Miniature Market and Privateer Press Online Retailer Policy - Discount Reduced to 10% (Again)

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**highlord tamburlaine**

But if you've been buying plastic minis (or minis in general) for a while, those bits start to add up and then you end up with all sorts of customization options.

At this point with my Ogres for example, I don't think I have a single duplicated figure. They're all covered in bits and junk from so many kits I would have to make a concerted effort to replicate some of them. A few I don't even remember how I made them!

**BobtheInquisitor**

Herzlos wrote:
Chopxsticks wrote:
I guess it gets buried under all the rage text of their prices and the amount of spikes and skulls they put on stuff.

It's also pretty much irrelevant; the extra bits don't really let you do any more with the kit beyond some customization. You don't get any more mini's in it, just more heads, so the value is pretty limited.

It depends on how you hobby, I guess. The extra bits are very useful for me since I like to convert or even kitbash BFG ships out of spare bits.

**Crimson Devil**

Its a minor thing. Its like forgiving your girlfriend for cheating on you because she is pretty.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Crimson Devil wrote:
Its a minor thing. Its like forgiving your girlfriend for cheating on you because she is pretty.

I guess it depends on why you are with her. If you already think she's a terrible person but are only dating her for her looks, well...

**Crazyterran**

warboss wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Probably more their attitude. The infamous page 5, this, etc.

GW is trying to turn it around, while PP seems to be following in GWs old footsteps.

PP is saying they'll delay your shipments (for an apparently undetermined amount of time since I haven't seen anything from them about exactly how long posted...just speculation and guesses)... GW has said for years and carried through their threat to just cut retailers off completely. Is the PP policy a douch move? Absolutely! But objectively it still pales in comparison with GW has done for years and CONTINUES to do. Their recent rollback of OTHER douche moves by reintroducing bulk discounts in faction starters doesn't mean that they've softened their stance towards retailers. GW's not trying at all to "turn it around" in regards to how and where you shop. They'll still cull any store they feel violates their policies, they'll still open up a retail outlet right next to a successful FLGS whenever they feel like it, they'll still disallow any normal online sales AT ALL, and they'll still discontinue or move to direct only hundreds of SKU's which removes them from most retailers except them effectively due to the pricing structure. PP's recent douch move pales in comparison to GW's long standing practices that haven't changed at all with their recent budge in the more friendly direction. GW's "turning it around", while better than nothing, is simply 2-3 steps forward after a 10k run backward.

Don't be fooled by GW finally getting back around to more economical faction starters and plastic board games again... nothing they've done has softened their dictatorial stance towards dictating exactly how they'll "allow" both retailers and consumers to get their products. PP (and to a greater extent FFG) are simply taking the first baby steps towards GW levels of CURRENT douchebaggery.

PP also can't afford to cut people off completely, as their stock is only sold through FLGS. Games Workshop could tell FLGS that don't abide to stuff it, as they had their own Brick and Mortar stores, a bigger brand, and a bigger following than PP has now. (No, neither of us have numbers to prove this, but I'm willing to bet GW now is probably still bigger than PP has ever been.)

GW absolutely pulled a bunch of dick moves, but don't think just because PP aren't telling MM or other stores to stuff it is because they are being nice. They simply can't afford to tell all of these retailers to stuff it. Delaying it is the worst they can do, and it would be a hit to the stores they delay the shipment to, as it will mean that people go to other places to pick up whatever hot new garbage PP pushes out.

I know MM and other stores can survive without Warmahordes. I don't think PP can survive without MM and other FLGS.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Herzlos wrote:
Chopxsticks wrote:
I guess it gets buried under all the rage text of their prices and the amount of spikes and skulls they put on stuff.

It's also pretty much irrelevant; the extra bits don't really let you do any more with the kit beyond some customization. You don't get any more mini's in it, just more heads, so the value is pretty limited.

Speak for yourself, lol. The volume of bits that come with GW kits is one of the best parts about them. I just wish they would leave out an arm or two and add more pouches and other accessories. Retrospectively, one of the best Ebay purchases I ever made were lots of 50-100 pouches, pistol holsters, and knives before the number of them included on sprues dropped so significantly.

**Manchu**

GW did something that it could. PP is trying to do something that it may not be able to. As a publisher/distributor/retailer, GW didn't need to explain itself to anyone. PP is having to sell their business partners and customers on this move. Somehow, it feels even worse to have PP saying "this is what's best for you" (when it clearly is not) than it felt when GW just did it.

**Wehrkind**

As to what I am playing these days, when I do get to play it is still Warmahordes, but I haven't bought much that was anywhere near to retail in a long time. For a while there when I was pinched for cash I dipped into my embarrassingly large reserve of other cool models to use as stand ins for PP models I thought were ugly or too expensive. I will probably go back to that if PP's prices keep where they are. Or just purchase from the secondary market, as people don't seem to collect Warmachine/Hordes factions so much as cycle them.

I am about to drop 120$ or so on Warlord's "Buy a starter set, get a free plastic box" deal here today, so maybe I will move that direction? I play Mantic's Kings of War, but with my old Rackham/WHFB army; I just needed the rule book.

I suppose the big deal for me is the rules. PP writes good rules that I like playing, but I don't feel the need to use their models to do so. I have Warroom, and thus all the rules I will ever need from them. If PP wants to sell their mini's for more than I am willing to pay for them, I have plenty of options. I am just disappointed that they would shoot themselves in the foot this way, or at the very least I am disappointed that they would decide that they don't want people like me spending as much money on their models as I used to.

**Chopxsticks**

Could you link me to this? Payday today and all.. Im looking at ordering some Guild Ball models today as well.

**warboss**

Crazyterran wrote:
warboss wrote:

Is the PP policy a douch move? Absolutely! But objectively it still pales in comparison with GW has done for years and CONTINUES to do.

GW absolutely pulled a bunch of dick moves, but don't think just because PP aren't telling MM or other stores to stuff it is because they are being nice.

I'm curious... what part of me referring to PP's recent policy as "Absolutely!" "a douch move" gives you the impression that I think of them as "being nice" in regards to this change?

They're doing what they can in the first of likely a series of dicatorial steps just like GW did. Even GW didn't leap all those unfriendly hurdles in one jump.

**KiloFiX**

If what PP is doing is not appropriate, what are we suggesting then?

Continuing to allow online to undercut the LGS; so folks might browse or play at the LGS but then just buy everything online?

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

What would be more appropriate would be to use a carrot rather than a stick,

give B&M stores access to stuff to help them do what PP says they do, energise communities, run tournament, introduce new players etc

and if stores are really that critical to their model of trade and play maybe they should think of opening some of their own in areas not served by any (ie NOT the GW model of poach and destroy). Yes I know it's probably not viable, but if they really, truly think the FLGS is so central they should probably being doing it rather than 'free riding' on MTG sales

**Sinful Hero**

KiloFiX wrote:
If what PP is doing is not appropriate, what are we suggesting then?

Continuing to allow online to undercut the LGS; so folks might browse or play at the LGS but then just buy everything online?

I'd rather your LGS that I don't play at go under, than for me to pay higher costs to subsidize your miniature gaming venue.

**ced1106**

As said before, FLGS need to provide services that OLGS do not provide -- and make money from them: MtG events, snacks and drinks (no outside food allowed in store), pay-to-play (free play with purchase or store credit with pay), etc. Our FLGS even has periodic flea markets -- you'd think a flea market would be undercutting his sales, but they make $150+ in three hours for renting the tables, plus any additional sales from customers who otherwise wouldn't be in the store (I guess!).

**highlord tamburlaine**

I have no qualms with the local gaming store going under.

They have a bit of a sordid history and don't usually attract the kind of people I like to play with/ associate with/ expose my kids to.

The local HOBBY shop however I know is going nowhere, but they were so behind in getting PP stuff I could care less if they stopped carrying it. They've even mentioned that sales on PP stuff have stagnated a bit in the last few months, as more and more people have been drifting back to GW (who the store have a long and solid history with, and almost always are cheaper than online as well).

This whole debacle has really soured me from wanting to buy any more PP stuff, which is a shame, as I had planned on ordering Anson Durst, a new Blackhide, the new Ogrun Alchemist and Trencher, Rok, and a few other pieces. Nothing now.

All I can hope is that maybe enough people make it clear to them that maybe we aren't interested in paying inflated prices for less than stellar materials.

**jmurph**

From a sales policy, incentives is definitely the way to. Reward stores that stock in depth with early releases, premium packs, etc. Stores that host tournaments- prize support (need not be models; swag works great!). Given PP's competitive mindset, a regional and national ranking system would also be cool.

Heck, may even be worth separating product into marketing packs (the ones with the logos, pictures, etc. like current boxes/blisters) and bulk packs (plain base cardboard/plastic packaging with just SKUs and identifiers). No price break- same product), but only retail stores get the "pretty" ones. (The only worry is that the "generic" packaging may hurt customer perception of value. But those are going to the cheapskates anyway ;-))

**KiloFiX**

But even with different packaging and more onsite support for the LGS, aren't folks still going to end up buying from Online?

Like sure, they'll look at the cool boxes at the LGS and play tournaments at the LGS but they'll buy everything from Online.

Unless, as others have said, all the LGS should just get out of the business.

I'm not supporting PP's take on this but it is a hard problem to solve for the business, like if you are PP or an LGS.

**hotsauceman1**

The thing is PP offers a substandard product. Take a look at the knight compared to any of their collasals. The knight beats them out of the water. But they offer them at the same pricepoint. Not to mention just how ugly they can be and how much of a paint they can be to paint.

**warboss**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
What would be more appropriate would be to use a carrot rather than a stick,

give B&M stores access to stuff to help them do what PP says they do, energise communities, run tournament, introduce new players etc

But that would cost them money directly if they were to do it for free whereas demonizing some sellers is free (and only costs them indirectly through lower sales down the line likely made up with a future push for direct to consumer sales at full profit margin). If they offer to sell B&M "good stores" those fancy kits and deals, those poor stores being undercut by the mean online guys can't afford it and the online sellers don't care about the kits. I agree that they should use the carrot but they want their carrot (cake) and to eat it too.

**Mr. Burning**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
The thing is PP offers a substandard product. Take a look at the knight compared to any of their collasals. The knight beats them out of the water. But they offer them at the same pricepoint. Not to mention just how ugly they can be and how much of a paint they can be to paint.

A substandard product and a poorly rendered or sculpted figure are totally different things.

**Chopxsticks**

I know paper cards are alot different than Plastic models, but doesnt Wizards of the Coast send promo cards out all the time, and provide free boosters for stores to give out at events?

**TheWaspinator**

The response to this whole thing might have been a lot better if they had avoided phrases like "parasitic business model". They kind of went out of their way to be insulting.

**ced1106**

KiloFiX wrote:
But even with different packaging and more onsite support for the LGS, aren't folks still going to end up buying from Online?

Good question.

Organized play kits often contain prizes and free items that can't be bought at the LGS or OLGS, so there's that. (They could later sell these items direct, like SPM does with its mini's, to customers who cannot or did not participate in OP.) Wizards does this pretty well with their alternative art cards for Friday Night Magic, as well as prerelease events, which has value for the "Gotta have it now" players. Maybe PP could provide more stuff in an OP box. Since all their models can be still used in play, maybe even a "swag bag" of older models or goodies can be part of support for game store that run events, either for the store or players. The idea, again, is that a LGS cannot compete against the OLGS for the *same product*, so help them provide goods and services that cannot be found at the OLGS. No idea if PP can actually do this, though. It certainly requires resources, such as an employee to organize organized play, product to provide to stores, and a price point LGS will accept. Maybe providing goods directly to LGS via OP and selling items online can lead to the distribution control GW has so PP can better control the prices at which their product is sold, and to whom it is sold to.

**Brennonjw**

As much as I hate to see other companies go this route, I'm kinda glad that there might be something to shut up the stereotypical "anti GW" WM/H fellow.

**Theophony**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
What would be more appropriate would be to use a carrot rather than a stick,

give B&M stores access to stuff to help them do what PP says they do, energise communities, run tournament, introduce new players etc

and if stores are really that critical to their model of trade and play maybe they should think of opening some of their own in areas not served by any (ie NOT the GW model of poach and destroy). Yes I know it's probably not viable, but if they really, truly think the FLGS is so central they should probably being doing it rather than 'free riding' on MTG sales

Problem with this idea is that both Miniaturemarket and thewarstore have brick and mortar stores as well as online, so they should have access to the same promos.

**ced1106**

Theophony wrote:
Problem with this idea is that both Miniaturemarket and thewarstore have brick and mortar stores as well as online, so they should have access to the same promos.

That's true, but I wouldn't worry about it.

When I ran demos for AEG and WizKids, the manufacturer would send the demo decks and promo items directly to the game stores. Some of them would regularly say that they didn't receive product, or an employee must have misplaced the stock.

Right.

fwiw, Another alternative is to provide the OP product through a volunteer demo program, much like Steve Jackson Games does. SJG is fine with us demo volunteers running events at conventions, Meetups, etc., as well as the FLGS, so we're the ones handing out the promotional items. (SJG also provides promos directly to stores.) With PP's explicit emphasis on supporting the FLGS, I don't really see this happening, though.

**Bandages**

Apologies if this sentiment has already been stated, as I read an earlier post commending the Carrot over stick model, but in my experience Wyrd (Malifaux) seem to have addressed this issue in a far more pragmatic and less hostile way. They consistently run promotions where if you send them a copy of a receipt (over a certain amount) of a Wyrd product from your LWGS, then will send you out a limited edition/day glow model for free. They also send LWGS crew boxes with additional mini’s inside to encourage players to go and visit their local brick and mortar store.
Personally I find this a proactive method, rather than the misguided reactive model that PP have adopted.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Theophony wrote:
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
What would be more appropriate would be to use a carrot rather than a stick,

give B&M stores access to stuff to help them do what PP says they do, energise communities, run tournament, introduce new players etc

and if stores are really that critical to their model of trade and play maybe they should think of opening some of their own in areas not served by any (ie NOT the GW model of poach and destroy). Yes I know it's probably not viable, but if they really, truly think the FLGS is so central they should probably being doing it rather than 'free riding' on MTG sales

Problem with this idea is that both Miniaturemarket and thewarstore have brick and mortar stores as well as online, so they should have access to the same promos.

Certainly an issue if the items are 'just' extra minis, they'd need to come up with stuff that that wasn't just minis (which as you say could be parted out but big online sellers who also have a 'nominal' real world store), but it shouldn't be impossible to come up with stuff that works better in store

or just have travelling reps who show up to organised events with special stuff to sell.... I don't necessarily trust kits posted to stores not to go 'missing' so you would need trustworth reps, that sort of nonsense was one of the reasons GW pulled back and then gave up on widespread tournament support

**streamdragon**

ced1106 wrote:
Organized play kits often contain prizes and free items that can't be bought at the LGS or OLGS, so there's that.

I do not want people to think that Fantasy Flight Games is any different from PP regarding online retailers; we had a big thread where Asmodee basically did the same thing that PP is doing now. My response then was the same as it is now: I do not give a flying crap about your FLGS. That's YOUR FLGS. If you want your FLGS to do well, SUPPORT YOUR FLGS. If the price difference between an OLGS and your FLGS is a couple bucks, spend your money at your FLGS. I used to buy everything from my FLGS because I enjoyed playing there and wanted them to succeed.*

But the post I'm quoting is one thing that FFG does spectacularly well. FLGSs host Store and National championships, for which they receive swag boxes from FFG. There is usually a nominal fee to enter the tournament ($10 at most from what I've seen), and top placers get free stuff like alternate art cards, new range rulers or dice, or whatever FFG feels like making. It gets players in stores, who oftentimes impulse purchase a few things while they're there, and supports an actual play group. It's the sort of things that companies can actually do if they want to support FLGSes.

The issue is that PP and FLGS do not actually give two craps about your FLGS. They give a crap about sales, and they don't much care if those sales are from an FLGS or an OLGS. Ideally, they would push you to their online store (which IIRC was Asmodee's play with FFG) so that they get more of each sale.

**Azazelx**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
GW is a vile, terrible person who looks like Scarlet Johannsen. PP is just a big douche who looks like Ted Cruz.

If GW did not produce some amazing models, no one would buy from them. I personally dislike everything about their business and the people currently running it, but when they squatcanned Tomb Kings I had to run out and buy a Necrosphinx because that is one damn gorgeous model. I've bought and assembled a dozen PP products over the years, and never had close to the same level of enjoyment from them. Combine this with weaker fluff, page 5 attitude, and an absolute bottom tier customer service experience, and I doubt I would ever buy anything of theirs again. Maybe a HIPS mini at rock bottom prices just to see how it goes together.

I had to exalt this.