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I am kinda underwhelmed by the Successor Chapter Tactics. I think I am going to go with Rapid Assault and Whirlwind of Rage. I actually do make use of a good number of Assault weapons so Rapid Assault seems okay-ish. It also reminds me of Bolt Action's United States national trait. So there's that too.
Part of me wanted to go with Stealthly, but that one really did seem like a waste as I generally have my units in cover anyways as a SOP. Instead, I decided on Whirlwind to make my Reivers, and any other unit I often throw into melee, a little better. I might tryout Duelist too and see if I like that one better. In any event, I am not super keen on my second option so I might keep shopping around until I find one that feels like my army.
Part of me wants to just go Raven Guard too as it doesn't feel nearly as OP as it was and still seems pretty useful. I think that largely depends if I do want to give in and just call my army Raptors.
Cool. I play with what I have, based on the rule of cool and the models that I like. Not some neckbeards statistics jerkfest.
Nothing wrong with that, and the list certainly looks cool on a board but it has weaknesses that got exploited by the nid player. (I wouldn't play mechanized renegades and heretics if I would care about toptables, but I am capable of seeing issues in lists)
So you didn't get really curbstomped by superior rules though.
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After hearing that you considered the Malanthrope and especially THE DIMACHAERON overpowered, I think you've got no rights to speak about competitiveness.
Erhm who do you meant to talk too?
Just to be clear I wasn't insulting anyone here by using the neckbeard comment. Just wanted to be clear I don't think of 40K in that mindset.
I understood that, i still point out though that you really didn't get curbed because of the rules that supposedly are better for nids.
Also your mindset in regards to FW needs maybee a look at but that is an entirely diffrent subject.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Part of me wants to just go Raven Guard too as it doesn't feel nearly as OP as it was and still seems pretty useful. I think that largely depends if I do want to give in and just call my army Raptors.
Good choice imo, you could also paint Hydra and scales on them , no wait that would be too good
God gw y you so bad at rules writing and coordination of rules writers
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/19 22:25:57
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
BrianDavion wrote: plasma gravis... thats a juicy thought. although unless they where packing plasma canons or something just take hellblasters
Well, we know 2 things:
- Next wave of Primaris is very likely going to be Gravis- focused.
- Fluff has already established that Gravis armor can be modified to withstand a lot of plasma recoil/ heat/ radiation/ whatever (the special helmets on the plasma inceptors).
So I think Plasma Aggressors could be quite likely in the not-too-far future. Possibly the Primaris equivalent to Centurion Devastators (relatively immobile with long-range plasma cannons).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/19 22:36:24
Honestly, once again the Iron Hands are probably going to be the kings of the Codex, even though GW barely remembers what they are.
Some bloke in the studio must be like "They are like Necron Marines!" and some rules writer just goes with it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/20 03:54:29
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
Our group voted two years ago to ban FW from our games, the store supported that action. Hasn't anything to do with sales.
Lots of people like to try and defend FW as being some poor little company that the main comp poops on all the time. Not me, having something as OP broken as the Leviathan Dreadnought or the Tyranid Dimachaeron, and Tyranid Malanthrope as playable in 40K games takes all the fun right out of them.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids are one of the worst codices as of now with every single choice being subpar except Genestealers and Flyrant/Swarmlord.
- Bad Warlord Traits
- Horrible Relics
- Unplayable CMs and below average Infantry units
- Bad Hive Fleets with most traits being a single buff whilst being completely inferior to every single similar "Chapter Tactics" in other armies
Chapter Approved can only do so much, they need a full codex rework
I just got curb stomped by them this past weekend....Hive Fleet Kronos with tons of shooting decimated my Chaos Marines, I was tabled by the end of the third turn and he still had half his army left.
It's a problem of yours then, Tyranids are by no means competitive and Kronos is literally "lol shooting Nids, is there even anything worthy aside from Hive Guards!?"
Remember csm didn't get the discounts or all unit applying traits.
It isn't unlikely that in a mono scenario he got out shot at all.
I run BL
Lord
DA Sorcerer
30 Chaos Marines
10 Havoks
6 Obliterators
2 Predators
Even with Bolter D I was struggling to kill everything of his. The volume of firepower was intense and I rarely got to take a 3+ save.
BrianDavion wrote: codex lost and the damned is something 40k really could use.
Well it exists, just the gw main ruleteam feth up deliberately on it cus it is fw, ergo Office politics.
not the same thing.
It is though.
Or have you forgotten what IA13 was?
I don't consider a forge world list and pure forge world resin to be ion par with a codex and plastic support. please understand I'm not saying I'd refuse to play agaisnt "one of those FW lists" just that a codex and plastic line leads to greater supprot and accessability
I will. When I see FW units or lists, I tell my opponent "No thanks, you win" and go find another person to play. FW is MASSIVELY unbalanced, over powered junk. Leviathan Dreads just as well forego rolling to hit and say pick a unit and deal your damage.
Wait you serious?
Let me laugh even louder
Very. Fortunately in our area that is the prevalence opinion, so few of us if any have any FW stuff to begin with. FW is outright banned in one of our local stores.
So what is it, do you consider fw unbalanced now or is it just your area that has a population of people to lazy to actually read the rules for fw?
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BrianDavion wrote: yes I'm sure that local store bans FW out of concern for balance, it's not because they can't sell forgeworld and thus get no money from people whom purchase forgeworld, not at all
Also likely
Do you think a T8 Dread with a 4++ save, hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s to hit and wound with support at S8 with the dmg of the weapon being base two with SIXTEEN shots is "balanced?"
See if you actually read their index datasheet instead of spouting random stats.
As your mixing and matching stats to support your view.
The choas version your describing only has a 5++ vrs shooting.
Ok it included shooting weapons but it's 30 points less than a knight with 10 less wounds.
It's other 2 weapons are 18 inch range or less so it has to move and is no longer hitting on a 2+ due to moving with heavy weapons.
The loyalist version is different stats but it's weapons are maximum of 24 inch range and diffrent stats aswell.
Anything sounds broken when you just give it incorrect stats or rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/20 06:10:27
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
I'm not applying hate, I'm just surprised. An already borderline broken model made even more so with the new balance changes to SM:NuBoys. I don't see how Leviathan gets away with zero changes coming up.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am kinda underwhelmed by the Successor Chapter Tactics. I think I am going to go with Rapid Assault and Whirlwind of Rage. I actually do make use of a good number of Assault weapons so Rapid Assault seems okay-ish. It also reminds me of Bolt Action's United States national trait. So there's that too.
Part of me wanted to go with Stealthly, but that one really did seem like a waste as I generally have my units in cover anyways as a SOP. Instead, I decided on Whirlwind to make my Reivers, and any other unit I often throw into melee, a little better. I might tryout Duelist too and see if I like that one better. In any event, I am not super keen on my second option so I might keep shopping around until I find one that feels like my army.
Part of me wants to just go Raven Guard too as it doesn't feel nearly as OP as it was and still seems pretty useful. I think that largely depends if I do want to give in and just call my army Raptors.
It's weird for me to have the option to customize my chapter trait and not want to use it.
Right now I'm sticking exclusively to Ultramarines and White Scars; partially just because I want to be sure I'm familiar with what they actually do, but also partially because I don't see a combo in the sub-traits (or a non-UM / non-WS main trait for that matter) that's worth giving up all the extra warlord traits, relics, psychic powers, and strats.
I'm not even really sure that the those relics, strats, etc are objectively stronger. I've only played UM so far and I haven't seen any reason to use their relics. On the other hand when I use Squad Doctrine and Master of Strategy to let two units of Aggressors move and double-tap because my opponent stopped just outside 18" on turn 1 I feel like I might be being a TFG.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/20 19:05:26
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
I'm not applying hate, I'm just surprised. An already borderline broken model made even more so with the new balance changes to SM:NuBoys. I don't see how Leviathan gets away with zero changes coming up.
Levithians should require a bit more requirements, they already expensive at 300pts. But i mean at this point space marine super heavies are like 500 pts. Fellblades for example super super expensive and are a space marine tank you could take but they are far too weak and their cost too large.
Levithians are Imperial Knights for Space Marines.
I'm not even really sure that the those relics, strats, etc are objectively stronger. I've only played UM so far and I haven't seen any reason to use their relics. On the other hand when I use Squad Doctrine and Master of Strategy to let two units of Aggressors move and double-tap because my opponent stopped just outside 18" on turn 1 I feel like I might be being a TFG.
Adamantium Mantle makes your marines extreemely beefy by the looks of it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/20 19:11:44
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
I'm not applying hate, I'm just surprised. An already borderline broken model made even more so with the new balance changes to SM:NuBoys. I don't see how Leviathan gets away with zero changes coming up.
Just out of curiosity, what makes a Leviathan borderline broken? Compared, say, to a Riptide or a Knight?
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am kinda underwhelmed by the Successor Chapter Tactics. I think I am going to go with Rapid Assault and Whirlwind of Rage. I actually do make use of a good number of Assault weapons so Rapid Assault seems okay-ish. It also reminds me of Bolt Action's United States national trait. So there's that too.
Part of me wanted to go with Stealthly, but that one really did seem like a waste as I generally have my units in cover anyways as a SOP. Instead, I decided on Whirlwind to make my Reivers, and any other unit I often throw into melee, a little better. I might tryout Duelist too and see if I like that one better. In any event, I am not super keen on my second option so I might keep shopping around until I find one that feels like my army.
Part of me wants to just go Raven Guard too as it doesn't feel nearly as OP as it was and still seems pretty useful. I think that largely depends if I do want to give in and just call my army Raptors.
It's weird for me to have the option to customize my chapter trait and not want to use it.
Right now I'm sticking exclusively to Ultramarines and White Scars; partially just because I want to be sure I'm familiar with what they actually do, but also partially because I don't see a combo in the sub-traits (or a non-UM / non-WS main trait for that matter) that's worth giving up all the extra warlord traits, relics, psychic powers, and strats.
I'm not even really sure that the those relics, strats, etc are objectively stronger. I've only played UM so far and I haven't seen any reason to use their relics. On the other hand when I use Squad Doctrine and Master of Strategy to let two units of Aggressors move and double-tap because my opponent stopped just outside 18" on turn 1 I feel like I might be being a TFG.
I get what you are saying. I am okay with the successor chapter tactics being a little weaker than the more well known ones due to the flexibility of them (though the lost of the other stuff should have been enough payment for flexibility). That said, I think a few of the options parallel the known chapters ones in power. Those options are often part of the know chapter tactics anyways. There are at least a couple that seem pretty good too. Most feel not very good though to me.
I am actually pretty okay with Rapid Assault. That is was one of the ones I think it where I felt the power of successor chapter tactics should be. Ultimately, it isn't that good, but could be useful with the right list. Stealthy, on the other hand, does feel like a trap choice to take. Maybe because I just don't have a hard time getting something in cover since I try not to play on planet bowling ball, and I am not all that excited by going from a 3+ to 2+ save in the grand scheme of things.
It is still early days so I will give a few of them a try. I am not all to bothered by the additional relics, doctrines, characters, etc. I am missing out on yet since there is quite a bit to take in for someone that doesn't play full 40k on a regular basis. I do kinda suspect only a handful of successor chapter tactics are going to be used and that will pale in comparison to players just continuing to use the old known chapter stuff since they provide far more. Maybe if GW provided Legion II and Legion IX stuff it would level the field a little more, but I doubt the Lost and the Purged are going to see rules stuff when entire other factions still need more work.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
I'm not applying hate, I'm just surprised. An already borderline broken model made even more so with the new balance changes to SM:NuBoys. I don't see how Leviathan gets away with zero changes coming up.
Just out of curiosity, what makes a Leviathan borderline broken? Compared, say, to a Riptide or a Knight?
The chaos variant has a lot of S8 dakka.
And a 5 ++. How dare it.
Basically it can bring the pain, like many Chaos units, but sneeze at it and it dies.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
I'm not applying hate, I'm just surprised. An already borderline broken model made even more so with the new balance changes to SM:NuBoys. I don't see how Leviathan gets away with zero changes coming up.
Just out of curiosity, what makes a Leviathan borderline broken? Compared, say, to a Riptide or a Knight?
I guess you could say knights are broken, and continue to break the game by escalating the meta out of bounds for non-knight armies. I have no idea if Riptides are broken. I think the Telemon/Callidus Tanks falls into a similar category. If you took a Custodes force with two regular Venerable Dreads, and pitted them against a similar list of Custodes with two Telemon, the Telemon list will come out on top more than half the time. Certain units tip the balance to such a degree that not having them is almost an auto loss. No amount of not them will account for the lack of them.
I have no idea if Knights are comparable to Leviathans, as one is a Superheavy. I think putting Superheavies into non Superheavy games is broken. It's only my opinion, little worth though it may be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/20 19:59:39
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, have we confirmed that all the new rules also apply to Leviathans as well?
Why wouldn't they, they have angles of death added by the day 0 FAQ. People really need to get over their hate for FW, just because it's a GW resin model doesn't make it any less legitimate GW40k.
I'm not applying hate, I'm just surprised. An already borderline broken model made even more so with the new balance changes to SM:NuBoys. I don't see how Leviathan gets away with zero changes coming up.
Just out of curiosity, what makes a Leviathan borderline broken? Compared, say, to a Riptide or a Knight?
I guess you could say knights are broken, and continue to break the game by escalating the meta out of bounds for non-knight armies. I have no idea if Riptides are broken. I think the Telemon/Callidus Tanks falls into a similar category. If you took a Custodes force with two regular Venerable Dreads, and pitted them against a similar list of Custodes with two Telemon, the Telemon list will come out on top more than half the time. Certain units tip the balance to such a degree that not having them is almost an auto loss. No amount of not them will account for the lack of them.
I have no idea if Knights are comparable to Leviathans, as one is a Superheavy. I think putting Superheavies into non Superheavy games is broken. It's only my opinion, little worth though it may be.
Think of leviathans as worse Mini knights really.
The price as was stated before is 10 less than a Medium sized knight with 10 more w.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am kinda underwhelmed by the Successor Chapter Tactics. I think I am going to go with Rapid Assault and Whirlwind of Rage. I actually do make use of a good number of Assault weapons so Rapid Assault seems okay-ish. It also reminds me of Bolt Action's United States national trait. So there's that too.
Part of me wanted to go with Stealthly, but that one really did seem like a waste as I generally have my units in cover anyways as a SOP. Instead, I decided on Whirlwind to make my Reivers, and any other unit I often throw into melee, a little better. I might tryout Duelist too and see if I like that one better. In any event, I am not super keen on my second option so I might keep shopping around until I find one that feels like my army.
Part of me wants to just go Raven Guard too as it doesn't feel nearly as OP as it was and still seems pretty useful. I think that largely depends if I do want to give in and just call my army Raptors.
It's weird for me to have the option to customize my chapter trait and not want to use it.
Right now I'm sticking exclusively to Ultramarines and White Scars; partially just because I want to be sure I'm familiar with what they actually do, but also partially because I don't see a combo in the sub-traits (or a non-UM / non-WS main trait for that matter) that's worth giving up all the extra warlord traits, relics, psychic powers, and strats.
I'm not even really sure that the those relics, strats, etc are objectively stronger. I've only played UM so far and I haven't seen any reason to use their relics. On the other hand when I use Squad Doctrine and Master of Strategy to let two units of Aggressors move and double-tap because my opponent stopped just outside 18" on turn 1 I feel like I might be being a TFG.
keep in mind that UM and WS sucessors can take their own traits and benifit from the additional strats relics and pyskic powers
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Insectum7 wrote: ^Wait. . . custom Traits with UM Strats and Wargear?
Correct. Successor chapters count as their primogenitors for the purposes of psyker powers and strategems. They simply can’t take the named characters.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Wait. . . custom Traits with UM Strats and Wargear?
Not so far as I know. The UM and WS book allows successor chapters that are basically just UMs and WSs that have to pay a CP to use any of the 6 main relics and have no named characters available.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Wait. . . custom Traits with UM Strats and Wargear?
Not so far as I know. The UM and WS book allows successor chapters that are basically just UMs and WSs that have to pay a CP to use any of the 6 main relics and have no named characters available.
It says specifically that you can use the UM and WS Strats for the Successors even if they dont have the same Chapter Tactics. Which means you also get the Doctrine effects. Warlord Traits are specific for the UM and WS, unless you use the strat to get a second Warlord Trait on a Model (not character) to get a second that MUST be taken from the WS or UM specific traits. Chapter Specific Relics also need the Strat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/20 21:27:24
Insectum7 wrote: ^Wait. . . custom Traits with UM Strats and Wargear?
Not so far as I know. The UM and WS book allows successor chapters that are basically just UMs and WSs that have to pay a CP to use any of the 6 main relics and have no named characters available.
It says specifically that you can use the UM and WS Strats for the Successors even if they dont have the same Chapter Tactics. Which means you also get the Doctrine effects. Warlord Traits are specific for the UM and WS, unless you use the strat to get a second Warlord Trait on a Model (not character) to get a second that MUST be taken from the WS or UM specific traits. Chapter Specific Relics also need the Strat.
...well that's kind of crazy. Jesus that means I can take the range extender trait and use the Master of Tactics and Squad Doctrines to double-tap with Aggressors 2" into my opponent's deployment zone on turn one. That's gross.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/20 23:09:55
...well that's kind of crazy. Jesus that means I can take the range extender trait and use the Master of Tactics and Squad Doctrines to double-tap with Aggressors 2" into my opponent's deployment zone on turn one. That's gross.
Not sure it's worth giving up Cassius. 5+++ and +2" charge / +3" pile-in bubbles from one guy...at least if you get the rolls off.
, no wait that would be too good 
Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts. 
