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I am not sure why a company selling pvc products made in the same factory as mantics were but charging 300%+ more can get arsey about a 20% discount.

Seriously this sounds more like them wanting to squeeze every cent they can out of there product same as ffg and gw.

It should not be up to manufactures to prop up stores with a failing bussiness model.

SeanDrake wrote:
I am not sure why a company selling pvc products made in the same factory as mantics were but charging 300%+ more can get arsey about a 20% discount.

Seriously this sounds more like them wanting to squeeze every cent they can out of there product same as ffg and gw.

It should not be up to manufactures to prop up stores with a failing bussiness model.

I agree, to an extent. It feels like PP Is thinking they are too big for their britches a la GW did, but could be not as malicious (how does that saying go again). I do personally feel that the FLGS is dying out as a concept and only largely sticks around because, IMHO again, people are lazy and would rather go to a store to meet/buy than actually look around for a gaming club to join (which is funny because that was never an issue in the RPG world, you rarely if ever went to a store to play, you talked to people and went to somebody's home) which I feel is a much better model.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what PP does to support game stores (I used to be a Press Ganger for a short while). I just feel that the entire concept of a game store is rooted in 1980s-90s mentality and has never really evolved to the modern day. A gaming club, while an older concept, would IMHO have much more success in the age of social media where it would be much easier to locate and coordinate meetups.

PP have a bit of a track record with being stuck in a nineties mindset with things though. Stuff like the original page five, "xtreme" sculpts, vociferously swearing they'd stick to sculpting figures out of METAL forever...

I like PP games, but PP the company is far from perfect.

 Da Boss wrote:
PP have a bit of a track record with being stuck in a nineties mindset with things though. Stuff like the original page five, "xtreme" sculpts, vociferously swearing they'd stick to sculpting figures out of METAL forever...

I like PP games, but PP the company is far from perfect.

You do realise the last bit was a joke, right? As they also said they'd deplete the world supply of pewter by 2012 (IIRC) and reinvented the wheel, covered it in spikes and ran it over your grandmother's house.

It wasn't meant to be taken literally.

I took it as a humourous statement of intent, rather than an outright joke. I mean, they stuck with metal for their big models even though it's not a particularly appropriate medium, and it took them a fair while to switch to plastic.

Admittedly, I am bitter about that as my Trollblood army came apart in transit despite being pinned, greenstuffed and locktite'd, as well as being in a specially foam insert inside a KR multicase. The chipped paint and need for repairs has essentially shelved the army because I am too disheartened to go through it all again.

Edit: You seem pretty aware of the phenomenon of GW White Knighting, but consider whether you're falling prey to some of the same biases yourself.

WayneTheGame wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
I am not sure why a company selling pvc products made in the same factory as mantics were but charging 300%+ more can get arsey about a 20% discount.

Seriously this sounds more like them wanting to squeeze every cent they can out of there product same as ffg and gw.

It should not be up to manufactures to prop up stores with a failing bussiness model.

I agree, to an extent. It feels like PP Is thinking they are too big for their britches a la GW did, but could be not as malicious (how does that saying go again). I do personally feel that the FLGS is dying out as a concept and only largely sticks around because, IMHO again, people are lazy and would rather go to a store to meet/buy than actually look around for a gaming club to join (which is funny because that was never an issue in the RPG world, you rarely if ever went to a store to play, you talked to people and went to somebody's home) which I feel is a much better model.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what PP does to support game stores (I used to be a Press Ganger for a short while). I just feel that the entire concept of a game store is rooted in 1980s-90s mentality and has never really evolved to the modern day. A gaming club, while an older concept, would IMHO have much more success in the age of social media where it would be much easier to locate and coordinate meetups.

Your later point rings really true. Comic/game stores are a relic of my 80's youth... but you know what else was? Mall culture. For two decades a teenager could get dropped off at the mall and be entertained by any hole in the wall... just because they were there being social. It was as vapid as modern social media... but we did it face-to-face. :-p So, game stores or comic shops worked around "hang-out culture"... which doesn't exist in the same numbers.

I make it a habit on every single vacation, work-trip, day-trip with the wife, etc... to visit any game/hobby shop in any city I happen to go to. Its become a rather depressing affair and a viscious cycle of those stores being nothing but Magic: The Gather opium den looking places, where generally younger customers come in and partake in abusive secondary-market-driven "collectible" gaming. This just barely keeps many of said stores going, and in turn fuels their attitude that table-top games, etc aren't worth their time. Thus they don't have inventory in that area further cementing the store as another CCG shop.

I live an hour away from NYC, and within an hour of countless big cities in the tri-state area... if this area struggles to sustain a couple decent miniatures-centric shops (and there are a couple), I can't imagine how they do it anywhere less populous.

It isn't a matter of my liking it, or disliking it... but the reality is that the comic/game shop model is just on its last legs.

When all I knew was a Hobby Town that hosted 40k, I played 3 times a year.

Then I found dakka and a local Facebook page for wargaming. Now I play twice a month at my house or the library. I went on to use the internet to discover and travel to gaming cons with friends I'd met online.

Two of them got into 40k through Dawn of War.

We now play a list of games we discovered online...Bolt Action, Battle group, Xwing, ect..)

I understand the value of a good FLGS to some people, but in no way shape or form is gaming existentially dependent on a B&M.

 Da Boss wrote:
I took it as a humourous statement of intent, rather than an outright joke. I mean, they stuck with metal for their big models even though it's not a particularly appropriate medium, and it took them a fair while to switch to plastic.

Admittedly, I am bitter about that as my Trollblood army came apart in transit despite being pinned, greenstuffed and locktite'd, as well as being in a specially foam insert inside a KR multicase. The chipped paint and need for repairs has essentially shelved the army because I am too disheartened to go through it all again.

Edit: You seem pretty aware of the phenomenon of GW White Knighting, but consider whether you're falling prey to some of the same biases yourself.

Yes, I does come across as that a little. Was posting from my phone at work so I had to be concise.

I in no way think PP are perfect and gak rainbows etc. Whilst on a personal level they've done nothing to piss me off so they're fine as far as I'm concerned, but that is far from the MO of the run of the mill GW knight of a certain hue.

Fair enough - they've not pissed me off either, but I don't see that the distance between them and GW is as huge as it could be, especially on premium pricing for mediocre minis.

 Strombones wrote:
Now I play twice a month at my house or the library.

The library? How does that work? Do they have an event or community room that you can reserve?

 BaconSlayer wrote:

 Strombones wrote:
Now I play twice a month at my house or the library.

The library? How does that work? Do they have an event or community room that you can reserve?

Yep. A community room that a club reserves once a month.

 BaconSlayer wrote:

 Strombones wrote:
Now I play twice a month at my house or the library.

The library? How does that work? Do they have an event or community room that you can reserve?

A lot of places do. Back in high school, my history club (history lesson plus a few gaming in the related period) would sometimes make use of them. Reasonable enough rates on a Saturday afternoon.

This move from PP is in such poor taste, I still can't believe it. You could teach this in a class on PR as a how-not-to example. It's not going to help the LGS (not that I believe it was ever really intended to), and it's not going to help retain customers. All it's going to do is alienate current or potential customers, like me. I'm certainly not going to start WMH now.

 Guildsman wrote:

 BaconSlayer wrote:

 Strombones wrote:
Now I play twice a month at my house or the library.

The library? How does that work? Do they have an event or community room that you can reserve?

A lot of places do. Back in high school, my history club (history lesson plus a few gaming in the related period) would sometimes make use of them. Reasonable enough rates on a Saturday afternoon.

Where did you guys meet? The library or your high school had available space? I have kind of derailed the thread a bit, but these are some good ideas for potential alternate venues. This might open things up a bit for the inevitable 'that store is too far' or 'so-and-so has three tables, but that is because he lives out in the boondocks'.

 BaconSlayer wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:

 BaconSlayer wrote:

 Strombones wrote:
Now I play twice a month at my house or the library.

The library? How does that work? Do they have an event or community room that you can reserve?

A lot of places do. Back in high school, my history club (history lesson plus a few gaming in the related period) would sometimes make use of them. Reasonable enough rates on a Saturday afternoon.

Where did you guys meet? The library or your high school had available space? I have kind of derailed the thread a bit, but these are some good ideas for potential alternate venues. This might open things up a bit for the inevitable 'that store is too far' or 'so-and-so has three tables, but that is because he lives out in the boondocks'.

I think this is tangentially on-topic so...

Most of the time we'd use a room at my high school, which coincidentally was in the school library. Keep in mind though that I was a student and the club was overseen by a teacher, so not for the general public.

For special events, big games, and the sort that would take all afternoon, we'd rent a room at the local library. Don't know the rate personally, but since the club's budget was ~$0, it couldn't have been too much.

I haven't been able to follow the whole thread, but this is not just a miniatures thing...

http://islaythedragon.com/misc/truthbomb-board-games-are-luxury-goods/

Regardless of what us consumers might think, it seems pretty clear that many of the companies that produce/create the games we play see a real reason to worry about what online discounters might be doing to the health of the hobby writ large. While it may be akin to trying to hold back the tide, GW and PP are hardly alone here.

Valete,

JohnS

Winning arguments always stem from "truthbombs" and memes.



Seriously, just have stores charge for play space. It's super unpopular in the US, but every other hobby that involves social play areas charges you for your fun in some fashion. Seems like wargaming is the anomaly. Instead of correcting, you just have manufacturers holding it into the "old ways" for no reason.

I'm okay with paying to play on any given day. I do it for tournaments and conventions. The built in guilt to buy at a place is no bueno.

I used to be a big supporter of PP, having been with them since the beginning. However the last year or so I have become disenchanted with the game and company. Part of it has been the model quality and part the game style just doesn't appeal to me anymore. To be honest the game is just not geared for narrative gamers like me. That being said I feel that the brick and mortar game store is a dying model. I work two retail jobs and they are both wisely embracing online sales, it is the future like it or not. Card games keep gamestores open where I live. The store near me had 36 players for the magic prerelease and no one playing tabletop miniature games.

I don't agree with FLGS are essential to the hobby, maybe for some but not all.
Back in my home country and even here in Japan there are no pure FLGS anymore most of them have diverged in other area's to survive.
PP can do whatever it wants but in these days of kickstarters, and small companies rising due the ease of 3D prototyping, i gladly take my money elsewhere.
PP needs me, i don't need PP.

 Krinsath wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

I'm just against the whole attitude. I bought the DZC starter from MM because the discount made it a must purchase. Since then, I have ordered a number of their resin products through the FLGS and paid MSRP because they weren't too expensive and I wanted to support the FLGS and HW. However, if they are engaged in price protectionism and dicking around with eretailers, then it makes a big difference to me. On principle, I would purchase all their products from deep dis counters or not at all. And during the Kickstarter, I advised a lot of people who were on the fence to wait for the retail discounts who might now not ever get into the game if those discounts never materialize. Now I look like a fool and Hawk Wargames looks greedy.

I don't think that's "FLGS must be saved!" protectionism like PP and FFG are trying to wrap themselves in. I think that's just their standard terms offered to everyone and doesn't preclude the offer of other incentives or sales. It's just the maximum "standard advertised discount" if you want to get things, online or B&M. This is not really any different than going to some big box store and see "price shown in cart" on an item because it's below MSRP and that's not allowed to be advertised by the manufacturer's trade terms.

While still mildly annoying, I find that less troublesome than people who say "this group can do A because we like them for <reasons>, but these other customers are scum so we're going to make them not do things we don't like." While the end result isn't terribly different, in the former at least everyone is treated equally "badly" (since doing business with a manufacturer, especially in wargaming, is always a choice) while another company is clearly playing favorites based on channel.

So then it's not the same idea? More like Maytag disallowing department stores from advertizing sale prices as opposed to trying to prevent sale prices? That's not as worrisome to me as PP trying to feth around with the discounters' supply. I'm as loyal to Miniature Market and The War Store as I am to the FLGS. Good service and an attractive shopping experience won me over.

And of course being able to buy stuff without sales tax and at 20-50% off doesn't hurt either

blackdiamond wrote:Privateer Press never sold great, but over the previous year, it sold terribly. Drumming up more support for more weekly events failed. The problem with Privateer Press is they do zero inventory control on their lines. No model has ever been discontinued to my knowledge. That means the line gets bigger, and bigger, and suddenly, after 12 years of selling Warmachine, you either reconcile with poor performance of the line or you drop it. There's an internal problem there, beyond sales.

Miniature wargames that require painting and assembly are just a bid fit for retail. Especially those that are played on a 4x4 or larger playing space. I know all the local stores who have ditched them in favor board games, card games and board-game like miniatures like X-Wing are very happy with their decision. X-Wing still takes special table tops they put over their normal card game tables, but it's far more manageable than games like Warmachine and 40k that take 4x4-6 foot tables.

Buzzsaw wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Sounds to me like PP costs 66% more than it should, then.

This. As I said before in the thread, the biggest problem with the logic of "we're being undercut, that's why we can't sell at MSRP!" is that it presumes that there is a large group of people that would be willing to buy PP stuff at MSRP.

PP simply isn't selling a product (in many cases) that is worth the price they are demanding for it. That's my opinion and so I either 1) buy when the product has been sufficiently discounted to meet its quality, or 2) simply don't buy.

I've just had my fill of PVC. I would refuse it even if it was free. From what I've seen, PP's hard styrene based plastic is good. Their resin is just excellent and their metal is pretty good too, but now there are insufficient products in a given army to avoid the PVC. So I haven't started a new army since. I used to buy and paint up a new 50 point army every three months or so. Now I honestly can't remember the last PP product I bought. Oh, right, when the PVC Cephalyx Drudges came out, I snapped up the local store's metal ones so I could have a unit not in PVC. The metal drudges have some design issues, but I was willing to deal with those rather than spindly PVC with terrible parting lines.

I also noticed that I play less. Only monthly now instead of every week. Having a fresh army every 3-4 months really held my interest. So now I've been passing on metal releases for factions I have because I'm not super excited about playing them.

I totally get why people go with online discounters, their main material is terrible and not worth the price.

PP is free to *try* to control pricing all they want. I imagine those companies who discount heavily can simply offer better shipping rates and a smaller discount and still out compete the local stores who often suck. I know the one store left in town that stocks some PP stuff is really terrible in terms of promoting it. The guys who work there give zero feths about anything and they regularly put your special orders (regardless of manufacturer) on the shelf rather than contacting you about it. Why should some guy living 90 minutes outside of town have to subsidize that crap?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

So then it's not the same idea? More like Maytag disallowing department stores from advertizing sale prices as opposed to trying to prevent sale prices? That's not as worrisome to me as PP trying to feth around with the discounters' supply. I'm as loyal to Miniature Market and The War Store as I am to the FLGS. Good service and an attractive shopping experience won me over.

That's my understanding; it could be wrong. Battlefront, for example, has a 10% "standard" discount cap that they've had in place for many years, but I think it applies equally to all channels and not just one they feel is naughty. That also doesn't preclude sales/clearances, nor does it mean you can't make up the difference in other ways. For example, Miniature Market gives you a bonus 500 points on $50 of FoW (or another 10% off on a future order if you only order about that much) and I have seen other stores offer 10% extra discount on items they do not have in stock (an idea many FLGS around me should consider, but don't because of all these online "parasites" I guess). Main complaint others have about Battlefront's price floor is they do like to sell below that themselves from time to time, though as a consumer that does work to my benefit so it'd be hypocritical for me to join in on that chorus.

 MattofWar wrote:
PP is free to *try* to control pricing all they want. I imagine those companies who discount heavily can simply offer better shipping rates and a smaller discount and still out compete the local stores who often suck. I know the one store left in town that stocks some PP stuff is really terrible in terms of promoting it. The guys who work there give zero feths about anything and they regularly put your special orders (regardless of manufacturer) on the shelf rather than contacting you about it. Why should some guy living 90 minutes outside of town have to subsidize that crap?

Clearly because those guys who are not providing basic customer service are the ones growing the hobby and continuing to promote the product to increase sales. That's why they don't have time to call you about your orders; they can't hear the delivery guy arriving over all the promoting they're doing. In this topsy-turvy world do you expect them to pick up the phone and call you so that you can drive to the store? Who's going to be promoting the lines THEN? You? Pshaw! I think not, that would imply that there's some sort of advertising that occurred via the words that came out of people's mouths and we all know that's a myth. Now, to the corner to think about what you've said you naughty, naughty walking-wallet.

Joking aside, I suspect the main issue underlining PP's stated goal is that many LGS owners got into business because they liked games (which are fun) and not because they liked being a business-owner (which is decidedly less so). Thus they often make business mistakes like hiring "passionate" but ineffectual employees, inflexibly clinging to "MSRP or bust!" without realizing business is still negotiation and, at least in my area for nearly all the stores, not collecting/tracking customer purchase data in aid of selling future purchases. Doing any one of those is kind of a dumb idea, and I'm pretty sure most people with a LGS can name stores that do all of them and many more. Meanwhile, those "free-riding" online vendors tend to have all that squared away...almost like it makes business sense or something.

 BaconSlayer wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:

 BaconSlayer wrote:

 Strombones wrote:
Now I play twice a month at my house or the library.

The library? How does that work? Do they have an event or community room that you can reserve?

A lot of places do. Back in high school, my history club (history lesson plus a few gaming in the related period) would sometimes make use of them. Reasonable enough rates on a Saturday afternoon.

Where did you guys meet? The library or your high school had available space? I have kind of derailed the thread a bit, but these are some good ideas for potential alternate venues. This might open things up a bit for the inevitable 'that store is too far' or 'so-and-so has three tables, but that is because he lives out in the boondocks'.

Apologies for the horrible layout of this post but I am on my phone.
I move around a lot due to my job so I have been to clubs in all sorts of places such as:
community centres, libraries,schools, service/veterans clubs, a room above a restaurant, a pub and even in a workshop/garage.
All you need is somewhere weather proof that is out of the way, with enough space for tables and ideally somewhere to store terrain.

@Krinsath

OK, first of all exalted for the above because it was clearly a fun post to read and make your point! :-)

Second, the fact that some store employees (and even worse, owners?!) who sit in front of YouTube all day, don't greet customers entering their facility, allow product to gather dust, don't pick up the phone to inform customers etc, yes, we can all safely agree they are not the ones promoting the hobby anyway. Ever. But I think we can also all agree (at some degree at least) that (F)LGS have everything it takes in order to do so. Some people posted before how some stores thrive and some don't since there are plenty of things these stores can do in order to generate interest and augment income.
Someone posted above that stores don't have what it takes to create tournament play. And yes, while we know some stores may but some may not have the room in order to host 50+ people's tournaments, but they might as well organize it, (charge a ticket, phone their clientelle to let them know and gather the players, rent a place, work on making a diorama to inspire people, take care of food&beverages, supply tables, chairs, terrain... so many many things to do, and still make a profit.
It isn't a matter of "this type of business is dying so let it die" imo, it's more about making sure to play your cards right since the game is still very much on. :-)

If the distributors don't comply, their shipments will be delayed. But most distributor sales reps are just going to blame the manufacturer when stores call in and ask why something is still backordered. It happens already. A customer asks a store why something didn't come in (the distributor didn't have it) and the store asks the distributor where their order is (the manufacturer hasn't shipped it yet) and the distributor asks the manufacturer (it's on a boat coming from China). Everyone just shifts the blame up the distribution ladder as soon as someone is dissatisfied. And now if distributors don't give up customers the manufacturers don't like, everyone will all get longer delays (as all shipments to the distributor will be delayed, not just the ones going to online stores).

Everyone who deals with the retail channel is already used to delays and excuses. So is this really about convincing distributors to not sell to certain kinds of customers (or convincing those customers to change) or is it about trying to make online sellers take longer to fill orders so everyone gets to have the same crappy delays?

Seems MM says they won't comply with PPs new edict at all. Should be interesting to see just how much their business increases

Sining wrote:
Seems MM says they won't comply with PPs new edict at all. Should be interesting to see just how much their business increases

Do you have a quote/link or are you just assuming that from the recent sale?

Sining wrote:
Seems MM says they won't comply with PPs new edict at all. Should be interesting to see just how much their business increases

Meh. I don't doubt it but it'd be a sticky dilemma because they're also a B&M FLGS in addition to being a fairly large, online retailer. They also had no problem giving GW the finger and walking away when things got ridiculous with them so I imagine the same will apply to PP.

It certainly doesn't help matters that yesterday privateer press was supposed to release the comprehensive list of free rider venues or companies they deem to be free riders to distributors.

They didn't do that.

And the plot... Thickens!!

 agnosto wrote:

Sining wrote:
Seems MM says they won't comply with PPs new edict at all. Should be interesting to see just how much their business increases

Meh. I don't doubt it but it'd be a sticky dilemma because they're also a B&M FLGS in addition to being a fairly large, online retailer. They also had no problem giving GW the finger and walking away when things got ridiculous with them so I imagine the same will apply to PP.

I wouldn't really call them a FLGS. They've got a small storefront tacked onto their warehouse in an out of the way light industrial park, no tables, and are open no later than six. They're an online retailer with what's essentially the bare minimum to have a brick and mortar to meet some manufacturers' terms.