SeanDrake wrote: I am not sure why a company selling pvc products made in the same factory as mantics were but charging 300%+ more can get arsey about a 20% discount.
Seriously this sounds more like them wanting to squeeze every cent they can out of there product same as ffg and gw.
It should not be up to manufactures to prop up stores with a failing bussiness model.
I agree, to an extent. It feels like PP Is thinking they are too big for their britches a la GW did, but could be not as malicious (how does that saying go again). I do personally feel that the FLGS is dying out as a concept and only largely sticks around because, IMHO again, people are lazy and would rather go to a store to meet/buy than actually look around for a gaming club to join (which is funny because that was never an issue in the RPG world, you rarely if ever went to a store to play, you talked to people and went to somebody's home) which I feel is a much better model.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what PP does to support game stores (I used to be a Press Ganger for a short while). I just feel that the entire concept of a game store is rooted in 1980s-90s mentality and has never really evolved to the modern day. A gaming club, while an older concept, would IMHO have much more success in the age of social media where it would be much easier to locate and coordinate meetups.
PP have a bit of a track record with being stuck in a nineties mindset with things though. Stuff like the original page five, "xtreme" sculpts, vociferously swearing they'd stick to sculpting figures out of METAL forever...
I like PP games, but PP the company is far from perfect.
Da Boss wrote: PP have a bit of a track record with being stuck in a nineties mindset with things though. Stuff like the original page five, "xtreme" sculpts, vociferously swearing they'd stick to sculpting figures out of METAL forever...
I like PP games, but PP the company is far from perfect.
You do realise the last bit was a joke, right? As they also said they'd deplete the world supply of pewter by 2012 (IIRC) and reinvented the wheel, covered it in spikes and ran it over your grandmother's house.
I took it as a humourous statement of intent, rather than an outright joke. I mean, they stuck with metal for their big models even though it's not a particularly appropriate medium, and it took them a fair while to switch to plastic.
Admittedly, I am bitter about that as my Trollblood army came apart in transit despite being pinned, greenstuffed and locktite'd, as well as being in a specially foam insert inside a KR multicase. The chipped paint and need for repairs has essentially shelved the army because I am too disheartened to go through it all again.
Edit: You seem pretty aware of the phenomenon of GW White Knighting, but consider whether you're falling prey to some of the same biases yourself.
SeanDrake wrote: I am not sure why a company selling pvc products made in the same factory as mantics were but charging 300%+ more can get arsey about a 20% discount.
Seriously this sounds more like them wanting to squeeze every cent they can out of there product same as ffg and gw.
It should not be up to manufactures to prop up stores with a failing bussiness model.
I agree, to an extent. It feels like PP Is thinking they are too big for their britches a la GW did, but could be not as malicious (how does that saying go again). I do personally feel that the FLGS is dying out as a concept and only largely sticks around because, IMHO again, people are lazy and would rather go to a store to meet/buy than actually look around for a gaming club to join (which is funny because that was never an issue in the RPG world, you rarely if ever went to a store to play, you talked to people and went to somebody's home) which I feel is a much better model.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what PP does to support game stores (I used to be a Press Ganger for a short while). I just feel that the entire concept of a game store is rooted in 1980s-90s mentality and has never really evolved to the modern day. A gaming club, while an older concept, would IMHO have much more success in the age of social media where it would be much easier to locate and coordinate meetups.
Your later point rings really true. Comic/game stores are a relic of my 80's youth... but you know what else was? Mall culture. For two decades a teenager could get dropped off at the mall and be entertained by any hole in the wall... just because they were there being social. It was as vapid as modern social media... but we did it face-to-face. :-p So, game stores or comic shops worked around "hang-out culture"... which doesn't exist in the same numbers.
I make it a habit on every single vacation, work-trip, day-trip with the wife, etc... to visit any game/hobby shop in any city I happen to go to. Its become a rather depressing affair and a viscious cycle of those stores being nothing but Magic: The Gather opium den looking places, where generally younger customers come in and partake in abusive secondary-market-driven "collectible" gaming. This just barely keeps many of said stores going, and in turn fuels their attitude that table-top games, etc aren't worth their time. Thus they don't have inventory in that area further cementing the store as another CCG shop.
I live an hour away from NYC, and within an hour of countless big cities in the tri-state area... if this area struggles to sustain a couple decent miniatures-centric shops (and there are a couple), I can't imagine how they do it anywhere less populous.
It isn't a matter of my liking it, or disliking it... but the reality is that the comic/game shop model is just on its last legs.
When all I knew was a Hobby Town that hosted 40k, I played 3 times a year.
Then I found dakka and a local Facebook page for wargaming. Now I play twice a month at my house or the library. I went on to use the internet to discover and travel to gaming cons with friends I'd met online.
Two of them got into 40k through Dawn of War.
We now play a list of games we discovered online...Bolt Action, Battle group, Xwing, ect..)
I understand the value of a good FLGS to some people, but in no way shape or form is gaming existentially dependent on a B&M.
Da Boss wrote: I took it as a humourous statement of intent, rather than an outright joke. I mean, they stuck with metal for their big models even though it's not a particularly appropriate medium, and it took them a fair while to switch to plastic.
Admittedly, I am bitter about that as my Trollblood army came apart in transit despite being pinned, greenstuffed and locktite'd, as well as being in a specially foam insert inside a KR multicase. The chipped paint and need for repairs has essentially shelved the army because I am too disheartened to go through it all again.
Edit: You seem pretty aware of the phenomenon of GW White Knighting, but consider whether you're falling prey to some of the same biases yourself.
Yes, I does come across as that a little. Was posting from my phone at work so I had to be concise.
I in no way think PP are perfect and gak rainbows etc. Whilst on a personal level they've done nothing to piss me off so they're fine as far as I'm concerned, but that is far from the MO of the run of the mill GW knight of a certain hue.
Fair enough - they've not pissed me off either, but I don't see that the distance between them and GW is as huge as it could be, especially on premium pricing for mediocre minis.
Strombones wrote: Now I play twice a month at my house or the library.
The library? How does that work? Do they have an event or community room that you can reserve?
A lot of places do. Back in high school, my history club (history lesson plus a few gaming in the related period) would sometimes make use of them. Reasonable enough rates on a Saturday afternoon.
This move from PP is in such poor taste, I still can't believe it. You could teach this in a class on PR as a how-not-to example. It's not going to help the LGS (not that I believe it was ever really intended to), and it's not going to help retain customers. All it's going to do is alienate current or potential customers, like me. I'm certainly not going to start WMH now.
Strombones wrote: Now I play twice a month at my house or the library.
The library? How does that work? Do they have an event or community room that you can reserve?
A lot of places do. Back in high school, my history club (history lesson plus a few gaming in the related period) would sometimes make use of them. Reasonable enough rates on a Saturday afternoon.
Where did you guys meet? The library or your high school had available space? I have kind of derailed the thread a bit, but these are some good ideas for potential alternate venues. This might open things up a bit for the inevitable 'that store is too far' or 'so-and-so has three tables, but that is because he lives out in the boondocks'.
Strombones wrote: Now I play twice a month at my house or the library.
The library? How does that work? Do they have an event or community room that you can reserve?
A lot of places do. Back in high school, my history club (history lesson plus a few gaming in the related period) would sometimes make use of them. Reasonable enough rates on a Saturday afternoon.
Where did you guys meet? The library or your high school had available space? I have kind of derailed the thread a bit, but these are some good ideas for potential alternate venues. This might open things up a bit for the inevitable 'that store is too far' or 'so-and-so has three tables, but that is because he lives out in the boondocks'.
I think this is tangentially on-topic so...
Most of the time we'd use a room at my high school, which coincidentally was in the school library. Keep in mind though that I was a student and the club was overseen by a teacher, so not for the general public.
For special events, big games, and the sort that would take all afternoon, we'd rent a room at the local library. Don't know the rate personally, but since the club's budget was ~$0, it couldn't have been too much.
Regardless of what us consumers might think, it seems pretty clear that many of the companies that produce/create the games we play see a real reason to worry about what online discounters might be doing to the health of the hobby writ large. While it may be akin to trying to hold back the tide, GW and PP are hardly alone here.
Winning arguments always stem from "truthbombs" and memes.
Seriously, just have stores charge for play space. It's super unpopular in the US, but every other hobby that involves social play areas charges you for your fun in some fashion. Seems like wargaming is the anomaly. Instead of correcting, you just have manufacturers holding it into the "old ways" for no reason.
I'm okay with paying to play on any given day. I do it for tournaments and conventions. The built in guilt to buy at a place is no bueno.
I used to be a big supporter of PP, having been with them since the beginning. However the last year or so I have become disenchanted with the game and company. Part of it has been the model quality and part the game style just doesn't appeal to me anymore. To be honest the game is just not geared for narrative gamers like me. That being said I feel that the brick and mortar game store is a dying model. I work two retail jobs and they are both wisely embracing online sales, it is the future like it or not. Card games keep gamestores open where I live. The store near me had 36 players for the magic prerelease and no one playing tabletop miniature games.
I don't agree with FLGS are essential to the hobby, maybe for some but not all.
Back in my home country and even here in Japan there are no pure FLGS anymore most of them have diverged in other area's to survive.
PP can do whatever it wants but in these days of kickstarters, and small companies rising due the ease of 3D prototyping, i gladly take my money elsewhere.
PP needs me, i don't need PP.
I'm just against the whole attitude. I bought the DZC starter from MM because the discount made it a must purchase. Since then, I have ordered a number of their resin products through the FLGS and paid MSRP because they weren't too expensive and I wanted to support the FLGS and HW. However, if they are engaged in price protectionism and dicking around with eretailers, then it makes a big difference to me. On principle, I would purchase all their products from deep dis counters or not at all. And during the Kickstarter, I advised a lot of people who were on the fence to wait for the retail discounts who might now not ever get into the game if those discounts never materialize. Now I look like a fool and Hawk Wargames looks greedy.
I don't think that's "FLGS must be saved!" protectionism like PP and FFG are trying to wrap themselves in. I think that's just their standard terms offered to everyone and doesn't preclude the offer of other incentives or sales. It's just the maximum "standard advertised discount" if you want to get things, online or B&M. This is not really any different than going to some big box store and see "price shown in cart" on an item because it's below MSRP and that's not allowed to be advertised by the manufacturer's trade terms.
While still mildly annoying, I find that less troublesome than people who say "this group can do A because we like them for <reasons>, but these other customers are scum so we're going to make them not do things we don't like." While the end result isn't terribly different, in the former at least everyone is treated equally "badly" (since doing business with a manufacturer, especially in wargaming, is always a choice) while another company is clearly playing favorites based on channel.
So then it's not the same idea? More like Maytag disallowing department stores from advertizing sale prices as opposed to trying to prevent sale prices? That's not as worrisome to me as PP trying to feth around with the discounters' supply. I'm as loyal to Miniature Market and The War Store as I am to the FLGS. Good service and an attractive shopping experience won me over.
blackdiamond wrote:Privateer Press never sold great, but over the previous year, it sold terribly. Drumming up more support for more weekly events failed. The problem with Privateer Press is they do zero inventory control on their lines. No model has ever been discontinued to my knowledge. That means the line gets bigger, and bigger, and suddenly, after 12 years of selling Warmachine, you either reconcile with poor performance of the line or you drop it. There's an internal problem there, beyond sales.
Miniature wargames that require painting and assembly are just a bid fit for retail. Especially those that are played on a 4x4 or larger playing space. I know all the local stores who have ditched them in favor board games, card games and board-game like miniatures like X-Wing are very happy with their decision. X-Wing still takes special table tops they put over their normal card game tables, but it's far more manageable than games like Warmachine and 40k that take 4x4-6 foot tables.
This. As I said before in the thread, the biggest problem with the logic of "we're being undercut, that's why we can't sell at MSRP!" is that it presumes that there is a large group of people that would be willing to buy PP stuff at MSRP.
PP simply isn't selling a product (in many cases) that is worth the price they are demanding for it. That's my opinion and so I either 1) buy when the product has been sufficiently discounted to meet its quality, or 2) simply don't buy.
I've just had my fill of PVC. I would refuse it even if it was free. From what I've seen, PP's hard styrene based plastic is good. Their resin is just excellent and their metal is pretty good too, but now there are insufficient products in a given army to avoid the PVC. So I haven't started a new army since. I used to buy and paint up a new 50 point army every three months or so. Now I honestly can't remember the last PP product I bought. Oh, right, when the PVC Cephalyx Drudges came out, I snapped up the local store's metal ones so I could have a unit not in PVC. The metal drudges have some design issues, but I was willing to deal with those rather than spindly PVC with terrible parting lines.
I also noticed that I play less. Only monthly now instead of every week. Having a fresh army every 3-4 months really held my interest. So now I've been passing on metal releases for factions I have because I'm not super excited about playing them.
I totally get why people go with online discounters, their main material is terrible and not worth the price.
PP is free to *try* to control pricing all they want. I imagine those companies who discount heavily can simply offer better shipping rates and a smaller discount and still out compete the local stores who often suck. I know the one store left in town that stocks some PP stuff is really terrible in terms of promoting it. The guys who work there give zero feths about anything and they regularly put your special orders (regardless of manufacturer) on the shelf rather than contacting you about it. Why should some guy living 90 minutes outside of town have to subsidize that crap?
So then it's not the same idea? More like Maytag disallowing department stores from advertizing sale prices as opposed to trying to prevent sale prices? That's not as worrisome to me as PP trying to feth around with the discounters' supply. I'm as loyal to Miniature Market and The War Store as I am to the FLGS. Good service and an attractive shopping experience won me over.
That's my understanding; it could be wrong. Battlefront, for example, has a 10% "standard" discount cap that they've had in place for many years, but I think it applies equally to all channels and not just one they feel is naughty. That also doesn't preclude sales/clearances, nor does it mean you can't make up the difference in other ways. For example, Miniature Market gives you a bonus 500 points on $50 of FoW (or another 10% off on a future order if you only order about that much) and I have seen other stores offer 10% extra discount on items they do not have in stock (an idea many FLGS around me should consider, but don't because of all these online "parasites" I guess). Main complaint others have about Battlefront's price floor is they do like to sell below that themselves from time to time, though as a consumer that does work to my benefit so it'd be hypocritical for me to join in on that chorus.
MattofWar wrote: PP is free to *try* to control pricing all they want. I imagine those companies who discount heavily can simply offer better shipping rates and a smaller discount and still out compete the local stores who often suck. I know the one store left in town that stocks some PP stuff is really terrible in terms of promoting it. The guys who work there give zero feths about anything and they regularly put your special orders (regardless of manufacturer) on the shelf rather than contacting you about it. Why should some guy living 90 minutes outside of town have to subsidize that crap?
Clearly because those guys who are not providing basic customer service are the ones growing the hobby and continuing to promote the product to increase sales. That's why they don't have time to call you about your orders; they can't hear the delivery guy arriving over all the promoting they're doing. In this topsy-turvy world do you expect them to pick up the phone and call you so that you can drive to the store? Who's going to be promoting the lines THEN? You? Pshaw! I think not, that would imply that there's some sort of advertising that occurred via the words that came out of people's mouths and we all know that's a myth. Now, to the corner to think about what you've said you naughty, naughty walking-wallet.
Joking aside, I suspect the main issue underlining PP's stated goal is that many LGS owners got into business because they liked games (which are fun) and not because they liked being a business-owner (which is decidedly less so). Thus they often make business mistakes like hiring "passionate" but ineffectual employees, inflexibly clinging to "MSRP or bust!" without realizing business is still negotiation and, at least in my area for nearly all the stores, not collecting/tracking customer purchase data in aid of selling future purchases. Doing any one of those is kind of a dumb idea, and I'm pretty sure most people with a LGS can name stores that do all of them and many more. Meanwhile, those "free-riding" online vendors tend to have all that squared away...almost like it makes business sense or something.
Strombones wrote: Now I play twice a month at my house or the library.
The library? How does that work? Do they have an event or community room that you can reserve?
A lot of places do. Back in high school, my history club (history lesson plus a few gaming in the related period) would sometimes make use of them. Reasonable enough rates on a Saturday afternoon.
Where did you guys meet? The library or your high school had available space? I have kind of derailed the thread a bit, but these are some good ideas for potential alternate venues. This might open things up a bit for the inevitable 'that store is too far' or 'so-and-so has three tables, but that is because he lives out in the boondocks'.
Apologies for the horrible layout of this post but I am on my phone.
I move around a lot due to my job so I have been to clubs in all sorts of places such as:
community centres, libraries,schools, service/veterans clubs, a room above a restaurant, a pub and even in a workshop/garage.
All you need is somewhere weather proof that is out of the way, with enough space for tables and ideally somewhere to store terrain.
OK, first of all exalted for the above because it was clearly a fun post to read and make your point! :-)
Second, the fact that some store employees (and even worse, owners?!) who sit in front of YouTube all day, don't greet customers entering their facility, allow product to gather dust, don't pick up the phone to inform customers etc, yes, we can all safely agree they are not the ones promoting the hobby anyway. Ever. But I think we can also all agree (at some degree at least) that (F)LGS have everything it takes in order to do so. Some people posted before how some stores thrive and some don't since there are plenty of things these stores can do in order to generate interest and augment income.
Someone posted above that stores don't have what it takes to create tournament play. And yes, while we know some stores may but some may not have the room in order to host 50+ people's tournaments, but they might as well organize it, (charge a ticket, phone their clientelle to let them know and gather the players, rent a place, work on making a diorama to inspire people, take care of food&beverages, supply tables, chairs, terrain... so many many things to do, and still make a profit.
It isn't a matter of "this type of business is dying so let it die" imo, it's more about making sure to play your cards right since the game is still very much on. :-)
Spoiler:
A side note of a personal side: I go by a couple of main guidelines in my life, they work well for me; one of them goes from Latin "Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam" which I also had inscribed some 7-8 years ago on the back of my motorcycle helmet. Maybe FLGS personnel (whom you have heard complain about the on-line retailers) should look it up... ;-)
If the distributors don't comply, their shipments will be delayed. But most distributor sales reps are just going to blame the manufacturer when stores call in and ask why something is still backordered. It happens already. A customer asks a store why something didn't come in (the distributor didn't have it) and the store asks the distributor where their order is (the manufacturer hasn't shipped it yet) and the distributor asks the manufacturer (it's on a boat coming from China). Everyone just shifts the blame up the distribution ladder as soon as someone is dissatisfied. And now if distributors don't give up customers the manufacturers don't like, everyone will all get longer delays (as all shipments to the distributor will be delayed, not just the ones going to online stores).
Everyone who deals with the retail channel is already used to delays and excuses. So is this really about convincing distributors to not sell to certain kinds of customers (or convincing those customers to change) or is it about trying to make online sellers take longer to fill orders so everyone gets to have the same crappy delays?
Sining wrote: Seems MM says they won't comply with PPs new edict at all. Should be interesting to see just how much their business increases
Meh. I don't doubt it but it'd be a sticky dilemma because they're also a B&M FLGS in addition to being a fairly large, online retailer. They also had no problem giving GW the finger and walking away when things got ridiculous with them so I imagine the same will apply to PP.
It certainly doesn't help matters that yesterday privateer press was supposed to release the comprehensive list of free rider venues or companies they deem to be free riders to distributors.
Sining wrote: Seems MM says they won't comply with PPs new edict at all. Should be interesting to see just how much their business increases
Meh. I don't doubt it but it'd be a sticky dilemma because they're also a B&M FLGS in addition to being a fairly large, online retailer. They also had no problem giving GW the finger and walking away when things got ridiculous with them so I imagine the same will apply to PP.
I wouldn't really call them a FLGS. They've got a small storefront tacked onto their warehouse in an out of the way light industrial park, no tables, and are open no later than six. They're an online retailer with what's essentially the bare minimum to have a brick and mortar to meet some manufacturers' terms.
Sining wrote: Seems MM says they won't comply with PPs new edict at all. Should be interesting to see just how much their business increases
Meh. I don't doubt it but it'd be a sticky dilemma because they're also a B&M FLGS in addition to being a fairly large, online retailer. They also had no problem giving GW the finger and walking away when things got ridiculous with them so I imagine the same will apply to PP.
I wouldn't really call them a FLGS. They've got a small storefront tacked onto their warehouse in an out of the way light industrial park, no tables, and are open no later than six. They're an online retailer with what's essentially the bare minimum to have a brick and mortar to meet some manufacturers' terms.
That seems like parsing language to me. They have a B&M location which should satisfy the distribution issue. Does PP also require a store to have X number of table or X amount of non-retail gaming space to not be considered a "free rider"?
That seems like parsing language to me. They have a B&M location which should satisfy the distribution issue. Does PP also require a store to have X number of table or X amount of non-retail gaming space to not be considered a "free rider"?
I don't recall in the first post them even mentioning an exact discount that they considered to be the cutoff for being put on their double super secret probation list. It's better for them if they just leave everything as vague as possbile, you know... for the benefit of the player community and FLGS, so they can add or subtract businesses from the naughty list based on how they feel. Stuff like publicly available criteria just gets in the way of the all powerful whim.
I'm not going to get into whether or not MM should be considered a free rider. I'm just saying that they haven't been an FLGS for about... five years now, I think? I think it's been that long since they were on Watson, but my memory isn't terribly good.
MEH... kinda support where they come from as some one with 10 years of BnM retail exp i think the internet has created an unsustainable level of competition that has very real world effects. At the same time i feel certain retailers offer nothing to deserve special treatment and have sown the seeds of there own demise, but many people just want it cheaper and a lot that dont care about come back, community and service that this is the way its progressively going to go unless product manufactures and governments step in and make changes. Personally I buy as little as possible from the internet and support good quality shops that deserve it.
Sining wrote: Seems MM says they won't comply with PPs new edict at all. Should be interesting to see just how much their business increases
Do you have a quote/link or are you just assuming that from the recent sale?
Check their facebook page. Lots of people are asking them and they're saying that at the moment, they don't see themselves reducing their discount at all
According to the owner of DGI, apparently sales have gone down a lot since they enacted PPs new resolution. Like total profit is 50% down for that period. Also says DGI is hanging by a thread thanks to this new rule that they're trying to follow.
Sining wrote: According to the owner of DGI, apparently sales have gone down a lot since they enacted PPs new resolution. Like total profit is 50% down for that period. Also says DGI is hanging by a thread thanks to this new rule that they're trying to follow.
I don't like the new rules - but they've only been in affect 2 days now, so if they are hanging by a thread now that was likely the case before the policy change.
Sining wrote: According to the owner of DGI, apparently sales have gone down a lot since they enacted PPs new resolution. Like total profit is 50% down for that period. Also says DGI is hanging by a thread thanks to this new rule that they're trying to follow.
I don't like the new rules - but they've only been in affect 2 days now, so if they are hanging by a thread now that was likely the case before the policy change.
If he has also been stopped from selling xwing or it is simply not viable then that could also be another reason since FFG announced a similar policy a few months back. He's never been able to sell 40k/fantasy/aos online at similar discount and now warmahorde is affected right after xwing. Do you want to know what the most popular minis games in the industry according to ICV2 are? 40k, warmahorde, and xwing...all of which are now affected by unfriendly discount policies and potential manufacturer blacklisting.
Sining wrote: According to the owner of DGI, apparently sales have gone down a lot since they enacted PPs new resolution. Like total profit is 50% down for that period. Also says DGI is hanging by a thread thanks to this new rule that they're trying to follow.
I don't like the new rules - but they've only been in affect 2 days now, so if they are hanging by a thread now that was likely the case before the policy change.
Could be he's calculated that based on the past 2 days, he will barely be able to cover his expenditure by end of month.
"Unfortunately, the nature of that crackdown, or even what Privateer Press will classify as a "free rider" is pretty vaguely worded and targets distributors, where the company appears to think free riders get their product from, rather than the "free riding" retailer. Quoting from the letter, "…should a distributor choose to sell any Privateer Press product to any party that Privateer has identified as a free rider, the ramifications of that decision will affect the future of our partnership with that distributor." That's a pretty general statement regarding the effects of selling to a free rider. Further in the letter, the ramifications are a little more clearly spelled out as distributors who sell products to retailers on Privateer's free rider list will have their shipments delayed. Not canceled or refused, just delayed. No indication as to how long the delay will last, although the confidential free rider list going to distributors today may have more information.
The question, of course, is what defines a free rider and even more importantly, how will Privateer Press define one? Online only stores are a pretty easy given to appear on the list, as by their nature it is impossible for them to grow the PP market through the sorts of in store initiatives noted by Privateer in the company's letter. Where it becomes dicey is determining what constitutes growing the community in the eyes of Privateer and how does Privateer plan to determine this? Wizards of the Coast, Asmodee NA, Mayfair Games, even Games Workshop all have fairly specific policies regarding online sales, discounting or both but community growth is not a factor in whether you can carry their games. If a store sets up a card table with four unpainted Privateer figures on it and calls it a "demo table," does that qualify as growing the community? Will a store with multiple tables dedicated to gaming and shelves of terrain be counted equal to one with one table and a Press Ganger in regular attendance? In research terms, the other companies are using quantities standards to measure performance, while Privateer wants to incorporate qualitative ones as well. 'Twill be interesting to see what happens after April 4th."
I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.
Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.
So yes I think its a very good thing PP is taking this action.
Thimn wrote: I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.
Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.
So yes I think its a very good thing PP is taking this action.
Why though? If some random FLGS in a city can't manage to compete with online sellers why should rural gamers halfway across the country, or folk from other parts of the world who don't use the FLGS model to support their communities, be forced to pay what amounts to a subsidy to keep that failing business afloat?
The world has moved on, American FLGS can either adapt, or die off - either way, it shouldn't affect the ability of consumers who don't use them to find the best deal they can.
One interesting point from the Reddit discussion was the topic of channel logistics. To slightly adjust the numbers from their example (and keep in mind this is entirely hypothetical and solely for discussion):
PP products are sold in 1000 B&M stores, each store orders an average of 5 of Widget X from their distributor. Further, 5 huge online sellers order 200 each of Widget X from the same distributor. Total channel sales for PP are at 6000 units with 83% of the units being in B&M stores. For the sake of discussion, let's say in the first month (i.e. - the time Widget X is most desirable) that B&M averages 2 sales of Widget X, and the other 3 sit on the shelf. Online sellers average 150 each, with 50 remaining. This would make total retail sales are 2,750 units. B&M has sold 40% of their stock, while online has sold 75%. Overall sales of Widget X in this hypothetical would stand at less than 50% of what was produced.
Even though percentage-wise those 5 hypothetical online sellers account for the largest chunk of sales on an individual basis far outstripping any other competitor, in aggregate they're the small fish in the pond from PP's perspective. Those B&M stores total up to 5 times the sales from PP's perspective, but those smaller fish can't move product and so are more inclined to not order Widget Y when it comes out. So their protectionism would seem to be less about "FLGS is great for the community and vital to the hobby!" and more of "Our bottom line is being impacted and to hell with matching market demands better!" This would also account for why they're not refusing to ship to those places who sell cheaply, only that they will ship slower; this would theoretically enable the B&M to get more of those first month sales out the door due to the "have it now!" factor, which in turn keeps the total of "little guys" ordering higher. Not sure that will work in practice, but at least there's something resembling logic there.
As I believe hotsauceman's "jerk" FLGS owner made a point in either a blog post or a discussion thread, the manufacturers are partially to blame for the pricing wars as well. When they grossly overproduce an item, the logical conclusion is that item will end up being sold cheaper because that's kind of how supply and demand functions; when supply > demand = price typically goes lower. When that cycle becomes the norm, then the MSRP becomes a joke and people just wait for the "slow" shipments to save the money, or for their FLGS to drop the prices just before those shipments hit. Of course, producing less also cuts into PP's bottom line, so again, "online sellers are the debil! rabblerabblerabble!" makes more sense for them.
Thimn wrote: I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.
Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.
How do you know people are buying online as opposed to the store? Are you basing that assumption on local stores stopped carrying PP product and cutting back on stock and the game still being played, so that means the game is still popular which means additional sales should be happening?
Well, my local stores have stopped stocking PP stuff cause they can't sell it but we've seen more new players in the last year or so. I know they're buying online, we've been doing so since back when the shops stocked PP stuff
Warmahordes is roughly 1000 different SKU's. That's an insane amount of product to stock! Wyrd moved away from all of their units being available singly to more boxed sets to make distribution/stocking easier. I'm wondering if PP should follow suit. Maybe they could offer some kind of B&M only bundles, like the "all in" boxes they previously had?
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Warmahordes is roughly 1000 different SKU's. That's an insane amount of product to stock! Wyrd moved away from all of their units being available singly to more boxed sets to make distribution/stocking easier. I'm wondering if PP should follow suit. Maybe they could offer some kind of B&M only bundles, like the "all in" boxes they previously had?
Or they could just funnel the obscure rarely stocked sales to their own web portal where they'll charge full MSRP and cut out all the middle men in the purchase chain... you know... the real reason they're following in GW's footsteps.
Sining wrote: Well, my local stores have stopped stocking PP stuff cause they can't sell it but we've seen more new players in the last year or so. I know they're buying online, we've been doing so since back when the shops stocked PP stuff
How do we know they are buying online as opposed to buying from a secondary market? I mean we get new XWing players as well but most of them have been buying from other players who have stopped playing, left the hobby, switch factions or downsizing. I've seen just as many new players as well as the just as many drop the game for something else.
I'm not saying that is what is happening... but there is definitely a smoke and mirrors going on, making it seem like PP cares about the LGS when that isn't' entirely accurate.
Sigvatr wrote: . I don't think someone just walks by a LGS and goes inside (keep in mind that most GS don't have minis on display viewable from the outside), see a miniature game and thinks "Hey, I'm going to immediately buy a few miniatures!".
I did, years before I actually started playing. Going into Little Wars in Baton Rouge as a kid in the 1980's and wanting pretty much everything is what first got me into gaming.
That store is still around, too, though they've moved because a Walmart bought the retail area they used to be in.
Thimn wrote: I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.
Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.
How do you know people are buying online as opposed to the store? Are you basing that assumption on local stores stopped carrying PP product and cutting back on stock and the game still being played, so that means the game is still popular which means additional sales should be happening?
I know where people are buying from because I am part of the same groups of people. They post the deals they find online, and no tax and free shipping, and suddenly its harder to justify spending locally. I am also friends with local store owners and have had this discussion going on with them for the past year. The owners know people can get it online for cheaper, and even offering 25% off isn't enticing enough to have people shop locally at the same volume as years past.(It has been enough to get a few guys to order locally though).
Listen I know not everyone plays at a FLGS, but if the game publishers are losing customers (the stores refusing to carry PP stock because of online competition) it is not healthy for the game in the long run.
While there are similarities, the big difference is that Nintendo was not only the market leader at that time but also a majority iirc with Sega and Atari a distant second and third. That is not the case with Pp.
Sining wrote: Seems MM says they won't comply with PPs new edict at all. Should be interesting to see just how much their business increases
Meh. I don't doubt it but it'd be a sticky dilemma because they're also a B&M FLGS in addition to being a fairly large, online retailer. They also had no problem giving GW the finger and walking away when things got ridiculous with them so I imagine the same will apply to PP.
I wouldn't really call them a FLGS. They've got a small storefront tacked onto their warehouse in an out of the way light industrial park, no tables, and are open no later than six. They're an online retailer with what's essentially the bare minimum to have a brick and mortar to meet some manufacturers' terms.
They do have some tables in the back, actually, that they use for tournaments. They've got weekly Magic events and do other stuff like X-Wing and Dice Masters on roughly a every-other-month basis.
I do have to admit they're primarily online, though. Their retail section is basically just clearance shelves. Most purchases have to be pulled from the back warehouse.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Warmahordes is roughly 1000 different SKU's. That's an insane amount of product to stock! Wyrd moved away from all of their units being available singly to more boxed sets to make distribution/stocking easier. I'm wondering if PP should follow suit. Maybe they could offer some kind of B&M only bundles, like the "all in" boxes they previously had?
Or they could just funnel the obscure rarely stocked sales to their own web portal where they'll charge full MSRP and cut out all the middle men in the purchase chain... you know... the real reason they're following in GW's footsteps.
Thimn wrote: I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.
Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.
So yes I think its a very good thing PP is taking this action.
Why though? If some random FLGS in a city can't manage to compete with online sellers why should rural gamers halfway across the country, or folk from other parts of the world who don't use the FLGS model to support their communities, be forced to pay what amounts to a subsidy to keep that failing business afloat?
The world has moved on, American FLGS can either adapt, or die off - either way, it shouldn't affect the ability of consumers who don't use them to find the best deal they can.
Yeah, damn them! They better get with the times so club-based gamers can buy cheap stuff online!
Thimn wrote: I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.
Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.
So yes I think its a very good thing PP is taking this action.
Why though? If some random FLGS in a city can't manage to compete with online sellers why should rural gamers halfway across the country, or folk from other parts of the world who don't use the FLGS model to support their communities, be forced to pay what amounts to a subsidy to keep that failing business afloat?
The world has moved on, American FLGS can either adapt, or die off - either way, it shouldn't affect the ability of consumers who don't use them to find the best deal they can.
Yeah, damn them! They better get with the times so club-based gamers can buy cheap stuff online!
I'm sure that if PP supporters want them to go down the GW route, then they'll be quite happy to support them doing just that.
Sining wrote: Well, my local stores have stopped stocking PP stuff cause they can't sell it but we've seen more new players in the last year or so. I know they're buying online, we've been doing so since back when the shops stocked PP stuff
How do we know they are buying online as opposed to buying from a secondary market? I mean we get new XWing players as well but most of them have been buying from other players who have stopped playing, left the hobby, switch factions or downsizing. I've seen just as many new players as well as the just as many drop the game for something else.
I'm not saying that is what is happening... but there is definitely a smoke and mirrors going on, making it seem like PP cares about the LGS when that isn't' entirely accurate.
Cause I'm part of the same group and we do group buys to help with shipping?
Yeah, what PP is essentially saying is that their MSRP is based on the idea the the stores are providing services to the customer such as tournaments, playing space that you use regularly, community nights, workshops and demonstrations. If your store is providing you those things, awesome, they're earning their money and you should be happy all around. If they are not, then you're paying the "baked-in services" price and then not receiving those services which evidently accounts for 30%+ of the actual cost of the product (so, not an insubstantial amount). This is a bad deal, as you're not getting/using what you paid for.
The "discount" price is simply not charging the customer for services they weren't getting. That lower overhead is basically because the discounters aren't having to provide for what the manufacturers are suggesting the end-customer pay for, and in many cases couldn't use anyway. At that point, it would probably make much better economic sense to drop the "dealer-installed options" from the price and let the LGS find the appropriate way to monetize those services on their own. That would eliminate the vast gulf between B&M and retail in unit price, because the manufacturer is really only charging for the product again rather than how that product will be delivered. On paper though, that massively cuts into the FLGS's profit margin on product (because you know PP isn't going to drop wholesale price, just MSRP, which makes it a less attractive acquisition), and if the FLGS start charging for services that "used to be free" (even if they weren't really but just subsidized differently) then they're still in the same boat of closing up due to lack of funds when people just go "well I'll play at home then!"
Still, if your business model fails without the kindness of third parties who also compete with you at times, then you should really investigate better business models. I have a feeling the era of wargaming stuff being sold in a retail setting will gradually fade away outside of mass-market stuff like FFG and vertically integrated setups like GW; neither of which seems to be easily replicated by other manufacturers.
"Note: In an effort to prevent us from selling their products at our current discount, Privateer Press has threatened to delay our new item shipments to our distribution partners. As a result, there is a chance that new item purchases could be delayed by 7-14 days past their release date. We have no intentions of raising our prices or ceasing to carry Privateer Press products. Let your voice be heard by contacting Privateer Press directly at: http://privateerpress.com/contact"
The Warmachine players I know all shop from Miniature Market (there's no place in town to get them), and they seem pretty loyal to both of them. As far as they are concerned, Warmachine and Miniature Market are more or less two halves of the same whole. If this turns into a nasty divorce, I honestly don't know where their loyalties would end up.
Sining wrote: So far both Warstore and DGI have complied. Not sure what other big retailers there are for online discounts
It's basically the prisoner's dilemma. If MM stands firm and Warstore and DGI cave, MM eats their lunch. If all fold, PP gets their way. If all go back to offering a discount, I have a suspicion PP drops the policy or modifies it to be more draconian.
Right now MM is the best game in town, assuming you can deal w a 1-2 week delay. I don't know about your paint queue, but mine is way longer than that. Assuming I plan purchases, buying from MM impacts me very little. I don't play at a LGS, so really it is price that is my determining factor now.
I haven't been to The War Store in a while, but they've redesigned since I was there last. They now have these giant banners for the biggest games - but I notice that Warmachine isn't one of them. Click on Steampunk and you get Dystopian Wars and Malifaux. Click on Fantasy and Age of Sigmar shows up, and they can't even sell AoS stuff through their webstore. Has this always been the case, or am I just reading it as passive aggressive when it's just coincidence?
Sining wrote: So far both Warstore and DGI have complied. Not sure what other big retailers there are for online discounts
It's basically the prisoner's dilemma. If MM stands firm and Warstore and DGI cave, MM eats their lunch. If all fold, PP gets their way. If all go back to offering a discount, I have a suspicion PP drops the policy or modifies it to be more draconian.
Right now MM is the best game in town, assuming you can deal w a 1-2 week delay. I don't know about your paint queue, but mine is way longer than that. Assuming I plan purchases, buying from MM impacts me very little. I don't play at a LGS, so really it is price that is my determining factor now.
Considering for my LGS to order from PP, it takes them about a month or two for the orders to arrive, I can deal with 1-2 weeks
Sqorgar wrote: I haven't been to The War Store in a while, but they've redesigned since I was there last. They now have these giant banners for the biggest games - but I notice that Warmachine isn't one of them. Click on Steampunk and you get Dystopian Wars and Malifaux. Click on Fantasy and Age of Sigmar shows up, and they can't even sell AoS stuff through their webstore. Has this always been the case, or am I just reading it as passive aggressive when it's just coincidence?
They redesigned before the change, though I think they did drop the Warmahordes banner. Were I Neal, I certainly would push other games whose publishers arent fething with me. Higher margins only go so far when your sales are gutted.
Manchu wrote: Publishers are used to bullying the LGS. They are not used to pushing around a company with the market share of MM.
If PP tries to muscle MM I could see it blowing up in their faces.
Absolutely.. honestly.. selling more of their stuff is the last thing I would do. If ALL of those places completely drop the products.. Just list them at cost and walk away, PP would be in a really really bad spot.
As much as i do support local game stores, I also am addicted to cheap online prices. This is the nature of the free market, if there is a more efficient way of getting goods to the consumer then it will be successful in the end. Gaming at the store is just one slice of many choices that include... a local gaming club that rents space, gaming in my own home or my friends, and attending events. And with cheap online prices i simply have far more stuff to play with and more games to play. If a game store can't afford to sell at a discount, well, they might be better off just providing a space to play and charging for that service, as well as providing food, drinks, etc. All of which I'm happy to pay for, rather than subsidize an inefficient system out of some sense of duty. Or maybe I'm just tired of paying prices higher than MSRP, when I know I could be saving all this money, and feel like I'm donating to a charity when I buy at my local store?
of course maybe i'm wrong, and once online discounters are punished then the game stores will profit and create so many more gamers that are happy to pay the higher prices. I doubt it. Case in point, Xwing's rise vs. 40k. Of which i will argue, xwing's availability on internet channels is a factor. A major complaint about 40k is prices (and i think it's equally important to complaints about rules, but really they go together)... a problem that might be mitigated if the discounters were allowed their way. Yeah i know, you can still get 40k for 20% off online. sure, but it is not quite deep enough to really stoke the flame, and harder to get in general. Correct me if I'm wrong... but if a company is selling MORE product and making more money... how is that bad? They really think that they will stop making money some time in the future? Well you can try.... sponsoring events? Supporting local game clubs? Hell, i can even play xwing at my local starbucks. it's not hard.
If MM stood up to Asmodee with all that sweet Star Wars Armada, X-Wing, etc. then that would be super impressive.
Asmodee has threatened to completely cut people off not just delay stuff.
Standing up to a threat of a delayed product is not as edgy.
I personally do not buy into the narrative that an LGS can't change it's model to a successful one that can compete in a fast growing market. If an LGS says it has a poor margin on PP products they are either lying through their teeth or have poor distributors. Most major distributors I know of give somewhere in the ballpark of 47-50% of cost on goods. That means close to a 100% markup at retail price. If you are savvy about events, demos, customer loyalty programs, and the rest of your overhead you can very easily sell these items at 20-30% off. And generally as price goes down volume goes up. So what's stopping an LGS that has received a bump in volume due to price decrease from expanding to online sells, even if you didn't want to go full tilt an Amazon or eBay store is easy and doesn't require you to have a professional webstore. No I agree with others who have said that LGSs need to adapt.
Meade wrote: ...Hell, i can even play xwing at my local starbucks. it's not hard.
As a reformed game evangelist, I will say that this may be just a slight bit harder than 'not hard'.
But I would seriously love to see photos of X-Wing being played at Starbucks especially if you can get multiple games going.
If you/your family happen to own said Starbucks, points will obviously have to be deducted.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DrNo172000 wrote: I personally do not buy into the narrative that an LGS can't change it's model to a successful one that can compete in a fast growing market. If an LGS says it has a poor margin on PP products they are either lying through their teeth or have poor distributors. Most major distributors I know of give somewhere in the ballpark of 47-50% of cost on goods. That means close to a 100% markup at retail price. If you are savvy about events, demos, customer loyalty programs, and the rest of your overhead you can very easily sell these items at 20-30% off. And generally as price goes down volume goes up. So what's stopping an LGS that has received a bump in volume due to price decrease from expanding to online sells, even if you didn't want to go full tilt an Amazon or eBay store is easy and doesn't require you to have a professional webstore. No I agree with others who have said that LGSs need to adapt.
Essentially sounds like folks agree that if you don't live in a town of 250k population, then you need to join a club and buy all your stuff online.
privateer4hire wrote: Essentially sounds like folks agree that if you don't live in a town of 250k population, then you need to join a club and buy all your stuff online.
These remarks seem like ... nonsequiturs. Not sure what being "edgy" has to do with ... well, anything. Plus - do you really think that only places with 250k+ population merit competitive local business practices? Although I am kind of ... scratch that, I am completely suspicious of any poster who aims to drag this back to PP's Approved Official Party Line Message that they are just sticking up for poor ole mom and pop (is that an edgy enough stand?) when what we're really talking about is trying to squash online retailers to make room for a direct sales channel.
Honestly, I don't think OLGS-only buyers and FLGS customers can be reconciled on this. As long as OLGS can sell at maximum discount, that's all that matters. After all, OLGS is sticking up for the poor old consumer. That's their sole concern with their practices.
This is the same line of logic that people use when they dismiss FLGS customers/FLGSs.
Online retailers don't have to pretend to be standing up for the retail customer because anyone can see how the interests of both parties are aligned. This alignment is precisely what makes online retail so competitive.
If you pay retail then you are paying a premium price. Now - if you feel like you are getting something out of the LGS for that premium price, by all means shell out your dollars. Don't expect others to spend their money on your behalf, however.
And for certain do not expect me to pay MSRP or any other arbitrary amount resulting from a unilateral price-fixing policy just so publishers like PP can clock higher profits ... which again is the actual bottom line here, rather than anything to do with the LGS.
Manchu wrote: Online retailers don't have to pretend to be standing up for the retail customer because anyone can see how the interests of both parties are aligned. This alignment is precisely what makes online retail so competitive.
If you pay retail then you are paying a premium price. Now - if you feel like you are getting something out of the LGS for that premium price, by all means shell out your dollars. Don't expect others to spend their money on your behalf, however.
And for certain do not expect me to pay MSRP or any other arbitrary amount resulting from a unilateral price-fixing policy just so publishers like PP can clock higher profits ... which again is the actual bottom line here, rather than anything to do with the LGS.
I guess? How does PP get more money from online retailers
raising prices? Their take is fixed, and their only other direct
presence is via convention and online only exclusives. This
only makes more money for PP if the policy increases sales
volume.
Am I overlooking something?
Also, thewarstore totally has a banner for Warmachine under
Steampunk Miniatures.
Manchu wrote: Online retailers don't have to pretend to be standing up for the retail customer because anyone can see how the interests of both parties are aligned. This alignment is precisely what makes online retail so competitive.
If you pay retail then you are paying a premium price. Now - if you feel like you are getting something out of the LGS for that premium price, by all means shell out your dollars. Don't expect others to spend their money on your behalf, however.
And for certain do not expect me to pay MSRP or any other arbitrary amount resulting from a unilateral price-fixing policy just so publishers like PP can clock higher profits ... which again is the actual bottom line here, rather than anything to do with the LGS.
I guess? How does PP get more money from online retailers
raising prices? Their take is fixed, and their only other direct
presence is via convention and online only exclusives. This
only makes more money for PP if the policy increases sales
volume.
Am I overlooking something?
Also, thewarstore totally has a banner for Warmachine under
Steampunk Miniatures.
Direct Sales. PP wants to cut out the middle man and sell at the full price.
Have PP said if this affects UK and rest of Europe too? Assuming it does PP is boned. GW were and technically still are a big company and do whatever they please. Privateer on the other hand are tiny and have very little presence outside the U.S.
Cant get stuff online most months never mind in store unless you live in London as anywhere else is barren on lgs
I'm reading it as PP thinks the LGS is important for the long-term survival of ifs miniature gaming line because that's where customers play the game, and new customers are exposed to it.
PP and ANA say OLGS's decrease the "perceived value" of games through their sales, lowering the prices consumers are willing to pay for them. Many customers say bullsh*t because they don't play games at the LGS and/or think games should be sold at market rates, not at what manufacturers say they should be sold at.
Direct Sales. PP wants to cut out the middle man and sell at the full price.
Privateer Press doesn't do direct sales.
The reason why they put out the convoluted press release they did, instead of Asmodee's simpler "We're no longer giving discounts to online stores, and we're changing our sales terms" statement is because Privateer Press sells to distributors who then sell to the stores.
TheWaspinator wrote: That response is actually kind of hilarious. PP's whole plan kind of breaks down if enough big retailers just say no.
Ironically, I think ANA's policy *is* the result of big retailers -- that is, Target, Amazon, Walmart, and B&N telling ANA that they will not carry (more of) their products unless receive special treatment. Specifically, I think these Big Box companies want to sell more product online, and they see the OLGS as their competitor. "Protecting the FLGS" is a smokescreen that sounds *much* better than "We're bending over and taking it because TAmaWaBaNoble says so."
For starters - why would PP do this if it didn't affect their bottom line? You are first and foremost overlooking that PP is a business. Next up, how exactly does unilaterally suppressing the competitiveness of online retailers help PP? There are two narratives:
First, there's the one about supporting the LGS: PP needs the LGS as a face-to-face point of sale and community host. The reasoning is, the LGS model grows and maintains PP's marketshare.
Second, there's the one about moving into online sales: Like GW before it, PP has learned from the success of online retailers that the LGS is actually not so crucial to its marketshare. In fact, the entire retail market has pivoted to online sales. As a publisher, you have the advantage of leveraging some control over supply - so you can use that to cap out potential competitors. This is how GW made their direct business the only business in town, including as it turned out by cutting the LGS out of the picture in significant ways. PP is not going to have as easy a time of it. You may recall how mad people were at GW - but they could do essentially nothing except refuse to stock GW product. This was because GW is its own distributor. Not so with PP. Hence MM being able to stand up to PP. I highly doubt MM's distributor has any interest in losing MM's volume.
For starters - why would PP do this if it didn't affect their bottom line? You are first and foremost overlooking that PP is a business. Next up, how exactly does unilaterally suppressing the competitiveness of online retailers help PP? There are two narratives:
First, there's the one about supporting the LGS: PP needs the LGS as a face-to-face point of sale and community host. The reasoning is, the LGS model grows and maintains PP's marketshare.
Second, there's the one about moving into online sales: Like GW before it, PP has learned from the success of online retailers that the LGS is actually not so crucial to its marketshare. In fact, the entire retail market has pivoted to online sales. As a publisher, you have the advantage of leveraging some control over supply - so you can use that to cap out potential competitors. This is how GW made their direct business the only business in town, including as it turned out by cutting the LGS out of the picture in significant ways. PP is not going to have as easy a time of it. You may recall how mad people were at GW - but they could do essentially nothing except refuse to stock GW product. This was because GW is its own distributor. Not so with PP. Hence MM being able to stand up to PP. I highly doubt MM's distributor has any interest in losing MM's volume.
I wasn't overlooking that they were a business. I was following
narrative 1 and didn't see direct market as a possibility for them
in the future. That would change things, sure. However, I agree
that they would have a hard time of it in this market. There are
just way too many successful games out there for anyone to go
full GW , right?
Or have there been other moves toward the direct market?
Meade wrote: As much as i do support local game stores, I also am addicted to cheap online prices. This is the nature of the free market, if there is a more efficient way of getting goods to the consumer then it will be successful in the end. Gaming at the store is just one slice of many choices that include... a local gaming club that rents space, gaming in my own home or my friends, and attending events. And with cheap online prices i simply have far more stuff to play with and more games to play. If a game store can't afford to sell at a discount, well, they might be better off just providing a space to play and charging for that service, as well as providing food, drinks, etc. All of which I'm happy to pay for, rather than subsidize an inefficient system out of some sense of duty. Or maybe I'm just tired of paying prices higher than MSRP, when I know I could be saving all this money, and feel like I'm donating to a charity when I buy at my local store?
That model for a store has been tried and has failed ( charging to play, food and drinks) because if gamers aren't going to pay full price for product, they won't pay for a table, food or drinks. I've seen it happen time and again. Gamers would leave and go to 7-11 fo $1 hot dogs. This is why pool halls eventually failed...people would rather play at home or a cheap bar than support the pool hall through beer and food purchases.
The greed of gamers always amazes me. They want their toys as cheap as possible, but won't support the venues that provide places to play. The "entitlement" attitude saddens me.
The first game store I worked at 20? 15? years ago used to run Mechwarrior tournaments. Players would order cases from someplace with a 30% discount, then show up and play and win prize money etc from the store...and the store owner was like, why am I supporting other businesses with my tournaments and tables? and Mechwarrior Monday became Magic Monday. The same thing eventually happened with 40K. They eventually dropped the lines because sales were so low.
When I worked in the industry, time and again we saw the same thing happen and heard the same complaints from FLGS's, that they could not compete with online discounters.
malfred wrote: Or have there been other moves toward the direct market?
Zoom out for a moment to the full scope of retail. The cat is out of the bag. We are never going back to a world without online sales or even where online sales matter less than they do now. Miniatures companies know this. If they didn't learn it from online retailers they will have had to take notice of Kickstarter ... which is of course a very advanced form of direct sales. And one that PP has actually already used. Interestingly, some of the more amateurish companies have found themselves better positioned for this reality than companies like PP. Many manufacturers of historical miniatures, for example, have always been primarily responsible for their own distribution. The grandaddy of them all, Games Workshop, is in a similar position thanks to the same reason -- it's old enough to have been built around its own distribution system. PP and its ilk, meanwhile, seem to have been built around third-party distributor models that were probably even outdated at that time (see the vid with Ed Pugh, posted earlier). These guys are caught relying on a failing business partner, the LGS. Obviously, part of PP's answer is to cap out online retailers to shore up the LGS. That's a short term strategy. It can only be short term because, again, the future of sales is online, not in independant, brick'n'mortar retailers (who cannot even afford to carry your whole line). The long term strategy must be to get into online sales. The most cost-intensive but also most profitable way would be a gradual shift to direct, which I will bet is exactly what we will (continue to) see.
General Hobbs wrote: The greed of gamers always amazes me. They want their toys as cheap as possible, but won't support the venues that provide places to play.
LOL that's a good one. We're talking about businesses, which owe their existence to capacity to earn profit, but of course it is the customer who gets called out as greedy. There is nothing even slightly immoral about customers wanting to maximize the value they get out of a transaction. This is exactly what publishers, distributors, and retailers are doing, after all. It is up to the LGS to figure out how to make the brick'n'mortar model competitive -- not the customer.
Thimn wrote: I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.
Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.
So yes I think its a very good thing PP is taking this action.
Why though? If some random FLGS in a city can't manage to compete with online sellers why should rural gamers halfway across the country, or folk from other parts of the world who don't use the FLGS model to support their communities, be forced to pay what amounts to a subsidy to keep that failing business afloat?
The world has moved on, American FLGS can either adapt, or die off - either way, it shouldn't affect the ability of consumers who don't use them to find the best deal they can.
Yeah, damn them! They better get with the times so club-based gamers can buy cheap stuff online!
I assume there's meant to be some kind of reproach/sarcasm there, but essentially you've just restated exactly what my position is and added an exclamation point.
B&M retail cannot and will not survive in its present form; the sooner people accept that the sooner companies will stop enacting futile anti-consumer policies. B&M needs to innovate their business model like everyone else does - ask the music industry how regressive protectionism worked for them - and if they can't they don't deserve to continue operating. It's blunt, but that's the system - it's always a source of great amusement to me that an anti-capitalist has to keep reminding folk how capitalist markets are supposed to work.
If you want your FLGS to continue operating if they can't make enough from sales, persuade its owners and customers that paying a reasonable fee for table use is the right thing to do, but don't pretend that demanding gamers who don't even live in the same sodding country as you, let alone ones who just don't use the store, pay more to support a business model that's no longer fit-for-purpose is somehow the reasonable, rational position. That, if anything, is "entitlement", not consumers wanting to find the best deal they can.
That model for a store has been tried and has failed ( charging to play, food and drinks) because if gamers aren't going to pay full price for product, they won't pay for a table, food or drinks. I've seen it happen time and again. Gamers would leave and go to 7-11 fo $1 hot dogs. This is why pool halls eventually failed...people would rather play at home or a cheap bar than support the pool hall through beer and food purchases.
The greed of gamers always amazes me. They want their toys as cheap as possible, but won't support the venues that provide places to play. The "entitlement" attitude saddens me.
You understand that comments like this make you look ridiculous considering it's being proved wrong every week of the year in the UK & Europe and has been for decades, yeah? Clubs are not free, people either pay a membership or they pay-to-play every time they show up - I seriously doubt American gamers are so uniquely "greedy" and "entitled" that a similar model can't work in stores, or if it genuinely can't that they would rather let their local communities die than set up a club of their own elsewhere.
Meade wrote: ...Hell, i can even play xwing at my local starbucks. it's not hard.
As a reformed game evangelist, I will say that this may be just a slight bit harder than 'not hard'.
But I would seriously love to see photos of X-Wing being played at Starbucks especially if you can get multiple games going.
If you/your family happen to own said Starbucks, points will obviously have to be deducted.
Ok fair enough, Well kind of like a starbucks (starbucks coffee), but technically a barnes and nobles. Of course they also do sell the product in their store... all you have to do is buy some coffee and ask nicely they will let you play. Does that qualify as 'hard'? I've done it several times in two separate locations. multiple games, well if you took over the entire store maybe, but i guess that depends on the location and how busy they are.
Meade wrote: ...Hell, i can even play xwing at my local starbucks. it's not hard.
As a reformed game evangelist, I will say that this may be just a slight bit harder than 'not hard'.
But I would seriously love to see photos of X-Wing being played at Starbucks especially if you can get multiple games going.
If you/your family happen to own said Starbucks, points will obviously have to be deducted.
Ok fair enough, Well kind of like a starbucks (starbucks coffee), but technically a barnes and nobles. Of course they also do sell the product in their store... all you have to do is buy some coffee and ask nicely they will let you play. Does that qualify as 'hard'? I've done it several times in two separate locations. multiple games, well if you took over the entire store maybe, but i guess that depends on the location and how busy they are.
So kind of like a Starbucks in that they sell Starbucks coffee, but also a large chain book store that sells the product you're playing there
Like I said earlier, a lot of bookshops went under, and Amazon got blamed, but the good bookshops thrived, and offer things that the big boys could never offer.
If FLGS want to survive they could:
Run painting and terrain tutorials.
Run tournaments and events (which most do)
Sell food (which most probably do)
Invite games designers over for events, just like bookshops do with authors.
Run a co-op movement with other stores in their area. If don't know if this could work, but if stores are struggling to sell an entire range of minis, perhaps store A could stock X, and Store B could stop Y.
There are a ton of good ideas out there to let FLGS thrive.
That model for a store has been tried and has failed ( charging to play, food and drinks) because if gamers aren't going to pay full price for product, they won't pay for a table, food or drinks. I've seen it happen time and again. Gamers would leave and go to 7-11 fo $1 hot dogs. This is why pool halls eventually failed...people would rather play at home or a cheap bar than support the pool hall through beer and food purchases.
The greed of gamers always amazes me. They want their toys as cheap as possible, but won't support the venues that provide places to play. The "entitlement" attitude saddens me.
You understand that comments like this make you look ridiculous considering it's being proved wrong every week of the year in the UK & Europe and has been for decades, yeah? Clubs are not free, people either pay a membership or they pay-to-play every time they show up - I seriously doubt American gamers are so uniquely "greedy" and "entitled" that a similar model can't work in stores, or if it genuinely can't that they would rather let their local communities die than set up a club of their own elsewhere.
You may recall that the US was founded by not wanting to pay taxes, the only one of which that was actually being enforced was levied as a response to a costly war prompted by the colonists doing the exactly what their colonial overlords told them not to do. So yeah, the US has an odd relationship with the "tax" or "fee" concepts as a cultural thing. Also probably "accountability" can be tossed in there, but I find that's just a general human thing.
Back on topic, that's only shifting the "can't compete" bar elsewhere; now instead of being unable to compete with online retailers they can't compete with local convenience stores where I can buy a 64oz. soda for $2 versus even $.50 for a 12oz. can; that's still ugly consumer math and banning outside food/drink is going to be unpopular and selling non-packaged snacks (e.g. - hot dogs or the like) could entail getting a restaurant license in some localities. Most of the game stores I can think of are within easy walking distance of either a convenience store or a supermarket, so from my own anecdata it would appear that concession sales are unlikely to keep anything afloat here because that's already a crowded marketplace; it's a nice supplementary money stream but it's not going to be able to support much (though it's an indictment that many stores don't even look for the minor revenue bump). I'm not sure if the environment in the UK/Europe is radically different there, most of my international travels have been within the Western Hemisphere.
So too would be paying for table space; it used to be free and now it isn't? Bollocks to that! IF it was accompanied by a drop in product price in-store, it might have a chance but it's doubtful that every manufacturer would agree to that. I know I personally stopped shopping at store because they had such a policy and would not even let you in the room with the tables if you weren't a member. Sure, there's a world where it makes sense, but in 2001 when selling GW at full MSRP and the fee was fairly high (I recall thinking that was a couple of boxes of troops), it really just encouraged me to not shop there at all as I'd rather have my own table, my own terrain and my own food/drink. Granted, I'm far more of a collector than I am a gamer, so others would clearly view it differently. However, it'd be a massive amount of marketing to make that change palatable, and I think the general consensus is many LGS struggle at that so I can understand their unwillingness.
As you say though, the world marches on regardless, and the genie isn't going to go back into the bottle any time soon.
That model for a store has been tried and has failed ( charging to play, food and drinks) because if gamers aren't going to pay full price for product, they won't pay for a table, food or drinks. I've seen it happen time and again. Gamers would leave and go to 7-11 fo $1 hot dogs. This is why pool halls eventually failed...people would rather play at home or a cheap bar than support the pool hall through beer and food purchases.
The greed of gamers always amazes me. They want their toys as cheap as possible, but won't support the venues that provide places to play. The "entitlement" attitude saddens me.
The first game store I worked at 20? 15? years ago used to run Mechwarrior tournaments. Players would order cases from someplace with a 30% discount, then show up and play and win prize money etc from the store...and the store owner was like, why am I supporting other businesses with my tournaments and tables? and Mechwarrior Monday became Magic Monday. The same thing eventually happened with 40K. They eventually dropped the lines because sales were so low.
When I worked in the industry, time and again we saw the same thing happen and heard the same complaints from FLGS's, that they could not compete with online discounters.
Well, you make a good argument man! Gamers are entitled, greedy and selfish, so what? they will lose their FLGS. Again, won't be the end of the world. If my FLGS went out of business tomorrow I would still be able to get in more games than i really have time for. Find a group of gamers, pay for a space to have a club, or do it in your homes.
Asking gamers to treat a business like it's a charity, and telling them they have a duty to patronize it, is perhaps a noble idea, but it will ultimately fail. Companies can prop up those retailers by using the inquisition to ferret out who is selling discounted online, but that will ultimately fail too because the one game company that does will be a cheaper more accessible game, and people will always find a way around it.
That model for a store has been tried and has failed ( charging to play, food and drinks) because if gamers aren't going to pay full price for product, they won't pay for a table, food or drinks. I've seen it happen time and again. Gamers would leave and go to 7-11 fo $1 hot dogs. This is why pool halls eventually failed...people would rather play at home or a cheap bar than support the pool hall through beer and food purchases.
The greed of gamers always amazes me. They want their toys as cheap as possible, but won't support the venues that provide places to play. The "entitlement" attitude saddens me.
You understand that comments like this make you look ridiculous considering it's being proved wrong every week of the year in the UK & Europe and has been for decades, yeah? Clubs are not free, people either pay a membership or they pay-to-play every time they show up - I seriously doubt American gamers are so uniquely "greedy" and "entitled" that a similar model can't work in stores, or if it genuinely can't that they would rather let their local communities die than set up a club of their own elsewhere.
You may recall that the US was founded by not wanting to pay taxes, the only one of which that was actually being enforced was levied as a response to a costly war prompted by the colonists doing the exactly what their colonial overlords told them not to do. So yeah, the US has an odd relationship with the "tax" or "fee" concepts as a cultural thing. Also probably "accountability" can be tossed in there, but I find that's just a general human thing.
Back on topic, that's only shifting the "can't compete" bar elsewhere; now instead of being unable to compete with online retailers they can't compete with local convenience stores where I can buy a 64oz. soda for $2 versus even $.50 for a 12oz. can; that's still ugly consumer math and banning outside food/drink is going to be unpopular and selling non-packaged snacks (e.g. - hot dogs or the like) could entail getting a restaurant license in some localities. Most of the game stores I can think of are within easy walking distance of either a convenience store or a supermarket, so from my own anecdata it would appear that concession sales are unlikely to keep anything afloat here because that's already a crowded marketplace; it's a nice supplementary money stream but it's not going to be able to support much (though it's an indictment that many stores don't even look for the minor revenue bump). I'm not sure if the environment in the UK/Europe is radically different there, most of my international travels have been within the Western Hemisphere.
So too would be paying for table space; it used to be free and now it isn't? Bollocks to that! IF it was accompanied by a drop in product price in-store, it might have a chance but it's doubtful that every manufacturer would agree to that. I know I personally stopped shopping at store because they had such a policy and would not even let you in the room with the tables if you weren't a member. Sure, there's a world where it makes sense, but in 2001 when selling GW at full MSRP and the fee was fairly high (I recall thinking that was a couple of boxes of troops), it really just encouraged me to not shop there at all as I'd rather have my own table, my own terrain and my own food/drink. Granted, I'm far more of a collector than I am a gamer, so others would clearly view it differently. However, it'd be a massive amount of marketing to make that change palatable, and I think the general consensus is many LGS struggle at that so I can understand their unwillingness.
As you say though, the world marches on regardless, and the genie isn't going to go back into the bottle any time soon.
In my experience, a lot of FLGS operate with a common courtesy rule. For example, you turn up for a game at a FLGS, but don't buy anything.
You get your game, but the owner still has his bills to pay. In this situation, most people are happy to hand over 1-2 dollars to help the store owner.
Seems very reasonable. Personally, I would feel bad if I turned up, had a game, but contributed zero to the store owner.
To be honest my FLGS, when I can get to it, is basically for paint and impulse purchases of $50 or less. Anything more and I just order it online.
That said if I go in for a game/event or what have you then I normally wind up spending around $20 at the store outside of the entry fee as a thank you for hosting whatever it is I'm attending.
Well, you make a good argument man! Gamers are entitled, greedy and selfish, so what? they will lose their FLGS. Again, won't be the end of the world. If my FLGS went out of business tomorrow I would still be able to get in more games than i really have time for. Find a group of gamers, pay for a space to have a club, or do it in your homes.
Asking gamers to treat a business like it's a charity, and telling them they have a duty to patronize it, is perhaps a noble idea, but it will ultimately fail. Companies can prop up those retailers by using the inquisition to ferret out who is selling discounted online, but that will ultimately fail too because the one game company that does will be a cheaper more accessible game, and people will always find a way around it.
If all the LGS in town closed down I don't think there would be any place left to play. The LGS in the area has been open for so long that gaming clubs outside the store never became a thing, and there's just no affordable meeting space for clubs. The clubs that do exist generally have to work on the "Charity" model. Nobody will pay dues, so they have to rely on meeting at a local restaurant or related store where they're expected to buy something at every meeting to justify the club being allowed to use the space.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Like I said earlier, a lot of bookshops went under, and Amazon got blamed, but the good bookshops thrived, and offer things that the big boys could never offer.
If FLGS want to survive they could:
Run painting and terrain tutorials.
Run tournaments and events (which most do)
Sell food (which most probably do)
Invite games designers over for events, just like bookshops do with authors.
Run a co-op movement with other stores in their area. If don't know if this could work, but if stores are struggling to sell an entire range of minis, perhaps store A could stock X, and Store B could stop Y.
There are a ton of good ideas out there to let FLGS thrive.
My game store does all of this except the painting and terrain tutorials. However, I pop in and paint on miniature gaming days, and have a lot of ogling over my paint jobs and I explain how I do them. So...maybe that counts?
Anyway, I pay in my store, because he has that kind of community. We have multiple game designers who are regulars, including the guy who made Nevermore and Cuthroat Caverns over at Smirk and Dagger Games. So yeah, my store is definitely one of the ones "doing it right". And when the owner found he couldn't get discounts to get the Knight Models Marvel game line, he sent me online for faster and less expensive results. My store rocks. It's one that's worth supporting.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: In my experience, a lot of FLGS operate with a common courtesy rule. For example, you turn up for a game at a FLGS, but don't buy anything.
You get your game, but the owner still has his bills to pay. In this situation, most people are happy to hand over 1-2 dollars to help the store owner.
Seems very reasonable. Personally, I would feel bad if I turned up, had a game, but contributed zero to the store owner.
Indeed, when I actually gamed in a store, I would typically buy something. During a special event, it would often be a big something. Common courtesy is a lot like common sense though; if it were actually common we wouldn't have nearly as many problems in the world.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: In my experience, a lot of FLGS operate with a common courtesy rule. For example, you turn up for a game at a FLGS, but don't buy anything.
You get your game, but the owner still has his bills to pay. In this situation, most people are happy to hand over 1-2 dollars to help the store owner.
Seems very reasonable. Personally, I would feel bad if I turned up, had a game, but contributed zero to the store owner.
Indeed, when I actually gamed in a store, I would typically buy something. During a special event, it would often be a big something. Common courtesy is a lot like common sense though; if it were actually common we wouldn't have nearly as many problems in the world.
True words. I never felt the need to splash out big time whenever I had a game at a store, but a few dollars here and there never hurt, and for the store owner, cash in hand, probably doesn't count towards his tax bill. It's a win win for all
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Like I said earlier, a lot of bookshops went under, and Amazon got blamed, but the good bookshops thrived, and offer things that the big boys could never offer.
If FLGS want to survive they could:
Run painting and terrain tutorials.
Run tournaments and events (which most do)
Sell food (which most probably do)
Invite games designers over for events, just like bookshops do with authors.
Run a co-op movement with other stores in their area. If don't know if this could work, but if stores are struggling to sell an entire range of minis, perhaps store A could stock X, and Store B could stop Y.
There are a ton of good ideas out there to let FLGS thrive.
My game store does all of this except the painting and terrain tutorials. However, I pop in and paint on miniature gaming days, and have a lot of ogling over my paint jobs and I explain how I do them. So...maybe that counts?
Anyway, I pay in my store, because he has that kind of community. We have multiple game designers who are regulars, including the guy who made Nevermore and Cuthroat Caverns over at Smirk and Dagger Games. So yeah, my store is definitely one of the ones "doing it right". And when the owner found he couldn't get discounts to get the Knight Models Marvel game line, he sent me online for faster and less expensive results. My store rocks. It's one that's worth supporting.
Sounds like a pretty good store, and one which will thrive and prosper for a long time by the sounds of things.
Rainyday wrote: . The LGS in the area has been open for so long that gaming clubs outside the store never became a thing, and there's just no affordable meeting space for clubs.
Within a month a club will have been started and a suitable meeting space will have been found because if this doesn't happen no one will be playing games (outside of close friends in their houses). Some people may give up but others will forge ahead and eventually bring back some of the people who gave up and new gamers will start to be attracted through social media and suddenly the lack of the local shop no longer matters.
If there is a sufficiently large gaming population to support a shop it can definitely support a club.
Here's how the concept of a game store can change. These guys ran a kickstarter then opened a gaming area in my area. They have several ways to pay for the time and space that you take (membership, snacks, soft drinks and beer, sale of board games). You pay a fee and have access to a large number of board/tabletop games. I don't know how successful they are/will continue to be but it's an interesting spin on the tired old idea of (F)LGS.
This comment from privateer press is ignorant and makes no sense.
Miniature Market has online sales, bit is also a physical brick and mortar FLGS where people can purchase product and play.
Their online sales are discounted versus their store sales because online sales have lower overhead...but they are going to a brick and mortar store that has people playing their game at the stores location, so the whole comment about little meaning contact with the audience as well as every other comment is pointless and painfully ignorant.
They are a brick and mortar store, you can buy online from them at a discount or in the store. You can opt to pick up your online purchases at their store even. It is there decision to sell items at the prices they do. Every comment from PP about them being a parasitic online retailer only is incorrect.
That some LGS cannot sale product when online sales can shows that the product costs too much, or rather the LGS are bad at business.
Cost of these products is relatively high, if there is a channel where you can purchase product at a discount many people will buy from that channel to some % of their purchases. LGS that offer discounts will see increase profits from increased sales if they can make it worthwhile to buy product from them. An example, Legions Games in Pittsburgh, PA offers 20% if you pre order new release items. This puts them in the range of online retailers for the price, so they generate a lot of business by selling pre orders then get people who decide to impulse buy something at normal MSRP while they are making said pre-order or picking it up. I have seen other stores do similar models. Some stores offer monthly coupons that let people get a box set at 20% off, you again get people in to buy said box set and there is a good chance they will pick up something else on impulse.
Most LGS are bad at business, and many people who are online retailers are actually good at business. The problem isn't the online retailers, its the LGS that do not know how to create a profit stream off an over priced product. Which of course can be tied back to the cost of the product.
I skimmed through the thread and didn't see this thought. Apologies if this has been rehashed over and over.
I tend to purchase online and play almost exclusively with friends at our places. We have several FLGSs within easy driving range. Why would I possibly want to pay 20-50% more for a product in a store if I'm not planning on taking advantage of any of their value add services. The only reason I'd pay more is if I need the product TODAY and then I'm really paying extra for the convenience and short acquisition time.
In other words... why shouldn't the online retailers be cheaper? They're providing a lesser product. A $50 product at an FLGS comes with hobby advice, gaming tables, a gaming community, etc... and you get it NOW. All of these things have value. Charging that same $50 for the same product online, but without all the free extras makes for a much worse value proposition. The online retailers wouldn't be able to compete.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As long as people who order online don't complain if the FLGS they play at shuts down.
Lots of us don't play in stores though! I'm primarily a hobbyist/painter, and not a tournament player. The odd game a month I play is going to be in my home.
privateer4hire wrote: Honestly, I don't think OLGS-only buyers and FLGS customers can be reconciled on this. As long as OLGS can sell at maximum discount, that's all that matters. After all, OLGS is sticking up for the poor old consumer. That's their sole concern with their practices.
This is the same line of logic that people use when they dismiss FLGS customers/FLGSs.
I can be reconciled easily. I buy more stuff from the FLGS than from online, but I have reasons for loyalty to both. The FLGS is great for browsing, asking questions, seeing new games and products and for making impulse purchases, like Bones, WGF boxes, blisters or local clearance. MM and deep dis counters give me the opportunity to buy games that are either risky unknowns or definitely not worth their asking price, and I know my order will be shipped quickly with any problems taken care of with utmost professionalism. Either way, the service I receive is what keeps me coming back with the percentage of discount only determining which locations I purchase specific items.
Privateer Press is clearly trying to screw me over as a customer by removing my option to buy their products at a reasonable price.
The problem I have with this, and the FFG one, and the original one done by GW (anyone remember before they started this when you could get Games Workshop online for 40%? Pepperidge Farm Remembers....) is that they use the FLGS cop out to explain their issues away. I rarely game at any of my LGS (LGS instead of FLGS because several are just not friendly) because we have gaming groups and play a lot at libraries churches and friends houses. I have personally seen at least 4 LGS close in the last 10 years I've lived here, and the constant explosion of newer, more expensive gaming stores always trying something new, ala http://lootandxp.com/ (process that did not work for another store in the area). Locally, I'm not used to discounts because they don't exist, in fact many stores charge 105% of MSRP. I still buy quite a few items locally because I can be a compulsive buyer, but our tournament scene is not usually 5$ or even 10$, more often it's 15$-20$ for monthly tournaments with little to no prizes. I see no reason to support these stores so if I can plan ahead I buy online, usually at a discount. In the current explosion of games and awesome miniatures being produced right now, I see no reason to continue to support what is quickly turning into another Games Workshop. If any of our flgs wanted to drum up business, they would either get better customer service or discount in store, none of which do the latter, and few of which does the former. For things like X-wing, I can just wait for a coupon to Barnes & Noble which lets me get ships for 30-35% off any ways.
As far as Warmahordes go, there are so many great games and miniatures up and coming right now, it just means we switch to another game. They certainly didn't have any markets cornered.
Kriswall wrote: Apologies if this has been rehashed over and over.
Apology accepted. Suffice it to say, many of us are not happy with publishers passing on the cost to us, folks who do not play at the LGS, of using the LGS as a marketing touch point .
Meade wrote: ...Hell, i can even play xwing at my local starbucks. it's not hard.
As a reformed game evangelist, I will say that this may be just a slight bit harder than 'not hard'.
But I would seriously love to see photos of X-Wing being played at Starbucks especially if you can get multiple games going.
If you/your family happen to own said Starbucks, points will obviously have to be deducted.
Ok fair enough, Well kind of like a starbucks (starbucks coffee), but technically a barnes and nobles. Of course they also do sell the product in their store... all you have to do is buy some coffee and ask nicely they will let you play. Does that qualify as 'hard'? I've done it several times in two separate locations. multiple games, well if you took over the entire store maybe, but i guess that depends on the location and how busy they are.
Privateer was being silly. People play board games all the time in Starbucks or especially in big book stores. My Borders used to host Scrabble tournaments every week even though we didn't sell scrabble. Customers who spend a few hours in a cafe are statistically guaranteed to buy something, and if they start bringing friends to your store or your cafe, all the better.
I've seen people play MtG and DnD board games in fast food establishments, parks and all kinds of places. Why would anyone think X-Wing is magically difficult to play on a large table (or two stalls pushed together)?
Meade wrote: ...Hell, i can even play xwing at my local starbucks. it's not hard.
As a reformed game evangelist, I will say that this may be just a slight bit harder than 'not hard'.
But I would seriously love to see photos of X-Wing being played at Starbucks especially if you can get multiple games going.
If you/your family happen to own said Starbucks, points will obviously have to be deducted.
Ok fair enough, Well kind of like a starbucks (starbucks coffee), but technically a barnes and nobles. Of course they also do sell the product in their store... all you have to do is buy some coffee and ask nicely they will let you play. Does that qualify as 'hard'? I've done it several times in two separate locations. multiple games, well if you took over the entire store maybe, but i guess that depends on the location and how busy they are.
Privateer was being silly. People play board games all the time in Starbucks or especially in big book stores. My Borders used to host Scrabble tournaments every week even though we didn't sell scrabble. Customers who spend a few hours in a cafe are statistically guaranteed to buy something, and if they start bringing friends to your store or your cafe, all the better.
I've seen people play MtG and DnD board games in fast food establishments, parks and all kinds of places. Why would anyone think X-Wing is magically difficult to play on a large table (or two stalls pushed together)?
Local area boardgame club has weekly meetings on a given weeknight at Denny's (restaurant) and Dave and Buster's with not only the blessing but the encouragement of management.
I know a large number of people who would not bat an eye if all of the LGSs in the area were close shop tomorrow. I'm not saying that they should go away but it does seem to be a dying model of business that needs to be refreshed or innovated in some way. People and society are different from when I was a kid in the 80s and there seems to be less reliance on a dedicated game venue rather than, as others have mentioned, the plethora of free alternatives out there.
Manchu wrote: I have played a board game (specifically, go) at Starbucks on multiple occasions. No hassle at all.
Hell, there was a group playing Eldritch Horror at our Buffalo Wild Wings last night.
I've kind of wondered why more game stores arent more set up like pool halls. $5/hour, get your table fee in credit or something like that. Liquor seems more profitable than dice anyways. Insert obligatory blackjack and hookers meme.
I know a large number of people who would not bat an eye if all of the LGSs in the area were close shop tomorrow. I'm not saying that they should go away but it does seem to be a dying model of business that needs to be refreshed or innovated in some way. People and society are different from when I was a kid in the 80s and there seems to be less reliance on a dedicated game venue rather than, as others have mentioned, the plethora of free alternatives out there.
Thats a good point too. In the older culture, you used to want to support a FLGS not only because you wanted a place to play games, but a neighbourhood place to go and get your stuff and browse. Now, that method is completely inefficient. With the dizzying array of games and gamer products out there, kickstarters, and gamers who usually buy only the latest shiniest thing, you have to really be on top of things to keep everything stocked and all the people happy. All this when we can easily get it online cheaper in the comfort of our own homes. The system just needs to evolve. I have a feeling that most gamers if they simply add up the extra amount of money they spend at the local store (vs online discount) and pool it, it would be more than enough to pay the rent one night a week at a local community center or something. My club's dues are 100 a year, with extra perks.
Where I grew up in Georgia, there was a country store. It sold hunting gear, fishing gear, I think ATV accessories, that type of thing. The son of the owner was in his early 20s and got his dad to give him a counter for sports cards and more importantly M:TG. He had no space for playing but his dad also owned a Shoney's in town. Once or twice a week he would set aside the entire back area that's for parties and gatherings and things and we'd have these massive events.
Because of the military, I've lived in a lot of places over the years. An awesome gaming store with a few locations in Virginia is the only other place I've ever seen go that far for customers. I watched Atlantis Games and Comics go from one store in Portsmouth to 3 locations before I moved away. They had tons of events, focused on the customers, offered the ability to buy snacks in store, had discounts for club members (a fairly cheap club too). Most of all, the owner cared. He was a gamer too and he knew the names of most of the people in either of the shops I went to at any given time.
DrNo172000 wrote: I personally do not buy into the narrative that an LGS can't change it's model to a successful one that can compete in a fast growing market. If an LGS says it has a poor margin on PP products they are either lying through their teeth or have poor distributors. Most major distributors I know of give somewhere in the ballpark of 47-50% of cost on goods. That means close to a 100% markup at retail price. If you are savvy about events, demos, customer loyalty programs, and the rest of your overhead you can very easily sell these items at 20-30% off. And generally as price goes down volume goes up. So what's stopping an LGS that has received a bump in volume due to price decrease from expanding to online sells, even if you didn't want to go full tilt an Amazon or eBay store is easy and doesn't require you to have a professional webstore. No I agree with others who have said that LGSs need to adapt.
You realize that paying 45%-50% of the sales price is a terrible margin in retail, right? Especially with a product that requires a lot of inventory like large miniature lines.
That's the whole problem with games stores in the US- they are trying to sell a niche product that requires tons of support and has poor margins. It's the same issue with comics. It's why many stores turn to CCGS- less inventory problem, better turnover of product, etc.
I don't know that the game club model is nearly as practical in the US as in the UK/Europe. It is what war/miniature gaming mostly was in the 70s-80s, and it was a very limited niche hobby. Stores served as a central focal point for gamers and an access point for non-gamers. Having lots of glass with peculiar curious and banners draws in new customers. Events/game nights/etc. reinforce the hobby and provide socialization. Online sales doesn't do any of that. It's kind of like golfing- you need to play somewhere and if the courses can't make any money, they close. Good luck getting municipal game tables, though!
The future of hobby gaming is largely CCGs and CMGs, if sales trends indicate anything. Miniatures and RPGs will remain, but I expect that miniatures will backslide with sales reverting largely to direct order, while RPGs are cheap enough and easily produced that they will continue to grow. I really feel sorry for most FLGS or those who want to open a game store. If you want to make any money, almost any other kind of retail is better.
I don't know that the game club model is nearly as practical in the US as in the UK/Europe.
Despite the several people in here from the US who apparently manage it just fine?
It is what war/miniature gaming mostly was in the 70s-80s, and it was a very limited niche hobby.
I'm fairly sure the internet didn't exist for most people in the 70's and 80's, and certainly not with the utter ubiquity it does now. It has literally never been easier for niche-nerds of any persuasion to find each other and arrange events, and it wasn't the FLGS model that achieved that.
Stores served as a central focal point for gamers and an access point for non-gamers. Having lots of glass with peculiar curious and banners draws in new customers. Events/game nights/etc. reinforce the hobby and provide socialization. Online sales doesn't do any of that. It's kind of like golfing- you need to play somewhere and if the courses can't make any money, they close. Good luck getting municipal game tables, though!
And again, that's lovely, but even if we take the idea at face-value(and for my money, the continued utility of many of those points is arguable); why should rural Americans who don't play at a store because there isn't one, or kids who play at a school club, or gamers who meet at a library or a bar or each others' homes, or even gamers from another continent who've got nothing to do with American FLGS - why should they be expected to pay more to support businesses they make no use of?
Yodhrin: I am not saying they should. In fact, my point was that they probably won't. I am agreeing that for the most part, game stores that rely heavily on traditional miniature games will not be viable. But I also believe that there will be contraction in miniature wargaming as a result of that and other factors (many endemic to miniature wargaming).
Silent Puffin?: Que? Yes, UK clubs seem to have an easier time locating suitable space. And the UK doesn't suffer from the same sprawl issues as much of the US. Hence why I do not think the club model is as practical in the US. Also see my previous point that there was a club model in the US, and it never really expanded much. But there certainly will be some clubs that are successful. And maybe the Interwebs will help some. Still see a lot of inherent obstacles to bringing new players in....
Silent Puffin?: Que? Yes, UK clubs seem to have an easier time locating suitable space.
I have been to clubs in schools, libraries, veterans/servicemans clubs, community centres, pubs, above a restaurant and even in a garage/workshop. I strongly suspect that space is easier to find than you think and that at least 1 member of a potential club will have contacts to locate some space if you cant find anything publicly available.
The internet has made it trivially easy to find local gamers (provided that they have an online presence of course), that's how I found my local club.
Someone justify why I should drive 20 miles (each way) to the only gaming store of two in the 50+ mile radius area (maybe more) that sells wargame models, which has nowhere to play (it's just a Riders hobby store, with rc cars and model trains) and just a guy or two at the counter. No one helps you or is in any way enthusiastic about the games they carry, stock is just on the shelves for a gamer to browse, buy and leave. It's a wargame version of Barnes and Noble.
The other store is 20 miles the other way from me, which at least near my work, but the only wargaming models they carry are clix games, and Star Wars Armada/X-Wing. Otherwise they are into boardgames and Magic. I love boardgames and FFG games, but I also paint models for 20 years.
Silent Puffin?: Que? Yes, UK clubs seem to have an easier time locating suitable space. And the UK doesn't suffer from the same sprawl issues as much of the US. Hence why I do not think the club model is as practical in the US. Also see my previous point that there was a club model in the US, and it never really expanded much. But there certainly will be some clubs that are successful. And maybe the Interwebs will help some. Still see a lot of inherent obstacles to bringing new players in....
List of places, even in the armpit of the country where I live, for free or cheap gaming space:
1. Library
2. Community center
3. Churches
4. Restaurants/Coffee shop/bar
5. Public schools are required to provide free space for the community to meet though you may pay a small cleaning fee. The football stadium for the local high schools costs like $50 for the entire day (since you're only paying for the janitor to clean when you're done).
New blood?
1. Play something interesting and people will stop and ask about it or even join in (have had this happen several times).
2. Make a Facebook page for your group (that's how I found the clubs in my area).
3. Put something on the local, community bulletin board.
Manchu wrote: I would say that we in the US are simply not used to looking for game space rather than it not being available.
There is also geographical factors at play as well. The UK is one of the most densely populated countries in the world, so you're never far away from an urban centre = clubs and games space.
By comparison, some of your states are about the size of the UK or bigger, but without the population, so it could be a long drive for you guys to get to a club or store.
Don't underestimate the role a store can play in providing a focal point to a gaming community.
I'm talking from experience here, and it is really hard to maintain a club unless it has a focus on one particular game or collection of games.
We have one night a week to play at my club, and I see the same things happen -
Scenario 1: Someone turns up looking for game X, but there's either nobody else looking for that game, or there's an odd number of players and that player misses out.
Player goes home "empty handed" (despite best efforts, this simply happens sometimes.) Player tries again the next week, perhaps with a different game or perhaps the same one, and gets disappointed again, or their opponent they think they've lined up can't make it etc etc.
After few weeks, player just gives up.
Scenario 2: System X is really popular, has a core of players paying enthusiastically and as a consequence begins to attract interest and gain momentum. The players who were the key drivers of interest move on to other systems, or fall victim to real life and don't play so often/anymore. System X has interest, but nobody actually plays it anymore.
All this results from the opportunity cost of a weekly club, there's seldom time to play multiple games in one evening, so something has to give, even if you're interested in more than one game.
One game emerges as dominant, the others fragment into smaller groups that start to go stale, and either people hitch their wagon to the "main" game or go off and find other interests.
Clubs, I'm sure, in large urban areas with the numbers to support strong communities (not huge, say 10+ players for any given system) are great, but in a more rural setting in a more sparsely populated area, maintaining a vibrant and varied gaming community is tough, even if there are theoretically the numbers to support one.
A store, being a fixed location available every day, can easily support multiple systems across different days, allowing people to overlap, not to choose between Warmachine, Magic or X Wing on their one evening of gaming a week, they can, if they choose to, play all three on different days.
I'd kill for a proper Indy (rather than a GW broom cupboard) in the nearest town, I think it would be a huge positive for the whole tabletop gaming crowd, assuming it was done right.
In VA, there are a good number of people willing to drive 45 min or more for a game. As the state gets bigger, the people seem to mind driving less. Driving 45 min is a big deal in Central Virginia. Driving 2.5 hours is no big deal in South Texas. Also we have club culture already. You can find chess clubs and even niche board game clubs (like for ASL, for example). But miniature gaming clubs are more rare. So one reason for that is obviously that miniature gaming is not such a prolific hobby (although it is more prolific than ASL!). But maybe the LGS model has also stymied the development of clubs. What you tend to find IME is people who play mostly in stores with anyone else who plays in stores and then on the other hand people who play mostly with a group of friends in their houses. The latter is pretty much a club, just minus dues and an official structure (because it has no official business or expenses).
@Azrael13
The exact problems you describe happen at the LGS, too.
Manchu wrote: I would say that we in the US are simply not used to looking for game space rather than it not being available.
That is likely closer to the truth. Especially since the culture still largely supports LGS meet ups.
Still, many of the venues suggested don't seem really viable for miniature games. A restaurant/coffee shop/bar? No way. Maybe for board games or card games, but most of those places do not have tables large enough to support even the smaller footprint miniature games, and likely wouldn't want gamers with their armies inside rolling dice and causing a scene. Never mind the potential for offending people with the nature of the games or the aesthetic of certain models used in those games.
Libraries? I know they range in size from city to city, but the ones near me aren't that large, and even the ones that do have private rooms still don't allow raucous behavior or excessive amounts of noise. They are libraries after all.
Personally, it seems like the best location for a club outside of a community center is a private residence. That still comes with problems, though, especially in terms of recruitment.
The exact problems you describe happen at the LGS, too.
But there's far more opportunities to game, and therefore far less conflicts. I'd probably play Warmachine, at least in a small way, likely Infinity too, if it didn't mean that it'd cut into my X Wing gaming time. I know others that come to the club that feel differently but with different system priorities.
Then there's the variety of board games, LCGs etc that interest me, but I just don't have the gaming time available to warrant the investment.
We had a LGS in the past, the owner did very well, so well in fact that he decided to close it down to follow some of his other personal dreams, so I know it works. Games and communities may go stale and die, but at least people who want to play aren't sacrificing playing one game they want to play because it means missing out on another.
So they probably have an annex. My current club is based in a primary school annex/community room thing that is also used by girl guides and other such groups.
All you really need is a large empty room with somewhere to store tables.
Scenario 1: Someone turns up looking for game X, but there's either nobody else looking for that game, or there's an odd number of players and that player misses out.
Player goes home "empty handed" (despite best efforts, this simply happens sometimes.) Player tries again the next week, perhaps with a different game or perhaps the same one, and gets disappointed again, or their opponent they think they've lined up can't make it etc etc.
After few weeks, player just gives up.
Scenario 2: System X is really popular, has a core of players paying enthusiastically and as a consequence begins to attract interest and gain momentum. The players who were the key drivers of interest move on to other systems, or fall victim to real life and don't play so often/anymore. System X has interest, but nobody actually plays it anymore.
Scenario 1 is solved by using facebook (or some other suitable method) to prearrange games.
Scenario 2 just seems to be one of the regular cycles that all gaming groups seem to have.
Have you seriously tried organising anything via Facebook?
It's like herding cats. There's several guys attend my club who absolutely refuse to engage in any social media of any sort. Some of them proudly so. There's also guys who simply aren't in that sort of demographic, they're approaching retirement age and it really isn't how they're wired.
Then factor in Facebook's weird prioritisation algorithms which means an important message gets shown to 12 people, and something largely incidental gets views in 3 figures and non peer to peer comms are nowhere near as straightforward as "just use Facebook."
Systems rise and fall, God knows I've seen enough do that in the last 20 odd years, but I'm not just talking about dying systems, I'm talking about people losing out on lifts, or who rely on public transport etc.. as many publicly available spaces aren't necessarily located centrally (again, speaking from a relatively rural perspective.) We use a community hall on a supermarket complex on the edge of town for instance, it's a bus ride from the bus station. This limits access to those without cars. I'm currently scouting other, more central, locations, but realistically the in town ones are often too small. When people were enthusiastic for other systems (Infinity would have been the best one locally) they were offering lifts to other players to get games in etc.
I appreciate a lot of this is specifically personal to me, but you can probably interchange different specific challenges for a whole load of other clubs and get a similar outcome ie unless you're blessed with a significant population, running a club is a challenge and it isn't the one size fits all solution to no FLGS that it perhaps is made out to be.
Not all do, no. Again, I mentioned that many of the libraries near me are small. The one closest to my house is a single building affair, while a larger one a city over has private study rooms but no annex.
Facebook was made by the CIA. To not skip a beat they even paid for the £200 million fantasy movie called "The Social Network" where their involvement was air brushed out. (Read: removed)
And people think if you think it was the CIA it was a conspiracy.
Gotta love the retconning of history.
I've been in Security Software Venture Capital meetings in the USA where three quarters of the investors round the table were spooks. Love it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The guys name from the CIA was called Peter Thiel by the way.
Not all do, no. Again, I mentioned that many of the libraries near me are small. The one closest to my house is a single building affair, while a larger one a city over has private study rooms but no annex.
Back to discussing the topic of this N&R thread, please, which is Miniature Market's public statement regarding online retailers... not discussion of gaming venues / etc generally.
Seems a little heavy handed and bordering on GW levels of lack of awareness, didn't FF try it and then pull a massive K-Turn in the face of flame tsunami ?
It's all stick and no carrot, I'm not quite sure how Warmahordes works but couldn't PP provide promo kits as exclusive rewards to B&M stores, alt art cards, tokens, badges etc, never underestimate gamers when it comes to blingy pimping of their game rather than tell everyone that doesn't have a local store that they should be subsidising those that do
Not all do, no. Again, I mentioned that many of the libraries near me are small. The one closest to my house is a single building affair, while a larger one a city over has private study rooms but no annex.
There will be somewhere.
Sharp insight.
Yes, I am sure there are rooms available for use somewhere in my city. However, as my original point was about libraries not necessarily being a good spot for conducting war games I think my point stands. .
Meade wrote: ...Hell, i can even play xwing at my local starbucks. it's not hard.
As a reformed game evangelist, I will say that this may be just a slight bit harder than 'not hard'.
But I would seriously love to see photos of X-Wing being played at Starbucks especially if you can get multiple games going.
If you/your family happen to own said Starbucks, points will obviously have to be deducted.
Ok fair enough, Well kind of like a starbucks (starbucks coffee), but technically a barnes and nobles. Of course they also do sell the product in their store... all you have to do is buy some coffee and ask nicely they will let you play. Does that qualify as 'hard'? I've done it several times in two separate locations. multiple games, well if you took over the entire store maybe, but i guess that depends on the location and how busy they are.
Privateer was being silly. People play board games all the time in Starbucks or especially in big book stores. My Borders used to host Scrabble tournaments every week even though we didn't sell scrabble. Customers who spend a few hours in a cafe are statistically guaranteed to buy something, and if they start bringing friends to your store or your cafe, all the better.
I've seen people play MtG and DnD board games in fast food establishments, parks and all kinds of places. Why would anyone think X-Wing is magically difficult to play on a large table (or two stalls pushed together)?
We were specifically talking about X-Wing, a game that typically takes 3' x 3', let alone trying to do a 6 ' x 4' set up for 40k Start pushing those tables together and you'd better be buying enough stuff to keep the management from kicking you out or telling you to break it up. Suddenly you need that OLGS discount to afford the Starbucks coffee and Danish.
Like I said, FLGS-haters and OLGS-haters have made their respective positions clear. I find many FLGSs worth the cost for the play space and networking hassle avoided alone.
Others who have no FLGS or bad ones and/or who haven't moved from their home (we've moved every 1-3 years for 20+ years) and still play with the same HS or college buddies obviously won't agree.
And that's okay.
But acting like organizing play for folks who don't have a built-in network is easy is like believing that PP is doing this for good ole mom & pop.
It's ignoring reality.
With Miniature Market, it's clear they have the go ahead from their distributor. They must make up enough of that distributor's sales with PP items that it isn't worried about other stores dropping them because of the delays. But here's the rub, MM becomes the only buyer from this distributor, PP can escalate things and cut off the distributor.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Like I said earlier, a lot of bookshops went under, and Amazon got blamed, but the good bookshops thrived, and offer things that the big boys could never offer.
That analogy is different Bookshops have every right to blame Amazon, not only do they cut overheads they also get away with not paying tax.
Honest business cant compete with that, and not just with selling books. Jessops went under because of competition from online retailers, particularly Amazon.
Amazon are not only able to undercut store based retailers, through their size and tax avoidance methods they are also able to undercut most online retailers also.
There are a ton of good ideas out there to let FLGS thrive.
This however is very true. I have seen FLGS thrive even under todays economic climate because they didn't miss out on the F part. Have a local community store that the local community likes and members of the local community will want to give you business to keep you in business, even to the point of mail ordering via the retailer rather than going elsewhere or doing it yourself for less.
silent25 wrote: With Miniature Market, it's clear they have the go ahead from their distributor. They must make up enough of that distributor's sales with PP items that it isn't worried about other stores dropping them because of the delays. But here's the rub, MM becomes the only buyer from this distributor, PP can escalate things and cut off the distributor.
But that's not happening.. Chaosorc.com doesn't seem to plan to capitulate. They responded with a 30% sale on PP items. I think the only way for meaningful kickback though is for the retailers to get organized and arrange to hurt PP's wallet. PP is trying to have the tail wag the dog. Frankly, I think the FLGS and the online retailers should all be furious and united on this because it sends the message the PP gets to dictate their business practices through strong arm tactics. The truth is, PP needs these various outlets, not the other way round.
Crimson Devil wrote: Okay, so Games Workshop, Privateer Press, Battle Front, Mantic, and Hawk Wargames are all bad guys. What games do you guys actually play at this point? Which companies has met your purity tests?
It's been nearly a week. After reading through this thread I really want to see an answer to this.
Crimson Devil wrote: Okay, so Games Workshop, Privateer Press, Battle Front, Mantic, and Hawk Wargames are all bad guys. What games do you guys actually play at this point? Which companies has met your purity tests?
It's been nearly a week. After reading through this thread I really want to see an answer to this.
The answer would be that "you guys" is more than one person, and each person's answer would be different.
I play boardgames, so have the luxury of not being wed to any "lifestyle" game, as well as the opportunity to play in many more places than miniature wargamers.
MM passes my purity test. Or at least my wallet's! While PP is only delaying product, ANA (Asmodee North America, aka. Fantasy Flight Games) is raising prices for online stores (I think less to help the FLGS than to get into the Big Box stores, off- and online). But that only helps the competition, and during MM's sale, I picked up CMON and Paizo boardgames, rather than FFG. A friend of mine still bought a FFG as he piggybacked on my order.
As for miniature games, I come from an RPG background, where you didn't use "proprietary" miniatures for a ruleset. So I'm looking at games by companies like Ganesha Games, Two Hour Wargames, and other companies that let me use *my* own miniatures. While companies may be forcing you to pay more for their games, nobody can force you to only buy *their* games. So long as they're not also clubbing seals, eating babies, or letting the terrorists win, I'll support any business, be it a game publisher or game store, that gives me the best prices for their products and services.
To take a stab at it, I don't see my opinion of a company as a binary "good/bad"; it's a spectrum that influences under what circumstances I will buy things they produce. For example, my opinion of GW's corporate policies is quite low, and thus I do not buy from them without serious compelling interest. Mantic and Battlefront are both capable of mind-boggling logistical incompetence, but if I want a product of their's I simply adjust how/where I buy it to account for that lack of trust. Dreamforge and Kingdom Death have both turned out fantastic products, so I would likely buy from them unreservedly at the moment. If they did something injurious to consumers that would likely cause me to adjust my buying habits, but they still are in the "made good on promises" camp. While not a manufacturer, I'd buy from MM in a heartbeat, because I know they're going to look after me as a customer because they have done so without hassle.
PP is a red herring for me in the equation; I've only ever bought a rulebook from them and just didn't care for the background nor the models over much. That makes this latest move of theirs more of an aggravating factor on why they're in the "do not buy from" end of the spectrum. However, as a consumer I do not like the idea that any company feels it can dictate the manner in which I can buy their product once they've sold them out into a distribution channel. IMO, if you want that level of control on your products then pony up the resources to be the direct supplier. PP can't, as they lack the market share and probably resources, so this is their attempt to eat their cake and have it too while they work towards that goal.
Thimn wrote: Doesn't change the question, if everyone is saying they are no longer going to support PP, what company are they supporting, if any?
Crimson Devil has a good point.
Considering even the "devil" GW is making baby steps towards fixing some of their ills (things like the Start Collecting boxes at deep discounts, dipping their toes back into Organized Play kits, supporting long dead games), I will gladly support a company even trying to turn things around, versus a band of donkey-caves on a death-spiral like PP. I cannot state enough how much ire they earned from me with the unprofessional way they wrote that press-release. It has to say something about a company culture when something like that makes it into an official, public, statement.
Meanwhile, a mountain of "indie" games from This is not a Test, to Frostgrave, to dozens of others are all proving more worth my time and money. I'll gladly pay a premium, and support "the little guy" when I don't feel like I am being bullied into it.
Wait a second, How is PP considered worse than GW? They will still allow online sales, When they release their all-in-ones they are at a good discount, they actively promote tournament play and have good rules. You really have lost me on how PP is the worse of the 2 companies.
Crazyterran wrote: Probably more their attitude. The infamous page 5, this, etc.
GW is trying to turn it around, while PP seems to be following in GWs old footsteps.
Exactly. Do people think this was a fluke, and PP is going to now become less passive-aggressive, and just settle into being the happy overlords of FLGS? This is clearly a step in a campaign to change other things we haven't seen yet.
With many game stores citing the volume of SKUs required, etc... I fully expect to see models start sneaking off to direct sales... You know, the very route GW took which (rightly) began their villification.
Crazyterran wrote: Probably more their attitude. The infamous page 5, this, etc.
GW is trying to turn it around, while PP seems to be following in GWs old footsteps.
Exalt.
GW is now trying to climb out of the rabbit hole, PP seems determined to jump in with both feet. GW only survived it's errors by dint of it's size but it suffered for them. PP is a damned sight smaller...
Privateer Press really look like they have no viable PR department.
It is understandable that supporting the FLGS is important to see growth in the gaming community and hopefully the bottom line.
They should be doing the opposite of whatever model they are doing: if a store shows "X" amount of gaming space available they get the discount and preferred early shipment.
Done.
The name calling we are seeing here and vilifying large online distribution groups that sell your product looks like a self defeating strategy.
Heck, you could sell "special edition" packages only at locations that have gaming space available.
Tournament packages with extras... you get the idea.
Crazyterran wrote: Probably more their attitude. The infamous page 5, this, etc.
GW is trying to turn it around, while PP seems to be following in GWs old footsteps.
PP is saying they'll delay your shipments (for an apparently undetermined amount of time since I haven't seen anything from them about exactly how long posted...just speculation and guesses)... GW has said for years and carried through their threat to just cut retailers off completely. Is the PP policy a douch move? Absolutely! But objectively it still pales in comparison with GW has done for years and CONTINUES to do. Their recent rollback of OTHER douche moves by reintroducing bulk discounts in faction starters doesn't mean that they've softened their stance towards retailers. GW's not trying at all to "turn it around" in regards to how and where you shop. They'll still cull any store they feel violates their policies, they'll still open up a retail outlet right next to a successful FLGS whenever they feel like it, they'll still disallow any normal online sales AT ALL, and they'll still discontinue or move to direct only hundreds of SKU's which removes them from most retailers except them effectively due to the pricing structure. PP's recent douch move pales in comparison to GW's long standing practices that haven't changed at all with their recent budge in the more friendly direction. GW's "turning it around", while better than nothing, is simply 2-3 steps forward after a 10k run backward.
Don't be fooled by GW finally getting back around to more economical faction starters and plastic board games again... nothing they've done has softened their dictatorial stance towards dictating exactly how they'll "allow" both retailers and consumers to get their products. PP (and to a greater extent FFG) are simply taking the first baby steps towards GW levels of CURRENT douchebaggery.
GW is a vile, terrible person who looks like Scarlet Johannsen. PP is just a big douche who looks like Ted Cruz.
If GW did not produce some amazing models, no one would buy from them. I personally dislike everything about their business and the people currently running it, but when they squatcanned Tomb Kings I had to run out and buy a Necrosphinx because that is one damn gorgeous model. I've bought and assembled a dozen PP products over the years, and never had close to the same level of enjoyment from them. Combine this with weaker fluff, page 5 attitude, and an absolute bottom tier customer service experience, and I doubt I would ever buy anything of theirs again. Maybe a HIPS mini at rock bottom prices just to see how it goes together.
I have to say, I fall somewhere in the middle of all of this with my opinion. I agree that PP product is devalued all to hell and they need to do something about it, but at the same time that company is managed by individuals that have acted like asshats for years, and lost my loyalty a long time ago because of it.
Ultimately, I think of it like this:
PP has been the "underdog" 'Murikan company for a long time, but in the recent years it's become comfortable in its position at the top of that particular pile. While their game is good, and their miniatures great-to-decent, their attitude has always been "I'm a badass, who are you? Who cares who you are." Their customer service has always been absolute crap, as well. Needing something replaced, fixed, whatever has always resulted in a frustrating, takes-way-too-long process of waiting for responses and then those responses being unsatisfactory.
GW, on the other hand, has been around for a long time, and sat at the top for a lot of that time. They've changed up business tactics a plethora of times through the years, and their evolution in their product tells the tale of their age. They create a product that they, typically, sell at a premium price. However, as far as customer service goes, they have always been amazing. Polite, friendly replies to e-mails usually on the same day you send an issue, or a courteous individual on the other end of the phone, and they go over the top with fixing what was wrong.
Say what you will about PP's products, but their people have always acted trashy.
Ya, GW's stuff is sooo good. Not only the quality but the sheer amount of extra stuff that comes on the sprues alone. I dont see why that is not brought up more often. People complain about the prices so much, but when I buy a 10man troll unit, thats it. I get a couple different poses. That same 10man unit might cost $10-$20 more from GW but it usually comes packed with extra little bits. Prime example, I bought the new Rok model for $40, thats it, it was a small resin/metal/some other plastic, model. I bought the Thanquol & Boneripper for $68, I got multiple different head/weapon options, plus lots of extra bits.
I dislike AoS, but when I wanna paint I go buy quality. PP cant hold that above peoples heads. If I go to a LGS im buying a GW plastic blister pack for $25, if I need PP items i'll order them online.
EDIT: I am hearing alot of good stuff about Guild Ball, whats the general census on that?
silent25 wrote: With Miniature Market, it's clear they have the go ahead from their distributor. They must make up enough of that distributor's sales with PP items that it isn't worried about other stores dropping them because of the delays. But here's the rub, MM becomes the only buyer from this distributor, PP can escalate things and cut off the distributor.
The distributor is Alliance Games, which is owned by Diamond. I'm not sure how well it would work out for PP if a couple of the big distributors decided to get miffed about a smaller company trying to tell them what to do.
Ketara wrote: It may well be the case that the High Street can no longer support the average FLGS, and if so, there is nothing PP can do about it.
In the US at least, the "High Street" (big shopping malls and high rent retail areas) never supported our FLGS. GW tried to break into those venues, but most of the ones in my area could not make a go of it and ended up closing (often after driving the true FLGS out of business). In the US our FLGS tend to be in lower rent areas, like strip malls or old downtown areas after all the former businesses moved out to the big shopping malls.
The only thing that survives in my area is shops that host card games. We get the occasional 40K tournament, and I just recently found a place that has a good PP group, but I think thats more the group than the LGS, as they bounce between locations to accommodate travel distance for members.
Chopxsticks wrote: Ya, GW's stuff is sooo good. Not only the quality but the sheer amount of extra stuff that comes on the sprues alone. I dont see why that is not brought up more often.
Its actually brought up as a defense for GW all the time.
Chopxsticks wrote: I guess it gets buried under all the rage text of their prices and the amount of spikes and skulls they put on stuff.
It's also pretty much irrelevant; the extra bits don't really let you do any more with the kit beyond some customization. You don't get any more mini's in it, just more heads, so the value is pretty limited.
I 107% disagree on this one. Its not just heads. I'll start with the GW's Giant kit, its several heads, several hands, and alot of cool stuff to hang off your model. I plan on hanging that Cow off my Mountain King. Ogre Kingdoms also come with an insane amount o extra's. I have a tiny goat with a cork in its mouth that I have on my Rok model. The value stretches out beyond just the unit and models the bits came with. That's the thing.
But if you've been buying plastic minis (or minis in general) for a while, those bits start to add up and then you end up with all sorts of customization options.
At this point with my Ogres for example, I don't think I have a single duplicated figure. They're all covered in bits and junk from so many kits I would have to make a concerted effort to replicate some of them. A few I don't even remember how I made them!
Chopxsticks wrote: I guess it gets buried under all the rage text of their prices and the amount of spikes and skulls they put on stuff.
It's also pretty much irrelevant; the extra bits don't really let you do any more with the kit beyond some customization. You don't get any more mini's in it, just more heads, so the value is pretty limited.
It depends on how you hobby, I guess. The extra bits are very useful for me since I like to convert or even kitbash BFG ships out of spare bits.
Crazyterran wrote: Probably more their attitude. The infamous page 5, this, etc.
GW is trying to turn it around, while PP seems to be following in GWs old footsteps.
PP is saying they'll delay your shipments (for an apparently undetermined amount of time since I haven't seen anything from them about exactly how long posted...just speculation and guesses)... GW has said for years and carried through their threat to just cut retailers off completely. Is the PP policy a douch move? Absolutely! But objectively it still pales in comparison with GW has done for years and CONTINUES to do. Their recent rollback of OTHER douche moves by reintroducing bulk discounts in faction starters doesn't mean that they've softened their stance towards retailers. GW's not trying at all to "turn it around" in regards to how and where you shop. They'll still cull any store they feel violates their policies, they'll still open up a retail outlet right next to a successful FLGS whenever they feel like it, they'll still disallow any normal online sales AT ALL, and they'll still discontinue or move to direct only hundreds of SKU's which removes them from most retailers except them effectively due to the pricing structure. PP's recent douch move pales in comparison to GW's long standing practices that haven't changed at all with their recent budge in the more friendly direction. GW's "turning it around", while better than nothing, is simply 2-3 steps forward after a 10k run backward.
Don't be fooled by GW finally getting back around to more economical faction starters and plastic board games again... nothing they've done has softened their dictatorial stance towards dictating exactly how they'll "allow" both retailers and consumers to get their products. PP (and to a greater extent FFG) are simply taking the first baby steps towards GW levels of CURRENT douchebaggery.
PP also can't afford to cut people off completely, as their stock is only sold through FLGS. Games Workshop could tell FLGS that don't abide to stuff it, as they had their own Brick and Mortar stores, a bigger brand, and a bigger following than PP has now. (No, neither of us have numbers to prove this, but I'm willing to bet GW now is probably still bigger than PP has ever been.)
GW absolutely pulled a bunch of dick moves, but don't think just because PP aren't telling MM or other stores to stuff it is because they are being nice. They simply can't afford to tell all of these retailers to stuff it. Delaying it is the worst they can do, and it would be a hit to the stores they delay the shipment to, as it will mean that people go to other places to pick up whatever hot new garbage PP pushes out.
I know MM and other stores can survive without Warmahordes. I don't think PP can survive without MM and other FLGS.
Chopxsticks wrote: I guess it gets buried under all the rage text of their prices and the amount of spikes and skulls they put on stuff.
It's also pretty much irrelevant; the extra bits don't really let you do any more with the kit beyond some customization. You don't get any more mini's in it, just more heads, so the value is pretty limited.
Speak for yourself, lol. The volume of bits that come with GW kits is one of the best parts about them. I just wish they would leave out an arm or two and add more pouches and other accessories. Retrospectively, one of the best Ebay purchases I ever made were lots of 50-100 pouches, pistol holsters, and knives before the number of them included on sprues dropped so significantly.
GW did something that it could. PP is trying to do something that it may not be able to. As a publisher/distributor/retailer, GW didn't need to explain itself to anyone. PP is having to sell their business partners and customers on this move. Somehow, it feels even worse to have PP saying "this is what's best for you" (when it clearly is not) than it felt when GW just did it.
As to what I am playing these days, when I do get to play it is still Warmahordes, but I haven't bought much that was anywhere near to retail in a long time. For a while there when I was pinched for cash I dipped into my embarrassingly large reserve of other cool models to use as stand ins for PP models I thought were ugly or too expensive. I will probably go back to that if PP's prices keep where they are. Or just purchase from the secondary market, as people don't seem to collect Warmachine/Hordes factions so much as cycle them.
I am about to drop 120$ or so on Warlord's "Buy a starter set, get a free plastic box" deal here today, so maybe I will move that direction? I play Mantic's Kings of War, but with my old Rackham/WHFB army; I just needed the rule book.
I suppose the big deal for me is the rules. PP writes good rules that I like playing, but I don't feel the need to use their models to do so. I have Warroom, and thus all the rules I will ever need from them. If PP wants to sell their mini's for more than I am willing to pay for them, I have plenty of options. I am just disappointed that they would shoot themselves in the foot this way, or at the very least I am disappointed that they would decide that they don't want people like me spending as much money on their models as I used to.
Is the PP policy a douch move? Absolutely! But objectively it still pales in comparison with GW has done for years and CONTINUES to do.
GW absolutely pulled a bunch of dick moves, but don't think just because PP aren't telling MM or other stores to stuff it is because they are being nice.
I'm curious... what part of me referring to PP's recent policy as "Absolutely!" "a douch move" gives you the impression that I think of them as "being nice" in regards to this change? They're doing what they can in the first of likely a series of dicatorial steps just like GW did. Even GW didn't leap all those unfriendly hurdles in one jump.
What would be more appropriate would be to use a carrot rather than a stick,
give B&M stores access to stuff to help them do what PP says they do, energise communities, run tournament, introduce new players etc
and if stores are really that critical to their model of trade and play maybe they should think of opening some of their own in areas not served by any (ie NOT the GW model of poach and destroy). Yes I know it's probably not viable, but if they really, truly think the FLGS is so central they should probably being doing it rather than 'free riding' on MTG sales
As said before, FLGS need to provide services that OLGS do not provide -- and make money from them: MtG events, snacks and drinks (no outside food allowed in store), pay-to-play (free play with purchase or store credit with pay), etc. Our FLGS even has periodic flea markets -- you'd think a flea market would be undercutting his sales, but they make $150+ in three hours for renting the tables, plus any additional sales from customers who otherwise wouldn't be in the store (I guess!).
I have no qualms with the local gaming store going under.
They have a bit of a sordid history and don't usually attract the kind of people I like to play with/ associate with/ expose my kids to.
The local HOBBY shop however I know is going nowhere, but they were so behind in getting PP stuff I could care less if they stopped carrying it. They've even mentioned that sales on PP stuff have stagnated a bit in the last few months, as more and more people have been drifting back to GW (who the store have a long and solid history with, and almost always are cheaper than online as well).
This whole debacle has really soured me from wanting to buy any more PP stuff, which is a shame, as I had planned on ordering Anson Durst, a new Blackhide, the new Ogrun Alchemist and Trencher, Rok, and a few other pieces. Nothing now.
All I can hope is that maybe enough people make it clear to them that maybe we aren't interested in paying inflated prices for less than stellar materials.
From a sales policy, incentives is definitely the way to. Reward stores that stock in depth with early releases, premium packs, etc. Stores that host tournaments- prize support (need not be models; swag works great!). Given PP's competitive mindset, a regional and national ranking system would also be cool.
Heck, may even be worth separating product into marketing packs (the ones with the logos, pictures, etc. like current boxes/blisters) and bulk packs (plain base cardboard/plastic packaging with just SKUs and identifiers). No price break- same product), but only retail stores get the "pretty" ones. (The only worry is that the "generic" packaging may hurt customer perception of value. But those are going to the cheapskates anyway ;-))
The thing is PP offers a substandard product. Take a look at the knight compared to any of their collasals. The knight beats them out of the water. But they offer them at the same pricepoint. Not to mention just how ugly they can be and how much of a paint they can be to paint.
give B&M stores access to stuff to help them do what PP says they do, energise communities, run tournament, introduce new players etc
But that would cost them money directly if they were to do it for free whereas demonizing some sellers is free (and only costs them indirectly through lower sales down the line likely made up with a future push for direct to consumer sales at full profit margin). If they offer to sell B&M "good stores" those fancy kits and deals, those poor stores being undercut by the mean online guys can't afford it and the online sellers don't care about the kits. I agree that they should use the carrot but they want their carrot (cake) and to eat it too.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The thing is PP offers a substandard product. Take a look at the knight compared to any of their collasals. The knight beats them out of the water. But they offer them at the same pricepoint. Not to mention just how ugly they can be and how much of a paint they can be to paint.
A substandard product and a poorly rendered or sculpted figure are totally different things.
I know paper cards are alot different than Plastic models, but doesnt Wizards of the Coast send promo cards out all the time, and provide free boosters for stores to give out at events?
The response to this whole thing might have been a lot better if they had avoided phrases like "parasitic business model". They kind of went out of their way to be insulting.
KiloFiX wrote: But even with different packaging and more onsite support for the LGS, aren't folks still going to end up buying from Online?
Good question.
Organized play kits often contain prizes and free items that can't be bought at the LGS or OLGS, so there's that. (They could later sell these items direct, like SPM does with its mini's, to customers who cannot or did not participate in OP.) Wizards does this pretty well with their alternative art cards for Friday Night Magic, as well as prerelease events, which has value for the "Gotta have it now" players. Maybe PP could provide more stuff in an OP box. Since all their models can be still used in play, maybe even a "swag bag" of older models or goodies can be part of support for game store that run events, either for the store or players. The idea, again, is that a LGS cannot compete against the OLGS for the *same product*, so help them provide goods and services that cannot be found at the OLGS. No idea if PP can actually do this, though. It certainly requires resources, such as an employee to organize organized play, product to provide to stores, and a price point LGS will accept. Maybe providing goods directly to LGS via OP and selling items online can lead to the distribution control GW has so PP can better control the prices at which their product is sold, and to whom it is sold to.
As much as I hate to see other companies go this route, I'm kinda glad that there might be something to shut up the stereotypical "anti GW" WM/H fellow.
give B&M stores access to stuff to help them do what PP says they do, energise communities, run tournament, introduce new players etc
and if stores are really that critical to their model of trade and play maybe they should think of opening some of their own in areas not served by any (ie NOT the GW model of poach and destroy). Yes I know it's probably not viable, but if they really, truly think the FLGS is so central they should probably being doing it rather than 'free riding' on MTG sales
Problem with this idea is that both Miniaturemarket and thewarstore have brick and mortar stores as well as online, so they should have access to the same promos.
Theophony wrote: Problem with this idea is that both Miniaturemarket and thewarstore have brick and mortar stores as well as online, so they should have access to the same promos.
That's true, but I wouldn't worry about it.
When I ran demos for AEG and WizKids, the manufacturer would send the demo decks and promo items directly to the game stores. Some of them would regularly say that they didn't receive product, or an employee must have misplaced the stock.
Right.
fwiw, Another alternative is to provide the OP product through a volunteer demo program, much like Steve Jackson Games does. SJG is fine with us demo volunteers running events at conventions, Meetups, etc., as well as the FLGS, so we're the ones handing out the promotional items. (SJG also provides promos directly to stores.) With PP's explicit emphasis on supporting the FLGS, I don't really see this happening, though.
Apologies if this sentiment has already been stated, as I read an earlier post commending the Carrot over stick model, but in my experience Wyrd (Malifaux) seem to have addressed this issue in a far more pragmatic and less hostile way. They consistently run promotions where if you send them a copy of a receipt (over a certain amount) of a Wyrd product from your LWGS, then will send you out a limited edition/day glow model for free. They also send LWGS crew boxes with additional mini’s inside to encourage players to go and visit their local brick and mortar store.
Personally I find this a proactive method, rather than the misguided reactive model that PP have adopted.
give B&M stores access to stuff to help them do what PP says they do, energise communities, run tournament, introduce new players etc
and if stores are really that critical to their model of trade and play maybe they should think of opening some of their own in areas not served by any (ie NOT the GW model of poach and destroy). Yes I know it's probably not viable, but if they really, truly think the FLGS is so central they should probably being doing it rather than 'free riding' on MTG sales
Problem with this idea is that both Miniaturemarket and thewarstore have brick and mortar stores as well as online, so they should have access to the same promos.
Certainly an issue if the items are 'just' extra minis, they'd need to come up with stuff that that wasn't just minis (which as you say could be parted out but big online sellers who also have a 'nominal' real world store), but it shouldn't be impossible to come up with stuff that works better in store
or just have travelling reps who show up to organised events with special stuff to sell.... I don't necessarily trust kits posted to stores not to go 'missing' so you would need trustworth reps, that sort of nonsense was one of the reasons GW pulled back and then gave up on widespread tournament support
ced1106 wrote: Organized play kits often contain prizes and free items that can't be bought at the LGS or OLGS, so there's that.
I do not want people to think that Fantasy Flight Games is any different from PP regarding online retailers; we had a big thread where Asmodee basically did the same thing that PP is doing now. My response then was the same as it is now: I do not give a flying crap about your FLGS. That's YOUR FLGS. If you want your FLGS to do well, SUPPORT YOUR FLGS. If the price difference between an OLGS and your FLGS is a couple bucks, spend your money at your FLGS. I used to buy everything from my FLGS because I enjoyed playing there and wanted them to succeed.*
But the post I'm quoting is one thing that FFG does spectacularly well. FLGSs host Store and National championships, for which they receive swag boxes from FFG. There is usually a nominal fee to enter the tournament ($10 at most from what I've seen), and top placers get free stuff like alternate art cards, new range rulers or dice, or whatever FFG feels like making. It gets players in stores, who oftentimes impulse purchase a few things while they're there, and supports an actual play group. It's the sort of things that companies can actually do if they want to support FLGSes.
The issue is that PP and FLGS do not actually give two craps about your FLGS. They give a crap about sales, and they don't much care if those sales are from an FLGS or an OLGS. Ideally, they would push you to their online store (which IIRC was Asmodee's play with FFG) so that they get more of each sale.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: GW is a vile, terrible person who looks like Scarlet Johannsen. PP is just a big douche who looks like Ted Cruz.
If GW did not produce some amazing models, no one would buy from them. I personally dislike everything about their business and the people currently running it, but when they squatcanned Tomb Kings I had to run out and buy a Necrosphinx because that is one damn gorgeous model. I've bought and assembled a dozen PP products over the years, and never had close to the same level of enjoyment from them. Combine this with weaker fluff, page 5 attitude, and an absolute bottom tier customer service experience, and I doubt I would ever buy anything of theirs again. Maybe a HIPS mini at rock bottom prices just to see how it goes together.
I think this is a good thing for PP in the long run, should help get more players into the game. I guess we can see how they fair this time next year. I'm optimistic about it.
Ugh... I'm seeing several local game stores having "celebratory Steamrollers" today, to celebrate specifically Miniatures Market backing down.
One of those stores is great, and puts the "f" in "FLGS", but the others are some miserable places that have always been all but belligerent to miniatures gamers.
Just got the Blackhide Wrastler plastic kit in the mail from Doc's. It shall be my last WMH purchase, ever.
On the plus side, it raises the resale value of all of my armies. That I bought for 30-50% off from various sales. Anyone want one at 15% off? At that discount level, it's a STEAL
Gonna run out of miniature games to buy with that attitude because it's currently the growing trend for companies to move to.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Ugh... I'm seeing several local game stores having "celebratory Steamrollers" today, to celebrate specifically Miniatures Market backing down.
However that's dumb. I mean that's too short of notice to even have a chance to advertise an event even if the reason wasn't stupid.
AduroT wrote: Gonna run out of miniature games to buy with that attitude because it's currently the growing trend for companies to move to.
That's fine, don't have time to paint them all and I already have 4 armies. Many others will still be turning to the used market. New releases will still likely be snapped up at Cons and pre-release events where there weren't discounts to be had.
They cannot have price elasticity? Well, just switch to hobby that can. I hear them video games have sales routinely.
But in reality, it just creates the opportunity now for a company to come in and do it better, faster, cheaper. Just like GW beget PP, if PP gets stodgy like the rest, they will all beget new up and comers with new strategies. And FLGS will still fail.
I will be honest this almost makes me want to play Warhammer again because at least with GW it's the devil I know and I know they are trying to cheat me. I really think that this is going to backfire on PP with the bad publicity.
WayneTheGame wrote: I will be honest this almost makes me want to play Warhammer again because at least with GW it's the devil I know and I know they are trying to cheat me. I really think that this is going to backfire on PP with the bad publicity.
At least this was a good vector check to see you, I, or anyone else wasn't just a new blind fan of something. It definitely sours my taste on the company, the game is still good. I will likely move away from larger games after Warmachine unless there's one that create large scale at lower cost (historicals?).
Thimn wrote: I think this is a good thing for PP in the long run, should help get more players into the game. I guess we can see how they fair this time next year. I'm optimistic about it.
How so? Seems to me that what they have done is polarized the community and reduced the amount of people they can reach. Guess we will see.
I think its a good thing because stores are more likely to carry PP product now. People can see the game and buy it right away. I have already told the story of the Cleveland area and how the shops stopped carrying it because of online discounters and yet the game is still popular. I don't see anyone locally here ditching the game over this, and it will give more people the opportunity to buy in, as opposed to going to a nebulous online website that a new person wouldn't know about to begin with.
So no, I don't view it as less people getting reached, its more as far as I can see it. Other game companies have a similar policy, like Hawk for example. That is not stopping the game from growing because there are no deep discounts.
Time will tell whether this was a good move for PP, I wish they had done it 2 years ago, but next April I think the game will have more players as a result of this.
Thimn wrote: I think its a good thing because stores are more likely to carry PP product now. People can see the game and buy it right away. I have already told the story of the Cleveland area and how the shops stopped carrying it because of online discounters and yet the game is still popular. I don't see anyone locally here ditching the game over this, and it will give more people the opportunity to buy in, as opposed to going to a nebulous online website that a new person wouldn't know about to begin with.
So no, I don't view it as less people getting reached, its more as far as I can see it. Other game companies have a similar policy, like Hawk for example. That is not stopping the game from growing because there are no deep discounts.
Time will tell whether this was a good move for PP, I wish they had done it 2 years ago, but next April I think the game will have more players as a result of this.
Every store I have ever been to is an unprofessional mess, and I've been to stores in multiple states (all anecdotal I know). They wear no uniforms, they don't engage customers (not that I've met many staff members of stores that had any salesmanship skills anyway), they don't run demos, and usually you have to be part of the in club to be treated like a human being. I have never gotten into a game thanks to a B&M, never. I've been introduced to all my games through friends. Not to mention these days I can usually read the rule book online for free as provided by the company. So maybe I'm jaded, or maybe this just makes no sense because no other market would be better off from this kind of move.
You mentioned Hawk but DZC is 20% off at MM, compared to 12% for PP now, so that doesn't seem to support your point. In fact the main company we can look to that has had a similar long standing policy is GW. GW by contrast is not growing, their sales are shrinking and 40k dropped to number 2 on the best selling mini game list. Now of course all that's anecdotal and correlation doesn't equal causation. But still I have to wonder what makes people think that gaming should operate any different than any other business. Fact is online sales increase customer base in all other businesses. People love to throw out that niche market tag like it means something. But what's interesting is the hobby market has grown exponentially since the rise of online sales. Again I know correlation doesn't equal causation, but one at least has to wonder if the two things are related.
Chute82 wrote: PP Said parasite buisness practice... Not people buying online are parasites. To much drama
And the hundreds and hundreds of bucks I have spent on my Circle, Minions, and Menoth armies (to the tune of five Battlefoam D-Box and Stacker boxes full of minis along with a large Target storage crate full of unbuilt minis) from online discounters are meaningless? PP still made their distributor bucks. Meanwhile, I don't play WMH in stores, so I see no reason to pay this extra "tax" to punish me for buying from an online "parasitic" discounter. I can get virtually every other manufacturer's models at a greater discount now than PP - including GW, DZC, Mantic, et al. I'll still play the occasional WMH game at home w/ my buddies but there's no incentive now to purchase any new product.
I'm still unconvinced that this policy will actually do that much to affect online prices. GW has much more infamously strict rules and yet you can get Deathwatch Overkill for 25% off from eBay sellers.
Chute82 wrote: PP Said parasite buisness practice... Not people buying online are parasites. To much drama
And the hundreds and hundreds of bucks I have spent on my Circle, Minions, and Menoth armies (to the tune of five Battlefoam D-Box and Stacker boxes full of minis along with a large Target storage crate full of unbuilt minis) from online discounters are meaningless? PP still made their distributor bucks. Meanwhile, I don't play WMH in stores, so I see no reason to pay this extra "tax" to punish me for buying from an online "parasitic" discounter. I can get virtually every other manufacturer's models at a greater discount now than PP - including GW, DZC, Mantic, et al. I'll still play the occasional WMH game at home w/ my buddies but there's no incentive now to purchase any new product.
Still PP don't call you a parasite... Which is what you claimed and I pointed it out to be false. I personally don't agree with PP policy and never posted I did. Just pointed out that PP never called you personally a parasite like you claimed.
Hilarious. .. big bad miniaturemarket is gonna stand up and teach them a lesson.
You see how that worked, lol.
If they really wanted to teach them a lesson they would drop the line and have others do the same. As usual all bark and no bite.
Chute82 wrote: PP Said parasite buisness practice... Not people buying online are parasites. To much drama
And the hundreds and hundreds of bucks I have spent on my Circle, Minions, and Menoth armies (to the tune of five Battlefoam D-Box and Stacker boxes full of minis along with a large Target storage crate full of unbuilt minis) from online discounters are meaningless? PP still made their distributor bucks. Meanwhile, I don't play WMH in stores, so I see no reason to pay this extra "tax" to punish me for buying from an online "parasitic" discounter. I can get virtually every other manufacturer's models at a greater discount now than PP - including GW, DZC, Mantic, et al. I'll still play the occasional WMH game at home w/ my buddies but there's no incentive now to purchase any new product.
Still PP don't call you a parasite... Which is what you claimed and I pointed it out to be false. I personally don't agree with PP policy and never posted I did. Just pointed out that PP never called you personally a parasite like you claimed.
It would seem though that their position implies that he is a less valuable customer to them.
Thimn wrote: I think its a good thing because stores are more likely to carry PP product now. People can see the game and buy it right away. I have already told the story of the Cleveland area and how the shops stopped carrying it because of online discounters and yet the game is still popular. I don't see anyone locally here ditching the game over this, and it will give more people the opportunity to buy in, as opposed to going to a nebulous online website that a new person wouldn't know about to begin with.
So no, I don't view it as less people getting reached, its more as far as I can see it. Other game companies have a similar policy, like Hawk for example. That is not stopping the game from growing because there are no deep discounts.
Time will tell whether this was a good move for PP, I wish they had done it 2 years ago, but next April I think the game will have more players as a result of this.
Every store I have ever been to is an unprofessional mess, and I've been to stores in multiple states (all anecdotal I know). They wear no uniforms, they don't engage customers (not that I've met many staff members of stores that had any salesmanship skills anyway), they don't run demos, and usually you have to be part of the in club to be treated like a human being. I have never gotten into a game thanks to a B&M, never. I've been introduced to all my games through friends. Not to mention these days I can usually read the rule book online for free as provided by the company. So maybe I'm jaded, or maybe this just makes no sense because no other market would be better off from this kind of move.
You mentioned Hawk but DZC is 20% off at MM, compared to 12% for PP now, so that doesn't seem to support your point. In fact the main company we can look to that has had a similar long standing policy is GW. GW by contrast is not growing, their sales are shrinking and 40k dropped to number 2 on the best selling mini game list. Now of course all that's anecdotal and correlation doesn't equal causation. But still I have to wonder what makes people think that gaming should operate any different than any other business. Fact is online sales increase customer base in all other businesses. People love to throw out that niche market tag like it means something. But what's interesting is the hobby market has grown exponentially since the rise of online sales. Again I know correlation doesn't equal causation, but one at least has to wonder if the two things are related.
Dr.No, maybe you don't understand, but MM abides by the Hawk Trade policy, they aren't deep discounting as far as Hawk is concerned.
So PP has a similar policy now, that's it. Yes it will cost more to order online, and PP sees not a dime of that money. This is about keeping PP product in local game stores where it can attract new customers. I fully understand people who don't play at a flgs being upset by this.
My take away, if you really cared for the health of the game you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do. Obviously they see a problem, and this policy they put out doesn't make them more money (unless you count the new potential customers buying more from either flgs or online). This is truly something that should have been addressed years ago. Now we have a player base expecting 30% off to be the norm.
Will be curious to see if MM's prices go up slightly more yet, or if DGI and others go down slightly again, as currently MM is doing 13% vs the others' 10%, but PP hasn't actually said what the exact % they're allowed to get away with is, so it's kind of a guess and see.
Assuming wholesale cost vs RRP follows normal retail (wholesale cost is often approx half RRP before taxes across a lot of products) I'd assume somewhere ~10% would be a logical place to peg a "sustainable" discount for brick and mortar stores and online stores alike. Quibbling over 3% from a large retailer is probably too petty, given the situation.
Chute82 wrote: PP Said parasite buisness practice... Not people buying online are parasites. To much drama
And the hundreds and hundreds of bucks I have spent on my Circle, Minions, and Menoth armies (to the tune of five Battlefoam D-Box and Stacker boxes full of minis along with a large Target storage crate full of unbuilt minis) from online discounters are meaningless? PP still made their distributor bucks. Meanwhile, I don't play WMH in stores, so I see no reason to pay this extra "tax" to punish me for buying from an online "parasitic" discounter. I can get virtually every other manufacturer's models at a greater discount now than PP - including GW, DZC, Mantic, et al. I'll still play the occasional WMH game at home w/ my buddies but there's no incentive now to purchase any new product.
Still PP don't call you a parasite... Which is what you claimed and I pointed it out to be false. I personally don't agree with PP policy and never posted I did. Just pointed out that PP never called you personally a parasite like you claimed.
Actually they did. Because you are actually part of that Business the moment you buy.
Thimn wrote: I think its a good thing because stores are more likely to carry PP product now. People can see the game and buy it right away. I have already told the story of the Cleveland area and how the shops stopped carrying it because of online discounters and yet the game is still popular. I don't see anyone locally here ditching the game over this, and it will give more people the opportunity to buy in, as opposed to going to a nebulous online website that a new person wouldn't know about to begin with.
So no, I don't view it as less people getting reached, its more as far as I can see it. Other game companies have a similar policy, like Hawk for example. That is not stopping the game from growing because there are no deep discounts.
Time will tell whether this was a good move for PP, I wish they had done it 2 years ago, but next April I think the game will have more players as a result of this.
Every store I have ever been to is an unprofessional mess, and I've been to stores in multiple states (all anecdotal I know). They wear no uniforms, they don't engage customers (not that I've met many staff members of stores that had any salesmanship skills anyway), they don't run demos, and usually you have to be part of the in club to be treated like a human being. I have never gotten into a game thanks to a B&M, never. I've been introduced to all my games through friends. Not to mention these days I can usually read the rule book online for free as provided by the company. So maybe I'm jaded, or maybe this just makes no sense because no other market would be better off from this kind of move.
You mentioned Hawk but DZC is 20% off at MM, compared to 12% for PP now, so that doesn't seem to support your point. In fact the main company we can look to that has had a similar long standing policy is GW. GW by contrast is not growing, their sales are shrinking and 40k dropped to number 2 on the best selling mini game list. Now of course all that's anecdotal and correlation doesn't equal causation. But still I have to wonder what makes people think that gaming should operate any different than any other business. Fact is online sales increase customer base in all other businesses. People love to throw out that niche market tag like it means something. But what's interesting is the hobby market has grown exponentially since the rise of online sales. Again I know correlation doesn't equal causation, but one at least has to wonder if the two things are related.
Dr.No, maybe you don't understand, but MM abides by the Hawk Trade policy, they aren't deep discounting as far as Hawk is concerned.
So PP has a similar policy now, that's it. Yes it will cost more to order online, and PP sees not a dime of that money. This is about keeping PP product in local game stores where it can attract new customers. I fully understand people who don't play at a flgs being upset by this.
My take away, if you really cared for the health of the game you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do. Obviously they see a problem, and this policy they put out doesn't make them more money (unless you count the new potential customers buying more from either flgs or online). This is truly something that should have been addressed years ago. Now we have a player base expecting 30% off to be the norm.
We are just going to have to agree to disagree, I simply see this as counterproductive to actual business sense. If Warmachine drops off the top 5 at ICV2 when the numbers come out next year though I will be back to say I told you so . Let's all just have fun playing our game, I for one am done sweating this stuff.
Chute82 wrote: PP Said parasite buisness practice... Not people buying online are parasites. To much drama
And the hundreds and hundreds of bucks I have spent on my Circle, Minions, and Menoth armies (to the tune of five Battlefoam D-Box and Stacker boxes full of minis along with a large Target storage crate full of unbuilt minis) from online discounters are meaningless? PP still made their distributor bucks. Meanwhile, I don't play WMH in stores, so I see no reason to pay this extra "tax" to punish me for buying from an online "parasitic" discounter. I can get virtually every other manufacturer's models at a greater discount now than PP - including GW, DZC, Mantic, et al. I'll still play the occasional WMH game at home w/ my buddies but there's no incentive now to purchase any new product.
Still PP don't call you a parasite... Which is what you claimed and I pointed it out to be false. I personally don't agree with PP policy and never posted I did. Just pointed out that PP never called you personally a parasite like you claimed.
It would seem though that their position implies that he is a less valuable customer to them.
You can read into it and twist it to support your vision, like many have. It has nothing mentioned in the statement about customers who buy online just that PP views online discount realitors as parasites on the community. EBay still exists so that's always an option for deep discounts on products.
Azreal13 wrote: Assuming wholesale cost vs RRP follows normal retail (wholesale cost is often approx half RRP before taxes across a lot of products) I'd assume somewhere ~10% would be a logical place to peg a "sustainable" discount for brick and mortar stores and online stores alike. Quibbling over 3% from a large retailer is probably too petty, given the situation.
I can tell you for a fact cost is roughly 47-50% of MSRP or RRP as you guys call it. Honestly a B&M can easily sustain 20-30% off depending on their overhead. One of the LGS around my way pays nothing for thier building because they own it, and the other pays very less than like 3k a month for what amounts to two large store fronts. Neither offer discounts, neither get my dollars because my dollars are valuable to me. Though I do try and help them sell stuff when I'm in there, like if there's a question a staff member can't answer and I can. I just like my dollars.
Chute82 wrote: You can read into it and twist it to support your vision, like many have. It has nothing mentioned in the statement about customers who buy online just that PP views online discount realitors as parasites on the community. EBay still exists so that's always an option for deep discounts on products.
It's not a twisting of words. PP isnt' stupid enough to call out it's own fan base, but you can't paint online sellers with a moral brush, and not risk offending the people that bought from those sellers.
Essentially, PP is saying that there is a wrong way to sell PP, which means there's a wrong way to buy it.
I'm not personally offended, but their choice of moral language was odd.
Thimn wrote: if you really cared for the health of the game you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do
What exactly is "health of the game" here? Does WMH need to be played in the LGS to be "healthy"?
No the game doesn't need to be played at a LGS, but it's better for the game if stores actually carry the product.
Out of curiosity, why? Other than confirmation that the thing exists and there's a variety of things that exist, what does it matter if stores on the periphery of the marketplace carry it? Big box chains like Wal-Mart and Target where orders are measured in the tens of thousands and people can encounter it by chance? Sure. Outside of those online retailers they were just decrying I'm curious how many stores order dozens, let alone hundreds, of a given item. Add in that the advertising is almost reliant on already being in the hobby (think when the last ad of any kind you saw for a local game store was), and it's hard to see where they're doing any of the things that the end-customers are being asked to subsidize.
That sucks - every WM mini I own came from MM. (save a few pity purchases from my FLGS).
I wonder if they can do lower discount, but then something like "Warmachine/Hordes purchases get you double (or triple or whatever) the MM reward points."
Something like that and a lower threshold for free shipping.
You'd still be paying more for your WM/Hordes - but it'd ease the sting, make future minis a bit cheaper, and for MM, have the added benefit of keeping your next purchase to be more likely from them vs. someone else.
Thimn wrote: you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do.
Decreasing your customer range?
Obviously they see a problem
No, they don't. That's the problem. What PP doesn't see or doesn't /want/ to realize is that the retail market has been changing for quite a while now and they do not know how to cope with that change. That's the elementary problem here and that's what PP doesn't understand.
I don't understand the title update, did something change? It used to say "MM stands up to PP" and now it says "caved". If someone can link to it I'll update the OP.
RiTides wrote: I don't understand the title update, did something change? It used to say "MM stands up to PP" and now it says "caved". If someone can link to it I'll update the OP.
There's no announcement or anything that I could find (I imagine they aren't eager to announce such an embarrassingly quick turnabout), but if you go to MM and look at their WM/Hordes stuff - the price is considerably higher than it was a day or two ago.
Thimn wrote: if you really cared for the health of the game you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do
What exactly is "health of the game" here? Does WMH need to be played in the LGS to be "healthy"?
No the game doesn't need to be played at a LGS, but it's better for the game if stores actually carry the product.
Out of curiosity, why? Other than confirmation that the thing exists and there's a variety of things that exist, what does it matter if stores on the periphery of the marketplace carry it? Big box chains like Wal-Mart and Target where orders are measured in the tens of thousands and people can encounter it by chance? Sure. Outside of those online retailers they were just decrying I'm curious how many stores order dozens, let alone hundreds, of a given item. Add in that the advertising is almost reliant on already being in the hobby (think when the last ad of any kind you saw for a local game store was), and it's hard to see where they're doing any of the things that the end-customers are being asked to subsidize.
In case of MM they've been known to order 1k+ of an item. They got in 1805 of the Force Awakens core for x-wing when it came out. I too wonder how many solely B&M stores boast those kind of numbers.
RiTides wrote: I don't understand the title update, did something change? It used to say "MM stands up to PP" and now it says "caved". If someone can link to it I'll update the OP.
1. PP calls online-only retailers parasites and force high prices on their products 2. MM says "Nope, we stay at our price" 3. ??? 4. MM caves in and adjusts their prices to what PP wants
Thimn wrote: you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do.
Decreasing your customer range?
Obviously they see a problem
No, they don't. That's the problem. What PP doesn't see or doesn't /want/ to realize is that the retail market has been changing for quite a while now and they do not know how to cope with that change. That's the elementary problem here and that's what PP doesn't understand.
Sigvatr, do you also no longer support all the other game systems that have the same policy? All of those other companies give the same reason, how is PP not seeing the problem? If an industry trend is showing the problem, and PP has been famous for never addressing it amongst retail stores, the fact that they now take the problem on makes them blind?
How does other companies like GW not seeing the problem invalidate PP not seeing the problem? PP doesn't see the problem, that's the issue for them.
Personally, I buy X-Wing at -25% and Mantic at -20%. Last thing my wife and I bought from GW was in October 2013. For us, FLGS can die out. They are a relict from older times and as someone co-leading an own gaming club and hosting regular tournaments with 30+ participants, it becomes oh-so-apparent that FLGS are unnecessary if players are willing to do some work on their own. Retail is a dying business in a lot of areas.
So PP has a similar policy now, that's it. Yes it will cost more to order online, and PP sees not a dime of that money. This is about keeping PP product in local game stores where it can attract new customers. I fully understand people who don't play at a flgs being upset by this.
My take away, if you really cared for the health of the game you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do. Obviously they see a problem, and this policy they put out doesn't make them more money (unless you count the new potential customers buying more from either flgs or online). This is truly something that should have been addressed years ago. Now we have a player base expecting 30% off to be the norm.
You are marking two very large assumptions here, assumptions that I don't think are likely true.
Assumption 1: Local game stores carrying models for a game (not just the rules) is the primary driver of new customer growth, not word of mouth or similar effects. That is to say, most people don't start playing because they have friends that play or because they see people playing, but rather because they see the game and specifically the models on the shelf and decide to buy into it.
Putting it yet a different way, the difference in new player growth between seeing people playing in a store with no models in stock and seeing people playing in a store with models in stock is large.
- I don't think that is true. It might be true that some new players see a two player battle box, think it looks cool, and jump in. I have strong doubts about whether someone sees a 15$ warcaster model and decides to jump in on the 1-200$ for an army without knowing other people that play. There are probably some people that do that, but compared to the number that know friends that play, whether local friends or online, or see games played at a convention or on YouTube or what have you, the number of impulse new players has to be very tiny. Especially because PP's price point relative to the quality of their models is not amazing. I have bought some PP models in the past because they were cool, but the vast majority of my purchases have been because they did something specific in game and I needed those models to play in official tournaments. I would never have bought epic Kreuger without knowing ahead of time how good he was in the game.
From the other perspective, Assumption 1 suggests that if people see their friends playing a game, or just see the models being played with in a store or online, the model's absence from the LGS shelves would turn that player away from the game. So if my buddy says "Oh man, you have to try this game Hordes! I have been playing for a while and it is really fun!" I would likely not get into the game because I can't buy it locally. That strikes me as unlikely.
I do suspect that having the rule books around gets new people into the game, as ~30$ for a rule book for a new game is pretty reasonable, and it seems that a lot of folks are willing to drop that kind on money on books. A store carrying the core rule books vs the entire line is a BIG difference however. As someone else noted, PP's line is something like 1000 SKUs now. Carrying most of their stuff is nearly impossible for midsized stores.
Assumption 2: The price elasticity of Warmachine/Hordes players is low, such that the increase in new players from Assumption 1 is greater than the loss of existing players who drop out of the game due to price increases, as well as new players who don't start because of the cost of entry.
- This is the killer I think. Even if Assumption 1 is true, and people will see the models in the store and buy into the game, or because the models are in their local store will buy into the game their friends are playing, it still has to be true that those new players are willing to pay the buy in price (again, 100-300$ pretty handily) and existing players won't decide that the game has gotten too expensive and spend their hobby money on other games instead. Increasing prices will drop demand, the question is just how much. For your argument to work, that PP's decision here is good for the health of the game, it must be true that the number of new players generated by having more stores with PP in stock is greater than the number of players lost or never gained due to higher prices. That's a very big assumption. Now, it is possible that instead of dropping Warmachine/Hordes players simply stop using PP models to save money, and that might be ok for the health of the game. Players could also buy far fewer models, limiting the variations in lists and factions they play, but that doesn't seem healthy for the game.
So in a nutshell, it seems that the only way PP's move here is good for the game is if the free marketing from stock sitting on FLGS shelves draws more players than are lost. I am not optimistic about that being the case.
Note that it isn't even about whether or not there even will be a LGS. As others here have pointed out, miniature games do not keep LGS going, so people buying PP locally is not likely to make the difference between the store being there or not, and so is not going to make a difference between seeing people playing the game or not. The vast majority of the effect is tied to people seeing the product on the shelves and deciding to jump in. (It also is tied to the idea that OLGS that drop PP models didn't provide any marketing, and so there will be no loss of players. Apparently I am the only one who spent time at work browsing The WarStore and CMoN looking for models to buy.)
Azreal13 wrote: Assuming wholesale cost vs RRP follows normal retail (wholesale cost is often approx half RRP before taxes across a lot of products) I'd assume somewhere ~10% would be a logical place to peg a "sustainable" discount for brick and mortar stores and online stores alike. Quibbling over 3% from a large retailer is probably too petty, given the situation.
Honestly a B&M can easily sustain 20-30% off depending on their overhead.
Except those that can't.
With sales taxes of 20% in the UK, a £100 item at standard markup is going to gross a store ~£40 at RRP. @30% discount = ~£16.
So if your business model can cope with profits less than half the standard, more power to you, but most businesses have rent and salaries to pay, as well as maintaining enough cash flow to keep new product coming in, utilities etc.
It isn't impossible, but to say it's sustainable in broad terms is not exactly correct.
GW's policies for online stores was one of the reasons I stopped buying from them. I've been a fan of PP for 9 or 10 years now, but some of their recent decisions made me a bit worried, but this one actually really bothers me. PP always felt like this fresh, hip company, but this policy is archaic. I have never been an LGS player for the entirety of my time in the hobby, 99% of my gaming is done with friends at home and 99% of my minis are bought online. I am not sure where I would go if I ended up dropping PP, I have played lots of other mini games, but only Warhammer and Warmachine have really, truly grabbed me. I haven't tried Infinity yet so that's a possibility.
Zatsuku wrote: I am not sure where I would go if I ended up dropping PP, I have played lots of other mini games, but only Warhammer and Warmachine have really, truly grabbed me. I haven't tried Infinity yet so that's a possibility.
Just get the Song of Blades and Heroes rules and repurpose all those PP minis! Instant win!
Get some circular movement trays and have your PP guys double in as a Kings of War army. Double instant win!
At this point in the past few years I think I have played one proper WMH game, whereas my Trolls and Skorne have seen quite regular play in SoBH.
WayneTheGame wrote: I will be honest this almost makes me want to play Warhammer again because at least with GW it's the devil I know and I know they are trying to cheat me. I really think that this is going to backfire on PP with the bad publicity.
At least this was a good vector check to see you, I, or anyone else wasn't just a new blind fan of something. It definitely sours my taste on the company, the game is still good. I will likely move away from larger games after Warmachine unless there's one that create large scale at lower cost (historicals?).
I like the game still, but at this rate may as well go back to the Evil Empire and get better quality figures and less stressful (not right word) gameplay. A 30% discount was a big reason I've bought so much PP stuff. At least I have a store relatively nearby that offers 20% so 13% including sales tax. Just PP doing it at all sours me on them since it's a very GW like move.
Azreal13 wrote: Assuming wholesale cost vs RRP follows normal retail (wholesale cost is often approx half RRP before taxes across a lot of products) I'd assume somewhere ~10% would be a logical place to peg a "sustainable" discount for brick and mortar stores and online stores alike. Quibbling over 3% from a large retailer is probably too petty, given the situation.
Honestly a B&M can easily sustain 20-30% off depending on their overhead.
Except those that can't.
With sales taxes of 20% in the UK, a £100 item at standard markup is going to gross a store ~£40 at RRP. @30% discount = ~£16.
So if your business model can cope with profits less than half the standard, more power to you, but most businesses have rent and salaries to pay, as well as maintaining enough cash flow to keep new product coming in, utilities etc.
It isn't impossible, but to say it's sustainable in broad terms is not exactly correct.
We don't have that sort of sales tax in the U.S. so I didn't consider it, my apologies. If rent and labour though are causing you to struggle well that's simply a bad business model. These are cost that should be factored in before you even open your doors. Also obviously you must have a plan in place to increase volume if you have an aggressive price model. As I said before though I've never been in a store that actively tries to aggressively increase its customer base. Which is odd because a new player is way more valuable in terms of sales as the initial buy in is far greater than someone who's been playing for years.
Zatsuku wrote: I am not sure where I would go if I ended up dropping PP, I have played lots of other mini games, but only Warhammer and Warmachine have really, truly grabbed me. I haven't tried Infinity yet so that's a possibility.
Just get the Song of Blades and Heroes rules and repurpose all those PP minis! Instant win!
Get some circular movement trays and have your PP guys double in as a Kings of War army. Double instant win!
At this point in the past few years I think I have played one proper WMH game, whereas my Trolls and Skorne have seen quite regular play in SoBH.
I do try to do this, but I am still stuck in the mindset that the rules and background and minis are intrinsically linked. I guess that's still GW's legacy on my thought process. I actually really enjoy the gameplay of Kings of War because it emphasizes the movement phase, which is my favorite part of block infantry games, but the one time I playted SoBH I felt it went much too far in simplifying things. Part of my love for Warmachine/Hordes is the kind of combos you can pull off, and the fact that the rules are both clear AND intricate, something few games succeed at. I feel that isn't there in SoBH, but I could be entirely wrong.
Azreal13 wrote: Assuming wholesale cost vs RRP follows normal retail (wholesale cost is often approx half RRP before taxes across a lot of products) I'd assume somewhere ~10% would be a logical place to peg a "sustainable" discount for brick and mortar stores and online stores alike. Quibbling over 3% from a large retailer is probably too petty, given the situation.
Honestly a B&M can easily sustain 20-30% off depending on their overhead.
Except those that can't.
With sales taxes of 20% in the UK, a £100 item at standard markup is going to gross a store ~£40 at RRP. @30% discount = ~£16.
So if your business model can cope with profits less than half the standard, more power to you, but most businesses have rent and salaries to pay, as well as maintaining enough cash flow to keep new product coming in, utilities etc.
It isn't impossible, but to say it's sustainable in broad terms is not exactly correct.
Which means that you have to sell five at the discounted price to make th same profit as two at full price. Discounting helps on your cash flow, because people will buy more, but businesses need to work out how much they want to discount to still run a profitable enterprise. Dark Sphere's in-store prices are generally slightly higher than online, but that's because if you go into the store they've got more overheads to cover, an I imagine that their location costs them a fortune, especially given how much space they have. Wouldn't surprise me if it was 3-4k a month.
Azreal13 wrote: Assuming wholesale cost vs RRP follows normal retail (wholesale cost is often approx half RRP before taxes across a lot of products) I'd assume somewhere ~10% would be a logical place to peg a "sustainable" discount for brick and mortar stores and online stores alike. Quibbling over 3% from a large retailer is probably too petty, given the situation.
Honestly a B&M can easily sustain 20-30% off depending on their overhead.
Except those that can't.
With sales taxes of 20% in the UK, a £100 item at standard markup is going to gross a store ~£40 at RRP. @30% discount = ~£16.
So if your business model can cope with profits less than half the standard, more power to you, but most businesses have rent and salaries to pay, as well as maintaining enough cash flow to keep new product coming in, utilities etc.
It isn't impossible, but to say it's sustainable in broad terms is not exactly correct.
We don't have that sort of sales tax in the U.S. so I didn't consider it, my apologies. If rent and labour though are causing you to struggle well that's simply a bad business model. These are cost that should be factored in before you even open your doors. Also obviously you must have a plan in place to increase volume if you have an aggressive price model. As I said before though I've never been in a store that actively tries to aggressively increase its customer base. Which is odd because a new player is way more valuable in terms of sales as the initial buy in is far greater than someone who's been playing for years.
I think it's more about an environment is developing where, unless you're lucky enough to have some deeply unusual competitive advantage, such as a pile of money lying around with which to by your own premises, that people aren't opening their doors because there's no point. They calculate that they can't generate enough profit from the sales they believe they can generate, because they know the prices that their product can realistically sell for in order to be competitive.
The bigger players probably have the established customer base etc in order to justify the higher prices or get in and roll in the mud with the pigs, so to speak, but when one takes a long term view, if one takes the view that LGS are important to the the long term future of the hobby, which PP clearly have, and one wants them to be viable in areas that don't necessarily have the large footfall to support a high turnover/low profit model, then trying to do something to make new stores more viable may be a way to go.
Of course, all the online sellers are now making more money per transaction on any PP product they sell, so unless they really tank, that money could well be used to beat PP over the head in other ways.
It's an admirable stance PP have taken, IMO, but it's a badly executed and flawed idea.
Thimn wrote: if you really cared for the health of the game you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do
What exactly is "health of the game" here? Does WMH need to be played in the LGS to be "healthy"?
No the game doesn't need to be played at a LGS, but it's better for the game if stores actually carry the product.
You keep asserting this, but I've yet to see a single solitary shred of evidence to support the claim. Indeed, I'd like you to explain something for me; how does WarmaHordes even exist in the UK & Europe? Most gaming here is done in clubs and independent retailers are much rarer than in America, but PP products somehow managed to penetrate this market and have been steadily growing ever since - by your thesis that shouldn't work, they should be struggling constantly even to be noticed. As should every other game maker except GW which has comparatively massive "reach" of the kind you claim is better than anything else for spreading a game thanks to their chain of stores, but again the reality is GW stagnating and various alternative games and model makers in the ascendant(we'll see if GW's recent moves turn that around).
Thimn wrote: if you really cared for the health of the game you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do
What exactly is "health of the game" here? Does WMH need to be played in the LGS to be "healthy"?
No the game doesn't need to be played at a LGS, but it's better for the game if stores actually carry the product.
You keep asserting this, but I've yet to see a single solitary shred of evidence to support the claim. Indeed, I'd like you to explain something for me; how does WarmaHordes even exist in the UK & Europe? Most gaming here is done in clubs and independent retailers are much rarer than in America, but PP products somehow managed to penetrate this market and have been steadily growing ever since - by your thesis that shouldn't work, they should be struggling constantly even to be noticed. As should every other game maker except GW which has comparatively massive "reach" of the kind you claim is better than anything else for spreading a game thanks to their chain of stores, but again the reality is GW stagnating and various alternative games and model makers in the ascendant(we'll see if GW
It all starts to get very relativistic here.
Sure, PP do ok in the UK, but we have no data to show how much better they'd be doing if decreased price pressure from online stores allowed more independant stores to both open and continue to trade.
It's the whole "known unknowns, known knowns, unknown unknowns" thing at play.
Thimn wrote: if you really cared for the health of the game you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do
What exactly is "health of the game" here? Does WMH need to be played in the LGS to be "healthy"?
No the game doesn't need to be played at a LGS, but it's better for the game if stores actually carry the product.
You keep asserting this, but I've yet to see a single solitary shred of evidence to support the claim. Indeed, I'd like you to explain something for me; how does WarmaHordes even exist in the UK & Europe? Most gaming here is done in clubs and independent retailers are much rarer than in America, but PP products somehow managed to penetrate this market and have been steadily growing ever since - by your thesis that shouldn't work, they should be struggling constantly even to be noticed. As should every other game maker except GW which has comparatively massive "reach" of the kind you claim is better than anything else for spreading a game thanks to their chain of stores, but again the reality is GW stagnating and various alternative games and model makers in the ascendant(we'll see if GW's recent moves turn that around).
Oh come on, are we really going to argue that a product sells better in a store when it is actually available to buy? Why wouldn't Warmachine exist in Europe? You are making alot of wierd claims. My statement is, a product sells better in stores, when it is actually stocked.
WayneTheGame wrote: I will be honest this almost makes me want to play Warhammer again because at least with GW it's the devil I know and I know they are trying to cheat me. I really think that this is going to backfire on PP with the bad publicity.
At least this was a good vector check to see you, I, or anyone else wasn't just a new blind fan of something. It definitely sours my taste on the company, the game is still good. I will likely move away from larger games after Warmachine unless there's one that create large scale at lower cost (historicals?).
I like the game still, but at this rate may as well go back to the Evil Empire and get better quality figures and less stressful (not right word) gameplay. A 30% discount was a big reason I've bought so much PP stuff. At least I have a store relatively nearby that offers 20% so 13% including sales tax. Just PP doing it at all sours me on them since it's a very GW like move.
So... they do a GW-esque donkey-cave thing and it makes yo ugo back to the original donkey-cave?
why not play Infinity? Where $100 buys you all you need to play, with free downloadable rules (that are MUCH better!), monthly updates for multiple factions, AND free army-builder (updated whenever there are changes)!
Seriously, don't go back to an abuser, get yourself a nice guy...er.....gaming company!
And then people want their lgs to carry infinity, see the prices on the Internet and buy online. Game stores then start contacting Infinity complaining how they can't compete with online stores. Infinity releases a statement how their products can't be sold online, everybody gets their pitchforks out wanting to hang infinity.
Chute82 wrote: And then people want their lgs to carry infinity, see the prices on the Internet and buy online. Game stores then start contacting Infinity complaining how they can't compete with online stores. Infinity releases a statement how their products can't be sold online, everybody gets their pitchforks out wanting to hang infinity.
Because the solution here is for a game shop to offer an incentive to buy beyond a place to play and what amounts to charity (e.g. they need money to stay open, so spend there), not for the manufacturer to say it's their responsibility to help B&M stores pay the bills by restricting online sales. As I've said before, I'd much prefer playing in a club than a game shop; there would (IMHO of course) be more exposure to other games. In fact, let's take Infinity as an example. No store around me stocks it. No store around me wants to stock it. The players around me may have heard of it, may not have, but would likely not play it because they can't buy it at the shop, going back to a sense of charity in helping the store to stay open so they have a place to go. If, instead, some 10-12 of us met biweekly at a rented location like a lodge hall, maybe there's a small group who play Infinity or are interested in playing Infinity, and I can see a game/buy a starter and start playing it. Instead, if I showed up to the store asking about Infinity, it's we don't stock it, we don't plan to stock it, and then it's basically no way to learn about it because nobody wants to play something that they can't buy local to "support the store". The problem is there's no clubs and people are so ingrained in the mentality of "let's go to the local game shop to buy/play" that it's a hard sell to say no, we don't need a store in this day and age, we have social media and spaces to rent, so we can play what we want when we want, without being beholden to the whims of a store owner who might, for example, tell us there's no room when there's a MtG pre-release or say we can't play X game because he can't stock it himself.
Just my viewpoint on it. I can appreciate what game stores do, but it's not my job to make sure that they can stay open, and often because their space is limited they can't cater to all the games out there, nor should they, but most stores I've seen also will actively discourage playing things they don't stock for exactly that reason; because one can buy online and just use the store's table space to play instead. Most stores don't offer a huge amount of table space because they also have a storefront, so preference for tables is always given to things the store sells. That IMHO is the issue and the disconnect. A club doesn't have that problem, because the place you are renting space from biweekly or once a month has zero interest in what you're doing and isn't going to, for example, say you can't play historical gaming there because you bought all your figures elsewhere using rules that have been OOP for 20 years, and the store can't profit off of it.
All this talk about how much better it is to have the models stocked.
While completely ignoring that no FLGS has the space or stock funding to carry the vast number of SKUs PP actually have.
In the UK, I only know of a few places that have the full range. All of them are hybrids with b&M stores backed by huge online sales - Wayland, Element, Dark Sphere, Troll Trader (although they are stocking less it seems).
The FLGS model is broken in the context of large games because they simply cannot stock it all. that makes this move by PP, as it was previously from GW, a move to channel sales into their own web store more than anything altruistic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I love the constant accusations that this move was to channel sales into PP's own web store, given that their web store doesn't actually sell the standard model skus, only a few exclusives and accessories.
RiTides wrote: I don't understand the title update, did something change? It used to say "MM stands up to PP" and now it says "caved". If someone can link to it I'll update the OP.
OP here. I certainly haven't been changing the title. I should just change it to "Privateer Press Does Something: Just read the d*mn thread already."
Anyway, some posts from BGG:
Paul: "Ironically a B&M store that doesn't provide those services but charges the MSRP that is ostensibly set for the benefit of stores that do actually are "free riders."
Ghool: "All stores that run events, and market for PP still have to pay for ALL the materials to do-so. Event, league, and tournament kits still cost the store money, and only in some of them do you get an 11"x17" 'poster, which is all the marketing materials they provide. And they aren't cheap ($25 - 50 each). When I was a PG and ran events, I had to design and print my own posters because there were never any provided."
As for MM, they should have just stayed quiet or announced the date of a price increase. That's what they did for FFG games, and nobody on BGG made a fuss about it.
Sure, PP do ok in the UK, but we have no data to show how much better they'd be doing if decreased price pressure from online stores allowed more independant stores to both open and continue to trade.
The thing is though that there never really was a 'golden age' of FLGS in the UK, or at least it was before my time. I started seriously wargaming in the late 90's, so pre internet shopping (to any meaningful degree), and while there were a few shops scattered around they were either bookshops/toyshops etc that had a small corner of GW models (there seemed to be a lot of these, at one point there were 3 in Inverness; a bookshop, a toyshop and a kiosk in the market), crusty little dives who seemed to specialise in cobwebs and dust or GWs. I very much doubt that deceased price pressure from online shops would make the slightest bit of difference today (aside from allowing already failing shops to keep the wolf from the door for a bit longer).
Chute82 wrote: Infinity releases a statement how their products can't be sold online,
Or Corvus Belli just goes "meh" and carries on as normal.
I think the premise is good. Not sure about implementation but model companies are limited in setting prices.
Honestly I think GW has the best idea how to handle this by setting a higher discount on orders for stores who holds campaigns and organized play.
In other words sell your product to minature market at most 30% discount and if you buy a $30/50 organized play kit and hold events you can get the products for 50% off. Minature market can keep selling stuff for 25% off they however Won't make anything. If however an online retailer has a store front with organized play they will get around this problem. At that point all you can do is limit stock to the vendors. Creating a supply and demand scenario. They can continue selling product for 25%+ off however they will always be out of stock and unable to fill all thier orders. You
Sure, PP do ok in the UK, but we have no data to show how much better they'd be doing if decreased price pressure from online stores allowed more independant stores to both open and continue to trade.
The thing is though that there never really was a 'golden age' of FLGS in the UK, or at least it was before my time. I started seriously wargaming in the late 90's, so pre internet shopping (to any meaningful degree), and while there were a few shops scattered around they were either bookshops/toyshops etc that had a small corner of GW models (there seemed to be a lot of these, at one point there were 3 in Inverness; a bookshop, a toyshop and a kiosk in the market), crusty little dives who seemed to specialise in cobwebs and dust or GWs. I very much doubt that deceased price pressure from online shops would make the slightest bit of difference today (aside from allowing already failing shops to keep the wolf from the door for a bit longer).
We'll never know because GW strangled that particular infant at birth.
I was lucky to have a great LGS back in the early 90s, before that, teenage me had to catch a 3 hour bus to cover a 45 minute drive to the nearest town that had any war gaming shops (a GW when GW's were good, got a whole epic Tyranid army on 3 for 2) and other games weren't really a consideration unless you played RPGs or Historicals.
The growth in the popularly in the hobby has, not unsurprisingly, coincided with the growth of GW, and now the non-GW side of the hobby is arguably doing better than the GW side, Internet competition is putting pressure on small companies being able to make a go of things.
If that issue can be solved, either by entrepreneurial individuals or the gaming companies themselves, it may be we haven't yet seen the golden age of FLGS in the UK. Retail doesn't look the same as it did 20 years ago, physical services are the way forward because they can't be replaced by online sales, but a store that can offer a pleasant space to play, food and drink, competitive prices (without cutting their own throat but sufficient to make online sales less appealing) and a focal point for a gaming community has a future, IMO. If the people who make the games are prepared to try and help, that's no bad thing, I just don't think what PP and FFG are doing is the way.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I love the constant accusations that this move was to channel sales into PP's own web store, given that their web store doesn't actually sell the standard model skus, only a few exclusives and accessories.
Manchu theorized earlier that that may be the direction this is leading. It's just a theory, just one I hadn't considered before.
But right. PP doesn't sell anything of their own except at conventions, which is just good marketing sense I think.
gungo wrote: Honestly I think GW has the best idea how to handle this by setting a higher discount on orders for stores who holds campaigns and organized play.
Your store doesn't need to hold campaigns and organized play to get the best discount from GW and above. As long as you satisfy a certain amount of criteria you qualify, but to do so you don't even need a single gaming table.
EDIT- I just missed that you were American and not British, maybe conditions are different on your side of the ocean.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I love the constant accusations that this move was to channel sales into PP's own web store, given that their web store doesn't actually sell the standard model skus, only a few exclusives and accessories.
Manchu theorized earlier that that may be the direction this is leading. It's just a theory, just one I hadn't considered before.
But right. PP doesn't sell anything of their own except at conventions, which is just good marketing sense I think.
It just shows how shortsighted this is, unless of course they are in possession of hard data that shows otherwise; how do they know that most or all of their customers are playing in LGSs? The simple fact that people are buying from online discounters does not automatically mean the majority or all of the people who are buying online are playing in stores rather than in clubs or just collecting.
This is why companies should stay out of the morality business. Whether intentional or not, PP has chosen to support stores over paying customers.
Thimn wrote: if you really cared for the health of the game you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do
What exactly is "health of the game" here? Does WMH need to be played in the LGS to be "healthy"?
No the game doesn't need to be played at a LGS, but it's better for the game if stores actually carry the product.
You keep asserting this, but I've yet to see a single solitary shred of evidence to support the claim. Indeed, I'd like you to explain something for me; how does WarmaHordes even exist in the UK & Europe? Most gaming here is done in clubs and independent retailers are much rarer than in America, but PP products somehow managed to penetrate this market and have been steadily growing ever since - by your thesis that shouldn't work, they should be struggling constantly even to be noticed. As should every other game maker except GW which has comparatively massive "reach" of the kind you claim is better than anything else for spreading a game thanks to their chain of stores, but again the reality is GW stagnating and various alternative games and model makers in the ascendant(we'll see if GW's recent moves turn that around).
Oh come on, are we really going to argue that a product sells better in a store when it is actually available to buy? Why wouldn't Warmachine exist in Europe? You are making alot of wierd claims. My statement is, a product sells better in stores, when it is actually stocked.
No, your statement was that a product is more successful in physical stores than elsewhere, and that's a crock.
My point was that evidently a physical store is not necessary for a game to gain traction, since games are capable of gaining traction in areas with no or very few physical stores - online retail and word of mouth are sufficient to make a game reasonably popular, even in a country which is a stronghold of a rival game company and which features said rival's physical stores in nearly every town. If you want to claim that a physical store is better than the alternatives, you have to evidence your claim, or it's just hot air.
WayneTheGame wrote: I will be honest this almost makes me want to play Warhammer again because at least with GW it's the devil I know and I know they are trying to cheat me. I really think that this is going to backfire on PP with the bad publicity.
At least this was a good vector check to see you, I, or anyone else wasn't just a new blind fan of something. It definitely sours my taste on the company, the game is still good. I will likely move away from larger games after Warmachine unless there's one that create large scale at lower cost (historicals?).
I like the game still, but at this rate may as well go back to the Evil Empire and get better quality figures and less stressful (not right word) gameplay. A 30% discount was a big reason I've bought so much PP stuff. At least I have a store relatively nearby that offers 20% so 13% including sales tax. Just PP doing it at all sours me on them since it's a very GW like move.
So... they do a GW-esque donkey-cave thing and it makes yo ugo back to the original donkey-cave?
why not play Infinity? Where $100 buys you all you need to play, with free downloadable rules (that are MUCH better!), monthly updates for multiple factions, AND free army-builder (updated whenever there are changes)!
Seriously, don't go back to an abuser, get yourself a nice guy...er.....gaming company!
I hate it when people flat out mislead about infinity, with all the fething tokens, silhouettes and ludicrous amounts of terrain infinity is not inexpensive to get into. Especially when that $100 only gets you 8-12 models depending on size. Then after countless hours of investment your playing a game that generally ends in one side blowing out the other, I rarely see close games of infinity by casual gamers.
Not knocking the game or line of models, but as someone that has invested in infinity myself, I hate when I see this thrown around because it is misleading. Infinity is also a game with incredible rules bloat.
gungo wrote: Honestly I think GW has the best idea how to handle this by setting a higher discount on orders for stores who holds campaigns and organized play.
Your store doesn't need to hold campaigns and organized play to get the best discount from GW and above. As long as you satisfy a certain amount of criteria you qualify, but to do so you don't even need a single gaming table.
EDIT- I just missed that you were American and not British, maybe conditions are different on your side of the ocean.
I'm talking about the GW tank shock campaign.
It's a better idea then banning retailers, delaying shipments, banning online advertising or any of the current trends.
GW just made a system that promotes flgs sales by giving flgs a deeper discount (+20%) on merchandise if you hold thier organized play event and purchase thier $30 campaign kit.
Instead of banning retailers force thrm to hold organized play events instead of just being an online retailer by giving those stores 50% markdown instead of the 30% markdown. And if a store continues to game the system and provide nominal play bit deep 25%+ discounts limit thier shipments to s reasonable amount so they can't wholesale. This prevents the same thing without banning retailers.
It kind of doesn't make sense that MM would suddenly reverse tack. They show over 1000 PP items In Stock right now. Sure, some is paint and other low value items, but all in all they have a lot of money already tied up in old stock that will probably not move. I'm curious if they're playing the long game and expecting if prices are higher everywhere, then sales as a whole will go down causing PP to reverse policy.
Manchu theorized earlier that that may be the direction this is leading. It's just a theory, just one I hadn't considered before.
But right. PP doesn't sell anything of their own except at conventions, which is just good marketing sense I think.
And (at least in the past when I cared), the stores that PP loves so much couldn't reorder most of the product for months before and after the summer con season because PP was devoting their production to themselves to sell at full MSRP at gencon. It is absolutely a theory that this is a prelude to them selling direct in the future ala the GW roadmap but it is also a fact that PP will throw all FLGS (whether they're "parasites" or not) under the bus when it suits them financially.
WayneTheGame wrote: I will be honest this almost makes me want to play Warhammer again because at least with GW it's the devil I know and I know they are trying to cheat me. I really think that this is going to backfire on PP with the bad publicity.
At least this was a good vector check to see you, I, or anyone else wasn't just a new blind fan of something. It definitely sours my taste on the company, the game is still good. I will likely move away from larger games after Warmachine unless there's one that create large scale at lower cost (historicals?).
I like the game still, but at this rate may as well go back to the Evil Empire and get better quality figures and less stressful (not right word) gameplay. A 30% discount was a big reason I've bought so much PP stuff. At least I have a store relatively nearby that offers 20% so 13% including sales tax. Just PP doing it at all sours me on them since it's a very GW like move.
So... they do a GW-esque donkey-cave thing and it makes yo ugo back to the original donkey-cave?
why not play Infinity? Where $100 buys you all you need to play, with free downloadable rules (that are MUCH better!), monthly updates for multiple factions, AND free army-builder (updated whenever there are changes)!
Seriously, don't go back to an abuser, get yourself a nice guy...er.....gaming company!
I hate it when people flat out mislead about infinity, with all the fething tokens, silhouettes and ludicrous amounts of terrain infinity is not inexpensive to get into. Especially when that $100 only gets you 8-12 models depending on size. Then after countless hours of investment your playing a game that generally ends in one side blowing out the other, I rarely see close games of infinity by casual gamers.
Not knocking the game or line of models, but as someone that has invested in infinity myself, I hate when I see this thrown around because it is misleading. Infinity is also a game with incredible rules bloat.
Tokens and such can easily be made...for free. I regularly place circles of paper with what the state or deployable equipment is. Plus CB even prints four counters into the tabs of every.....single...box. They have terrain that fits over those boxes as well that MM sells for 8$ for half to a third of a tables worth. So for the price of one GW building your table is set.
As far as the games go, yes there are blowouts (I had one tonight in fact) but a lot of the play is in how well you've learned to play. There's immensely more tactical depth to it and takes a very long time to learn how to do it well. I've been doing it for two years and still learning. Maybe playing a game the challenges you for such a length of time just isn't for everyone, but if you want to save money and play, you most certainly can do that compared to GW. Never played PP stuff si I wouldn't know how their prices are.
I hate it when people flat out mislead about infinity, with all the fething tokens, silhouettes and ludicrous amounts of terrain infinity is not inexpensive to get into. Especially when that $100 only gets you 8-12 models depending on size. Then after countless hours of investment your playing a game that generally ends in one side blowing out the other, I rarely see close games of infinity by casual gamers.
Not knocking the game or line of models, but as someone that has invested in infinity myself, I hate when I see this thrown around because it is misleading. Infinity is also a game with incredible rules bloat.
Because it is inexpensive? You can download the tokens and silhouettes off the Infinity webpage or get them in either Icestorm or the Ariadna starter. They sell their card building sets for $10 each. It is far easier to get into then most other miniature games. The only one that beats it is X-wing. But with both, you can easily spend more.
Triple9 wrote: It kind of doesn't make sense that MM would suddenly reverse tack. They show over 1000 PP items In Stock right now. Sure, some is paint and other low value items, but all in all they have a lot of money already tied up in old stock that will probably not move. I'm curious if they're playing the long game and expecting if prices are higher everywhere, then sales as a whole will go down causing PP to reverse policy.
My guess would be that the fully intended to defy PP and live with the delay in getting new stock in,
but remember their distributor would also get hit by that delay (and so would everybody else they supplied who would no doubt complain bitterly or move to a different distributor), I suspect that after crunching the numbers their sales to MM were not enough to offset the potential losses from other clients and they told MM that if they didn't play ball they'd drop them
so in the short term MM has to raise their prices to please PP, however if they can find an alternate distributor where MM sales volume might be equal to or greater than the other stores they may give it another go, but sorting out a new distributor who'll play ball (and waiting out any contractual obligations to their current one) will take time
This is one thing I really dislike about Privateer Press - charging for army lists that go with their app. Nickle and dimeing customers is such a... GW way of doing things.
Thimn wrote: Oh come on, are we really going to argue that a product sells better in a store when it is actually available to buy? Why wouldn't Warmachine exist in Europe? You are making alot of wierd claims. My statement is, a product sells better in stores, when it is actually stocked.
I can be pretty old school but many of these products are well known: you do not need to go see it in person.
Most of the times they are in an opaque box anyway.
X-wing I do enjoy getting in person where the packaging is clear and I can avoid bent / damaged models, this has some reason for personal review.
Sometimes I order from my FLGS so they specifically know I am supporting them because I can darn well get it cheaper ordering somewhere else.
Oddly, they sell it cheaper to me as a specific order than an off the shelf item.
Added edit: I should concede that "impulse buys" do exist, and would be a large factor in FLGS sales.
As I get older I become increasingly patient AND cheap.
<edit note> Had to edit for really bad quote trimming...
Slight digression but how do other non gaming companies (say sports equipment, apparel, etc.) deal with the same problem?
I'm assuming that's why (US) places like Best Buy, Sears, etc. are all going out of business. Cause they can't compete with the discount provided by online?
Thimn wrote: if you really cared for the health of the game you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do
What exactly is "health of the game" here? Does WMH need to be played in the LGS to be "healthy"?
No the game doesn't need to be played at a LGS, but it's better for the game if stores actually carry the product.
You keep asserting this, but I've yet to see a single solitary shred of evidence to support the claim. Indeed, I'd like you to explain something for me; how does WarmaHordes even exist in the UK & Europe? Most gaming here is done in clubs and independent retailers are much rarer than in America, but PP products somehow managed to penetrate this market and have been steadily growing ever since - by your thesis that shouldn't work, they should be struggling constantly even to be noticed. As should every other game maker except GW which has comparatively massive "reach" of the kind you claim is better than anything else for spreading a game thanks to their chain of stores, but again the reality is GW stagnating and various alternative games and model makers in the ascendant(we'll see if GW's recent moves turn that around).
The problem here is that you are looking at it only from the UK, which is natural. But the U.S. is VAST. Most of the UK you could fit in just California. Also, there are parts of the U.S. that are very expensive to live in. Space is at a premium. Most people don't want a gaming table taking up that space. There really isn't a culture here for gaming clubs. If you try to play at our libraries, you will constantly be told to keep it down and you won't feel welcome. Same for churches that don't really care for you bringing an army of Demons (GW) to their church. Community centers are available, if you want to compete with all of the other people for space. No, here in the U.S. most people play in brick and mortar. I'm not saying that there aren't people running clubs out of their homes, only that they are not what sustains the gaming culture here. Back in the 80's people tried to open gaming clubs and pass themselves off as retail shops. Not to actually sell retail, just to allow their members to buy at wholesale. The distributors and manufacturers got wise to this and started requiring photos of your brick and mortar. Many people complained just like now that the gaming industry was cutting it's wrists by doing that, but it made the community stronger and the companies did just fine. Now we have a similar situation where you have a quasi middle-man (online) willing to live on a 5% margin and a customer base that expects deep discounts. Now the company feels that it's products are worth a certain amount of money and deep discounting devalues that product. So the industry as a whole is taking steps to curb it. What we are essentially arguing here are three things. Some people on this forum feel that manufacturer prices are too high. Others feel that businesses should not be able to decide at what price their product will sell. And a third faction believe that game stores are dead and provide no value. I disagree on every one of those positions. One thing is certain, the Game Manufacturing Community seems to have evaluated what is going on and come to a decision that deep discounting is bad for business and brick and mortar stores (at least in the U.S.) are necessary. It's not just a few companies, it's all of the companies that make the hottest games (40K, Warmachine, X-wing, Heroclix). I'll take a stab at answering your other question about Warmahordes existing in the U.K. Now this is only from what I have observed, and maybe I am wrong, but I have been told by people living in the U.K. that GW permeates everywhere, and it starts in school clubs. Because you have a lot of 40k school gaming clubs, people are used to having their own clubs. Now since GW controls so much of the market, the only way people could get Warmahordes was online, and since they already had gaming clubs, voila, a culture of gaming clubs and online buying. Contrast that in the U.S. Many schools have gaming clubs, but gaming is not supported as it is in the U.K. IN Britain, you are surrounded by a thousand year history, in the U.S. there is no sense of that. Kids that like Chivalry and Dragons are called nerds/geeks and disrespected. Schools will not partner with manufacturers or brick and mortars to promote gaming because they don't want people selling things to the students in school. That is why gamer culture in the U.S. is centered on brick and mortar. The U.S. has a lot of hang-ups and old fashioned ideas that I am sure frustrate many Europeans (and Americans).
Only buy pp stuff online with 30%+ off as they offer no real value for money and lgs dropped them. Don't play pp in a game store, wont subsidize those who do. Just wont buy pp stuff. There are plenty other games out there. PP are just shooting themselves in the foot. No great loss
Worth mentioning that both PP and MM have easy-to-find Contact info. Besides posting in a forum, let them know your thoughts. I did, and I was surprised at how quickly PP responded to my comments.
Smellingsalts wrote: The problem here is that you are looking at it only from the UK, which is natural.
I think people make a mistake in generalising countries in general.
I've recently heard a few people saying the US is more brick and mortar based.... but it wasn't that long ago I remember people making the exact opposite argument, that play in homes among small clubs or groups of friends was the biggest thing in the US and how over much of the USA houses are larger and larger buildings to rent out cheaply for a night are easier to find.
Having travelled a decent slab of the USA, what applies in one town may not apply in the next, let alone from one state to the next.
I think at the end of the day, almost all countries have some reliance on brick and mortar stores, almost all countries will have some people playing at home, almost all countries will have some people who play with clubs, almost all countries will have some people who hire out venues to play. Trying to figure out the balance between them is just a wild guess based on limited anecdotal experience.
If I look at my own city in Australia, I think we have almost everything here. I personally rely on gaming at stores more than anything, but I know there's several large clubs, I know there's a lot of people playing at home, I know there's people who hire out spaces to play, I even know there's people playing games I've never seen before. Trying to take a stab at the ratios, even though I'm ONLY talking about one city (the city I've lived in most my life and gamed in for around 20 years) it's still just a wild guess.
