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Xenomancers wrote: hate to break it to you. He is actually buffed as a fighter. Hit him with MOH and he goes to str 9 with the sword which will wound on 3's and he still rerolls 1. The power of the sword though is rolling 6's to wound. D3 mortals each time. So additional attacks really make his beastly. Now that he can fight twice for 3 cp...he going to kill twice as much and maybe more because of other +1 attack abilities. I am having fun not including him in lists right now but holy crap. 20 Gman attacks isn't even fair dude.
JFC! Almost like all that wailing and gnashing of teeth and crying about your nerfed primarch for who knows how many pages was completely baseless! I really wish this would teach you some self awareness but I'm not exactly holding my breath here.
Relax dude. This whole time I admitted there could be more in the codex which could change things. I basically was saying it wasn't looking too good because all the good previous combos were nerfed. Turns out we got some even better combos possibly. I admit I was wrong but I always said I could be wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I didn't even know these strats and it looked like a massive improvement. Just gravis having 3 W would have changed a few games for me with BA.
There is also a stratagem you can use in the SM codex to count as stationary for 1 cp on an infantry unit. Which even you as a BA player can use per the page 8 BRBFAQ. So Ultras don't have a monopoly on aggressors ether.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/18 17:27:10
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Played my first game with Ultra marines vs Custodes. It went surprisingly well. I got to go first. I took 2x batallions so I had 15 CP to start the game. Took an additional relic (seal of oath) so I picked a unit of jetbikers to reroll all hits and wounds. I also took a warlord trait to change a unit to tactical doctrine turn 1.
So I was able to move a 10 man intercessor in range to shoot 40 ap-2 reroll everything bolt guns into a 3 man jetbiker unit. That killed 2 bikes of that bat even in the -1 to hit banner and the prepared positions stratagem. It was insanely powerful in practice. Knights still going be getting wrecked by ultramarines.
Turn 2 I switched to tactical doctrine. Which was kind of underwelming but okay. I was able to move with all my redemptors which ended up slaying hard in CC turn 3. I can definately see how marines who benifit from devestator doctrine are going to be the best though - especially redemptors.
All I can say is the non guilliman build has gone up dramatically. I am really interesting in the iron hands to see what their super doctrine is going to be. We could be looking at a much improved overall space marine experience. Keep in mind I was playing against mono custodes which couldnt really kill my vheicals so my weakness couldn't really be exploited at all.
So, wait a minute, are you saying you actually used the book after all the shouts of " Game over man, Game over ! " and found that it's better than you imagined, and while Gman may have been nerfed, the builds without him have gotten better ? I'm both shocked and amazed. It's almost like waiting to see how something works before freaking out might have some merit to it.
To be fair I didn't have the complete picture and the reviews were pretty terrible as they didn't go into a lot of detail. The biggest upgrade to the codex even with all the bonus rules they got are the stratagem. I mean holy gak there are a lot of stratagems and a lot of them are really good.
Ultramarines in particular are going to be amazing with all their CP generation. Calgar gives you 2 for free and regens on a 5+ so youll likely get one back every turn with that and tiggy with a +1 to cast and a reroll is good for a CP per turn as well with the scryrs gaze spell (which also has a really nice alternate mode which gives you 3 rerolls for a unit of your choice as well). Also without Gman ina list double batallion is in the mix - though I can't really figure out a way to make a brigade work because taking 3 fast attacks (with options you want to take) puts you well over the mark. You can do it - it's just not going to be an ideal list. 2 Batallions allows you to punt the on the units you don't want to take and with clagar and 2 batallions you start with 15 CP. That is a nice amount of CP considering you are going to be getting 1-2 more a turn. Ultramarines have really good stratagems to. The hands down best being the overwatch stratagem which allows you to overwatch with 3 additional units as if they were the target of the charge. This allows you to move up in formation being buffed by all your characters and get into the middle of the board. Even a 3 man custodes biker unit opted not to take a 9 inch charge against me because it just wasn't worth the risk for a long shot.
The ability to take additional warlord traits is fantatic as well because there are a lot of key build defining stratagames as a warlord trait. Like the ability to change to tactic doctrine for 1 unit - very nice. Unhappy about the vet intercessors nerf - I don't think that will be utilized much anymore. However for an additional relic an ultramarine character can give out a 6" +1 attack bubble....1 CP for multiple units to get +1 attack...Okay...GW must really think leadership matters in this game...It does not. You could however make an absolutely crazy melle intercessor army with this build. You'd drop a ton of CP on it but you can have 4 attack intercessors with +1 str from a chaplain dread with vets plus the 6" aura for +1 attack. I don't think it's viable but you could do it. Overall it is exciting to have new builds and have actual stratagems to use. I'll try taking ultras to an ITC and see how it goes in a few weeks. Facing top teir armies might be a completely different experience than facing mono custodies.
EDIT
It's actually more silly. Ultramarines banner also gives +1 attack
So this is pretty funny but you can actually get 20 attacks out of gman in a turn.
7 attacks if he charges
8 for the banner
9 for might of heros
10 for the relic aura.
20 if he fights twice for 3 CP....
Uhhh...what? that could easily kill 2 knights.
I don't think you can gain more than 1CP per battle round as per the tactical restraint rule.
You can only refund 1 CP a turn but generating CP is not limited. I don't have the FAQ on this but confirmed with a bunch of ITC guys. I could be wrong - I'll look that up for clarification.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
TACTICAL RESTRAINT
There are several Warlord Traits, Relics, psychic powers and abilities that give you a chance to gain or refund Command Points. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 Command Point per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source, and Command Points that are spent on Stratagems that are not used during a battle round, such as those that are used ‘before the battle’, can never be refunded.
This might be more a YMDC thread but GW did have a do over on this and still managed to miss a few things.
But yeah it's the only thing that does make me a little sad that calgar got that as his mandatory warlord trait.
I'm also mildly annoyed that Tiggy can not know both indomitus ans Librarious powers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/18 17:59:02
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Kows Smite and either three psychic powers from the librarius discipline or three psychic powers from the indomitus disapline
, to me that reads as either or no mix and matching.
English RAW would be one or the other you are right but these are English people - you never know what they mean. You'd think a chief librarian would be able to pick and choose like any number of psykers that can pick from 2 or 3 disciplines.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Kows Smite and either three psychic powers from the librarius discipline or three psychic powers from the indomitus disapline
, to me that reads as either or no mix and matching.
English RAW would be one or the other you are right but these are English people - you never know what they mean. You'd think a chief librarian would be able to pick and choose like any number of psykers that can pick from 2 or 3 disciplines.
Probably for balance purposes. It's silly but I'm fine with it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Martel732 wrote: I didn't even know these strats and it looked like a massive improvement. Just gravis having 3 W would have changed a few games for me with BA.
There is also a stratagem you can use in the SM codex to count as stationary for 1 cp on an infantry unit. Which even you as a BA player can use per the page 8 BRBFAQ. So Ultras don't have a monopoly on aggressors ether.
That one is only for the purposes of Bolter Discipline, Aggressors are unaffected.
Maybe Devastator equivalent? Whats an Incursor again?
PourSpelur wrote: It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
Martel732 wrote: Just picked up codex. Running as successors for now.
I'm curious what rules you're looking at. I'm going White Scars and Black Templars for my melee stuff, but for my shooty armies I'm going the +1 to cover outside 12" + the 3" range bonus.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Xenomancers wrote: hate to break it to you. He is actually buffed as a fighter. Hit him with MOH and he goes to str 9 with the sword which will wound on 3's and he still rerolls 1. The power of the sword though is rolling 6's to wound. D3 mortals each time. So additional attacks really make his beastly. Now that he can fight twice for 3 cp...he going to kill twice as much and maybe more because of other +1 attack abilities. I am having fun not including him in lists right now but holy crap. 20 Gman attacks isn't even fair dude.
JFC! Almost like all that wailing and gnashing of teeth and crying about your nerfed primarch for who knows how many pages was completely baseless! I really wish this would teach you some self awareness but I'm not exactly holding my breath here.
Relax dude. This whole time I admitted there could be more in the codex which could change things. I basically was saying it wasn't looking too good because all the good previous combos were nerfed. Turns out we got some even better combos possibly. I admit I was wrong but I always said I could be wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I didn't even know these strats and it looked like a massive improvement. Just gravis having 3 W would have changed a few games for me with BA.
There is also a stratagem you can use in the SM codex to count as stationary for 1 cp on an infantry unit. Which even you as a BA player can use per the page 8 BRBFAQ. So Ultras don't have a monopoly on aggressors ether.
No this whole time you were saying how SM are GAK tier and nothing can redeem it because repulsor & plus g man nerf....
But whatever. I'm glad you came around to seeing how srong the new SM is looking.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Martel732 wrote: Just picked up codex. Running as successors for now.
I'm curious what rules you're looking at. I'm going White Scars and Black Templars for my melee stuff, but for my shooty armies I'm going the +1 to cover outside 12" + the 3" range bonus.
I'm trying to be as BA as possible. Hungry for battle and Whirlwind of Rage. I don't really like doing this, but after nearly a decade, I'm not going to not do it.
Martel732 wrote: Just picked up codex. Running as successors for now.
I'm curious what rules you're looking at. I'm going White Scars and Black Templars for my melee stuff, but for my shooty armies I'm going the +1 to cover outside 12" + the 3" range bonus.
I'm trying to be as BA as possible. Hungry for battle and Whirlwind of Rage. I don't really like doing this, but after nearly a decade, I'm not going to not do it.
Make the white scars sucessor for the super buff combat doctrine if your wanting to be as blood angles like as possible and you'll have dudes that hit like a truck in CC sadly though its T3+ only though.
Martel732 wrote: I didn't get the extra supplements. I'm just working with the base book. Good enough for me atm.
most of the reviews have covered the rule I'm sure you can find it somewhere if you want to test it out before you hit up and event. As that +1D to CC attacks sounds very BA.
Xenomancers wrote: hate to break it to you. He is actually buffed as a fighter. Hit him with MOH and he goes to str 9 with the sword which will wound on 3's and he still rerolls 1. The power of the sword though is rolling 6's to wound. D3 mortals each time. So additional attacks really make his beastly. Now that he can fight twice for 3 cp...he going to kill twice as much and maybe more because of other +1 attack abilities. I am having fun not including him in lists right now but holy crap. 20 Gman attacks isn't even fair dude.
JFC! Almost like all that wailing and gnashing of teeth and crying about your nerfed primarch for who knows how many pages was completely baseless! I really wish this would teach you some self awareness but I'm not exactly holding my breath here.
Relax dude. This whole time I admitted there could be more in the codex which could change things. I basically was saying it wasn't looking too good because all the good previous combos were nerfed. Turns out we got some even better combos possibly. I admit I was wrong but I always said I could be wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I didn't even know these strats and it looked like a massive improvement. Just gravis having 3 W would have changed a few games for me with BA.
There is also a stratagem you can use in the SM codex to count as stationary for 1 cp on an infantry unit. Which even you as a BA player can use per the page 8 BRBFAQ. So Ultras don't have a monopoly on aggressors ether.
Xeno dude, were you ignoring the +1 AP on all weapons and the +1 attack and the double shots on all bolters if not moving this whole time?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/19 00:31:04
Xenomancers wrote: Played my first game with Ultra marines vs Custodes. It went surprisingly well. I got to go first. I took 2x batallions so I had 15 CP to start the game. Took an additional relic (seal of oath) so I picked a unit of jetbikers to reroll all hits and wounds. I also took a warlord trait to change a unit to tactical doctrine turn 1.
So I was able to move a 10 man intercessor in range to shoot 40 ap-2 reroll everything bolt guns into a 3 man jetbiker unit. That killed 2 bikes of that bat even in the -1 to hit banner and the prepared positions stratagem. It was insanely powerful in practice. Knights still going be getting wrecked by ultramarines.
Turn 2 I switched to tactical doctrine. Which was kind of underwelming but okay. I was able to move with all my redemptors which ended up slaying hard in CC turn 3. I can definately see how marines who benifit from devestator doctrine are going to be the best though - especially redemptors.
All I can say is the non guilliman build has gone up dramatically. I am really interesting in the iron hands to see what their super doctrine is going to be. We could be looking at a much improved overall space marine experience. Keep in mind I was playing against mono custodes which couldnt really kill my vheicals so my weakness couldn't really be exploited at all.
So, wait a minute, are you saying you actually used the book after all the shouts of " Game over man, Game over ! " and found that it's better than you imagined, and while Gman may have been nerfed, the builds without him have gotten better ? I'm both shocked and amazed. It's almost like waiting to see how something works before freaking out might have some merit to it.
To be fair I didn't have the complete picture and the reviews were pretty terrible as they didn't go into a lot of detail. The biggest upgrade to the codex even with all the bonus rules they got are the stratagem. I mean holy gak there are a lot of stratagems and a lot of them are really good.
Ultramarines in particular are going to be amazing with all their CP generation. Calgar gives you 2 for free and regens on a 5+ so youll likely get one back every turn with that and tiggy with a +1 to cast and a reroll is good for a CP per turn as well with the scryrs gaze spell (which also has a really nice alternate mode which gives you 3 rerolls for a unit of your choice as well). Also without Gman ina list double batallion is in the mix - though I can't really figure out a way to make a brigade work because taking 3 fast attacks (with options you want to take) puts you well over the mark. You can do it - it's just not going to be an ideal list. 2 Batallions allows you to punt the on the units you don't want to take and with clagar and 2 batallions you start with 15 CP. That is a nice amount of CP considering you are going to be getting 1-2 more a turn. Ultramarines have really good stratagems to. The hands down best being the overwatch stratagem which allows you to overwatch with 3 additional units as if they were the target of the charge. This allows you to move up in formation being buffed by all your characters and get into the middle of the board. Even a 3 man custodes biker unit opted not to take a 9 inch charge against me because it just wasn't worth the risk for a long shot.
The ability to take additional warlord traits is fantatic as well because there are a lot of key build defining stratagames as a warlord trait. Like the ability to change to tactic doctrine for 1 unit - very nice. Unhappy about the vet intercessors nerf - I don't think that will be utilized much anymore. However for an additional relic an ultramarine character can give out a 6" +1 attack bubble....1 CP for multiple units to get +1 attack...Okay...GW must really think leadership matters in this game...It does not. You could however make an absolutely crazy melle intercessor army with this build. You'd drop a ton of CP on it but you can have 4 attack intercessors with +1 str from a chaplain dread with vets plus the 6" aura for +1 attack. I don't think it's viable but you could do it. Overall it is exciting to have new builds and have actual stratagems to use. I'll try taking ultras to an ITC and see how it goes in a few weeks. Facing top teir armies might be a completely different experience than facing mono custodies.
EDIT
It's actually more silly. Ultramarines banner also gives +1 attack
So this is pretty funny but you can actually get 20 attacks out of gman in a turn.
7 attacks if he charges
8 for the banner
9 for might of heros
10 for the relic aura.
20 if he fights twice for 3 CP....
Uhhh...what? that could easily kill 2 knights.
To be equally fair, the lack of a clear and full picture is exactly why I and some others said to chill and wait and see what was up before enter full on panic mode. So all I can hope is you learned to have all the facts in front of you before making a judgement. If you did, this has all been worthwhile. If not, it'll happen every time incomplete information appears.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/19 00:47:13
Maybe, but maybe he'll really learn this time ? I have hope, we can all choose the better path of greater understanding. If not, I hope everyone remembers this very long example of why not to make judgement without all the facts and reminds him.
Y’all ease up on xeno. He publicly admitted he was wrong and that’s more than most are willing to do.
This is going to be ugly though if this keeps up. I’m pretty much living in fear of the Iron hands supplement and I’m going to bring out the old metal dreadnought for any Imperial Fist forces.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Y’all ease up on xeno. He publicly admitted he was wrong and that’s more than most are willing to do.
This is going to be ugly though if this keeps up. I’m pretty much living in fear of the Iron hands supplement and I’m going to bring out the old metal dreadnought for any Imperial Fist forces.
Totally depends if any other Codex gets the Mehroyn treatment. Which I doubt. Aren't the next two releases Dark Angels and Blood Angels?
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
Eldar- 4436 pts
