Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:I have been reading through this for the past week but have not hit every post. Is there any hints about any Fallen/Cypher in the Chaos Codex?? Is there anyone out there, other then me, that would like to see at least a tad of fallen get some love? There is so much awesomeness behind the fallen i.e. maybe they dont even belong in the Chaos codex (they are the Loyal half)
-Lando
No new special characters over the current book, sorry. The Fallen are rare enough that even a unit of them would be out of place.
And my no.1 pet peeve: our flying daemon princes won't be flying, merely jumping.. i'll try to remedy that by allying my CSM with daemons, just to get a DP that can actually FLY...
...
hold up. Our daemon princes CURRENTLY are merely jumping, not flying. There is NO indication that this is how it will be in the new codex. Actually, daemon princes are rumored to have a points increase to be equal to the ones from the daemon codex, which leads me to believe they will get the benefits of the ones from the daemons codex, like being flying monstrous creatures.
Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:I have been reading through this for the past week but have not hit every post. Is there any hints about any Fallen/Cypher in the Chaos Codex?? Is there anyone out there, other then me, that would like to see at least a tad of fallen get some love? There is so much awesomeness behind the fallen i.e. maybe they dont even belong in the Chaos codex (they are the Loyal half)
-Lando
No new special characters over the current book, sorry. The Fallen are rare enough that even a unit of them would be out of place.
Yes, the fallen are rare. But they are still apart of the 40k universe. I mean they are a pretty big deal to the Dark Angels. And dont you think that a couple elite Fallen would want to roll around with some Night Lords to drop some heavy beats on the Dark Angels.
So in terms of rumors about Fallen. I am going to go with no news is good news.
Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:I have been reading through this for the past week but have not hit every post. Is there any hints about any Fallen/Cypher in the Chaos Codex?? Is there anyone out there, other then me, that would like to see at least a tad of fallen get some love? There is so much awesomeness behind the fallen i.e. maybe they dont even belong in the Chaos codex (they are the Loyal half)
-Lando
No new special characters over the current book, sorry. The Fallen are rare enough that even a unit of them would be out of place.
Yes, the fallen are rare. But they are still apart of the 40k universe. I mean they are a pretty big deal to the Dark Angels. And dont you think that a couple elite Fallen would want to roll around with some Night Lords to drop some heavy beats on the Dark Angels.
So in terms of rumors about Fallen. I am going to go with no news is good news.
They may be rare, but are they more common than GK Dreds, or than a chapter master? I would say they are. I don't think a single fallen as a HQ, or a unit of up to 10 as a unique choice would be that impossible. The question is though, is Cypher new? Depends on what you call new.
They said no new special characters, but that doesn't mean old ones can't come back. Doom Rider and Cypher are both old, and may come back-we won't know until somebody has the book.
I doubt old special characters are returning. Their models are usually lame, and there's tons of finecast GW can elease before resorting to them.
Regarding Cypher and Fallen Angels, either could be made as upgrades for a Chosen squad, like Telion for SM scouts. It's the solution JustDave found in his codex and I think it's really smart...meaning it likely won't ever happen in an official book.
I seriously hope Doom Rider doesn't come back.. Don't need a ghost rider rip off that doesn't have much of a place. Same with Cypher really, he's not part of any of the legions nor does he have his own legion.
Well no new characters is all the rumors say so looks like you're out of luck.
I personally liked the Doomrider he's the only chaos special character who wasnt just footslogging infantry or a terminator. Loyalists have special characters that take all kinds of forms while the only thing distinguishing chaos' characters is really their god. That's ok and all I just think variety is more interesting.
Many of the chaos special characters have left their legion... So in a sense its not something that distinguishes him in an exclussionary way. The fact that he truly is on his own and the fact that he's been depicted as someone with the keen ability to turn the masses against the imperium is what makes him unique. I really think he should be a unit buff special character that replaces a champion. Add him to a CSM squad to make fallen, or add him to cultists to give them a sm with leadership and more punch.
Demiurg wrote:
One would hope it'll stay the same (it won't go down), but knowing GW.. it'll probably see a price increase.
The "RRP" I've seen is 75 pounds
Thats about 118 dollars
Harry on Warseer wrote:
There IS a limited edition starter set. Limited run of 5,000 copies I think is what I heard.
I do not know how it differs from the standard starter set ..... but I suspect not that much?
Any notion of split starter sets or multiple starter sets for different armies is. in my opinion, total bobbins.
Thanks for all your rumor tracking updates pretre.
Unfortunately, it seems that with Stickmonkey stating "Starter set up for preorder August 25th, release Sept 1st" October is certainly looking like the month for CSM. Of course I want it sooner, but I seriously doubt they would throw a codex with the starter set now as people have said... We will see.
I'm sorry pal, I should have clarified. I get confused because this thread has gone on for so long and it has both the book and the starter in the title.
I think this actually sounds like a codex that appears lik an attempt to produce something balanced. If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.
For me this thing gives chaos distinctively chaos vehicles and shows the greater importance of Chaos cultists and daemon engines that should be there... two things severly needed in the current codex. While "Legions" aren't formally written up, I think its fairly obvious that the new units were produced with atleast informally representing the Legions in mind... that's better than nothing, ie right now.
aka_mythos wrote:I think this actually sounds like a codex that appears lik an attempt to produce something balanced. If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.
For me this thing gives chaos distinctively chaos vehicles and shows the greater importance of Chaos cultists and daemon engines that should be there... two things severly needed in the current codex. While "Legions" aren't formally written up, I think its fairly obvious that the new units were produced with atleast informally representing the Legions in mind... that's better than nothing, ie right now.
Having to accept all challenges, rolling on Eye of the Gods table...I'm reserving final judgement but from here, but I've stopped painting, and assembling and won't do anything hobby related until I get the book in my hands to discern the grim truth of how fethed and ally dependent we will be. I'm hoping for the best...but I'm girding myself for the worst.
I don't use daemons, and I don't really want cultists. Chosen are rumored to be pretty much copy-pasted from Gavdex 1 to Gavdex TNE. All in all, some things sound interesting, but I get the feeling it's "scaled back" in power. So, while I'm not really wanting a Super Quiche book, I'm getting tired of always being at a disadvantage against every army. If I wanted that kind of challenge, or LOL random tables, I'd play Tyranids or Orks (respectively).
I don't play in tournaments, but the people I play with pretty much play tournament style so I face the Nastiest stuff, and I'm tired of being the punching bag. If my chosen army isn't going to get some Cheese-or at least some crunch for all the "lol random " tables and the fluff and I got to experience another bout of "If you wanted a good codex you shouldn't have turned from the Emperor" I'll drop flags and make Space Wolves (since my base troops are dropping to Space Wolf leadership, and Space Wolves don't have to roll on LOL random tables and such) turning my Terminators into Greyknight allies and not give one Infinitesimal of a feth about what anybody says about it.
Hell, I'll come right out and say it: I wish Matt Ward wrote this book. Because he'd mess up the background, but it'd play dirty and wreck the crap out of everything and it'd be awesome.
Seems to fit most of the named chaos IC's, but as a blanket rule I am not happy about it as we can no longer throw a chump champion at the challenger while our IC goes to town on his squad.
@Trevak Dal: I'm gonna assume you're not trolling because I did see a good deal of fealing behind that soap box of yours. I have to say this though. Praying to the dark god matt ward is not the answer. We can still get a competitive codex without resorting to the swiss and gouda. I'm reserved about the codex too but one doesn't have to resort to power creap and bull**** to win games.
Without trying to be that guy that always says this, but you could just wait for the Codex before complaining too much.
This 'far' out, rumours are often fairly inaccurate; it's still about 2 months away by current expectations and things only really get accurate within a month before release IMHO...
Hmmm, GW and Spawns.... You know the better the models look the worse their usefulness to point value they become. Look at Special Heroes, Spawns, Possessed.
They pushed using spawns in Apocalypse, with the Gift of Chaos spell, and in this addition it sounds like possession.
They really need to give Spawns, feel no pain, an invulnerable save.
As for Possessed, if they pay for their abilities then they will over shadow raptors, and CC Terminators, unless, raptors can DS on Icons like Termies can.
To me the only real fix that the Possesed needed was to roll there ability before Deployment, then you could know what they could do.
Saying that; there is a lot they could do with them that would make them 20% Cooler or just 20% Better.
Seems to fit most of the named chaos IC's, but as a blanket rule I am not happy about it as we can no longer throw a chump champion at the challenger while our IC goes to town on his squad.
And yet, those Fantasy WoC players who have the exact same rule as the one that CSM's are said to be getting, somehow manage to be one of the most competitive armies out there...
Does the new BRB come right out and state that IC's must ALWAYS offer/accept challenges before your regular unit champy can?!
Overlord Zerrtin wrote:soo from what i read i dont quite understand are daemon princes HQ or heavy support? cuz id love to have 2 sorceror lords and 3 daemon princes!
They're HS in a Chaos Daemons army, and HQ in CSM. We don't know where they'll go yet.
Seems to fit most of the named chaos IC's, but as a blanket rule I am not happy about it as we can no longer throw a chump champion at the challenger while our IC goes to town on his squad.
And yet, those Fantasy WoC players who have the exact same rule as the one that CSM's are said to be getting, somehow manage to be one of the most competitive armies out there...
Does the new BRB come right out and state that IC's must ALWAYS offer/accept challenges before your regular unit champy can?!
Because they have several easy builds
1: Great Weapons and Khorne Marks on Marauders (So cheap it's actually a crutch at this point)
2: Exploitable manner in which to give a 4++ ward save on chosen, alongside other bonus
3: An alter that everyone takes to grant more eye of the god bonus' on a unit.
4: Hellcannon, point and fire.
Essentially, it has Phil Kelly's bad internal pricing for units. Though I give props for those who use throgg and monster builds and avoid one to two marauder khorne groups.
No kidding, does the new CSM codex include WFB-like chosen along with warshrines so we can have units running around with 3+ invuls? Might as well make it even more like fantasy.
My predictions, and i hope these fall short of the mark.
New units will be underpriced for what they do to motivate players to flock to the new models and boost GW sales.
Really popular units will get the nerf with some more than others.
Lots of people will get upset because of the changes and lots of powergamers will figure out a way to tailor the dex to make some brutal lists. They will rush out and buy the necessary models to be able to feild said list and will then lord over everyone at their FLGS with their unpainted grey plastic armies of doom. They will then justify not painting their armies for a number of reasons which will include the real reason. The fact that they are planning on selling the army as soon as a new codex with more broken combos comes out and want to have the highest resale value possible. Rinse and repeat.
I hope the nerf bat does not invalidate Nurgle as a legitimate list since i have invested the last six years collecting and converting as i go. If they get overpowered i will be forced to dumb my lists down some so that they are more evenly matched to those my fellow gamers feild. Either way i am really hoping for fun new rules and looking forward to some of the new units, especially the demon engine. If these things come in a fast attack option i will be overjoyed and likewise i will be stoked if i can give my cult termis Feel no pain with the appropriate mark.
sennacherib wrote:My predictions, and i hope these fall short of the mark.
New units will be underpriced for what they do to motivate players to flock to the new models and boost GW sales.
Really popular units will get the nerf with some more than others.
Lots of people will get upset because of the changes and lots of powergamers will figure out a way to tailor the dex to make some brutal lists. They will rush out and buy the necessary models to be able to feild said list and will then lord over everyone at their FLGS with their unpainted grey plastic armies of doom. They will then justify not painting their armies for a number of reasons which will include the real reason. The fact that they are planning on selling the army as soon as a new codex with more broken combos comes out and want to have the highest resale value possible. Rinse and repeat.
I hope the nerf bat does not invalidate Nurgle as a legitimate list since i have invested the last six years collecting and converting as i go. If they get overpowered i will be forced to dumb my lists down some so that they are more evenly matched to those my fellow gamers feild. Either way i am really hoping for fun new rules and looking forward to some of the new units, especially the demon engine. If these things come in a fast attack option i will be overjoyed and likewise i will be stoked if i can give my cult termis Feel no pain with the appropriate mark.
aka_mythos wrote:If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.
Renegades shouldn't be in the Chaos codex. They should just let the loyalist codex ally with daemons. If IG can do it why not SM?
aka_mythos wrote:While "Legions" aren't formally written up, I think its fairly obvious that the new units were produced with atleast informally representing the Legions in mind... that's better than nothing, ie right now.
They should use that to advertise it in the next White Dwarf. Get ready for Codex: Chaos Space Marines - better than nothing!
Seems to fit most of the named chaos IC's, but as a blanket rule I am not happy about it as we can no longer throw a chump champion at the challenger while our IC goes to town on his squad.
I dont ever deny challenges even now.
But I think you're misunderstanding the rule. If you, WangoFett, have a unit in combat with a champion and an IC, and that unit gets challenged... Mind, they dont choose who in the unit they challenge, they just call out the challenge, and you choose who accepts/denies... If you, WangoFett, accept the challenge with your champion, then you have met the criteria of accepting all challenges. You did not deny the challenge with your IC, you just accepted with a different character. I dont think the rule is meant that if you have an IC and a champion that the champion cant accept the challenge, just that you can never deny a challenge
aka_mythos wrote:If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.
Renegades shouldn't be in the Chaos codex. They should just let the loyalist codex ally with daemons. If IG can do it why not SM?
I think renegades are more than just loyalists with extra spikes. I just don't think GW's ever thought through what Renegade space marines are and how they're distinguished from the Chaos Legions and rogue legionaries.
Renegades are former loyalists, and at an intermediate step towards corruption than the chaos legions... but the question is how far along their path to corruption are they?-If you want to represent renegade who just a day ago were loyalists, then yes a loyalist codex is the best way to represent them. That though only covers a relatively narrow view of renegades, while fluff shows even by the end of a renegade chapters first campaign they've started incorporating more attributes more in common with the Chaos Space Marines of the legions. I think you could only ever justify rules Renegades from the vantage of half way towards true chaos and further along.
To represent Chaos Renegade GW must consider other distinctions, they do not necessarily have refuge in the Eye of Terror, and they do not nesseccarily have a full grasp or understanding of chaos. This should push them into more of a portrayle as a piratical group of marines, with minimal cult marines and god worship. They'd have marks but not neccessarily the mutations or daemon engines that come with exposure ot the warp and comingling with the chaos legions. They'd attempt to assert influence over lesser chaos groups like cultists and traitor guard... While their association with Chaos Legions might solely be in the form of a trade relationship, where the Renegades provide a steady stream of certain types of supplies and materiales into the Eye of Terror in exchange for other equipment. Where I think Chaos Renegade would be most appropriate would be some form of mini-dex allies list, like what's rumored for the Kroot. Where they only have one or two units per FOC to select from... I think emphasizing the piratical aspect would give them the most distinction while being most representative of their modus operandi. They'd be Chaos Marines, with loyalist leadership, with bolter or bolt pistol/ccw instead of both and they should have some sort of rule representing their specialization on ship to ship actions: in to the fray reroll to hit when shooting at enemies within 6" or something... with some weapon options from both loyalists and chaos books.
That's just an example of the type of consideration GW should give renegades but really haven't. To GW there is no difference between Renegades and the Black Legion, fluffwise we know better. Just as much as that is a travisty to the concept of Renegades, so is representing them as spikier loyalists. So you do them as much disservice.
I think GW intends for you to build the armies that way and have fun with new rules you come up with, Granted you can never really field the army at tournements but if you're playing at a tourny you shouldn't really be too focused on fluff that day anyway.
To sum my point up. At home or even at a FLGS play for fun and make up your own renegade rules. At a tourny play with a more firm adherence to the codex. Would renegades make it that far fluff wise against groups dedicated to cushing all resistance anyway?
Seems to fit most of the named chaos IC's, but as a blanket rule I am not happy about it as we can no longer throw a chump champion at the challenger while our IC goes to town on his squad.
I dont ever deny challenges even now.
But I think you're misunderstanding the rule. If you, WangoFett, have a unit in combat with a champion and an IC, and that unit gets challenged... Mind, they dont choose who in the unit they challenge, they just call out the challenge, and you choose who accepts/denies... If you, WangoFett, accept the challenge with your champion, then you have met the criteria of accepting all challenges. You did not deny the challenge with your IC, you just accepted with a different character. I dont think the rule is meant that if you have an IC and a champion that the champion cant accept the challenge, just that you can never deny a challenge
Basically you have to take an aspiring champion if you want to protect your IC from silly challenges. Annoying.
Phragonist wrote:
But I think you're misunderstanding the rule... ...If you, WangoFett, accept the challenge with your champion, then you have met the criteria of accepting all challenges.
Ah ok that's fine then. I thought the rule would force CSMIC's to accept challenges over any aspiring champion.
aka_mythos wrote:If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.
Renegades shouldn't be in the Chaos codex. They should just let the loyalist codex ally with daemons. If IG can do it why not SM?
I think renegades are more than just loyalists with extra spikes. I just don't think GW's ever thought through what Renegade space marines are and how they're distinguished from the Chaos Legions and rogue legionaries.
Renegades are former loyalists, and at an intermediate step towards corruption than the chaos legions... but the question is how far along their path to corruption are they?-If you want to represent renegade who just a day ago were loyalists, then yes a loyalist codex is the best way to represent them. That though only covers a relatively narrow view of renegades, while fluff shows even by the end of a renegade chapters first campaign they've started incorporating more attributes more in common with the Chaos Space Marines of the legions. I think you could only ever justify rules Renegades from the vantage of half way towards true chaos and further along.
Why the hell would renegades have all pre-Heresy equipment? In particular why would they have combi-bolters on the terminators and vehicles? Storm bolters are plentiful enough to pintle mount them on every single tank in the Imperium. And bolter weapons are apparently rugged enough that many of them are holy relics passed down through chapters for generations. I don't see how a renegade chapter would all of a sudden run out of storm bolters.
aka_mythos wrote:If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.
Renegades shouldn't be in the Chaos codex. They should just let the loyalist codex ally with daemons. If IG can do it why not SM?
I think renegades are more than just loyalists with extra spikes. I just don't think GW's ever thought through what Renegade space marines are and how they're distinguished from the Chaos Legions and rogue legionaries.
Renegades are former loyalists, and at an intermediate step towards corruption than the chaos legions... but the question is how far along their path to corruption are they?-If you want to represent renegade who just a day ago were loyalists, then yes a loyalist codex is the best way to represent them. That though only covers a relatively narrow view of renegades, while fluff shows even by the end of a renegade chapters first campaign they've started incorporating more attributes more in common with the Chaos Space Marines of the legions. I think you could only ever justify rules Renegades from the vantage of half way towards true chaos and further along.
Why the hell would renegades have all pre-Heresy equipment? In particular why would they have combi-bolters on the terminators and vehicles? Storm bolters are plentiful enough to pintle mount them on every single tank in the Imperium. And bolter weapons are apparently rugged enough that many of them are holy relics passed down through chapters for generations. I don't see how a renegade chapter would all of a sudden run out of storm bolters.
Yea, only the divine light of the Emperor is powerful enough to handle the recoil from firing a stormbolter, be it pintle mounted or handheld. Without his holy assistance, all of the uncounted millions of these weapons would immediately cease to function. The Inquisition knows of this, and a common test to find if a SM chapter has turned from the light is to simply have them demonstrate their stormbolters. The machine spirits of these devices do not lie, and know heresy more firmly than the vaunted paranoid herophobe Commissar Fuklaw.
aka_mythos wrote:If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.
Renegades shouldn't be in the Chaos codex. They should just let the loyalist codex ally with daemons. If IG can do it why not SM?
I think renegades are more than just loyalists with extra spikes. I just don't think GW's ever thought through what Renegade space marines are and how they're distinguished from the Chaos Legions and rogue legionaries.
Renegades are former loyalists, and at an intermediate step towards corruption than the chaos legions... but the question is how far along their path to corruption are they?-If you want to represent renegade who just a day ago were loyalists, then yes a loyalist codex is the best way to represent them. That though only covers a relatively narrow view of renegades, while fluff shows even by the end of a renegade chapters first campaign they've started incorporating more attributes more in common with the Chaos Space Marines of the legions. I think you could only ever justify rules Renegades from the vantage of half way towards true chaos and further along.
Why the hell would renegades have all pre-Heresy equipment? In particular why would they have combi-bolters on the terminators and vehicles? Storm bolters are plentiful enough to pintle mount them on every single tank in the Imperium. And bolter weapons are apparently rugged enough that many of them are holy relics passed down through chapters for generations. I don't see how a renegade chapter would all of a sudden run out of storm bolters.
Well my explanation was in the following paragraph you chose to omit to make your point. As I said:
aka_mythos wrote:...While their association with Chaos Legions might solely be in the form of a trade relationship, where the Renegades provide a steady stream of certain types of supplies and materiales into the Eye of Terror in exchange for other equipment.
Chaos flew into the eye of terror with 50% of the mechanicum and all the factory ships that supported the great crusade... irs easy to imagine they can turn out combi-weapons. Combi-bolters are an example of the sort of thing Renegades might want, if for no other reason than to have weapon commonality with their closest allies, it's a common enough occurrence in real life. You might even argue that stormbolters being a piece of fine-tuned machinery simple operates comparably to a combi-bolter when not well maintained.
aka_mythos wrote:If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.
Renegades shouldn't be in the Chaos codex. They should just let the loyalist codex ally with daemons. If IG can do it why not SM?
I think renegades are more than just loyalists with extra spikes. I just don't think GW's ever thought through what Renegade space marines are and how they're distinguished from the Chaos Legions and rogue legionaries.
Renegades are former loyalists, and at an intermediate step towards corruption than the chaos legions... but the question is how far along their path to corruption are they?-If you want to represent renegade who just a day ago were loyalists, then yes a loyalist codex is the best way to represent them. That though only covers a relatively narrow view of renegades, while fluff shows even by the end of a renegade chapters first campaign they've started incorporating more attributes more in common with the Chaos Space Marines of the legions. I think you could only ever justify rules Renegades from the vantage of half way towards true chaos and further along.
Why the hell would renegades have all pre-Heresy equipment? In particular why would they have combi-bolters on the terminators and vehicles? Storm bolters are plentiful enough to pintle mount them on every single tank in the Imperium. And bolter weapons are apparently rugged enough that many of them are holy relics passed down through chapters for generations. I don't see how a renegade chapter would all of a sudden run out of storm bolters.
Well my explanation was in the following paragraph you chose to omit to make your point. As I said:
aka_mythos wrote:... ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.
So evidently Chaos has the industrial infrastructure to fully outfit every single renegade chapter with pre-heresy combi weaponry, but all their Rhino-based vehicles use the modern MkIIC chassis salvaged from captured loyalist sources? Makes sense.
I don't think anyone who resorts to that sort of puerile posting is really all that worth listening to...
Abadabadoobadon wrote:So evidently Chaos has the industrial infrastructure to fully outfit every single renegade chapter with pre-heresy combi weaponry, but all their Rhino-based vehicles use the modern MkIIC chassis salvaged from captured loyalist sources? Makes sense.
I didn't write it.. your argument is also diversionary.
I've been insistent that the notion of representing Chaos Renegades is only worthwhile when they've been down the path to corruption for sometime... those just starting I admitted should just use loyalist rules. A loyalist set of rules might only be representative through the first campaign of a renegade chapter, to that end the persistent threat of Renegades such as the Red Corsairs in one where they've likely had more interactions with the Legions.
Back to infrastructure, if the fluff GW wrote about what Chaos fled into the eye of terror with is true, then yes they should have the infrastructure to both equip all renegade legions and themselves with Rhinos and combi-weapons. Why chaos marines simply salvage and use MKIIc rhinos can be for a any combonation of reasons... A) maybe the Rhinos the Imperium makes are simply better, having benefitted from thousands upon thousand of years of slow grinding R&D... B)the dark mechanicum is either unwilling or (C) to demanding in payment to justify a legion having them build them Rhinos.
Next consider even if a whole intact chapter went renegade they'd need no more than 200 combi-bolters to fully equip the appropriate units and their rhinos.
Then there is still my representational argument... that a poorly maintained storm bolter simply function comparably to a combi-bolter.
These are rational explanations. If the fluff says something, you can either rationalize or your stuck complaining that your fictional world is too fictional and imperfect because it doesn't follow you're fixed notion of what it should be.
aka_mythos wrote:I don't think anyone who resorts to that sort of puerile posting is really all that worth listening to...
Abadabadoobadon wrote:So evidently Chaos has the industrial infrastructure to fully outfit every single renegade chapter with pre-heresy combi weaponry, but all their Rhino-based vehicles use the modern MkIIC chassis salvaged from captured loyalist sources? Makes sense.
I didn't write it.. your argument is also diversionary.
I've been insistent that the notion of representing Chaos Renegades is only worthwhile when they've been down the path to corruption for sometime... those just starting I admitted should just use loyalist rules. A loyalist set of rules might only be representative through the first campaign of a renegade chapter, to that end the persistent threat of Renegades such as the Red Corsairs in one where they've likely had more interactions with the Legions.
Back to infrastructure, if the fluff GW wrote about what Chaos fled into the eye of terror with is true, then yes they should have the infrastructure to both equip all renegade legions and themselves with Rhinos and combi-weapons. Why chaos marines simply salvage and use MKIIc rhinos can be for a any combonation of reasons... A) maybe the Rhinos the Imperium makes are simply better, having benefitted from thousands upon thousand of years of slow grinding R&D... B)the dark mechanicum is either unwilling or (C) to demanding in payment to justify a legion having them build them Rhinos.
Next consider even if a whole intact chapter went renegade they'd need no more than 200 combi-bolters to fully equip the appropriate units and their rhinos.
Then there is still my representational argument... that a poorly maintained storm bolter simply function comparably to a combi-bolter.
These are rational explanations. If the fluff says something, you can either rationalize or your stuck complaining that your fictional world is too fictional and imperfect because it doesn't follow you're fixed notion of what it should be.
Actually, the correct answer is "The Chaos codex isn't really about renegades. All the equipment is pre-heresy legion equipment. GW just threw the renegades in as an excuse for why the codex is so piss poor at representing the legions. Also Chaos Rhinos are MkIIC because GW's business strategy is to move as many SM models as possible so they sell you the same kit except with spikes."
Abadabadoobadon wrote:Actually, the correct answer is "The Chaos codex isn't really about renegades. All the equipment is pre-heresy legion equipment. GW just threw the renegades in as an excuse for why the codex is so piss poor at representing the legions. Also Chaos Rhinos are MkIIC because GW's business strategy is to move as many SM models as possible so they sell you the same kit except with spikes."
Before you were arguing the explanation not the business decision of GW. This discussion started because I disagreed with your assertion that Renegades should equal using Loyalist codices... Which I've made clear I think is just as wrong as lumping them into the Chaos SM codex.
Renegades weren't just thrown in as excuse, their inclusion was simply to reinforce the notion of all units being available in allowing the mixed composition of cults that for all intents and purpose only rarely cooperate in cult-centric legions.
Legions will never be represented because that notion generally requires excluding unit choices from being allowed... That means making some kits less likely to be purchased which goes against GW policy and strategy. It'd be nice if they did, but unlikely.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Actually, the correct answer is "The Chaos codex isn't really about renegades. All the equipment is pre-heresy legion equipment. GW just threw the renegades in as an excuse for why the codex is so piss poor at representing the legions. Also Chaos Rhinos are MkIIC because GW's business strategy is to move as many SM models as possible so they sell you the same kit except with spikes."
Sadly, as much as it may be a horrible answer, I think Abadabadoobaddon probably closer to the truth with that than anything else we've been told to date!
Any further word or clarification on if Codex: CSM is coming out in September or October? It seems we have conflicting info floating around as to when it will be released, and when the Starter Set will be released. Would be pretty awesome for CSM players if it was the same month! (or not that awesome, given the hit on the wallet )
Minx wrote:They might think that there are not enough structured elements of the former legions left to warrant a special treatment.
Considering there was one chapter in the C:SM book that's even smaller than a typical chaos warband, yet still get's it's own rules with their special character, that answer is a load of complete and utter
If they are going to introduce whacked out [censored] for Space Marine armies like Thunderwolf Cavalry or Dread Knights, they can spend the 5 seconds it would take to have a cult specific unit in each of the organization chart slots in a Chaos Codex.
Minx wrote:They might think that there are not enough structured elements of the former legions left to warrant a special treatment.
Considering that the average Legion numbered into hundreds of thousands, if not higher....I'd say even if 5% remained structured that's still as much as 5 Loyalist SM chapters and more than a fair number of them.
Minx wrote:They might think that there are not enough structured elements of the former legions left to warrant a special treatment.
Never mind the fact that GW has structured entire events around the Legions return (Black Crusades) and constantly refrences them in modern text that GW churns out.
I'm sure GW feels the Legions are nothing more than a bug on the windshield.
aka_mythos wrote:Legions will never be represented because that notion generally requires excluding unit choices from being allowed... That means making some kits less likely to be purchased which goes against GW policy and strategy. It'd be nice if they did, but unlikely.
Excluding unit choices? In an edition in which SM and Tau are battle brothers? If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must acquit! The defense rests.
H.B.M.C. wrote:You're going to have to explain that one, Minx.
I'm not him, but I see it similar to how Aaron Dembski-Bowden sees it:
Bear with me a moment. I'm going to use the Night Lords, but this could apply to any Legion. And, yes, it could - no matter what the 3.5 limited rules said.
Warband 1 is a Night Lords warband, consisting entirely of Heresy-era warriors from the Eighth Legion who care nothing for Chaos, but realise their "side" in the Long War are - to some degree - serving the aims of the malignant intelligences within the warp. They couldn't care less about the larger Legion; living in a realm of eternal Hell with no laws of space and time have depleted ancient bonds to more daily, relevant allegiances. They don't hate their Legion, they're still Night Lords, it's just a bond that applied ten thousand years ago holds little relevance for them now. They know they can't trust their own brothers, because all Chaos Marines spend as much time fighting each other as they do the Imperium.
Warband 2 is a Night Lords warband, consisting entirely on Heresy-era warriors from the Eighth Legion who don't worship Chaos, but raise icons to gain the blessings of various gods whenever it suits their needs, such as summoning daemons to win a war, or demanding the Blood God grant them power for an upcoming battle. They don't worship Chaos, but they recognise it as a weapon, and don't hide from using it. They consider themselves Eighth Legion to the core, forever staying in touch with dozens of other Night Lords warbands, uniting every chance they get - much like those rare moments when a full Chapter goes to war, rather than 1 or 2 Companies.
Warband 3 is a Night Lords warband with many newly initiated Night Lords over the course of the centuries, as they've needed to repopulate their ranks after losses in battle. Some of their squads are ancient veterans, others are newer blood. They feel the same about the Legion as Warband 1.
Warband 4 is a Night Lords warband with a core of Night Lord warriors, allied with a Raptor Cult (several Raptor squads originally drawn from several Legions) and a Thousand Sons sorcerer, who commands a small phalanx of Rubric Marines.
Warband 5 is a Night Lords warband that enhances its desire to feed on fear (and its ability to inspire terror) by merging with daemons. They have several Possessed squads, and are led by a Daemon Prince. They even have a few daemon engines, in various forms, and prefer Daemon possessed tanks.
Warband 6 is a Night Lords warband that (either because of a need to survive or a mutual alliance of trust) have allied with an equally sized Iron Warrior warband, to create a new warband led by a council of Night Lord and Iron Warrior Champions.
Warband 7 is a Night Lords warband that has somehow discovered the exact mechanics of Berzerker surgery, and have several Night Lord Berzerker squads among their ranks. In all other ways, they're similar to Warbands 1, 2 or 3.
Warband 8 is a Night Lords warband much like any other, except that they're allied with the survivors of a newly-turned Renegade Chapter that they conquered in battle.
Warband 9 is a newly-turned Renegade Chapter.
Warband 10 is a collection of Nurgle-aligned warbands, such as at the Siege of Vraks, with squads drawn from the Purge, the Lords of Decay, the Apostles of Contagion, and the Death Guard.
Warband 11 calls itself the Cimmerian Nightfall. In the Heresy, they were Night Lords; they still consider themselves Night Lords and they're no different to warbands 1, 2 or 3. They just have their own warband name, much as most Chaos armies would have - the same way the Skulltakers and Berzerkers of Skallathrax are still World Eaters, and my own warband the Aphotican Oath are still Word Bearers.
Warband 12 calls itself the Sons of the Sunless World. In the Heresy they were Night Lords, but much as the Sanctified left (but are still allied with) the Word Bearers, the Sons of the Sunless World left the Eighth Legion to pursue their own breed of tactics and goals that loosely conflicted with the focus of most other nearby Night Lord warbands. They're Eighth Legion stock, but prefer a degree of independence beyond even the usual scattering of warbands throughout space and time. Their armour is almost exactly the same as the Night Lords, except for red helmets.
Warband 13 calls itself the Tears of the Fallen Father. In the Heresy, they were Night Lords, but in the years that followed, they've sworn against everything the Night Lords stood for, considering their original Legion to be failures and weaklings. Their armour is black and grey, and they have a completely new symbol on their shoulder guards.
Warband 14 is a collection of Marines from different Chapters and Legions temporarily (for one crusade or for thousands of years) allied under the banner of a single god, following a council of leaders or a single warlord.
Warband 15 is a collection of almost completely unattached Chaos Marines from various Legions and Chapters, united only by the whims of fate and the winds of the warp - much like Chaos itself determining Angron and 50,000 Berzerkers would ravage Armageddon int he First War.
And here's the thing.
A codex - and the players - need to recognise that every single one of those warbands is just as realistic, just as possible, and just as viable as all the others. Our codex needs to offer all of those options (and I'm not saying it'll be easy) to players so they can create any one of those without feeling like their army is weaker because they didn't take a specific "must have" unit.
It's not a case of "Legions or Renegades" or "Legions are unified or Legions are totally divided".
Shades of grey, guys. Remember, the gamer perception of self-identifying as "I'm a Dark Angels player" really isn't relevant, here. By the lore, and the way Chaos works in the Eye of Terror, the codex needs to go beyond that - and so do some of us. Yes, we can still say "I'm a Word Bearers player" - I say it myself - but there are nuances by the truckload in all this.
It's not so much that the the Legions don't exist anymore, it's that the continuum of chaos is so vast, and the legion archetypes are a very small subset on that continuum. There need not be a distinction between Legionnaire and Renegade, because chaos forces simply don't organize that way, There is no Traitor Legion or Renegade chapter HQ to report to, Chaos is made up of warbands headed by powerful leaders who work for their own benefit. If a codex says that World Eaters work one way, this is a disservice to anyone who has World Eaters that work another way.
If anything that shows how diverse Chaos is, not how they should get no Legion rules at all.
As I and many others have said before, Marines are considered versatile enough to warrant 6 different Codices (and there are even more Chapters within, if you include Special Chars). I don’t think Chaos needs this level of representation, but I do think Chaos can get by with a single Codex that includes modifications for Legion armies.
“They are all Warbands now!” isn’t an explanation. It’s a cop-out.
And in reference to ADB's final comments - I'm a Word Bearer player as well. And a World Eater player. And a Death Guard player. I'd like that to mean something again, rather than just being a paint-job.
It's not so much that Legions don't exist, it's that any rules for such would be needlessly restrictive.
If you want to make a legion of Emperor's Children, you should be able to do it. If you want to make a force of Emperor's Children with a heavy sorcery focus, you should be able to do that. If you want to play a force of Emperor's Children where the Lord has defected to Khornate worship and dominates his still Slaaneshi compatriots, you should be able to do that.
The book should not be, here's a bunch of generic stuff, or you can play using 9 different subsets with a few baubles added on.
Restrictive? Sorry. I heard that comment levelled at the 3.5 Codex. It was nonsense then and it’s nonsense now. It’d even go so far as to say that it’s complete bull gak.
The Legion rules, as they were, modified the standard list to allow people to represent the various traits and idiosyncrasies within the fluff via new special rules, the occasionally bit of extra wargear, and also some shifting of what was available. If you didn’t want the “restrictive” rules placed on you then you just played the basic list.
I had an army of Word Bearers where their leader had slowly, over time, dedicated himself to Khorne. I used the basic list, and I didn’t get the benefits of the Word Bearer rules. But I could always go back to them. My World Eaters and Death Guard always played as a Legion force, but occasionally I’d take a regular Chaos army that included Berzerkers and/or Plague Marines.
As flawed a perspective as it is, GW's perspective was that it was restrictive because if it prevented you from taking a single unit, it was definitively restrictive... GW only saw the the one unit each legions was effectively prohibited from taking but ignored the fact that the rule effectively created as many if not more units for each legion.
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:Legions will never be represented because that notion generally requires excluding unit choices from being allowed... That means making some kits less likely to be purchased which goes against GW policy and strategy. It'd be nice if they did, but unlikely.
Excluding unit choices? In an edition in which SM and Tau are battle brothers?...
Non sequiter. I don't really know what SM and Tau have to do with GW's perspective that Legions are limiting... Really if anything, SM and Tau being battle brothers just shows the lengths GW will go to remove as many restrictions as possible, even if it is to a non-sensical degree... while also showing how even the tiniest slivers of restriction are too much for their current mindset. I don't agree with either thing. I was just stating the reality.
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote: If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must acquit! The defense rests.
I sincerely believe this is the most idiotic form of condecension I've ever encountered.
aka_mythos wrote:As flawed a perspective as it is, GW's perspective was that it was restrictive because if it prevented you from taking a single unit, it was definitively restrictive... GW only saw the the one unit each legions was effectively prohibited from taking but ignored the fact that the rule effectively created as many if not more units for each legion.
Which is of course right.
Restricting access simply adds nothing for anyone and only frustration to those who are tied in by the restrictions.
If you disallow a largely Khorne-Force to be led by a Slannesh Sorcerer or Lord, it is a rule that is 100% meaningless to those that wouldn't have opted for that HQ-choice in the first place (for whatever reason) and only harms those that would have wanted to do so.
If you don't like Slannesh in your Khornate Army, don't take it. Simple enough. But restricting this option to those who would enjoy the combination is just spiteful for no good reason.
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aka_mythos wrote:
Renegades weren't just thrown in as excuse, their inclusion was simply to reinforce the notion of all units being available in allowing the mixed composition of cults that for all intents and purpose only rarely cooperate in cult-centric legions.
Renegades were thrown in for the same reason successor-chapters where thrown in for the loyalists: to provide creative space for people to play "Night-Lords-but-with-a-red-colour-scheme" and remain within the universe in a way that other games (e.g. Warmachine) don't allow. This "build-your-own" option is one of the best things GW ever did.
aka_mythos wrote:
Legions will never be represented because that notion generally requires excluding unit choices from being allowed... That means making some kits less likely to be purchased which goes against GW policy and strategy. It'd be nice if they did, but unlikely.
Why?
Disallowing choices you wouldn't take in the first place means nothing to you and only harms those who would enjoy those choices. There is no added "fluff-value" in restrictions, just indulgence to the most despicable holier-than-thou instincts of flawed egos that feel the need to one-up other players by playing with "more official" or "more canon" armies in a hobby which is actually meant to promote creativity, diversity and ingenuity.
The superior hobbyist is always the one who "makes his own" army, not the one slavishly pouring over BL-novels in a misguided quest to make his or her army more "legitimate".
Zweischneid wrote:Disallowing choices you wouldn't take in the first place means nothing to you and only harms those who would enjoy those choices. There is no added "fluff-value" in restrictions, ...
This is fine untill you realise that the purpose of a codex is also to make Lists that the community will find fair. I dread the day chaos get Codex: do what you want.
Zweischneid wrote:The superior hobbyist is always the one who "makes his own" army, not the one slavishly pouring over BL-novels in a misguided quest to make his or her army more "legitimate".
In your opinion, if you want to make a uber death death army of can't be beaten by simply picked all the best units from the codex enjoy yourself. In my opinion, seeing a hobbists holding true to the fluff brings tears of joy to my eyes and a warm fuzzy feeling inside knowing that they are doing it right.
aka_mythos wrote:Legions will never be represented because that notion generally requires excluding unit choices from being allowed... That means making some kits less likely to be purchased which goes against GW policy and strategy. It'd be nice if they did, but unlikely.
Excluding unit choices? In an edition in which SM and Tau are battle brothers?...
Non sequiter. I don't really know what SM and Tau have to do with GW's perspective that Legions are limiting... Really if anything, SM and Tau being battle brothers just shows the lengths GW will go to remove as many restrictions as possible, even if it is to a non-sensical degree... while also showing how even the tiniest slivers of restriction are too much for their current mindset. I don't agree with either thing. I was just stating the reality.
The error is in assuming that the inclusion of legion rules would mean restricting unit choices. If they included a rule saying Iron Warriors characters don't have to accept challenges how would that be restrictive? They didn't start emphasizing warbands to justify mixing different legion rules in the same army - they did it to justify eliminating them altogether. So a Word Bearers dark apostle is functionally no different from a Black Legion lord or a renegade SM captain? Really? Becuz dey iz warbanz? Ruleswise everybody is basically Black Legion.
To me, the problem is that GW isn't approaching the CSM book like they approach the SM book.
Taking Lysander to represent a "more fluffy" Imperial Fists list doesn't make that list more restrictive, it adds a small amount of flavor/fluff and moves on. The same can be said for Crimson FIsts, Sallies, etc.. GW is only giving and taking in the form of rules and not in models. Why can't this be done in CSM? Why isn't it done in CSM?
I'm 3000 miles from my SM codex and don't play SM (I play BA ), so work with me here.... Vulkan revolves around what again... Flamers, Meltas, and Thunder Hammers? So that gives a player something to focus on and build around. I'm guessing that Salamander armies have a high amount of these weapons to take advantage of these bonuses. Lysander is something Bolt-weapon related if I recall correctly. I'm guessing there's a way to take advatage of that too through lots of Bolt-weapon troops. Pedro does what... makes Sternguard Troops or Scoring? I bet there's a way to take advantage of that too.
Now, let's apply that to CSM. Let's say that John Doe wants to build a NIght Lords army. Why isn't there a CSMHQ choice for Night Lords that does something like; move Raptors to Troops or say give 1 more Fast Attack slot that MUST BE filled by a Raptor squad, make one Raptor squad scoring, allow 1 squad to deepstrike like DoA? Any number of tiny rules can be added to a unit or all units to indicate they are Legion Vets. How about an HQ choice for Word Bearers that reduces the cost of a second Sorc, or say an HQ for Iron Warriors that opens an extra Heavy Slot that must be used by Oblits. Something, ANYTHING that add some flavor/fluff. It wouldn't restrict anything in selling models and add just that little bit of flavor. Just like C:SM.
I'd like to address this comment made earlier;
living in a realm of eternal Hell with no laws of space and time have depleted ancient bonds to more daily
The problem of this statement lies IN the statement itself. You use this as proof that somehow the Legions have dispersed and no longer have these "ancient bonds". If the laws of space and time no longer apply, then 10,000 years could seem as one day. To their knowledge, they entered the Eye of Terror yesterday where they were just on Terra. So why would the Legion magically fall apart? The Iron Warriors maintain 2 planets inside the Eye. I'm pretty sure they have an "HQ" and know fully well who to "report to" in their CoC.
So as far as; Eye of Terror, Warp Time, Laws of Physics and Quantum Physics, etc, et al.... the pendulum swings both ways and can be used to argue equally one way or another.
aka_mythos wrote:Non sequiter. I don't really know what SM and Tau have to do with GW's perspective that Legions are limiting... Really if anything, SM and Tau being battle brothers just shows the lengths GW will go to remove as many restrictions as possible, even if it is to a non-sensical degree... while also showing how even the tiniest slivers of restriction are too much for their current mindset. I don't agree with either thing. I was just stating the reality.
The error is in assuming that the inclusion of legion rules would mean restricting unit choices. If they included a rule saying Iron Warriors characters don't have to accept challenges how would that be restrictive? They didn't start emphasizing warbands to justify mixing different legion rules in the same army - they did it to justify eliminating them altogether. So a Word Bearers dark apostle is functionally no different from a Black Legion lord or a renegade SM captain? Really? Becuz dey iz warbanz? Ruleswise everybody is basically Black Legion.
In the new book yes pretty much anyone who wants to play their Legion can play it like black legion if they want. There are Warsmiths, Dark Apostles, chaos cultists, etc... in the book, if the book were legion centric it insists on distinctions between the legions to be made, and these units most likely wouldn't be available to everyone. We are allowed to impose our own restrictions on our list building if we want, it doesn't GW has to do it for us. Not all Dark Apostles are Word Bearers, not all Warsmiths are Iron Warriors, and not all cultists are Alpha Legion agents; I'm sure there are chapters that have been led a stray by chaplains and techmarines alike... and plenty of chaos marines that have allied themselves with chaos cultists. I believe the Legions deserve their own rules more than loyalist chapters for no other reason than that they're organizationally larger and significant, but to do so in a single book is the real problem.
aka_mythos wrote:I believe the Legions deserve their own rules more than loyalist chapters for no other reason than that they're organizationally larger and significant, but to do so in a single book is the real problem.
This could be done at 1 page per Legion, at most.
Again, let's go to C:SM (Don't ask how I suddenly know despite just saying my SM rulebook is 3000 miles away).
Crimson Fist Army - Add Pedro (1 page) on that same page gives all the rules for Pedro and includes some additional rules that make sense for Crimson Fist fluff. Removes nothing in the model area. On to the next page.
Imperial Fist Army - Add Lysander (1 page) on that same page gives all the rules for Lysander and includes some additional rules that make sense for Imperial Fist fluff. Removes nothing in the model area. On to the next page.
Raven Guard Army - Add Kayvaan (1 page) on that same page gives all the rules for Kayvaan and includes some additional rules that make sense for Raven Guard fluff. Removes nothing in the model area. On to the next page.
Salamanders Army - Add Vulkan (1 page) on that same page gives all the rules for Vulkan and includes some additional rules that make sense for Salamanders fluff. Removes nothing in the model area. On to the next page.
See where this is going yet?
Now I will admit that this is pretty weak considering that at least 50% of each of those pages is background/fluff and it's a lame attempt at what *could* be done. On the other hand, it's something and something is more than nothing. It's an effort to add variety, a half-assed effort, but CSM don't even get that.
Why can't it be:
Iron Warriors - Add Honsou (1 page) on that same page gives all the rules for Honsou and includes some additional rules that make sense for Iron Warriors fluff. Removes nothing in the model area. On to the next page.
Night Lords - Add Talos (1 page) on that same page gives all the rules for Talos and includes some additional rules that make sense for Night Lords fluff. Removes nothing in the model area. On to the next page.
And so on. It's not that hard. Hell GW could almost Cut & Paste mirror chapters if they wanted to be really lazy since in theory they made the SM and CSM mirrors of each other. GW has access to dozens of different rules that could be applied to CSM evenly as they have to SM. I would LOVE to have an IW codex. It probably will never happen. Would I be appeased with a one page nod to my Legion with a couple rules changes? Hell yes.
Hmm, looking at the new rumors, its seems like CSM might be ok (slightly cheaper then C:SM, hopefully Bolter/BP/CCW and 1 special weapon for 5) but 1 point for ATSKNF really makes Codex marines a more solid troop choice. Cult marines are looking quite overpriced and, by extension, marked termies are likely then overpriced (and almost certainly won't have access to SS or cyclones, making them, again, subpar). The wannabee assault terminators with morphing weapons seem kind of pointless unless they are cheap.
Cheap cultists are a meh add on since loyalists can just ally in IG, and the flier looks like a chaos stormraven in stats.
Non random possessed is a nice touch, but it looks like overall they are going to remain a pretty mediocre to poor codex in terms of powerlevel which will probably not age well.
jmurph wrote:Hmm, looking at the new rumors, its seems like CSM might be ok (slightly cheaper then C:SM, hopefully Bolter/BP/CCW and 1 special weapon for 5) but 1 point for ATSKNF really makes Codex marines a more solid troop choice. Cult marines are looking quite overpriced and, by extension, marked termies are likely then overpriced (and almost certainly won't have access to SS or cyclones, making them, again, subpar). The wannabee assault terminators with morphing weapons seem kind of pointless unless they are cheap.
Cheap cultists are a meh add on since loyalists can just ally in IG, and the flier looks like a chaos stormraven in stats.
Non random possessed is a nice touch, but it looks like overall they are going to remain a pretty mediocre to poor codex in terms of powerlevel which will probably not age well.
I do not know about this. I have faith in Phil Kelly. He did amazing things for my Vampire Counts and my wife's Dark Eldar.
aka_mythos wrote:...but to do so in a single book is the real problem.
No it's not.
It's been done.
Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Word Bearers all got a page in the 3.5 'Dex. Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard all got roughly 2 pages (plus a special char) as they chose to put all the God-specific Wargear/Psychic powers in that section rather than with the rest of the armoury.
jmurph wrote:Hmm, looking at the new rumors, its seems like CSM might be ok (slightly cheaper then C:SM, hopefully Bolter/BP/CCW and 1 special weapon for 5) but 1 point for ATSKNF really makes Codex marines a more solid troop choice. Cult marines are looking quite overpriced and, by extension, marked termies are likely then overpriced (and almost certainly won't have access to SS or cyclones, making them, again, subpar). The wannabee assault terminators with morphing weapons seem kind of pointless unless they are cheap.
Cheap cultists are a meh add on since loyalists can just ally in IG, and the flier looks like a chaos stormraven in stats.
Non random possessed is a nice touch, but it looks like overall they are going to remain a pretty mediocre to poor codex in terms of powerlevel which will probably not age well.
And this is my greatest fear, the 4th edition rule book was mediocre from the start and aged horribly with only one viable competitive build that was played to death. This book can "balanced" when it comes out,but balance means nothing when books like Space Wolves and Gray Knights (and latter the Necron Update) came out inherently broken, the former only becoming less over powered due to the 6th edition transition. If chaos does have a "power creep" when it comes out then it is already behind by books more than a year and a half old. A gap that will continue to widen as new codexes come out, especially if they are written by Ward who has no semblance of restraint when writing broken books. That's just in terms of competitiveness. I don't even want to comment on the lack of legion rules and new special characters which is practically an insult considering how much they put into C:SM.
aka_mythos wrote:...but to do so in a single book is the real problem.
No it's not.
It's been done.
Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Word Bearers all got a page in the 3.5 'Dex. Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard all got roughly 2 pages (plus a special char) as they chose to put all the God-specific Wargear/Psychic powers in that section rather than with the rest of the armoury.
And it worked fine.
In context I'm saying its a problem with GW's mentality. That doing it in a single book creates exclsusion within the book, that goes against GW's current philosophy, creating the problem that makes a single book not feasible. Maybe I should clarify, its not feasible to GW. Its not worth it to me.
Even still I think its incredibly difficult to both balance doing the concept of each legion justice while simultaneously restricting the rules to a special characters, an HQ, or individual pages... you're still talking about 8 or 9 different sets of rules that should fundamentally alter the way the army plays. It would be more than any other individual army gets and I think it clutters a book to do it that way. I want to see Legion rules, I just don't think this is the best way. While confined to a single book, I think the approach of the new book is best, by simply allowing these different previously unique units together... the only inclusion the single book approach needs are reccomendations as to what a player should decide they should or shouldn't use.
I don't think the 3.5ed codex did the legions justice and I don't think it went far enough. I think it was a cluttered book that offered too much relative to every other army. I want to see several separate books for Chaos but in the absence of that I don't think its worth characterizing each legion in such a narrow way. While I believe the Legions should be better represented I don't really have an interest in playing such a narrowly described army. I play Ravenguard and never use Kayvaan, I play Emperors Children and never use Lucius...why should my army be so narrowly defined by a single page. In 3.5ed, I wanted to play a Iron Warriors army with Cultists... this codex will let me do what the 3.5ed one didn't. The free form format allows the player to dictate the narrative of their army, as opposed to the expectation that GW should say "every _____ army is pretty much this."
So wait if I want to get a special rool I have to build my army a certain way?
I'm absolutly fine with making a thousand sons army, I just don't want to not be able to take oblitorators. If I can and you want to give me some other special rule with no draw backs I'm fine. But handing out special rules with draw backs is stupid... my 2 cents
Taking Lysander, Pedro, Vulkan, etc. removes NOTHING from the SM army list in the way of models or units. It merely substitutes certain rules (already in the game) for other rules. This is turn gives each variation some amount of flavor.
Why can't FOC slots be slid around by increasing one while decreasing another, remove some demonic gift here and replace it with relentless there, etc. etc. etc.
aka_mythos wrote:...but to do so in a single book is the real problem.
No it's not.
It's been done.
Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Word Bearers all got a page in the 3.5 'Dex. Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard all got roughly 2 pages (plus a special char) as they chose to put all the God-specific Wargear/Psychic powers in that section rather than with the rest of the armoury.
And it was far and away the worst mess GW ever put out.
protonhunter wrote:So wait if I want to get a special rool I have to build my army a certain way?
I'm absolutly fine with making a thousand sons army, I just don't want to not be able to take oblitorators. If I can and you want to give me some other special rule with no draw backs I'm fine. But handing out special rules with draw backs is stupid... my 2 cents
There has to be a drawback otherwise there is a drawback to not taking the special rule.
TalonZahn wrote:Mythos must just skip right over my posts.
The Space Marine Codex ALREADY does this.
Why can the CSM Codex not do the same?
Taking Lysander, Pedro, Vulkan, etc. removes NOTHING from the SM army list in the way of models or units. It merely substitutes certain rules (already in the game) for other rules. This is turn gives each variation some amount of flavor.
Why can't FOC slots be slid around by increasing one while decreasing another, remove some demonic gift here and replace it with relentless there, etc. etc. etc.
It's really not that hard.
Sorry, I didn't address your post directly. In general I think in response directly to you I'd reiterate this:
aka_mythos wrote:...I think its incredibly difficult to both balance doing the concept of each legion justice while simultaneously restricting the rules to a special characters, an HQ, or individual pages... you're still talking about 8 or 9 different sets of rules that should fundamentally alter the way the army plays....
...I want to see several separate books for Chaos but in the absence of that I don't think its worth characterizing each legion in such a narrow way. While I believe the Legions should be better represented I don't really have an interest in playing such a narrowly described army. I play Ravenguard and never use Kayvaan, I play Emperors Children and never use Lucius...why should my army be so narrowly defined by a single page. In 3.5ed, I wanted to play a Iron Warriors army with Cultists... this codex will let me do what the 3.5ed one didn't. The free form format allows the player to dictate the narrative of their army, as opposed to the expectation that GW should say "every _____ army is pretty much this."
Additionally, while I like the characters in C:SM I don't like their characterization of their chapters and I think if GW treated Chaos in exactly the same way I'd be more disappointed. Such a minimal effort doesn't seem worthwhile.
aka_mythos wrote:...but to do so in a single book is the real problem.
No it's not.
It's been done.
Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Word Bearers all got a page in the 3.5 'Dex. Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard all got roughly 2 pages (plus a special char) as they chose to put all the God-specific Wargear/Psychic powers in that section rather than with the rest of the armoury.
And it was far and away the worst mess GW ever put out.
Fixed that for you...
What exactly made it worse than any other codex that GW has put out? There may have been a problem with allowing four heavy support choices in one army, but I never noticed it since I didn't play Iron Warriors. Even if GW want to continue with their policy of streamlining codices for no reason, it'd leave at most sixteen pages in the codex that someone wouldn't use if they went with a single legion; one page each for legion specific rules, one page if they gave every legion a SC. I'm pretty sure that there are more than sixteen pages of SCs in the vanilla SM codex, and someone going with a single chapter wouldn't touch those either.
aka_mythos wrote:Additionally, while I like the characters in C:SM I don't like their characterization of their chapters and I think if GW treated Chaos in exactly the same way I'd be more disappointed. Such a minimal effort doesn't seem worthwhile.
So you ARE reading all the posts.
I also mentioned that. However, I would settle for anything over nothing.
The special rules aren't always army wide either. They affect a few units or even a specfic unit. I just don't buy the "we don't have room" or " we don't want to exclude models" argument though. It's obvious they want to sell more minis and that's why allies are here again. Personally, I'm more likely to buy more models if they can be properly included and used by my armies of choice. Not just some bolted on crap.
There has to be a medium between 3.5 and the current book that GW can settle on. It would just take a few extra pages IMHO and they are just too lazy to do it.
Additionally, while I like the characters in C:SM I don't like their characterization of their chapters and I think if GW treated Chaos in exactly the same way I'd be more disappointed. Such a minimal effort doesn't seem worthwhile.
Yes because I'd rather have some minimal effort over Complete and Utter Nothing
Because pretty much the issue is this, I cannot take actual equipment for my non-cult units to represent my army. My havocs likely aren't going to get blastmasters, my terminators not doomsirens and sonic blasters.
So pretty much the only way to play is Black Legion, and as much as I enjoy them that noise.
There is no such things as an Emporers Children Warband led by a Khorn Warrior, that's simply another Black Legion warband. Bezerkers led by a sorcerer? Black Legion.
The codex would be perfect as an actual Black Legion codex. For the rest of us who actually want their little blurb, or special character bonus to their army just to show even the hint of flavor, the hint of choice, the hint of something deeper beyond. "There's nothing to represent your legion at all, have a Black Legion Warband for all your troubles!"
Additionally, while I like the characters in C:SM I don't like their characterization of their chapters and I think if GW treated Chaos in exactly the same way I'd be more disappointed. Such a minimal effort doesn't seem worthwhile.
Yes because I'd rather have some minimal effort over Complete and Utter Nothing
Because pretty much the issue is this, I cannot take actual equipment for my non-cult units to represent my army. My havocs likely aren't going to get blastmasters, my terminators not doomsirens and sonic blasters.
So pretty much the only way to play is Black Legion, and as much as I enjoy them that noise.
There is no such things as an Emporers Children Warband led by a Khorn Warrior, that's simply another Black Legion warband. Bezerkers led by a sorcerer? Black Legion.
The codex would be perfect as an actual Black Legion codex. For the rest of us who actually want their little blurb, or special character bonus to their army just to show even the hint of flavor, the hint of choice, the hint of something deeper beyond. "There's nothing to represent your legion at all, have a Black Legion Warband for all your troubles!"
In fairness, they could also pass as Word Bearers if you didn't know the Word Bearers very well.
Certain combinations can't work (usually revolving around Khorne). But Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion more or less can have any combination. There are sorcerers of Nurgle even though Nurgle is the enemy God of Tzeentch. There are Noise Marines in the Word Bearers. There are bezerker Iron Warriors.
Yes, the codex will probably be based around Black Legion as the "vanilla", but for the CSM Legions to maintain their fluff and individuality this is necessary.
CSM 3.5 wasn't a fraction as bad as 7th ed fantasy vampire counts & chaos deamons. Anytime somebody claims 3.5 csm was the most overpowered book ever released by gw their credibility goes out the window. 3.5 csm wasn't any worse than gk were in 5th ed (turns out they were really a balanced 6th ed book), and csm 4th ed was way more broken in 4th ed than 3.5 was. Duel lash + oblits + pm utterly dominated the 4th ed meta, and the csm community was unhappy with their 1 single power build because most csm players don't play black legion.
That being said gw tends to be more streamlined now. What csm players want is the variety and fluff of 3.5 with the streamlined rules of 5th ed codex sm.
Could there be Berzerker iron warriors? Yes, but they would not be troops and be regulated to elite, thus is the way of Chaos Undivided. However unless Warsmiths are actual HQ's, they cannot even be compromised as that, as a full Warsmith is supposed to be akin to a Chapter Master in rank of a Grand Iron Warrior Company. Warsmiths as it sounds like now is more akin to a Techpriest Enginseer, or an elite based Techmarine.
There are sorcerers of Nurgle even though Nurgle is the enemy God of Tzeentch.
The warp is not completely under the command of Tzeentch, it beckons to those who call, and the only exception is Khorne, who you usually have to revoke your sorcerers ways or be punished by him.
There are Noise Marines in the Word Bearers.
The only real way this can happen is if it is a mercenary Warband that has decided to join up, unlike berzerkers who can come from any creed that show an intense devotion to Khorne, Noise Marines are nearly exclusive to Slaaneshi based warbands such as the Emporer's Children, or the Flawless host.
Basically i just hope that the dex is well written with lots of different competative but not OP builds.
If it is OP then neckbeards will swarm to the new dex like fleas, and long term chaos players will be associated in the minds of others with the legion of neckbeards all playing hastily assembled grey plastic minis of doom. This i do not welcome readily.
If legions get a nod via special characters that unlock unit types as troops I will be happy. I think the way that they did it with C:SM was well done. There are so many people wishlisting different stuff that it is likely that GW will upset a portion of the player base, no matter what they do. We are all so set in our proverbial ways.
I am still really looking forward to the release of this dex. If cultists can take marks and be formed up in powerblobs i will be really happy. And ... if as rumored TYphus will turn said cultist blob into zombies i will be overjoyed.
Either way, Chaos needs a new dex and some new units and models will be fun.
Sorry my last post was meant to be snarky and point out that no matter what happens there will probably be 1 or 2 power builds and every other chapter will feel butthurt that it wasn't them.
My main point. Half the legions are in warbands though. Even if you say that can't be the excuse for everything it is an excuse for a lot of the broken up factions, and we're sorry that you don't like being shoe horned into black legion but I really don't care that you want another page cluttering up the book for extra special rules dedicated to specific legions that for the most part don't have a solid composition anymore. We can't even do the chose this HQ and get this because half our HQ's are exiled from their own legion. If you feel so dedicated to fluff that you need to build your own Iron Warriors legion do so and make up rules for them there problem solved. You're not asking to have legions be competitive anyway so why do you need to bring them to tournaments? Again make your own rules and role with it.
protonhunter wrote:Sorry my last post was meant to be snarky and point out that no matter what happens there will probably be 1 or 2 power builds and every other chapter will feel butthurt that it wasn't them.
My main point. Half the legions are in warbands though. Even if you say that can't be the excuse for everything it is an excuse for a lot of the broken up factions, and we're sorry that you don't like being shoe horned into black legion but I really don't care that you want another page cluttering up the book for extra special rules dedicated to specific legions that for the most part don't have a solid composition anymore. We can't even do the chose this HQ and get this because half our HQ's are exiled from their own legion. If you feel so dedicated to fluff that you need to build your own Iron Warriors legion do so and make up rules for them there problem solved. You're not asking to have legions be competitive anyway so why do you need to bring them to tournaments? Again make your own rules and role with it.
Did I ever once say I asked them to not be competitive? Did I say I wanted them to become some weak sort of trash that would be overshadowed by even the worthless 4.0 dex? I'm sorry but no, I want them competitive, I want them strong, I want them to be like 4.0 orks, decent even two editions above and still worthwhile within the editions. I like my fluff, but I want them competitive as well with decent options and various equipment, like any actual codex should be.
But I still want my legion rules to return, so I will simply disagree with your opinion on that.
protonhunter wrote:Sorry my last post was meant to be snarky and point out that no matter what happens there will probably be 1 or 2 power builds and every other chapter will feel butthurt that it wasn't them.
My main point. Half the legions are in warbands though. Even if you say that can't be the excuse for everything it is an excuse for a lot of the broken up factions, and we're sorry that you don't like being shoe horned into black legion but I really don't care that you want another page cluttering up the book for extra special rules dedicated to specific legions that for the most part don't have a solid composition anymore. We can't even do the chose this HQ and get this because half our HQ's are exiled from their own legion. If you feel so dedicated to fluff that you need to build your own Iron Warriors legion do so and make up rules for them there problem solved. You're not asking to have legions be competitive anyway so why do you need to bring them to tournaments? Again make your own rules and role with it.
Did I ever once say I asked them to not be competitive? Did I say I wanted them to become some weak sort of trash that would be overshadowed by even the worthless 4.0 dex? I'm sorry but no, I want them competitive, I want them strong, I want them to be like 4.0 orks, decent even two editions above and still worthwhile within the editions. I like my fluff, but I want them competitive as well with decent options and various equipment, like any actual codex should be.
But I still want my legion rules to return, so I will simply disagree with your opinion on that.
Yea, I'm going to have to agree with Zebio here.
I mean, your whole argument (proto) is 50% based on strawmans (Legions are now Warbands) and 50% based on "I don't care, and your crap clutters up my book.".
If you actually believe the majority of what you posted, you need to read up on 40k Lore a lot more. The names I used in my posts are from 999.M41 which is right around.... now in the 40k universe.
As it stands we will just have to agree to disagree.
Unless of course you want to come back with an actual argument based in reality.
The issue is that even by modest estimates it's 9-15 pages set aside... that's 10+% of the book. GW can't even get everything about a single unit onto a single page anymore so I'm only inclined to believe the page count would climb and GW decide it won't fit bring it back to where it is.
How many pages are the fantasy hardback books now? That's probably the typical region they're going to shoot for page number wise.
Mind you, not being a chaos player, the way I see it, is the best way to do legion-ey stuff, is to take the space marine special characters chapter bonuses and chuck it under the Chaos Lord entry. If the Imperial Guard Command HQ Squad can have a page worth of options (including several different thematic 'styles' eg carapace, camo cloaks), I don't see why Chaos couldn't.
Then you add in all the more unusual characters that may do some of the same things, EG the Warsmiths.
aka_mythos wrote:The issue is that even by modest estimates it's 9-15 pages set aside... that's 10+% of the book.
And what we can't figure out is where you're pulling this figure from because - again - it's already been done. Cut out the wargear, which we know would be scattered around the book and then the rest put into a wargear section, we're looking at 1 page per Legion (which if you take out Wargear and Special Chars is exactly what it was in 3.5). That's 8 pages. It's not exactly difficult.
Your dilemmas, mythos, are false ones - obstacles of conjecture that you've constructed for yourself when they don't need to be there. 1 page per Legion is it.
1. Two paragraphs summarising the Legion’s history with the Heresy. 2. Two paragraphs to update them to 999.M41. 3. Two paragraphs to explain their fighting style. (That’s the first column on the page taken care of). 4. Section for special organisational rules. 5. Section for special rules. 6. Potential option/s if there are any that should be kept to that page.
Remove one or two paragraphs of flavour text for any required B&W sketches.
aka_mythos wrote:The issue is that even by modest estimates it's 9-15 pages set aside... that's 10+% of the book.
And what we can't figure out is where you're pulling this figure from because - again - it's already been done. Cut out the wargear, which we know would be scattered around the book and then the rest put into a wargear section, we're looking at 1 page per Legion (which if you take out Wargear and Special Chars is exactly what it was in 3.5). That's 8 pages. It's not exactly difficult.
Your dilemmas, mythos, are false ones - obstacles of conjecture that you've constructed for yourself when they don't need to be there. 1 page per Legion is it.
...
First I don't necessarily believe that goes far enough to representing the Legions. Considering that the book already contains the distinctive untis of each Legion, the difference between this book and 3.5ed is what a single USR? *Shrug* maybe thats arguement for why it'd be easy to fit it in but I think the Chaos Legions should be more than that.
Second, its not my false dilemma, its GW's self imposed dilemma... I think GW is the main obstacle, where they are dictating design philosphy and format such that presently the way they would present it wouldn't necessarily fit in a single book.
aka_mythos wrote:GW can't even get everything about a single unit onto a single page anymore so I'm only inclined to believe the page count would climb and GW decide it won't fit...
Could it be cut down, edited, reformatted, scaled, or otherwise modified to work?-Yes, but I'm trying to say such a version wouldn't be in line with how GW presents army changing rules.
Not only would it be just 8 pages, but those 8 pages would be the best part of the book in the eyes of a huge swathe of the people they want to sell it to. If GW really can't afford the paper they should cut back elsewhere.
I don't see how anyone could argue against the book accommodating the number one request from CSM players in addition to the existing bland mix and match affair. Are they afraid that allowing the mere possibility of a themed list would make their lists look bad?
I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say that if the book doesn't allow the fielding of proper themed legion lists, while also allowing existing unthemed lists, then it is a failure. There's nothing stopping them from doing this. They've done it before.
Alas in recent years they've shown themselves quite willing to make similarly baffling mistakes. I've noticed a number of complaints now that allies are back that you can't build a generic Inquisitorial force without also including a mandatory squad of Grey Knights. It wouldn't have undermined Grey Knight players one bit to have simply allowed the possibility of straight inquisitorial forces, but they put in a restriction that invalidated everyone who'd gone that way in the previous codex. It seems that there are people at GW that not only have a preferred vision for each faction, but want to actively stamp out the alternatives.
But then here you have people arguing that bland mix and match lists should be the only ones possible, because it would be restrictive to also include 8 pages of rules to build themed lists. Bonkers.
Temujin wrote:Not only would it be just 8 pages, but those 8 pages would be the best part of the book in the eyes of a huge swathe of the people they want to sell it to. If GW really can't afford the paper they should cut back elsewhere.
I don't see how anyone could argue against the book accommodating the number one request from CSM players in addition to the existing bland mix and match affair. Are they afraid that allowing the mere possibility of a themed list would make their lists look bad?
I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say that if the book doesn't allow the fielding of proper themed legion lists, while also allowing existing unthemed lists, then it is a failure. There's nothing stopping them from doing this. They've done it before.
I think it is baffling GW doesn't do a Legion book to accomodate fans... Then again what's "proper"... its easy to say legions should be in the book but what exactly, beyond what is in the book are people asking for? They've included cultists, dark apostles, and warsmiths... things that traditionally identified 3 legions... they have markable units... they're allowing certain characters to make Cult marines troops... The stuff thats lacking from 3.5 codex is separate fluff (which could always still be in the book), veteran skills... daemons and strict cult terminators. It isn't that much and it really is just a case of GW leaving it upto players to make their theme. I do believe that they believe they're trying to be accomodating, I just don't believe those relatively small additions add anything of thematic importance.
protonhunter wrote:Sorry my last post was meant to be snarky and point out that no matter what happens there will probably be 1 or 2 power builds and every other chapter will feel butthurt that it wasn't them.
My main point. Half the legions are in warbands though. Even if you say that can't be the excuse for everything it is an excuse for a lot of the broken up factions, and we're sorry that you don't like being shoe horned into black legion but I really don't care that you want another page cluttering up the book for extra special rules dedicated to specific legions that for the most part don't have a solid composition anymore. We can't even do the chose this HQ and get this because half our HQ's are exiled from their own legion. If you feel so dedicated to fluff that you need to build your own Iron Warriors legion do so and make up rules for them there problem solved. You're not asking to have legions be competitive anyway so why do you need to bring them to tournaments? Again make your own rules and role with it.
Did I ever once say I asked them to not be competitive? Did I say I wanted them to become some weak sort of trash that would be overshadowed by even the worthless 4.0 dex? I'm sorry but no, I want them competitive, I want them strong, I want them to be like 4.0 orks, decent even two editions above and still worthwhile within the editions. I like my fluff, but I want them competitive as well with decent options and various equipment, like any actual codex should be.
But I still want my legion rules to return, so I will simply disagree with your opinion on that.
Yea, I'm going to have to agree with Zebio here.
I mean, your whole argument (proto) is 50% based on strawmans (Legions are now Warbands) and 50% based on "I don't care, and your crap clutters up my book.".
If you actually believe the majority of what you posted, you need to read up on 40k Lore a lot more. The names I used in my posts are from 999.M41 which is right around.... now in the 40k universe.
As it stands we will just have to agree to disagree.
Unless of course you want to come back with an actual argument based in reality.
My arguement is 50% strawmans aka some of the legions aren't a cohesive fighting force any more with out central leadership and therefore world eaters legion rules unlocked by simply chosing Kharne the Betrayer would be stupid because 1 they don't fight as a team and 2 because KHARNE DOES NOT LEAD THEM. I am totally against special rules being unlocked just because you say that it's a certain legion or because you painted them blue gold so they must be 1k sons (sorry can't use Ahriman he's not apart of the legion anymore). You should have to fufill a certain requirments such as taking a specific HQ that's not just a chaos champion model that you desided this 1 game to have the wargear that unlocks that legion.
The other 50% is me saying, yes, stop cluttering up the rule book with a (at minimum) 8 page section most players wont use and is impractical to impliment. Not only that but if you intend for HQ's to unlock these legions you need 8 new HQ choices with 8 new models with 8 more pages (maybe 7 typhus could arguably still be with the death guard). There is also no way either that they wouldn't give black legion led by failbandon extra special rules too so that's another at least 2 pages here IMHO cuz they'z the coolest. So we've racked up a total of 18 pages here guys?
aka_mythos wrote:
Temujin wrote:Not only would it be just 8 pages, but those 8 pages would be the best part of the book in the eyes of a huge swathe of the people they want to sell it to. If GW really can't afford the paper they should cut back elsewhere.
I don't see how anyone could argue against the book accommodating the number one request from CSM players in addition to the existing bland mix and match affair. Are they afraid that allowing the mere possibility of a themed list would make their lists look bad?
I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say that if the book doesn't allow the fielding of proper themed legion lists, while also allowing existing unthemed lists, then it is a failure. There's nothing stopping them from doing this. They've done it before.
I think it is baffling GW doesn't do a Legion book to accomodate fans... Then again what's "proper"... its easy to say legions should be in the book but what exactly, beyond what is in the book are people asking for? They've included cultists, dark apostles, and warsmiths... things that traditionally identified 3 legions... they have markable units... they're allowing certain characters to make Cult marines troops... The stuff thats lacking from 3.5 codex is separate fluff (which could always still be in the book), veteran skills... daemons and strict cult terminators. It isn't that much and it really is just a case of GW leaving it upto players to make their theme. I do believe that they believe they're trying to be accomodating, I just don't believe those relatively small additions add anything of thematic importance.
Edit for this ^^^^^ GW doesn't want to have to hold our hands rules wise to make fluff centeric armies. We have the books (aka fluff) and the tools (Models) to make fluff armies on our own. Just selfimpose restrictions on what you can and can't take. Again they weren't meant to be competitive lists if they were supper fluffy anyway.
the issue I have with the lack of a legions book is the simple fact that each SM book comes out with a new unit every revision. And not just the the main book, but each side chapter book as well.
Now there are holes with the legion book, as you said. But why are there holes in the choas book when we see whacked out things like dreadknights and thunderwolf cavalry get added to SM where Chaos gets nothing?
Why can't we get sorcerers on discs for fast attack? Battlemages that have harder hitting spells in heavy? Truly elite coven units large spells and such in elite?
In 5 years all we got was warsmiths and reworded dreadnaughts. In the 5 years before that all we got were defilers iirc?
Nvs wrote:the issue I have with the lack of a legions book is the simple fact that each SM book comes out with a new unit every revision. And not just the the main book, but each side chapter book as well.
Now there are holes with the legion book, as you said. But why are there holes in the choas book when we see whacked out things like dreadknights and thunderwolf cavalry get added to SM where Chaos gets nothing?
Why can't we get sorcerers on discs for fast attack? Battlemages that have harder hitting spells in heavy? Truly elite coven units large spells and such in elite?
In 5 years all we got was warsmiths and reworded dreadnaughts. In the 5 years before that all we got were defilers iirc?
This is a completely diffrent arguement. To release models as much as they do for vanilla SM they'd need to break our books up into diffrent books dedicated to diffrent legions. I think that'd be cool but it would require them to release so many power armor books it wouldn't even be funny and xenos players would rightly call foul. I'm hoping that WD takes center stage again and starts to release mini dexs that would allow players to build supper fluffy armys with a new model here or there (hey a man can dream right)
Nvs wrote:Now there are holes with the legion book, as you said. But why are there holes in the choas book when we see whacked out things like dreadknights and thunderwolf cavalry get added to SM where Chaos gets nothing?
Why can't we get sorcerers on discs for fast attack? Battlemages that have harder hitting spells in heavy? Truly elite coven units large spells and such in elite?
Its the shear size and variety of Chaos... when an army has to be written so broadly as too cover as many flavors it leaves little room to get specific and give depth. This is why if you ever want to see Chaos Legions recieving treatment even boardering that, they'd need more than the one book.
Nvs wrote:
In 5 years all we got was warsmiths and reworded dreadnaughts. In the 5 years before that all we got were defilers iirc?
Chaos has certainly gotten the short end of the stick... At least now we're getting a whole slew of new units.
Please get lost if you've nothing interesting to contribute.
So might you and go play 3.5 if you liked it so much.
That book was in no uncertain way the abyssal low-point of 25 years of 40K history. There is no need to return to it in either concept, inspiration or design philosophy. It was page by page, letter by letter a fanboyish fluff-hack of the worst sort with absolutely no consideration for the game in any way. It was honey drawing the worst of the ugly urges this hobby sometimes brings out in certain players, intransparent to a fault, convoluted, overtly-complex for no reason and a nightmare for anyone to play against who didn't study the book in minute detail day in and day out.
There is a reason GW returned (with perhaps too much enthusiasm) to the minimalist-philosophy of early 3rd Edition in their 4th Edition books. That reason was Chaos 3.5. It is literally the only game extension that "truly" broke the game (though this moniker has seen some inflationary use).
@All: Please keep the discussion here ON-TOPIC. Feel free to start threads about older editions of 40k or whatever else in the appropriate parts of the forum (for example, 40k General Discussion). Thanks!
protonhunter wrote:
My arguement is 50% strawmans aka some of the legions aren't a cohesive fighting force any more with out central leadership and therefore world eaters legion rules unlocked by simply chosing Kharne the Betrayer would be stupid because 1 they don't fight as a team and 2 because KHARNE DOES NOT LEAD THEM. I am totally against special rules being unlocked just because you say that it's a certain legion or because you painted them blue gold so they must be 1k sons (sorry can't use Ahriman he's not apart of the legion anymore). You should have to fufill a certain requirments such as taking a specific HQ that's not just a chaos champion model that you desided this 1 game to have the wargear that unlocks that legion.
The other 50% is me saying, yes, stop cluttering up the rule book with a (at minimum) 8 page section most players wont use and is impractical to impliment. Not only that but if you intend for HQ's to unlock these legions you need 8 new HQ choices with 8 new models with 8 more pages (maybe 7 typhus could arguably still be with the death guard). There is also no way either that they wouldn't give black legion led by failbandon extra special rules too so that's another at least 2 pages here IMHO cuz they'z the coolest. So we've racked up a total of 18 pages here guys?
My main contention - originally you said "half" the Legions are now warbands, but only provide 2 as an example. Half of 9 is not 2. Of course I guess you could always debate the semantics of your usage of the word "warbands". Even if you agree to limiting head count to 100 Marines in a Warband, when lore speaks of multiple warbands, that would indicate Marine Chapter size forces. Again, in lore, some Legions were around 12k-15k marines. So each Legion on average would have 100 warbands of 100 marines. Let's address some of the finer points that seem to elude you in the CSM world.
III - Primarch alive, I will agree they have reduced to warbands in cohesion but definately not in number, although plenty of characters (2 in the book already) and 1 Unit. Not sure what else Emp. Child. players are looking for here but to rebuke your other point, these pages are already IN the book.
IV - Primarch alive, definately not reduced to warbands in size, many characters and completely gutted in most recent dex. If someone wants to play IW, they should just use C:SM and IG Allies.
VIII - Primarch dead, several characters, operations speak of multiple warbands operating together so definately not small. Again, nothing for these fellas. Might as well play Blood Angels for the DoA.
XII - Primarch alive, serveral characters other than Kharn (although he's in the book) and a unit in the book. They are still very large, most recent activity was against a WAAAGH, so I doubt it's a few guys. I'm definately not agreeing to the "aren't a cohesive fighting force" as they appear to be the opposite of that. Might as well play Blood Angels and run an all DC army though. Possibly take 1 more page in book.
XIV - Primarch alive, several characters (one in the book) and a unit in the book. Definately not a warband as they own at least 1 planet and regularly raid with fleets out of the Eye. Same as XII, maybe 1 more page in book.
XV - Primarch alive, several characters (one in the book) and a unit in the book. Definately not a warband as it specifically says "The Thousand Sons Traitor Legion fought alongside Abaddon the Despoiler in the 13th Black Crusade". Yeap, the WHOLE Legion. Might warrent another page in the book. XVI - This is basically their book, so I shouldn't have to address anything here. So no page increase by including these guys?
XVII - Primarch alive, definately not reduced to warbands in size as they own a planet and operate there as a Legion. Many characters and not a thing in the Codex. Not sure what Word Bearer players are looking for in the Codex.
XX - Primarch status uknown, multiple warbands operating actively all over the universe, several characters and nothing in the book. Again, not sure what Alpha players are looking for in the way of recompense, but I'm sure it wouldn't take much.
So I will give you no points for the "reduced to warband size" argument. All the Legions clearly have vast amounts of forces still active. To compare, that would be like saying Vulkan should be removed from C:SM because the Salamanders operate in warbands of less than 100 Marines, on average, when they fight. That can be said about any Power Armored force. It's a strawman.
The pages thing is just ridiculous. First off, the Codex books are going to be getting bigger anyway, look at WHFB. Secondly, that argument is like a child saying they don't want a larger ice cream sundae because it has nuts on it. Who cares!? Don't eat the nuts and enjoy the bigger sundae. If you don't like those pages, rip them out, ignore them, tape porn over them, or whatever.
I agree that Kharn shouldn't magically unlock Berserkers as troops. Lord Crull should lead them and do something like, reduce their unit point cost to that of a standard CSM or no point reduction and if you take 3 of them as troops you get Kharn for free. He just wants to show up and see what 30 Zerks are up too. The point is, it's insanely easy to slap stuff on, just like C:SM, that doesn't actually take up that much room and adds vast amount of flavor to the entire project. It would make *somerandomnumbergreaterthan1* happy that "their" army got a nod. It would lead to more sales, and more happy players.
It's not that hard, GW is just being lazy.
[Edit] Sorry Manch, was mid-tirade when you posted.
TalonZahn wrote:
XX - Primarch status uknown, multiple warbands operating actively all over the universe, several characters and nothing in the book. Again, not sure what Alpha players are looking for in the way of recompense, but I'm sure it wouldn't take much.
I know what I'd want!
* Some ability to 'infiltrate' and/or disrupt the enemy
* Ability to field 'cell operatives' = cultists with a variety of armaments and/or 'traitor guard' though I suppose the "Ally System" is where that is at now?
* A special character who is ambiguous in nature and intent, and not some stereotypical mustache twirling slaughterer of billions.
also, from what i have read(which is most of this thread), they are not making a "traitor guard" unit, i know they are getting cultists, but, i view cultists as a different entity than traitor guard, and guard should have been allowed to ally with CSM. It is possible that i missed something, or i guess i could have missed something about a traitor guard unit with a different name. But i dont buy the arguement from people that say cultists=traitor guard
Yeah, the rumors around traitor guard were from some of the more suspect mongers iirc. Cultists seem to be a strong possibility with Traitor Guard covered by Allies.
dajobe wrote:also, from what i have read(which is most of this thread), they are not making a "traitor guard" unit, i know they are getting cultists, but, i view cultists as a different entity than traitor guard, and guard should have been allowed to ally with CSM. It is possible that i missed something, or i guess i could have missed something about a traitor guard unit with a different name. But i dont buy the arguement from people that say cultists=traitor guard
I thought that IG can ally with CSM, although they aren't "Bros" so they don't get all the benefits of say... SM and IG as Allies. If they did, that would go along way for the Traitor Guard people. Surely their are Traitor Guard right? I mean, Spikey Imperial Guard must exist. ( I was being facetious right there if you didn't catch it.)
That move alone might silence Iron Warrior players along with maybe a Relentless rule or a character.
pretre wrote:Yeah, the rumors around traitor guard were from some of the more suspect mongers iirc. Cultists seem to be a strong possibility with Traitor Guard covered by Allies.
yeah, but wouldnt traitor guard be battle brothers with CSM? i guess the arguement could just used that they are allies of convenience since the CSM probably view them as inferior and completely expendable, but still, its bull-gak if SM and Tau get BB, why cant CSM and IG!!!
pretre wrote:Yeah, the rumors around traitor guard were from some of the more suspect mongers iirc. Cultists seem to be a strong possibility with Traitor Guard covered by Allies.
yeah, but wouldnt traitor guard be battle brothers with CSM? i guess the arguement could just used that they are allies of convenience since the CSM probably view them as inferior and completely expendable, but still, its bull-gak if SM and Tau get BB, why cant CSM and IG!!!
I think your point defines that they indeed would not be battle brothers because of how they are viewed. To further explain, the difference between them and the SM +Tau being Battle Brothers is the view points of the "good" and the view points of the "bad" the SM and Tau can ally and work hand in hand for the greater good so to speak. Where as, the CSM and Traiter Guard do not have the same convictions so to speak. There is no selflessness in Chaos. The closest Chaos can come is followers of Khorne because with their death they still serve Khorne but there is still a different mentality.
This goes on to be proven in the rules where SM have the rule "and they shall know no fear" while CSM do not have this rule. There is no conviction of a greater good to keep them in the fight to the last.
pretre wrote:Yeah, the rumors around traitor guard were from some of the more suspect mongers iirc. Cultists seem to be a strong possibility with Traitor Guard covered by Allies.
yeah, but wouldnt traitor guard be battle brothers with CSM? i guess the arguement could just used that they are allies of convenience since the CSM probably view them as inferior and completely expendable, but still, its bull-gak if SM and Tau get BB, why cant CSM and IG!!!
I think your point defines that they indeed would not be battle brothers because of how they are viewed. To further explain, the difference between them and the SM +Tau being Battle Brothers is the view points of the "good" and the view points of the "bad" the SM and Tau can ally and work hand in hand for the greater good so to speak. Where as, the CSM and Traiter Guard do not have the same convictions so to speak. There is no selflessness in Chaos. The closest Chaos can come is followers of Khorne because with their death they still serve Khorne but there is still a different mentality.
This goes on to be proven in the rules where SM have the rule "and they shall know no fear" while CSM do not have this rule. There is no conviction of a greater good to keep them in the fight to the last.
while your point does hold true, why is it that ahriman couldnt lead a unit of traitor guard, im pretty sure that if he or any other chaos lord(except maybe kharn) shows up, if he says "jump", the tainted guard say "how high?" because it is obvious that these champions of chaos have earned the favor of their gods and minions who could be drops of water in an ocean would do everything they could to get noticed.
also, tau are xenos, most if not all SM hate xenos and constantly work to purge them, so i dont buy that SM and Tau are battle brothers
See Ahriman (or any other Chaos Lord) *could* lead a unit of traitor guard, but why would they? The traitor guard already have a chain of command that they follow. Why would any Chaos (Marine) Lord stoop so low as to issue generic troops commands? He would not, he would delegate it to their command since it is beneath him to really deal with them in the first place since they are only a tool after all.
As far as SM being Battle Brothers with ANY Xenos, I agree, it does not make sense other than GW wanting to make money.
Ahriman would lead bands of Tzeentch cultists to act as his pawns, I see nothing odd with that.
Just about anyCSM attack beyond small raids use cultist troops, the BL books especially make use of them. They don't view it as stooping low, because they just use them as cannon fodder and they're basically brutalized slaves. Black Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion all use various renegade/Lost and the Damned troops.
Harriticus wrote:
Just about anyCSM attack beyond small raids use cultist troops, the BL books especially make use of them. They don't view it as stooping low, because they just use them as cannon fodder and they're basically brutalized slaves. Black Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion all use various renegade/Lost and the Damned troops.
I declare Bingo! for this man.
Wasn't the IW in a book that used a mass of IG as meat shields for their attack?
That's kind of how I envision it. A wall of useless meat so the real units can get foward to cause the actual damage. I think we need some Penal Legion bomb units to clear out the riff-raff before assault.
Not to break up the OT fest here, but how about a rumor:
via neko on Warseer wrote:
Hmm, a source was saying something about the Dragon having a flame template attack to take out armour. He also recommended salt, as he picked up this tidbit from another source.
@:TalonZahn My problem doesn't have to do with people wish listing legions or playing specific legions in a friendly game and making up special rules, I have a problem with people who don't see legions as impractical and at best a long shot. What you did was fine though, you made counts as armies from normal space marines and you're running them for fluff reasons probably not to win. But it's simply unrealistic to expect GW to release 7-8 new HQ's just so we can get a new FOC and a few extra rules. Also just saying they're a specific legion/painting them that way to get special rules is really stupid IMHO. Also I do play competitively some times and I really don't want to get shoehorned into a specific legion if their rules end up being slightly overpowered.
As a side note I wasn't saying the legions were too small for a legions book to make sense I meant that they are disorganized and mostly roam around in those 100 man groups when not called upon by either their primarch or a particularly powerful champion (sorta like the orks but in a more sentient manner aka offered slaves for services ect). This means that making rules for them is kinda hard because you don't often see a complete group of only world eaters, thousand sons (seen a few times), emperors children, IMHO black legion (for the most part they're made up of an amalgam of different warbands so nailing down special rules other than can take 1 of each cult as troops when lead by abandon would be hard), with Alpha and Night Lords being mostly behind the scenes guys as I understand it. So go ahead make a group and come up with your own rules. Why do we need GW to hold our hand in making these troops they've given us the fluff and the models make your legion
I'm really looking forward to this new codex, and one of the things I heard that I'm most excited about is the sacrificing to daemonic vehicles to regain hull points. It would be super cool if they extended this to all daemons, awesome use for cultists anyone? Also if the Dark Apostils could sacrifice cultists to give a role on the EotG table to a single unit that could be supper cool. Alost of sacrifice themes could be uber cool, simple meat shield to grease the tracks of enemy treads is more what I'm expecting and dreading tho
III - Primarch alive, I will agree they have reduced to warbands in cohesion but definately not in number, although plenty of characters (2 in the book already) and 1 Unit. Not sure what else Emp. Child. players are looking for here but to rebuke your other point, these pages are already IN the book.
4th is thankfully addressing most, though Fabius Bile isn't exactly Emperor's Children anymore, he really is a true renegade.
What I want and what seems to be fulfilled by 6th as an Emporer's Children/Flawless Host Player.
Lore of Slaanesh rather than one psyker ability: Yes
Able to Take Slaanesh Daemons: Allies
Able to take FNP squads with Slaanesh marks: Yes
Able to Replace weapons on Slaanesh Marked units with Sonic blasters, sonic blast masters, or Doom Sirens: Doesn't seem likely
Able to take Combat Drugs: Doesn't seem likely
Able to take Daemonic Wargifts like Aura of Acquiescence: Maybe with the new charts.
Noise marines decent for once: Hopefully!
Lash of Torment on aspiring champions: Not sure.
While thankfully it has alleviated most of my concern thankfully.
The CSM view themselves as chosen above normal men. Any normal human is merely trash to be used as their Lords see fit.
Not all of them, the Alpha Legion actually train the soldiers in the traitor guard and use them quite effectively, rather than just as suicidal ones. As they are often used side by side with their own CSM
What I'm also hopeing from this new codex is the ability to build your legion the way you want to. At some point the idea that taking multiple marks and icons would be allowed, and IMHO this could be a huge step forward in building our own legions without taking up the time to 1 create multiple CSM books that would mean pushing off Xeno books or 2 half assing it and giving us a single page for each legion. This way we get to write the fluff of our armies and when it's tournement time I don't have to think hmmm looks like for this meta I need to take alot of armor, IW it is I guess.
Well I believe the book is already done anways, so arguing about how they should or should not do legion rules seems pointless to me. I honestly doubt we will see rules for legions in the new codex anyways. It would just be nice if the option was there.
I think from what I have read is that you can't get special rules or playing x legion, however you will be able to almost build any legion you want from the main codex. We still have no idea on what kind of options are available to the chaos lords(and someone was saying it is extensive) but from the sound of things unless you were looking for space marine chapters level of stuff it looks like you should be satisfied.
Then again I am ever the optimist. but i think deathguard will be fine, I am excited to see what happens to nurgle marked vehicles
To be honest I hope they use Codex: Space Marine as a Model. Each of the Special Character gave you the ability to do something special. Even a few of the Normal Characters, the Space Marine Captian and Tech-Marine let you change whet was under each FOC.
Look at the Space Wolf Codex, it has two Characters that completely change your FOC, Logan Makes Wolf Guard Troops. Now who has not taken advantage of that.
If the Rumors are correct, I take my Chaos Sorcerer and give him Mark of Tzeentch; Poof your Thousand Sons move from Elite to Troops. I take the Mark of Tzeentch for my Terminators; Poof they are now Thousand Sons Terminators. I now have a Thousand Son’s Legion. That’s all I am hoping for.
Take the same paragraph above and replace it everything appropriate and Poof I have my [Insert] Legion.
As far as Fluff; if they do once more like Codex: Space Marine. Each Legion will probably get a Page and probably a paragraph somewhere in there. That’s more than the Iron Fist and the Silver Skulls ever got. How many Founding got a nod in Codex: Ultramarine. I want to create a small Raven Guard force, but I have to go to Forge World to get anything other than Shrike.
I know there is a big difference between what you want and what you get. What I want is for there to be a Codex for every Marine Chapter, even those I will never play, each Eldar Faction, each Ork Clan and each Legion. That is not going to happen. What I am expecting is a Codex: Chaos Marines that I am going to spend to much money on because I am only going to use about ¼ to 1/3 of it to build my Anubis Themed Thousand Sons Army.
pretre wrote:Not to break up the OT fest here, but how about a rumor:
via neko on Warseer wrote:
Hmm, a source was saying something about the Dragon having a flame template attack to take out armour. He also recommended salt, as he picked up this tidbit from another source.
protonhunter wrote: So go ahead make a group and come up with your own rules. Why do we need GW to hold our hand in making these troops they've given us the fluff and the models make your legion
Making up my own rules isn't needed. As I pointed out, for the most part, GW already did it in C:SM.
I have about 10k points of Iron Warriors in boxes, about 3k miles from here. So if I *truly* wanted to play them as I see fit.... I roll Imperial Fists rules with IG Allies.
It's just sad that I have to do that. It's sad that ANY CSM player can get better results playing *counts-as* or "My Army is painted like a Traitor but uses Loyalist rules."
I hope the Flyer can take Marks and the Marks result in different types of "flame" for that template. I'm going to need a Khorne Bloodspout that lowers LD, a Nurgle Barf Bomb that forces people to roll for mutations on a chart, a Tzeentch ear worm that makes the affected unit charge the closest friendly units, and a Slaanesh siren song that reduces Armor Save by 1 because everybody is getting naked.
pretre wrote:Not to break up the OT fest here, but how about a rumor:
via neko on Warseer wrote:
Hmm, a source was saying something about the Dragon having a flame template attack to take out armour. He also recommended salt, as he picked up this tidbit from another source.
Guys! C'mon now. Let's not sit around arguing about who killed who. There's a simple solution to all of this. All you gotta do is retconn the fluff to make everybody some kind of Black Legion warbanz equivalent. Iron Warriors and siege warfare? Nah, they forgot all about that when they became warbanz. Night Lords and terror tactics? Warbanz! Word Bearers? 2 words - WAR BANZ.
Alpharius wrote:
TalonZahn wrote:
XX - Primarch status uknown, multiple warbands operating actively all over the universe, several characters and nothing in the book. Again, not sure what Alpha players are looking for in the way of recompense, but I'm sure it wouldn't take much.
I know what I'd want!
* Some ability to 'infiltrate' and/or disrupt the enemy
* Ability to field 'cell operatives' = cultists with a variety of armaments and/or 'traitor guard' though I suppose the "Ally System" is where that is at now?
* A special character who is ambiguous in nature and intent, and not some stereotypical mustache twirling slaughterer of billions.
That's it!
That's a pretty good point. But instead of all that what I'd really like to see are
WARBANZ!
TalonZahn wrote:
protonhunter wrote: So go ahead make a group and come up with your own rules. Why do we need GW to hold our hand in making these troops they've given us the fluff and the models make your legion
Making up my own rules isn't needed. As I pointed out, for the most part, GW already did it in C:SM.
I have about 10k points of Iron Warriors in boxes, about 3k miles from here. So if I *truly* wanted to play them as I see fit.... I roll Imperial Fists rules with IG Allies.
It's just sad that I have to do that. It's sad that ANY CSM player can get better results playing *counts-as* or "My Army is painted like a Traitor but uses Loyalist rules."
I hope the Flyer can take Marks and the Marks result in different types of "flame" for that template. I'm going to need a Khorne Bloodspout that lowers LD, a Nurgle Barf Bomb that forces people to roll for mutations on a chart, a Tzeentch ear worm that makes the affected unit charge the closest friendly units, and a Slaanesh siren song that reduces Armor Save by 1 because everybody is getting naked.
I've found that I'm usually a lot happier with subpar rules if I listen to some good music while I'm playing. Like, in June I went to this one concert and there were a whole bunch of bands I think you might really dig. You should check them out. They were... wait... now what type of bands were they again? Oh jeez, I forgot...
winnertakesall wrote:Judging by BoW certainty about the new starter set, looks like Chaos is definitely in for a new codex, and several new units. Yay!
I like what I'm reading on those Cultists.... I always thought they should have a Necromunda vibe. I think it was Cawdor, lemme look..... Yea, Cawdor and that big dude with the Heavy Stubber. This is very promising indeed.
Sounds like new Chosen, New Lord model... even if they are one off, people will be selling their half.
We need pics of this "Hellbrute" stat!
I know one of you guys works in a warehouse somewhere and has a cellphone......
The Observer wrote:Daemon prince gets even more badass?! HUZZAH!!!!
Has any information regarding this been posted? All I've seen is that it will get in line with the Chaos Daemons Prince, which is ´ricey and underwhelming except for the fact that it can now fly like a true flyer instead of jump trops.
The Observer wrote:Daemon prince gets even more badass?! HUZZAH!!!!
Where do you see this BTW? I've only seen that it's getting a points increase to be on par power wise with the DP of chaos proper so it can start being a normal FMC.
The lack of a CSM codex being sold implies a release date earlier than Oct in my eyes. Looks like Sept will be the new age of chaos. I will be greatfull for any improvements that they make.
Most looking forward too...
Cultists. Cheap troops that will help my nurgle face down the teaming minions of those pesky horde armies.
Marks getting a rework so nurgle wont have to pay a base rate of 4o pts to mark some terminators.
Land raider with a carrying capacity the same as the loyalists would be nice.
Hoping for a balanced new codex with lots of builds instead of plague marines in rhinos, oblits and lash princes.
Fast attack choices that are reasonable.
New units especially the demon engines. here is to hoping that the dragon flyer does not look weak.
I also hope that they dont nerf nurgle too much.
Overall i am still excited. The hell brute and the new cultist models sound exciting. what do you think. 4pt cultists. That would be awesome. Slightly better than grots.
Cultist are rumored that they can be in units up 50 models... And typhus make them plague zombies... How long before we see 300 plague zombies slowing down games?
Plz let the 20pt Ksons be true ... i dont care if they are lvl 1 psykers. Frees up so many points ... i would beable to finally field my units of 9 ksons and still upgrade stuff to being useful.
+1 for deamonic things finally getting benfits for being deamonic, instead of just being beat down by GKs.
+1 for marks affecting our transports ... wonder what Tzeench does
+1 for dreadnaughts getting mark love and not being useless ... i mean temperamental
I wonder if i can build a worth while DP for 170 ...
happygolucky wrote:All I really want to know is will chaos be getting any types of drop pod?
I want a pod army for my chaos marines...
I really doubt it. GW usually avoids making CSM and regular SM too similar, hence why no stormbolders, assault cannons, thunder hammers, storm shields, PoTMS and so on.
Besides, always-accurate deep-strike on turn 1? That totally denies enemy reaction, just like assaulting after outflanking! Meaning only marines get it.
They actually released a FC version of each GD... But I'd say GW would, especially seeming second waves appear from 1/2 a year (and GD won't even tecnically BE part of it) to how ever long
1 - 1 1/2 seems right
Plus they might include the parts to make Fateweaver/Kurgath/Skarbrand inside the plastic kits (like the Swarmlord), killing two birds with one stone and removing 5 Finecast kits form the range in one fell swoop. And if they were really bloody clever (which means this'll never happen) each GD box will include a foot-mounted plastic Herald as well (like how the FWDP's come with Heralds). Then we'd actually have non-special character models to use as Heralds in easy-to-convert plastic.
I doubt they'd do Fateweaver if they did that
and that would be great, but it would give GW less moneyz, and we all know that in this day and age that's all GW does it for
I really prefer finecast/resin over plastic. Seems most don't though. I just find it vastly easier to clean up and work with. The plastic bits take 4 times as long to get rid of all the mold lines and sprue cut points.
happygolucky wrote:All I really want to know is will chaos be getting any types of drop pod?
I want a pod army for my chaos marines...
I really doubt it. GW usually avoids making CSM and regular SM too similar, hence why no stormbolders, assault cannons, thunder hammers, storm shields, PoTMS and so on.
Besides, always-accurate deep-strike on turn 1? That totally denies enemy reaction, just like assaulting after outflanking! Meaning only marines get it.
Damn it... I want deathclaw drop pods... screw the new shiny stiff, if they Dont have pods, im not going to be satisfied with the codex...
Matt.Kingsley wrote:I doubt they'd do Fateweaver if they did that
and that would be great, but it would give GW less moneyz, and we all know that in this day and age that's all GW does it for
How so? If you want both now, you buy two different kits. If you want both in future, you buy two of the same kit. No real difference.
Matt.Kingsley wrote:I doubt they'd do Fateweaver if they did that
and that would be great, but it would give GW less moneyz, and we all know that in this day and age that's all GW does it for
How so? If you want both now, you buy two different kits. If you want both in future, you buy two of the same kit. No real difference.
And you could magnetize the kit and have one LoC/Fateweaver out of one box. And that, my friend, is bad!
First off, I want to say that it just doesn’t make any sense for GW to release the new Starter Set with models that doesn’t have a codex, so we have to assume that CSM codex will be out before the starter set. The only way they don’t (would be a big slap in the face) would be they add a mini update like Daemons and still put off the CSM codex release.
Anyway on to more rumors/leaks.
Remember I might just repeat other rumors floating around and debunk others.
–Special Characters–
Ahriman: Mastery Level 4, Same Stats as before, Access to Biomancy, Pryomancy, Telepathy, and Tzeentch. He is the master of witch ire spells, he can cast three spells that are witchfire in the same phase. He can also give up to three units infiltrate ability.
Huron: Same Stats as before, Mastery Level 1, Spells are randomly determined at the start of each turn.
Typhus: Same Stats as before, Mastery Level 2 can only take Nurgle powers, Destroyer Hive has been changed to be a Nurgle Holocaust Str4 AP2 ignores cover. Has Fear
Kharn: Same Stats as before, Him and his Unit get 2+ to deny witch and is completely immune to force weapons. Still attacks random people, but now a sneaky way around it. Always hits on 2+ in Assualt. Best part is he has Hatred that he can give to the rest of his unit.
Fabius Bile: Same Stats as before. Enhanced Warriors can only ever kill one model gives them Str and Fearless.
Lucius: Same Stats as before. His attacks are the same number as your opponent WS (Avatar vs Lucius fun times). Re-rolls all Wounds, Armor saves made by Lucius inflict str 4 ap2 hits back.
–Vehicles–
Dragon: 170pts AV 12/12/10 Can Vector Strike as a MC, Has Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
Shooty Demon Engine: 120pts AV 12/12/10 Two Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
Assault Demon Engine: 135pts AV 12/12/10, Immune to Cover, 12″ Move, Two Str 8 AP1 Melta Weapons, plus PowerFists
Hellbrute New CSM Dreadnaught: 105pts Crazed, BIG CHANGE no more DCW now just power fist will strike at I1
Chaos Land Raider: 220pts Only Godhammer variant, only holds 10 guys, still can get dozerblades
Upgrades: Mini Deff Roller Str 5 Ap – hits and double for failed death and glory, Chaos Lash whips but reduce attacks to 1
–Unique Items–
Demon Weapons: All Demon Weapons on a roll of 1 will attack user, but no longer will you lose the rest of your attacks.
Unique Chaos Power Maul: AP4, Fleshbane, Demon Weapon, Any unsaved wounds causes instant death after toughness test is failed, in addition at the end of the assault phase any model with in 3″ must make another toughness test or take an AP1 wound.
Unique Chaos Power Sword: Ap3 Marked for Death, select any character get str x2 AP1 instant death when engaged with that character
Unique Chaos Flamer: Str 5 Ap3 Torrent, Soulblaze
Unique Icon: Once you kill a model the Icon unlocks and any model enemy model within 12″ must take Difficult and Dangerous Terrain tests and all friendly deep strikers don’t scatter.
Unique Spell Book: Gain Random powers every turn can possible hurt you as well
–Wargear–
Attack Familiar: Two additional familiar attacks
Magic Familiar: Grants Random Spells
Chaos Iron Halo: 4+ invul can stack with MoT so that means 3+ invul
Flails: AP 2 Str 8 reduce WS of targets
–Units–
Chosen: 19pts each, Infiltrate gone
Terminators: 31pts each, Upgrades got very cheap FULLY kitted 10 man unit is about 400 pts with more versatility than another other Terminator unit in the game. Still has Combi-Spam.
Zerkers: 19pts each, Chainaxe Str 4 Ap 4
1k Sons: 23pts each, Champion Mastery Level 1
Plague Marines: 24pts each, Same as before now have Poison Assault Weapon
Noise Marines: 16pts each, Must still buy Sonic Weapons. Sonic Blaster 24″ inch Str 4 Ap5 Salvo, Ignores Cover, Blastmaster 25 pts assault 2 or heavy 1 blast same as before now with ignores cover, Doom Siren Same as before.
Assault Oblits: Elite Slot Weapons act like Ymgarl Genestealers powers
Possessed: Random Chart is now D3 acts like Ymgarl Genestealers powers, but determine at the beginning of the turn.
Havocs: 13pts each, 5-15pt drop for all special weapons from past edition, can buy Flak missiles
–Psychic Powers–
Tzeentch: 4 powers only. Prime Power Random Str blast that keeps on exploding random hits for every dead model, 1-2 Roll on Big Chart re-roll spawn result, 3-4 Bolt of Tzeentch but how is a Beam, 5-6 Breath of Chaos
Ok that is all I got guys every last drop of rumor juice is gone! Enjoy, oh wait what is this at the bottom of my cup…
Prepare to be Despoiled
Abaddon is still one bad ass. His stats and cost remain the same. He will always be your Warlord. Drach’nyen: Demon Weapon, Specialist Weapon, +1 str ap2. Talon of Horus: x2 str, re-roll wounds, BA get hatred to Abaddon, Any friendly unit within 12″ of Abaddon gets Preferred Enemy. The biggest thing about Abaddon though is he makes CHOSEN TROOPS!
It appears as though fresh life is about to be injected into our book.
I hope it is released soon, as I have a lot of projects "on hold".
My goal is to build a fluffy and themed Thousand Sons list with the new rules, with 2 HQ sorcerers, 4 squads of Tsons, and some cool units such as psychic chosen? Who knows if they're in the book....
I wonder if Ahriman has a 3+*.... Oh, and.... What if the Aspiring Sorcerers in TSons can select special wargear like the random psychic power books?
Dragon: 170pts AV 12/12/10 Can Vector Strike as a MC, Has Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
Shooty Demon Engine: 120pts AV 12/12/10 Two Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
Assault Demon Engine: 135pts AV 12/12/10, Immune to Cover, 12″ Move, Two Str 8 AP1 Melta Weapons, plus PowerFists
Hellbrute New CSM Dreadnaught: 105pts Crazed, BIG CHANGE no more DCW now just power fist will strike at I1
Chaos Land Raider: 220pts Only Godhammer variant, only holds 10 guys, still can get dozerblades
Upgrades: Mini Deff Roller Str 5 Ap – hits and double for failed death and glory, Chaos Lash whips but reduce attacks to 1
–Unique Items–
Unique Chaos Power Axe:
Unique Chaos Power Maul:
Unique Chaos Power Sword:
Unique Chaos Flamer:
Unique Icon:
Unique Spell Book:
–Units–
Terminators: 31pts each, Upgrades got very cheap FULLY kitted 10 man unit is about 400 pts with more versatility than another other Terminator unit in the game. Still has Combi-Spam.
Havocs: 13pts each, 5-15pt drop for all special weapons from past edition, can buy Flak missiles
- Dread replaced by new "dread" and demon engines?
- a discount for termies and havocs. Cheap LR......So they really want to sell termies and havocs...
- unique weapons are 1 per army,right? like unique characters?
TastyTaste wrote:First off, I want to say that it just doesn’t make any sense for GW to release the new Starter Set with models that doesn’t have a codex, so we have to assume that CSM codex will be out before the starter set. The only way they don’t (would be a big slap in the face) would be they add a mini update like Daemons and still put off the CSM codex release.
... or they include the rules with the starter box, like they always do.
Matt.Kingsley wrote:I doubt they'd do Fateweaver if they did that
and that would be great, but it would give GW less moneyz, and we all know that in this day and age that's all GW does it for
How so? If you want both now, you buy two different kits. If you want both in future, you buy two of the same kit. No real difference.
I was mainly talking about the heralds with that one.
I'll be most disappointed - to the point of having second thoughts over whether to continue building-up my traitor marines - if the codex actually includes no dreadnoughts, just this dreadknight-esque thing.
Dragon: 170pts AV 12/12/10 Can Vector Strike as a MC, Has Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
Shooty Demon Engine: 120pts AV 12/12/10 Two Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
Assault Demon Engine: 135pts AV 12/12/10, Immune to Cover, 12″ Move, Two Str 8 AP1 Melta Weapons, plus PowerFists
Hellbrute New CSM Dreadnaught: 105pts Crazed, BIG CHANGE no more DCW now just power fist will strike at I1
Chaos Land Raider: 220pts Only Godhammer variant, only holds 10 guys, still can get dozerblades
Upgrades: Mini Deff Roller Str 5 Ap – hits and double for failed death and glory, Chaos Lash whips but reduce attacks to 1
–Unique Items–
Unique Chaos Power Axe:
Unique Chaos Power Maul:
Unique Chaos Power Sword:
Unique Chaos Flamer:
Unique Icon:
Unique Spell Book:
–Units–
Terminators: 31pts each, Upgrades got very cheap FULLY kitted 10 man unit is about 400 pts with more versatility than another other Terminator unit in the game. Still has Combi-Spam.
Havocs: 13pts each, 5-15pt drop for all special weapons from past edition, can buy Flak missiles
- Dread replaced by new "dread" and demon engines?
- a discount for termies and havocs. Cheap LR......So they really want to sell termies and havocs...
- unique weapons are 1 per army,right? like unique characters?
LR cost 220 points already so no change in points cost.
Chaos termis cost 30 points now so their points are going up by 1.
Yes Unique means one per army.
Personaly I am not a fan of some of these rumors. I am quite displeased that our Dread is getting down graded, especialy without a points cost reduction. Actually it cost 5 more points than a Chaos Dread now.
Zerkers with chain axes are St4 AP4.. WOW thats what they are now! (sarcasm).
Going off the theory that what isn't mentioned, isn't changed and then combine that with these rumors being the actual changes.....
Sounds like another junk CSM Codex.
Of course I'll hold off on final judgement and CSM Codex rage until it is released for all to see.
I just don't understand why GW has such a problem making a decent CSM Codex when there are several decent Codex out there for other armies. Are they confused about their own product? Do they not understand their market?
First off, I want to say that it just doesn’t make any sense for GW to release the new Starter Set with models that doesn’t have a codex, so we have to assume that CSM codex will be out before the starter set. The only way they don’t (would be a big slap in the face) would be they add a mini update like Daemons and still put off the CSM codex release.
Anyway on to more rumors/leaks.
Remember I might just repeat other rumors floating around and debunk others.
–Special Characters–
Ahriman: Mastery Level 4, Same Stats as before, Access to Biomancy, Pryomancy, Telepathy, and Tzeentch. He is the master of witch ire spells, he can cast three spells that are witchfire in the same phase. He can also give up to three units infiltrate ability.
Huron: Same Stats as before, Mastery Level 1, Spells are randomly determined at the start of each turn.
Typhus: Same Stats as before, Mastery Level 2 can only take Nurgle powers, Destroyer Hive has been changed to be a Nurgle Holocaust Str4 AP2 ignores cover. Has Fear
Kharn: Same Stats as before, Him and his Unit get 2+ to deny witch and is completely immune to force weapons. Still attacks random people, but now a sneaky way around it. Always hits on 2+ in Assualt. Best part is he has Hatred that he can give to the rest of his unit.
Fabius Bile: Same Stats as before. Enhanced Warriors can only ever kill one model gives them Str and Fearless.
Lucius: Same Stats as before. His attacks are the same number as your opponent WS (Avatar vs Lucius fun times). Re-rolls all Wounds, Armor saves made by Lucius inflict str 4 ap2 hits back.
–Vehicles–
Dragon: 170pts AV 12/12/10 Can Vector Strike as a MC, Has Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
Shooty Demon Engine: 120pts AV 12/12/10 Two Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
Assault Demon Engine: 135pts AV 12/12/10, Immune to Cover, 12″ Move, Two Str 8 AP1 Melta Weapons, plus PowerFists
Hellbrute New CSM Dreadnaught: 105pts Crazed, BIG CHANGE no more DCW now just power fist will strike at I1
Chaos Land Raider: 220pts Only Godhammer variant, only holds 10 guys, still can get dozerblades
Upgrades: Mini Deff Roller Str 5 Ap – hits and double for failed death and glory, Chaos Lash whips but reduce attacks to 1
–Unique Items–
Demon Weapons: All Demon Weapons on a roll of 1 will attack user, but no longer will you lose the rest of your attacks.
Unique Chaos Power Maul: AP4, Fleshbane, Demon Weapon, Any unsaved wounds causes instant death after toughness test is failed, in addition at the end of the assault phase any model with in 3″ must make another toughness test or take an AP1 wound.
Unique Chaos Power Sword: Ap3 Marked for Death, select any character get str x2 AP1 instant death when engaged with that character
Unique Chaos Flamer: Str 5 Ap3 Torrent, Soulblaze
Unique Icon: Once you kill a model the Icon unlocks and any model enemy model within 12″ must take Difficult and Dangerous Terrain tests and all friendly deep strikers don’t scatter.
Unique Spell Book: Gain Random powers every turn can possible hurt you as well
–Wargear–
Attack Familiar: Two additional familiar attacks
Magic Familiar: Grants Random Spells
Chaos Iron Halo: 4+ invul can stack with MoT so that means 3+ invul
Flails: AP 2 Str 8 reduce WS of targets
–Units–
Chosen: 19pts each, Infiltrate gone
Terminators: 31pts each, Upgrades got very cheap FULLY kitted 10 man unit is about 400 pts with more versatility than another other Terminator unit in the game. Still has Combi-Spam.
Zerkers: 19pts each, Chainaxe Str 4 Ap 4
1k Sons: 23pts each, Champion Mastery Level 1
Plague Marines: 24pts each, Same as before now have Poison Assault Weapon
Noise Marines: 16pts each, Must still buy Sonic Weapons. Sonic Blaster 24″ inch Str 4 Ap5 Salvo, Ignores Cover, Blastmaster 25 pts assault 2 or heavy 1 blast same as before now with ignores cover, Doom Siren Same as before.
Assault Oblits: Elite Slot Weapons act like Ymgarl Genestealers powers
Possessed: Random Chart is now D3 acts like Ymgarl Genestealers powers, but determine at the beginning of the turn.
Havocs: 13pts each, 5-15pt drop for all special weapons from past edition, can buy Flak missiles
–Psychic Powers–
Tzeentch: 4 powers only. Prime Power Random Str blast that keeps on exploding random hits for every dead model, 1-2 Roll on Big Chart re-roll spawn result, 3-4 Bolt of Tzeentch but how is a Beam, 5-6 Breath of Chaos
Ok that is all I got guys every last drop of rumor juice is gone! Enjoy, oh wait what is this at the bottom of my cup…
Prepare to be Despoiled
Abaddon is still one bad ass. His stats and cost remain the same. He will always be your Warlord. Drach’nyen: Demon Weapon, Specialist Weapon, +1 str ap2. Talon of Horus: x2 str, re-roll wounds, BA get hatred to Abaddon, Any friendly unit within 12″ of Abaddon gets Preferred Enemy. The biggest thing about Abaddon though is he makes CHOSEN TROOPS!
If this is true + some of the other rumours.. then Chaos just got back to being bad ass mofo's to take names.
Icons were a pretty rubbish mechanic for making aligned units.
It was made of the same design ethos as Codex: Dark Angels (so compare that to Codex Marines)
Things cost too many points.
Im sorry but Chaos Iron Halo? so... we cant have pods but they will give us Iron halo's? im sorry but even if that gets a different name its still the equivalent to an Iron Halo...
Anpu42 wrote:I am curios to what specifically is making them bad this time around. To me I saw a lot of good stuff.
Same bunk Dread only now costs more.
Land Raider isn't impresive at all and despite the big GW "CSM are all Renegades" why are CSM still limited to 1 pattern?
Half the stuff went up in cost, and in some cases lost an ability/rule to boot. For example Chosen now cost more, and are worse than before.
No Pods? So CSM have no pods left from HH, no way to make/capture them, and back to the GW "CSM are all Renegades" but they forgot to take pods when they joined Chaos.
Random chart for Possessed is still there and we get to roll each turn! Maybe the Ymgarl part will offset that, but I doubt it.
Elite slot looks to be overloaded by uninpressive units. It's gots lots of stuff to take, but you won't want to take any of it.
Unique Items - Welcome to WHFB!
To me it looks like the book will be just as bad, overall, as the last one. The only exception is that this time around GW is throwing new shinies at us to distract from the Codex.
Again, I will hold final decision until I see the whole thing, but to me it's not looking that impressive.
Terminators: 31pts each, Upgrades got very cheap FULLY kitted 10 man unit is about 400 pts with more versatility than another other Terminator unit in the game. Still has Combi-Spam.
LR cost 220 points already so no change in points cost.
Chaos termis cost 30 points now so their points are going up by 1.
Oh, sorry wasn't aware those LR I don't encounter are already that cheap. Termies + cheap upgrades > 400 pts , it isn't clear what they got to be "fully kitted out" but 90 pts to equip 10 models sounds like lots of 5/10 pts upgrades. A discount on gear is as good as one at the basic cost maybe?
Looking closer, I've only got the havocs right and missed the zerkers ( -2 ) and noisemarines ( -4 ) going down.
I suck at "know thy enemy" it seems....
If this rings true than I really have no ambition for finishing my Chaos, so grey knights get to keep their dreadnought and gain a dreadknight while we lose a dreadnought and get a roided nasty suit of armor with only a powerfist?
I don't want to be entirely cynical but the rest of these rumors just leave a bad taste in my mouth. Especially the no access to rapid deployment options like drop pods and no variants of LRs like loyalists.
From what these rumors give me feels very lazy, especially the "dragon".
Dravenguild wrote:If this rings true than I really have no ambition for finishing my Chaos, so grey knights get to keep their dreadnought and gain a dreadknight while we lose a dreadnought and get a roided nasty suit of armor with only a powerfist?
Don't forget the "Dread" is now +5 points (it would be +15 but taking a Fist costs +10), and always strikes at I1. It's probably still in Elite and probably still insane in the membrane. Which are fair guesses since there are no rumors to oppose that and I would consider those part of "BIG CHANGE".
It's ok though because if you want a Shooty Dread, you can use the "New Shooty Demon Engine" and if want to punch stuff you can buy the new "Assault Demon Engine".....
Again.... LOOK AT THE NEW TOYS FOR YOUR CODEX!! Pay no attentiong to the other crap in the Codex.
If those points values prove correct, then I really will despair. Chosen occupy the same slot as Wolf Guard and aren't as good (1 attack rather than 2, no counter-attack) and yet cost a point more? Havocs are identical to Devastators but cost 13 points a model (and will have cheaper weapons)? Really, can nobody in the design studio do basic maths?
It's a good thing we'll all be having so much fun "forging a narrative™" that comically poor game balance will no longer bother us...
I hope pods will be in 2nd wave or a quick update if the CSM codex Doesn't have them this time around or is the same as before or the new shiny has to be good or il have no ambition to continue with chaos... and thats saying something for me as CSM was my first army...
Have you seen the full rules of the units? Their options? The point costs of said options?
Just because a Dreadnought is still Crazed doesn't mean the Crazed table is the same.
And as a reminder, a Power Fist is only unwieldy on non-MC, non-Walkers (open up your BRB). Meaning the Dread will strike at its intiative; Tasty had a brainfart there.
There's some fair whining but also a good deal of moronic whining in here. Yes of course, the dread only has a power fist. It certainly doesn't have a single option or alternative weapon loadout. Yep, makes sense.
English Assassin wrote:If those points values prove correct, then I really will despair. Chosen occupy the same slot as Wolf Guard and aren't as good (1 attack rather than 2, no counter-attack) and yet cost a point more? Havocs are identical to Devastators but cost 13 points a model (and will have cheaper weapons)? Really, can nobody in the design studio do basic maths?
How do you know what the stats/options/ rules in the new 'dex will be?
Of course it is easier to overreact and whine about narrative gaming.
Vhalyar wrote:Have you seen the full rules of the units? Their options? The point costs of said options?
Just because a Dreadnought is still Crazed doesn't mean the Crazed table is the same.
And as a reminder, a Power Fist is only unwieldy on non-MC, non-Walkers (open up your BRB). Meaning the Dread will strike at its intiative; Tasty had a brainfart there.
There's some fair whining but also a good deal of moronic whining in here. Yes of course, the dread only has a power fist. It certainly doesn't have a single option or alternative weapon loadout. Yep, makes sense.
Hey, you can polish a turd all you want, but it's still a turd.
I also said I will hold final judgement until the actual Codex is released.
However, from what I've seen so far, personally it looks to be another "meh" codex for the CSM overall.
All I hope now is that it gives me a better codex than the current one and the rules are strong with the fluff (im not talking about "oh lets make them OP" more along the lines of the rules are better than what they are now more slightly and go side-by-side with the fluff).
English Assassin wrote:If those points values prove correct, then I really will despair. Chosen occupy the same slot as Wolf Guard and aren't as good (1 attack rather than 2, no counter-attack) and yet cost a point more? Havocs are identical to Devastators but cost 13 points a model (and will have cheaper weapons)? Really, can nobody in the design studio do basic maths?
How do you know what the stats/options/ rules in the new 'dex will be?
Of course it is easier to overreact and whine about narrative gaming.
I'm sorry, I didn't think that I needed to make clear a caveat of "presuming no radical changes to statlines and abilities". There, I've done so; happy now?
And no, since bathos is a fairly complex type of humour, the "forging a narrative™" jibes aren't actually that easy, but rest assured that I shall continue make use of every opportunity the design studio's shoddy approach to game design provides to make them - opportunities which I foresee will be plentiful in the weeks and months to come.
English Assassin wrote:If those points values prove correct, then I really will despair. Chosen occupy the same slot as Wolf Guard and aren't as good (1 attack rather than 2, no counter-attack) and yet cost a point more? Havocs are identical to Devastators but cost 13 points a model (and will have cheaper weapons)? Really, can nobody in the design studio do basic maths?
How do you know what the stats/options/ rules in the new 'dex will be?
Of course it is easier to overreact and whine about narrative gaming.
I'm sorry, I didn't think that I needed to make clear a caveat of "presuming no radical changes to statlines and abilities". There, I've done so; happy now?
And no, since bathos is a fairly complex type of humour, the "forging a narrative™" jibes aren't actually that easy, but rest assured that I shall continue make use of every opportunity the design studio's shoddy approach to game design provides to make them - opportunities which I foresee will be plentiful in the weeks and months to come.
There's also the fact we've seen the chosens statline as we've seen the leaked rumors for the starting kit which features chosen at their standard (4th edition) statline.
English Assassin wrote:
Of course it is easier to overreact and whine about narrative gaming.
I'm sorry, I didn't think that I needed to make clear a caveat of "presuming no radical changes to statlines and abilities". There, I've done so; happy now?
Not really, you are still complaining about something that you know virtually nothing about, its a complete waste of time.
All that we have to go on is the current codex entries and some rumours about new points costs. It would be best if everyone refrains from complaining about perceived 'nerfs' until after the codex has actually been released. There is faint hope of that though.
Brometheus wrote:via Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source)
Chaos Space Marines is on the 8th of September
That said, the starter box will not be being released in September at all.
Big Pause..............
It's the last Saturday of August along with the White Dwarf previewing CSM. (the 25th).via Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source)
Chaos Space Marines is on the 8th of September
That said, the starter box will not be being released in September at all.
Big Pause..............
It's the last Saturday of August along with the White Dwarf previewing CSM. (the 25th).
(copy and pasted from Faeit 212)
Automatically Appended Next Post: My comment to the above ^ : We shall see.
Hellbrute New CSM Dreadnaught: 105pts Crazed, BIG CHANGE no more DCW now just power fist will strike at I1
If it is just a power fist then the dread will still strike at initiative. Dreads and MCs ignore unwieldy. In fact the only difference between a fist and DCCW for dreads is the fist is a specialist weapon.
Also the lamentations here ignore some of the other rumors and just focus on these new ones from BoK (dreads getting marks; seige land raider; possessed getting to buy gifts; etc.). To me between all the rumors it sounds like much of 3.5 is being brought back into 4 ed, with a touch of the current paradigm of new big kits and new multi-unit build kits. I'm liking the sound of it so far.
Have CSM players EVER been satisfied with a codex?
I submit that, as a general group, they have not.
Jokes aside, I'm interested in what this Dragon is.... might be fun to convert in to something for my IG. Dunno though, if it's an honest to Emperor MC it wouldn't work, but if it's a vehicle...
Melissia wrote:Have CSM players EVER been satisfied with a codex?
I submit that, as a general group, they have not.
Jokes aside, I'm interested in what this Dragon is.... might be fun to convert in to something for my IG. Dunno though, if it's an honest to Emperor MC it wouldn't work, but if it's a vehicle...
That's like asking if sisters players ever stop playing the martyr.
And now I've got a bunch more work to do on the ongoing rumor thread.
The only complaints most of us had about the 3.5 dex were that it was too powerful in places. Some of the daemon weapons were absurd, and Siren was so broken that Chaos players in many parts of the world refused to use it.
Melissia wrote:Have CSM players EVER been satisfied with a codex?
I submit that, as a general group, they have not.
Jokes aside, I'm interested in what this Dragon is.... might be fun to convert in to something for my IG. Dunno though, if it's an honest to Emperor MC it wouldn't work, but if it's a vehicle...
That's like asking if sisters players ever stop playing the martyr.
Good lord we are being compared to Sisters players, it is time to pull it together guys!
I for one am really stoked with what I have seen so far. BTW the dread won't strike at I1 walkers and Mc's ignore the Unwieldy USR.
Wait a moment: Regular Joe CSM cost 14 points? Carry a CCW, Bolter and B. Pistol, buy a special weapons for 5/10/15 points, get 2 of them on squad of 10, can exchange one of them for a Heavy Weapon, and have a Sarge who actually make part of the team (and can make the unit stubborn)?
Hell, i dont know if I laugh of Sisters of Battle Players (who pay 13 points for the same, with "-1 in everything" profile, and no ccw), or if i cheer the ideia that Grey Hunters are not "undercosted" anymore...
Well don't forget that regular joe haze zero special rules; plus if you extrapolate from the latest rumors with Havoc's being 13 that reg Joe may be as well.
Sisters have their silly faith stuff, but I agree. lulz...
Sorry pretre, time to update more! Thanks again for your hard work.
Faeit 212 updated their info today, with this:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
The 25th is the white dwarf which is all about the new starter and chaos space marines.
Pre-Orders for the new starter set begin on the 25th, for release on the 1st.
Pre-Order for Chaos Space Marines go up on the 8th and the entirety of their range will be released in two waves on the 15th and the 29th.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
BDJV wrote:Well don't forget that regular joe haze zero special rules; plus if you extrapolate from the latest rumors with Havoc's being 13 that reg Joe may be as well.
Sisters have their silly faith stuff, but I agree. lulz...
If Chaos Marines keep all of their wargear but lose 1 LD and are reduced to 13 as you say, or even 14...dang. That's gonna be ridiculous. 15 point Marines was good as it was but being reduced to 13 is pretty crazy.
I also feel like Phil Kelly really likes heavy weapon squads. First Long Fangs, and now Havocs. Even if all of their heavy stuff gets reduced in price by only 10 points, that'll be 23 point Autocannon Marines!
I think CSM's losing LD would be one of the few things that would make me throw dummy out of the pram... what justification at all is there for that? These guys live in the bowls of a nightmare most of the time and manage to maintain coherency...
TBH though.. I don't understand the winging otherwise. We've not seen any of the rules, we're only going off rumours.. some of which contradict one another and most don't give half the details of the units.. how many special rules and the likes have we seen amongst these rumours?
Peh. Dreadnought starting with a PF.. so.. what upgrades does the dude get? Can he be demoniacally possessed and run round with a 5++. No pods? How about warp rifts?
We've been let down massively with the last codex and left to put up with it for years but lets try and stay positive. You guys kill any excitement with this perpetual cynicism.
Most of this sounds pretty interesting (even Abbadon), but poor Huron has to roll random powers each turn? That terrible with his Mastery Level 1. Oh well, he wasn't popular before anyways.
I'm interested in seeing how the cultist upgrades work (looks like they can get the flails?) with Tzeentch and Slaanesh. The other gods better get something as cool as turning them into zombies
Semper wrote:I think CSM's losing LD would be one of the few things that would make me throw dummy out of the pram... what justification at all is there for that? These guys live in the bowls of a nightmare most of the time and manage to maintain coherency...
I have to agree.
Marines get ATSKNF. CSMs get Ld9. It's the 'balance' between the two. Reducing them to Ld8 kinda kills that.
But then again maybe they'll get their own Leadership rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TzeentchNet wrote:... but poor Huron has to roll random powers each turn?
Remember that it's 6th Ed now, where Random = Cinematic!
Some good stuff here in this last update, but on the average...meh.
Special Characters show how damn lazy GW has become. Pretty much all of them are "same as before, BUT" and then some minor change. Kharn will still be PF fodder but a bit worse, Huron is still lame but now doesn't even get to know what powers he'll have. Bile still blows. Ahriman and Lucius actually sound interesting, depending on their cost.
The Hellbeast 'dread' is a laugh. A walker striking at Iniatiative 1 is free victory points to any unit with grenades now.
No different Landraider options.
Dragon is way too expensive and not durable anough to face the cheap flyer spams by IG and Necrons. Probably coming in the overcrowded Heavy slot.
Daemon Weapons still smack you, Possessed still roll to determine if they are a waste of points or not. Chosen lose Infiltrate, which was actually still helpful for them as they were a shooty unit. (Only sternguard get to show up on the enemy flank via drop pod and hit defenseless troops!)
No access to Divination, which is bunk. Guess they are saving it for the 'good' guys so they keep buying.
Unique items actually seem nice, depending on their cost. But overall, is feels like a good 5th edition army from before assault was made complicated and unreliable.
Palindrome wrote:There is speculation and then there is baseless whining. Guess what this thread is full of?
Whatever opinions tossed out here, positive or negative, are based on the latest rumors. It's entirely possible that they data is not accurate and the opinions are void. But it's entirely legitimate to opine of what they would mean for the army in the meantime.
Sephyr wrote:Dragon is way too expensive and not durable anough to face the cheap flyer spams by IG and Necrons. Probably coming in the overcrowded Heavy slot.
It has a 5+ invulnerable save, is immune to stunned/shaken and recovers a HP once a turn on a 5+ roll. And we don't actually know how many HP it has.
Palindrome wrote:There is speculation and then there is baseless whining. Guess what this thread is full of?
Pretty much. I'm sure we'll see people freak out about "I1" Hell Brutes at least 10 more times, even though its been pointed out multiple times MC and walkers strike at initiative with powerfists. But of course when you invalidate the reasons people have for ranting, you are a fanboy and shouldn't bother reading past the first post. Same gak, different codex.
Melissia wrote:Have CSM players EVER been satisfied with a codex?
I submit that, as a general group, they have not.
Jokes aside, I'm interested in what this Dragon is.... might be fun to convert in to something for my IG. Dunno though, if it's an honest to Emperor MC it wouldn't work, but if it's a vehicle...
I'm actually alright with the 4th edition codex, having done fun things with it and have only fielded a single squad of PM once-no cookie cutter lists for me. That said, I didn't get to experience the 3.5 codex. I also look forward to having 16pt Noise Marines if the newest rumors work out: I have a bunch of fully metal 3rd edition models of them, and I'll really enjoy fielding them with my daemons. Of course, if I don't enjoy the codex, I'll probably offload my Chaos Marines. I'm looking to thin down Warhammer armies, so if the CSM book fails to impress me, my models will go. It depends on the options and how fun it is, not the over-powered-ness of it.
The codex still sounds meh, since our troops and hqs have had only minor tweaks. Abbadon making chosen troops seems interesting though would have prefered he made chaos termi's troops.
English Assassin wrote:If you so resent speculative discussion of rumours so much, why do you even read past the summary on page 1?
What's funny is that these same people who go into threads about speculative rumor discussion and complain because people are speculatively discussing rumors are probably also the same type of people who think that if you criticize GW in a thread about GW then you shouldn't post on the forums at all.
It's just more of that "If you don't agree with me you aren't allowed to have a voice!" bs, nothing more.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Marines get ATSKNF. CSMs get Ld9. It's the 'balance' between the two. Reducing them to Ld8 kinda kills that.
But then again maybe they'll get their own Leadership rule.
I think it balances out as CSM have more visceral bonuses with things like BP/CCW and access to marks which change their statlines. Loyalist Marines get LD9 almost all the time anyway, since sergeants are mandatory.
Brother SRM wrote: Loyalist Marines get LD9 almost all the time anyway, since sergeants are mandatory.
While I agree that HAS been true for the past 4 years during 5th edition, I'd disagree that it's the case anymore in 6th. Between directional wound allocation/challenges/ precision shots, sergeants are much less likely to survive a game that at any time since 3rd edition. I suspect the number of marine squads running around leaderless most of the game will increase dramatically this edition.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Marines get ATSKNF. CSMs get Ld9. It's the 'balance' between the two. Reducing them to Ld8 kinda kills that.
But then again maybe they'll get their own Leadership rule.
I think it balances out as CSM have more visceral bonuses with things like BP/CCW and access to marks which change their statlines. Loyalist Marines get LD9 almost all the time anyway, since sergeants are mandatory.
Regular Marines do pay a hefty twenty-six points for those sergeants, however. Though fairly comparing choices in different slots is difficult, at 90 points for five Chosen or five Tactical Marines, I know which I'd choose (though five Wolf Guard would, of course, be even better, getting two base attacks for the same points cost). (Presuming Chosen do as rumoured cost eighteen points, maintain their present statline, etc., etc.)
More importantly, a high Leadership characteristic has always (since Slaves to Darkness) been the Traitor Marines' signature, so I'd be saddened were it to disappear.
90pts for 5 Chosen or 5 Tacs is a no-brainer. Scoring units trump every time.
13pts isn't all that cheap compared to guys who come with Combat Tactics, ATSKNF, and Combat Squads built-in. The former two of which are ungodly good in this edition.
I don't think combat squads are anything to scoff at, either. Being able to take two scoring units and split them into four is still pretty useful. Probably more useful for xenos now, thanks to allies, but still.
Another little detail from his secret source/sauce, it says we should be seeing all the new chaos range by the end of Sep. However it doesnt seem that KB may be getting new sculpts just yet :( Ohwell, one less punch to my wallet I guess.
It may not be as long as that. However given that GW are probably in full lockdown mode after the massive leak last week we probably wont be seeign anything until release day
Palindrome wrote:However given that GW are probably in full lockdown mode after the massive leak last week we probably wont be seeign anything until release day
And in order to buy something you'll have to know a guy who knows a guy, and buy it in an unmarked paper bag behind the store. Cash only.
Question:
Most newer dexes seem to include two to three flyers:
Dark eldar, Orks via WD, necrons...
Anyone think we'll be getting more than the dragon? The dragon being a "fighter" of sorts, ant word on some sort of bomber?
//Calle (who loved 3.5, but is worried on how to make a fluffy DG list that is able to tackle flyers).
Jag_Calle wrote:
Anyone think we'll be getting more than the dragon? The dragon being a "fighter" of sorts, ant word on some sort of bomber?
//Calle (who loved 3.5, but is worried on how to make a fluffy DG list that is able to tackle flyers).
I think they may eventually release one independently via WD, like the Stormtalon, or allow the ForgeWorld models that include a fighter. That's just speculation, though.
Nicorex wrote: Zerkers with chain axes are St4 AP4.. WOW thats what they are now! (sarcasm).
they don't have an ap value now...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TalonZahn wrote:
Half the stuff went up in cost, and in some cases lost an ability/rule to boot. For example Chosen now cost more, and are worse than before.
They said the point cost for the special weapons went down. So, it could balance out to be a point decrease, once you factor in weapons
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TzeentchNet wrote:Most of this sounds pretty interesting (even Abbadon), but poor Huron has to roll random powers each turn? That terrible with his Mastery Level 1. Oh well, he wasn't popular before anyways.
I'm interested in seeing how the cultist upgrades work (looks like they can get the flails?) with Tzeentch and Slaanesh. The other gods better get something as cool as turning them into zombies
We should know more this week
Huron GETS to roll random powers each turn! That sounds like a lot of fun! I've been rolling on the telekinesis chart every game, trying to get the power that lets me shoot someone with their own unit, and I've never gotten it. If I got to reroll my power each turn, then maybe I'll actually be able to use it for once
I hope the Abaddon rumors are true... I have 25 Chosen Terminators and 50 Chosen Black Legion... please please please make them Troops.
I will just need to add some Dragons and I'll be good to go. Combine that with Allied Daemons and I will finally be able to play the Black Legion I have always wanted... and my wife can't wait to have a true Dark Apostle leading a seething mass of rabid cultists. Chaos is making a comeback finally, after more than a year of getting curb stomped by the GK and BA in our house I am seeing some epic battles in the near future.
Jag_Calle wrote:Question:
Most newer dexes seem to include two to three flyers:
Dark eldar, Orks via WD, necrons...
Anyone think we'll be getting more than the dragon? The dragon being a "fighter" of sorts, ant word on some sort of bomber?
//Calle (who loved 3.5, but is worried on how to make a fluffy DG list that is able to tackle flyers).
I'm hopping to see the Stormtalon or Stormraven in the new dex. The Stormraven atleast has been in issue since the Heresy so why would chaos not have any. I doubt the Raven would become a flyer if it wasn't FAQed as one yet, just stating my opinion of wanting one.
But the Dragon my have 2 variants like the Necron's. I doubt we'll see another 2 models type release like the DE simply because its so much more work for the sculptors.
kenzosan wrote:I'm hopping to see the Stormtalon or Stormraven in the new dex. The Stormraven atleast has been in issue since the Heresy so why would chaos not have any.
For the same reason (you get to choose) they have no Pods, no Land Speeders, and only 1 type of Land Raider.
Here's your choices;
1) They left them all behind when retreating into the Eye of Terror - a.k.a. too stupid to grab their gear and go/forgot to get it from the planets they owned before they left.
2) They have NO WAY of manufacturing them.
3) Everyhing left on the current battlefield CANNOT be taken as salvage and must be left, scuttled, or melted down.
4) Renegades only take what they can carry, nothing else. (See points 1 and 3) I mean seriously, if I was driving a Land Raider Crusader and decided to join Chaos all of a sudden, I'd just get out and walk.
5) Chaos Marines are forging a narrative.
I highly doubt CSM will ever see Raven/Talon and their new fighter/dragon will probably be a air superiority type of craft with zero transport capabilities. Which is fine by me actually. The end point for GW is to prove that CSM are not "Evil" SM, although they are, but not really.
Here is another explaination for Chaos Marines not necessarily having drop pods... GW's portrayel of Chaos Marines are moving more towards a force that has an integrated hierarchy utilizing cultists. That is a handful of marines with a bunch of guys who probably couldn't survive a drop pod drop. Cultist's aren't the most disciplined and need their marine's close by (at least present in the warzone) or else they'd likely run... It is that Chaos marines without the vast supplies and reinforcements that the Imperium has access to that they're forced to rely on cultists and that reliance imposes a tactical compromise in the need to act in a command capacity not conducive with an overly specialized drop force.
aka_mythos wrote:Here is another explaination for Chaos Marines not necessarily having drop pods... GW's portrayel of Chaos Marines are moving more towards a force that has an integrated hierarchy utilizing cultists. That is a handful of marines with a bunch of guys who probably couldn't survive a drop pod drop. Cultist's aren't the most disciplined and need their marine's close by (at least present in the warzone) or else they'd likely run... It is that Chaos marines without the vast supplies and reinforcements that the Imperium has access to that they're forced to rely on cultists and that reliance imposes a tactical compromise in the need to act in a command capacity not conducive with an overly specialized drop force.
Thank you for chosing option 5.
You have successfully forged a narrative. Please step forward and collect your prize.
My narrative is closer to the words GW has written and not implied. My Legion controls 2 planets covered in machinery inside the Eye. Structures so large they dock warships to them and the surface is covered by machines and their factories. I play Imperial Fists.
Anyway... I don't think CSM will see any current SM units added for two reasons; 1) CSM aren't SM with spikes and GW is intent on that point or they would cut & paste the SM Codex into the CSM Codex. 2) There's been no mention in any rumors from anywhere on the webZ that indicates these units will be added.
I'd think that if the Raven or Talon were in even hinted at in the very first CSM Codex playtesting rules, we would have known about 5 minutes after that playtester got those rules.
kenzosan wrote:I'm hopping to see the Stormtalon or Stormraven in the new dex. The Stormraven atleast has been in issue since the Heresy so why would chaos not have any.
For the same reason (you get to choose) they have no Pods, no Land Speeders, and only 1 type of Land Raider.
Here's your choices;
1) They left them all behind when retreating into the Eye of Terror - a.k.a. too stupid to grab their gear and go/forgot to get it from the planets they owned before they left.
2) They have NO WAY of manufacturing them.
3) Everyhing left on the current battlefield CANNOT be taken as salvage and must be left, scuttled, or melted down.
4) Renegades only take what they can carry, nothing else. (See points 1 and 3) I mean seriously, if I was driving a Land Raider Crusader and decided to join Chaos all of a sudden, I'd just get out and walk.
5) Chaos Marines are forging a narrative.
I highly doubt CSM will ever see Raven/Talon and their new fighter/dragon will probably be a air superiority type of craft with zero transport capabilities. Which is fine by me actually. The end point for GW is to prove that CSM are not "Evil" SM, although they are, but not really.
They do have a pod, technically. Forge World made one.
Alternate Land Raiders. Fluff wise, don't know how many variants there were in the Heresy (a thousand sons only mentioned a Land Raider no other designation)
I have no idea if chaos have a forge world but they should. They have had a damn good amount of time. Plus they have Titans and tanks. They have to be making them somehow. Same for all their weapons. If not, then everything they field should be some Chaos hybrid.
As for Renegades, your telling me you go renegade and you'd LEAVE A LAND RAIDER BEHIND?! I'm sorry but I'm taking every flying machine that can transport armies, that includes the Land Raiders, Titans, and Basilisks, you name it I'm taking it. Your abandoning the Empire. Do you really want to fight against every single tank in the Empire with 1 Lascannon when you can take a flying fortress and all it's weapons and tanks?
I want new units, I don't want reworkings of existing ones (ie Land Raiders and Storm Talons). But aside from the Defiler, when have they done that for us? Our troops aren't even special. The Dragon is the first thing that isn't in the SM codex that is in the CSM other than the Defiler and Spawn. Cultists, Chosen, Possesed are all just Space marines with special rules. So if you ask me, a reworked Talon or Raven are more likely than a completely new model, but an alternate build to the Dragon is the most likely.
Btw. Just want to add that I love how you took it so out of context I forgot what I posted in the first place. I said I expect a variant of the Dragon and I only wanted the Raven/Talon.
aka_mythos wrote:Here is another explaination for Chaos Marines not necessarily having drop pods... GW's portrayel of Chaos Marines are moving more towards a force that has an integrated hierarchy utilizing cultists. That is a handful of marines with a bunch of guys who probably couldn't survive a drop pod drop. Cultist's aren't the most disciplined and need their marine's close by (at least present in the warzone) or else they'd likely run... It is that Chaos marines without the vast supplies and reinforcements that the Imperium has access to that they're forced to rely on cultists and that reliance imposes a tactical compromise in the need to act in a command capacity not conducive with an overly specialized drop force.
Eh, just make a rule that says that Cultists are leadership gak (which they probably are already) unless there is a non-cultist unit on the board. There's plenty of stories where chaos mooks rise up against the local authorities and the spiky marines show up after the blood starts flowing. Plus the Night Lords use plenty of drop pods in their trilogy.
Anyway, the Dragon flier better the best sculpt ever because right now a flying dragon head just sounds goofy. I'm also less than impressed with using marks to create a themed army. An improved invuln save isn't what defines the Thousand Sons, sorcerers throwing around crazy powers is what defines them. Ditto EC and better initiative vs sonic weapons. Give us a way to slap sorcerers/rubrics into anything that is/was a marine adn sonic weapons onto anything that moves and then we'll be cooking with gas. And don't bring up page counts. 3.5 took up 12 pages for cult legions and eight pages for the others (BL doesn't really need a specific entry), plus the 3.5 codex was paper thin, especially relative to the monstrosity that was the 5e C:SM, so page count really shouldn't enter into it.
aka_mythos wrote:Here is another explaination for Chaos Marines not necessarily having drop pods... GW's portrayel of Chaos Marines are moving more towards a force that has an integrated hierarchy utilizing cultists. That is a handful of marines with a bunch of guys who probably couldn't survive a drop pod drop. Cultist's aren't the most disciplined and need their marine's close by (at least present in the warzone) or else they'd likely run... It is that Chaos marines without the vast supplies and reinforcements that the Imperium has access to that they're forced to rely on cultists and that reliance imposes a tactical compromise in the need to act in a command capacity not conducive with an overly specialized drop force.
Eh, just make a rule that says that Cultists are leadership gak (which they probably are already) unless there is a non-cultist unit on the board. There's plenty of stories where chaos mooks rise up against the local authorities and the spiky marines show up after the blood starts flowing. Plus the Night Lords use plenty of drop pods in their trilogy.
Anyway, the Dragon flier better the best sculpt ever because right now a flying dragon head just sounds goofy. I'm also less than impressed with using marks to create a themed army. An improved invuln save isn't what defines the Thousand Sons, sorcerers throwing around crazy powers is what defines them. Ditto EC and better initiative vs sonic weapons. Give us a way to slap sorcerers/rubrics into anything that is/was a marine adn sonic weapons onto anything that moves and then we'll be cooking with gas. And don't bring up page counts. 3.5 took up 12 pages for cult legions and eight pages for the others (BL doesn't really need a specific entry), plus the 3.5 codex was paper thin, especially relative to the monstrosity that was the 5e C:SM, so page count really shouldn't enter into it.
We'll see what September brings.
This is what I like. I mean thats been my problem with 1000 suns and emperors children for so long. +1 stat is not a theme.
I just want my Termis to have psyker powers or sonic weapons. I still don't understand how a simple "may have terminator armor for +x points per model" can't be put into the Cultist entry. "O no, Chaos cant have troop choices that are termies, that would be op."
kenzosan wrote:Btw. Just want to add that I love how you took it so out of context I forgot what I posted in the first place. I said I expect a variant of the Dragon and I only wanted the Raven/Talon.
I was actually agreeing with you and you missed the giant sarcasm bomb I dropped in my post.
That's the entire point..... CSMshould have everything that SM's do and then MORE as they are isolated (to a point) to develop their own tech or have it mutated into any number of things.
SM get rule X, CSM get rule Y to balance.
SM get Vehicle A, CSM get Vehicle A1 to balance.
Like I said, it will never happen. Despite the fact that GW laid out the Legions, mirrored them almost to the letter, and cut them in half Good vs. Evil style... GW will never make it that simple. So their only way out of writing themselves into a corner is to give and take where they want much to the dismay of many of their players/customers.
kenzosan wrote:
They do have a pod, technically. Forge World made one.
Alternate Land Raiders. Fluff wise, don't know how many variants there were in the Heresy (a thousand sons only mentioned a Land Raider no other designation)
I have no idea if chaos have a forge world but they should. They have had a damn good amount of time. Plus they have Titans and tanks. They have to be making them somehow. Same for all their weapons. If not, then everything they field should be some Chaos hybrid.
As for Renegades, your telling me you go renegade and you'd LEAVE A LAND RAIDER BEHIND?! I'm sorry but I'm taking every flying machine that can transport armies, that includes the Land Raiders, Titans, and Basilisks, you name it I'm taking it. Your abandoning the Empire. Do you really want to fight against every single tank in the Empire with 1 Lascannon when you can take a flying fortress and all it's weapons and tanks?
...
Chaos went into the Eye of Terror with roughly half of the Mechanicum and all the factory ships that had been supporting the Great Crusade, so they have the industrial capacity.
I think the simpliest explanation is that members of the Dark Mechanicum are techpriests that would rather experiment on developing daemon enfused weapons before developing/building a new weapon load out for a land raider... to that end Chaos just gets what comes out of the Land Raider factory when the least effort is put into it. My explanation for Renegades is that as a Land Raider's weapons are damaged or destroyed the easiest repair is one the returns it to its most basic configuration.
kenzosan wrote:
I want new units, I don't want reworkings of existing ones (ie Land Raiders and Storm Talons). But aside from the Defiler, when have they done that for us? Our troops aren't even special. The Dragon is the first thing that isn't in the SM codex that is in the CSM other than the Defiler and Spawn. Cultists, Chosen, Possesed are all just Space marines with special rules. So if you ask me, a reworked Talon or Raven are more likely than a completely new model, but an alternate build to the Dragon is the most likely...
In addition to the Dragon we're rumored to get two other new Daemon engines... that makes me very happy.
it comes out of the warp variantized into "Warped Landraider"
Who is to say how the warp affects a landraider. Maybe it makes it larger, giving it higher carrying capacity. Maybe it becomes daemonically posessed, ignoring all glancing hits. Maybe the guns are affected somehow altering the range, strength, ap, number of shots, or shot type.
Who knows what the warp will do to it. This is a perfect fluff to ANY chaos landraider variant. Insert vanilla land raider into warp, out pops warped landraider variant.
kenzosan wrote:Alternate Land Raiders. Fluff wise, don't know how many variants there were in the Heresy (a thousand sons only mentioned a Land Raider no other designation)
Several. There are at least two variants of the Mk1 Proteus as well as the Spartan offshoot and HH art showing the MkII in chaos legion hands.
Ok that is all I got guys every last drop of rumor juice is gone! Enjoy, oh wait what is this at the bottom of my cup…
Prepare to be Despoiled
Abaddon is still one bad ass. His stats and cost remain the same. He will always be your Warlord. Drach’nyen: Demon Weapon, Specialist Weapon, +1 str ap2. Talon of Horus: x2 str, re-roll wounds, BA get hatred to Abaddon, Any friendly unit within 12″ of Abaddon gets Preferred Enemy. The biggest thing about Abaddon though is he makes CHOSEN TROOPS!
I
I thought Abaddon may have been conspicuously omitted from recent rumors for a good reason. Preferred enemy bubble and Chosen troops? It's about time to saddle up the 14th Crusade boys, Pensacola's Abaddon is going on a road trip very soon.
Probably very true, but I was able to come up with a good looking fig by using the finecast Abaddon and the torso / base for the plastic Chaos Terminator Lord. Need to get pictures of that puppy up and give you guys an example but suffice to say he is one PO'd mothertrucker.
I wonder if there is a cultist HQ? I hope there is... Just so I can have a legal army with Daemons & Cultists (no marines, that's for my other army ) + the Dragon
decoste007xt wrote:I knew before there was talk of Chaos Legions, is that thrown out the window and all of those rumors are actually focused towards this new CSM codex?
Basically yes. Rumours now say, name will be Codex Chaos Space Marines. Seems like there is a bigger focus on Legions in it. But most rumour sources on this Codex are "untested" (except Hastings and Erazmus), so it is difficult to tell.
aka_mythos wrote:Chaos went into the Eye of Terror with roughly half of the Mechanicum and all the factory ships that had been supporting the Great Crusade, so they have the industrial capacity.
Do they have STCs though? Most of the pre-heresy stuff cannot be retro-engineered according to current lore.
aka_mythos wrote:Chaos went into the Eye of Terror with roughly half of the Mechanicum and all the factory ships that had been supporting the Great Crusade, so they have the industrial capacity.
Do they have STCs though? Most of the pre-heresy stuff cannot be retro-engineered according to current lore.
Thats highly likely given that they are factory ships and the state of the current 40k scientific knowledge falls quite far short of that at the Heresy, its likely that the Dark Mechanicus is more advanced than the Adeptus Mechanicus and could reverse engineer complex technologies.
I don't know, you're replacing insane machine god worshiping loons with insane chaos god worshiping loons. I'm sure the Chaos Legions are more open to innovation than the Imperium, but that's probably off set by the chances of your lab assistant murdering you in a bid for power or your face gaining sentience and running away to start a family.
kenzosan wrote:Btw. Just want to add that I love how you took it so out of context I forgot what I posted in the first place. I said I expect a variant of the Dragon and I only wanted the Raven/Talon.
I was actually agreeing with you and you missed the giant sarcasm bomb I dropped in my post.
That's the entire point..... CSMshould have everything that SM's do and then MORE as they are isolated (to a point) to develop their own tech or have it mutated into any number of things.
SM get rule X, CSM get rule Y to balance.
SM get Vehicle A, CSM get Vehicle A1 to balance.
Like I said, it will never happen. Despite the fact that GW laid out the Legions, mirrored them almost to the letter, and cut them in half Good vs. Evil style... GW will never make it that simple. So their only way out of writing themselves into a corner is to give and take where they want much to the dismay of many of their players/customers.
I'm sorry the conversation has flustered you.
I've had someone seriously use that argument against me so I know there are people that believe that. So yes I missed your sarcasm because I've met people that truly believe SM's should be so OP.
I think we need a Land Raider with no capacity, tentacles instead of Lascannons, and it eats units when they get tank shocked (2d6 save vs. I or get eaten), then sprays the blood out the top and forces a LD test -2 to all enemy within 12".
I'm sure we can come up with some more, but the thread would really go off the rail then.
aka_mythos wrote:Chaos went into the Eye of Terror with roughly half of the Mechanicum and all the factory ships that had been supporting the Great Crusade, so they have the industrial capacity.
Do they have STCs though? Most of the pre-heresy stuff cannot be retro-engineered according to current lore.
Horus secured Mechanicum support for his revellion with a big batch of STCs, and since the traitors fled with forge-ships into the Eye, not to mention the many chaos strongholds across the galaxy that took centuries to be fully excised after the rebellion, it's safe to say that Chaos has plenty of STC for the stuff they do need. Factions that actively pursue a Long War, like the Iron Warriors, Abaddon, and even the Word Bearers know that logistics and materiel win wars.
As for daemonic interference, it's a factor but should actually be more of a boon. Picture the following scenes:
Eye of Terror Planet, take 1:
Chaos Lord: Hey you, tech-slave! You fixed this plasma pistol for me and when i pulled the trigger, it exploded and vaporized my left arm right when I was about to headshot Dante. What gives?
Tech-slave: Ohh, glorious omnissiah be praised! So the daemon I put in the pistol exploded like I expected! This is most valuable data! Since you have an arm left, my lord, would you mind testing this pistol I infused with a nurgle gonorrhea daemon next?
Chaos Lord: *stomps tech-slave into tomato paste*
-intermission-
Eye of Terror Planet, take 2:
Chaos Lord: Hey you, tech-slave! You fixed this plasma pistol for me and ever since it stopped frying my fingers every five shots. What sorcery is this?
Tech-slave: Ahh, most fortunate, my lord! I cast aside the blind worship of the lackeys of the Corpse-Emperor and dared to improve on its design, after testing it on a few slaves. To think that the coolant coil they believed scred was actually shorting the dispersal units! Truly Tzeentch inspired me to make this change in the name of chaos!
Chaos Lord: Your service has pleased me, Tech-slave. You get a week pass at Slaanesh's Den of Vices. Grab a techno-hooker out of petty cash!
You can see how one behavior would tend to work out better than the other in the long run, and prevail.
And then we can compare with standard imperial procedure...
Chapter Fortress of the Imperial Elbows
Chapter Master: Honorable tech-serf, the spirits of my plasma gun have been very restive as of late. What salves and prayers have you used on it?
Tech-serf: Why m'lud, I just cracked it open and removed some sparking wires. Turn out they were a flaw in the design and may have cost the lives of millions in the millenia of use this pattern has been in use.
Chapter Master: This is HERESY MOST FOUL!
*tech-serf is vaporized, all copies of the new gun get burned, entire Chapter takes a century-long crusade of penitence, Inquisitors begin dropping by and poking at your gene-seed*
aka_mythos wrote:Chaos went into the Eye of Terror with roughly half of the Mechanicum and all the factory ships that had been supporting the Great Crusade, so they have the industrial capacity.
Do they have STCs though? Most of the pre-heresy stuff cannot be retro-engineered according to current lore.
Others have already said yes... So I'll just add to it... No way of knowing how much the warp messes with STC technology and even still the capabilities it affords chaos is probably predominately used for daemon engines over moare land raider variants.
Brother SRM wrote:
I think it balances out as CSM have more CINEMATIC bonuses with things like BP/CCW and access to marks which change their statlines. Loyalist Marines get LD9 almost all the time anyway, since sergeants are CINEMATIC.
Brother SRM wrote:
I think it balances out as CSM have more CINEMATIC bonuses with things like BP/CCW and access to marks which change their statlines. Loyalist Marines get LD9 almost all the time anyway, since sergeants are CINEMATIC.
Fixed that for you. Lets craft a narrative!
I don't see what's random or whatever the buzzword is about Chaos Marines and loyalist Marines having different advantages.
Think we can expect a new Battleforce?
Current one could probably suffice, for now.
I expect to see a unit of cultists replace the Berserkers if they change anything, and maybe swap out the five man and the possessed for something else, like a small squad of raptors or maybe 3 of those new melee-oblits.
Sunoccard wrote:Think we can expect a new Battleforce?
Current one could probably suffice, for now.
I expect to see a unit of cultists replace the Berserkers if they change anything, and maybe swap out the five man and the possessed for something else, like a small squad of raptors or maybe 3 of those new melee-oblits.
It's a distinct possibility. I don't think any other battleforces have stayed the same after a codex change, not even Necrons.
Sunoccard wrote:Think we can expect a new Battleforce?
Current one could probably suffice, for now.
I expect to see a unit of cultists replace the Berserkers if they change anything, and maybe swap out the five man and the possessed for something else, like a small squad of raptors or maybe 3 of those new melee-oblits.
It's a distinct possibility. I don't think any other battleforces have stayed the same after a codex change, not even Necrons.
We should because they add the new models in there. Necrons got the Ghost Arc. Dark Eldar got, well, everything since they redesigned all the models.
I foresee the Beserkers and Rhino being removed to make room for the new MC/walker and a different elite choice. As it stands right now the Chaos battle force doesn't have what it needs for a battle force: 15 csm, 8 beserkers, 5 possesed, and a rhino (if beserkers are made elites theres not enough troops)
Sunoccard wrote:Think we can expect a new Battleforce?
Current one could probably suffice, for now.
I expect to see a unit of cultists replace the Berserkers if they change anything, and maybe swap out the five man and the possessed for something else, like a small squad of raptors or maybe 3 of those new melee-oblits.
It's a distinct possibility. I don't think any other battleforces have stayed the same after a codex change, not even Necrons.
We should because they add the new models in there. Necrons got the Ghost Arc. Dark Eldar got, well, everything since they redesigned all the models.
I foresee the Beserkers and Rhino being removed to make room for the new MC/walker and a different elite choice. As it stands right now the Chaos battle force doesn't have what it needs for a battle force: 15 csm, 8 beserkers, 5 possesed, and a rhino (if beserkers are made elites theres not enough troops)
Well. off the top of my head the Orks, Dark Eldar, and SM battle forces are bassicly: 2 troop units, a transport, and a fast attack unit. Right not CSM get 2 and 1/2 troop units, 1/2 a elite, and a transport.
If I was to take a stab in the dark it's going to be 10 CSM, 10 Cultists, a rhino, and something "new" from the fast attack.
The new deamon flyer is to big for a battle force, and their is going to be rhino for the vheclie. so it can't be that. So that leaves the rumored new CSM biker kit and the rumored new plastic raptors/Assault CSM. Personally I think 3 Chaos Bikers would the perfect choice.
I am surprised nobody has commented on Abbadon... Preferred enemy bubble 12"..... that's absolutely insane. Noise marines or T-sons re-rolling ones to hit and wound is insane. The flier seems sick too, I wonder what it's ST is for it's vector strike but the fact that it never has to evade and is immune to stun lock makes that thing super efficient as well. Then apparently it got butcher canons and the walker got 2!!!.... Expect chaos to be the new shooty Fething army of doom. if the fliers are FA, the walkers Elite, then taking missile toting havocs makes the most ludicrous fire output yet.
In regards to the LR, you had to know it wouldn't get better. They don't want us using the plethora of LR most chaos players already own, they want us buying the new crap.
I am taking salt with these but it looks like they added a lot and fixed some of the minor issues that were in the current codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Damn Abby with squads of 5 plasma gun chosen is sick too, that's 30 scoring plasma guns that get to re-roll their gets hot and failed wound rolls.....INSANE!
Take this with some nice, delicious salt but the games stores around my area have been told the Chaos Space Marine codex is no longer available. However it is still up at Games Workshops site.
TalonZahn wrote:I think we need a Land Raider with no capacity, tentacles instead of Lascannons, and it eats units when they get tank shocked (2d6 save vs. I or get eaten), then sprays the blood out the top and forces a LD test -2 to all enemy within 12".
I'm sure we can come up with some more, but the thread would really go off the rail then.
make it 3d6, and if the unit has ATSKNF the LD test is -4 and the effects of ATSKNF are nullified for one game turn regardless of if they pass or not
I pulled the starter stuff from the 
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Same gak, different codex.
