or at least those parts of it that have displeased their lizardy overlords "agent x-4 you failed at [redacted], two weeks cockwombling monitering for you" "but your majesty..." "silence unless you fancy three month of Mumset detail"
Turnip Jedi wrote: or at least those parts of it that have displeased their lizardy overlords "agent x-4 you failed at [redacted], two weeks cockwombling monitering for you" "but your majesty..." "silence unless you fancy three month of Mumset detail"
I believe the latter falls under "cruel and unusual punishment", doesn't it?
She is after all a judge and her husband is a legal attorney so could well be related to other cases -- or indeed just a random horrible event.
Hell, one would suggest that if one was determined to commit such a heinous act due to, say, an entirely different case, this would be the ideal time to do so.
But then of course you could flip that and then think that if you were trying to influence the Epstein case then.. etc etc etc ad nauseum
I think it makes more sense if Epstein had suicide done to him. and It makes sense if he was persuaded to cooperate allowing for the circumstances. It is hard to commit suicide, but easier to get someone in despair to cooperate with their own demise.
Repeating this with Maxwell will be tricky though.
Does the 'person murdered so skeletons would stay in his closet, murder made to look like a suicide' scenario count as a conspiracy? Seems more like a cost of doing business for organized crime.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Does the 'person murdered so skeletons would stay in his closet, murder made to look like a suicide' scenario count as a conspiracy? Seems more like a cost of doing business for organized crime.
Realistically speaking, murdering someone to keep things quiet is the worst way to keep secrets. Bodies generate investigations. People who want to keep things secret don't want investigations. When organized crime produces a body, it's usually to send some other message, not to keep secrets. See Russia as exhibit A, which doesn't even put much effort into hiding its involvement in dozens of murders and attempted murders because the goal is intimidation of expats and dissidents.
For Epstein does make a very compelling narrative and a big part of the appeal of conspiracy theories is how they turn the chaotic into compelling - plausible - narratives. People act like it's some great mystery, but it's honestly just not. I mean really, why would a 66 year old pedophile sex trafficker who dodged the bullet once ever want to kill himself rather than be in prison? I honestly can't think of a single reason (sarcasm). People act like it's hard to do, but that's just hogwash. 50,000 people kill themselves in the US every year. It's the 10th leading cause of death in this country. Sure, lots of people try and fail but it's just asinine to invoke 'suicide is hard' as evidence that a particular person couldn't do it (and men are more than 3x more likely to succeed than women). I find it completely unsurprising that cameras in a prison don't work (nothing in American prisons works) and a pair of lazy corrections officers? That's where we stuff the washouts from American law enforcement and we've seen how low that threshold can be. It does probably cross a threshold many conspiracy's never get close to in that it could be true. It's not like it's totally impossible or nonsensical, but it's a circumstantial claim based on the compelling narrative it proposes more than anything, so I'd say it's a conspiracy theory until something less circumstantial shows up to support it but I'm also not surprised it's taken off in a way that "America faked the moon landing" never has.
Yeah, it turns out that judge had also convicted a gang leader to 45 years in prison, and there were apparently multiple other reasons she might be targeted.
Plus, the Epstein case she's tied to AFAI understand was about a financial thing to do with DB, not directly related to Epstein's pedophilia ring.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Does the 'person murdered so skeletons would stay in his closet, murder made to look like a suicide' scenario count as a conspiracy? Seems more like a cost of doing business for organized crime.
Realistically speaking, murdering someone to keep things quiet is the worst way to keep secrets. Bodies generate investigations. People who want to keep things secret don't want investigations. When organized crime produces a body, it's usually to send some other message, not to keep secrets. See Russia as exhibit A, which doesn't even put much effort into hiding its involvement in dozens of murders and attempted murders because the goal is intimidation of expats and dissidents.
For Epstein does make a very compelling narrative and a big part of the appeal of conspiracy theories is how they turn the chaotic into compelling - plausible - narratives. People act like it's some great mystery, but it's honestly just not. I mean really, why would a 66 year old pedophile sex trafficker who dodged the bullet once ever want to kill himself rather than be in prison? I honestly can't think of a single reason (sarcasm). People act like it's hard to do, but that's just hogwash. 50,000 people kill themselves in the US every year. It's the 10th leading cause of death in this country. Sure, lots of people try and fail but it's just asinine to invoke 'suicide is hard' as evidence that a particular person couldn't do it (and men are more than 3x more likely to succeed than women). I find it completely unsurprising that cameras in a prison don't work (nothing in American prisons works) and a pair of lazy corrections officers? That's where we stuff the washouts from American law enforcement and we've seen how low that threshold can be. It does probably cross a threshold many conspiracy's never get close to in that it could be true. It's not like it's totally impossible or nonsensical, but it's a circumstantial claim based on the compelling narrative it proposes more than anything, so I'd say it's a conspiracy theory until something less circumstantial shows up to support it but I'm also not surprised it's taken off in a way that "America faked the moon landing" never has.
Well I stand corrected and learned something today, thank you.
Bran Dawri wrote: Yeah, it turns out that judge had also convicted a gang leader to 45 years in prison, and there were apparently multiple other reasons she might be targeted.
Plus, the Epstein case she's tied to AFAI understand was about a financial thing to do with DB, not directly related to Epstein's pedophilia ring.
The apparent shooter is a well known lawyer (who has apparently committed suicide), who had an issue with her for being a 'feminist' judge.
a self-described "anti-feminist" lawyer who had sued nightclubs over ladies' night discounts, the federal government over a law protecting women from violence and a university over women's studies courses.
He also brought a lawsuit before Judge Salas in 2015 challenging the male-only military draft.
In a 1,700-page memoir he published online, Den Hollander said he had "wanted to ask the Judge out, but thought she might hold me in contempt".
NBC News reports that he also wrote of fantasising about the rape of a female judge who had presided over his divorce case.
Den Hollander had written that he was diagnosed with melanoma cancer two years ago.
"Death's hand is on my left shoulder... nothing in this life matters anymore," he wrote in his screed.
"The only problem with a life lived too long under Feminazi rule is that a man ends up with so many enemies he can't even the score with all of them."
So... yeah. Apparently not linked to the Epstein related case (unless that's what his masters wanted you to think!*), just a frakked up individual taking out his issues on other people.
Apparently he's also linked to the recent shooting of a lawyer from California. But the news bit I saw on TV tonight was vague about that.
*joking, but from a conspiracy theory point of view, this guy is the picture perfect idiot to hand a gun and send out to die in 'blaze of glory' to cover up 'the real motives.' He's got so many issues of his own, including the cognitive dissonance, that looking for another motive behind them would be fruitless.
What's interesting, from the CT point of view, is that it's easy to jump to conclusions about Epstein but the real answer seems much more mundane if no less tragic. Conspiracy Theorists will likely discount the more mundane explanation (possibly using Voss's "real motives" excuse) and promote the incorrect but more interesting and sensational narrative.
Slipspace wrote: What's interesting, from the CT point of view, is that it's easy to jump to conclusions about Epstein but the real answer seems much more mundane if no less tragic. Conspiracy Theorists will likely discount the more mundane explanation (possibly using Voss's "real motives" excuse) and promote the incorrect but more interesting and sensational narrative.
tbh, the mundane explanation, would also throw some shade torwards the jail institutions and standards, i guess buissness is apporpriate there?
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He also brought a lawsuit before Judge Salas in 2015 challenging the male-only military draft.
TBF, i can get behind the equal application of conscription.
but that is a POV from over yonder, where conscription is mandatory ..
He also brought a lawsuit before Judge Salas in 2015 challenging the male-only military draft.
TBF, i can get behind the equal application of conscription.
but that is a POV from over yonder, where conscription is mandatory ..
Its particularly strange in context. Most extreme anti-feminists like this guy really hate the idea of women in the military. So to challenge the male-only aspect of our (mostly defunct and irrelevant, but not illegal or unconstitutional) draft law is a weird bit of cognitive dissonance, because if he had won the case, it'd be 'ladies night' for the duration of the next military crisis that actually warranted dusting off the draft.
Voss wrote: Its particularly strange in context. Most extreme anti-feminists like this guy really hate the idea of women in the military. So to challenge the male-only aspect of our (mostly defunct and irrelevant, but not illegal or unconstitutional) draft law is a weird bit of cognitive dissonance, because if he had won the case, it'd be 'ladies night' for the duration of the next military crisis that actually warranted dusting off the draft.
It's actually not particularly strange.
It's a new trend/tactic in conservative leaning political litigants. The same Edward Blum used against Harvard's admissions process just a year or so ago. Blum doesn't give a damn about Asians and their ability to get into Harvard. He just wants to abolish affirmative action initiatives, but rather than attacking it from the angle of "it's unfair against rich white elites" as past litigants have, this method attacks such legislation from the other side by picking a disadvantaged group and arguing the laws are actually discriminating against them. It's kind of a mixed bag, where they sort of have a point but it's also just a really transparent bid to hide bigotry behind a veneer of 'fighting for equality'.
Except, seeing clips of this guy in action, he DID approach his cases from the angle of 'its unfair against us men.' And he made no effort to hide his bigotry behind anything like a veneer.
There are a lot of clips circulating from his 'ladies night' lawsuit where he literally rants about 'feminazis' and how unfair it is for men to pay $20 to go to a club on ladies night when 'they' don't have to.
He never even vaguely used the tactic you're describing. He was open and proud about his basic bigotry.
Easy E wrote: Conspiracy Theories have become much more popular with the rise of "Pop Entertainment". I say this like it is fact, but it is just my hypothesis.
I mean, I think it's a pretty good one?
I'm not sure conspiracy theories as we know them can exist within modern media.
Easy E wrote: Conspiracy Theories have become much more popular with the rise of "Pop Entertainment". I say this like it is fact, but it is just my hypothesis.
I mean, I think it's a pretty good one?
I'm not sure conspiracy theories as we know them can exist within modern media.
Easy E wrote: Conspiracy Theories have become much more popular with the rise of "Pop Entertainment". I say this like it is fact, but it is just my hypothesis.
I mean, I think it's a pretty good one?
I'm not sure conspiracy theories as we know them can exist within modern media.
As in are impossible to exist at all?
The conspiracy, or the theory about the conspiracy?
Easy E wrote: Conspiracy Theories have become much more popular with the rise of "Pop Entertainment". I say this like it is fact, but it is just my hypothesis.
I mean, I think it's a pretty good one?
I'm not sure conspiracy theories as we know them can exist within modern media.
As in are impossible to exist at all?
The conspiracy, or the theory about the conspiracy?
I mean most conspiracies, especially the typicall ones, aka shadow government etc, are just too obvious.
Easy E wrote: Conspiracy Theories have become much more popular with the rise of "Pop Entertainment". I say this like it is fact, but it is just my hypothesis.
I mean, I think it's a pretty good one?
I'm not sure conspiracy theories as we know them can exist within modern media.
As in are impossible to exist at all?
I'd never say impossible.
But I do think it's noteworthy how much media and celebrity plays in the conspiracy theory space.
fair point, how many people have listened to Alex jones f.e.
There's a whole slew of these, primarily in the social media universe.
which is probably a reason why in conjunction with algorithms and recomendations we see a lot more outspoken and obvious populations of conspiracy sphere believers.
TBF: i feel like most of the personalities, often buiding their own cults, are in it solely for the money.
Not Online!!! wrote: TBF: i feel like most of the personalities, often buiding their own cults, are in it solely for the money.
I'll certainly always remember that Rush Limbaugh left the state of Florida just a breath after telling his listeners Hurricane Irma was a hoax and that they shouldn't believe the 'liberal media' and it's 'lies'.
Not Online!!! wrote: TBF: i feel like most of the personalities, often buiding their own cults, are in it solely for the money.
I'll certainly always remember that Rush Limbaugh left the state of Florida just a breath after telling his listeners Hurricane Irma was a hoax and that they shouldn't believe the 'liberal media' and it's 'lies'.
"They put chems in the water that turn the Frigging Frogs GAY!!!!"
Proceeds to sell potentially harmfull stuff full of "chems"....
But yeah, alot of the scene seems based around these people, managing to make people believe they are literally the second coming of sliced bread, and everyone besides them is wrong.
Basically an echochamber cult.
funny normally i only need to talk about things that way when i have to deal with religious sects
The echochamber cult idea is really a great way to describe it. I've noticed that depending on your preexisting notion of the idea, you tend to find evidence that backs up that idea- this is really well illustrated with the coronavirus.
Whether schools are safe to open depends on how you view the progress of the virus. Those that already think it is unsafe rely on infection numbers and comparisons to countries that have it under control. Those that do not point to low fatality rates of children and the ineffable harm of not being in school.
But whichever side you fall on, you can find scientific studies to back up portions of your argument, because our information is incomplete and our understanding of the virus and its impacts is altering rapidly. So for the most part people reinforce their own ideas, and don't change opinions. Echochambers indeed.
The comparison between conspiracy theories/theorists and religious cults goes deeper than that, too. Very often there's a "we few in the know" vs the outside narrative at play, and in the case of people like Alex Jones a charismatic figure head who leads the righteous few in their just crusade against the oppressive forces of the unbelievers.
Gitzbitah wrote: The echochamber cult idea is really a great way to describe it. I've noticed that depending on your preexisting notion of the idea, you tend to find evidence that backs up that idea- this is really well illustrated with the coronavirus.
I saw an article very recently from someone who was at FB in the "very early" days, and was one of its original programmers. He was talking about one of the greatest failings, as he saw it, with Facebook that they didn't realize until it was too late. And that problem is the issue of trust in your friends.
See, we have a natural trust of our friends. Does this outfit look good?? Ask a friend. I need an awesome restaurant to try out on this date. . . Ask a friend. You get the idea. . . However, the issue is that when it came to things like Facebook, our friends, some of whom were already down the CT rabbit hole before Facebook came along, well, they posted their anti-vax and bigfoot and other conspiracy theorist stuff, and "we" trusted it, because it comes from a friend.
This idea that this programmer realized is a problem is that because we rely on and trust a friend's judgement so much, it allowed the proliferation of false news stories, conspiracy theories and other things which a rational person can see has been part of the major problem of "how we got where we are today" . . . and thats regarding the P word, life, religion, pandemics. . . everything.
Easy E wrote: Conspiracy Theories have become much more popular with the rise of "Pop Entertainment". I say this like it is fact, but it is just my hypothesis.
I mean, I think it's a pretty good one?
I'm not sure conspiracy theories as we know them can exist within modern media.
As in are impossible to exist at all?
The conspiracy, or the theory about the conspiracy?
I mean most conspiracies, especially the typicall ones, aka shadow government etc, are just too obvious.
But what if that's just what they want you to think?
Ensis Ferrae wrote: I saw an article very recently from someone who was at FB in the "very early" days, and was one of its original programmers. He was talking about one of the greatest failings, as he saw it, with Facebook that they didn't realize until it was too late. And that problem is the issue of trust in your friends.
See, we have a natural trust of our friends. Does this outfit look good?? Ask a friend. I need an awesome restaurant to try out on this date. . . Ask a friend. You get the idea. . . However, the issue is that when it came to things like Facebook, our friends, some of whom were already down the CT rabbit hole before Facebook came along, well, they posted their anti-vax and bigfoot and other conspiracy theorist stuff, and "we" trusted it, because it comes from a friend.
This idea that this programmer realized is a problem is that because we rely on and trust a friend's judgement so much, it allowed the proliferation of false news stories, conspiracy theories and other things which a rational person can see has been part of the major problem of "how we got where we are today" . . . and thats regarding the P word, life, religion, pandemics. . . everything.
Indeed, which is why notional "echo chambers" aren't really the problem they tend to be touted as. People hear all sorts of contradictory stuff all the time, they just have "reasons" to mis/distrust it, or push some "alternative" view.
What you are talking about is "information cascades." Which I agree about, to me, those a much bigger problem. You can find more information in my much earlier post in this thread about that and how it relates to a sort of "crippled epistemology."
Bran Dawri wrote: The comparison between conspiracy theories/theorists and religious cults goes deeper than that, too. Very often there's a "we few in the know" vs the outside narrative at play, and in the case of people like Alex Jones a charismatic figure head who leads the righteous few in their just crusade against the oppressive forces of the unbelievers.
It comes back to people who want to believe they're important enough for something or someone out there to be against them, rather than accept that they're irrelevant to the universe.
And various figures rather successfully prey on that desire.
Which is pretty easy, when it comes down to it. The Fox Mulders of the world wave that 'I want to believe' poster like a flag. You might as well go hunt bears by smearing yourself in salmon paste and honey.
although that facebook issue has an upside of shining a light on the some of the previously well hidden dingbat forkwittery of some people, but thats why the unfollow button is a thing
Easy E wrote: Conspiracy Theories have become much more popular with the rise of "Pop Entertainment". I say this like it is fact, but it is just my hypothesis.
I mean, I think it's a pretty good one?
I'm not sure conspiracy theories as we know them can exist within modern media.
As in are impossible to exist at all?
The conspiracy, or the theory about the conspiracy?
I mean most conspiracies, especially the typicall ones, aka shadow government etc, are just too obvious.
But what if that's just what they want you to think?
Who is they?
I'll let you in on a secret at the End of the Day most of the power of a state is soft power, willing compliance , with what said state embodies and even if it goes out of the Way such a state or government Relies upon in the End monopoly of force , in the case of my Country how many Bajonett for vs against you.
Even when cold war and aftermath of the spiritual defense of the Country were at it's height secret organisations or attempts to coup d'étate aleigning and having Support of the official government get found out .
There is literally no Way in hell a world government exists without it having produced a papertrail and witness Trail to Make any buerocratic states administration blush and Seem lazy.
Or Slip UPS of massive scale
OK. Hold on to your rationality and decorum, because I’m bringing up QAnon.
I’m going to be very, very careful here. It’s an inherently political subject after all. But rather than their claims and theories etc? Let’s look at the very barest of bones.
It all stems from an an entirely anonymous source, who claims, without evidence, that they’re deeply embedded in Government.
Now.....their posts? Actually kinda cryptic. Rather than claims, it’s a series of breadcrumbs and trigger points. Their readers then do the rest.
It’s basically a “how to” of starting conspiracy theories. It can be taken as entirely nonsensical. It can be taken as a joke. It can also be taken as absolute truth. A loose amalgam of posts in which those disposed to CT thought patterns can have a field day.
“Q” doesn’t actually create the theory. Rather they (and it could plural they) simply act as an agent of chaos. Creating a quagmire of utter, utter nonsense - quite possibly for their own amusement. The source may also be somewhat more nefarious in intent. For the sake of my own sanity, I trust it’s the former.
Remember the core rule of this thread. We are discussing the theory - not the theorist. And by gum are we skirting the tolerances of the mods on this one. So please do behave, and as ever, if you find things getting a bit heated, give yourself a time out. We’re 22 pages in, and we’ve done pretty well. Let’s not break our streak!
give the nutjobs some criptic thingies, and let's see what the nutjobs produce.
That said, it is not even clear if there are multiple people behind it or one as claimed.
I believe it has almost certainly been co-opted by the intelligence apparatus of nations seeking to destabilise the US as one part of an attack on the populaces faith in their government.
give the nutjobs some criptic thingies, and let's see what the nutjobs produce.
That said, it is not even clear if there are multiple people behind it or one as claimed.
I believe it has almost certainly been co-opted by the intelligence apparatus of nations seeking to destabilise the US as one part of an attack on the populaces faith in their government.
Russia and China with their Double pronged strategy would certainly be candidates...
Iran aswell but i feel more that they would Target Israel or preferebly the saudis directly.
Tbf tho the effectiveness of such Strategies Seem to relly in exploitable flaws in the Target moreso than in many other Strategies.
To be honest, I question where there’s a nefarious purpose behind it.
Simply, it’s reach isn’t terribly far, and it’s adherents tend to have been a bit bonkers before they discovered it.
That rather begs the question of “what does an external agency have to gain”, other than a bit of a laugh at others expense? Which again, seems to be the core flaw with many conspiracy theories.
Doubly so when they boil down to “X is doing Y to achieve Z”. You’ll notice I’m deliberately avoiding quoting any particular Q theory, which makes posting a wee bit tricky. It’s the same with ‘vaccines will have microchips in them to track you” type drivel. Nobody is that important. Nobody in power overly cares what their general populace are up to day to day. And private individuals will have even less reason to actually do that.
And if they did? Hope you’re not posting on Facebook, Dakka, Youtube, The Internet In General, TikTok, Instagram etc. Because they all track activity. So there’s no real need to implant a secret microchip by stealth, is there?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: To be honest, I question where there’s a nefarious purpose behind it.
Simply, it’s reach isn’t terribly far, and it’s adherents tend to have been a bit bonkers before they discovered it.
That rather begs the question of “what does an external agency have to gain”, other than a bit of a laugh at others expense? Which again, seems to be the core flaw with many conspiracy theories.
considering there was an interview with a police chief with Q-anon mug, it's influence is probably broader then many people think, also destabilising the USA, is in many ways destabilising the whole western hemissphere.
The EU as off now, even if it would somehow finalize it's reforms in a stabilizing manner (something i think is not happening mostly because of ideological setup predisposing any such multinational / cultural structure just isn't there ) , not be prepared for a geopolitical crisis in which it'd need to act decisively
Russia allready can do more or less what it wants in eastern europe, and it is willing to exploit that.
Meanwhile china is attempting to export it's branch of totalitarianism further into SEA and the middle east.
Not to mention that with the UK deciding to go away from coordination out of the wish for sovereignity will not strengthen the position of the rest of the states.
in many way, europe is asleep and the watchmen suffers from poisioning called chaos and polarisation.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: To be honest, I question where there’s a nefarious purpose behind it.
Simply, it’s reach isn’t terribly far, and it’s adherents tend to have been a bit bonkers before they discovered it.
That rather begs the question of “what does an external agency have to gain”, other than a bit of a laugh at others expense? Which again, seems to be the core flaw with many conspiracy theories.
Doubly so when they boil down to “X is doing Y to achieve Z”. You’ll notice I’m deliberately avoiding quoting any particular Q theory, which makes posting a wee bit tricky. It’s the same with ‘vaccines will have microchips in them to track you” type drivel. Nobody is that important. Nobody in power overly cares what their general populace are up to day to day. And private individuals will have even less reason to actually do that.
And if they did? Hope you’re not posting on Facebook, Dakka, Youtube, The Internet In General, TikTok, Instagram etc. Because they all track activity. So there’s no real need to implant a secret microchip by stealth, is there?
Indeed some of it reminds me of those Mitchell and Webb sketchs regarding the Moon landing and Diana ( most likely on yt)
That said I like to think that The Donald incident caused some serious overtime amongst hostile intelligence services trying to create and backfill a vast conspiracy rather than a minor side project to nudge polls a few points for shirts and giggles
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: To be honest, I question where there’s a nefarious purpose behind it.
Simply, it’s reach isn’t terribly far, and it’s adherents tend to have been a bit bonkers before they discovered it.
That rather begs the question of “what does an external agency have to gain”, other than a bit of a laugh at others expense? Which again, seems to be the core flaw with many conspiracy theories.
Many of the QAnon conspiracy theories have been later peddled by Trump and Fox News. The conspiracy theorists on 4/8chan serve as part of a filter for it. They will buy anything but when they share it with their friends and associates outside their conspiracy bubble, those people discard the wildest parts and spread the rest. This repeats until you have a conspiracy theory that many people are willing to believe and by then it has worked its way into the right-wing propaganda machine.
As well as the aforementioned police chief with the mug.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: To be honest, I question where there’s a nefarious purpose behind it.
Simply, it’s reach isn’t terribly far, and it’s adherents tend to have been a bit bonkers before they discovered it.
That rather begs the question of “what does an external agency have to gain”, other than a bit of a laugh at others expense? Which again, seems to be the core flaw with many conspiracy theories.
Many of the QAnon conspiracy theories have been later peddled by Trump and Fox News. The conspiracy theorists on 4/8chan serve as part of a filter for it. They will buy anything but when they share it with their friends and associates outside their conspiracy bubble, those people discard the wildest parts and spread the rest. This repeats until you have a conspiracy theory that many people are willing to believe and by then it has worked its way into the right-wing propaganda machine.
As well as the aforementioned police chief with the mug.
Doesn't matter even, whilest Q-Anon is more a right wing phenomena, let's not foget that in the far left you have the same ammount of nonsense and destabilisation hapening, just look at corbin and who got blamed for the lost election...
Truth is, conspiracy theories make for a good and convenient scapegoat for ones own fault, regardless where they come from, and humans are first and foremost individuals, and putting ones own head out of the responsibility is pretty commonplace behaviour.
Exploit that, and you can easily sow chaos and confusion, in some cases violence without much investment. clearing room for your own actions.
I will put this here as a 'conspiracy theory' as it will be taken as one and loudly mocked by some. I do not care about that as the warning should be given, with respect to forum rules I will not speak directly on the subject or post links but will urge channel members to search the following keywords on YouTube and other places.
RAPTURE
TRIBULATION
I heeded the warning about a 'coming plague', which came to pass, and was prepared for that, and the same watchmen warned of other events that have happened.
The credibility is there on the grounds that these people foretold right, and many have received the same dreams.
Currently there is a crescendo of warnings about sudden destruction coming, in particular to the United States. Some will be false, you need to use discernment, however many from different people line up with each other.
The most urgent warnings are:
1. Stock up and prepare NOW because something big and bad is going to happen in September, you have a lull until then to prepare.
2. There will be massive unrest in November leading to fighting in the streets and much burning.
3. There are earthquake/tsunami warnings on both coasts.
4. There will be a war.
If these do not happen remember this and mock me if you like, but please leave this post alone so that those who want to inspect the warnings for themselves and see for themselves.
Here is a helpful start keyword.
DANA COVERSTONE
snipped down for size, but really only using for reference.
I grew up in exactly this kind of religious environment. . . "careful" reading of text passages, twisted meanings, special translations, etc. all go hand in hand with this doom and gloom, or fire and brimstone rhetoric. The denominations that thrive on end times "logic" and end times teachings rely heavily on the use of fear to keep their people "in line", spoon feed them just enough hope they keep coming back, but keep them fearful of what happens next.
snipped down for size, but really only using for reference.
I grew up in exactly this kind of religious environment. . . "careful" reading of text passages, twisted meanings, special translations, etc. all go hand in hand with this doom and gloom, or fire and brimstone rhetoric. The denominations that thrive on end times "logic" and end times teachings rely heavily on the use of fear to keep their people "in line", spoon feed them just enough hope they keep coming back, but keep them fearful of what happens next.
First don't snip down for size, especially if you think you know the subject matter, as it indicates you aren't looking beyond the starting information, which intentionally limited. The keywords are there to begin a search, and will lead to the relevant content which would require whole pages to address. Now I have been known for very long posts in the past when the subject matter was permitted, but it is not now, so sadly I cannot give a more proper explanation, but keep in mind that sticking to an initial assumption on a keyword for further search is illogical, as a keyword does not of itself give enough information to come to a conclusion.
Secondly you have a very skewed idea of motive, which is why following the keywords and seeing for yourself is better than raising walls of cynicism.
If this was your experience of very controlling religious leaders in your youth then I am sorry for you, however it was not necessarily others experience or a true indicator of what is actually happening.
A good example as to why your mentality is skewed if you see a person stumbling onto a road and shouted a warning to people nearby the action could be taken as giving them a heads up to do something about it. It would literally be true that you are also instilling fear in them, but that would be an overly cynical interpretation. Similar actions can be given wildly different interpretations based on past experiences or just jaded cynicism, please do not assume malice in my motive. I have no hold on you, nor am I of any obligation to you.
Third you said you grew up in this sort of environment, indicating this was your experience in the past. That was then, this is now. Things were not like this ten years ago, it was just regular life then, five years ago it was discernable that a change was coming and now things are actively happening that make sense on a global prophetic timeline. Yes those decades ago who said 'the end is nigh so prepare now' could be seen as overly melodramatic, even if the comments held some future truth. However now is very different, the signs, and there are many, are showing the end actually is nigh. Look at it this way, if you hypothetically lived long enough the crazies with the placards will eventually be right. It just happens we now live in that time. In respect to forum rules I will not say why here, but the keywords will lead to a lot of information many of those sources are level headed and corroborate each other and warn us that the End Times are now upon us with explanation as to how and why.
NinthMusketeer wrote: The end times have been upon us since humanity invented the idea of end times.
Though I will say the whole four horsemen deal does describe the fall of Rome rather nicely.
This is true and I am mindful of it.
It was only late 2018 that I had enough evidence to draw a conclusion that we were truly approaching the End Times, and only a year later before I started properly watching for it as imminent, and I am actually quite cautious when it comes to eschatology. I honestly think I will be gone by September 2021, but that is just my guess. Many don't think we will be here for Christmas and I cannot fault their reasoning. It could happen anytime.
NinthMusketeer wrote: The end times have been upon us since humanity invented the idea of end times.
Though I will say the whole four horsemen deal does describe the fall of Rome rather nicely.
Which one are you talking about?
Look orlanth not to be mean, but we had all that, i will refer again to the Start and the list of pandemics.
No offence taken. But this goes way beyond lists of pandemics. A lot of the signs are very specific, even to name and time, given far enough back in the past that they could not have been manufactured for the current time. Take a look for yourself.
But still I heeded the warning to prepare for pandemic back in 2019, and prepared (or more like began to adapt my existing preparations). So it looks like I wasn't wasting my time.
snipped down for size, but really only using for reference.
I grew up in exactly this kind of religious environment. . . "careful" reading of text passages, twisted meanings, special translations, etc. all go hand in hand with this doom and gloom, or fire and brimstone rhetoric. The denominations that thrive on end times "logic" and end times teachings rely heavily on the use of fear to keep their people "in line", spoon feed them just enough hope they keep coming back, but keep them fearful of what happens next.
I think my search-fu is on the blink, all i got from those terms was links to spankatrix videos and that DS9 / TOS episode
NinthMusketeer wrote: The end times have been upon us since humanity invented the idea of end times.
Though I will say the whole four horsemen deal does describe the fall of Rome rather nicely.
Which one are you talking about?
Look orlanth not to be mean, but we had all that, i will refer again to the Start and the list of pandemics.
No offence taken. But this goes way beyond lists of pandemics. A lot of the signs are very specific, even to name and time, given far enough back in the past that they could not have been manufactured for the current time. Take a look for yourself.
But still I heeded the warning to prepare for pandemic back in 2019, and prepared (or more like began to adapt my existing preparations). So it looks like I wasn't wasting my time.
the end times?
You know, more wars and such, meanwhile less people die of war every year.
Meh , it's blind faith frankly, something you can witness in most religious groups btw.
There's however a difference between cultlike structures and just regular ones.
Mostly personality cults and collective payments not propperly gathered etc.
Because no one's EVER tied a large-scale suffering event into being the End Times, before. While giving all due respect to the issue of religion, by all rights in the last 2,000 years we should have seen the end of the world dozens of times by that metric.
There were people who swore the American Civil War was the end times, or the years around the turn of the 20th century. 2012 came and went, only lasting as the source of a terrible disaster movie.
I remember hearing about some cult leader guy in the early 20th century who thought that society was too sick to survive. I think he built an apartment building in Manhattan.
These kinds of people do do real harm to the people who believe them.
If you account everyone by the worst of those who believe something similar you could paint anyone as a lunatic.
I haven't even seen the video and can see a major problem already. You don't go date setting, you can reckon the season and the times, but not the day or the hour.
In any case I am making a big social risk here, come end of year if nothing of note has happened you can have another laugh at my expense, you can copy paste my comments, and I will turn up to face the music. However you may find that I was right, which oddly I do not want to be right now, frankly I would rather suffer the embarrassment.
In the meantime I have managed to usher in the warning that people need to prepare for hard times and watch for the signs of the end of the age. Maybe someone will listen. and if America has taken a nosedive and people are running around with their arses on fire (not necessarily literally), then maybe some will then listen to the next set of warnings I will then give, mostly revolving around recognising and not taking the 'Mark of the Beast'.
Orlanth wrote: I will put this here as a 'conspiracy theory' as it will be taken as one and loudly mocked by some. I do not care about that as the warning should be given, with respect to forum rules I will not speak directly on the subject or post links but will urge channel members to search the following keywords on YouTube and other places.
RAPTURE
TRIBULATION
I heeded the warning about a 'coming plague', which came to pass, and was prepared for that, and the same watchmen warned of other events that have happened.
The credibility is there on the grounds that these people foretold right, and many have received the same dreams.
Currently there is a crescendo of warnings about sudden destruction coming, in particular to the United States. Some will be false, you need to use discernment, however many from different people line up with each other.
The most urgent warnings are:
1. Stock up and prepare NOW because something big and bad is going to happen in September, you have a lull until then to prepare.
2. There will be massive unrest in November leading to fighting in the streets and much burning.
3. There are earthquake/tsunami warnings on both coasts.
4. There will be a war.
If these do not happen remember this and mock me if you like, but please leave this post alone so that those who want to inspect the warnings for themselves and see for themselves.
Here is a helpful start keyword.
DANA COVERSTONE
Yeah, very specific and vague prophecies are what I grew up with. There was the millennium, when Y2K would plunge us into a nightmarish technological dark age, if it didn't wipe us out when our nuclear missiles exploded. Many, many religious groups also prepared for the end of times.
In the lead up to it, Left Behind was published I think hinging on the prophecy of a thousand year reign on Earth.
Then, a few years later, there was the REAL millennium, which, although devoid of Y2K, was also supposed to end the world.
Then there was the Mayan Apocalypse, based off of a stone calendar that stopped. No one really talked about the idea that the Mayans were already on their 4th world, we were just doomed.
Then there was the Ebola Outbreak, which was going to kill us all horribly in 2014.
Then there was the Bird Flu or possibly it was before the Ebola- but it was supposed to wipe us out as well.
We were briefly worried about SARS, but I don't think it ever got to apocalyptic proportions in the West.
And then there was Coronavirus.
So to counterpoint-
1. It's a really safe bet to tell people there's going to be a terrible new illness in the fall. Usually we do get a variant of flu that gets a cool name, or circumvents our existing vaccine. Your prophet was luckier than most, this is the worst illness in a hundred years for humanity as a whole.
2. Rioting in the streets is happening now, and it is not November. If you look far enough, you can probably find a revolution going at any given time in the world.
3. There are 55 earthquakes a day. I really wouldn't rely on them as predictors. There's about 2 Tsunamis a year, so that's more unusual. Call the cities rather than the coast, and now we're getting somewhere.
4. The United States, unquestionably the most powerful country in the world, has been 'at war' since 9/11, active in multiple countries. Sadly, this is life now.
I must admit I was very worried when I lived through my first apocalypse scare- now they're just sort of entertaining.
NinthMusketeer wrote: The end times have been upon us since humanity invented the idea of end times.
Though I will say the whole four horsemen deal does describe the fall of Rome rather nicely.
Which one are you talking about?
Look orlanth not to be mean, but we had all that, i will refer again to the Start and the list of pandemics.
No offence taken. But this goes way beyond lists of pandemics. A lot of the signs are very specific, even to name and time, given far enough back in the past that they could not have been manufactured for the current time. Take a look for yourself.
But still I heeded the warning to prepare for pandemic back in 2019, and prepared (or more like began to adapt my existing preparations). So it looks like I wasn't wasting my time.
Aaaaand I'm done with this thread too. A discussion of why conspiracy theories happen is interesting, trying to create one here just plain bores me.
Mmm, technically "the end is nigh" isn't a conspiracy theory -no conspiracy involved in the core concept- although there is significant overlap as mentioned before in the thread.
There’s also a decent Wiki on it which goes into more depth.
It’s essentially wish fulfilment for those inclined to conspiracy theories,
Nothing concrete is ever said by “Q”. All the bonkers theories are entirely made by the reader.
As an ever evolving CT, it’s bloody fascinating to dig into. However, due to its inherently political nature, kinda tricksy to discuss on Dakka.
Put simply, the core belief is that a Certain US Politician is working against The Machine, to bring down his Rivals and Opposing Party, all of which are of course involved in the most despicable of crimes.
It’s the rabbit hole of rabbit holes. Please exercise extreme caution when looking into it further.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You may also wish to read up the Rational Wiki on the subject.
I’m not linking directly, because it’s not exactly an impartial source. But there’s stuff worth reading.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Right, time for a cool off....
Penguins aren’t real, and Pandas are just drunk people in suits.
Barring my skepticism of 9/11 which is controversial I know, I do tend to take an objective almost agnostic in ways approach to conspiracies. I agree with the above, end times etc, any day can be the end times, all you have to do is have a lunatic with WMD's get into a tiff with a nation also full to the brim with them...
Do any of you remember the conspiracy about senior conservatives in the UK operating a peadophila ring, it came mostly from the Jimmy Saville scandal.... I always thought it was a little suspicious it was swept under the carpet quite quickly in the media, with a small amount of air time given to it being false allegations. Well, with the Epstein and Prince Andrew etc etc going on, I do wonder if there was actually any truth to it, as the worlds 'elite' are evidently shook about the whole thing (on a side note, some of Trumps comments of late about Ghislaine Maxwell are unbelievable - feigning knowing she is under investigation and wishing her all the best, on the flip side of that, it is Trump though... He is wild).
I've been listening and reading a fair amount about MK Ultra as of late as well, I also want to read 'Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties' which seems absolutely incredible in terms of potential to blow MK Ultra back into the spotlight if others pick up on it and can prove any of the claims. MK Ultra is one of them post it note conspiracies in that it was a theory and has been proven true (though not all of it, such as the actual creation of sleeper agents has never been confirmed, just the experiments to create them). It's why I am skeptical, but sometimes I think certain people are so against the idea of conspiracies that they will dismiss everything. You need to keep an open mind.
One thing I have found whilst looking at social media of late, and it is super interesting if somewhat anecdotal, the BLM protests and new found distrust of government (in the UK) from those in support of BLM seem to have also turned into anti-vaxers. Total distrust of government/authorities is such a dangerous ideology when consequences of it start to play out, but it is more widespread than ever it seems now.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Do any of you remember the conspiracy about senior conservatives in the UK operating a peadophila ring, it came mostly from the Jimmy Saville scandal.... I always thought it was a little suspicious it was swept under the carpet quite quickly in the media, with a small amount of air time given to it being false allegations.
That's an... ... interesting interpretation of the media's coverage of this particular event.
Bit it does once again emphasise that when somebody wants to see a conspiracy theory they'll ignore all the evidence put before them that contradicts their fantasy.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Do any of you remember the conspiracy about senior conservatives in the UK operating a peadophila ring, it came mostly from the Jimmy Saville scandal.... I always thought it was a little suspicious it was swept under the carpet quite quickly in the media, with a small amount of air time given to it being false allegations.
That's an... ... interesting interpretation of the media's coverage of this particular event.
Bit it does once again emphasise that when somebody wants to see a conspiracy theory they'll ignore all the evidence put before them that contradicts their fantasy.
I'm not suggesting it was true, It was in the media quite heavily as the allegations were being made, then it just petered out and when it was 'debunked' it was given the same amount of space and dedication from the media that an apology would be given by them usually... Which is understandable from the media side of things, they never like to be wrong, but the conservative party themselves didn't really make a huge deal of it either, maybe because they didn't want it to keep circulating so it was a PR decision, but honestly, I only found out it had been quashed when I went looking for it when it was brought up in a conversation months later and the group talking all had no idea of the conclusion of it.
ANYWAY, in regards to Saville and how his activities were kept secret/ignored by the members of BBC, Police, NHS etc, it was plausible that members within government were also aware and maybe involved in some way (this is in regards to historical abuse BTW, not a current acting paedophile ring). Honestly though, look up the Westminster Paedophile Dossier, The Wanless Inquiry and Theresa Mays interpretation of the report made it fairly inconclusive that there was a cover up, in the sense that home office working processes could have lead to the files being accidentally destroyed or that they were intentionally to cover up, they cannot prove conclusively either way. Again, I'm not saying there was a paedophile ring and systemic abuse by those in Westminster but well, IF there was, do you think they'd want to keep the evidence around, any criminal with some common sense will destroy evidence... This then points back to why I specifically brought up MK Ultra, 50 years of 'conspiracy theories' that were laughed at by many proved to have quite a large amount of substantial truth attached to them.
I do wonder if we will ever find out the full truth about Epstein and his associates involvements and how high profile they are, but it has parallels.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Do any of you remember the conspiracy about senior conservatives in the UK operating a peadophila ring, it came mostly from the Jimmy Saville scandal.... I always thought it was a little suspicious it was swept under the carpet quite quickly in the media, with a small amount of air time given to it being false allegations.
That's an... ... interesting interpretation of the media's coverage of this particular event.
Bit it does once again emphasise that when somebody wants to see a conspiracy theory they'll ignore all the evidence put before them that contradicts their fantasy.
I'm not suggesting it was true, It was in the media quite heavily as the allegations were being made, then it just petered out and when it was 'debunked' it was given the same amount of space and dedication from the media that an apology would be given by them usually... Which is understandable from the media side of things, they never like to be wrong, but the conservative party themselves didn't really make a huge deal of it either, maybe because they didn't want it to keep circulating so it was a PR decision, but honestly, I only found out it had been quashed when I went looking for it when it was brought up in a conversation months later and the group talking all had no idea of the conclusion of it.
My recollection is that the original allegations were covered very extensively and it didn't so much peter out as the story changed once they put the liar who accused a bunch of people of being paedophiles on trial. It was pretty big news at the time, albeit the trial seemed to last a very short time because it was pretty much open-and-closed. I'm not sure what else you would expect from a made-up story other than for it to gradually disappear because there's not actually anything to report.
In regards to Carl Beech who made some, not all of the allegations was convicted last year for making them up, which discredits the theory massively, but it still doesn't account for the historical allegations made against those in Westminster, and the dossier of evidence that went missing.
I know someone who has been following those historical allegations, and was a bit surprised when Carl Beech happened.
It does look as though a lot of the older allegations were buried when that got dismissed.
When some evidence appears and gets canned, other related stuff either gets added or removed to as the 'conspiracy' unfolds.
Orlanth wrote: [Yes those decades ago who said 'the end is nigh so prepare now' could be seen as overly melodramatic, even if the comments held some future truth.
Except, they werent any more melodramatic than this one is today. I'm sorry if you believe the whole biblical end times nonsense, but the simple fact is, it requires some cherry picked reading of religious texts combined with cherry picked current events. Just because you personally were living in fear of the future and made preparations, does not verify the "truth" of some prophecy.
The "boy who cried wolf" and broken clocks and all that.
Orlanth wrote: [Yes those decades ago who said 'the end is nigh so prepare now' could be seen as overly melodramatic, even if the comments held some future truth.
Except, they weren't any more melodramatic than this one is today. I'm sorry if you believe the whole biblical end times nonsense, but the simple fact is, it requires some cherry picked reading of religious texts combined with cherry picked current events. Just because you personally were living in fear of the future and made preparations, does not verify the "truth" of some prophecy.
The "boy who cried wolf" and broken clocks and all that.
For you to have any rationality to claim I was cherry picking ANYTHING, you would have to know my arguments, and then added context, as you don't know the former and wont look at the latter you are only clutching at straws.
One of the worst means of misrepresentation is to put a false argument in the mouth of your opponent and then dumb it down further. You are making statements on what I believe without the courtesy of actually finding out what I believe.
You don't know me kiddo, I don't live in fear for a start. When I prepared it was obedience not fear and I am secure in my future.
Skinnereal wrote: I know someone who has been following those historical allegations, and was a bit surprised when Carl Beech happened.
It does look as though a lot of the older allegations were buried when that got dismissed.
When some evidence appears and gets canned, other related stuff either gets added or removed to as the 'conspiracy' unfolds.
This is partly my point, unless there was a conspiracy to create a conspiracy which is a possibility - it was labour (obviously) who were hounding the conservatives over it all back in 2014, maybe the concocted the whole thing - then I truly believe there is no smoke without a fire. I think the same will come to light with the Epstein case as well, it won't be as holistically engraved within the elite as it is being suggested, but there will be something there.
Again, referencing back to MK Ultra, and also the latest information releases by the pentagon in regards to UFO's. For all the discrediting of people, calling people crazy etc etc etc, there was SOME truth to it, and some people who were labelled as ridiculous fanatics were in fact done so harshly. Yeah, maybe it wasn't actual life from outside this planet, and I tend to think most who talk about being abducted are not actually telling the truth, but there have been objects in our skies that experts absolutely cannot explain.
Another thing to throw on the fire for debate, it was deemed there is no legal avenue to charged Tony Blair for war crimes, or George W Bush for that matter, domestically or internationally.... Why is that not possible? It isn't a conspiracy of such, but why would international war prosecutors not want to pursue that or even change the law so future transgressions of the like could be prosecuted. I'm not claiming an illuminati or anything, but there are very questionable ethical practices that go on at the highest levels of leadership on this planet, with favours/deals always in play.
I have been (mostly) enjoying some sweet chilli pork scratchings of late. There is an RNG going on when you open the packet. Depending on where it is in the cooking vat you can get extra chilli in your portion. So I one time ended up with a nasty mouth burner that I could barely finish.
Do any of you remember the conspiracy about senior conservatives in the UK operating a peadophila ring, it came mostly from the Jimmy Saville scandal.... I always thought it was a little suspicious it was swept under the carpet quite quickly in the media, with a small amount of air time given to it being false allegations.
Operation Yewtree led to 19 arrests and 7 convictions and launched Operations Ravine, Hydrant, and Midland. Midland and Yewtree were massively high profile, received huge coverage in flagship news programmes, and were repeatedly tackled both in parliament and in select committees.
Do any of you remember the conspiracy about senior conservatives in the UK operating a peadophila ring, it came mostly from the Jimmy Saville scandal.... I always thought it was a little suspicious it was swept under the carpet quite quickly in the media, with a small amount of air time given to it being false allegations.
Operation Yewtree led to 19 arrests and 7 convictions and launched Operations Ravine, Hydrant, and Midland. Midland and Yewtree were massively high profile, received huge coverage in flagship news programmes, and were repeatedly tackled both in parliament and in select committees.
What I am referring to was highlighted because of Yewtree and Midland, but were seperate to those specific allegations/inquires. Carl Beech was not involved as a source of the specific Westminster Dossier, though it was reported as being affiliated by the media though they were not (as it would be, both are about paedophiles operating in Westminster).
Im firmly believe that like, most of the worlds government has at one point participated in that ring or another.
Every politician, no matter how good, has done something horrible to get into power, even the ones i like.
Do any of you remember the conspiracy about senior conservatives in the UK operating a peadophila ring, it came mostly from the Jimmy Saville scandal.... I always thought it was a little suspicious it was swept under the carpet quite quickly in the media, with a small amount of air time given to it being false allegations.
Operation Yewtree led to 19 arrests and 7 convictions and launched Operations Ravine, Hydrant, and Midland. Midland and Yewtree were massively high profile, received huge coverage in flagship news programmes, and were repeatedly tackled both in parliament and in select committees.
What I am referring to was highlighted because of Yewtree and Midland, but were seperate to those specific allegations/inquires. Carl Beech was not involved as a source of the specific Westminster Dossier, though it was reported as being affiliated by the media though they were not (as it would be, both are about paedophiles operating in Westminster).
We also now know that Cyril Smith had a questionable past which has only been partly investigated posthumously. There will be inevitable questions of who knew, even if nobody important did, and if nobody important did there will be no means to prove that.
Not all such cases are as ambiguous, but even unambiguous cases are not investigated properly.
My main concern here is that members of the establishment certain did know about Saville, and not enough has been done to expose this and bring former executives to account. Furthermore the high profile investigations ito Sir Cliff Richard and Dave Lee Travis are believed by some to be a smokescreen to protect senior members of the BBC. Sir Cliff was treated very poorly by the press particularly the BBC and it was made difficult for him to clear his name. Dave Lee Travis has gone on record claiming the abortive investigation into himself was times to draw attention away from BBC executives.
I believe this with good reason. First John Lydon (Johnny Rotten) attempted to warn people but his commentary doing so was censored and only aired after Saville's death. Second I was at boarding school with the son of a BBC executive in the late 70's, I remember being among a group of boys talking about the popular 'Jim'll Fix It' show, the BBC executives son was very sullen and when I asked him what he would want Jim to fix he said very firmly that he would have nothing to do with Jimmy Saville, and warned me not to either. When I asked why he said so, when I reacted with disbelief he doubled down, saying that his father had asked him to warn other boys about Saville. I was still confused by this as I couldn't believe Saville could do nasty things to boys without being stopped, it made no sense, but I remember the serious tone of the warning at the back of my mind until decades later when Saville died and his past was revealed.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im firmly believe that like, most of the worlds government has at one point participated in that ring or another.
Every politician, no matter how good, has done something horrible to get into power, even the ones i like.
I don't necessarily believe to the same extent, but politics and politicians are corrupted almost universally, there are very few who generally are in politics/positions of power for the right reasons, and a lot of the time, those that do get involved for noble reasons end up being processed by the system... Power corrupts after all.
It's literally embedded within major political parties in the UK to persuade against voting or acting outside of party policy, that's why each party has a whip after all.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I don't necessarily believe to the same extent, but politics and politicians are corrupted almost universally, there are very few who generally are in politics/positions of power for the right reasons, and a lot of the time, those that do get involved for noble reasons end up being processed by the system... Power corrupts after all.
It's literally embedded within major political parties in the UK to persuade against voting or acting outside of party policy, that's why each party has a whip after all.
Wellp and here i thought the representative System should represent the people voting locally for a representative and not the Party ?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I don't necessarily believe to the same extent, but politics and politicians are corrupted almost universally, there are very few who generally are in politics/positions of power for the right reasons, and a lot of the time, those that do get involved for noble reasons end up being processed by the system... Power corrupts after all.
It's literally embedded within major political parties in the UK to persuade against voting or acting outside of party policy, that's why each party has a whip after all.
Wellp and here i thought the representative System should represent the people voting locally for a representative and not the Party ?
Local representation is a funny one, mainly because a fair amount of MP's don't actually reside or come from the constituency they represent, meaning they actual have about as much intimate knowledge of local issues as anyone else from outside the area. This becomes less of an issue the more times an MP is re-elected but yeah, that's just one small issue of many with local representation.
In regards to the use of the party whip, to be fair it's only usually ever enforced with big votes that are crux in terms of policy. Voting outside of party policy is not impossible, but you will be harming your future chances of senior roles within the party by doing so, which when circling back to my point that politics corrupts, that is exactly how it occurs, because if an MP does have higher aspirations, they must vote in a fashion that their own ideology may be in conflict with.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Because it is a two way street; the voters are as incompetent at selecting candidates as the candidates are at being decent humans.
?!?
How can you be a competent voter when Parties can just entrench themselves thanks to the System and don't have to fear the voter?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I don't necessarily believe to the same extent, but politics and politicians are corrupted almost universally, there are very few who generally are in politics/positions of power for the right reasons, and a lot of the time, those that do get involved for noble reasons end up being processed by the system... Power corrupts after all.
It's literally embedded within major political parties in the UK to persuade against voting or acting outside of party policy, that's why each party has a whip after all.
I do not believe power corrupts. Not at all, Power Reveals.
I just think that those that seek power tend to not do it for the right reasons.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Because it is a two way street; the voters are as incompetent at selecting candidates as the candidates are at being decent humans.
?!? How can you be a competent voter when Parties can just entrench themselves thanks to the System and don't have to fear the voter?
In the words of Socrates:
"If you are given a choice between liking a physicians who tells you to excercise and eat healthy but not great tasting things and a sweet shop owner who encourages you to eat sweets...
Lets just say that we have a lot of sweet owners in power"
For the record Socrates lamented democracy and vote eligibility by virtue of birth alone towards the end of his years apparently. Make of that what you will.
But what if this is indeed a simulation and we are the top tier meta player base? Surely its time for a nerf.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Because it is a two way street; the voters are as incompetent at selecting candidates as the candidates are at being decent humans.
?!?
How can you be a competent voter when Parties can just entrench themselves thanks to the System and don't have to fear the voter?
Can you show me some evidence that these candidates are able to hold onto their positions even if they lose a re-election bid?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I don't necessarily believe to the same extent, but politics and politicians are corrupted almost universally, there are very few who generally are in politics/positions of power for the right reasons, and a lot of the time, those that do get involved for noble reasons end up being processed by the system... Power corrupts after all.
It's literally embedded within major political parties in the UK to persuade against voting or acting outside of party policy, that's why each party has a whip after all.
I do not believe power corrupts. Not at all, Power Reveals.
I just think that those that seek power tend to not do it for the right reasons.
I agree. Also, the average person may not be morally bankrupt but they certainly default on loans when it matters.
The overarching structures are simply an accumulation of long term trends. If candidates that buck the party line are continually elected you can bet the party line is going to change. At it does, as we have seen demonstrated in dramatic fashion.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im firmly believe that like, most of the worlds government has at one point participated in that ring or another.
Every politician, no matter how good, has done something horrible to get into power, even the ones i like.
I recall a couple of "documentary" type series that brought up certain conspiracies as they relate to secret societies and various "behind closed doors" activities. One of them brings up Benjamin Franklin got up to all kinds of stuff, and there was apparently some burgeoning conspiracy theorists way back then because he was seen heading to this "notorious" secret society hideout (it was a bit like, Avengers Tower, or the Fantastic Four tower. . . like, the worst kept "secret" spot for superheroes to be hiding out). . ANYHOW, in some of those instances, particularly the episode relating to Benjamin Franklin, it turned out that really, he just got roped in to a group of libertines and they were going to their "secret" hide out for massive, massive orgies.
I quote hotsauceman, and bring up the "organized orgies" thing with Ben because while I think that there are a large number of people who are in political power who are also part of "secret societies", I happen to think that, if the truth got out about many of these, we'd find out it was similar to the old party animal's happenings and its far more "boring" than a group of uber powerful people meeting in secret to plot global events. . . In regards to pedo rings, that, I don't think is quite as pervasive, but at the same time if ANY name comes up as a powerful person who participated with it, I wouldn't be surprised.
Things like large orgy groups would, IMO, be much easier to "hide" from public view than anything that results in significant political policy shift, especially if those policies lead to military conflict and deaths of various populations.
Hellfire Club is documented, and it was pretty much wealthy people doing lots and lots of......well.....procreation practice, shall we call it?
We see shades of it in the modern day, at least to some degree. Look up David Cameron and Pigs Head.
The (actually plausible, but not necessarily true) theory is that people from wealth undergo embarrassing entry (oooer) ‘rituals’, to provide those behind the scenes with compromising material.
Is this actually true. Or is it just University students to whom money is no matter being Bloody Students* to the nth degree? I honestly don’t know.
As I mentioned above, it’s plausible....but that doesn’t make it true.
*not to be confused with run of the mill students. There is a difference. I’ll explain it over PM if anyone wants to know.
I was only previously aware of two versions of bloody students;
the so young, so pure...
or
the ones its okay to hit with snooker balls in a sock
but 20 year old plus UK comedy references aside I suspect most of the antics ascribed to docs version are mostly at best half truths as bloke falls asleep under table or coked up posho underwhelms partner isnt quite so legendary
Hellfire Club is documented, and it was pretty much wealthy people doing lots and lots of......well.....procreation practice, shall we call it?
We see shades of it in the modern day, at least to some degree. Look up David Cameron and Pigs Head.
The (actually plausible, but not necessarily true) theory is that people from wealth undergo embarrassing entry (oooer) ‘rituals’, to provide those behind the scenes with compromising material.
Is this actually true. Or is it just University students to whom money is no matter being Bloody Students* to the nth degree? I honestly don’t know.
As I mentioned above, it’s plausible....but that doesn’t make it true.
*not to be confused with run of the mill students. There is a difference. I’ll explain it over PM if anyone wants to know.
One could argue that if some sort of "cabal" / "elite command structure" existed it stands to reason they would have exactly nthis structure in place.
Want to control somebody? Have a photo or video of them doing some illegal/extremely immoral acts. Then you can dangle it in front of them if they dont want to play ball.
I used to think the lolita express /Epstein's R&%e island was a bolony conspiracy theory. Now we know..
So if that is true what on earth is the whole thing they do with the Owl statue and the wierd noises? Human sacrifice ? Some other bizarre ritual ?
I think its plausible that any degree of imaginable or unimaginable psychotic and abhorrent behaviour is taking place. If Liberian warlords are cannibalising people to get spiritual powers today, and human sacrifice/execution has been taken place through history I see no reason why degenerated abhorrent extreme psychopaths are not in positions of wealth, power and possible immunity from prosecution doing this sort of stuff. After all, if you have untold billions is it out of the realm of possibility that you can just make enough people and things "dissapear".
Once you go down this rabbit hole though it just doesn't end and you end up like a certain someone believing people being are actual demons, lizard people, goblins and or extra dimensional what nots..
But what if indeed we are being farmed for our emotions by some sort of other dimensional being? What if fear predators are real? And that is what you access when you DMT.. Maybe tzeench is feasting..
Hellfire Club is documented, and it was pretty much wealthy people doing lots and lots of......well.....procreation practice, shall we call it?
Maybe?? Lol, it has been a bit since I saw the documentaries, which is why the names of groups/societies is escaping me atm. . .
My own personal theory on these sorts of clubs: We now know that, once a person's wealth reaches a certain point, we know a couple of things: 1, there's no earthly way they could possibly spend it all. 2, modern researchers now believe there's some "disorder" at work where the only aim in life is the accumulation of more wealth. . . Well, on the first point, my personal theory is that, due to the fact that these ultra wealthy/ultra powerful people, who cannot possibly spend their way to "happiness", attempt to find "joy" in other ways, and engaging in clandestine sexy-time clubs that violate social norms is one way to do that. While I'm sure there are groups like the Hellfire Club may still exist today, doing legal but naughty things, we also know (a la Epstein) that some get up to some illegal and naughty things.
Hellfire Club is documented, and it was pretty much wealthy people doing lots and lots of......well.....procreation practice, shall we call it?
We see shades of it in the modern day, at least to some degree. Look up David Cameron and Pigs Head.
The (actually plausible, but not necessarily true) theory is that people from wealth undergo embarrassing entry (oooer) ‘rituals’, to provide those behind the scenes with compromising material.
Is this actually true. Or is it just University students to whom money is no matter being Bloody Students* to the nth degree? I honestly don’t know.
As I mentioned above, it’s plausible....but that doesn’t make it true.
*not to be confused with run of the mill students. There is a difference. I’ll explain it over PM if anyone wants to know.
Ohh explain it to me!!!!
But as to that, I don't think it's a conspiracy to run the world, I just think govt official and rich people do alot of shady gak
Like it it came out that Trump, Koch Brothers, and Clinton's hunted the poor on Epstein's island.....would we be surprised?
Yes, the ongoing Epstein horror shows that wealthy people are sometimes shielded from justice.
But we must all bear in mind that those born into wealth tend to move in their own circles.
Consider. Wealthy couple have a kid. They send that kid to an excellent private school, because they can afford to, and the education is seen as superior to state school.
So from a very young age, that kid is only interacting with people from a similar background. The parents will also interact with each other. This may lead to joint ventures if the parents are involved in industry etc.
They form a clique of wealth, privilege and networking.
Poorer people kind of do the same, but without the background wealth, can’t really get the same advantage.
Note I am note criticising here, just explaining. I have my own thoughts as to the justice of it all, but those are inherently political, so not for Dakka.
For a lighter take on it? The Young Ones covered it with their usual panache decades ago. Language warning!
Yes, the ongoing Epstein horror shows that wealthy people are sometimes shielded from justice.
But we must all bear in mind that those born into wealth tend to move in their own circles.
Consider. Wealthy couple have a kid. They send that kid to an excellent private school, because they can afford to, and the education is seen as superior to state school.
So from a very young age, that kid is only interacting with people from a similar background. The parents will also interact with each other. This may lead to joint ventures if the parents are involved in industry etc.
They form a clique of wealth, privilege and networking.
Poorer people kind of do the same, but without the background wealth, can’t really get the same advantage.
Note I am note criticising here, just explaining. I have my own thoughts as to the justice of it all, but those are inherently political, so not for Dakka.
For a lighter take on it? The Young Ones covered it with their usual panache decades ago. Language warning!
I mean that is why i personally have a problem with private education. It all pretty much exists for two reasons. to keep you kid from learning things you might not want them to(like sending them to catholic school) or too make sure they stay in their own little bubble of influenece and gak like that.
Yes, the ongoing Epstein horror shows that wealthy people are sometimes shielded from justice.
But we must all bear in mind that those born into wealth tend to move in their own circles.
Consider. Wealthy couple have a kid. They send that kid to an excellent private school, because they can afford to, and the education is seen as superior to state school.
So from a very young age, that kid is only interacting with people from a similar background. The parents will also interact with each other. This may lead to joint ventures if the parents are involved in industry etc.
They form a clique of wealth, privilege and networking.
Poorer people kind of do the same, but without the background wealth, can’t really get the same advantage.
Note I am note criticising here, just explaining. I have my own thoughts as to the justice of it all, but those are inherently political, so not for Dakka.
For a lighter take on it? The Young Ones covered it with their usual panache decades ago. Language warning!
I mean that is why i personally have a problem with private education. It all pretty much exists for two reasons. to keep you kid from learning things you might not want them to(like sending them to catholic school) or too make sure they stay in their own little bubble of influenece and gak like that.
you see, funnily enough it turned out the excact opposite over here, teaching in rural catholic kantons was often halfways delegated to the church, but that ended in a whole slew of really wierd demmands, like , direct democracy and more expenses for the schooling system, etc.
And that has to do with the difference probably of the segregating nature by class, rather then via religion.
private schools that just rich kids are on are pretty much an issue regardless not to mention bought educational titles...
Not Online!!! wrote: So, how Long until people state that the Explosion in Beirut was an Inside job?
I've already seen people do it, mostly by saying "that stuff doesn't explode on its own". I have no idea if that is true, or if its holds true when talking about thousands of tons of the stuff.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: Why would Israel use a nuke? They could have just launched a rocket or used artillery and no one would say boo about it.
I would have thought the most immediately stupid part of that idea was that a nuke would already have left detectable and descernable radiation and would have been a much MUCH bigger blast. You can't secretly nuke things. It doesn't work. Russia and the US both tried and failed to hide nuclear test/disasters and it never works because the aftermath is too detectable.
Propperly stored, maintained by Trained personel, Stuff shouldn't explode, thing is shouldn't...
Human error can allways happen, think Off munitionsfactories etc.
And neither Off the above was a given.
Yeah, incredibly unlikely to have been a Nuclear weapon. One suspects the very first thing, following an explosion on that scale, would be to whip out the old Geiger Counter to establish it wasn’t, as the ongoing health risk of fallout would require different actions entirely.
So, like all “good” Conspiracy Theories, it falls at the first jump. There’s also the question of “even if it was, what advantage is to be had by the target country covering it up?”.
Especially given who the nutters claim to be behind it. There are agendas in that region which would be all over the merest shred of evidence that Israel had lobbed a Nuke at any target, let alone a civilian target.
So confident we can rule out a nuke.
Further thoughts on the Epstein Debacle. It’s also important to remember that that sort of organised thing is proven, through successful prosecutions, to occur at all levels of society. Rich, Poor, every level.
The U.K. equivalent, which lead to Operation Yewtree etc demonstrated not a conspiracy among the rich and powerful, but a wider society prepared, at the time, to turn a blind eye to it. Talking about it, even (possibly especially) as a victim was seen as taboo. Law enforcement was lackadaisical, and rarely took reports all that seriousness.
This lead more or less directly to Metoo. A movement to highlight just how widespread such things, regardless of the age of a given victim, are in our society.
There were two explosions, it was most likely not a weapon, and almost certainly not a nuclear weapon. The explosion looks similar to a MOAB I'll add, but that is easily explained as it was a pressurised explosion.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: There were two explosions, it was most likely not a weapon, and almost certainly not a nuclear weapon. The explosion looks similar to a MOAB I'll add, but that is easily explained as it was a pressurised explosion.
Deflagration initially as the fuel for the bigger one.
i mean it is not unlikely
To be honest, considering the reports coming out, and the fact it was at a port with a lot going on, I'd imagine if it was terrorism/an attack the most likely outcome is that it was sabotage of the ammonium nitrate store... Also, and this is important, the colour of the smoke/vapour after the explosion indicates it most certainly was an ammonium nitrate explosion, not a weapon, it's a fairly unique side effect of the chemical exploding.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There's also not the kind of thermal flash a nuclear weapon would produce. Really the only checkbox the explosion ticks is "big boom".
That might be part of why people jump to 'nuke'. Even people who've seen explosions have probably never seen one that freaking massive and it might be hard to rationalize that simple chemicals can produce such a huge blast.
It is an odd thing. But then, most explosions people are likely to see either involve very, very small amounts of explosives (individual terror attacks on TV, fireworks etc), or ridiculously well planned (demolitions, pyrotechnics in films).
Given the staggering amount of AN involved here, it’s really difficult to get a handle on.
Basically, leading personel is not willing to mentor upstarts of the other gender in order to not get accused of something later on.
is that effect felt, i don't know, atleast nationaly over here not really, but then again over here metoo wasn't really a thing.
There's a complete difference with multinational companies though, which indeed show sometimes such avoidance behaviour..
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Why would Israel use a nuke? They could have just launched a rocket or used artillery and no one would say boo about it.
Coworker of mine has a set up at his stall where he and the other used car tech both just live stream politics and/or baseball. . . All. Day. Long.
Anyhow, within about 15-20 minutes of the explosion story breaking in the first place, he comes up and tells us (while getting a part) that apparently on Twitter, Israel's PM, Netanyahu had tweeted out claiming that it was indeed a tactical strike by Israel. . . But weirdly, according to my co-worker, the tweet claimed that Israel had launched the attack in order to destroy a nuclear device illegally obtained by other forces in the area (ie, Hezbollah)
Which begs the question. . . Does Israel's PM have a twitter and know how to use it, or is this an account similar to a "DonaldJTrump" style deep-fake parody account, or was the genuine account hacked?
I’m pretty sure that, if Israel or Mossad knew about a terrorist group with a nuclear device, they would have struck a lot harder, struck multiple targets whether they needed to or not, and made sure the whole world knew that they had stopped some terrorists from nuking your city, and here’s how they knew, and here’s how you can repay them, and you’re welcome.
Is he living in Cuba with his aunt after faking his own death? Did Suge Knight pay off corrupt police officers to kill off his record labels biggest star after Tupac threatened leaving due to a bad record deal? Was it the Notorious B.I.G. who orchestrated the killing?
One of the, if not the biggest pop culture conspiracy theories in recent times.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: I’m pretty sure that, if Israel or Mossad knew about a terrorist group with a nuclear device, they would have struck a lot harder, struck multiple targets whether they needed to or not, and made sure the whole world knew that they had stopped some terrorists from nuking your city, and here’s how they knew, and here’s how you can repay them, and you’re welcome.
It's also incredibly difficult to steal/obtain a nuke. There are unaccounted for nuclear weapons in the world but not many and all are old...
It's not a curse its a blessing!
This is your chance to free yourself from the torment and torment and torture of iTech and their iInterfaces! A chance for freedom toward devices that at least let you have some control over your machine and destiny whilst releasing you from the chocking grappling hold of the iUpgrade - that annual pilgrimage to update your machine!
Don't bow to the pressures; run free from the iTech!
For those from the UK that are familiar with the term S**thousery, please keep that in mind as I present this now...
We've all seen the pictures of the aftermath with that building that is still standing at the centre of the blast in Beirut.... Yet an office furniture fire caused tower 7 to fall?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: For those from the UK that are familiar with the term S**thousery, please keep that in mind as I present this now...
We've all seen the pictures of the aftermath with that building that is still standing at the centre of the blast in Beirut.... Yet an office furniture fire caused tower 7 to fall?
The million tons of debris falling down nedt door might have shaken things up.
Look at that Beirut picture again. That building is farked. Most of the energy was dissipated in the front half of the silos, like a car crumple zone. The explosion was also very "uppy" and only marginally side-y.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: For those from the UK that are familiar with the term S**thousery, please keep that in mind as I present this now...
We've all seen the pictures of the aftermath with that building that is still standing at the centre of the blast in Beirut.... Yet an office furniture fire caused tower 7 to fall?
The million tons of debris falling down nedt door might have shaken things up.
Look at that Beirut picture again. That building is farked. Most of the energy was dissipated in the front half of the silos, like a car crumple zone. The explosion was also very "uppy" and only marginally side-y.
And the fact that grain silos usually are ridiculously robust. The grain elevator that formed the linchpin of the Red Army's defense of Stalingrad is the prime example.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: And the fact that grain silos usually are ridiculously robust. The grain elevator that formed the linchpin of the Red Army's defense of Stalingrad is the prime example.
Yep (and the tons of grain will also absorb and redirect some of the force, especially as the silo has natural weak points at the top and bottom, and side taking the blast will become another).
By comparison, all the warehouses in the other directions are basically flattened.
So, memes on Facebook insisting that any laws mandating the wearing of Masks aren’t to combat the spread of COVID-19, but a way to spot who’ll be a “a good little sheep” and “who’ll resist the NWO”....
If we assume that’s true and, you know, not utterly laughable, surely you’d want to wear a mask to hide in plain sight? And certainly not post online about how you’re onto Them?
one would assume they'd be afraid of the black helicopter rides, but then again all the nutjobs sit on social media day in day out with the perfect tool to track them anyways...
Like if there really would be this tyrannnical secret NWO, they'd allready started collecting the nutjobs and putting them where they don't see the light of the day and not letting them shout from the rooftops
Especially as it’s the very same Them/They who apparently disappear hundreds of thousands each year.
Still, much as I poke fun at Conspiracy Theories, I do have genuine concern and regard for some of them and their mental health. You can tell when someone’s been suckered in by a sense of belonging, and it’s not nice to see.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Especially as it’s the very same Them/They who apparently disappear hundreds of thousands each year.
Still, much as I poke fun at Conspiracy Theories, I do have genuine concern and regard for some of them and their mental health. You can tell when someone’s been suckered in by a sense of belonging, and it’s not nice to see.
I will point to a post in the past in this very thread:
Conspiracy thories can have massive realworld implications if adopted by ideologically radical fringes.
Vittorio mutilata, f.e. one of the core tenants of italian 20th century fascism.
Dolchstosslegende: for the Nazis same as above but from the "loser" side.
Trotzkyite complot: For the stalinists.
Kulaks: for Soviets.
most of these make a specific group into scapegoats, dehumanize them and then eliminate them.
And they make the jump from lie and wrong to Mythos and therefore core tenent of ones identity extremely fast.
What concerns me more is that nowadys conspiracy theories started to target specific people, like bill gates, f.e.
Also the feeling of belonging is basically just a given for all the cults claiming to be the owner of the universal truth. It's exclusivity and the feel of beeing vanguard for a cause. Elitism so to speak. And it is probably the strongest factor of why such groups don't question coherency.
In many ways i suspect we have also seen an increase in followers of such groups be they religious or political ones due to the somewhat waning power of religious and national institutions in europe which lost a lot of their ideological driving force.
Slipspace wrote: Then there's the why. Flat Earth is my big "why?" conspiracy. Apart from being obviously complete bullgak it's also a conspiracy without any reason. I don't understand who benefits from claiming a flat Earth is actually a globe other than a bunch of vague assertions that "NASA does...for some reason".
I always thought it was a debating club thing from private English schools - it's an attempt to debate an obviously nonense point to show how skilled a debater you are. It then seems to have spawned into a "secret society" and have been given new life in the last few years.
They seem to think that the Government needs the Round Earth theory in order to allow them to invest billions into NASA. For some reason the government needs a massive lie; a global lie, in order to invest its money like that.
At least that's one line that keeps coming up in their videos - that they spend all this money making a lie so they can have all the money.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So, memes on Facebook insisting that any laws mandating the wearing of Masks aren’t to combat the spread of COVID-19, but a way to spot who’ll be a “a good little sheep” and “who’ll resist the NWO”....
If we assume that’s true and, you know, not utterly laughable, surely you’d want to wear a mask to hide in plain sight? And certainly not post online about how you’re onto Them?
But you can't be 'in' with the sheep, you've got to stand out from the conformists, by dressing and acting just like all the other goth/punk/metal kids!
Funny thing is... The sainsburys near where I used to live still tells people to pull their hoods down and the no bike helmet rules are still in place.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So, memes on Facebook insisting that any laws mandating the wearing of Masks aren’t to combat the spread of COVID-19, but a way to spot who’ll be a “a good little sheep” and “who’ll resist the NWO”....
If we assume that’s true and, you know, not utterly laughable, surely you’d want to wear a mask to hide in plain sight? And certainly not post online about how you’re onto Them?
I was in town on Saturday, for my sins, and there was a group of these people near the town hall, trying to convince people not to wear masks, and that COVID isn't real.
I get that freedom of speech is a thing, but so is "reckless endangerment"...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I’ve got a Save Ferris and “Spaceballs The Face Mask” coming.
Hold up, Doc - where can one acquire the latter from?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Especially as it’s the very same Them/They who apparently disappear hundreds of thousands each year.
Still, much as I poke fun at Conspiracy Theories, I do have genuine concern and regard for some of them and their mental health. You can tell when someone’s been suckered in by a sense of belonging, and it’s not nice to see.
Ive seen a "new" one crop up on my social media, especially among certain "groups" . . .
Many of y'all have undoubtedly seen a new spate of child-trafficking stuff. Now, the pizzagate and typical QAnon stuff is popping up and isn't new, but the new one is that I've a cousin who's shared vidoes showing how a certain brand of doll has "invisible" lingerie (the video creator does this "on camera" despite us viewers never seeing the water, bowl or anything other than her moving the doll off screen for a few seconds), and photographs of one "concerned" parent now linking Covid mask mandates to child-trafficking (using their own kid to "model" how one could theoretically duct tape a young childs mouth shut, and then cover it with a mask)
I do want to be absolutely clear here: I do think that trafficking, and trafficking of children especially is a major problem facing the world. . . What I do have issue with is the extent to which people are actively *looking* for conspiracy
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So, memes on Facebook insisting that any laws mandating the wearing of Masks aren’t to combat the spread of COVID-19, but a way to spot who’ll be a “a good little sheep” and “who’ll resist the NWO”....
If we assume that’s true and, you know, not utterly laughable, surely you’d want to wear a mask to hide in plain sight? And certainly not post online about how you’re onto Them?
But you can't be 'in' with the sheep, you've got to stand out from the conformists, by dressing and acting just like all the other goth/punk/metal kids!
Thats because they've never heard of the Grey Man concept.
The most plausible mask CS is they are refining their non visual recognition tracking. Gait analysis, phome movement logging and the like. There is literally nothing a "covid scare" can't allow a government/they to do that they couldn't do already.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Never mind that they’re often posting to social media, using mobile devices.
I mean, it’s not as if youtube, Facebook, tiktok et al track us. Not at all!
But where can they fight the tyranical [insert conspiracy group of your choice] conspiracy? where else? What do you mean they'd have to get on their asses and out of the basement dwelling they have?
Argive wrote: Anyone find the facemasks to be a huge issue when wearing glasses ? Hate going shopping atm as I cant see anything lol.
Yes, but it fixes itself eventually in most cases as your glasses reach ambient temperature. The issue is caused by the temperature differential between the air and the lenses. I find after about 4-5 minutes it pretty much fixes itself. Breathing out through my mouth also seems to help for some reason.
I've been listening to a book on the history of the Samurai that's really more of a vague history of Japan than anything but that works for me.
Anyway, one of the biggest and most romanticized figures of Japanese history is Minomoto Yoshitsune. I'd keep it short and say "he's Japanese Achilles" cause I think that gets the basic idea across best. He was a warrior in their Medieval period and he died after the Genpei War in what is generally regarded as a tragedy (his brother decided he should die, TLDR).
Anyway, years ago I heard someone talking about a theory that there were people who thought Yoshitsune didn't actually die. That he escaped his pursuers and made it to China and then Mongolia where he reappeared as Genghis Khan. Apparently the two men were roughly the same age - Yoshitsune was in his early 20s when he died and Khan was in his early 20s when he first appears in the historical record and they come in 'back-to-back'.
For a long time I assumed this was a more modern fringe idea, maybe connected to long standing feuding between Japan, Korea, and China.
Apparently I was wrong.
When the Mongols were setting out to invade Japan in the 13th century, people in Japan at the time believed this; that Genghis Khan was Yoshitsune and that the mongols were coming to Japan as part of some long revenge plot against the Kamakura shogunate (whose founder was the brother caused Yoshitsune's 'death'). The author didn't spend much time on this but I wish he'd spent more. Here we have a 13th century conspiracy theory about a then increasingly unpopular government mixed in with a romantic culture hero from the past, strung along by the thinnest string of facts.
That’s actually a pretty cool theory. Like a historical “Gaddafi was actually Lord Lucan” type thing.
Will defo read more into it.
And in terms of the failed Mongol invasion of Japan, there was (is?) a really cool documentary which covered it from an archaeological point of view.
Essentially, the remains of the Mongol fleet has been found. Curiously, the wrecks share commonalities. Anchor chains laid out in the same rough direction, leading to the sunken ships. Flat. Bottomed. Ships.
That’s a design good for Canals, as you don’t need deep water, but utterly unsuited for open seas.
I can’t recall if it’s a fringe theory or not, but there’s a suggestion the Mongols were betrayed by their conquered Chinese shipwrights, who sure as heck built the invasion fleet, but went with a crap design.
Whether outright malice, or “do you want it done quickly, or correctly”, who knows? Still one of my favourite historical facts/theories.
Also where the Divine Wind thing entered Japanese folklore (apparently). Couple of early skirmishes on land saw the `Mongols driven back to their ships to reconsider approach. That night, massive storm, entire flat bottomed fleet capsized.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Essentially, the remains of the Mongol fleet has been found. Curiously, the wrecks share commonalities. Anchor chains laid out in the same rough direction, leading to the sunken ships. Flat. Bottomed. Ships.
...
I can’t recall if it’s a fringe theory or not, but there’s a suggestion the Mongols were betrayed by their conquered Chinese shipwrights, who sure as heck built the invasion fleet, but went with a crap design.
The book I'm reading is A Brief History of the Samurai (the 'brief' deserves emphasis, it is a tightly packed book), and the author Jonathan Clements, mentions this.
The theory he describes is that the Mongols were in a rush and basically brow beat Chinese and Korean troops into using whatever was available. This meant they ended up using a large number of river boats from the Yangtze. He doesn't mention any conspiracies but I could see that being an idea someone has. The book is a 'brief' history. He admits upfront he doesn't have time to cover everything and most historical events have multiple competing ideas for why things happened the way they did..
Also where the Divine Wind thing entered Japanese folklore (apparently). Couple of early skirmishes on land saw the `Mongols driven back to their ships to reconsider approach. That night, massive storm, entire flat bottomed fleet capsized.
The version covered in the book above is that this was a bit of after-war romanticism. There were some storms and they did help the Japanese repel the Mongols. Fear of a return dominated Japan's international affairs for decades after though, and the government actually ordered people to pray for deliverance. This ever present fear and paranoia morphed overtime into an exaggerated narrative of the gods saving Japan, helped by some of the Samurai who led the battles against the Mongols falling out of political favor in the following years so no one really wanted to credit them with turning back the invasion.
A cultural belief that would have a profound effect on world history centuries later; the Japanese of WW2 firmly believed that the mainland could not be conquered and would fight tooth and nail to defend it. A proper invasion would have caused immense loss of life, not to mention resources and time. The US resorted to another option.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Essentially, the remains of the Mongol fleet has been found. Curiously, the wrecks share commonalities. Anchor chains laid out in the same rough direction, leading to the sunken ships. Flat. Bottomed. Ships.
...
I can’t recall if it’s a fringe theory or not, but there’s a suggestion the Mongols were betrayed by their conquered Chinese shipwrights, who sure as heck built the invasion fleet, but went with a crap design.
The book I'm reading is A Brief History of the Summary (the 'brief' deserves emphasis, it is a tightly packed book), and the author Jonathan Clements, mentions this.
The theory he describes is that the Mongols were in a rush and basically brow beat Chinese and Korean troops into using whatever was available. This meant they ended up using a large number of river boats from the Yangtze. He doesn't mention any conspiracies but I could see that being an idea someone has. The book is a 'brief' history. He admits upfront he doesn't have time to cover everything and most historical events have multiple competing ideas for why things happened the way they did..
Also where the Divine Wind thing entered Japanese folklore (apparently). Couple of early skirmishes on land saw the `Mongols driven back to their ships to reconsider approach. That night, massive storm, entire flat bottomed fleet capsized.
The version covered in the book above is that this was a bit of after-war romanticism. There were some storms and they did help the Japanese repel the Mongols. Fear of a return dominated Japan's international affairs for decades after though, and the government actually ordered people to pray for deliverance. This ever present fear and paranoia morphed overtime into an exaggerated narrative of the gods saving Japan, helped by some of the Samurai who led the battles against the Mongols falling out of political favor in the following years so no one really wanted to credit them with turning back the invasion.
A most triumphant post!
Whilst my memory is clearly imperfect, at least I can be reasonably sure I didn’t hallucinate the documentary! Granted it’s not a conspiracy theory, but it’s a bloody interesting bit of history.
To be fair, there’s a fair amount of folk who can’t handle a summary? Spesh, in the context of this thread (but not the posters therein) when it’s a summary of their own stupid arguments.
Mr. Burning wrote: All this talk of the Samurai has reminded me that there is a fanatic base in Japan who do not believe massacres such as Nanking ever happened.
It kind of feeds of the whole Japan was not the aggressor idea which is also a thing.
Has anyone seen this recent resurgence in the pedophile-elite conspiracy theories? One of my friends on FB started posting all these memes about the “elite” trying to normalize pedaphilia. This person seems fired up enough to shoot up a pizza parlor if someone were to point her at it.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Has anyone seen this recent resurgence in the pedophile-elite conspiracy theories? One of my friends on FB started posting all these memes about the “elite” trying to normalize pedaphilia. This person seems fired up enough to shoot up a pizza parlor if someone were to point her at it.
Go and browse r/Conspiracy on reddit. It is pretty much the only stuff posted there anymore from what I have seen
It seems like a very dangerous way to view the world, and one that threatens to spill over into sectarian violence as soon as some cynical jerk starts tying “elite” to real groups like the Jews, the LGBT community, Catholics or some other minority.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It seems like a very dangerous way to view the world, and one that threatens to spill over into sectarian violence as soon as some cynical jerk starts tying “elite” to real groups like the Jews, the LGBT community, Catholics or some other minority.
Surely nobody would try to link the Cult of Rome with that sort of thing...
The Event does seemed to have ramped up the levels of wackadoodle, of course the shambles of 9th is part of the distraction agenda
We discussed it a few pages back, not specifically about the global elite and pizza gate etc etc, but in regards to allegations made against the british government and the aftermath of operation yewtree and its associated operations looking into westminster etc.
I personally think there is truth to a fair amount of it, no smoke without a fire etc, and if Ghislaine Maxwell makes it to trial or not will be very interesting. I genuinely will be amazed if she is put on trial and all possible charges are brought to bear against her including all the evidence... I mean, they can't really go and repeat what they did with Epstein after all the press it has accrued. Trump has flat out chosen to deny/ignore she has been arrested on these charges in the media for example, saying he 'wishes her well' when asked about her, there's lots of weirdness going on with it all.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It seems like a very dangerous way to view the world, and one that threatens to spill over into sectarian violence as soon as some cynical jerk starts tying “elite” to real groups like the Jews, the LGBT community, Catholics or some other minority.
Oh, they do. A lot of them full on believe that there are satanic paedophilic sex cults in the world, that Hollywood is involved with, along with jews, the illuminati etc.
Mr. Burning wrote: All this talk of the Samurai has reminded me that there is a fanatic base in Japan who do not believe massacres such as Nanking ever happened.
Dunno about conspiracies but, when I was in undergrad, I took a course called "Revolutionary China" (the area and timeframe should be somewhat obvious. . . but if it isn't, we're looking at predominately 20th century, rise of Mao and beyond history) and this event was a topic of discussion one evening. Our professor drug out some translated official documents from both the Chinese and Japanese governments. . . Basically, working in Japan's "favor" (if we can call it such) is that when China is asking for reparations for Nanking, Japan replies, "if we killed so many people, where are the bodies?"
Which, lets be honest, that is the perfect response for generating Conspiracy Theorist discussion, because while it is true that hardly any, if any bodies were ever recovered, the Chinese argument that they were so totally destroyed by Japanese action, that there's really no way for either side to generate the physical "proof" that Japan was demanding.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: Has anyone seen this recent resurgence in the pedophile-elite conspiracy theories? One of my friends on FB started posting all these memes about the “elite” trying to normalize pedaphilia. This person seems fired up enough to shoot up a pizza parlor if someone were to point her at it.
I made a post at the top of the page about the very subject. . . specifically as it relates to some of the ridiculous content I've been exposed to by erstwhile well meaning family relations.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Has anyone seen this recent resurgence in the pedophile-elite conspiracy theories? One of my friends on FB started posting all these memes about the “elite” trying to normalize pedaphilia. This person seems fired up enough to shoot up a pizza parlor if someone were to point her at it.
Go and browse r/Conspiracy on reddit. It is pretty much the only stuff posted there anymore from what I have seen
Reddit killed r/The_Donald and r/QAnon, as well as all their affiliated subs a month-ish back? They all went onto r/Conservative for a bit. Then r/Conservative started banning them because they didn't want to get banned for the same reasons (mostly 'inciting violence'), and now it seems they've all consolidated on r/Conspiracy or they've simply left reddit altogether.
So in georgia greene won the preelections for the republicans?
Oh boi.... Q-anon for president.....
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: It seems like a very dangerous way to view the world, and one that threatens to spill over into sectarian violence as soon as some cynical jerk starts tying “elite” to real groups like the Jews, the LGBT community, Catholics or some other minority.
partially the distrust to the media or government, is often self created issue. but that was allready stated some pages back.
stuff like that then reinforces these groups and weakens any position of authority or integrity to a slow demise, with all the "nice" consequences that has.
Something a bit close to home, and something I have just mentioned in another thread, it maybe a conspiracy, it may be a genuine problem in the game, it may be just a reflection of society currently...
Is there a far right problem within the player base of 40k?
Vice did an article about 'the culture wars' reaching 40k. I think there personally does happen to be a far right problem in 40k, I hope it's a minority, but it is a vocal and loud one none the less. Some of you may know one prominent YouTuber who recently has conducted an email campaign against GW, who also happens to be banned from discussion on most of reddit.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Something a bit close to home, and something I have just mentioned in another thread, it maybe a conspiracy, it may be a genuine problem in the game, it may be just a reflection of society currently...
Is there a far right problem within the player base of 40k?
Vice did an article about 'the culture wars' reaching 40k. I think there personally does happen to be a far right problem in 40k, I hope it's a minority, but it is a vocal and loud one none the less. Some of you may know one prominent YouTuber who recently has conducted an email campaign against GW, who also happens to be banned from discussion on most of reddit.
3 points.
- Culture wars are mostly really an english speaking phenomenom. Not saying that similar things not exist, but they do indeed have other conotations in france, germany, italy or switzerland or austria due to other specifics and generally involve other groups and parties.
- Half of that sphere atm is going bonkers because elections...
- "Everything is a problem because of a subsection of people in a group" is a tried and true (clickbait )media trope for any media which has low standards and want's to sell outrage. regardless if that was 100+ years ago print media or online media nowadays.
It's like with video gamers beeing made responsible for violence etc. It's a convenient somewhat isolated group compared to the mainstream, so an easy scapegoat and target. And video games have started entering the mainstream, so the next group will be TG. 40k with it's founding as satire and mirror for our societies in their most totalitarian form turned up to 11 makes a nice niche. However the satire theme slowly got lost in favour of grimdark only.
Has that later point maybee a draw from certain circles , potentially? but personally i doubt it that it would be a particular strong draw or if, ony for very specific isolated groups.
I'm aware this is flying close to banned discussion topics but I think it is important...
i can only give , an localised answer and subjective answer.
No, over here not really, you have the normal typically swiss spread of political alignement in the scene rangeing all over but that is normal because, well, swiss. Background also doesn't really matter, regardless, so long you are a nice partner for a match nobody cares.
Personally the main issue imo was, What GW claims it stands for and what GW actually stands for.
See, i was not a fan of the specific post that sparked that specific campaign, because at the time it was an issue, only just reaching the UK and GW is a UK based company, and secondarily it came over as standardised canned response for brownie points, especially in regards that 40k is for everyone. After a pricehike, so the statement really should've been: For everyone , except the poor which often happen to be margialized groups regardless.
Going to concur with Not, I really have little to no idea of the leanings of my fellow local gamers as it just doesnt come up in game, of course if I needed clicks I might say otherwise
Yeah I'm joining the camp of this mostly being bad reporting and not in any way really representative of 40K nor tabletop gaming. One or two bad apples being made out as a huge sub-culture problem within the hobby is just sloppy reporting for attention. You can likely find that same type of body in almost any hobby group if you go looking for it.
From photography to fishers I'm sure there are evil "alt right/left/middle/whatever" groups in all of them.
Just look at which game-related topics get banned on Dakka and why.
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Overread wrote: Yeah I'm joining the camp of this mostly being bad reporting and not in any way really representative of 40K nor tabletop gaming. One or two bad apples being made out as a huge sub-culture problem within the hobby is just sloppy reporting for attention. You can likely find that same type of body in almost any hobby group if you go looking for it.
From photography to fishers I'm sure there are evil "alt right/left/middle/whatever" groups in all of them.
The phrase is “one bad Apple spoils the whole barrel.” For God’s sake, we just banned discussion of the Corona virus.
The hobby apparently has a lying-to-itself problem.
Overread wrote: Yeah I'm joining the camp of this mostly being bad reporting and not in any way really representative of 40K nor tabletop gaming. One or two bad apples being made out as a huge sub-culture problem within the hobby is just sloppy reporting for attention. You can likely find that same type of body in almost any hobby group if you go looking for it.
From photography to fishers I'm sure there are evil "alt right/left/middle/whatever" groups in all of them.
The phrase is “one bad Apple spoils the whole barrel.” For God’s sake, we just banned discussion of the Corona virus.
The hobby apparently has a lying-to-itself problem.
Firstly, you are american that includes a lot of differing values and societal structures and issues. NOT every society revolves arround you or even regards related values that you do. What you percive as a deep societal issue is not even considered. What issues you have are diffrent through history and decisions past of your country and others.
Secondly: Not every country decends into nuttjobery over who leads it and let that polarize it's society to the point not even PLASTIC TOYS, are safe from beeing an outlet for outrage media clickbaiting.
Thirdly: If you assume that means "lying to itself" even though as demonstrated other parts of the community are perfectly healthy then i don't know.
Fourth: With that argument you can justify pretty much every totalitarian action against any group slightly not conformist in every country. You realise that?
Fifth: the coronavirus thread, by the very nature of a RL thread AND beeing closly tied to political reactions to this crisis, that sooner or later in a multinational community site that is dakka some will have vastly differing ideas and that leads to arguments, is only natural. And whilest mods prehaps could've intervened more decisivly earlier and the fellow dakkanauts could've actually started considering some of the deeper points or read the facts for that matter, instead of just starting to attack eachother , that is pretty much common with any form of social media.
I'm late to the discussion, but on Flat Earthers, didn't that start as a joke? I remember going back a long time (maybe 15+ years?) I joined some flat earth forums, it seemed like it was mostly made up of intelligent people having fun rather than a serious philosophy.
I joined the forum when I was starting my engineering degree, and it was mostly just fun to come up with ways of constructing a set of physical rules that supported the argument that the earth was flat. A lot of the people arguing for a round earth weren't that knowledgeable or couldn't form good arguments, so it was kinda funny "wining" an argument in favour of a flat earth simply by having a better understanding of physics
Or maybe I was the only one joking and everyone else was taking it seriously and I just added fuel to the fire of genuine flat earth weirdos, haha.
Overread wrote: Yeah I'm joining the camp of this mostly being bad reporting and not in any way really representative of 40K nor tabletop gaming. One or two bad apples being made out as a huge sub-culture problem within the hobby is just sloppy reporting for attention. You can likely find that same type of body in almost any hobby group if you go looking for it.
From photography to fishers I'm sure there are evil "alt right/left/middle/whatever" groups in all of them.
The phrase is “one bad Apple spoils the whole barrel.” For God’s sake, we just banned discussion of the Corona virus.
The hobby apparently has a lying-to-itself problem.
I disagree.
We’ve seen people get, well, shall we call it outspoken on Dakka. Espousing some truly bizarre political views. That gets shut down, and prior to the blanket ban, quite often dogpiled by other posters, and often ridiculed for it.
Those elements exist, and they’re not going anywhere, but they’re far from a significant part of the community. And I’d wager hold pretty much zero influence. I find it hard to believe that political extremes recruit or ‘convert’ many in the hobby. Rather they get fellow political extremists to tale up the hobby.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I'm late to the discussion, but on Flat Earthers, didn't that start as a joke? I remember going back a long time (maybe 15+ years?) I joined some flat earth forums, it seemed like it was mostly made up of intelligent people having fun rather than a serious philosophy.
I joined the forum when I was starting my engineering degree, and it was mostly just fun to come up with ways of constructing a set of physical rules that supported the argument that the earth was flat. A lot of the people arguing for a round earth weren't that knowledgeable or couldn't form good arguments, so it was kinda funny "wining" an argument in favour of a flat earth simply by having a better understanding of physics
Or maybe I was the only one joking and everyone else was taking it seriously and I just added fuel to the fire of genuine flat earth weirdos, haha.
Flat worlds are indeed a bit of puzzle, I recall when the MTG set Lorwyn came out even with 'cos magic' as a get out figuring a functional flat world was a stretch even before it not having a day/night or seasonal cycle either (which was cos fairies but even so)
Overread wrote: Yeah I'm joining the camp of this mostly being bad reporting and not in any way really representative of 40K nor tabletop gaming. One or two bad apples being made out as a huge sub-culture problem within the hobby is just sloppy reporting for attention. You can likely find that same type of body in almost any hobby group if you go looking for it.
From photography to fishers I'm sure there are evil "alt right/left/middle/whatever" groups in all of them.
The reason it made its way into an article was the whole nonsense in response to GW's "You Will Not Be Missed" statement.
I'm not getting into it beyond saying that yes, there is a problem but it's not super widespread in meatspace. It's online.
Like I said in the original post, I believe it to be a minority, but a loud one.... And well, it doesn't take much for the just as concerning far left to try and whip out their cancel card either... Imagine being labelled as a fascist just for liking 40k...
I do happen to find some of the glorifying and envy of the totalitarianism of the imperium extremely strange and concerning for example... I think may of us are aware of it's satire undertones akin to Mega-City 1 etc.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I do happen to find some of the glorifying and envy of the totalitarianism of the imperium extremely strange and concerning for example... I think may of us are aware of it's satire undertones akin to Mega-City 1 etc.
It's not really about recognizing or even understanding the IP so much as using it as a proxy (and a shield of deniability) for extremist politics.
An example I've seen is the statement "the Empire was right" in discussion of Star Wars, as a stand in for "the genocide of anyone different than me is ok". It serves to camouflage the actual politics and if anyone object there's an easy defense: just whine about "the left" and how objectors are just trying to cancel Star Wars etc etc.
So it's not really about any level of awareness, it's about an almost virus like hijacking of an IP to work towards extremists ends.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Like I said in the original post, I believe it to be a minority, but a loud one.... And well, it doesn't take much for the just as concerning far left to try and whip out their cancel card either... Imagine being labelled as a fascist just for liking 40k...
Had that allready happen because of the bag i used to Transport my armies. Fun Times, as for cancel culture tbh it's synonymus with storm in waterglass, Heck take a Look at Comics.
Those that did Bend the knee to them don't sell anymore, the others still do.
I do happen to find some of the glorifying and envy of the totalitarianism of the imperium extremely strange and concerning for example... I think may of us are aware of it's satire undertones akin to Mega-City 1 etc.
Totalitarianism and the strong benevolent leader with everyone having their designated place in the hierarchy have an understandable effect.
Especially on missfits and downtrodden marginalized groups. Or just people desilusioned by a political System.
Diffrent cultures of course react diffrently to such ideologies but all are susceptible to totalitarianism.
The Penguin guy reminds me of those who disbelieved the existence of a creature that was part bird, part mammal and part marsupial. Ergo something that was so impossible that it could only have been the creation of someone out to tell lies.
Of course today we know that the duckbilled platypus is a real creature. Of course many people often have to see something to make it "real" to them. Simply being told isn't enough, though for most people they don't jump off the deep end going for conspiracies of fake penguins.
Plus if that guy was really serious and middleclass enough to afford a computer to get online, he could organise a holiday for himself to go and see real penguins in their real habitat.
Question for the peanut gallery: does a conspiracy remain conspiracy (in terms of topics discussed in this thread) if it turns out to be "true"??
Take for example, planned obsolescence, and how many people think that there's a "conspiracy" between major corporations to build items that last X amount of time, die and then are made in such a way that it is simply easier/cheaper to replace than repair.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Question for the peanut gallery: does a conspiracy remain conspiracy (in terms of topics discussed in this thread) if it turns out to be "true"??
Take for example, planned obsolescence, and how many people think that there's a "conspiracy" between major corporations to build items that last X amount of time, die and then are made in such a way that it is simply easier/cheaper to replace than repair.
Not really sure that actually qualifies as a conspiracy. Just a business calculation about how long their products last (determined through endurance testing) and where to set the costs for replacement parts vs new models. Each company can do that on an individual basis, and rate their competition on the same metrics (by just going out and buying some, and putting them through the same endurance tests).
More generally though, yes, obviously. At a very basic level conspiracy is just an agreement (of 2 or more people) to commit a crime in the future. That's a provable thing. Even if it isn't actually a crime, its still provable that people worked together, and once the arrangement is unmasked... tadah!
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Question for the peanut gallery: does a conspiracy remain conspiracy (in terms of topics discussed in this thread) if it turns out to be "true"??
Take for example, planned obsolescence, and how many people think that there's a "conspiracy" between major corporations to build items that last X amount of time, die and then are made in such a way that it is simply easier/cheaper to replace than repair.
Not really sure that actually qualifies as a conspiracy. Just a business calculation about how long their products last (determined through endurance testing) and where to set the costs for replacement parts vs new models. Each company can do that on an individual basis, and rate their competition on the same metrics (by just going out and buying some, and putting them through the same endurance tests).
More generally though, yes, obviously. At a very basic level conspiracy is just an agreement (of 2 or more people) to commit a crime in the future. That's a provable thing. Even if it isn't actually a crime, its still provable that people worked together, and once the arrangement is unmasked... tadah!
Yeah i dont think thats a conspiracy per se.
Its just a shrewd business practive where you manipulate your client base into accepting a lower quality product/Disposable product over something that would last much longer. We know apple got busted for installing an update that would essentialy mess with the running speed of older iphones so that people would buy a replacements.
It's not even necessarily nefarious. Why would you manufacture a mother board to have a life longer than say, 8 or so years? The technology in it will be obsolete in 3. Decrepit in 5. As much as we romanticize building things to last, the markets clearly do not value things that last. Just look at how old apartment complexes sell verses new ones, or recently renovated buildings. Not everything needs to last, is valued to last past a certain date, and depending on the market there just isn't value in making something to keep using years after initial production.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Question for the peanut gallery: does a conspiracy remain conspiracy (in terms of topics discussed in this thread) if it turns out to be "true"??
Take for example, planned obsolescence, and how many people think that there's a "conspiracy" between major corporations to build items that last X amount of time, die and then are made in such a way that it is simply easier/cheaper to replace than repair.
I think you need to separate a conspiracy from a conspiracy theory.
It is a fact that there was a conspiracy to bug the Watergate hotel by people working on behalf of the Nixon administration in order to get information on the DNC. People conspired to carry out that action. It is also a fact that when these people were discovered the Nixon administration conspired to cover it up.
A conspiracy theory is the theory that a conspiracy exists. If that theory turns out to be true then it stops being a theory and becomes a fact that the conspiracy exists.
The issue with a lot of conspiracy theories is that they go beyond the simple idea of a conspiracy and theorise on the motives beyond what the evidence actually supports, or even what the most "common sense" reason for the conspiracy would be.
If someone had a conspiracy theory that Nixon bugged the Watergate hotel in order to uncover that the Democrats were secret mole people, then their theory would be wrong, even though they got the part about Nixon bugging the hotel right. However conspiracy theorists will often see that one part of a conspiracy theory is true (Nixon bugged the Watergate hotel) and then extrapolate from that to the entire theory being true (ergo, the democrats are mole people).
LordofHats wrote: It's not even necessarily nefarious. Why would you manufacture a mother board to have a life longer than say, 8 or so years? The technology in it will be obsolete in 3. Decrepit in 5. As much as we romanticize building things to last, the markets clearly do not value things that last. Just look at how old apartment complexes sell verses new ones, or recently renovated buildings. Not everything needs to last, is value to last past a certain date, and depending on the market there just isn't value in making something to keep using use years after initial production.
Ohh, I'm not putting forward the idea because I agree with it, my MBA education shows what you're saying to be true. . . However, even when I was in school, we read an article about how France viewed certain industrial sectors' timetables for planned obsolescence to be "unacceptable" and apparently limited it in some way? (I really don't remember much of the details of the article, other than it focused on washing machines, and forcing companies to make spare/repair parts for longer periods of time)
Things like motherboards and computer electronics make sense to have relatively short lifespans. . . But on the other side of the expectancy issue are automobiles. So, I work at a car dealership that carries GM vehicles. I find it utterly ridiculous at times that I'm seeing model year 2013 cars with completely discontinued parts, and that's just the year where I can start to "regularly" expect it. I've seen a couple 2015 and 16 model vehicles with parts discontinued, and of a type of part where aftermarket companies simply do not exist to create those parts thereby leaving my shop's customers with the sticky situation of having spent 40k on a vehicle that now has parts they cannot get for a repair that could keep that vehicle going, or drop another 40k+ on a "new" vehicle that, well, frankly is just a poorly made as the one they have in the shop. It's not that there's some "conspiracy" here, its just that GM, and I've noticed the other US domestic companies have similar views, focuses solely on getting people to buy the new product, and really don't give 2 flying rats hind-ends about you after you leave the lot.
Objects like automobiles, dishwashing machines, clothes washing machines, microwaves, etc. aren't (IMO) like computers where there will be some new thing that makes them totally obsolete (like motherboards above). . . And the pull from opposing views obviously means that someone is gonna "lose out" when the service life of a given item is being discussed.
LordofHats wrote: As much as we romanticize building things to last, the markets clearly do not value things that last. Just look at how old apartment complexes sell verses new ones, or recently renovated buildings.
Gee whizz do I wish this was true locally.
EDIT: on second reading, I do wonder if I've misunderstood you. I think you're saying that the market doesn't value things built to last so older dwellings are cheaper than new ones? Very much not my experience - where new glasses in the same street as those from 1900 are half their price (with the same number of rooms, albeit usually a bit smaller). Folks love an old building.
Firmly on topic: no, planned obsolescence isn't a conspiracy theory, and I think it's tenuous even to call it a conspiracy. It's pretty open business practice.
It's also a red flag as a business practice for consumers or should be. It's unsustainable for the environment and one of the key aspects in the way of making the world more green, the model needs to switch back to built to last and easy/price effective to repair. Recycling is all well and good but some people/governments do not do it or are lazy with it to the point it just ends up in landfill anyway.
Also, the topic that you do not want to be discussed... Quite interesting, considering I've had a fair few PM's about it now, and the past history of mods defending such talk... This forum really is an absolute cess pit.
Concerning planned obsolescence: in the 1920s, the major lightbulb makers of the world created the Phoebus cartel, which determined how long a lightbulb was supposed to last and actually fined companies if theirs lasted too long. They argued that they chose a relatively short lifetime for reasons of efficiency. It's not like they wanted to eliminate competition and artificially inflate demand. Not at all...
That kind of conspiracy (companies agreeing to share their market instead of competing for it) happens pretty often, actually.
Once companies reach a certain size there isn't really that much more market they can take and competing to fight over the remaining parts with other big firms is very expensive. So the established firms find it easier to simply play with each other rather than upset the balance and enter an "arms race" situation.
That's why one of the ways new firms will break into a market is to upset that balance. Sony did it when they wanted a slice of the camera market. They invested insane money into sensor development and blazed past Canon and Nikon - to the point that Nikon just bought Sony sensors. Sony wasn't part of the established game and they wanted a slice of the pie so they upset the balance.
Several major UK supermarkets also got caught fixing prices for dairy products; lowering the price paid to the supplier and raising the price to the customer. On its one one company couldn't do it; but when several of the big names all agreed to do it they can get away with it. Because those suppliers can't go to anyone else because the price to all the major companies that could take their product was going down; similarly customers weren't able to go anywhere else because the price at all the major supermarkets was going up.
It's not so much a conspiracy as it simply is the practicalities of big business. Sure its not always legal, but they'll risk it and see if they get away with it
LordofHats wrote: It's not even necessarily nefarious. Why would you manufacture a mother board to have a life longer than say, 8 or so years? The technology in it will be obsolete in 3. Decrepit in 5. As much as we romanticize building things to last, the markets clearly do not value things that last. Just look at how old apartment complexes sell verses new ones, or recently renovated buildings. Not everything needs to last, is valued to last past a certain date, and depending on the market there just isn't value in making something to keep using years after initial production.
It depends entirely where you live and materials used. A solidely made build made from proper masonery, brick.work.and materials will last centuries. We have edwardian houses all over here. Some crappy thing made off wood and plaster is going to devalue quickly.
Motherboards and electrics I can get understand the technology with these things is ever rapidly advancing.
But for example cars(even very expensive cars) get packed full of parts these days that will need to be replaced after 70000 miles. Things were always brraking but it was very common to see a car with 240000 miles on the clpck back in the day now cars barely make 120k before they are scrapped.
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Overread wrote: Once companies reach a certain size there isn't really that much more market they can take and competing to fight over the remaining parts with other big firms is very expensive. So the established firms find it easier to simply play with each other rather than upset the balance and enter an "arms race" situation.
That's why one of the ways new firms will break into a market is to upset that balance. Sony did it when they wanted a slice of the camera market. They invested insane money into sensor development and blazed past Canon and Nikon - to the point that Nikon just bought Sony sensors. Sony wasn't part of the established game and they wanted a slice of the pie so they upset the balance.
Several major UK supermarkets also got caught fixing prices for dairy products; lowering the price paid to the supplier and raising the price to the customer. On its one one company couldn't do it; but when several of the big names all agreed to do it they can get away with it. Because those suppliers can't go to anyone else because the price to all the major companies that could take their product was going down; similarly customers weren't able to go anywhere else because the price at all the major supermarkets was going up.
It's not so much a conspiracy as it simply is the practicalities of big business. Sure its not always legal, but they'll risk it and see if they get away with it
I was looking into loans recently when i was buying a new car. Very pecular that every single bank/ institution advertised a rate of 3.9% based on 51% of applicants yet when you go through the application steps not a single one stays at 3.9 and all of them.shoot up to 9.9%. Some dont tell you right until the very end and you read the final documents. That certainly seems like collusion to me.
The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) wanted greater clarity for consumers about the costs of overdraft borrowing. So they said it had to be expressed as an APR %.
Suddenly, major high street banks all declare something like 49.9% APR.
FCA aren’t especially happy, and are asking the banks how they came to that figure.
Unfortunately conspiracies (and in businesses that's called collusion) it does happen.
But saying that LED light bulbs are now advertised at 25 000 hours when they were advertised at 75 000 hours when they were introduced is different to saying vaccines cause complacent dumb workforces.
On the flat earth topic, the videos I watch debunking it tend to feature people with a religious take on it.
So whilst it’s probably best not to share the video directly, jump on YouTube and have a search for SciManDan, and Baldycatz/Conspiracy Catz.
SciManDan is pretty laid back, preferring to be factual. Catz is also factual, but does more mickey taking. But, neither criticises the religions, just the person making wild and wacky claims.
Through them you’ll also find others. I like `Creakyblinder.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On the flat earth topic, the videos I watch debunking it tend to feature people with a religious take on it.
So whilst it’s probably best not to share the video directly, jump on YouTube and have a search for SciManDan, and Baldycatz/Conspiracy Catz.
SciManDan is pretty laid back, preferring to be factual. Catz is also factual, but does more mickey taking. But, neither criticises the religions, just the person making wild and wacky claims.
Through them you’ll also find others. I like `Creakyblinder.
SciManDan is one of my favourite Youtubers. I especially love his comment videos. "ScamManGay is GAAAAAAY!" "Yeah? What if I was? I'm still correct."
Baldy/Conspiracy is also a firm favourite. I do tend to enjoy the better spoken producers like them, Professor Stick, Genetically Modified Sceptic, Paulogia, Viced Rhino and the like, (although Paulogia and VR are more into the religion thing.) For the equally eloquent yet crasser, Godless Engineer, Shannon Q, FTFE, Logicked and some others.
Most of them do dabble in conspiracy theory explanations.
All these current Pedo Ring conspiracies remind me of the good old Satanic Panic of the 80s that impacted D&D of course, but had much more serious actual consequences in Daycares.....
Easy E wrote: All these current Pedo Ring conspiracies remind me of the good old Satanic Panic of the 80s that impacted D&D of course, but had much more serious actual consequences in Daycares.....
TBF though the whole pedo conspiracies seem also impacted again by some huge cases.
Like the one in Germany right now, which was so brutal that the media had to be left out...
79 crimes and the leading investigator states that it is only the suface they scratched on.
It’s the same old issue though of those crimes previously being hushed up at all levels of society.
Now the cat is out of the bag, victims are more likely to come forward, and cases more likely to be pursued, leading to greater prosecution.
At first glance of course, that can look like an increase in the actual crimes. But it’s not. It’s just society finally discovering just how deep that particular rot went.
And hey, for tugging on the heartstrings and grabbing attention, I don’t think there’s anyone in their right mind who’d say protecting kids from further debacles is a bad thing.
There’s also probably a lot of collective guilt too. How many folk are looking back with that perfect, non-rose tinted 20/20 hindsight, and realising they themselves had missed obvious signs, or turned a blind eye, however unwittingly.
Another slice of the pie here is of course the growth of the internet, from something barely heard of at the end of the 90’s, to the all encompassing thing we have today.
There was a decent chunk of time where parents just weren’t savvy to the risks involved. That allowed things to spread even further.
Now, people are, on the whole, more clued up online, so hopefully in the coming years we’ll see online child safety just keep on improving.
Will that crime ever go away? No, no it won’t. But detection rates, and greater confidence for victims to come forward will help combat it.
And don’t forget. There are people who’s preference is in that direction. The UK has quite a few self identified, on the register, and seeking help, that have never acted on their impulse. The majority of offenders however are doing it for the power trip, rather than preference.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s the same old issue though of those crimes previously being hushed up at all levels of society.
Now the cat is out of the bag, victims are more likely to come forward, and cases more likely to be pursued, leading to greater prosecution.
At first glance of course, that can look like an increase in the actual crimes. But it’s not. It’s just society finally discovering just how deep that particular rot went.
And hey, for tugging on the heartstrings and grabbing attention, I don’t think there’s anyone in their right mind who’d say protecting kids from further debacles is a bad thing.
By all means, but you can't protect everyone 24/7, and imo, tendencies to swing the pendulum are pretty darn chronic in most societies...
However, especially the case in germany with the corresponding hiking in expenses for security , especially the police did show that chronic underfunding is an issue.
One i rekon is also here the case.
There’s also probably a lot of collective guilt too. How many folk are looking back with that perfect, non-rose tinted 20/20 hindsight, and realising they themselves had missed obvious signs, or turned a blind eye, however unwittingly.
Standards for parenting have changed massively, from beeing AOK and even accepted teaching method to beat children to outlawed in the span of comparatively a miniscule ammount of time compared to human existence.
Another slice of the pie here is of course the growth of the internet, from something barely heard of at the end of the 90’s, to the all encompassing thing we have today.
There was a decent chunk of time where parents just weren’t savvy to the risks involved. That allowed things to spread even further.
Now, people are, on the whole, more clued up online, so hopefully in the coming years we’ll see online child safety just keep on improving.
Will that crime ever go away? No, no it won’t. But detection rates, and greater confidence for victims to come forward will help combat it.
And don’t forget. There are people who’s preference is in that direction. The UK has quite a few self identified, on the register, and seeking help, that have never acted on their impulse. The majority of offenders however are doing it for the power trip, rather than preference.
the argument of the power trip imo, is a bit too reductive to the solely psychological sphere. Which is also incidentally imo why it often stalls out in regards to correctional capabilities for preciscly this type of ciminal because we humans are not just Rational brainpuppets that have a solid grip 24/7 on us, but rather are also influenced by our own chemistry.
Socialisation merely is the selfcontroll teaching according to the majority, of our urges to the benefit of society as a whole. And which in most cases allows for selfcontroll beeing achieved, but not those that have vastly more issues in regards to their bodily chemistry OR psychological issues.
My local movie theatre is playing "Spaceballs" right now.
Due to Covid-19, they let people pay to sponsor movies that they then show on the Big Screen. It is an awesome idea to help keep the theater going. Many of them have just closed up temporarily because no one is going to see movies right now.
Now, onto Conspiracy Theories..... anyone recall the old Mel Gibson movie on the topic. How quaint that film seems now....
The one where the really smart aliens wot are killed to deff by mere water invaded Earth of places? AKA the first Shyalaman film where the twist was the audience had been tricked by The Sixth Sense, and Shyalaman was just another hack who got lucky once?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The one where the really smart aliens wot are killed to deff by mere water invaded Earth of places? AKA the first Shyalaman film where the twist was the audience had been tricked by The Sixth Sense, and Shyalaman was just another hack who got lucky once?
I like the fan theory that the aliens were demons and the little girl was making holy water. It's funny.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The one where the really smart aliens wot are killed to deff by mere water invaded Earth of places? AKA the first Shyalaman film where the twist was the audience had been tricked by The Sixth Sense, and Shyalaman was just another hack who got lucky once?
Eh, Shyamalan got lucky twice. Sixth Sense and Unbreakable are both great movies.
You guys saw that the FBI just tweeted out the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the OG Jewish Conspiracy manifesto? It was apparently in response to a freedom of information act request, but the way it was just tweeted out without context or warning is frankly terrifying.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: You guys saw that the FBI just tweeted out the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the OG Jewish Conspiracy manifesto? It was apparently in response to a freedom of information act request, but the way it was just tweeted out without context or warning is frankly terrifying.
I'd openly question why the hell a publicly available book needs to be released via FOIA. What's the story here?
I’m sure there’s a reasonably legitimate reason to request it. I’m also sure that would just be a pretext, and the real reason has everything to do with timing and the appearance of legitimacy this gives the document.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Question for the peanut gallery: does a conspiracy remain conspiracy (in terms of topics discussed in this thread) if it turns out to be "true"??
There was news story from years ago this reminds me of. There's a saying that you're not paranoid if the government actually IS watching you. It's been a while since I read about this, so bear with me. A guy with antigovernment opinions lived alone in his small home that was somewhat isolated behind woods. He was a bit of a crackpot, and spouted off online about government conspiracies and coverups. Reading about his activities at the time this guy was definitely in the tinfoil hat territory, but as far as I can tell he wasn't really hurting anyone. It was enough grab the attention of local law enforcement who raided his home. He put up no resistance and surrendered, but instantly invoked his right to remain silent. They still had him in custody in his home when they carried his computer out the front door and he started laughing. Apparently this guy thought ahead and had installed large electro magnets into his doorframe strong enough to wipe his hard drive if anyone tried carrying it through. The police tried to charge him with destruction of evidence for not informing them of this, but it was thrown out as he was under no obligation to tell them anything, especially when he invoked his right to remain silent. In the end I don't think he faced any real charges.
Split was also pretty good, and I loved watching The Village. The thing with Shyalaman was that after 6th sense everyone expected a twist at the end of every movie. It was like his version of an MCU after credits scene. The fact that people expected it was what ruined it. I have a feeling that if he had released some of his movies under pseudonym that they'd have been better received.
With the US about to enter full election mode, I propose a break from discussing the Conspiracy Theories related to it. Much as Qanon et al are interesting topics, I feel now isn’t the time if we want to keep the thread open. Especially given seems the potential Vice President has already been lined up for more than a few.
It’s not that I don’t trust you guys to keep a level head, so much as I don’t want to attract provocative, veiled comments etc.
It’s not that I don’t trust you guys to keep a level head, so much as I don’t want to attract provocative, veiled comments etc.
Would the subject of cryptozoology be an acceptable diversion for CT discussion?? (For those who may not be familiar with the term, its the umbrella subject covering things like Loch Ness monster, Bigfoot, Yeti and similar creatures)
People often dismiss Cryptozoology as total crackpotery. In many cases it is, but it hasn't totally struck out. In the last 200 years there have been several "mythical" creatures that have turned out to be factual. Gorillas, Giant Panda, Platypus. Heck, it wasn't until this year that they discovered a new species of Orca living far off the coast of Argentina.
I'm obviously not a believer in the multiheaded Hydra or anything like that. I'm skeptical of bigfoot, but I wouldn't be surprised if at some point it's discovered that they were a rare primate species that was near extinction for the 500 years.
I think one of my favorites is the "Rock Apes" of Vietnam. Probably because it mixes military history and Cryptozoology, and what person on a forum like this won't be drawn to that!
Related, I also have a dim memory in Medieval History about a race of dog-headed men. They were supposedly ruthless in battle, but the name and details escapes me. Anyone?
All Forteana is of interest to me, except when it gets really loopy.
A good Fortean investigation isn’t about trying to prove X, so much as ruling out all other possible explanations. And that done, keeping an open mind on X.
Here we see scientists analysing purported Yeti remains, hairs and that. They didn’t come from the ‘let’s prove it’s a Yeti’, or ‘let’s prove it’s not a Yeti’. Just ‘OK, let’s see what each sample is’
And you can pick up interesting factoids from the Fortean world. For example, the stories of ‘UFO Abductees’ closely match stories from centuries past of Fairy abductions.
Now, without ruling out any particular reasons (no matter how daft), it does suggest these people have some kind of shared experience. I think there’s on going psychological and psychiatric research into it. Again, not trying to prove or disprove, just to provide as scientific an explanation as possible. Yes, I too doubt it will be Aliens or Fairies!
This reminds me of a humorous bit on Alien News Desk or whatever that show on comedy central was about the two alien news reporters reporting wildly inaccurate stories about Earth to an alien audience. They had a bit that was all about how humans seemed to value idiocy, to the point that we measured it with 'IQ' and seemed proud that our 'IQ' was rising, with examples of various really stupid gak people have said or done.
It’s not that I don’t trust you guys to keep a level head, so much as I don’t want to attract provocative, veiled comments etc.
Would the subject of cryptozoology be an acceptable diversion for CT discussion?? (For those who may not be familiar with the term, its the umbrella subject covering things like Loch Ness monster, Bigfoot, Yeti and similar creatures)
I seem to remember Josh Gates or whatever his name is from Destination: Truth finding some samples that were tested and the DNA didn't match anything on file. Not saying it's cryptids, but part and parcel with eliminating everything else first.
I've never really watched it but I got the feeling Oak Island was sort of half way between Pawn Stars and Storage Wars. The former being scripted real world events where the stuff is brought to them and legitimately sold and bought, the script is more the presentation of the transaction; with the latter being a totally artificial creation (the amount of rare/high value items in those lockers is beyond reasonable real world expectation - so either there are a LOT of lockers that are discounted or there's a bit of seeding of locker contents for the camera).
Oak island is pure fiction really, there are some interesting aspects to it though, most covered in the first few seasons, but I don't believe there is a treasure hidden there.
In terms of the interesting things, there are a range of seemingly man built underground water channels leading to the main mining shaft.
There has been extensive mining of the area including some weird things have been found during previous attempts.
And there does seem to be some man made reference points placed on the island, such as stones in unusually uniformed patterns when looking from a birds eye view.
I haven't watched it for years to be honest, I'd like them to wrap it up sooner than later now though, and it to be conclusive... I do actually want to know what is buried/built below the ground, mainly because I find it interesting some people went to such lengths before and why they did that.
Another load of crap but fairly entertaining along the same wavelength was a show called Search for the Lost Giants. I think it got cancelled after one series but it was entertaining/weird enough to have my attention.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though, both of those shows aren't a conspiracy to me, it's more urban legends. I suppose you could argue they are the same thing, however I don't think they are, and by definition of the words they are not.
And you can pick up interesting factoids from the Fortean world. For example, the stories of ‘UFO Abductees’ closely match stories from centuries past of Fairy abductions.
Now, without ruling out any particular reasons (no matter how daft), it does suggest these people have some kind of shared experience. I think there’s on going psychological and psychiatric research into it. Again, not trying to prove or disprove, just to provide as scientific an explanation as possible. Yes, I too doubt it will be Aliens or Fairies!
Still a fascinating study.
Pretty sure there are previous studies on this, and the likely conclusion is sleep paralysis, and sometimes the semi-conscious mind fills in (hallucinates) the details with latest cultural bogeyman, be it aliens, faeries or succubi.
Sleep paralysis is so weird. There's one instance of mine where I still entertain the question whether what was happening was actually real it wasn't, just the experience is so vivid and I can still remember feeling actual pain and what that felt like, it's easy to understand how some people can confuse it, there's another instance where it took me the best part of a few hours to understand what I thought happened did not really happened. The exhaustion and other physical effects of it screw with your ability to validate the experiences... So weird.
Cryptozoology often has some basis in fact- animals are absolutely weird. Imagine the first time two dogs mated, and a pug popped out. Or the first guy to see a liger.
The mystery monkey of Tampa Bay, which spent three glorious years spreading cheer in our fair city, swimming in pools, stealing food, and demonstrating an immunity to tranquilizer darts. Oh and, because this is a Florida story, exposing everyone he came into contact with wtih herpes. Think about what legend that would have spawned even 60 years ago, when no one would believe you'd seen a monkey in your pool.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Sleep paralysis is so weird. There's one instance of mine where I still entertain the question whether what was happening was actually real it wasn't, just the experience is so vivid and I can still remember feeling actual pain and what that felt like, it's easy to understand how some people can confuse it, there's another instance where it took me the best part of a few hours to understand what I thought happened did not really happened. The exhaustion and other physical effects of it screw with your ability to validate the experiences... So weird.
And this is without adding in other elements such as :
1) Drink/drugs - ergo mind altering substances. Even if the person isn't using at the time of the event, prior use might well have caused damage or established trains of thought that influence their ability to interpret what happens.
2) Sleep deprivation/poor diet or other more minor health issues.
3) Tumours or other more serious health issues that have an adverse effect on the mind/body.
There's also apparently a whole subset of common dreams/influences that people can suffer from. Eg there are three dreams that people have - one is the dream where your teeth fall out; the other is that sense of a "dark person" standing over you - the latter sometimes coming with sleep paralysis; then there's the one where you are falling down (stairs, cliff, whatever). That last one often comes right before waking up and normally the falling becomes the panic trigger.
Let us not forget that human society can (and does) induce mental illness even in people who were not born with anything out of the ordinary. (I don't mean this as a knock on society; just an acknowledgement that what the human brain is adapted for =/= what it experiences in anything outside a hunter-gatherer state.)
NinthMusketeer wrote: Let us not forget that human society can (and does) induce mental illness even in people who were not born with anything out of the ordinary. (I don't mean this as a knock on society; just an acknowledgement that what the human brain is adapted for =/= what it experiences in anything outside a hunter-gatherer state.)
that's what you get , when you evolve over ten thousands of years, only to urbanize in what 4000 years?.
Otoh, one could argue that it is evolution of mind and social structure itself. Which is immensly deterministic in a way. And personally a bit contrary to what we know how f.e. science and ideas behave , especially abstract theories and what counts as knowledge...
I think it's fair to say we are sort of going through our second 'enlightenment' in modern times in regards to changes that have been influenced by science, sociology, law, digitisation of life, government, the 'woke' era.... It's inevitable that such change comes with growing pains... I think humans are creatures of habit, who mostly envy a simplified life, not the case that everyone wants their own bit of land to hunt/gather but some stability in terms of knowing their direction and the path to take to get there, with minimised risk. That lack of security is having an impact on a persons mental health imo, it would be super interesting to be able to go back and look at the era's that spanned the first enlightenment and to gauge the impact that had on peoples mental health.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Let us not forget that human society can (and does) induce mental illness even in people who were not born with anything out of the ordinary. (I don't mean this as a knock on society; just an acknowledgement that what the human brain is adapted for =/= what it experiences in anything outside a hunter-gatherer state.)
that's what you get , when you evolve over ten thousands of years, only to urbanize in what 4000 years?.
Otoh, one could argue that it is evolution of mind and social structure itself. Which is immensly deterministic in a way. And personally a bit contrary to what we know how f.e. science and ideas behave , especially abstract theories and what counts as knowledge...
Science and ideas don't have behavior, or any capacity to _have_ behavior. How people behave when coping (or not) with science is an interesting area of study, however.
Abstract theories never count as knowledge. It can be interesting to see what fanfiction people write about the universe when they lack proper scientific tools to study it, but most of the time its just drivel.
There’s also the exponential development of tech we’ve seen in my lifetime.
Born in 1980, finished school in 1997. Whilst we had computers, we didn’t have the internet at school. Probably the last age group to be able to say that in the western world.
I’ve also grown up with vaccines being normal, keyhole surgery, and all sorts of frankly miraculous medical procedures.
With COVID? For the first time, we’re seeing Science actually Science in the wild. People don’t seem to realise Science is codified trial, error and analysis. Good Science should’ve been rigorous in trying to disprove its own claim.
And that’s pretty scary, really. I mean, I know my job inside out, but in terms of how the PC and software and that which allow me to do my job in the way I do? Not a clue. Never had to learn it, because we’ve an IT Department paid to worry about that and get it right.
Expand that, and I basically know bugger all about bugger all. Yet the world, more or less, works.
This has also come in an age where folk are, perhaps understandably, interested in easy answers to incredibly complex issues. There is a specific example or three I could give, and I’m sure you can guess what I’m thinking of. But let’s not explore how that can be exploited.
This is what Conspiracy Theorists prey upon. For example, the Flat Earth.
Except...they are of course cherry picking, and presenting the false dichotomy that “if X is wrong then that means I am right”.
Most of the debunking videos on the channels I’ve mentioned, especially Baldy Catz, really lean into that, explaining where the Flerfer has got it wrong, and why. And it’s worth noting there is no unified model for a Flat Earth which explains what we see in terms of star movement, seasons, day and night cycle etc etc.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Question for the peanut gallery: does a conspiracy remain conspiracy (in terms of topics discussed in this thread) if it turns out to be "true"??
There was news story from years ago this reminds me of. There's a saying that you're not paranoid if the government actually IS watching you. It's been a while since I read about this, so bear with me. A guy with antigovernment opinions lived alone in his small home that was somewhat isolated behind woods. He was a bit of a crackpot, and spouted off online about government conspiracies and coverups. Reading about his activities at the time this guy was definitely in the tinfoil hat territory, but as far as I can tell he wasn't really hurting anyone. It was enough grab the attention of local law enforcement who raided his home. He put up no resistance and surrendered, but instantly invoked his right to remain silent. They still had him in custody in his home when they carried his computer out the front door and he started laughing. Apparently this guy thought ahead and had installed large electro magnets into his doorframe strong enough to wipe his hard drive if anyone tried carrying it through. The police tried to charge him with destruction of evidence for not informing them of this, but it was thrown out as he was under no obligation to tell them anything, especially when he invoked his right to remain silent. In the end I don't think he faced any real charges.
Along these lines there's the case of Francis Rawls.
I na nutshell, rawls was a policeman in Philly who was accused of having kidporn on his pc in an encrypted file and refused to decrypt his files as it would essentially be providing testimony against himself. He was held in contempt (Contempt being a magical word of power that eliminates people's rights to due process and protections against unjust incarceration)
His argument was the decryption key was information in his head and the state could not force hmi to give it to them as it would be used against him. The state cannot force a person to give information against himself. The state used a lot of hair splitting and legalese to get around this.
The legal limit on this sort of contempt was 18 months but the courts cited a law passed before the constitution was written called the 'all writs act' that allowed for basically infinite imprisonment for refusing to comply with a court order. Ironically the state argued essentially it didn't really need the files he had encrypted as due to 'hashes' it was a 'forgone conclusion" that he had kidporn on his computer and decrypting would just verify what the state already knew.
Rawls refused and wad kept in prison for nearly 5 years before a court ruled that the limit the state could hold his was 18 months, which had passed over 3 years ago.
He was released in february and so far the state has not moved ahead on the kidporn charges despite claiming they had evidence he had it. Also the state has not tried the 'lather, rinse, repeat' tactic of as soon as someone is maxed out on a contempt charge immediately filing a brand new one and starting a new 18 month contempt cycle, which they can start over and over again. Like was done to chelsea manning.(So much for limited time on contempt charges...)
Some people were claim that the state was conspiring to establish a precedent allowing them to permanently imprison people for refusing to decrypt files. One guy even suggested police would just carry usb drives and plant them in people's cars with encrypted files on them, demand they decrypt them which they can't do, then imprison them forever without trial or appeal. Hey, no more messy planting drugs to frame people.
Given the fact that the state claimed they already had proof rawls had downloaded kid porn due to hashes ( A claim some computer security experts refute) and given the state did not pursue any case against rawls as soon as he was released it looks like the conspiracy nuts can't be discounted easily here. It indicates the state may not have a solid case against him.
The government is trying to quietly ban possession of effective encryption software, BTW. Glad I got my copy of safehouse explorer years ago.
I actually do believe the conspiracy crowd may be at least somewhat right here. Francis rawls seems tailormade as a case for legalizing coerced decryption, and the case involves kidporn, the mere accusation of which immediately shuts down a lot of people's reason, logic, common sense and restraint. So yes, maybe there was a conspiracy here to legalize endless imprisonment without trial, appeal, etc.
Please note, I derive absolutely zero amusement from this. Rather, I feel genuine compassion for someone so utterly duped by woo peddling morons that they paid for it with their life, and the mess such leaves behind for their loved ones.
Wear your mask. Keep yourself clean. Sanitise as necessary. Do your best to observe social distancing.
Experts know stuff we don’t. That’s why they’re experts, and we’re mere plebs.
Take it seriously, be safe, live long, and prosper.
