Xenomancers wrote: hate to break it to you. He is actually buffed as a fighter. Hit him with MOH and he goes to str 9 with the sword which will wound on 3's and he still rerolls 1. The power of the sword though is rolling 6's to wound. D3 mortals each time. So additional attacks really make his beastly. Now that he can fight twice for 3 cp...he going to kill twice as much and maybe more because of other +1 attack abilities. I am having fun not including him in lists right now but holy crap. 20 Gman attacks isn't even fair dude.
JFC! Almost like all that wailing and gnashing of teeth and crying about your nerfed primarch for who knows how many pages was completely baseless! I really wish this would teach you some self awareness but I'm not exactly holding my breath here.
Relax dude. This whole time I admitted there could be more in the codex which could change things. I basically was saying it wasn't looking too good because all the good previous combos were nerfed. Turns out we got some even better combos possibly. I admit I was wrong but I always said I could be wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I didn't even know these strats and it looked like a massive improvement. Just gravis having 3 W would have changed a few games for me with BA.
There is also a stratagem you can use in the SM codex to count as stationary for 1 cp on an infantry unit. Which even you as a BA player can use per the page 8 BRBFAQ. So Ultras don't have a monopoly on aggressors ether.
Xenomancers wrote: Played my first game with Ultra marines vs Custodes. It went surprisingly well. I got to go first. I took 2x batallions so I had 15 CP to start the game. Took an additional relic (seal of oath) so I picked a unit of jetbikers to reroll all hits and wounds. I also took a warlord trait to change a unit to tactical doctrine turn 1.
So I was able to move a 10 man intercessor in range to shoot 40 ap-2 reroll everything bolt guns into a 3 man jetbiker unit. That killed 2 bikes of that bat even in the -1 to hit banner and the prepared positions stratagem. It was insanely powerful in practice. Knights still going be getting wrecked by ultramarines.
Turn 2 I switched to tactical doctrine. Which was kind of underwelming but okay. I was able to move with all my redemptors which ended up slaying hard in CC turn 3. I can definately see how marines who benifit from devestator doctrine are going to be the best though - especially redemptors.
All I can say is the non guilliman build has gone up dramatically. I am really interesting in the iron hands to see what their super doctrine is going to be. We could be looking at a much improved overall space marine experience. Keep in mind I was playing against mono custodes which couldnt really kill my vheicals so my weakness couldn't really be exploited at all.
So, wait a minute, are you saying you actually used the book after all the shouts of " Game over man, Game over ! " and found that it's better than you imagined, and while Gman may have been nerfed, the builds without him have gotten better ? I'm both shocked and amazed. It's almost like waiting to see how something works before freaking out might have some merit to it.
To be fair I didn't have the complete picture and the reviews were pretty terrible as they didn't go into a lot of detail. The biggest upgrade to the codex even with all the bonus rules they got are the stratagem. I mean holy gak there are a lot of stratagems and a lot of them are really good.
Ultramarines in particular are going to be amazing with all their CP generation. Calgar gives you 2 for free and regens on a 5+ so youll likely get one back every turn with that and tiggy with a +1 to cast and a reroll is good for a CP per turn as well with the scryrs gaze spell (which also has a really nice alternate mode which gives you 3 rerolls for a unit of your choice as well). Also without Gman ina list double batallion is in the mix - though I can't really figure out a way to make a brigade work because taking 3 fast attacks (with options you want to take) puts you well over the mark. You can do it - it's just not going to be an ideal list. 2 Batallions allows you to punt the on the units you don't want to take and with clagar and 2 batallions you start with 15 CP. That is a nice amount of CP considering you are going to be getting 1-2 more a turn. Ultramarines have really good stratagems to. The hands down best being the overwatch stratagem which allows you to overwatch with 3 additional units as if they were the target of the charge. This allows you to move up in formation being buffed by all your characters and get into the middle of the board. Even a 3 man custodes biker unit opted not to take a 9 inch charge against me because it just wasn't worth the risk for a long shot.
The ability to take additional warlord traits is fantatic as well because there are a lot of key build defining stratagames as a warlord trait. Like the ability to change to tactic doctrine for 1 unit - very nice. Unhappy about the vet intercessors nerf - I don't think that will be utilized much anymore. However for an additional relic an ultramarine character can give out a 6" +1 attack bubble....1 CP for multiple units to get +1 attack...Okay...GW must really think leadership matters in this game...It does not. You could however make an absolutely crazy melle intercessor army with this build. You'd drop a ton of CP on it but you can have 4 attack intercessors with +1 str from a chaplain dread with vets plus the 6" aura for +1 attack. I don't think it's viable but you could do it. Overall it is exciting to have new builds and have actual stratagems to use. I'll try taking ultras to an ITC and see how it goes in a few weeks. Facing top teir armies might be a completely different experience than facing mono custodies.
EDIT
It's actually more silly. Ultramarines banner also gives +1 attack
So this is pretty funny but you can actually get 20 attacks out of gman in a turn.
7 attacks if he charges
8 for the banner
9 for might of heros
10 for the relic aura.
20 if he fights twice for 3 CP....
Uhhh...what? that could easily kill 2 knights.
I don't think you can gain more than 1CP per battle round as per the tactical restraint rule.
You can only refund 1 CP a turn but generating CP is not limited. I don't have the FAQ on this but confirmed with a bunch of ITC guys. I could be wrong - I'll look that up for clarification.
TACTICAL RESTRAINT
There are several Warlord Traits, Relics, psychic powers and abilities that give you a chance to gain or refund Command Points. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 Command Point per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source, and Command Points that are spent on Stratagems that are not used during a battle round, such as those that are used ‘before the battle’, can never be refunded.
This might be more a YMDC thread but GW did have a do over on this and still managed to miss a few things.
But yeah it's the only thing that does make me a little sad that calgar got that as his mandatory warlord trait.
I'm also mildly annoyed that Tiggy can not know both indomitus ans Librarious powers.
Kows Smite and either three psychic powers from the librarius discipline or three psychic powers from the indomitus disapline
, to me that reads as either or no mix and matching.
English RAW would be one or the other you are right but these are English people - you never know what they mean. You'd think a chief librarian would be able to pick and choose like any number of psykers that can pick from 2 or 3 disciplines.
Kows Smite and either three psychic powers from the librarius discipline or three psychic powers from the indomitus disapline
, to me that reads as either or no mix and matching.
English RAW would be one or the other you are right but these are English people - you never know what they mean. You'd think a chief librarian would be able to pick and choose like any number of psykers that can pick from 2 or 3 disciplines.
Probably for balance purposes. It's silly but I'm fine with it.
Martel732 wrote: I didn't even know these strats and it looked like a massive improvement. Just gravis having 3 W would have changed a few games for me with BA.
There is also a stratagem you can use in the SM codex to count as stationary for 1 cp on an infantry unit. Which even you as a BA player can use per the page 8 BRBFAQ. So Ultras don't have a monopoly on aggressors ether.
That one is only for the purposes of Bolter Discipline, Aggressors are unaffected.
Martel732 wrote: Just picked up codex. Running as successors for now.
I'm curious what rules you're looking at. I'm going White Scars and Black Templars for my melee stuff, but for my shooty armies I'm going the +1 to cover outside 12" + the 3" range bonus.
Xenomancers wrote: hate to break it to you. He is actually buffed as a fighter. Hit him with MOH and he goes to str 9 with the sword which will wound on 3's and he still rerolls 1. The power of the sword though is rolling 6's to wound. D3 mortals each time. So additional attacks really make his beastly. Now that he can fight twice for 3 cp...he going to kill twice as much and maybe more because of other +1 attack abilities. I am having fun not including him in lists right now but holy crap. 20 Gman attacks isn't even fair dude.
JFC! Almost like all that wailing and gnashing of teeth and crying about your nerfed primarch for who knows how many pages was completely baseless! I really wish this would teach you some self awareness but I'm not exactly holding my breath here.
Relax dude. This whole time I admitted there could be more in the codex which could change things. I basically was saying it wasn't looking too good because all the good previous combos were nerfed. Turns out we got some even better combos possibly. I admit I was wrong but I always said I could be wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I didn't even know these strats and it looked like a massive improvement. Just gravis having 3 W would have changed a few games for me with BA.
There is also a stratagem you can use in the SM codex to count as stationary for 1 cp on an infantry unit. Which even you as a BA player can use per the page 8 BRBFAQ. So Ultras don't have a monopoly on aggressors ether.
No this whole time you were saying how SM are GAK tier and nothing can redeem it because repulsor & plus g man nerf....
But whatever. I'm glad you came around to seeing how srong the new SM is looking.
Martel732 wrote: Just picked up codex. Running as successors for now.
I'm curious what rules you're looking at. I'm going White Scars and Black Templars for my melee stuff, but for my shooty armies I'm going the +1 to cover outside 12" + the 3" range bonus.
I'm trying to be as BA as possible. Hungry for battle and Whirlwind of Rage. I don't really like doing this, but after nearly a decade, I'm not going to not do it.
Martel732 wrote: Just picked up codex. Running as successors for now.
I'm curious what rules you're looking at. I'm going White Scars and Black Templars for my melee stuff, but for my shooty armies I'm going the +1 to cover outside 12" + the 3" range bonus.
I'm trying to be as BA as possible. Hungry for battle and Whirlwind of Rage. I don't really like doing this, but after nearly a decade, I'm not going to not do it.
Make the white scars sucessor for the super buff combat doctrine if your wanting to be as blood angles like as possible and you'll have dudes that hit like a truck in CC sadly though its T3+ only though.
Martel732 wrote: I didn't get the extra supplements. I'm just working with the base book. Good enough for me atm.
most of the reviews have covered the rule I'm sure you can find it somewhere if you want to test it out before you hit up and event. As that +1D to CC attacks sounds very BA.
Xenomancers wrote: hate to break it to you. He is actually buffed as a fighter. Hit him with MOH and he goes to str 9 with the sword which will wound on 3's and he still rerolls 1. The power of the sword though is rolling 6's to wound. D3 mortals each time. So additional attacks really make his beastly. Now that he can fight twice for 3 cp...he going to kill twice as much and maybe more because of other +1 attack abilities. I am having fun not including him in lists right now but holy crap. 20 Gman attacks isn't even fair dude.
JFC! Almost like all that wailing and gnashing of teeth and crying about your nerfed primarch for who knows how many pages was completely baseless! I really wish this would teach you some self awareness but I'm not exactly holding my breath here.
Relax dude. This whole time I admitted there could be more in the codex which could change things. I basically was saying it wasn't looking too good because all the good previous combos were nerfed. Turns out we got some even better combos possibly. I admit I was wrong but I always said I could be wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I didn't even know these strats and it looked like a massive improvement. Just gravis having 3 W would have changed a few games for me with BA.
There is also a stratagem you can use in the SM codex to count as stationary for 1 cp on an infantry unit. Which even you as a BA player can use per the page 8 BRBFAQ. So Ultras don't have a monopoly on aggressors ether.
Xeno dude, were you ignoring the +1 AP on all weapons and the +1 attack and the double shots on all bolters if not moving this whole time?
Xenomancers wrote: Played my first game with Ultra marines vs Custodes. It went surprisingly well. I got to go first. I took 2x batallions so I had 15 CP to start the game. Took an additional relic (seal of oath) so I picked a unit of jetbikers to reroll all hits and wounds. I also took a warlord trait to change a unit to tactical doctrine turn 1.
So I was able to move a 10 man intercessor in range to shoot 40 ap-2 reroll everything bolt guns into a 3 man jetbiker unit. That killed 2 bikes of that bat even in the -1 to hit banner and the prepared positions stratagem. It was insanely powerful in practice. Knights still going be getting wrecked by ultramarines.
Turn 2 I switched to tactical doctrine. Which was kind of underwelming but okay. I was able to move with all my redemptors which ended up slaying hard in CC turn 3. I can definately see how marines who benifit from devestator doctrine are going to be the best though - especially redemptors.
All I can say is the non guilliman build has gone up dramatically. I am really interesting in the iron hands to see what their super doctrine is going to be. We could be looking at a much improved overall space marine experience. Keep in mind I was playing against mono custodes which couldnt really kill my vheicals so my weakness couldn't really be exploited at all.
So, wait a minute, are you saying you actually used the book after all the shouts of " Game over man, Game over ! " and found that it's better than you imagined, and while Gman may have been nerfed, the builds without him have gotten better ? I'm both shocked and amazed. It's almost like waiting to see how something works before freaking out might have some merit to it.
To be fair I didn't have the complete picture and the reviews were pretty terrible as they didn't go into a lot of detail. The biggest upgrade to the codex even with all the bonus rules they got are the stratagem. I mean holy gak there are a lot of stratagems and a lot of them are really good.
Ultramarines in particular are going to be amazing with all their CP generation. Calgar gives you 2 for free and regens on a 5+ so youll likely get one back every turn with that and tiggy with a +1 to cast and a reroll is good for a CP per turn as well with the scryrs gaze spell (which also has a really nice alternate mode which gives you 3 rerolls for a unit of your choice as well). Also without Gman ina list double batallion is in the mix - though I can't really figure out a way to make a brigade work because taking 3 fast attacks (with options you want to take) puts you well over the mark. You can do it - it's just not going to be an ideal list. 2 Batallions allows you to punt the on the units you don't want to take and with clagar and 2 batallions you start with 15 CP. That is a nice amount of CP considering you are going to be getting 1-2 more a turn. Ultramarines have really good stratagems to. The hands down best being the overwatch stratagem which allows you to overwatch with 3 additional units as if they were the target of the charge. This allows you to move up in formation being buffed by all your characters and get into the middle of the board. Even a 3 man custodes biker unit opted not to take a 9 inch charge against me because it just wasn't worth the risk for a long shot.
The ability to take additional warlord traits is fantatic as well because there are a lot of key build defining stratagames as a warlord trait. Like the ability to change to tactic doctrine for 1 unit - very nice. Unhappy about the vet intercessors nerf - I don't think that will be utilized much anymore. However for an additional relic an ultramarine character can give out a 6" +1 attack bubble....1 CP for multiple units to get +1 attack...Okay...GW must really think leadership matters in this game...It does not. You could however make an absolutely crazy melle intercessor army with this build. You'd drop a ton of CP on it but you can have 4 attack intercessors with +1 str from a chaplain dread with vets plus the 6" aura for +1 attack. I don't think it's viable but you could do it. Overall it is exciting to have new builds and have actual stratagems to use. I'll try taking ultras to an ITC and see how it goes in a few weeks. Facing top teir armies might be a completely different experience than facing mono custodies.
EDIT
It's actually more silly. Ultramarines banner also gives +1 attack
So this is pretty funny but you can actually get 20 attacks out of gman in a turn.
7 attacks if he charges
8 for the banner
9 for might of heros
10 for the relic aura.
20 if he fights twice for 3 CP....
Uhhh...what? that could easily kill 2 knights.
To be equally fair, the lack of a clear and full picture is exactly why I and some others said to chill and wait and see what was up before enter full on panic mode. So all I can hope is you learned to have all the facts in front of you before making a judgement. If you did, this has all been worthwhile. If not, it'll happen every time incomplete information appears.
Maybe, but maybe he'll really learn this time ? I have hope, we can all choose the better path of greater understanding. If not, I hope everyone remembers this very long example of why not to make judgement without all the facts and reminds him.
Y’all ease up on xeno. He publicly admitted he was wrong and that’s more than most are willing to do.
This is going to be ugly though if this keeps up. I’m pretty much living in fear of the Iron hands supplement and I’m going to bring out the old metal dreadnought for any Imperial Fist forces.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Y’all ease up on xeno. He publicly admitted he was wrong and that’s more than most are willing to do.
This is going to be ugly though if this keeps up. I’m pretty much living in fear of the Iron hands supplement and I’m going to bring out the old metal dreadnought for any Imperial Fist forces.
Totally depends if any other Codex gets the Mehroyn treatment. Which I doubt. Aren't the next two releases Dark Angels and Blood Angels?
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Y’all ease up on xeno. He publicly admitted he was wrong and that’s more than most are willing to do.
This is going to be ugly though if this keeps up. I’m pretty much living in fear of the Iron hands supplement and I’m going to bring out the old metal dreadnought for any Imperial Fist forces.
Totally depends if any other Codex gets the Mehroyn treatment. Which I doubt. Aren't the next two releases Dark Angels and Blood Angels?
no one knows, the next relase of any SUBSTANCE is gonna be sisters of battle.
What vanilla had to do to really compete in 7th was pretty absurd. Do you know how many white rhinos there were at half price books after 8th dropped? Sheesh. Marines really haven't been truly solid in quite a while. But this book is pretty nasty.
Well, yes. I can sympathize, as Capt Smash has gotten very monotonous as well. It was hard to play that codex in the same edition as GK, SW, BA, and IG having obnoxious lists.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Chaos has been salty since they lost the 3.5 codex. I doubt the trend will break soon, this most current action assures it.
And as I keep saying, it's because the CSM is written as Spiky Marines instead of Legion Marines, which needs to be the focus. Everyone needs Vet stats minimum, first and foremost, and make Chosen the core Troop choice rather than the damn Chaos Marine entry that shouldn't exist.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Chaos has been salty since they lost the 3.5 codex. I doubt the trend will break soon, this most current action assures it.
And as I keep saying, it's because the CSM is written as Spiky Marines instead of Legion Marines, which needs to be the focus. Everyone needs Vet stats minimum, first and foremost, and make Chosen the core Troop choice rather than the damn Chaos Marine entry that shouldn't exist.
except that the vast majority of warbands, even legion warbands aren't made up of super experianced heresy era marines with thousands of years of experiance under their belt
Next realease should be the remainining codex compliant chapters. Probably every 2 weeks. Then I would expect sisters and possibly dark angels. At which point I wouldn't be surprised if the lion wakes up.
Xenomancers wrote: hate to break it to you. He is actually buffed as a fighter. Hit him with MOH and he goes to str 9 with the sword which will wound on 3's and he still rerolls 1. The power of the sword though is rolling 6's to wound. D3 mortals each time. So additional attacks really make his beastly. Now that he can fight twice for 3 cp...he going to kill twice as much and maybe more because of other +1 attack abilities. I am having fun not including him in lists right now but holy crap. 20 Gman attacks isn't even fair dude.
JFC! Almost like all that wailing and gnashing of teeth and crying about your nerfed primarch for who knows how many pages was completely baseless! I really wish this would teach you some self awareness but I'm not exactly holding my breath here.
Relax dude. This whole time I admitted there could be more in the codex which could change things. I basically was saying it wasn't looking too good because all the good previous combos were nerfed. Turns out we got some even better combos possibly. I admit I was wrong but I always said I could be wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I didn't even know these strats and it looked like a massive improvement. Just gravis having 3 W would have changed a few games for me with BA.
There is also a stratagem you can use in the SM codex to count as stationary for 1 cp on an infantry unit. Which even you as a BA player can use per the page 8 BRBFAQ. So Ultras don't have a monopoly on aggressors ether.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Chaos has been salty since they lost the 3.5 codex. I doubt the trend will break soon, this most current action assures it.
And as I keep saying, it's because the CSM is written as Spiky Marines instead of Legion Marines, which needs to be the focus. Everyone needs Vet stats minimum, first and foremost, and make Chosen the core Troop choice rather than the damn Chaos Marine entry that shouldn't exist.
except that the vast majority of warbands, even legion warbands aren't made up of super experianced heresy era marines with thousands of years of experiance under their belt
Depends on the source.
I'd say from Traitor Legions on up until now CSM had nothing to complain and I didn't see much complaining in that time. With the update now it's hard to not feel a little jealous, but our models still look better and we'll do just fine.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Chaos has been salty since they lost the 3.5 codex. I doubt the trend will break soon, this most current action assures it.
And as I keep saying, it's because the CSM is written as Spiky Marines instead of Legion Marines, which needs to be the focus. Everyone needs Vet stats minimum, first and foremost, and make Chosen the core Troop choice rather than the damn Chaos Marine entry that shouldn't exist.
except that the vast majority of warbands, even legion warbands aren't made up of super experianced heresy era marines with thousands of years of experiance under their belt
See, you need to abandon the whole "warband" mindset that's used for those from the non Legions. They need to be handled in the main Vanilla codex, full stop. There's no reason a Renegade Chapter can suddenly get access to that many Daemon Engines and Autocannons or lose their Apothecaries...
No. Page dedicated to how to switch keywords, which isn't terribly hard.
The core of the Legion forces IS The Veterans Of The Long War. They used to be near the equivalent of having Vet stats in the first place, whether it be by having A2 or an extra combat weapon. What HAPPENED is GW trying to make the codex represent everything, even though there are actual consistency issues I listed. Now we're stuck with The Purge not acting like Death Guard, even though they're from the fething Death Guard in the first place.
Assault Marines w/ Jump Packs stayed the same price, 15 a pop. With the Born in the Saddle Strategem, there's a strong case for bikes. All they lose is fly, but for 8 more points you get an extra wound, an extra toughness, RF2 bolters instead of pistols (and if you are WS or UM why do you want pistols?), a bit more movement and access to more special weapons (Plasma Guns, hooo)
Because Pistols and the WS version of Scions loves the Assault Doctrine? I think. That said I also think I'd prefer the bike and a chainsword to the bike and a pistol even in Assault Doctrine.
Confirmed that the Hunter/Stalker strat just specifies models with Fly, but it's +1 to hit, +1 to wound, and double damage. That's kind of silly for a single cp.
Only double damage on a specific unmodified wound roll. I wouldn't use it on a Hunter, but on a Stalker with two Icarus Storm Cannons it starts looking pretty nasty.
If you want a silly Stratagem, try checking out the Hunter-Slayer strat replacement for Hunter Killer missiles on Repulsors. While turning the Hunter Killer into a Strat instead of a points cost is nice for those Once Per Game things, having to fire it with your opponent model's Ballistic Skill is a little silly. I'm not entirely sure why it's more likely to hit Mortarion than a slightly damaged Warlord Titan.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Chaos has been salty since they lost the 3.5 codex. I doubt the trend will break soon, this most current action assures it.
And as I keep saying, it's because the CSM is written as Spiky Marines instead of Legion Marines, which needs to be the focus. Everyone needs Vet stats minimum, first and foremost, and make Chosen the core Troop choice rather than the damn Chaos Marine entry that shouldn't exist.
except that the vast majority of warbands, even legion warbands aren't made up of super experianced heresy era marines with thousands of years of experiance under their belt
See, you need to abandon the whole "warband" mindset that's used for those from the non Legions. They need to be handled in the main Vanilla codex, full stop. There's no reason a Renegade Chapter can suddenly get access to that many Daemon Engines and Autocannons or lose their Apothecaries...
No. Page dedicated to how to switch keywords, which isn't terribly hard.
The core of the Legion forces IS The Veterans Of The Long War. They used to be near the equivalent of having Vet stats in the first place, whether it be by having A2 or an extra combat weapon. What HAPPENED is GW trying to make the codex represent everything, even though there are actual consistency issues I listed. Now we're stuck with The Purge not acting like Death Guard, even though they're from the fething Death Guard in the first place.
ohh don't get me wrong IMHOCSMs NEED to get their chainsword AND Boltgun back. I agree 100% with that.
Xenomancers wrote: Next realease should be the remainining codex compliant chapters. Probably every 2 weeks. Then I would expect sisters and possibly dark angels. At which point I wouldn't be surprised if the lion wakes up.
Please... No...
I mean I'd stoked for Sisters to get their line but for the love of whatever deity you pick can Xeno get a decent release? I'm coming to peace with my Resin/Metal aspect warriors and phoenix lord but I'm beyond burnt out on loyalist (and yes Im salty from my CSM codex 2.0 being a bit of a wash out)
Xenomancers wrote: Next realease should be the remainining codex compliant chapters. Probably every 2 weeks. Then I would expect sisters and possibly dark angels. At which point I wouldn't be surprised if the lion wakes up.
Please... No...
I mean I'd stoked for Sisters to get their line but for the love of whatever deity you pick can Xeno get a decent release? I'm coming to peace with my Resin/Metal aspect warriors and phoenix lord but I'm beyond burnt out on loyalist (and yes Im salty from my CSM codex 2.0 being a bit of a wash out)
The prediction is based on whats already been announced. They didn't come out and say 6 supplements, but the picture was UM, WS, and 4 redacted. So far we've only gotten a couple characters, the Warsuit and Tiggy on model releases, still no Impulsors, Incursors, the new Phobos units etc. The Warsuit and Shadowspear characters are only on Pre-Order now. We've got several weeks of rollouts. If we're LUCKY the next two Supplements go on Pre-order next week, MAYBE with a new sculpt of that codex's characters, and HOPEFULLY with one more toy from the already announced pipeline. More likely it's just a supplement, some themed dice, and MAYBE a new sculpt and/or a Primaris'ed character. We could be looking at 2 months just to get the new supplements and boxes out. 4 books left, one every other week is 8 weeks. That gets us into October, and we already heard Sisters were coming this year. Not a whole lot of "this year" left in October.
I don't think sisters will be this year at all. This psychic Awakening is this fall so it depends on how big this release will be but they also haven't told up it'd be this year iirc. I'm guessing they'll be a February at the earliest
BrianDavion wrote: and gives CSM players a reason to be seriously salty if thats the case. it's 6th/7th ed all over again for them if true
It's ok, the bitterness really helps you forge that narrative
After i looked at your pic, yes, checks out i guess
Automatically Appended Next Post:
fraser1191 wrote: I don't think sisters will be this year at all. This psychic Awakening is this fall so it depends on how big this release will be but they also haven't told up it'd be this year iirc. I'm guessing they'll be a February at the earliest
Xenomancers wrote: Next realease should be the remainining codex compliant chapters. Probably every 2 weeks. Then I would expect sisters and possibly dark angels. At which point I wouldn't be surprised if the lion wakes up.
Please... No...
I mean I'd stoked for Sisters to get their line but for the love of whatever deity you pick can Xeno get a decent release? I'm coming to peace with my Resin/Metal aspect warriors and phoenix lord but I'm beyond burnt out on loyalist (and yes Im salty from my CSM codex 2.0 being a bit of a wash out)
TBF most xenos don't need an rules update, what they need is some serious model support.
I mean i can go drinking with most of the aspect line, as could i with the old csm set.
I’m so keen to see how BA are updated. Would really love for their doctrine to work as stages of the Red Thirst.
Or even if there were negatives but the effects were cumulative. Like the first stage just gives you the chapter tactic of +1 to wound on the charge. Then the second stage gives you that +re-roll charges but you can’t retreat from combat. Then the third gives you an additional +1 attack, -1AP in melee and +1dmg, but you have to shoot and/or charge the closest enemy unit (and can’t retreat still). That kind of thing but obviously balanced right haha.
Or just bonuses... obviously that’s be sweet too.
ThatMG wrote: Talking about chaos I think the Troops options for CSM should be
Legion Marines
Renegade Marines
Chaos Cuultists
And key into those rules. Basically Legion marines are the Chosen datasheet. They could also use some quality buffs.
SM + Primaris = the hot stuff right now
CSM + Chaos = the hot stuff should be.
I personally do hate the design behind the whole warbands of chaos design the infamous writer did.
Chaos should be more closer to what the Horus Hersey books where like on a power level kind of thing with "flavour" added for the corruption of chaos.
Marines SHOULD be scared of Chaos Armies. Rather than view them as a minor speed bumb or "spikey/edgy marines"
Scratch the cultists.
They should be in a lost and damned /R&H dex.
Instead go for specific auxilia for certain legions.
(cannonfodder for IW, Infiltrators for AL, Crusaders for WB.etc)
BrianDavion wrote: codex lost and the damned is something 40k really could use.
Well it exists, just the gw main ruleteam feth up deliberately on it cus it is fw, ergo Office politics.
not the same thing.
It is though.
Or have you forgotten what IA13 was?
I don't consider a forge world list and pure forge world resin to be ion par with a codex and plastic support. please understand I'm not saying I'd refuse to play agaisnt "one of those FW lists" just that a codex and plastic line leads to greater supprot and accessability
I don't consider a forge world list and pure forge world resin to be ion par with a codex and plastic support. please understand I'm not saying I'd refuse to play agaisnt "one of those FW lists" just that a codex and plastic line leads to greater supprot and accessability
"I am not an elitist, i just deem it good that the GW main rule team deliberatly messes up FW lists. I also find it great that the replacement for R&H / lost and the damned is an unimaginative Traitor guard clone that lacks any depth of the former IA books."
The xenos army that needs an update the most is Nids and Crons. Would be great if they started there but I doubt it. Logistically it would make the most sense if they updated all codex based on the previous release schedule.
ThatMG wrote: Talking about chaos I think the Troops options for CSM should be
Legion Marines
Renegade Marines
Chaos Cuultists
And key into those rules. Basically Legion marines are the Chosen datasheet. They could also use some quality buffs.
SM + Primaris = the hot stuff right now
CSM + Chaos = the hot stuff should be.
I personally do hate the design behind the whole warbands of chaos design the infamous writer did.
Chaos should be more closer to what the Horus Hersey books where like on a power level kind of thing with "flavour" added for the corruption of chaos.
Marines SHOULD be scared of Chaos Armies. Rather than view them as a minor speed bumb or "spikey/edgy marines"
Scratch the cultists.
They should be in a lost and damned /R&H dex.
Instead go for specific auxilia for certain legions.
(cannonfodder for IW, Infiltrators for AL, Crusaders for WB.etc)
In my ideal world, Cultists would have an ability to block Astartes units like they were Characters for targeting purposes, and it stops the moment they get to a certain number of models in the unit, like 5 or so. THAT would be interesting at least.
Still interesting though. The CC weapon used to be more expensive than a rocket but now with it being about the same price and getting 5 attacks on the charge....I think I am gonna have to go close combat weapon. You also get a storm bolter with that which isn't bad at all on a dread ESP if you are in tactical doctrine (which as Ultras I will be).
Xenomancers wrote: Still interesting though. The CC weapon used to be more expensive than a rocket but now with it being about the same price and getting 5 attacks on the charge....I think I am gonna have to go close combat weapon. You also get a storm bolter with that which isn't bad at all on a dread ESP if you are in tactical doctrine (which as Ultras I will be).
It makes White Scars and Black Templars Dreads that much better
Xenomancers wrote: Still interesting though. The CC weapon used to be more expensive than a rocket but now with it being about the same price and getting 5 attacks on the charge....I think I am gonna have to go close combat weapon. You also get a storm bolter with that which isn't bad at all on a dread ESP if you are in tactical doctrine (which as Ultras I will be).
It makes White Scars and Black Templars Dreads that much better
Really regretting gluing on my rockets on :(. I was afraid of losing them because they kept falling off.
Xenomancers wrote: The xenos army that needs an update the most is Nids and Crons. Would be great if they started there but I doubt it. Logistically it would make the most sense if they updated all codex based on the previous release schedule.
Would love it if Nids got an update, might convince me to start a small collection. I like their premise but I just can't get myself to really like their models, they just seem... subpar compared to wat GW puts out these days. Now I know most Nid sculpts are probably quite old but still. An update would be very welcome.
inceptor's assault bolters falling by two points and Space Marine Sternguard being basically absolutely dirt cheap makes tactical marines far easier to spam for CPs than intercessors.
Xenomancers wrote: Still interesting though. The CC weapon used to be more expensive than a rocket but now with it being about the same price and getting 5 attacks on the charge....I think I am gonna have to go close combat weapon. You also get a storm bolter with that which isn't bad at all on a dread ESP if you are in tactical doctrine (which as Ultras I will be).
It makes White Scars and Black Templars Dreads that much better
If you can get them to stick around until they reach CC. Standard dreads are so squishy I'd still go for twinlas/ ML even on my White Scars successor unless I know my opponent has a CC focused army. I wonder if their outflank stratagem is going to get FAQ'ed to only allow infantry like the Space Wolves' version or if the intent was really to allow you to outflank a dreadnought, in which case a Redemptor or Ironclad might become an interesting option. And my Relic Contemptor with double chainfist and double plasma blastgun that can reroll it's own 1s will probably become a core part of my lists then
The only non-FW "dreadnought" I currently see as truly viable for CC is the Invictor.
Xenomancers wrote: The xenos army that needs an update the most is Nids and Crons. Would be great if they started there but I doubt it. Logistically it would make the most sense if they updated all codex based on the previous release schedule.
Would love it if Nids got an update, might convince me to start a small collection. I like their premise but I just can't get myself to really like their models, they just seem... subpar compared to wat GW puts out these days. Now I know most Nid sculpts are probably quite old but still. An update would be very welcome.
Tyranids ?
The rules and the models are in a great shape I think.
Necrons may use some new rules and models (ghost ark oh my God what were they thinking about when they made this ... Thing)
Necrons and Tyranids are mostly plastic already though, aside from some characters I think. Flayed Ones need plastic minis and a refresh of Destroyers could be nice, add a CC version. Bring Pariahs back if you like. Nothing major though in my view. I'm not familiar with Tyranids so I'm not sure there, but they got a lot of plastic in 6th/7th edition and have quite a large roster.
Craftworlds on the other hand have a lot of failcast still. And Dark Eldar overall have few models, at least for their codex structure of being 3 seperate armies, basically. On top of that they also have a lot of failcast left, even though their models are from 5th edition.
Xenomancers wrote: Still interesting though. The CC weapon used to be more expensive than a rocket but now with it being about the same price and getting 5 attacks on the charge....I think I am gonna have to go close combat weapon. You also get a storm bolter with that which isn't bad at all on a dread ESP if you are in tactical doctrine (which as Ultras I will be).
It makes White Scars and Black Templars Dreads that much better
If you can get them to stick around until they reach CC. Standard dreads are so squishy I'd still go for twinlas/ ML even on my White Scars successor unless I know my opponent has a CC focused army. I wonder if their outflank stratagem is going to get FAQ'ed to only allow infantry like the Space Wolves' version or if the intent was really to allow you to outflank a dreadnought, in which case a Redemptor or Ironclad might become an interesting option. And my Relic Contemptor with double chainfist and double plasma blastgun that can reroll it's own 1s will probably become a core part of my lists then
The only non-FW "dreadnought" I currently see as truly viable for CC is the Invictor.
Trust me I only go Relic Contemptor for melee simple because they don't degrade in movement. Iron Hands would be slower BUT they're opening options at least.
Xenomancers wrote: The xenos army that needs an update the most is Nids and Crons. Would be great if they started there but I doubt it. Logistically it would make the most sense if they updated all codex based on the previous release schedule.
Would love it if Nids got an update, might convince me to start a small collection. I like their premise but I just can't get myself to really like their models, they just seem... subpar compared to wat GW puts out these days. Now I know most Nid sculpts are probably quite old but still. An update would be very welcome.
Tyranids ?
The rules and the models are in a great shape I think.
Necrons may use some new rules and models (ghost ark oh my God what were they thinking about when they made this ... Thing)
They are suffering a lot from rules bloat. Just compare Ironhands trait to Levithan...It's not even close. They have pretty poor relics and warlord traits too. Stratagems are fine but nids could really use some rules updates for units like warriors/raveners and melle beasts.
Crons are in better shape than nids IMO. I'm really not sure why they havn't been more in the competitive scene since their codex dropped. Also another army that lacks a lot of rerolls. I think just making Telsa unmodified 6's would make the army a lot better. Small things like that would help a lot.
Xenomancers wrote: Still interesting though. The CC weapon used to be more expensive than a rocket but now with it being about the same price and getting 5 attacks on the charge....I think I am gonna have to go close combat weapon. You also get a storm bolter with that which isn't bad at all on a dread ESP if you are in tactical doctrine (which as Ultras I will be).
It makes White Scars and Black Templars Dreads that much better
If you can get them to stick around until they reach CC. Standard dreads are so squishy I'd still go for twinlas/ ML even on my White Scars successor unless I know my opponent has a CC focused army. I wonder if their outflank stratagem is going to get FAQ'ed to only allow infantry like the Space Wolves' version or if the intent was really to allow you to outflank a dreadnought, in which case a Redemptor or Ironclad might become an interesting option. And my Relic Contemptor with double chainfist and double plasma blastgun that can reroll it's own 1s will probably become a core part of my lists then
The only non-FW "dreadnought" I currently see as truly viable for CC is the Invictor.
The CC weapon got dropped 10 points and you got an additional CC attack. I think the power has shifted to the CC weapon and since I'm playing Ultras I can move them without penalty. Combined with my redemptors its an insane amount of dread CC ability.
Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
But they end up in top tables as part of soup. So everything is fine and nothing broken, now release more x
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
But they end up in top tables as part of soup. So everything is fine and nothing broken, now release more x
Yes so goes the argument.
Not anymore, they aren't showing up at all due to GSC being massively better going Mono
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
But they end up in top tables as part of soup. So everything is fine and nothing broken, now release more x
Yes so goes the argument.
Not anymore, they aren't showing up at all due to GSC being massively better going Mono
I was sarcastic.
It's literally the same argument over in the csm update thread.
Going along the line :" how dare you complain, you are a soup component for 3 units, your codex is therefore fine and has no internal problems whatsoever! "
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
BrianDavion wrote: codex lost and the damned is something 40k really could use.
Well it exists, just the gw main ruleteam feth up deliberately on it cus it is fw, ergo Office politics.
not the same thing.
It is though.
Or have you forgotten what IA13 was?
I don't consider a forge world list and pure forge world resin to be ion par with a codex and plastic support. please understand I'm not saying I'd refuse to play agaisnt "one of those FW lists" just that a codex and plastic line leads to greater supprot and accessability
I will. When I see FW units or lists, I tell my opponent "No thanks, you win" and go find another person to play. FW is MASSIVELY unbalanced, over powered junk. Leviathan Dreads just as well forego rolling to hit and say pick a unit and deal your damage.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
Remember csm didn't get the discounts or all unit applying traits.
It isn't unlikely that in a mono scenario he got out shot at all.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
His list consisted of a Hive Tyrant (gun variant) Devil Gaunts, Exocrine, a Tyrannofex with the acid flamer, some hive guard, some zoanthropes for buffs, and a squadron of warriors with death spitters and bone swords tunneled with a Trygon. Seems a lot more diverse than what you are suggesting.
BrianDavion wrote: codex lost and the damned is something 40k really could use.
Well it exists, just the gw main ruleteam feth up deliberately on it cus it is fw, ergo Office politics.
not the same thing.
It is though.
Or have you forgotten what IA13 was?
I don't consider a forge world list and pure forge world resin to be ion par with a codex and plastic support. please understand I'm not saying I'd refuse to play agaisnt "one of those FW lists" just that a codex and plastic line leads to greater supprot and accessability
I will. When I see FW units or lists, I tell my opponent "No thanks, you win" and go find another person to play. FW is MASSIVELY unbalanced, over powered junk. Leviathan Dreads just as well forego rolling to hit and say pick a unit and deal your damage.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
Remember csm didn't get the discounts or all unit applying traits.
It isn't unlikely that in a mono scenario he got out shot at all.
That wasn't really "an update", just the same codex with the new units included. Shame GW decided to sell that "thing"
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits - Horrible Relics - Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units - Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
Remember csm didn't get the discounts or all unit applying traits. It isn't unlikely that in a mono scenario he got out shot at all.
I run BL
Lord DA Sorcerer 30 Chaos Marines 10 Havoks 6 Obliterators 2 Predators
Even with Bolter D I was struggling to kill everything of his. The volume of firepower was intense and I rarely got to take a 3+ save.
BrianDavion wrote: codex lost and the damned is something 40k really could use.
Well it exists, just the gw main ruleteam feth up deliberately on it cus it is fw, ergo Office politics.
not the same thing.
It is though. Or have you forgotten what IA13 was?
I don't consider a forge world list and pure forge world resin to be ion par with a codex and plastic support. please understand I'm not saying I'd refuse to play agaisnt "one of those FW lists" just that a codex and plastic line leads to greater supprot and accessability
I will. When I see FW units or lists, I tell my opponent "No thanks, you win" and go find another person to play. FW is MASSIVELY unbalanced, over powered junk. Leviathan Dreads just as well forego rolling to hit and say pick a unit and deal your damage.
Wait you serious? Let me laugh even louder
Very. Fortunately in our area that is the prevalent opinion, so few of us if any have any FW stuff to begin with. FW is outright banned in one of our local stores.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
Remember csm didn't get the discounts or all unit applying traits.
It isn't unlikely that in a mono scenario he got out shot at all.
That wasn't really "an update", just the same codex with the new units included. Shame GW decided to sell that "thing"
He atleast the marines got finally something unique and usefull traits.
I am happy for that.
However if it is progress or just plain old " feth you i want money or the power-creep feths you " gw strategy remains to be seen.
yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
His list consisted of a Hive Tyrant (gun variant) Devil Gaunts, Exocrine, a Tyrannofex with the acid flamer, some hive guard, some zoanthropes for buffs, and a squadron of warriors with death spitters and bone swords tunneled with a Trygon. Seems a lot more diverse than what you are suggesting.
Hive Tyrant - Decent unit that still costs 220+ points
Devil Gaunts - Pathetic defense at 8 ppm, only "works" when you're going for Trygon tunnel and good luck putting all of 30 near it. Also doesn't benefit from Kronos if Deepstriking
Exocrine - Bad
Tyrannofex - Bad, less bad with Acid Flamer
Hive Guard - The only worthwhile shooting unit Tyr has
Zoanthropes - Meh, they're not a shooting unit but mere support/Smite spam
Warriors - Very bad, moreso after Space Marines buffs that gave their gravis equivalent units the same wounds of Warriors with the added benefit of T5, BS 3+ and a 3+ armor whilst paying almost same prices with much better guns.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
Remember csm didn't get the discounts or all unit applying traits.
It isn't unlikely that in a mono scenario he got out shot at all.
I run BL
Lord
DA Sorcerer
30 Chaos Marines
10 Havoks
6 Obliterators
2 Predators
Even with Bolter D I was struggling to kill everything of his. The volume of firepower was intense and I rarely got to take a 3+ save.
BrianDavion wrote: codex lost and the damned is something 40k really could use.
Well it exists, just the gw main ruleteam feth up deliberately on it cus it is fw, ergo Office politics.
not the same thing.
It is though.
Or have you forgotten what IA13 was?
I don't consider a forge world list and pure forge world resin to be ion par with a codex and plastic support. please understand I'm not saying I'd refuse to play agaisnt "one of those FW lists" just that a codex and plastic line leads to greater supprot and accessability
I will. When I see FW units or lists, I tell my opponent "No thanks, you win" and go find another person to play. FW is MASSIVELY unbalanced, over powered junk. Leviathan Dreads just as well forego rolling to hit and say pick a unit and deal your damage.
Wait you serious?
Let me laugh even louder
Very. Fortunately in our area that is the prevalence opinion, so few of us if any have any FW stuff to begin with. FW is outright banned in one of our local stores.
So what is it, do you consider fw unbalanced now or is it just your area that has a population of people to lazy to actually read the rules for fw?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
I'd say a number of books have issues in regards to needing or doing well with a good quality update. Saying which ones need it more may speak more of bias than actual need.
Like most of the marine books are meh. Guard, well they soup well, as we've seen, the book as a whole has a great many unseen and just dumpy units that could be touched up as well as relics, strats etc.
Tyranids have their issues, the Eldars, both of them books are fine, but Eldars model line for aspects has sucked for a long time. DE have vast holes in HQ, special character and some options would be great for them too.
Performing on the table isn't the only thing that says if a faction needs a new book. You can have a functional book, with a very bland play style and feel. Like the 5th edtion CSM book. Dual lash was a pain in the rear, but the army itself was boring bad.
I really think if we're being honest we'd all agree, the sisters are the most in need of a release though. Which is supposed to be this fall/end of year if our old info is still accurate.
BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
Our group voted two years ago to ban FW from our games, the store supported that action. Hasn't anything to do with sales.
Lots of people like to try and defend FW as being some poor little company that the main comp poops on all the time. Not me, having something as OP broken as the Leviathan Dreadnought or the Tyranid Dimachaeron, and Tyranid Malanthrope as playable in 40K games takes all the fun right out of them.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
Remember csm didn't get the discounts or all unit applying traits.
It isn't unlikely that in a mono scenario he got out shot at all.
I run BL
Lord
DA Sorcerer
30 Chaos Marines
10 Havoks
6 Obliterators
2 Predators
Even with Bolter D I was struggling to kill everything of his. The volume of firepower was intense and I rarely got to take a 3+ save.
BrianDavion wrote: codex lost and the damned is something 40k really could use.
Well it exists, just the gw main ruleteam feth up deliberately on it cus it is fw, ergo Office politics.
not the same thing.
It is though.
Or have you forgotten what IA13 was?
I don't consider a forge world list and pure forge world resin to be ion par with a codex and plastic support. please understand I'm not saying I'd refuse to play agaisnt "one of those FW lists" just that a codex and plastic line leads to greater supprot and accessability
I will. When I see FW units or lists, I tell my opponent "No thanks, you win" and go find another person to play. FW is MASSIVELY unbalanced, over powered junk. Leviathan Dreads just as well forego rolling to hit and say pick a unit and deal your damage.
Wait you serious?
Let me laugh even louder
Very. Fortunately in our area that is the prevalence opinion, so few of us if any have any FW stuff to begin with. FW is outright banned in one of our local stores.
So what is it, do you consider fw unbalanced now or is it just your area that has a population of people to lazy to actually read the rules for fw?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
Also likely
Do you think a T8 Dread with a 4++ save, hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s to hit and wound with support at S8 with the dmg of the weapon being base two with SIXTEEN shots is "balanced?"
Lord
DA Sorcerer
30 Chaos Marines
10 Havoks
6 Obliterators
2 Predators
Oof no wonder that didn't go in your favour.
Alone the Oblits are too excessive.
Predators are just pathetic.
Havocs are squishy and you had no way of securing them.
30 csm but not in 5 man squads and not 2 battalions.
DA is priced excessively.
Not gonna lie, even my renegades would stand an actual fighting chance here
AngryAngel80 wrote: I'd say a number of books have issues in regards to needing or doing well with a good quality update. Saying which ones need it more may speak more of bias than actual need.
Like most of the marine books are meh. Guard, well they soup well, as we've seen, the book as a whole has a great many unseen and just dumpy units that could be touched up as well as relics, strats etc.
Tyranids have their issues, the Eldars, both of them books are fine, but Eldars model line for aspects has sucked for a long time. DE have vast holes in HQ, special character and some options would be great for them too.
Performing on the table isn't the only thing that says if a faction needs a new book. You can have a functional book, with a very bland play style and feel. Like the 5th edtion CSM book. Dual lash was a pain in the rear, but the army itself was boring bad.
I really think if we're being honest we'd all agree, the sisters are the most in need of a release though. Which is supposed to be this fall/end of year if our old info is still accurate.
What about Eldar, in terms of models and not rules?
BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
Our group voted two years ago to ban FW from our games, the store supported that action. Hasn't anything to do with sales.
Lots of people like to try and defend FW as being some poor little company that the main comp poops on all the time. Not me, having something as OP broken as the Leviathan Dreadnought or the Tyranid Dimachaeron, and Tyranid Malanthrope as playable in 40K games takes all the fun right out of them.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
Remember csm didn't get the discounts or all unit applying traits.
It isn't unlikely that in a mono scenario he got out shot at all.
I run BL
Lord
DA Sorcerer
30 Chaos Marines
10 Havoks
6 Obliterators
2 Predators
Even with Bolter D I was struggling to kill everything of his. The volume of firepower was intense and I rarely got to take a 3+ save.
BrianDavion wrote: codex lost and the damned is something 40k really could use.
Well it exists, just the gw main ruleteam feth up deliberately on it cus it is fw, ergo Office politics.
not the same thing.
It is though.
Or have you forgotten what IA13 was?
I don't consider a forge world list and pure forge world resin to be ion par with a codex and plastic support. please understand I'm not saying I'd refuse to play agaisnt "one of those FW lists" just that a codex and plastic line leads to greater supprot and accessability
I will. When I see FW units or lists, I tell my opponent "No thanks, you win" and go find another person to play. FW is MASSIVELY unbalanced, over powered junk. Leviathan Dreads just as well forego rolling to hit and say pick a unit and deal your damage.
Wait you serious?
Let me laugh even louder
Very. Fortunately in our area that is the prevalence opinion, so few of us if any have any FW stuff to begin with. FW is outright banned in one of our local stores.
So what is it, do you consider fw unbalanced now or is it just your area that has a population of people to lazy to actually read the rules for fw?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
Also likely
Do you think a T8 Dread with a 4++ save, hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s to hit and wound with support at S8 with the dmg of the weapon being base two with SIXTEEN shots is "balanced?"
That is a combination of how many points?
You approach knights levels then and between a leviathan and a knight, let me tell you, the knight nearly always pulls through.
So were you atleast consequent and banned them too?
Lord
DA Sorcerer
30 Chaos Marines
10 Havoks
6 Obliterators
2 Predators
Oof no wonder that didn't go in your favour.
Alone the Oblits are too excessive.
Predators are just pathetic.
Havocs are squishy and you had no way of securing them.
30 csm but not in 5 man squads and not 2 battalions.
DA is priced excessively.
Not gonna lie, even my renegades would stand an actual fighting chance here
Cool. I play with what I have, based on the rule of cool and the models that I like. Not some neckbeards statistics jerkfest.
BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
Our group voted two years ago to ban FW from our games, the store supported that action. Hasn't anything to do with sales.
Lots of people like to try and defend FW as being some poor little company that the main comp poops on all the time. Not me, having something as OP broken as the Leviathan Dreadnought or the Tyranid Dimachaeron, and Tyranid Malanthrope as playable in 40K games takes all the fun right out of them.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
Remember csm didn't get the discounts or all unit applying traits.
It isn't unlikely that in a mono scenario he got out shot at all.
I run BL
Lord
DA Sorcerer
30 Chaos Marines
10 Havoks
6 Obliterators
2 Predators
Even with Bolter D I was struggling to kill everything of his. The volume of firepower was intense and I rarely got to take a 3+ save.
BrianDavion wrote: codex lost and the damned is something 40k really could use.
Well it exists, just the gw main ruleteam feth up deliberately on it cus it is fw, ergo Office politics.
not the same thing.
It is though.
Or have you forgotten what IA13 was?
I don't consider a forge world list and pure forge world resin to be ion par with a codex and plastic support. please understand I'm not saying I'd refuse to play agaisnt "one of those FW lists" just that a codex and plastic line leads to greater supprot and accessability
I will. When I see FW units or lists, I tell my opponent "No thanks, you win" and go find another person to play. FW is MASSIVELY unbalanced, over powered junk. Leviathan Dreads just as well forego rolling to hit and say pick a unit and deal your damage.
Wait you serious?
Let me laugh even louder
Very. Fortunately in our area that is the prevalence opinion, so few of us if any have any FW stuff to begin with. FW is outright banned in one of our local stores.
So what is it, do you consider fw unbalanced now or is it just your area that has a population of people to lazy to actually read the rules for fw?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
Also likely
Knights are GW plastic kits, I think they're legal, but no one in our area besides me even owns one. At least not to my knowledge.
Do you think a T8 Dread with a 4++ save, hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s to hit and wound with support at S8 with the dmg of the weapon being base two with SIXTEEN shots is "balanced?"
That is a combination of how many points?
You approach knights levels then and between a leviathan and a knight, let me tell you, the knight nearly always pulls through.
So were you atleast consequent and banned them too?
Lord
DA Sorcerer
30 Chaos Marines
10 Havoks
6 Obliterators
2 Predators
Oof no wonder that didn't go in your favour.
Alone the Oblits are too excessive.
Predators are just pathetic.
Havocs are squishy and you had no way of securing them.
30 csm but not in 5 man squads and not 2 battalions.
DA is priced excessively.
Not gonna lie, even my renegades would stand an actual fighting chance here
Cool. I play with what I have, based on the rule of cool and the models that I like. Not some neckbeards statistics jerkfest.
BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
Our group voted two years ago to ban FW from our games, the store supported that action. Hasn't anything to do with sales.
Lots of people like to try and defend FW as being some poor little company that the main comp poops on all the time. Not me, having something as OP broken as the Leviathan Dreadnought or the Tyranid Dimachaeron, and Tyranid Malanthrope as playable in 40K games takes all the fun right out of them.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
Remember csm didn't get the discounts or all unit applying traits.
It isn't unlikely that in a mono scenario he got out shot at all.
I run BL
Lord
DA Sorcerer
30 Chaos Marines
10 Havoks
6 Obliterators
2 Predators
Even with Bolter D I was struggling to kill everything of his. The volume of firepower was intense and I rarely got to take a 3+ save.
BrianDavion wrote: codex lost and the damned is something 40k really could use.
Well it exists, just the gw main ruleteam feth up deliberately on it cus it is fw, ergo Office politics.
not the same thing.
It is though.
Or have you forgotten what IA13 was?
I don't consider a forge world list and pure forge world resin to be ion par with a codex and plastic support. please understand I'm not saying I'd refuse to play agaisnt "one of those FW lists" just that a codex and plastic line leads to greater supprot and accessability
I will. When I see FW units or lists, I tell my opponent "No thanks, you win" and go find another person to play. FW is MASSIVELY unbalanced, over powered junk. Leviathan Dreads just as well forego rolling to hit and say pick a unit and deal your damage.
Wait you serious?
Let me laugh even louder
Very. Fortunately in our area that is the prevalence opinion, so few of us if any have any FW stuff to begin with. FW is outright banned in one of our local stores.
So what is it, do you consider fw unbalanced now or is it just your area that has a population of people to lazy to actually read the rules for fw?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
Also likely
Knights are GW plastic kits, I think they're legal, but no one in our area besides me even owns one. At least not to my knowledge.
Do you think a T8 Dread with a 4++ save, hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s to hit and wound with support at S8 with the dmg of the weapon being base two with SIXTEEN shots is "balanced?"
That is a combination of how many points?
You approach knights levels then and between a leviathan and a knight, let me tell you, the knight nearly always pulls through.
So were you atleast consequent and banned them too?
[/spoiler]
After hearing that you considered the Malanthrope and especially THE DIMACHAERON overpowered, I think you've got no rights to speak about competitiveness.
Cool. I play with what I have, based on the rule of cool and the models that I like. Not some neckbeards statistics jerkfest.
Nothing wrong with that, and the list certainly looks cool on a board but it has weaknesses that got exploited by the nid player. (I wouldn't play mechanized renegades and heretics if I would care about toptables, but I am capable of seeing issues in lists)
So you didn't get really curbstomped by superior rules though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
After hearing that you considered the Malanthrope and especially THE DIMACHAERON overpowered, I think you've got no rights to speak about competitiveness.
Cool. I play with what I have, based on the rule of cool and the models that I like. Not some neckbeards statistics jerkfest.
Nothing wrong with that, and the list certainly looks cool on a board but it has weaknesses that got exploited by the nid player. (I wouldn't play mechanized renegades and heretics if I would care about toptables, but I am capable of seeing issues in lists)
So you didn't get really curbstomped by superior rules though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
After hearing that you considered the Malanthrope and especially THE DIMACHAERON overpowered, I think you've got no rights to speak about competitiveness.
Erhm who do you meant to talk too?
Just to be clear I wasn't insulting anyone here by using the neckbeard comment. Just wanted to be clear I don't think of 40K in that mindset.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I'd say a number of books have issues in regards to needing or doing well with a good quality update. Saying which ones need it more may speak more of bias than actual need.
Like most of the marine books are meh. Guard, well they soup well, as we've seen, the book as a whole has a great many unseen and just dumpy units that could be touched up as well as relics, strats etc.
Tyranids have their issues, the Eldars, both of them books are fine, but Eldars model line for aspects has sucked for a long time. DE have vast holes in HQ, special character and some options would be great for them too.
Performing on the table isn't the only thing that says if a faction needs a new book. You can have a functional book, with a very bland play style and feel. Like the 5th edtion CSM book. Dual lash was a pain in the rear, but the army itself was boring bad.
I really think if we're being honest we'd all agree, the sisters are the most in need of a release though. Which is supposed to be this fall/end of year if our old info is still accurate.
What about Eldar, in terms of models and not rules?
Yeah I brought up Eldar are in need of models in my response, they haven't been forgotten ! On my best buds plays Eldar and honestly the models they use for the aspects are probably older than a great many 40k players at this point.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I'd say a number of books have issues in regards to needing or doing well with a good quality update. Saying which ones need it more may speak more of bias than actual need.
Like most of the marine books are meh. Guard, well they soup well, as we've seen, the book as a whole has a great many unseen and just dumpy units that could be touched up as well as relics, strats etc.
Tyranids have their issues, the Eldars, both of them books are fine, but Eldars model line for aspects has sucked for a long time. DE have vast holes in HQ, special character and some options would be great for them too.
Performing on the table isn't the only thing that says if a faction needs a new book. You can have a functional book, with a very bland play style and feel. Like the 5th edtion CSM book. Dual lash was a pain in the rear, but the army itself was boring bad.
I really think if we're being honest we'd all agree, the sisters are the most in need of a release though. Which is supposed to be this fall/end of year if our old info is still accurate.
What about Eldar, in terms of models and not rules?
Yeah I brought up Eldar are in need of models in my response, they haven't been forgotten ! On my best buds plays Eldar and honestly the models they use for the aspects are probably older than a great many 40k players at this point.
I am just wondering if the Eldar army needs a port into plastic, or a complete redo.
I am kinda underwhelmed by the Successor Chapter Tactics. I think I am going to go with Rapid Assault and Whirlwind of Rage. I actually do make use of a good number of Assault weapons so Rapid Assault seems okay-ish. It also reminds me of Bolt Action's United States national trait. So there's that too.
Part of me wanted to go with Stealthly, but that one really did seem like a waste as I generally have my units in cover anyways as a SOP. Instead, I decided on Whirlwind to make my Reivers, and any other unit I often throw into melee, a little better. I might tryout Duelist too and see if I like that one better. In any event, I am not super keen on my second option so I might keep shopping around until I find one that feels like my army.
Part of me wants to just go Raven Guard too as it doesn't feel nearly as OP as it was and still seems pretty useful. I think that largely depends if I do want to give in and just call my army Raptors.
Cool. I play with what I have, based on the rule of cool and the models that I like. Not some neckbeards statistics jerkfest.
Nothing wrong with that, and the list certainly looks cool on a board but it has weaknesses that got exploited by the nid player. (I wouldn't play mechanized renegades and heretics if I would care about toptables, but I am capable of seeing issues in lists)
So you didn't get really curbstomped by superior rules though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
After hearing that you considered the Malanthrope and especially THE DIMACHAERON overpowered, I think you've got no rights to speak about competitiveness.
Erhm who do you meant to talk too?
Just to be clear I wasn't insulting anyone here by using the neckbeard comment. Just wanted to be clear I don't think of 40K in that mindset.
I understood that, i still point out though that you really didn't get curbed because of the rules that supposedly are better for nids.
Also your mindset in regards to FW needs maybee a look at but that is an entirely diffrent subject.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Part of me wants to just go Raven Guard too as it doesn't feel nearly as OP as it was and still seems pretty useful. I think that largely depends if I do want to give in and just call my army Raptors.
Good choice imo, you could also paint Hydra and scales on them , no wait that would be too good
God gw y you so bad at rules writing and coordination of rules writers
BrianDavion wrote: plasma gravis... thats a juicy thought. although unless they where packing plasma canons or something just take hellblasters
Well, we know 2 things:
- Next wave of Primaris is very likely going to be Gravis- focused.
- Fluff has already established that Gravis armor can be modified to withstand a lot of plasma recoil/ heat/ radiation/ whatever (the special helmets on the plasma inceptors).
So I think Plasma Aggressors could be quite likely in the not-too-far future. Possibly the Primaris equivalent to Centurion Devastators (relatively immobile with long-range plasma cannons).
BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
Our group voted two years ago to ban FW from our games, the store supported that action. Hasn't anything to do with sales.
Lots of people like to try and defend FW as being some poor little company that the main comp poops on all the time. Not me, having something as OP broken as the Leviathan Dreadnought or the Tyranid Dimachaeron, and Tyranid Malanthrope as playable in 40K games takes all the fun right out of them.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
Remember csm didn't get the discounts or all unit applying traits.
It isn't unlikely that in a mono scenario he got out shot at all.
I run BL
Lord
DA Sorcerer
30 Chaos Marines
10 Havoks
6 Obliterators
2 Predators
Even with Bolter D I was struggling to kill everything of his. The volume of firepower was intense and I rarely got to take a 3+ save.
BrianDavion wrote: codex lost and the damned is something 40k really could use.
Well it exists, just the gw main ruleteam feth up deliberately on it cus it is fw, ergo Office politics.
not the same thing.
It is though.
Or have you forgotten what IA13 was?
I don't consider a forge world list and pure forge world resin to be ion par with a codex and plastic support. please understand I'm not saying I'd refuse to play agaisnt "one of those FW lists" just that a codex and plastic line leads to greater supprot and accessability
I will. When I see FW units or lists, I tell my opponent "No thanks, you win" and go find another person to play. FW is MASSIVELY unbalanced, over powered junk. Leviathan Dreads just as well forego rolling to hit and say pick a unit and deal your damage.
Wait you serious?
Let me laugh even louder
Very. Fortunately in our area that is the prevalence opinion, so few of us if any have any FW stuff to begin with. FW is outright banned in one of our local stores.
So what is it, do you consider fw unbalanced now or is it just your area that has a population of people to lazy to actually read the rules for fw?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
Also likely
Do you think a T8 Dread with a 4++ save, hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s to hit and wound with support at S8 with the dmg of the weapon being base two with SIXTEEN shots is "balanced?"
See if you actually read their index datasheet instead of spouting random stats.
As your mixing and matching stats to support your view.
The choas version your describing only has a 5++ vrs shooting.
Ok it included shooting weapons but it's 30 points less than a knight with 10 less wounds.
It's other 2 weapons are 18 inch range or less so it has to move and is no longer hitting on a 2+ due to moving with heavy weapons.
The loyalist version is different stats but it's weapons are maximum of 24 inch range and diffrent stats aswell.
Anything sounds broken when you just give it incorrect stats or rules.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
I'm not applying hate, I'm just surprised. An already borderline broken model made even more so with the new balance changes to SM:NuBoys. I don't see how Leviathan gets away with zero changes coming up.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am kinda underwhelmed by the Successor Chapter Tactics. I think I am going to go with Rapid Assault and Whirlwind of Rage. I actually do make use of a good number of Assault weapons so Rapid Assault seems okay-ish. It also reminds me of Bolt Action's United States national trait. So there's that too.
Part of me wanted to go with Stealthly, but that one really did seem like a waste as I generally have my units in cover anyways as a SOP. Instead, I decided on Whirlwind to make my Reivers, and any other unit I often throw into melee, a little better. I might tryout Duelist too and see if I like that one better. In any event, I am not super keen on my second option so I might keep shopping around until I find one that feels like my army.
Part of me wants to just go Raven Guard too as it doesn't feel nearly as OP as it was and still seems pretty useful. I think that largely depends if I do want to give in and just call my army Raptors.
It's weird for me to have the option to customize my chapter trait and not want to use it.
Right now I'm sticking exclusively to Ultramarines and White Scars; partially just because I want to be sure I'm familiar with what they actually do, but also partially because I don't see a combo in the sub-traits (or a non-UM / non-WS main trait for that matter) that's worth giving up all the extra warlord traits, relics, psychic powers, and strats.
I'm not even really sure that the those relics, strats, etc are objectively stronger. I've only played UM so far and I haven't seen any reason to use their relics. On the other hand when I use Squad Doctrine and Master of Strategy to let two units of Aggressors move and double-tap because my opponent stopped just outside 18" on turn 1 I feel like I might be being a TFG.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
I'm not applying hate, I'm just surprised. An already borderline broken model made even more so with the new balance changes to SM:NuBoys. I don't see how Leviathan gets away with zero changes coming up.
Levithians should require a bit more requirements, they already expensive at 300pts. But i mean at this point space marine super heavies are like 500 pts. Fellblades for example super super expensive and are a space marine tank you could take but they are far too weak and their cost too large.
Levithians are Imperial Knights for Space Marines.
I'm not even really sure that the those relics, strats, etc are objectively stronger. I've only played UM so far and I haven't seen any reason to use their relics. On the other hand when I use Squad Doctrine and Master of Strategy to let two units of Aggressors move and double-tap because my opponent stopped just outside 18" on turn 1 I feel like I might be being a TFG.
Adamantium Mantle makes your marines extreemely beefy by the looks of it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
I'm not applying hate, I'm just surprised. An already borderline broken model made even more so with the new balance changes to SM:NuBoys. I don't see how Leviathan gets away with zero changes coming up.
Just out of curiosity, what makes a Leviathan borderline broken? Compared, say, to a Riptide or a Knight?
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am kinda underwhelmed by the Successor Chapter Tactics. I think I am going to go with Rapid Assault and Whirlwind of Rage. I actually do make use of a good number of Assault weapons so Rapid Assault seems okay-ish. It also reminds me of Bolt Action's United States national trait. So there's that too.
Part of me wanted to go with Stealthly, but that one really did seem like a waste as I generally have my units in cover anyways as a SOP. Instead, I decided on Whirlwind to make my Reivers, and any other unit I often throw into melee, a little better. I might tryout Duelist too and see if I like that one better. In any event, I am not super keen on my second option so I might keep shopping around until I find one that feels like my army.
Part of me wants to just go Raven Guard too as it doesn't feel nearly as OP as it was and still seems pretty useful. I think that largely depends if I do want to give in and just call my army Raptors.
It's weird for me to have the option to customize my chapter trait and not want to use it.
Right now I'm sticking exclusively to Ultramarines and White Scars; partially just because I want to be sure I'm familiar with what they actually do, but also partially because I don't see a combo in the sub-traits (or a non-UM / non-WS main trait for that matter) that's worth giving up all the extra warlord traits, relics, psychic powers, and strats.
I'm not even really sure that the those relics, strats, etc are objectively stronger. I've only played UM so far and I haven't seen any reason to use their relics. On the other hand when I use Squad Doctrine and Master of Strategy to let two units of Aggressors move and double-tap because my opponent stopped just outside 18" on turn 1 I feel like I might be being a TFG.
I get what you are saying. I am okay with the successor chapter tactics being a little weaker than the more well known ones due to the flexibility of them (though the lost of the other stuff should have been enough payment for flexibility). That said, I think a few of the options parallel the known chapters ones in power. Those options are often part of the know chapter tactics anyways. There are at least a couple that seem pretty good too. Most feel not very good though to me.
I am actually pretty okay with Rapid Assault. That is was one of the ones I think it where I felt the power of successor chapter tactics should be. Ultimately, it isn't that good, but could be useful with the right list. Stealthy, on the other hand, does feel like a trap choice to take. Maybe because I just don't have a hard time getting something in cover since I try not to play on planet bowling ball, and I am not all that excited by going from a 3+ to 2+ save in the grand scheme of things.
It is still early days so I will give a few of them a try. I am not all to bothered by the additional relics, doctrines, characters, etc. I am missing out on yet since there is quite a bit to take in for someone that doesn't play full 40k on a regular basis. I do kinda suspect only a handful of successor chapter tactics are going to be used and that will pale in comparison to players just continuing to use the old known chapter stuff since they provide far more. Maybe if GW provided Legion II and Legion IX stuff it would level the field a little more, but I doubt the Lost and the Purged are going to see rules stuff when entire other factions still need more work.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
I'm not applying hate, I'm just surprised. An already borderline broken model made even more so with the new balance changes to SM:NuBoys. I don't see how Leviathan gets away with zero changes coming up.
Just out of curiosity, what makes a Leviathan borderline broken? Compared, say, to a Riptide or a Knight?
The chaos variant has a lot of S8 dakka.
And a 5 ++. How dare it.
Basically it can bring the pain, like many Chaos units, but sneeze at it and it dies.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
I'm not applying hate, I'm just surprised. An already borderline broken model made even more so with the new balance changes to SM:NuBoys. I don't see how Leviathan gets away with zero changes coming up.
Just out of curiosity, what makes a Leviathan borderline broken? Compared, say, to a Riptide or a Knight?
I guess you could say knights are broken, and continue to break the game by escalating the meta out of bounds for non-knight armies. I have no idea if Riptides are broken. I think the Telemon/Callidus Tanks falls into a similar category. If you took a Custodes force with two regular Venerable Dreads, and pitted them against a similar list of Custodes with two Telemon, the Telemon list will come out on top more than half the time. Certain units tip the balance to such a degree that not having them is almost an auto loss. No amount of not them will account for the lack of them.
I have no idea if Knights are comparable to Leviathans, as one is a Superheavy. I think putting Superheavies into non Superheavy games is broken. It's only my opinion, little worth though it may be.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
I'm not applying hate, I'm just surprised. An already borderline broken model made even more so with the new balance changes to SM:NuBoys. I don't see how Leviathan gets away with zero changes coming up.
Just out of curiosity, what makes a Leviathan borderline broken? Compared, say, to a Riptide or a Knight?
I guess you could say knights are broken, and continue to break the game by escalating the meta out of bounds for non-knight armies. I have no idea if Riptides are broken. I think the Telemon/Callidus Tanks falls into a similar category. If you took a Custodes force with two regular Venerable Dreads, and pitted them against a similar list of Custodes with two Telemon, the Telemon list will come out on top more than half the time. Certain units tip the balance to such a degree that not having them is almost an auto loss. No amount of not them will account for the lack of them.
I have no idea if Knights are comparable to Leviathans, as one is a Superheavy. I think putting Superheavies into non Superheavy games is broken. It's only my opinion, little worth though it may be.
Think of leviathans as worse Mini knights really.
The price as was stated before is 10 less than a Medium sized knight with 10 more w.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am kinda underwhelmed by the Successor Chapter Tactics. I think I am going to go with Rapid Assault and Whirlwind of Rage. I actually do make use of a good number of Assault weapons so Rapid Assault seems okay-ish. It also reminds me of Bolt Action's United States national trait. So there's that too.
Part of me wanted to go with Stealthly, but that one really did seem like a waste as I generally have my units in cover anyways as a SOP. Instead, I decided on Whirlwind to make my Reivers, and any other unit I often throw into melee, a little better. I might tryout Duelist too and see if I like that one better. In any event, I am not super keen on my second option so I might keep shopping around until I find one that feels like my army.
Part of me wants to just go Raven Guard too as it doesn't feel nearly as OP as it was and still seems pretty useful. I think that largely depends if I do want to give in and just call my army Raptors.
It's weird for me to have the option to customize my chapter trait and not want to use it.
Right now I'm sticking exclusively to Ultramarines and White Scars; partially just because I want to be sure I'm familiar with what they actually do, but also partially because I don't see a combo in the sub-traits (or a non-UM / non-WS main trait for that matter) that's worth giving up all the extra warlord traits, relics, psychic powers, and strats.
I'm not even really sure that the those relics, strats, etc are objectively stronger. I've only played UM so far and I haven't seen any reason to use their relics. On the other hand when I use Squad Doctrine and Master of Strategy to let two units of Aggressors move and double-tap because my opponent stopped just outside 18" on turn 1 I feel like I might be being a TFG.
keep in mind that UM and WS sucessors can take their own traits and benifit from the additional strats relics and pyskic powers
Insectum7 wrote: ^Wait. . . custom Traits with UM Strats and Wargear?
Correct. Successor chapters count as their primogenitors for the purposes of psyker powers and strategems. They simply can’t take the named characters.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Wait. . . custom Traits with UM Strats and Wargear?
Not so far as I know. The UM and WS book allows successor chapters that are basically just UMs and WSs that have to pay a CP to use any of the 6 main relics and have no named characters available.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Wait. . . custom Traits with UM Strats and Wargear?
Not so far as I know. The UM and WS book allows successor chapters that are basically just UMs and WSs that have to pay a CP to use any of the 6 main relics and have no named characters available.
It says specifically that you can use the UM and WS Strats for the Successors even if they dont have the same Chapter Tactics. Which means you also get the Doctrine effects. Warlord Traits are specific for the UM and WS, unless you use the strat to get a second Warlord Trait on a Model (not character) to get a second that MUST be taken from the WS or UM specific traits. Chapter Specific Relics also need the Strat.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Wait. . . custom Traits with UM Strats and Wargear?
Not so far as I know. The UM and WS book allows successor chapters that are basically just UMs and WSs that have to pay a CP to use any of the 6 main relics and have no named characters available.
It says specifically that you can use the UM and WS Strats for the Successors even if they dont have the same Chapter Tactics. Which means you also get the Doctrine effects. Warlord Traits are specific for the UM and WS, unless you use the strat to get a second Warlord Trait on a Model (not character) to get a second that MUST be taken from the WS or UM specific traits. Chapter Specific Relics also need the Strat.
...well that's kind of crazy. Jesus that means I can take the range extender trait and use the Master of Tactics and Squad Doctrines to double-tap with Aggressors 2" into my opponent's deployment zone on turn one. That's gross.
...well that's kind of crazy. Jesus that means I can take the range extender trait and use the Master of Tactics and Squad Doctrines to double-tap with Aggressors 2" into my opponent's deployment zone on turn one. That's gross.
Not sure it's worth giving up Cassius. 5+++ and +2" charge / +3" pile-in bubbles from one guy...at least if you get the rolls off.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Wait. . . custom Traits with UM Strats and Wargear?
Correct. Successor chapters count as their primogenitors for the purposes of psyker powers and strategems. They simply can’t take the named characters.
Wooow. That's gonna open up a crazy number of potential combinations. I'm not sure whether I like that or not. It'll sell more books though.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Wait. . . custom Traits with UM Strats and Wargear?
Correct. Successor chapters count as their primogenitors for the purposes of psyker powers and strategems. They simply can’t take the named characters.
Wooow. That's gonna open up a crazy number of potential combinations. I'm not sure whether I like that or not. It'll sell more books though.
it weill but none of the sucessor combinations are "Game breakingly powerful" in fact I'd argue the first founding CTs are proably, over all the best.
Now that I think about it I don't remember if it said anything about the Doctrine bonus. That would stop the really nasty turn 1 UM Aggressor shenanigans if that part doesn't come along for the ride.
...well that's kind of crazy. Jesus that means I can take the range extender trait and use the Master of Tactics and Squad Doctrines to double-tap with Aggressors 2" into my opponent's deployment zone on turn one. That's gross.
Not sure it's worth giving up Cassius. 5+++ and +2" charge / +3" pile-in bubbles from one guy...at least if you get the rolls off.
I've seen a few 'pure primaris' lists that have Cassius in them.
The Newman wrote: Now that I think about it I don't remember if it said anything about the Doctrine bonus. That would stop the really nasty turn 1 UM Aggressor shenanigans if that part doesn't come along for the ride.
They get the doctrine bonus. It is perfectly clear. Could people please stop getting this wrong? It is starting to get tiresome.
ThatMG wrote: Talking about chaos I think the Troops options for CSM should be
Legion Marines
Renegade Marines
Chaos Cuultists
And key into those rules. Basically Legion marines are the Chosen datasheet. They could also use some quality buffs.
SM + Primaris = the hot stuff right now
CSM + Chaos = the hot stuff should be.
I personally do hate the design behind the whole warbands of chaos design the infamous writer did.
Chaos should be more closer to what the Horus Hersey books where like on a power level kind of thing with "flavour" added for the corruption of chaos.
Marines SHOULD be scared of Chaos Armies. Rather than view them as a minor speed bumb or "spikey/edgy marines"
Scratch the cultists.
They should be in a lost and damned /R&H dex.
Instead go for specific auxilia for certain legions.
(cannonfodder for IW, Infiltrators for AL, Crusaders for WB.etc)
In my ideal world, Cultists would have an ability to block Astartes units like they were Characters for targeting purposes, and it stops the moment they get to a certain number of models in the unit, like 5 or so. THAT would be interesting at least.
You mean chaos cultists getting the GSC Unquestioning Loyalty?
The Newman wrote: Now that I think about it I don't remember if it said anything about the Doctrine bonus. That would stop the really nasty turn 1 UM Aggressor shenanigans if that part doesn't come along for the ride.
They get the doctrine bonus. It is perfectly clear. Could people please stop getting this wrong? It is starting to get tiresome.
Pthth, I didn't get it wrong, I second guessed myself 20 minutes or so after I re-read the section. I had it right the first time.
If you are an Ultramarines successor - you get scions of guilliman. You are only an ultramarine successor if you use their chapter tactic.
This is incredibly wordy for no reason but I will quote verbatim.
"If the successor chapter does not have a known founding chapter but has the inheritors of the prirmarch successor tactic, and you selected the chapter tactic of a first founding chapter, your chosen chapter is a successor have THAT chapter."
Only Ultramarines successors get scions of GMan and all Ultramarines sucessors have Ultramarines chapter tactics and only Ultramarines sucessors have access to their powers and relics (not all relics unless they spend CP) and stratagems.
So no busted combos like Iron hands tactics on Ultramarines scuessors with scions of guilliman and running seal of oath.
Xenomancers wrote: If you are an Ultramarines successor - you get scions of guilliman. You are only an ultramarine successor if you use their chapter tactic.
This is incredibly wordy for no reason but I will quote verbatim.
"If the successor chapter does not have a known founding chapter but has the inheritors of the prirmarch successor tactic, and you selected the chapter tactic of a first founding chapter, your chosen chapter is a successor have THAT chapter."
Only Ultramarines successors get scions of GMan and all Ultramarines sucessors have Ultramarines chapter tactics and only Ultramarines sucessors have access to their powers and relics (not all relics unless they spend CP) and stratagems.
So no busted combos like Iron hands tactics on Ultramarines scuessors with scions of guilliman and running seal of oath.
As well as no actual UM with those successors. It's either ALL successors or ALL UM.
Xenomancers wrote: If you are an Ultramarines successor - you get scions of guilliman.
Yes.
You are only an ultramarine successor if you use their chapter tactic.
No. This if false. You can choose a custom tactic and be a successor.
"If the successor chapter does not have a known founding chapter but has the inheritors of the prirmarch successor tactic, and you selected the chapter tactic of a first founding chapter, your chosen chapter is a successor have THAT chapter."
This means that you cannot choose to have Salamanders tactic via Inheritors of the Prirmarch and claim to be an Ultra successor. However absolutely no restriction exist for custom chapters, they can be successors just fine.
UM sucsessors can get UM Traits and relics and strats
UM successors can take a combination of custom chapter Traits, plus UM relics and strats
Non-UM successors can't take any UM relics or strats
?
Theres got to be something Im missing. Whats the mechanic declaring a successor or not?
UM sucsessors can get UM Traits and relics and strats
UM successors can take a combination of custom chapter Traits, plus UM relics and strats
Yes, except successors need to pay an extra CP of tax for Ultra relics and can have only one of them. They can take special issue wargear (crappier relics in the supplements) and the codex relics at normal price.
Non-UM successors can't take any UM relics or strats
Yes.
Theres got to be something Im missing.
What's missing is the rest of the supplements. Presumably it is expected that everyone will playing with some supplement, but currently we have only two to choose from.
UM sucsessors can get UM Traits and relics and strats
UM successors can take a combination of custom chapter Traits, plus UM relics and strats
Non-UM successors can't take any UM relics or strats
?
Theres got to be something Im missing. Whats the mechanic declaring a successor or not?
Generated successors can be elected as 'ultramarine successors' (or w/e chapter you want to follow) even if they aren't direct descendants.
Successors can use stratagems and traits - no problem.
Successors can buy ONE UM relic with a stratagem.
Theres got to be something Im missing. Whats the mechanic declaring a successor or not?
You declare it at the start of the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ThatMG wrote: My Blood Ravens are using the following tactics.
Born Heroes, Whirlwind of Rage.
The White Dwarf are unbelievably mediocre.
Amusingly enough, Blood Ravens can use any combination of successor tactics (Including IotP, though that locks them into a particular primogenitor for the battle), and just straight up steal relics and super-doctrines from other chapters (by declaring themselves as successors) while still using their super-librarian strategem and Gabriel.
Another question about the English version vs the French version: how does the successor chapters work in English ? Noone seem to agree in France but I don't see any disagreement here.
So for you who have the original content in it's intended language, can I make my own chapter, say they are inheritors of the Ultramarines, use the supplement with the super doctrine and some relics and use my own CT or do I have to play Ultramarines to use the supplement ? Etc
Thanks !
godardc wrote: can I make my own chapter, say they are inheritors of the Ultramarines, use the supplement with the super doctrine and some relics and use my own CT
Yes you can. Though you have to pay an extra CP for Ultra relic and can have only one of them.
