. I don't know why every Chaos player has this sense of entitlement that their standard guys should have better combat stats than loyalists. We could easily make the opposite argument that CSM should actually be inferior since their present day recruits are wacky malformed daemonculaba clone babies with various defects.
I look forward to the Chaos release. It's got a lot of potential and I hope that if they've left the Daemons for good they're going to expand heavily on the human auxilia, mutant and daemon engine side.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:If these rumours are true, then this will be the most underwhelming thing I've ever seen since Jimmy Carter's inaugaration speech!!! (I was a young lad then)
The absence of cult terminators is one thing, but as usual, the CSM codex will be all the legions and gods crammed into one book, whilst the Imperium get their usual one hundred 'dexes of Black Templars( probably the most boring chapter out there) Blood Angels, Sisters, Wolves, Dark Angels etc etc.
And as usual, a 10,000 year old Chaos veteran will still be inferior to his loyalist counterpart who is barely out of nappies/diapers!!!
I agree with Therion. They haven't all been alive for 10,000 years in their perspective. For them, it may have been 10 minutes, 10 years or 1,000 years.
pretre wrote:They haven't all been alive for 10,000 years in their perspective. For them, it may have been 10 minutes, 10 years or 1,000 years.
Which puts some of them ahead of Chapter Masters in terms of experience. Add to that the fact that the Warp is literally Hell and you end up with an army that may have archaic weapons and armour patterns (and in a setting where these are considered superior to more modern weapons it makes me scratch my head why they literally get no benefit from it) and a lot more combat experience than their loyalist counterparts and several of them had fought in the presence and against the tactics of the Primarchs themselves.
To be honest, if Cultists/Mutants are included I should hope the CSMs become more of an elite sort of choice. So people can field hordes of cultists with a solid core of elites or go for an all elite strike force option.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And as usual, a 10,000 year old Chaos veteran will still be inferior to his loyalist counterpart who is barely out of nappies/diapers!!!
I agree entirely with your last sentence.
By the flow of time in normal time and space, he maybe 10,000 years old but to the individual Chaos veteran, the Heresy could just as easily have been yesterday as it could have been a 1000 years ago. I agree with the sentiment that Chaos marines in general are more veteraned and longer lived than loyalists, but that it isn't this great gulf of difference between the two. The big 4 retained some of the greatest degree of cohesiveness after the Heresy and this is why their basic troops are Elites. Meanwhile the other legions had fragmenting in which those with enough power or the sentiment that they deserved it, went off and formed up under a warlord. Once again these are the "elites" and veterans who insulate themselve and build a power base by inducting mutants, cultists, ex-loyalist marines in to their ranks, thus why the basic troop choices better represent those things.
DarkStarSabre wrote:To be honest, if Cultists/Mutants are included I should hope the CSMs become more of an elite sort of choice. So people can field hordes of cultists with a solid core of elites or go for an all elite strike force option.
It could certainly be interesting; quite often in fluff individual CSM will command significant personal cultist forces, even entire planets or systems.
Anything new on the BOLS post about chaos that they just posted?? BOLS is blocked at work for me. Not sure if thats fu pah to ask, if so my bad. If not could someone update the thread with the news that they provided?? Please? and thank you.
A link to the old thread might be prudenent so we can see the old rumers. A complete inclusion of them might just make the OP clutered. NTM this way we can see what the newest rumers are.
pretre wrote:I'm going to go with Flying and some sort of Template (fire breath) attack. Look! I'm a rumor monger.
That was just a little childish. A lot of people that bring rumors are hit with far too much criticism. In a realm where GW doesn't want to release any information, it can be tough and even sometimes risky to release any information, and sometimes the best that a rumor monger can hope for is a bunch of flakk for bringing what they've found to the table. Show a modicum of gratitude, else the internet rumor system will dry up as rumor mongers don't want crap in their face when they share their little secrets.
Speaking of secrets, I managed to speak to my own rumor source a little. Here's what he had to say...
[rumor]
There'll be a new terminator kit, 2 new named SC's (one is referenced in a BL book, though it's yet to be seen if it's a BL character or merely a reference), and the chaos flier (there may be more than one) is more in line with the FW Hellblade/Helltalon kits. When I asked about the 'daemon mechanical dragon' he said 'oh, so it's like a flying soulgrinder?' Either my source didn't know much about this particular kit, or he was alluding to it being a Chaos Daemons flier instead of a Chaos Marines one.
[/rumor]
[speculation]
I didn't get any release date information. I only got the quip, "It's about to rain." when I first asked about CSM rumors that he might have for me. So far, that seems to be true with the other rumors that have been released.
What's exciting here is that there's a new Termie kit coming, and remember that 'no cult terminators' doesn't mean that cult troops may not be able to be upgraded with terminator armor. There simply may not be a separate entry for every kind of Terminator (ie, Noise Marines, Noise Marine Terminators, Khorne Berzerkers, Khorne Berzerker Terminators, etc). It'd make more sense just to squeeze the Terminator and other special weapons into one entry.
My source didn't seem to know a lot about the flying mechanical dragon. I even used the term 'harbinger' and that didn't ring a bell. He first told me that it would be called 'something-dragon' because of things like the Void Dragon (too many dragons?). It felt like I was giving *him* that rumor. I told him that the 'dragon' part was just a descriptor, and then we said at the same time 'like a flying Soul Grinder', and he dismissed it as something more likely to be seen in a Chaos Daemons Codex. What's important to note here is that even before I mentioned this, he mentioned that the flyer would be more in line with the Hellblade or Helltalon Forgeworld models. Honestly, this makes more sense to me. Leave the flying monstrous creatures to the Chaos Daemons in a White Dwarf entry. Chaos needs something mechanical, aeronautically sound, and sleek.
Lastly is the tidbit about the Special Characters. This goes against some other early rumors about 'no new special characters'. A while back, when I mentioned this to my source, he explained that it's more likely that there won't be any new special characters in the first wave of models, but that they'll come out with new ones in a subsequent wave of models (think of how the Necron special characters were spread out).
[/speculation]
I'm pretty excited about what could be coming. I'm still hesitant about the Eye of the Gods rules and it's not because of their randomness, it's because of how they're employed. If you get them in a challenge or against MC's or Walkers, your HQ has to be BEASTLY. We're talking about an infantry model that can take on a Walker or Monstrous Creature and WIN. This either means a lot of points sunk into an HQ, or some special rules that will give him an edge that other players will not be happy about.
And that means that these HQ's will probably be targetted by ranged firepower before they can get into close combat. Also, with challenge shenanigans that can occur, it's likely that your character will be ignored, left to fight non-character models (which he will probably slay) if the rewards of Eye of the Gods is potent enough. If the Eye of the Gods benefits ARE NOT potent enough, then the opposing player can just feed you some P. Fist sarges and let their own HQ's trounce whatever other squad you throw your HQ in.
Finally, there's the issue of Codex Creep. Let's say that with the Eye of the Gods benefits, and HQ's being awesome in challenges in the CSM Codex, that just when CSM comes out, we're ruling the challenge realm. Well, it'll just be a matter of time before another Codex comes out that makes all those rules pointless for CSM because they'll be better at Challenges and have better walkers and MC's that will make the Eye of the Gods stuff pointless to try and pursue. Then there's a chunk of a Codex that withers away and becomes irrelevant, exactly what has happened with the current CSM Codex.
For these reasons I'm apprehensive. It's less about the randomness and more about the strategic implications. Obviously, it's still too soon to draw any conclusions, and I'll be going in with both eyes open and a hope that the end product is better than I expect.
drbored wrote:That was just a little childish. A lot of people that bring rumors are hit with far too much criticism. In a realm where GW doesn't want to release any information, it can be tough and even sometimes risky to release any information, and sometimes the best that a rumor monger can hope for is a bunch of flakk for bringing what they've found to the table. Show a modicum of gratitude, else the internet rumor system will dry up as rumor mongers don't want crap in their face when they share their little secrets.
First off, of course it was childish, it was a joke. Secondly, I support rumor mongers providing real information and appreciate them for it. I don't appreciate folks who bring garbage to the table and want us to think it is gourmet fare.
Speaking of secrets, I managed to speak to my own rumor source a little. Here's what he had to say...
I'll add this to the OP and the Ongoing Rumor Tracking thread.
drbored wrote:That was just a little childish. A lot of people that bring rumors are hit with far too much criticism. In a realm where GW doesn't want to release any information, it can be tough and even sometimes risky to release any information, and sometimes the best that a rumor monger can hope for is a bunch of flakk for bringing what they've found to the table. Show a modicum of gratitude, else the internet rumor system will dry up as rumor mongers don't want crap in their face when they share their little secrets.
First off, of course it was childish, it was a joke. Secondly, I support rumor mongers providing real information and appreciate them for it. I don't appreciate folks who bring garbage to the table and want us to think it is gourmet fare.
Thanks for the clarification. I apologize if I seemed hostile in my retort, I've seen too many jerks barfing on the rumor mongers (the good ones) that stretch their necks out to bring us the information that I'm currently addicted to!
What really does irk me though is when a self proclaimed rumormonger hits the rumor reverb button without doing proper research or reading through some of the older rumor stuff. It's like they intentionally go to page 10 of a forum website, read through the first posts of a locked 100 page rumor post, and then bring all that up pretending it's fresh material.
drbored wrote:What really does irk me though is when a self proclaimed rumormonger hits the rumor reverb button without doing proper research or reading through some of the older rumor stuff. It's like they intentionally go to page 10 of a forum website, read through the first posts of a locked 100 page rumor post, and then bring all that up pretending it's fresh material.
That is kind of annoying. They try to lend credibility to their garbage by rehashing someone else's. Yuck.
drbored wrote:
Speaking of secrets, I managed to speak to my own rumor source a little. Here's what he had to say...
I don't buy new Terminators for one second, unless it's something like assault Terminators for Chaos. The current Chaos Terminator kit is good and fairly recent.
Blitza da warboy wrote:
And if the only way I can get PM, and 1K sons as troops is from a special character...someone is gonna die.
Which would be quite interesting, considering that most tournaments' rules forbid special characters. Perhaps a warlord with certain mark also unlocks cult troops? We will find out soon...
Well, if a warlord that would have a mark of nurgle would be able to unlock plague marines as troops...I shall be very happy then
But If I need typhus to unlock my plague marines who are from a different chapter/warband....
sennacherib wrote:(ducks when Blitza da warboy takes note of this)
Nah, I respect other peoples opinions in this forum (unless its in the off topic and involves naaziiis in spaaace!) Anyways, the problem that I have with special characters is that I like to have a fluffy army. However I cannot have a fluffy army if it involves me having to use Typhus or Ahriman or Kharn or Lucius. Another problem would be is if they would suck...like Fabius. Or if they are overpriced; like Huron.
However since none of us (well, almost) have seen any proof...there is still hope!
Blitza da warboy wrote:Anyways, the problem that I have with special characters is that I like to have a fluffy army. However I cannot have a fluffy army if it involves me having to use Typhus or Ahriman or Kharn or Lucius. Another problem would be is if they would suck...like Fabius. Or if they are overpriced; like Huron.
However since none of us (well, almost) have seen any proof...there is still hope!
And don't make dreadnoughts crazed again!
I'm hoping some wires got crossed and you can just use a Lord with the appropriate mark to take any given cult troops as Troops rather than elites, like the 3rd edition codex. If you can't that's a bummer, but I'm hoping!
Also, Dreadnoughts better still be crazed! How being crazed manifests itself in-game should be different though. I like that they have an unpredictable element in them, but I'd like it to have more positives than negatives.
drbored wrote:That was just a little childish. A lot of people that bring rumors are hit with far too much criticism. In a realm where GW doesn't want to release any information, it can be tough and even sometimes risky to release any information, and sometimes the best that a rumor monger can hope for is a bunch of flakk for bringing what they've found to the table. Show a modicum of gratitude, else the internet rumor system will dry up as rumor mongers don't want crap in their face when they share their little secrets.
1.) You attacked the wrong person.
2.) We currently live in a time of mass fake rumours, see ghost21. People with no rumour post record claiming good sources for Black templars in May 2012 and Eldar vs. Necrons in the starter box and 5 pages of details of the new CSM Codex. A lot of this is deliberately made up to confuse us in times where real rumours are scarce. This made 75hastings69 almost rage quit the rumour business. No idea if GW itself distributes false rumours as well. Casual readers are confused, that's why pretre started a "rumour monger evaluation" thread.
3.) Even Harry got some flak when he dared to suggest a High Elf chariot drawn by White Lions. But his track record now makes him a trusted source. Post reliable rumours and you will also gain this trust.
Brother SRM wrote:Also, Dreadnoughts better still be crazed! How being crazed manifests itself in-game should be different though. I like that they have an unpredictable element in them, but I'd like it to have more positives than negatives.
Chaos Dreadnoughts get the Rage and Rampage special rules. Yay, I fixed them.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And as usual, a 10,000 year old Chaos veteran will still be inferior to his loyalist counterpart who is barely out of nappies/diapers!!!
I agree entirely with your last sentence.
By the flow of time in normal time and space, he maybe 10,000 years old but to the individual Chaos veteran, the Heresy could just as easily have been yesterday as it could have been a 1000 years ago. I agree with the sentiment that Chaos marines in general are more veteraned and longer lived than loyalists, but that it isn't this great gulf of difference between the two. The big 4 retained some of the greatest degree of cohesiveness after the Heresy and this is why their basic troops are Elites. Meanwhile the other legions had fragmenting in which those with enough power or the sentiment that they deserved it, went off and formed up under a warlord. Once again these are the "elites" and veterans who insulate themselve and build a power base by inducting mutants, cultists, ex-loyalist marines in to their ranks, thus why the basic troop choices better represent those things.
It's possible that it could have been 10 years since the siege of terra or 100,000 years for any given CSM depending on how the warp treated him. It can make for a very small gulf of experience, or a very vast one. The big 4 did not retain their cohesion. The Emperor's Children and World Eaters are scattered. Typhus and Ahriman are the only "warlords" of the other two that actively campaign anymore; Magnus and Mortarion really couldn't care less about running the day to day affairs of their legion. The Black Legion is by far the most powerful and organized of the remaining legions. The Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion still operate in a more or less cohesive manner; the Word Bearers to a lesser extent. Finally, cult troops are elite because they have better stats than undivided CSM.
drbored wrote:
Speaking of secrets, I managed to speak to my own rumor source a little. Here's what he had to say...
I don't buy new Terminators for one second, unless it's something like assault Terminators for Chaos. The current Chaos Terminator kit is good and fairly recent.
Agreed. No way in hell are the current Termies being replaced. If there is a second Termie box it will be something new (Cult Termies, Possessed Termies...?)
One thing that makes August an unlikely release date for the Chaos Marine Codex, is that you can still buy the current one. They've normally withdrawn it by now haven't they?
Flashman wrote:One thing that makes August an unlikely release date for the Chaos Marine Codex, is that you can still buy the current one. They've normally withdrawn it by now haven't they?
I've pretty much only seen that with the really old (3rd ed) codices and full game rulebooks; I've been thinking October but I'm just guessing out loud.
Man, I started playing CSM for their good troop choices. It will suck if I have to take an hq to 'unlock' these troop choices. I like being able to have plague marines to hold objectives, and khorne berzerkers to go kill the guys my opponent has trying to hold his objective. If I want to be able to do this, I'll have to take 2 hqs to unlock them, and then I'll never be able to field a daemon prince hq. The other option would be to have one of them (probably the berzerkers) not count as troops, but then I'd just be contesting the objective that I took from the enemy instead of holding it, which royally feths me.
This codex is their last chance. If it sucks, I'm going back to my 3.5 codex and only playing with friends.
If I want to play in a tourniment, I have four other armies I can choose from. The real clincher will be how allied deamons will work with it. If I have to follow their horrible summoning rules then it just wont be worth it as a cohesive functioning army list.
I have been pretty disappointed with GW ever since the nids dex came out (Robbin Cruddycrap sucks). That killed my interest big time. Since then i have been building up my chaos forces. I am with you Jayden63. Please dont suck GW. Lots of chaos players have waited ages for a good dex, this is your chance to shine.
To say I'm a fan of Chaos is an understatement, as not only have I been playing them since late-2nd, I have the Eye of Horus tattooed onto my neck as the Black Legion are my favourite army
The point is, the 3.5 dex was great! Not only was it competitive, but it allowed you to mix & match (provided the BL were represented) or go all-out fluff which was one of the best aspects of the book
Then the current one came out and I remember picking it up after it had been out for about a year as I took an hiatus from the game and after reading it, I was shocked at how far CSM had fallen, no pun intended
Some of the rumours sound great, others not so much, but all I really want (apart from competitiveness) is the ability to build fluff lists again and if I need to take a SC, I'll be annoyed as hell!
I won't rage quit, as I have other armies to use, but I have several thousand points of Chaos that need to come out of retirement and I am praying to god that GW will allow me to dust them off
It seems everyone is upset that there are not cult termies. I am too, but the Cult's are going to be elites. Shouldn't that mean they are getting buffed? In my mind it seems like the cults are gonna be vet's but better because they have the cult powers. Better special rules or weapons.
Even if they aren't, Arhiman followed by 9 full 1000 sons squads sounds damn bad ass to me.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:If these rumours are true, then this will be the most underwhelming thing I've ever seen since Jimmy Carter's inaugaration speech!!! (I was a young lad then)
The absence of cult terminators is one thing, but as usual, the CSM codex will be all the legions and gods crammed into one book, whilst the Imperium get their usual one hundred 'dexes of Black Templars( probably the most boring chapter out there) Blood Angels, Sisters, Wolves, Dark Angels etc etc.
And as usual, a 10,000 year old Chaos veteran will still be inferior to his loyalist counterpart who is barely out of nappies/diapers!!!
I'm really sick of this. I agree csm should be split like sm, but do you really want more codex's to get updated. Look how long it takes now. But no, you guys want to add more. Good luck with that when your sitting in the same position as the Tau and Sisters now, or DE and Necrons were. Super out of date and no one wants to use you.
kenzosan wrote:Couple things:
It seems everyone is upset that there are not cult termies. I am too, but the Cult's are going to be elites. Shouldn't that mean they are getting buffed? In my mind it seems like the cults are gonna be vet's but better because they have the cult powers. Better special rules or weapons.
Except they're going to be able to be made Troops depending on your HQ, so they can't make them much better than regular troops or else cult armies will be OP.
kenzosan wrote:Couple things:
It seems everyone is upset that there are not cult termies. I am too, but the Cult's are going to be elites. Shouldn't that mean they are getting buffed? In my mind it seems like the cults are gonna be vet's but better because they have the cult powers. Better special rules or weapons.
Except they're going to be able to be made Troops depending on your HQ, so they can't make them much better than regular troops or else cult armies will be OP.
That and the fact Elite in 40K basically means "units we don't have alot of compared to troops choices" so there only in the Elite spot to show that. Some are badass other, not so much.
kenzosan wrote:Couple things:
It seems everyone is upset that there are not cult termies. I am too, but the Cult's are going to be elites. Shouldn't that mean they are getting buffed? In my mind it seems like the cults are gonna be vet's but better because they have the cult powers. Better special rules or weapons.
Except they're going to be able to be made Troops depending on your HQ, so they can't make them much better than regular troops or else cult armies will be OP.
That and the fact Elite in 40K basically means "units we don't have alot of compared to troops choices" so there only in the Elite spot to show that. Some are badass other, not so much.
Like I said, Nobz and Vets are better than reg Boyz and SMs.
As it is right now, that's what they are. Might as well have 9 squads of em if I want.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brometheus wrote:Who says DPs dont unlock cults as Troop with appropriate marks on the princes? :p I think you'll be ok.
Problem is there is most likely no Daemon Princes. No Daemons in the CSM codex. At best the new DP sounds like a Possessed Champion
On topic- Last Saturday I was at my FLGS in a "welcome to 6th Ed" tourney (no points / prizes, just a good time and open rule discussion) and the owner was talking about a late August release of the new CSM codex. He was right about the 6th Ed release date so I'm sticking w/ that until other information trumps his prediction.
Off topic- As far as what will and will not be in the new Codex, I am ok w/ it. I've played only 4 games in 6th Ed but have found it to be immensely more enjoyable than 5th Ed, so my faith that the new CSM codex will be mostly worthwhile and a lot of fun is relatively high.
Random weirdness- Skalk's painting tip of the day: When drinking pink lemonade while painting yellow glaze / rust, be sure to know exactly where your brush rinse glass is.
Either my source didn't know much about this particular kit, or he was alluding to it being a Chaos Daemons flier instead of a Chaos Marines one.
Maybe there's something there. Didn't someone else also just say that Daemons, Nids and Tau were getting a flyer release with rules in WD? If this was the case then the Chaos Dragon could be for the Daemons while the CSM got something more conservative like the Hell Talon.
Damn, I am a bit worried now regarding what they are going to do in relation to CSM that follow Chaos Undivided. It would be nice if they spent an equal amount of time on this faction as they do on the other four.
kenzosan wrote:Problem is there is most likely no Daemon Princes. No Daemons in the CSM codex. At best the new DP sounds like a Possessed Champion
That's a huge leap of logic, I think.
How so? It says right in the OP. No Daemons and
There is a multitude of gifts (and curses) that your Characters can acquire which range from +1 Save, +1 Toughness, or becoming either a Spawn or a Daemon Prince
What I said was in relation to a Daemon Prince getting a gift/mark that unlocks cults as troops.
According to the rumor, there is no straight up HQ Daemon Prince like there used to be.
Lockark wrote:Or the OP means they are removing the Generic Greater and Lesser deamons. Just saying.
Considering the Daemon Prince box has been a Chaos Daemon box since release of Daemons, I doubt CSM will keep him. If you want a Daemon in your CSM army you use an ally, just like the OP said in the first place.
Removing Daemon Princes from the CSM book doesn't make any sense. It'd be like removing Daemons or Daemonic Gifts, other things that are core to Chaos.
Personally I'm hoping they decide to broaden the scope of the random elements in a Chaos Marine army:
Before deployment roll a d6:
1: You must play the entire game blindfolded
2: Switch armies with your opponent
3: Mutter "Heretics say what?" if anyone says "What" they have to control your army for this game. You can go home.
4: Make a rash impulse buy at gamesworkshop.com
5: Every time anything at all happens you have to make an unrelated Simpsons or Family Guy reference. Laugh at your brilliant sense of humour.
6: Apply all of the above.
If your HQ has a specific mark also apply the following: Nurgle: Sneeze on your opponent at the start of every turn. Khorne: Never stop yelling.
Tzeentch: Expose yourself to dangerous levels of radiation. Slaanesh: Take your pants off.
Undvided: Make everyone in the store/tournament/basement hug for slightly too long.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Removing Daemon Princes from the CSM book doesn't make any sense. It'd be like removing Daemons or Daemonic Gifts, other things that are core to Chaos.
Oh wait...
It's like taking out the Inquisition from the Sisters.
Sephyr wrote:
kenzosan wrote:
Problem is there is most likely no Daemon Princes. No Daemons in the CSM codex. At best the new DP sounds like a Possessed Champion
Under that logic Possessed should also no longer be in the codex.
No. Read the OP. It says Daemons. Possessed aren't Daemons.
I am going by the rumors. I am not assuming anything. The rumors say that Daemons are out because of allies. Daemon Princes are Daemons and may be removed, which fits with the other rumor about a champion being able to become "a spawn or prince"
It's like taking out the Inquisition from the Sisters.
Not really, considering that they never started with the inquisition and are more with the Church.
My point was that the inquisition was a part of the codex like daemons are for csm. Not all of the csm use daemons in fights. Besides. The thing is, Allies means it won't matter. Which has been the point since the OP.
And since when aren't the Sisters as much a part of the Church as the Inquisition?
H.B.M.C. wrote:Removing Daemon Princes from the CSM book doesn't make any sense. It'd be like removing Daemons or Daemonic Gifts, other things that are core to Chaos.
Oh wait...
It's like taking out the Inquisition from the Sisters.
Sephyr wrote:
kenzosan wrote:
Problem is there is most likely no Daemon Princes. No Daemons in the CSM codex. At best the new DP sounds like a Possessed Champion
Under that logic Possessed should also no longer be in the codex.
No. Read the OP. It says Daemons. Possessed aren't Daemons.
I am going by the rumors. I am not assuming anything. The rumors say that Daemons are out because of allies. Daemon Princes are Daemons and may be removed, which fits with the other rumor about a champion being able to become "a spawn or prince"
Very good point. If HQ become demon prince on a good role lets hope that means that demon prince exist in this dex. at least as a HQ choice. If its only because your character got into a beef with someone and won, that might be interesting IF you have a good shot at becoming a DP.
I think this talk about 'no daemon princes' is a little overblown.
It's a long standing piece of fluff that Lords and Sorcerers of a Chaos Marine army (or any heretic) aspires to Daemonhood. Daemon Princes don't START as Daemons, they start as heretics, mutants, leaders, all of them the best servants the Dark Gods get. That's why they BECOME Daemon Princes.
This puts Daemon Princes in a unique spot in the Chaos Marine and Chaos Daemon fluff. Daemon Princes don't start off as daemons. Keepers of Secrets do, Lords of Change do, Pink Horrors do, Fiends of Slaanesh do, Beasts of Nurgle do, Plaguebearers do, Bloodletters do, but Daemon Princes do not.
Now, the one bit that is interesting is the idea that a roll on the Eye of the Gods table will turn a lord INTO a Daemon Prince (or a spawn). Now, if a lord turns into a Daemon Prince, you'll probably have to have the model to represent that, right? If you need the model for the Codex anyway, why not have the full entry for it so you can get more bang for your buck (and GW sells more models)? Oh yeah, that's right, we're in the real world where money talks, and we're talking about GW. Yeah, taking a key and very popular plastic kit out of a Codex typically isn't GW style. They sell more by being more inclusive with their kits. That's why all Space Marine kits are practically interchangeable, and why Daemons were included in the 3.5 (and on) CSM Codices. It's why they're doing allies now. To take a key HQ model out of the Chaos Marine Codex doesn't quite jive.
timetowaste85 wrote:I'm sure princes are still in. Chaos warriors have princes as lords, why would CSM lose them? Princes are still just elevated mortals.
Not to mention DP's in 3.5 were little more than lords with 50+ wargear in daemonic gifts.
If you take a look at the GW website they class Daemon Princes as diffrent to Daemons. I would guess what they are saying is no Lord of Change or Greater Daemon of Nurgle leading a force of CSM, but you will get Daemon Princes.
I would say it is a miss understanding/miss comunication/not classing Daemon Princes as Daemons.
yeah,
Daemon Princes will stay in the new codex.
GW has too many DP models with iconic space marine armour to remove CSM variety Daemon Princes from the codex.
I'm not demanding special treatment for CSM (I don't even play them) just hoping for a common sense approach from GW (I know )
A few months ago, it was suggested that there should be a Chaos Legion codex for the original traitors, and a Codex for recently turned traitors like the Red Corsairs and other renegades.
IMO that would be a brilliant idea, as it would allow players and converters the chance to do the rich pantheon of Chaos fluff some justice.
Instead, we'll probably get the usual halfway house of GW cramming everything into one book, whilst on the other hand wasting time doing books for Black Templars and sisters. In all honesty, is there anything that makes the BT stand out from any other chapter? IMO they're just as bland as Ultramarines, and yet, they'll probably end up with their own codex.
In response to earlier comments, yes, not every CSM is a veteran, and their lack of modern equipment and their fragmented nature compared to the fighting methods of the Ultramarines for example, would count against them.
But a useful comparison is comparing CSM to space wolves. Space wolves don't follow Guilliman's textbook to the letter but Grey Hunters get some great abilities for the cost. Why not a veteran, 10,000 year old CSM? These guys have been fighting in the eye of terror, that experience should count for something IMO.
As a final note, there are, what, 6 or 7 books for the forces of the imperium, but only 2 for Chaos (deamons and CSM). Bumping that number up to 3 (Legion, CSM, Daemons) would adddress the balance a bit. After all, Chaos is supposed to be the number 1 threat to the imperium.
i am guessing they woudl move the Cult units to stop peopel fielding armies of nothgin but DPs, Plague marines and Oblits (which is the current tourney meta i believe?).
I agree with the idea that you need (for example) a Nurgle alligned HQ to field Plague Marines. Full on Plague marines/Berzerkers/Noise marines etc are supposed to be rare and..um....elite.
Chances are a Nurge dedicated army would have scores of troops that Worship nurgle, but only a select few would be raised to the level of full-on Plague Marines.
Praxiss wrote:i am guessing they woudl move the Cult units to stop peopel fielding armies of nothgin but DPs, Plague marines and Oblits (which is the current tourney meta i believe?).
I agree with the idea that you need (for example) a Nurgle alligned HQ to field Plague Marines. Full on Plague marines/Berzerkers/Noise marines etc are supposed to be rare and..um....elite.
Chances are a Nurge dedicated army would have scores of troops that Worship nurgle, but only a select few would be raised to the level of full-on Plague Marines.
Except that Cult armies have been present since 2nd edition sir.
While not all Plague Marines are Death Guard, all Death Guard are Plague Marines.
The special character approach could work.
But seriously, I'd hope to see either new SCs for that (Since Ahriman, Kharn and Typhus are all renegades and exiles of their own Legions so why on earth use them to make cult armies?!) or ideally a system of marks, perhaps similar to JustDave's fandex with Greater and Lesser Marks - and a HQ with a Greater Mark of Fluffy unlocks the Fluffy as troops where.
Heck, if the Terminator option is incorporated into the entry we could see Plaguewing or Berserkerwing armies. Oh my.
plastictrees wrote:Personally I'm hoping they decide to broaden the scope of the random elements in a Chaos Marine army:
Before deployment roll a d6:
1: You must play the entire game blindfolded
2: Switch armies with your opponent
3: Mutter "Heretics say what?" if anyone says "What" they have to control your army for this game. You can go home.
4: Make a rash impulse buy at gamesworkshop.com
5: Every time anything at all happens you have to make an unrelated Simpsons or Family Guy reference. Laugh at your brilliant sense of humour.
6: Apply all of the above.
If your HQ has a specific mark also apply the following: Nurgle: Sneeze on your opponent at the start of every turn. Khorne: Never stop yelling.
Tzeentch: Expose yourself to dangerous levels of radiation. Slaanesh: Take your pants off.
Undvided: Make everyone in the store/tournament/basement hug for slightly too long.
Possible picture and information regarding the Chaos "Dragon Flyer" from Faeit 212.
That is not "THE" picture, its just a picture the blog owner took from the interwebs to illustrate/highlight his post with information about the "dragon".
The information is that someone at the warehouse saw sprues they could not identify, that look bio-mechanical. That is it. No picture, no details or nothing.
Possible picture and information regarding the Chaos "Dragon Flyer" from Faeit 212.
That is not "THE" picture, its just a picture the blog owner took from the interwebs to illustrate/highlight his post with information about the "dragon".
The information is that someone at the warehouse saw sprues they could not identify, that look bio-mechanical. That is it. No picture, no details or nothing.
I hope that's not the model, like others have said, it looks nothing like a GW model, I'd imagine a mix between Gaulrauch and an Imperial Aircraft of some form.
blood reaper wrote:I hope that's not the model, like others have said, it looks nothing like a GW model, I'd imagine a mix between Gaulrauch and an Imperial Aircraft of some form.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:No Cult Termies would make me a sad panda.
Agreed, Nurgle and Khorne Terminators would have been great, Feel no Pain Termies? Furious Charge Terminators? I'd off forgiven GW for Finecast and the 4th Edition Codex for Cult Termies, the idea could make Chaos competitive, but lets just hope this isn't another 4th edition flop.
Brother SRM wrote:
blood reaper wrote:I hope that's not the model, like others have said, it looks nothing like a GW model, I'd imagine a mix between Gaulrauch and an Imperial Aircraft of some form.
It isn't.
Eh, it was just my idea, though I guess we won't know until someone gets their hands on the next copy of White Dwarf with or a leak.
Agreed, Nurgle and Khorne Terminators would have been great, Feel no Pain Termies? Furious Charge Terminators? I'd off forgiven GW for Finecast and the 4th Edition Codex for Cult Termies, the idea could make Chaos competitive, but lets just hope this isn't another 4th edition flop.
Aye, that would have been nice, but it is also for me a Story styled situation. Its rare that fluffy can mean 'good' in 40K, and if I make the call to limit myself to one of the Legions of the four powers, and paint everything up as such. It would be nice to have all the units under the same god buffed situation as the rest.
For example having Death Guard termies who are not as tough as their mark 6/7 brethren would annoy the heck out of me.
Agreed, Nurgle and Khorne Terminators would have been great, Feel no Pain Termies? Furious Charge Terminators? I'd off forgiven GW for Finecast and the 4th Edition Codex for Cult Termies, the idea could make Chaos competitive, but lets just hope this isn't another 4th edition flop.
Aye, that would have been nice, but it is also for me a Story styled situation. Its rare that fluffy can mean 'good' in 40K, and if I make the call to limit myself to one of the Legions of the four powers, and paint everything up as such. It would be nice to have all the units under the same god buffed situation as the rest.
For example having Death Guard termies who are not as tough as their mark 6/7 brethren would annoy the heck out of me.
It would, I play a Nurgle army, converted from my original and god awful Chaos Marine army, being able to only salvage around half of it, but still toughness five and a 2+ save is pretty good right now, especially in this edition of 40k.
Well I have low hopes for another Eye of the Gods table. In WFB the EoTG table is basically useless because it only works if your character kills another character or Large Target. How many characters want to fight a chaos lord one on one? None. Just throw the unit champion at him.
In 40k 6th, why bother fighting the lord with your captain if you can just throw a sergeant at him? Unless sergeants are characters too now?
Noisy_Marine wrote:Well I have low hopes for another Eye of the Gods table. In WFB the EoTG table is basically useless because it only works if your character kills another character or Large Target. How many characters want to fight a chaos lord one on one? None. Just throw the unit champion at him.
In 40k 6th, why bother fighting the lord with your captain if you can just throw a sergeant at him? Unless sergeants are characters too now?
Honestly the more I hear about this mechanical dragon the more it sounds like a daemon engine and other than a defiler CSM don't have access to daemon engines. Makes me nervous that it's really just a Daemon flier and what that means for the actual release date for the new codex
Noisy_Marine wrote:Well I have low hopes for another Eye of the Gods table. In WFB the EoTG table is basically useless because it only works if your character kills another character or Large Target. How many characters want to fight a chaos lord one on one? None. Just throw the unit champion at him.
In 40k 6th, why bother fighting the lord with your captain if you can just throw a sergeant at him? Unless sergeants are characters too now?
Unit champions are characters as well, iirc. Unless it specifies independent characters?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:It sounds like GW are trying to pawn people off with a Chaos flyer in the hope they'll ignore how bad the codex will probably be!
Why do people make gakky posts like this? This adds absolutely nothing to the thread.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:It sounds like GW are trying to pawn people off with a Chaos flyer in the hope they'll ignore how bad the codex will probably be!
So you're saying a flier that people are hating on is to attracked and distract attention away from a codex people are already hating on, in order to distract us from hating on it when the actual codex comes out? I really don't follow your logic...also wouldn't people not want to buy a model if the codex it went with sucked? Your comment not only doesn't add anything it doesn't even make a lick of sense.
I make gakky posts like the above because I've been with GW since it's birth,and as a result I've seen the best and worst it has to offer. Heart says I will probably buy the new codex, head says the focus of the new codex will be shiny new fliers. It's a classic GW smokescreen - distract people with a couple of flashy models in the hope they'll ignore everything else that's bad.
Noisy_Marine wrote:Well I have low hopes for another Eye of the Gods table. In WFB the EoTG table is basically useless because it only works if your character kills another character or Large Target. How many characters want to fight a chaos lord one on one? None. Just throw the unit champion at him.
In 40k 6th, why bother fighting the lord with your captain if you can just throw a sergeant at him? Unless sergeants are characters too now?
Unit champions are characters as well, iirc.
Unless it specifies independent characters?
And yeah, sergeants are characters.
Unit champions act like characters but are not characters. They get the benefits of Look Out Sir and have to be picked up individually for attacks. Also, they can give and accept challenges. However they are not really characters and don't count for Eye of the Gods. Makes it a fairly useless rule.
If sarge is a character then at least we will get some use out of it. Although turning into a spawn on snake eyes sounds a lot worse then become stupid for the rest of the game. Especially when you consider how useless spawn have been in the last codex.
Noisy_Marine wrote:If sarge is a character then at least we will get some use out of it. Although turning into a spawn on snake eyes sounds a lot worse then become stupid for the rest of the game. Especially when you consider how useless spawn have been in the last codex.
Page 63 plus the Appendix says sarges are characters in 40k.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:It sounds like GW are trying to pawn people off with a Chaos flyer in the hope they'll ignore how bad the codex will probably be!
Spoiler:
That's quite the joke there! Oh wait, your serious......
Manchu wrote:If cult troops are only accessible as troops by taking special characters then I hope said special characters are either new or get new sculpts.
100% agreement there.
I am really going to be ticked if they want me to take Ahriman to lead the Thousand Sons, or Bile for the Emperors Children.
Noisy_Marine wrote:
Unit champions act like characters but are not characters. They get the benefits of Look Out Sir and have to be picked up individually for attacks. Also, they can give and accept challenges. However they are not really characters and don't count for Eye of the Gods. Makes it a fairly useless rule.
If sarge is a character then at least we will get some use out of it. Although turning into a spawn on snake eyes sounds a lot worse then become stupid for the rest of the game. Especially when you consider how useless spawn have been in the last codex.
Maybe GW will take more of an approach where the situation adds to your die roll... that way if you do something more significant it might in the least diminish the possibility of spawning a character into uselessness. I also hope GW makes chaos spawn more worthwhile than they have been.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:I am really going to be ticked if they want me to take Ahriman to lead the Thousand Sons
That's exactly what I had in mind. Even Typhus could use an update. It's not that they are bad models. But we know that GW can do a lot better even than them in the wake of the DE releases.
Manchu wrote:If cult troops are only accessible as troops by taking special characters then I hope said special characters are either new or get new sculpts.
100% agreement there.
I am really going to be ticked if they want me to take Ahriman to lead the Thousand Sons, or Bile for the Emperors Children.
Kind of funny really.
Considering 3/4 likely candidates (Ahriman, Kharn, Typhus) are renegades or exiles from their own Legions.
The sculpts on Ahriman and Kharn are old as well. We're going to the realm of Chaos Dreadnought old. Which, bar the Avatar, some Eldar and some SWSCs are the oldest things in 40k at the moment.
I expect it will require 'Marked' characters (Lords, Princes, Sorcerers) to take Cult troops, but if it's special characters, some Undivided armies would require allot of overhaul, meaning GW get's more cash....
Noisy_Marine wrote:A black legion army may be able to take cult troops as troop choices. Or not.
I imagine if it's lead by Adabbon or a lord with a Legion mark (if they exist) would remove the "0-1" or Elite status of the Cult Troops, otherwise that's gonna be a kick in the teeth for me.
Marked HQ units being able to take cult troops is a pretty radical step by GW, it's not as if its been done before
Of course, whenever I make the point that Chaos needs at least 3 books (legions, renegades, daemons) to do it justice, instead of cramming everything into one book, I get accused of trolling!
Everbody looks to be getting fliers in 6th, so any new chaos flier will be a big deal for GW, and IMO, be detrimental to the rest of the codex.
blood reaper wrote:Gotta agree with that, Kharn and Adabbon really need new sculpts, along with the Greater Daemons.
In theory there will be no more demons in the chaos codex.
Not sure if that applies to the greater demon but people have been implying this.
I like the Model for typhus, and if the dragon flier looks lame i will kit bash my own. The thought of a biomechanical dragon just does not sit well with me. Defilers are demon engine and when you look at them its nearly impossible to see a "demon" component.
I hope if Chaos does get a plastic Flyer kit, that it won't be like the FW ones. They're not bad, per se, but they are so plain that it makes me think I could make one almost as good with plasticard and a little time and patience.
I really hope that special characters unlock different list types. something like the master of the forge would be great if it allowed you to take say defilers as elite choices. Or something like the Ork Mech that allowed dreads to be taken as troops. I realise that chaos, like orks, have many really dedicated players and it will be very hard to make everyone happy with this dex but i have high hopes.
On the same note, i had high hopes for the nids dex and its release resulted in me selling off my nids.
sennacherib wrote:I really hope that special characters unlock different list types. something like the master of the forge would be great if it allowed you to take say defilers as elite choices. Or something like the Ork Mech that allowed dreads to be taken as troops. I realise that chaos, like orks, have many really dedicated players and it will be very hard to make everyone happy with this dex but i have high hopes.
On the same note, i had high hopes for the nids dex and its release resulted in me selling off my nids.
Defiler's as troops? HELL YEAH!
Anyway...
I'd hope black legion / undivided could take 1 certain HQ or mark that allows you to get 1 of each cult as troops instead of elites, as opposed to a specific marked HQ being able to take unlimited of 1 cult. For example, taking a khorne marked lord you could have 4 troops of khorne berzerkers. Or, taking an undivided / black legion marked lord would let you get 1 plague marine troop, 1 thousand sons troop, 1 khorne berzerkers troop at the same time.
Also, it would be cool if the model that gets upgraded to a Daemon Prince rolled for that chance to be able to be promoted to a DP upon entering a challenge, rather than on completion of it. Like, I issue or accept a challenge, roll on a table, possibly turn into a daemon prince, and THEN fight the challenge. SURPRISE, you thought you were fighting an aspiring champion, but LOLIT'S ACTUALLY A DAEMON PRINCE
sennacherib wrote:I really hope that special characters unlock different list types.
Minus Huron and Abaddon, I don't.
I like the idea that most Chaos characters are so self-involved and selfish that they don't care for their warband, or act as force multipliers, but instead act as giant beatsticks.
Huron and Abaddon however, clearly should work as force multipliers at least IMHO.
Not to say that people posting rumors are all wrong (or that one is *better* than the others), but all this "My source says August" "My source says September" "My source says October" means to me that GW are throwing loops around on purpose.
Not to say that people posting rumors are all wrong (or that one is *better* than the others), but all this "My source says August" "My source says September" "My source says October" means to me that GW are throwing loops around on purpose.
The perfect plan muhahahaha
I am not really bothered tbh, it seems next month will be good whatever it is, either the starter set, chaos or flyers, I am happy with any.
CHAOS.
i look forward to jump pack equipped terminator if that is indeed what the new raptors are like. What would such a thing be called. Hmmm.
Also really cant wait to see if defilers get a 5+ invulnerable as i have heard suggested. Not sure if this would make them worthwhile when facing troops in melee since hitting dreads on a 3+ in melee with grenades seems like it was a HUGE nerf to their effectiveness ( well not that huge as a 10 man tactical squad only gets 1 glance on average, but with a 5+ invuln. that would make em a lot more survivable in the current glance to death meta).
And for the love of Khorne, please don’t let Cult Troops only become available as Troops via special characters. That would be tragic.
Agreed, I quit this hobby because of the current Chaos codex and because my troops could lose their Mark if they dropped their Icon. If I'm forced to use a Special Character to create a themed army then I'll wait another 4-5 years to get into the hobby.
sennacherib wrote:CHAOS. i look forward to jump pack equipped terminator if that is indeed what the new raptors are like. What would such a thing be called. Hmmm.
Also really cant wait to see if defilers get a 5+ invulnerable as i have heard suggested. Not sure if this would make them worthwhile when facing troops in melee since hitting dreads on a 3+ in melee with grenades seems like it was a HUGE nerf to their effectiveness ( well not that huge as a 10 man tactical squad only gets 1 glance on average, but with a 5+ invuln. that would make em a lot more survivable in the current glance to death meta).
I'm pretty sure you still use the dread's WS as normal. It shouldn't be an instant 3+
Yeah, having to use special characters would be stupid. I hope they aren't insane enough to try that.
sennacherib wrote:CHAOS.
i look forward to jump pack equipped terminator if that is indeed what the new raptors are like. What would such a thing be called. Hmmm.
Also really cant wait to see if defilers get a 5+ invulnerable as i have heard suggested. Not sure if this would make them worthwhile when facing troops in melee since hitting dreads on a 3+ in melee with grenades seems like it was a HUGE nerf to their effectiveness ( well not that huge as a 10 man tactical squad only gets 1 glance on average, but with a 5+ invuln. that would make em a lot more survivable in the current glance to death meta).
I'm pretty sure you still use the dread's WS as normal. It shouldn't be an instant 3+
Yeah, having to use special characters would be stupid. I hope they aren't insane enough to try that.
Defilers are WS 3 so they get hit by marines on a 3+. That's what he meant.
i doubt it will be named characters only unlocking cult troops, just marked characters in general. Like the 3.5 Dex.
Hell, Loyalists get Bikes as Troops for having a Bike Captain. Surely, after this much time in mediocrity, the new Chaos book will be better.
"Well hello all. I had my conference earlier today. Nothing really new except that the codex after csm will not hit till 2013. Right now GW is VERY upset at the failure of 6ed distribution. So they will try to get THAT sorted out then chaos them terraim and flyers. There was also NO mention of a fantasy book this year. Take it how it is but thats what I have. Any more details I can gather will be here."
Also from Natfka in the comments:
"Hold on guys. I have something very juicy coming....... by morning you will forget everything you have heard, and anything about gw managers will seem like last years faded memories.
This source has been been very accurate and has sent in good information in the past that has turned out correct. Otherwise it would not have made a post.
I know GW managers are not supposed to know anything, however I have it on good authority that some are in the current loop on the next couple releases through Oct. I am sorry that I can't go into more detail than that.
Just check into the site in the morning as I have an exclusive bombshell to drop. Ive had to clear my post schedule tomorrow for i"
The last part isn't really a rumor yet, but I will definitely be checking the site in the morning.
H.B.M.C. wrote:"Right now GW is VERY upset at the failure of 6ed distribution."
Someone want to elaborate on this?
I'm totally lost. Unless there's some country that didn't get their 6th ed books at the same time as everyone else, I'd say this has been a best-seller for GW. The Gamers and Collectors editions sold like hotcakes and the actual book has been flying off the shelves. My FLGS managed to get 6 Collectors, 15 Gamers, and another 15 regular.. all of them have sold. That's success, and that's not even a GW store.
If there was some mistake or lack of enthusiasm or result, we'd have heard about it. This is the Internet after all.
Y'know what? I got it. This is planned by GW. Some of these leaks are coming through to throw us all off the scent. GW wants us to hype up Chaos so that people will buy the old kits excited to start a new army, then they'll drop a bomb when we least expect it and get us to spend money again on all the new kits. Then they won't replace some of the older kits until wave 2.
All this shenanigans about October and September and anger about 6th ed distribution is just to throw us off the trail!
Hmm so Chaos will become "optimized" for 6th, and no one else for quite a few months. No Fantasy either? Geez that is a lot of dead months. I hope that rumor isnt true
Aren't the White Dwarfs printed up months in advance ? I can't see something that would be advertised in the next month or so for a September/October relase being pushed back till next year if the product is made and the advertisements are printed and bound to hit the shevles next month
H.B.M.C. wrote:"Right now GW is VERY upset at the failure of 6ed distribution."
Someone want to elaborate on this?
I've seen scattered posts around the blogosphere of people still not having received their pre-order copies of 6th. Apparently they were told there would be a bit of a wait to ship out the orders as they had run out of stock. Only one post I saw reported GW customer service citing a stock issue for their shipping delay. I feel like if this was a widespread issue, we'd have heard more about it. Additionally, I find it incredibly hard to believe they are out of stock of books unless there was a delay directly from the manufacturer. Even then the books should have been printed long ago and been properly stocked in GW shipping centers, and you don't simply sell more units than you have without technical issues allowing items to oversell, so I find the stock issues hard to believe. I work in distribution and even if there was massive fulfillment failures with 6th, you don't shut down your business of selling new product because of it. Everything about this sounds bogus.
H.B.M.C. wrote:"Right now GW is VERY upset at the failure of 6ed distribution."
Someone want to elaborate on this?
I've seen scattered posts around the blogosphere of people still not having received their pre-order copies of 6th. Apparently they were told there would be a bit of a wait to ship out the orders as they had run out of stock. Only one post I saw reported GW customer service citing a stock issue for their shipping delay. I feel like if this was a widespread issue, we'd have heard more about it. Additionally, I find it incredibly hard to believe they are out of stock of books unless there was a delay directly from the manufacturer. Even then the books should have been printed long ago and been properly stocked in GW shipping centers, and you don't simply sell more units than you have without technical issues allowing items to oversell, so I find the stock issues hard to believe. I work in distribution and even if there was massive fulfillment failures with 6th, you don't shut down your business of selling new product because of it. Everything about this sounds bogus.
It seems quite a few folks actually received a double shipment of the ultimate edition (two collector's edition books and two regular edition books) for the price of one while others, as Cadaver pointed out, have yet to receive their orders at all.
sennacherib wrote:Also really cant wait to see if defilers get a 5+ invulnerable as i have heard suggested. Not sure if this would make them worthwhile when facing troops in melee since hitting dreads on a 3+ in melee with grenades seems like it was a HUGE nerf to their effectiveness
I'm pretty sure you still use the dread's WS as normal. It shouldn't be an instant 3+
Defilers are WS 3 so they get hit by marines on a 3+. That's what he meant.
Noisy_Marine wrote:Meh.
So grenades hit walkers on 3+ now? That sucks for walkers.
See, this is what happens when you post off-handed rules comments without considering how people with poor reading comprehension will take it. You've probably ruined walkers for an entire gaming group. Let this be a lesson to you.
There's also been all those problems with the dice packs etc being in stock, that they have spoken in some depth about. - I notice I still can't find them on the GW site.
Maybe that's a symptom of a wider problem that the posters referring to
"Here are some details that have been sent to me about the next several months release schedule for Warhammer 40k. From the looks of things, August is an enormously full month, and if these pan out, September and October will be just as exciting.
We were given this exclusive set of information for Faeit 212. I am hopeful that for whatever reason the White Dwarf being pushed back does not mean that the release for August is going to be changing. With Chaos Marines just around the corner and Dark Angels on the very near horizon, this is the kind of schedule we dream about for our hobby. "
Faeit 212 wrote:
A lot of stuff has been circulating recently and I really don't know where they're getting it from. I just wanted to sort of set some of it straight.
The next 4 major launches are 3 new flyers, Chaos Space Marines, the 6th edition starter set and Dark Angels.
The new flyers (1 of which being chaos) and the Chaos Space Marine book and initial waves are both done and in some cases even distributed to warehouses.
The current itinerary for release is New Flyers plus the Chaos book and half the models for August.
Then it's the other half of chaos plus the starter for September
Then it's Dark Angels and their ENTIRE new range in October.
It's a whole lot coming really fast and there's a little bit of resistance (from certain people) on the release of the flyers and chaos all at once.
That said, August's white dwarf has been pushed back for reasons I do not know. In the past, however, the only reason for White Dwarfs to be pushed back, however, have been last minute removal of content and articles, never additions.
This month had so much content potential that about 80% of it ended up on the editing room floor, so it wouldn't be difficult for them to fill a magazine back up if they were cutting chunks out of it.
As of Thursday morning though, August white dwarf hasn't been sent to the printers. The drop date on that is Friday.
At least summarise for those of us who don't want to go to blogspot related sites in what for all we could know could be a grab for site views.
Hay, the guy got some infomation and Natfkas a good guy, he deserves the extra hits. I also posted the full transcript elseware as it is not just about chaos.
Faeit 212 wrote:
A lot of stuff has been circulating recently and I really don't know where they're getting it from. I just wanted to sort of set some of it straight.
The next 4 major launches are 3 new flyers, Chaos Space Marines, the 6th edition starter set and Dark Angels.
The new flyers (1 of which being chaos) and the Chaos Space Marine book and initial waves are both done and in some cases even distributed to warehouses.
The current itinerary for release is New Flyers plus the Chaos book and half the models for August.
Then it's the other half of chaos plus the starter for September
Then it's Dark Angels and their ENTIRE new range in October.
It's a whole lot coming really fast and there's a little bit of resistance (from certain people) on the release of the flyers and chaos all at once.
That said, August's white dwarf has been pushed back for reasons I do not know. In the past, however, the only reason for White Dwarfs to be pushed back, however, have been last minute removal of content and articles, never additions.
This month had so much content potential that about 80% of it ended up on the editing room floor, so it wouldn't be difficult for them to fill a magazine back up if they were cutting chunks out of it.
As of Thursday morning though, August white dwarf hasn't been sent to the printers. The drop date on that is Friday.
If this is true, my wallet is going to have a good workout
if the Starter kit is out in September (i think) and contains Cultists for the chaos faction (whcih apparently it will, according to rumours) - it woudl make sense to have RUES for the cultists availabel atthe same time or before hand.
Therefore - it stands to reason that if Cultists are out in September - the Chaos codex shoudl be out aroud the same time.
Yup.
Thank god Petre has the rumor accuracy tracking thread. so many have said so much with so little proof. I am sticking with Kroot on this one. Next month, chaos. Possibly lame dragon flyer. Possibly really cool cultists. Fingers crossed.
Hmmm, despite wanting to see the new flyers, I think its for the better if we get the chaos dex out of the way first. Then again, it probably saves them pain if they release the chaos flyer with the book, so they wont reveal anything early.
Am I correct in thinking that the other two flyers were a dark elder one and a tau one? I hear things about the harpy and a deamon flyer (how that works I have no idea)
i am just gettign to grips with NewCrons (and gettign the models i want)...and you go out and release the 'dex for my only other army!!
Loks like i will ahve to buy the 'dex and hodl off on the models for a while. Hopefully my existign army is big and diverse enough to not need too much re-working.
not complaining about the release schedule. In fact it looks like they are trying to push the schedule up a notch to get the older armies updated (althogh still no work on Eldar or Tau).
My point was that you wait ages for a new 'dex, then both your armies get fully updated at once.
Thanks again for your hard work.
You are correct.
Hard back is for reading at home and to look impressive on the coffee table, the ipad edition is the one you are supposed to use at the gaming table. 
I know we're wishlisting, but I'll double down on that!
