Clanan wrote: Worth mentioning that both PP and MM have easy-to-find Contact info. Besides posting in a forum, let them know your thoughts. I did, and I was surprised at how quickly PP responded to my comments.
Motograter wrote: Only buy pp stuff online with 30%+ off as they offer no real value for money and lgs dropped them. Don't play pp in a game store, wont subsidize those who do. Just wont buy pp stuff. There are plenty other games out there. PP are just shooting themselves in the foot. No great loss
For OLGS-Only Buyers/Fans, please don't buy into the narrative that you are somehow subsidizing B&M stores.
You're not. OLGSs just use a different model and the larger ones in particular can survive while providing deeper discounts due to the volumes at which they sell.
If anything, B&M stores are saving OLGS buyers by providing a place where MSRP is often a standard/baseline.
If the independent B&Ms go away, PP and others have the choice of keeping OLGS middle men in business as they do currently OR selling Direct Only.
GW could do it with ease. Asmodee could, too. PP is the next source up for consideration that could probably do it.
They don't currently sell all their stuff via their online store but that could probably be fixed inside a month of uploads.
Last year, I bought into Warmachine/Hordes to give it a try (started with Cryx, then realized I liked Cygnar better). Bought an army for my son (Everblight, got the starter set so I could also try out Orboros). I'd been trying to get four of my friends to try the game out (Skarne, Trollbloods & two undecided) as a replacement for WHFB.
I'd been on the fence about getting more, but with this latest turn of events, I've marked them off my gaming to-buy list and won't be encouraging my friend to buy in. Good job, PP.
privateer4hire wrote: For OLGS-Only Buyers/Fans, please don't buy into the narrative that you are somehow subsidizing B&M stores. You're not.
So if a product is available for X but you have to pay X+1 as a minimum so a retailer with a certain business model can be profitable, how is the +1 not a subsidy?
privateer4hire wrote: For OLGS-Only Buyers/Fans, please don't buy into the narrative that you are somehow subsidizing B&M stores. You're not.
So if a product is available for X but you have to pay X+1 as a minimum so a retailer with a certain business model can be profitable, how is the +1 not a subsidy?
Because that +1 isn't actually going to the B&M stores, ergo it isn't really a subsidy as the money goes to the OLGS instead which...seems mildly counter-productive but I guess they feel that without discounts nobody would ever opt to "delivered to my door without fuss"?
The problem really is that PP clearly expects services to be bundled with their product and that is why they have set the MSRP as they have. If you're buying something in a concierge-type experience then yes, it will cost more than the "goods + overhead" because you've crossed into the realm of "goods + overhead + service". In this model, the discount offered by OLGS reflects the dropping of the costs of services not received, which oddly enough for many B&M are ALSO not received but no discount is typically offered (see also: bad business models).
Essentially, PP feels you should be paying for built-in services rather than letting the market figure out costing for those add-on services, and thus the price is higher than it "needs" to be. Given the numerous and plentiful anecdata that small shops are not that great at conducting business, the idea that this is preferable is not without a basis in probable fact. At the end of the day, it was always more about PP passing the costs of their and the retail sector's mistakes onto the end-customers. If you can get someone else to pay for your missteps though, that's generally a good idea. Not sure that the people being asked to absorb those costs should be thrilled to do so, but that's people for you.
Because that +1 isn't actually going to the B&M stores, ergo it isn't really a subsidy as the money goes to the OLGS instead which...seems mildly counter-productive but I guess they feel that without discounts nobody would ever opt to "delivered to my door without fuss"?
Okay I see what is being said now. So it's not a subsidy but an extra amount you have to pay so the online store can have even better margins that they can use to reduce shipping charges so the end cost to the customer is the same as the previous discount.
So subsidy is the wrong word, but an extra fee to artificially prop up one business model over another would be more accurate.
So subsidy is the wrong word, but an extra fee to artificially prop up one business model over another would be more accurate.
Well, if you want to be REALLY accurate it's an extra fee to prop up one business model while greatly enriching the business model they supposedly don't like. For example, MM is now making an extra 20% for doing nothing different purely on the premise that now everyone will buy from B&M because there's no massive discount. This ignores that OLGS likely figure out ways to make the total cost still attractive that PP can't impact (loyalty points, faster shipping, etc) so that their volume really doesn't decrease that much while the struggling B&Ms still won't adjust how they do things.
Almost like one business is competing for money by finding innovative solutions to make them more enticing to customers or something...
privateer4hire wrote: For OLGS-Only Buyers/Fans, please don't buy into the narrative that you are somehow subsidizing B&M stores. You're not.
So if a product is available for X but you have to pay X+1 as a minimum so a retailer with a certain business model can be profitable, how is the +1 not a subsidy?
Because that +1 isn't actually going to the B&M stores, ergo it isn't really a subsidy as the money goes to the OLGS instead which...seems mildly counter-productive but I guess they feel that without discounts nobody would ever opt to "delivered to my door without fuss"?
The problem really is that PP clearly expects services to be bundled with their product and that is why they have set the MSRP as they have. If you're buying something in a concierge-type experience then yes, it will cost more than the "goods + overhead" because you've crossed into the realm of "goods + overhead + service". In this model, the discount offered by OLGS reflects the dropping of the costs of services not received, which oddly enough for many B&M are ALSO not received but no discount is typically offered (see also: bad business models).
Essentially, PP feels you should be paying for built-in services rather than letting the market figure out costing for those add-on services, and thus the price is higher than it "needs" to be. Given the numerous and plentiful anecdata that small shops are not that great at conducting business, the idea that this is preferable is not without a basis in probable fact. At the end of the day, it was always more about PP passing the costs of their and the retail sector's mistakes onto the end-customers. If you can get someone else to pay for your missteps though, that's generally a good idea. Not sure that the people being asked to absorb those costs should be thrilled to do so, but that's people for you.
The problem is that PP products don't seem to be valued as highly on the market as PP seems to think it should be valued. Whether this is because online discounters have been selling it for 20-30% off RRP or because most of it is in restic is up to the individual to decide.
YMMV, but most of my local FLGS are happy about this development. They've been losing ground steadily to online sales. Invariably, if there is a deep discount to be had somewhere, the customer base will strongly trend towards exhaust that source first, fueled by gamer ADD, getting the max models for their money, before buying elsewhere. If a brick and mortar store is supporting tabletop gaming by providing space and stocking decent inventory, that's easily 10's of thousands of dollars in inventory providing inconsistent (sometimes zero) cash-flow, and valuable store floor space is being used for tables instead of additional display space for other revenue generating products. If the store operates on "special order" only and vastly reduces stock, then they loose the customers who are impulse buying out of convenience, as the same product can be readily purchased at discount online for the same inconvenience.
To say that FLGS as miniatures sellers is failed business model is akin to admitting that community gaming hubs as are an unneeded service and do not deserve support. PP clearly believes that independent retailers are valuable to customer recruitment and sustainability of their product line. Undoubtedly, they are going to lose customers over this strategic choice. However, I think that this won't be borne out in the long run. New customers aren't going to know the days before online deep discounts, and as such, will be more likely to buy from their FLGS where community exists as added benefit. Old customers who are superfans/hardcore competitive gamers will keep buying. Customers who can not afford due to budget reasons, or who have crossed the threshold into "too much money for not enough value" will be unfortunately lost. I think the main difference between PP's action and GW's prior actions is that GW was simultaneously strong-arming the online stores and limiting supply to the FLGS at the same time to drive sales to their own channels. PP's actions seem more designed to push sales towards the local level support, and for those without local level support, without a doubt, higher prices suck, but they are supported by the same online outlets as before, just for somewhat more money.
-edit-
1. Restic sucks. We get it. Even guys who are supporters of PP hate the stuff. Has it gotten better? Yes. Do we all wish it would go away? Yes. Statements such as "I will never buy PP products because they are Restic" don't add any value to the conversation because as a customer, you will never buy Restic at any cost.
2. PP makes ugly models / don't make models I want to buy. We get it. The style is not for everyone. This doesn't add any value to the conversation because as a customer, you will never buy models you don't want to buy at any cost.
1. Restic sucks. We get it. Even guys who are supporters of PP hate the stuff. Has it gotten better? Yes. Do we all wish it would go away? Yes. Statements such as "I will never buy PP products because they are Restic" don't add any value to the conversation because as a customer, you will never buy Restic at any cost.
I'll disagree on that one, while restic is not a favourite due to the hassle of clean up I will buy it as for sculpts that have been done with its properties in mind are fine (but it has to be better value than a metal/HIPS alternative because of the clean up issues)
The problem is that PP has some really nice minis at some pretty stupid prices. Even their best minis are too expensive at MSRP to justify on their own merits. Only PP's loyal gamers will find enough added value to the IP to justify the MSRP, which defeats the whole "attracting new customers" schtick.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The problem is that PP has some really nice minis at some pretty stupid prices. Even their best minis are too expensive at MSRP to justify on their own merits. Only PP's loyal gamers will find enough added value to the IP to justify the MSRP, which defeats the whole "attracting new customers" schtick.
I don't think anyone agrees with ANYONE's MSRP; that's why everyone sells it for cheaper, and I think everyone but GW realizes that and accounts for it in their MSRP, so we all feel like we're getting a bargain.
But I don't like it when the company steps in and tries to tell us we're selling/buying it to cheap. Let the stores fight over that; those that don't get it right will go under.
I don't know Stormonu, I have bought Bones models and some Wargames Factory stuff at full retail and felt fine about the decision, not to mention a lot of nice boutique models from CMoN when they were one of the few stores with imports. There are price/value ratios that people accept, even at MSRP.
But yes, I also get irritated when a manufacturer tries to tell a store how cheaply they are allowed to sell me something. Very irritated.
And that's where you're wrong. I don't mind paying Corvus Belli's RRP's (which, per model in pretty much any size class, are usually even higher than PP's by quite a bit). That's not even a matter of simply not needing as many; I'm fairly sure my PanO alone stands at north of a hundred models by now.
But the reason I don't mind is the quality of those models. PP, while they do sell some stuff I like well enough, on balance simply doesn't really sell too many sculpts that are good enough to justify the absolute premium pricing they seem to think it's worth.
In a few months we'll be able to get Mierce's metal infantry at less than PP infantry, RRP vs RRP, for crying out loud...
keezus wrote: 1. Restic sucks. We get it. Even guys who are supporters of PP hate the stuff. Has it gotten better? Yes. Do we all wish it would go away? Yes. Statements such as "I will never buy PP products because they are Restic" don't add any value to the conversation because as a customer, you will never buy Restic at any cost.
Privateer makes metal miniatures. As well as excellent resin casts. And they have non-PVC plastic kits (also good). Pointing that out and talking about how bad or good one material is over another relative to the price is exactly appropriate to the conversation. It adds a ton to what we are talking about.
If PP wants its customer base to play GW plastic prices, it should be the same plastic. If not, the market will identify the real cost and if they prop up the price by going after discounters then they'll simply not sell to the people below the artificial price floor.
Restic very much matters to the conversation about price and discounting because it is a cheap and undesirable material.
Hopefully the new edition comes with a massive overhaul into a new plastic. More like the Transfinite Emergence Projector. In that material I will happily pay full retail.
Stormonu wrote: I don't think anyone agrees with ANYONE's MSRP; that's why everyone sells it for cheaper, and I think everyone but GW realizes that and accounts for it in their MSRP, so we all feel like we're getting a bargain.
But I don't like it when the company steps in and tries to tell us we're selling/buying it to cheap. Let the stores fight over that; those that don't get it right will go under.
The old WGF MSRP was right on. Bones' medium sized minis, like Giants, griffons and small dragons are all attractively priced. Historical sets by Victrix and the Perrys seem decent off the bat. Proxie, eccentric Minis, MEdge, Abandoned Frontier, Shieldwolf, and even Avatars of War (boxed sets only) have prices that feel reasonable. Some of Mantic and Wyrd's offerings are still good value even at retail prices. Yes, discounts make everything better, but some ranges don't require deep discounts just to stop feeling like a rip off.
And it turns out some discontinued GW plastics are unfortunately a steal at MSRP...
NoggintheNog wrote: All this talk about how much better it is to have the models stocked.
While completely ignoring that no FLGS has the space or stock funding to carry the vast number of SKUs PP actually have.
In the UK, I only know of a few places that have the full range. All of them are hybrids with b&M stores backed by huge online sales - Wayland, Element, Dark Sphere, Troll Trader (although they are stocking less it seems).
The FLGS model is broken in the context of large games because they simply cannot stock it all. that makes this move by PP, as it was previously from GW, a move to channel sales into their own web store more than anything altruistic.
I do. I carry 99% of everything PP has in stock. My problem is usually PP being out of stock of models I need. It takes a bit of wall space, but we've always carried everything.
Stores different in the UK maybe? I know many stores in the US carrying a huge line of PP. But less now than a couple of years ago. As time goes on, and stores notice they have more players, but less sales, they start to question keeping up the support for a game. And unlike GW, i don't think PP has much of a webstore. Some stuff, books/bodger games/RPG but very few models.
Yep. For every well run and organized place I've seen, with good lighting and decent space to play, there's at least one which resembles that cupboard/closet/garage/shed you've been meaning to clear out since 1998 - that may or may not include GWs.
Probably the whole small country/space is expensive thing us tiny island nations contend with. Retai space in decent locations can be expensive (recent years, not so much, but I'm sure it's headed back that way) rates are expensive once you're outside of your initial startup period (where there are concessions) etc etc.
As far as I can tell right now, starting a FLGS in the UK (and I mean taking a proper run at it, not just finding a low cost unit and stocking some Magic cards) would probably take an investment of capital that would take too many years to pay off for most people.
I believe PP is pushing the idea that people aren't subsidising brick and mortar, they are subsidising the game. If the flgs die, then the game will certainly shrink from lack of exposure and community. If brick and mortar stores didn't benefit games then those companies wouldn't bother to get those stores to sell them or host events. Without brick and mortar support, Warmahordes becomes a very niche game very quickly. This may be fine for some, but PP looks to believe that the vast majority of players prefer b&m by a large enough margin to justify this move. This is a case of them trying to protect people from a tragedy of the commons; if one player buys online to play at a flgs there's no problem, when a huge margin of players do those stores scale back or cease support, cutting those players out. People may disagree that this is the best way to manage the issue or on the degree of the problem but when making the (not all that unreasonable) assumptions I have above, the logic is sound.
Personally I've come to the conclusion that letting discounters discount is fine, because then stores will innovate and/or players will learn after eating the consequences of their own actions, and it'll all be better off in the long run. But then I honestly think that when it comes to tragedy of the commons, the best solution is just to tell people the result their collective actions will achieve and let them decide for themselves.
Because that +1 isn't actually going to the B&M stores, ergo it isn't really a subsidy as the money goes to the OLGS instead which...seems mildly counter-productive but I guess they feel that without discounts nobody would ever opt to "delivered to my door without fuss"?
Okay I see what is being said now. So it's not a subsidy but an extra amount you have to pay so the online store can have even better margins that they can use to reduce shipping charges so the end cost to the customer is the same as the previous discount.
So subsidy is the wrong word, but an extra fee to artificially prop up one business model over another would be more accurate.
Yep, to prop up the OLGS business model.
People---and probably the majority---will still buy the cheaper OLGS available stuff.
This bump in OLGS prices will still likely be much cheaper than a majority of b&m stores could sell for.
Add in free shipping over a threshold and no sales tax for many/most OLGSs and they're still way ahead.
The mom and pop chestnut is just that. While the big companies would certainly love to have free demos and what-not at b&m's only the ones that provide exclusive event items and support for free or low cost are putting their money where their mouths are.
Also, it is funny that by throwing one faction against the other, the companies diffuse anger away from themselves. Suddenly, it's those blasted FLGS guys. I don't have a store and/or I don't want to pay MSRP even if I have a local store because those guys haven't 'evolved'. Meanwhile staunch FLGS supporters harp on people not 'paying where they play' and even sometimes defend crap LGSs. Both sides have valid points but we get tied up pissing on about the other gamers and the company keeps pulling in the cash.
Joey will still take a 25% or 20% discount with no sales tax and free shipping over x dollars rather than spend full MSRP + tax at the FLGS for the most part.
Yep. For every well run and organized place I've seen, with good lighting and decent space to play, there's at least one which resembles that cupboard/closet/garage/shed you've been meaning to clear out since 1998 - that may or may not include GWs.
Probably the whole small country/space is expensive thing us tiny island nations contend with. Retai space in decent locations can be expensive (recent years, not so much, but I'm sure it's headed back that way) rates are expensive once you're outside of your initial startup period (where there are concessions) etc etc.
As far as I can tell right now, starting a FLGS in the UK (and I mean taking a proper run at it, not just finding a low cost unit and stocking some Magic cards) would probably take an investment of capital that would take too many years to pay off for most people.
Several terms pop up in my retailer discussion groups, one is "buy yourself a job". Refers to either the purchase of a store that the new owner will work at, or the investment money to build a store you will work at. If the store only produces a profit that pays you your salary, they you "bought yourself a job". Which is fine, if that's what you want to do with your life. Bad if you opened the store and need it to you pay you back it's cost plus a salary.
I think the best stores are built by the people that want to own a game store, and want to have a good one. Good is a bit subjective, and doesn't mean profitable. Most people that start a store want to see people in playing games, having some fun, get to play themselves, and carry a lot of great games. Doesn't always make you the most money.
Some of those crappy little stores make more money. They only sell the top products like magic, and everything is geared towards profit. Customer service, organized play, play space etc are only there as a way of making more money. They aren't going to pay rent on space for you to play miniature games on tables. But they'll pay back the meager investment of some boxes, singles, chairs and tables pretty quick. With the way things are going, this is the type of store most communities are going to get.
This may not be the type of store that PP thinks promotes their games. I expect they have some decent data from their pressganger program. I'd be curious to see what their numbers are the conclusions they drew from them.
We do have something in the UK called industrial estates, not sure whether there's a US equivalent or what they may be commonly referred to as.
Contrary to the name, often nothing more industrial than a tyre shop or perhaps the occasional small engineering firm tends to occur, but what they do tend to be is a source of units that have a much lower cost/sq/ft than traditional retail space, with lower overhead, and most of the successful places I'm aware of tend to be some variation on this model, or the aforementioned broom cupboard, which, I totally agree, is probably the way forward in terms of commercial viability. I'd just love a proper, thriving community hub, but, especially in non-urban UK, the economics don't stack.
Here n St. Louis we have about 10 LGS and Miniaturemarket within a half hour drive of my house. Miniaturemarket has their brick and mortar store 2 miles from me and they do events in store mainly on the weekend. Local stores do no discount and still thrive here. The one I favor has an online presence as well, but have tables for card, board and miniature games every night. They are also the local magic the gathering tournament scene. They carry all privateer press stuff and travel to the big shows like adepticon and Gencon. They are located in the same spot miniaturemarket was 8 or so years ago and have done great, they even have a boardgame library that you can join the club and go pull any one of the store copies off the shelf and play at the table. It is very possible to carry everything and still compete against the big bad online retailers, even when they offer 30% and are as close to pick the stuff up from as the brick and mortar store.
Azreal13 wrote: We do have something in the UK called industrial estates, not sure whether there's a US equivalent or what they may be commonly referred to as.
Contrary to the name, often nothing more industrial than a tyre shop or perhaps the occasional small engineering firm tends to occur, but what they do tend to be is a source of units that have a much lower cost/sq/ft than traditional retail space, with lower overhead, and most of the successful places I'm aware of tend to be some variation on this model, or the aforementioned broom cupboard, which, I totally agree, is probably the way forward in terms of commercial viability. I'd just love a proper, thriving community hub, but, especially in non-urban UK, the economics don't stack.
Over here they call them industrial parks, but in a similar fashion, they are more often warehouses, offices, and some retail in them, rather than true industrial. I know of a few shops that have tried them with various success.
I looked into them when i had to move both stores a couple years back. Sadly, all of them were way off the beaten track, down back roads or other places hard to even find. It was a huge gamble that those would work. Huge amount of space, but monetizing that space could be tough. One store i know of had to close, partly due to parking trouble. You'd think tons of spaces. But one of the other tenants was some type of trade school with a large amount of people needing parking. Good retail space has a number of variables, and lack of parking can be one that hurts you badly.
Theophony wrote: Here n St. Louis we have about 10 LGS and Miniaturemarket within a half hour drive of my house. Miniaturemarket has their brick and mortar store 2 miles from me and they do events in store mainly on the weekend. Local stores do no discount and still thrive here. The one I favor has an online presence as well, but have tables for card, board and miniature games every night. They are also the local magic the gathering tournament scene. They carry all privateer press stuff and travel to the big shows like adepticon and Gencon. They are located in the same spot miniaturemarket was 8 or so years ago and have done great, they even have a boardgame library that you can join the club and go pull any one of the store copies off the shelf and play at the table. It is very possible to carry everything and still compete against the big bad online retailers, even when they offer 30% and are as close to pick the stuff up from as the brick and mortar store.
Well, Game Nite doesn't go to Adepticon and Gencon (unless they changed something this year anyway), but they do hit all the local cons like Geekway, DieCon, and Archon, as well as every Wizard World con that isn't on the other side of the Rockies. Otherwise, can't agree with you more.
Theophony wrote: Here n St. Louis we have about 10 LGS and Miniaturemarket within a half hour drive of my house. Miniaturemarket has their brick and mortar store 2 miles from me and they do events in store mainly on the weekend. Local stores do no discount and still thrive here. The one I favor has an online presence as well, but have tables for card, board and miniature games every night. They are also the local magic the gathering tournament scene. They carry all privateer press stuff and travel to the big shows like adepticon and Gencon. They are located in the same spot miniaturemarket was 8 or so years ago and have done great, they even have a boardgame library that you can join the club and go pull any one of the store copies off the shelf and play at the table. It is very possible to carry everything and still compete against the big bad online retailers, even when they offer 30% and are as close to pick the stuff up from as the brick and mortar store.
Well, Game Nite doesn't go to Adepticon and Gencon (unless they changed something this year anyway), but they do hit all the local cons like Geekway, DieCon, and Archon, as well as every Wizard World con that isn't on the other side of the Rockies. Otherwise, can't agree with you more.
I stand corrected then, I thought I was there when they were packing for Gencon this year, maybe it was another con that was the same time or close to it.
I wonder what happened behind the scenes to facilitate this.
Has enough time passed for MM to see a noticeable drop in sales? That is the only factor that I can imagine would motivate such a 180 shift. Maybe MM's sales in PP products tanked after they reduced their discount?
Awesome news, though, regardless of the reasoning.
Interesting! Thread title / OP updated, thanks for the heads up doug
Was the discount more or less than 25% previously? I know they ran specials where it was higher... maybe this is a compromise, as the language makes it sound like that will be their constant rate (perhaps without the crazy "clearance" rates we sometimes saw previously?).
Either way, I'm happy about this - local stores should be able to compete with a 25% off online retailer. Stores do the exact same with GW all the time. Should be good for consumers and not hurt locals too bad, impulse buys still overcome most folks' desire to save 25%
RiTides wrote: Interesting! Thread title / OP updated, thanks for the heads up doug
Was the discount more or less than 25% previously? I know they ran specials where it was higher... maybe this is a compromise, as the language makes it sound like that will be their constant rate (perhaps without the crazy "clearance" rates we sometimes saw previously?).
Either way, I'm happy about this - local stores should be able to compete with a 25% off online retailer. Stores do the exact same with GW all the time. Should be good for consumers and not hurt locals too bad, impulse buys still overcome most folks' desire to save 25%
25% was what it was previously. Though long ago it used to be 30%
MM drops discount to 10% off, no sales.
PP goes "gulp"
or -
Mini market says "we will clearance it all and not carry mk3".
PP goes "double gulp"
or both -
"super big gulp" aka 128 ounces of purchasing power
or
MM doesn't drop discount initially to get a lot of positive gaming publicity.
MM drops to 10% after a while to keep PP happy in the meantime.
MM meanwhile consults its lawyers
MM returns to 25% discount with a fanfare, double publicity.
So far MM have had three batches of publicity once when they 'alone' amongst major online stockists didn't reduce discounts, once when they did which was neutral publicity and once when they reversed the decision. They made themselves out to be supporting the gaming community while not entirely being confrontational with PP. It also kept an unpopular decision PP made and most sellers quietly complied with stay fresh in the minds of gamers. MM's rivals who didnt argue with a price rise, which directly increases their own profits look greedy, and keeping the reduced markup from trade to customer prices low it has made it unfeasible for PP to raise trade prices on the quiet.
Eldarain, since the vast majority of models aren't changing, there isn't really "MKII stuff". Unless they somehow haggled that the policy could only apply to new SKUs released going forward, but that wouldn't make sense with the banner image they've posted.
So, hopefully it's just 25% off from now on, really curious how they were able to win that battle but it had to be important for them - I thought they ended up dropping GW after similar shenanigans, but PP has to be a pretty important revenue source for them. Glad they could work it out!
The problem there is, if a distributor picks up MM, and PP has to take action against the distributor, that also affects all the other PP customers that distributor has. Those stores will not be happy with that distributor hurting their business just so they can sell to MM. And if that distributor does little to no PP business, then instead of slow deliveries it might be no deliveries at all. PP has a contract with distributors on how their product is distributed. Distributors are used to this. AsmodeeNA just put one in place, Battlefront has one, Mayfair games, a few more.
mikhaila wrote: The problem there is, if a distributor picks up MM, and PP has to take action against the distributor, that also affects all the other PP customers that distributor has. Those stores will not be happy with that distributor hurting their business just so they can sell to MM. And if that distributor does little to no PP business, then instead of slow deliveries it might be no deliveries at all. PP has a contract with distributors on how their product is distributed. Distributors are used to this. AsmodeeNA just put one in place, Battlefront has one, Mayfair games, a few more.
I'm pretty sure Miniature Market's sales dwarf every other LGS. I'd be willing to bet money MM threatened to drop PP and not sell mk3, and the loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars let PP make an "exception" for MM.
Maybe MM simply bit the bullet and became a distributer? They've got the warehouse space to make it work and they could then go to PP without any middlemen (improves their margins and removes outside influence at the same time).
mikhaila wrote: The problem there is, if a distributor picks up MM, and PP has to take action against the distributor, that also affects all the other PP customers that distributor has. Those stores will not be happy with that distributor hurting their business just so they can sell to MM. And if that distributor does little to no PP business, then instead of slow deliveries it might be no deliveries at all. PP has a contract with distributors on how their product is distributed. Distributors are used to this. AsmodeeNA just put one in place, Battlefront has one, Mayfair games, a few more.
I'm pretty sure Miniature Market's sales dwarf every other LGS. I'd be willing to bet money MM threatened to drop PP and not sell mk3, and the loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars let PP make an "exception" for MM.
I would bet this is probably closest to truth. All MM had to do was to point out to PP their sales numbers for PP items the month before dropping the discount, then point to the numbers for the month after. They're savvy that I would think they lowered the discount to 10% to gather leverage.
I'm pretty sure Miniature Market's sales dwarf every other LGS. I'd be willing to bet money MM threatened to drop PP and not sell mk3, and the loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars let PP make an "exception" for MM.
See - I was thinking the reason MM folded in the first place was that PP said "lower your discount or no MKIII stuff for you."
Really though, I'm thinking Orlanth's version is probably the closest to correct - lowering to 10% (I think it was actually 12-13%) was a "cover our ass while we consult with these guys in suits" sort of move. Or maybe they just had to poke around to find a new distributor who was happy to take the delay in getting new stuff shipped to them in exchange for having massive sales numbers?
Either way - good news! And I'm much more excited for MKIII now too. As the huge price increase had really put a damper on things.
Hmmm...when I look at the MKIII pre-orders on MM, I see this blurb added in their usual pre-order lingo
"We cannot guarantee we will receive new Privateer Press items on their release date. We will do our best to acquire any new items and ship them as close to the release date as possible."
Interesting...sounds like maybe MM are fine with getting delayed product.
BigDaddio wrote: Hmmm...when I look at the MKIII pre-orders on MM, I see this blurb added in their usual pre-order lingo
"We cannot guarantee we will receive new Privateer Press items on their release date. We will do our best to acquire any new items and ship them as close to the release date as possible."
Interesting...sounds like maybe MM are fine with getting delayed product.
How long before the arbitrary delay imposed by PP just becomes the standard release date for most buyers? I'd bet a fair number of players will happily wait a few weeks for items they can save 25% on.
BigDaddio wrote: Hmmm...when I look at the MKIII pre-orders on MM, I see this blurb added in their usual pre-order lingo
"We cannot guarantee we will receive new Privateer Press items on their release date. We will do our best to acquire any new items and ship them as close to the release date as possible."
Interesting...sounds like maybe MM are fine with getting delayed product.
Or are looking at plopping down a lawsuit if PP tries to pull a GW.
Manufacturers have gotten in trouble in the past for pulling those kind of shenanigans.
And PP does not have the bottomless wallet that GW has to try to crush their... allies....
Not that it matters much to me - I have not bought any Privateer Press material in years. Not because of a boycott or anything like that - their models just have not interested me in proportion to their price. (Yes, I would rather spend my money on halflings riding giant chickens than buy a new warjack.... )
The Auld Grump - in my defense, those chicken riders are pretty danged awesome.
BigDaddio wrote: Hmmm...when I look at the MKIII pre-orders on MM, I see this blurb added in their usual pre-order lingo
"We cannot guarantee we will receive new Privateer Press items on their release date. We will do our best to acquire any new items and ship them as close to the release date as possible."
Interesting...sounds like maybe MM are fine with getting delayed product.
How long before the arbitrary delay imposed by PP just becomes the standard release date for most buyers? I'd bet a fair number of players will happily wait a few weeks for items they can save 25% on.
That is really good news. I was pretty much ready to never again buy anything from PP that wasn't amazing, but MM discounting makes it a lot more likely I will support PP in the future beyond being a non-paying player.
Wehrkind wrote: That is really good news. I was pretty much ready to never again buy anything from PP that wasn't amazing, but MM discounting makes it a lot more likely I will support PP in the future beyond being a non-paying player.
The really funny thing about this is that Gamenerdz, eBay sellers, and Amazon sellers kept on selling at the 25 to 30 percent off rate throughout this whole thing. It really drives home the stupidest part of this whole price fixing thing: it doesn't even work. There's too many retailers trying to find ways to undercut each other. It's like how GW's online policy is also a joke when I can get Imperial Knight Renegade from online stores for ~22% off.
Probably why MM decided to just go back. These rules only work if everyone follows it. If they don't, then you're just crippling your business for no reason
The other side of it is they probably looked at what their sales would be like without the deep discount vs what sales would look like with delayed releases and realized that when weighing those options, volume wins over frequency.
Well, PP probably sells to all distributors at the same price. The prices those distributors charge different retailers is less certain.
But yeah, the primary reason why online sales prices tend to be cheaper is that they tend to have a high sales volume to overhead cost ratio, so they need to charge less markup per item to be able to make a profit after those overhead costs.
TheAuldGrump wrote:Yes, I would rather spend my money on halflings riding giant chickens than buy a new warjack....
With age comes wisdom.
Lots of Mk3 excitement has been brewing locally. I've decided that I am going to start playing again, but I'll be reducing my factions down to 1 WM and 1 H. I don't (and won't) play often enough to justify having the factions I currently have (Cryx, Cygnar, Menoth, Khador, Circle, Skorne).
Now that I think about it.. PP trying to set prices in a free market economy is probably illegal. Gas companies that try to set defacto prices have gotten into legal troubles in the past. We had to listen to a case study in one of my economics classes for my BS.
MLaw wrote: Now that I think about it.. PP trying to set prices in a free market economy is probably illegal. Gas companies that try to set defacto prices have gotten into legal troubles in the past. We had to listen to a case study in one of my economics classes for my BS.
Only if you're a monopoly. Utilities engaging in price fixing is illegal because there's not an alternative for customers. Privateer does not hold a monopoly on its industry.
Laughing Man wrote: Only if you're a monopoly. Utilities engaging in price fixing is illegal because there's not an alternative for customers. Privateer does not hold a monopoly on its industry.
Hence the fights to get internet connections considered utilities.
Laughing Man wrote: Only if you're a monopoly. Utilities engaging in price fixing is illegal because there's not an alternative for customers. Privateer does not hold a monopoly on its industry.
Hence the fights to get internet connections considered utilities.
Less that, as there's some competition between ISPs - Even if they're labeled utilities, there's no monopoly, so there's little price gouging (although you could make an argument for collusion). The main reason to declare them utilities is for reasons of net neutrality: If they're utilities, it's illegal to prioritize some customers over others - say, a service that guarantees you'll never experience a brown-out unless the rest of the city goes out first. Similarly, you wouldn't be able to create an internet fast lane or slow traffic to websites belonging to your rivals.
This has been passed around as a reason why MM is now selling at 25% off. Supposedly someone emailed MM to ask for clarification on the 25% discount and got this reply
"Rain, we did change our pricing to only 10% off but Privateer Press still refused to remove our name from the blacklist. As a result we went back to our 25% off. Because their policy is very vague they seem to be randomly choosing people to put on the list. The problem is not with us but rather how Privateer Press is choosing to enforce it. My distributors are very upset over how this has been handled and they vow to keep selling to us anyway."
Could also be Hanlon's Razor. An article I read criticized how PP does not define "services" nor how they could monitor retailers: "Privateer Press recognizes that the health and success of brick-and-mortar retailers is crucial to give players access to the worldwide community of players who enjoy the friendly competition, hobby experiences, and casual and competitive organized play for which Privateer Press is a recognized industry leader. Upon enacting this policy, Privateer will monitor the market for free riders and provide a confidential list to its distributors regarding which retailers are offering Privateer Press products at an unsustainable deep discount while offering little or nothing in the way of services." So that explains the "vague" and "random" parts.
Another thought, though, is that since it's actually the distributors who are penalized ("Distributors who sell product to retailers that have been added to the free rider list will have their shipments, including new releases, delayed.") a distributor now has to choose between OLGS business, or delays in receiving product. Those distributors who choose not to have a delay are pretty much giving up their PP business from *all* the OLGS's to a competing distributor -- which risks leading to giving up *all* their OLGS business to this competition as well. So one possibility is that MM's distributor chooses to side with the OLGS's, resulting in delays but perhaps more OLGS business, while another distributor sides with the FLGS's and receives non-delayed PP product. You'll also note that, once a distributor decides to sell to one "free rider", he might as well sell to *all* the "free riders". So, if that first "free rider" abides by PP and goes off the list, the distributor will *still* be penalized with delays since he now also sells to other "free riders". http://privateerpress.com/press-releases/privateer-press-supports-brick-and-mortar-retailers-with-new-free-rider-policy
Say -- where'd that 10% discount come from, anyway? If product is delayed, that doesn't sound like, to me, that the product will be discounted less than had the distributor agreed not to sell to "free riders"? TIA!
Probably because stores can buy directly from PP. they don't actually NEED to go through a distributor. There are other gaming companies that allow you to do this as well. MM probably skipped the distributor because they get better prices from PP directly. I don't remember the price exactly, but it was something like 55% of retail if they buy from a distributor, and I THINK it's 40% of retail to buy from PP. Not positive of the exact price. But yeah, saves them a healthy chunk when buying directly from PP.
MM buys from a distributor doesn't it. Alliance iirc.
Also, I've had LGS here buy directly from PP. The service was...let's say less than fantastic for Asian stores. And the minimum order qty needed was...more than they were willing to get
I was slightly excited for the release for mkiii and seeing about getting into Skorne more.....and now since PP seems to think it was a good fething idea to go down the path of GW and insult their customer base. might as well get rid of my Skorne and other Mercs I have.
Those WGF Germans and X-Wing releases are looking good now...especially some things for my Brotherhood army for Kings of War.
FFG has the same policies as PP in regard to blacklisting/blocking online stores (except the big names in the game like Amazon) from offering large discounts
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: FFG has the same policies as PP in regard to blacklisting/blocking online stores (except the big names in the game like Amazon) from offering large discounts
so I guess it's the WFG Germans then.......
FFG has the same policies in that regard? I did not know, since I have been out for a while (save for just keeping up with my Netrunner data packs). Might make me slightly worry, but then again I tend to play X-wing and Netrunner since the price-point is cheap, easier to expand, and the main company seems to be butting heads with their customer base right now.
Sinful Hero wrote: Interesting if true. PP would really have an axe to grind if they refused to remove them from the list no matter their discount.
If it's true - I certainly don't mind. Would much rather have affordable products even if it means I'd have to wait 2-3 months for new releases (which - I am so behind on everything anyway - is not really a penalty at all).
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: FFG has the same policies as PP in regard to blacklisting/blocking online stores (except the big names in the game like Amazon) from offering large discounts
so I guess it's the WFG Germans then.......
FFG has the same policies in that regard? I did not know, since I have been out for a while (save for just keeping up with my Netrunner data packs). Might make me slightly worry, but then again I tend to play X-wing and Netrunner since the price-point is cheap, easier to expand, and the main company seems to be butting heads with their customer base right now.
No Fantasy Flight went exclusive with distributors that agreed to their terms first, then made their announcment. And FFG didn't create a black list. They created two catagories that they then had stores choose which catagory they wanted to be included in: Brick or Online. Brick catagory store have a higher discount.
Fantasy Flight was open with how their system worked and not vague.
PP just said they were putting discounters on a blacklist. then they said it was to protect brick and morter stores, but they didn't say they wouldn't put brick and morter store, just that they were blacklisting discounters. Nor did they say what size discount put you on the list. It could be that any discount puts you on the list, and anybody the catch discounting goes on the list.
This is illegal. Nintendo got busted for these practices 15 years ago, when they would delay shipments to retailers that sold their products at a discount. They even did this with retail chains and department stores.
If PP would define what discounts are acceptable, then woundn't seem as vindictive. But I suspect they don't want any discounts from anybody, I doen't matter if it is an online retailer or a brick and morter.
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timetowaste85 wrote: Probably because stores can buy directly from PP. they don't actually NEED to go through a distributor. There are other gaming companies that allow you to do this as well. MM probably skipped the distributor because they get better prices from PP directly. I don't remember the price exactly, but it was something like 55% of retail if they buy from a distributor, and I THINK it's 40% of retail to buy from PP. Not positive of the exact price. But yeah, saves them a healthy chunk when buying directly from PP.
PP doen't like to sell directly to anybody but distributors, whenever my local store orders directly from them, they have to prove they can not get it from a distributor. Our PG had to sign off on it and acknowledge the store couldn't ge the items
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: FFG has the same policies as PP in regard to blacklisting/blocking online stores (except the big names in the game like Amazon) from offering large discounts
so I guess it's the WFG Germans then.......
FFG has the same policies in that regard? I did not know, since I have been out for a while (save for just keeping up with my Netrunner data packs). Might make me slightly worry, but then again I tend to play X-wing and Netrunner since the price-point is cheap, easier to expand, and the main company seems to be butting heads with their customer base right now.
No Fantasy Flight went exclusive with distributors that agreed to their terms first, then made their announcment. And FFG didn't create a black list. They created two catagories that they then had stores choose which catagory they wanted to be included in: Brick or Online. Brick catagory store have a higher discount.
Fantasy Flight was open with how their system worked and not vague.
PP just said they were putting discounters on a blacklist. then they said it was to protect brick and morter stores, but they didn't say they wouldn't put brick and morter store, just that they were blacklisting discounters. Nor did they say what size discount put you on the list. It could be that any discount puts you on the list, and anybody the catch discounting goes on the list.
This is illegal. Nintendo got busted for these practices 15 years ago, when they would delay shipments to retailers that sold their products at a discount. They even did this with retail chains and department stores.
If PP would define what discounts are acceptable, then woundn't seem as vindictive. But I suspect they don't want any discounts from anybody, I doen't matter if it is an online retailer or a brick and morter.
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timetowaste85 wrote: Probably because stores can buy directly from PP. they don't actually NEED to go through a distributor. There are other gaming companies that allow you to do this as well. MM probably skipped the distributor because they get better prices from PP directly. I don't remember the price exactly, but it was something like 55% of retail if they buy from a distributor, and I THINK it's 40% of retail to buy from PP. Not positive of the exact price. But yeah, saves them a healthy chunk when buying directly from PP.
PP doen't like to sell directly to anybody but distributors, whenever my local store orders directly from them, they have to prove they can not get it from a distributor. Our PG had to sign off on it and acknowledge the store couldn't ge the items
Thank you! Price fixing is the term I was searching for.. college is a few more years back than I remember ;P
Yeah when PP first made the announcment, I was like WHY?
I normally support PP but this just sounded too much like the stuff Nintendo used to pull.
I remember hearing about the price fixing as a kid, they would send operatives to stores to catch low prices that weren't even advertised. Nowadays many companies will make deals with retailers that they won't advertise lower prices, but Nintendo would come down and any low price.
Ah, that explains it, I was only looking back around 2000. 1991 is 25 years ago now.
However, the case doesn't really apply here. At the time, Nintendo DID have a monopoly (or the FTC was willing to argue it did), controlling 80% of the market. Privateer has no such monopoly, and Leegin v. PSKS (2007) ruled price maintenance a legal practice anyway.
Ah, that explains it, I was only looking back around 2000. 1991 is 25 years ago now.
However, the case doesn't really apply here. At the time, Nintendo DID have a monopoly (or the FTC was willing to argue it did), controlling 80% of the market. Privateer has no such monopoly, and Leegin v. PSKS (2007) ruled price maintenance a legal practice anyway.
The monopoly thing is pretty arguable. In the 90s there were the Sega systems, Turbografix 16, Neo Geo, Atari..kinda.. That said, the price maintenance case is after the years I had college level economics so I'm ill-informed as to the specifics of what qualifies as price maintenance. Perhaps that's the same thing that allows Apple to dictate their costs.
Does anyone know if MM is actually taking this to court or if any sorts of talks have even been broached? I know the legal aspect isn't the most glamorous but these last few years it seems to have been just as important as the fun side.. same for logistics strangely.
From the cash flow end, what does PP delaying shipments do for them? It lengthens the time between when the order is placed and when PP gets paid for it. A big distributor places an order. PP delays shipping two weeks. The big distributor will pay 30 days after they recieve it. If PP says "you need to pay your invoice faster" they'll just say "Ship faster. Our accounts payable policy is based on X days after receiving the goods."
Some businesses try to make the customer (even if its a reseller) pay up front, but when you start talking $10k+ orders between a manufacturer and distributor, usually it goes with the normal business to business accounts payable policies of purchase orders, invoicing and receiving and then payment. So PP delaying shipments to distributors just lengthens the time between the placing of orders and the payment for those goods.
MattofWar wrote: From the cash flow end, what does PP delaying shipments do for them? It lengthens the time between when the order is placed and when PP gets paid for it. A big distributor places an order. PP delays shipping two weeks. The big distributor will pay 30 days after they recieve it. If PP says "you need to pay your invoice faster" they'll just say "Ship faster. Our accounts payable policy is based on X days after receiving the goods."
Some businesses try to make the customer (even if its a reseller) pay up front, but when you start talking $10k+ orders between a manufacturer and distributor, usually it goes with the normal business to business accounts payable policies of purchase orders, invoicing and receiving and then payment. So PP delaying shipments to distributors just lengthens the time between the placing of orders and the payment for those goods.
Thus why the argument that Privateer's doing this to get more money out of folks falls flat. Without an online store of their own, Privateer loses money on the face of it. Like Asmodee, Hawk, and Battlefront, they're gambling that funneling more business to local game stores will generate enough additional business to compensate.
Laughing Man wrote: Thus why the argument that Privateer's doing this to get more money out of folks falls flat. Without an online store of their own, Privateer loses money on the face of it. Like Asmodee, Hawk, and Battlefront, they're gambling that funneling more business to local game stores will generate enough additional business to compensate.
Nah, they're following GW's footsteps in realizing that the FLGS is a dying business model and they want to funnel sales to Direct. I would not be surprised if they started making more SKUs direct-only as well.
Interestingly enough this poll for 40k has 60% of people polled claiming to play at home and only 41% playing in non-GW stores. Don't know if that's indicative of the market as a whole or that this poll was badly done or if it's just 40k that is that way but it's still interesting. Something tells me though that it probably is indicative of the market as a whole. Also note half of all players learned about the game from a friend, I'd bet that increases based on the obscurity of the game.
DrNo172000 wrote: Interestingly enough this poll for 40k has 60% of people polled claiming to play at home and only 41% playing in non-GW stores. Don't know if that's indicative of the market as a whole or that this poll was badly done or if it's just 40k that is that way but it's still interesting. Something tells me though that it probably is indicative of the market as a whole. Also note half of all players learned about the game from a friend, I'd bet that increases based on the obscurity of the game.
It could also be that GW has been very insular for some time and has not been running an advertising campaign (or at least in the way that is successful). Other thing that does turn people away is the asking price to get into the game. I say do another essay that focus on another company or so, to get a comparison to the Warmachine/Hordes player and compare the two. Keep the same or similar wording but change the topic to PP products instead.
DrNo172000 wrote: Interestingly enough this poll for 40k has 60% of people polled claiming to play at home and only 41% playing in non-GW stores. Don't know if that's indicative of the market as a whole or that this poll was badly done or if it's just 40k that is that way but it's still interesting. Something tells me though that it probably is indicative of the market as a whole. Also note half of all players learned about the game from a friend, I'd bet that increases based on the obscurity of the game.
That's a strange poll. The formatting and the totals running past 100% makes it feel like something is missing or data is being compared across subsets or something. Like the 60% playing at home 41% non-GW stores.. The 41 seems like it is from the remainder of non-home gamers. It's hard to say for sure though.
The rest is all common sense. People with a stable income and interest in the game are a steady source of revenue. Youngsters who don't have steady income and split what they do get between video games and other things seem like a more periodic purchase. Is Privateer Press targetting younger players the way GW seems to be or was that just anecdotal?
My sense is that the majority of miniature game purchases are by people who do not play at stores. I think that poll is likely pretty accurate and the numbers would have been the same even when GW was doing marking with Di Agostini for LOTR. The majority of the customers of any miniature game might buy at a local store or online, but they tend not to come to any gaming event at those stores with any regularity (if at all). Even during the LOTR boom, a GW store might have 20-30 people all playing bring-and-battle multiplayer games all Saturday, but I bet 100 people bought and didn't come to those events (if not more).
It's not hard data, but pretty much every store manager or owner I've talked to has their regular customers who show up to every gaming event contributing the minority of the purchases. This was the case to such a degree in the US that for a while GW was advising store owners and their employees to encourage those regulars to not show up as much. First they shunted them into "Veteran's night" and then cancelled the Veteran's night.
If the only drawback is not getting stuff the minute it's out (o noes!) then I'll order from MM for most of my stuff, because I almost never buy things the minute they are our or for pre-release, and if I do they are usually single purchases that I'll buy local for the "I want it now" factor anyways.
MattofWar wrote: From the cash flow end, what does PP delaying shipments do for them? It lengthens the time between when the order is placed and when PP gets paid for it. A big distributor places an order. PP delays shipping two weeks. The big distributor will pay 30 days after they recieve it. If PP says "you need to pay your invoice faster" they'll just say "Ship faster. Our accounts payable policy is based on X days after receiving the goods."
Some businesses try to make the customer (even if its a reseller) pay up front, but when you start talking $10k+ orders between a manufacturer and distributor, usually it goes with the normal business to business accounts payable policies of purchase orders, invoicing and receiving and then payment. So PP delaying shipments to distributors just lengthens the time between the placing of orders and the payment for those goods.
All of that is true. At the same time, as long as your liquidity is fine you might not give a rodent's hindquarters for a couple weeks delay. Markets being as they are that money will just be sitting in an interest-free account for a few weeks more out less. It's customary to care a great deal but right now, it often doesn't make much sense to do so
WayneTheGame wrote: If the only drawback is not getting stuff the minute it's out (o noes!) then I'll order from MM for most of my stuff, because I almost never buy things the minute they are our or for pre-release, and if I do they are usually single purchases that I'll buy local for the "I want it now" factor anyways.
The only time this might have a negative effect is if for some reason something is insanely popular and sells out pretty fast. There might not be enough stock to supply the later orders until waaay later. It's a crappy scenario and probably unlikely with miniatures but I've seen it with comic books enough times. Sometimes it's Diamond sometimes it's the publisher.
I don't follow the "they're doing this to drive sales to direct" comments. Privateer Press doesn't sell models directly for the most part, only through distributors. Am I missing something? Genuine question...
RiTides wrote: I don't follow the "they're doing this to drive sales to direct" comments. Privateer Press doesn't sell models directly for the most part, only through distributors. Am I missing something? Genuine question...
I believe the idea is that they will eventually move to selling directly.
RiTides wrote: I don't follow the "they're doing this to drive sales to direct" comments. Privateer Press doesn't sell models directly for the most part, only through distributors. Am I missing something? Genuine question...
How much of GW's range was direct-only when they first started screwing with their trade terms to the detriment of indies?
DrNo172000 wrote: Interestingly enough this poll for 40k has 60% of people polled claiming to play at home and only 41% playing in non-GW stores. Don't know if that's indicative of the market as a whole or that this poll was badly done or if it's just 40k that is that way but it's still interesting. Something tells me though that it probably is indicative of the market as a whole. Also note half of all players learned about the game from a friend, I'd bet that increases based on the obscurity of the game.
That's a strange poll. The formatting and the totals running past 100% makes it feel like something is missing or data is being compared across subsets or something. Like the 60% playing at home 41% non-GW stores.. The 41 seems like it is from the remainder of non-home gamers. It's hard to say for sure though.
The total is more than 100% because some people play at home AND play at a hobby shop.
RiTides wrote: I don't follow the "they're doing this to drive sales to direct" comments. Privateer Press doesn't sell models directly for the most part, only through distributors. Am I missing something? Genuine question...
I believe the idea is that they will eventually move to selling directly.
That is an assertion from commenters, not a statment from PP. Their policy with their webstore is to sell a minimum on their own store (mostly board games, bits, starters, and OOP metal models) and sell the bulk of their products to distributors. They don't even like selling directly to stores if they can help it, they want everything through distributors.
RiTides wrote: I don't follow the "they're doing this to drive sales to direct" comments. Privateer Press doesn't sell models directly for the most part, only through distributors. Am I missing something? Genuine question...
I believe the idea is that they will eventually move to selling directly.
Which is silly, as they've been doing the OPPOSITE of that recently, moving more and more of their online exclusives to retailers. Pretty much the only thing left exclusive to their store are parts and the occasional convention model.
RiTides wrote: I don't follow the "they're doing this to drive sales to direct" comments. Privateer Press doesn't sell models directly for the most part, only through distributors. Am I missing something? Genuine question...
How much of GW's range was direct-only when they first started screwing with their trade terms to the detriment of indies?
Yes, but PP doesn't even sell the vast majority of their range in their online store. I.e. it's not just that they're not direct-only... they're not offered direct at all!
As others have said, signs from PP (and others like Guildball and Hawk Wargames with their new retail exclusives) make it seem like they're trending the opposite way, at least from what I can see. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some other development!
I really think this is a matter of them having sales that have stopped growing and are directly hearing from retailers and distributors that they aren't moving product except to online stores. And PP being a very conservative company assumes that it must be because the discount makes an unfair environment for the brick and mortar only stores and ignores the general trends in purchasing online over the last decade in pretty much any industry.
So they try to bully both distributors and retailers to push back the clock.
My personal opinion is that growth stopped because the game largely failed to deliver on its central premise of steam powered robots fighting it out. People in these retail stores gave the game a try but lost interest when all their introductory products (jacks, medium base infantry) suck compared to a good contingent of small based infantry and solos. I know so many people who have a collection of jacks on their shelves at home but no longer play (or buy).
Maybe MK3 will turn this around. Then if the cash starts rolling in again, PP will quietly forget this project of trying to bully distributors and retailers. The problem is though, that distributors can be gate keepers and if PP intentionally delays shipments to large distributors, the distributors will find something else to encourage their customers (the stores) to buy. And the stores can do the same with the end customer. So it's possible that the timing of this might actually impact the launch of MK3 negatively. After all, if Miniature Market reduced their discount as they were asked and Privateer still kept them on "the list" and then delays shipments to major distributors like Alliance, then all sorts of brick and mortar only retailers are going to be punished by having their shipments also delayed. So maybe the Warmachine section of the shelves should be shrunk a bit and more board games brought in. PP products can go special order only.
Just a few bits. And of course please take what I say with a grain of salt. I don't claim to have information right in front of me. But i do talk to 6 major distributors in the US.
-PP does not sell to stores directly in the US. Depending on the country, they may ship directly to stores. I think some canadian stores get direct orders from them. But in general they sell through distributors.
-PP gets a lot of feedback from their Pressgangers. Pressgangers are mainly running events and demo games in stores. So I'd say PP has a pretty good idea of just how much having stores carry their product is beneficial to them, and how much stores are being affected by heavy discounting.
-There will be a lot more conversation passing back and forth between PP and distributors over the next few weeks. This will change their buying agreements with PP. Selling to stores on the freeriders list will have some pretty severe consequences for that distributor.
-No distributor can handle those consequences. If they start shipping late, or not getting some product at all, all their other accounts will put a huge amount of pressure on them. Stores won't just shift their PP orders to another distributor, many would shift the bulk of their sales. The bad feelings associated with giving bad service to other retailers because a distributor sold to stores on a ban list would be huge. And very unprofitable.
-(a guess) Several manufacturers have tightened up which distributors they deal with. Less distributors makes it much easier to police a policy like this. Some distributors are already known in the industry to be a bit shady in how they do business. It would not surprise me to see PP cut down the list of distributors they do business with.
-The launch kits for MK3 are in very tight supply, and distributors are getting allocated. I'm not sure how this will affect availability of individual starter kits to stores. We'll know more closer to launch date. They are damn good kits, i ordered the largest as soon as i got the email and made sure it was confirmed with my distributor. The quality of the kits made demand exceed supply.
We'll see how it shakes out, but their is a lot more going on behind the scenes right now, and I think PP are very serious about this new policy.
In the end, no matter how things play out, all of us will make our own decisions on how we look at the game/company and act accordingly.
For me (not that it really matters to anyone else, or PP for that matter...and that's okay) I don't like their miniatures enough to pay full retail, and in most cases not even at 10% discount. I've been eyeing the game for a couple of years now, even bought both Mk2 rulebooks a year and half ago off eBay for a good price (I think it was $25 for both). Nearly bought an "all-in-one" army box last year, as they were good deals, but didn't pull the trigger as my hobby backlog had grown so much already. My interest is keen now that there's a new edition on the horizon, as that tends to be a good time to start a game. Recently I bought the Hordes 2-player starter off eBay for $50.00, new in box, as I generally like Legion and Circle models and figured they would be good starting points. As of now I plan on buying one or more of the new starter boxes when they come out. Even at retail, these are a decent deal. But as for most other releases/kits? Not a chance I buy them for retail, no matter how much I love my FLGS. If no one online sells for a sufficient enough discount, then I will surf eBay until I find what I want or give up and move to something else.
The thing is, if this new policy is in response to feedback from people running events at retail stores, of course those people don't like online retailers: they're the competition.
I'm still unconvinced that this policy is going to accomplish anything except create frustration. The board game / tabletop gaming industry as a whole has been experiencing massive growth in recent years despite the supposed community-destroying threat of online stores.Sure. the market is different than how it used to be, but online retail is a force way bigger than this industry and its laughable to think that you can go back to how it was before online sales existed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh wow, this story is getting pretty silly: they're back to 10%!
I can only imagine a lot of heated arguments have been going on between PP, MM, and the distributors involved. Oh well. Back to eBay and Amazon for me!
Not that I know of. I just was thinking about ordering some Croak Raiders and noticed it had changed. It's too bad. I like Miniature Market, but with tax those Croak Raiders now cost about $20 more from them they do they on Amazon. That's simply too big a price gap to ignore.
Not of fan of getting strong armed by silly purchasing regulations.
Especially when it exists to "force" people to continue to support an outdated and near-obsolete business model just so they can proudly say they support local businesses. It would be like if distributors said they refused to let Wal-Mart purchase goods because they can offer better deals than the Mom-and-Pop store can. That's essentially what this ridiculousness is; PP is taking it upon themselves to defend the poor downtrodden shop owners who are being put out of business and forced to sell their children and pets into slavery to make ends meet thanks to the evil faceless online retailers that can offer fat discounts due to not having to pay rent for real space.
You know, I for one applaud any effort to support the LGS. I do 90% of my gaming through FLGS, multiple in my are and previous area where I used to live.
Just because some people don't play primarily at their FLGS doesn't mean the FLGS doesn't provide a valuable service for others.
Killionaire wrote: Just because some people don't play primarily at their FLGS doesn't mean the FLGS doesn't provide a valuable service for others.
I too play and buy at the FLGS, and completely agree with your statement.
I still feel it's wrong for people who don't have a good LGS nearby to pay for my services.
Especially when the extra money doesn't actually do that.
ced1106 wrote: Update, Miniature Market discount is now 25%:
judgedoug wrote: Miniature Market once again stands up to Privateer Press
So, I wonder if someone can change the thread title?
Original Post:
Spoiler:
From Miniature Market:
Note: In an effort to prevent us from selling their products at our current discount, Privateer Press has threatened to delay our new item shipments to our distribution partners. As a result, there is a chance that new item purchases could be delayed by 7-14 days past their release date. We have no intentions of raising our prices or ceasing to carry Privateer Press products. Let your voice be heard by contacting Privateer Press
PRIVATEER AXES OFFENDING ONLINE RETAILERS
'We Do Not Condone the Free Riders' Parasitic Business Model'
Privateer Press, makers of Warmachine and Hordes, has announced a new sales policy which it hopes will end deeply discounted online sales.
In the letter sent out to retailers, Privateer Press President Sherry Yeary explained the rationale. “Over the last eleven years… online retailers with nearly no overhead and very little meaningful contact with our audience have been undermining the stability of the market by selling product at discounts well below retail value, depending solely on the efforts of our brick and mortar partners who offer services that nurture our audience and grow the market to move their product,” she wrote. “This model of business is widely recognized by experts and the justice system as ‘free riding.’ While this can be a viable business model for many mainstream products, it is common knowledge that in our industry it’s crippling and anticompetitive.”
Privateer plans to create a list of retailers that it views as “free riders,” which it defines as “retailers …offering Privateer Press products at an unsustainable deep discount and offer[ing] very little or nothing in the way of services” and will impose sanctions on distributors that sell to those retailers. The list will be updated by adding or deleting retailers as needed. Distributors that sell to retailers on Privateer’s “free rider” list will have their shipments of Privateer product, including new releases, delayed. The new policy goes into effect on April 4.
“We do not condone the free riders’ parasitic business model and elect to both continue and enhance our partnerships with those distributors that share our point of view and actively work in the best interests of the brick-and-mortar retailers,” Yeary continued. “While we cannot and would not dictate to our distributor partners who they can or cannot sell to, we believe free riders are eroding the foundation of our industry and hurting our business; only with the cooperation of our distribution partners can we prevent that.”
The letter also states online sales can continue, as “(w)e also recognize that online retailers provide access to the product to some customers who do not have ready access to a local brick-and-mortar store. We hope those online retailers with integrity and the foresight to protect the longevity and availability of the product lines providing their income will swiftly adjust any retailing practices that are counterproductive to the health of our industry.”
No maximum discount off retail price or other quantifiable measure of “counterproductive” business practices was outlined in Privateer’s letter, which said only that the process of creating the list would rely on an “internal evaluation process.” Nor was there any discussion of how Privateer will handle brick and mortar retailers that also sell online, for example as Amazon third party sellers, a growing trend.
ICv2 noted the growing channel conflict between brick and mortar game stores and online sellers (many of whom are also brick and mortar retailers disposing of excess inventory as Amazon third party sellers) in its most recent issue of Internal Correspondence #89 (see “Seven Years of Plenty in the Hobby Games Business”). And Privateer’s store support is definitely being affected by the problem, according to the report. Retailer Gary Ray of Black Diamond Games in Concord, California, for example, dropped Privateer products because of channel conflict. “There is a huge demand for the game, but everybody is buying it online at a discount,” Ray said of Warmachine. “It got down to one turn per year and we dropped it.”
Privateer is the latest in a growing list of manufacturers addressing the channel conflict between brick-and-mortar and online retailers. Asmodee NA has a policy going into effect in April, and discusses similar reasons why the “one-size-fits-all” system of distribution has undermined the financial position of Friendly Local Game Stores which offer additional services and community in addition to selling games (see “ICv2 Interview: Asmodee North America CEO Christian Petersen, Part 2”). WizKids introduced a policy limiting preorders on new HeroClix product last year (see “Rolling for Initiative--Kudos to WizKids” and Mayfair Games has a long-standing policy limiting online discount as well (see “Online Discounting of Games - One Year Later”).
The horrible flaw is the assumption that raising online prices will drive sales to the FLGS when it is extremely likely that the people who bought online will continue to buy online. They'll either buy less because of the prices or switch to different manufacturers.
And that's ignoring the other flaw: this policy doesn't even work. The cheap eBay and Amazon sellers continue to exist.
The current Ebay seller I buy from, DGS is going to cap their discount to 10% as well. But they're now offering free international shipping for PP stuff apparently, so that works for me too
Sining wrote: The current Ebay seller I buy from, DGS is going to cap their discount to 10% as well. But they're now offering free international shipping for PP stuff apparently, so that works for me too
The bizarre thing about capping the discount at 10% is... it's mandating the online guys take more profit. So, maybe places like MM end up with radically discounted shipping, maybe they have different promotions (they already have a MM points system that translates to cents off other items, they can just expand this system).
When it comes down to purchasing, other then the crappy quality of much of PP's miniatures, the biggest obstacle is PP's huge number of SKUs. At the local place I go to play, they stock a lot of PP, but it never seems to include the things I want. As long as their line is so large and so difficult to keep in stock, I don't foresee any real shift in people's buying habits.
If the choice is I can get something at MM for 10% off, no tax (since I'm not in their state) and free shipping, versus having my FLGS special order it (taking Lord knows how long...), then paying full retail +tax, why would I choose local? The only reason would be if the local was making up for this somehow... but then I would already be buying from them!
I wonder if they'll do what they've done for Flames of War? For those who don't know, they give bonus rewards points on Flames of War stuff because there's a discount limit. So, you get essentially $5 of store credit by buying certain things.
This kind of circles back to my main argument: blocking discounters doesn't work. There's enough online retailers trying to compete that they WILL find ways to undercut each other.
Sining wrote: The current Ebay seller I buy from, DGS is going to cap their discount to 10% as well. But they're now offering free international shipping for PP stuff apparently, so that works for me too
The bizarre thing about capping the discount at 10% is... it's mandating the online guys take more profit. So, maybe places like MM end up with radically discounted shipping, maybe they have different promotions (they already have a MM points system that translates to cents off other items, they can just expand this system).
When it comes down to purchasing, other then the crappy quality of much of PP's miniatures, the biggest obstacle is PP's huge number of SKUs. At the local place I go to play, they stock a lot of PP, but it never seems to include the things I want. As long as their line is so large and so difficult to keep in stock, I don't foresee any real shift in people's buying habits.
If the choice is I can get something at MM for 10% off, no tax (since I'm not in their state) and free shipping, versus having my FLGS special order it (taking Lord knows how long...), then paying full retail +tax, why would I choose local? The only reason would be if the local was making up for this somehow... but then I would already be buying from them!
MM has something called FiM (Fedex International Mail) which seems a lot cheaper than any other online discounter I've bought from in the past. Shipping a kodiak + 1 blister of WMH stuff to Singapore only cost me about 5 usd, which is less than the markup local stores have on their products
Sining wrote: The current Ebay seller I buy from, DGS is going to cap their discount to 10% as well. But they're now offering free international shipping for PP stuff apparently, so that works for me too
The bizarre thing about capping the discount at 10% is... it's mandating the online guys take more profit. So, maybe places like MM end up with radically discounted shipping, maybe they have different promotions (they already have a MM points system that translates to cents off other items, they can just expand this system).
I suggested something like this after the first time they dropped the discount to 10%. Triple (or whatever ) bonus points would work out the same in the long run, and has the nice incentive to MM of helping to guarantee future purchases (even non PP purchases) come from them as well. Its a bit of a hassle for everyone involved, but the boost to repeat business should make it worthwhile for them,
Sucks for your meta, but with the massive presales of the new edition stuff and over 200 reported new retailers signing up to carry stock they don't seem to be suffering too much for the change.
I'm glad I stopped back in to catch up on this. It seems people are selling off in heavy numbers so I guess I'll hold off posting my Menoth stuff until a bit later. Mine isn't so much from these policies as the extra attention from them making me realize that I have not touched my WMH stuff in quite a few years..
I will say that while I do not like what PP is doing or what has similarly been done by GW in the past I think both of those create really excellent opportunities for younger companies trying to make a name for themselves. Let's not forget that a large part of Mantics' success has been attributed to similar policies taking hold and driving forlorn gamers to the open arms of GW's tiny-foot producing cousin. I imagine this will have a similar effect.
*rushes to make a game about steampunk robots beating each other senseless*
AduroT wrote: Sucks for your meta, but with the massive presales of the new edition stuff and over 200 reported new retailers signing up to carry stock they don't seem to be suffering too much for the change.
It would suck for my meta if I was a supporter of the game - but even with a 25% discount, I have not bought any Privateer figures in years.
The not-so-local game store is supporting the game at the same level that they have all along, but sales for Warmahordes are down by almost 30% from last year at this same time. (And has been since before the announcement of 3rd ed.)
It could just be because Kings of War is really taking off here, so people are grabbing an excuse to unload their unwanted Warmahordes. (Which is, in my estimation, really silly - it would not be that hard to use the Warmahorde miniatures in Kings of War.)
X-Wing is kicking butt.
the Auld Grump - Warmahordes is still doing better than Age of Sigmar... but that really is not saying much.
Killionaire wrote: You know, I for one applaud any effort to support the LGS. I do 90% of my gaming through FLGS, multiple in my are and previous area where I used to live.
Just because some people don't play primarily at their FLGS doesn't mean the FLGS doesn't provide a valuable service for others.
That's nice you have an FLGS - prior to 2 years ago, I didn't have one within a hundred miles of me.
Killionaire wrote: You know, I for one applaud any effort to support the LGS. I do 90% of my gaming through FLGS, multiple in my are and previous area where I used to live.
Just because some people don't play primarily at their FLGS doesn't mean the FLGS doesn't provide a valuable service for others.
Thankfully there's still several retailers offering 30%+ off or more so that I do not have to pay to support your FLGS
