Do cursed earths stack? ie can you give your tzeentch daemons 2++ rerollables?
Do chaos psychers get chaos focus and psychic focus? (Like a ML3 tzeentch herald gets 3 rolls on daemonolgy, daemonolgy primaris and tzeentch primaris?

I am asking as an opposing player to a daemon factory, not as TFG who wants to take one

1) Cursed Earth is a Blessing, check the BRB for what it says about Blessings stacking.

2) If all powers are generated from the same discipline then you get Psychic Focus. Chaos Psychic focus you can get as well since you never generate the Primaris power of the discipline in which you have a Mark of Chaos. A Psyker can have both (As far as the RAW goes, this was probably not intended).

3) Why would people taking a daemon factory be a TFG, they are not all that powerful, and take a long time to get ramped up.

No

It's one or the other, a marked Chaos Sorcerer will know his gods primaris for free and then roll or his powers / A unmarked Chaos Sorcerer can get the Psychic focus.

Hollismason wrote:
No

It's one or the other, a marked Chaos Sorcerer will know his gods primaris for free and then roll or his powers / A unmarked Chaos Sorcerer can get the Psychic focus.

Do you have any rules quotes to back up that statement?

Psychic focus says you lose it if you know any other powers during the course of the game, they auto know their god powers as such as can never get psychic focus and chaos focus.

@Mark: Can you give the page number or the exact quote on that?

MarkyMark wrote:
Psychic focus says you lose it if you know any other powers during the course of the game, they auto know their god powers as such as can never get psychic focus and chaos focus.

No... They get chaos focus and lose psychic focus. It says so right in the psychic phase section specifically.

 Ignatius wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Psychic focus says you lose it if you know any other powers during the course of the game, they auto know their god powers as such as can never get psychic focus and chaos focus.

No... They get chaos focus and lose psychic focus. It says so right in the psychic phase section specifically.

MarkyMark is right, nowhere in the BRB does it say you can't have Psychic Focus as a marked sorcerer, it just says you lose your Psychic Focus if you get a power from a different discipline.

Slight difference, but a difference none-the-less.

MarkyMark wrote:
Psychic focus says you lose it if you know any other powers during the course of the game, they auto know their god powers as such as can never get psychic focus and chaos focus.

Except you do not gain any powers from any other disciplines during the course of the game, you gain the Chaos Psychic Focus before the game starts.

It was probably intended that you can not have both Chaos Psychic Focus, and Psychic Focus, though. they just didn't really word the rules correctly (No big surprise there). I play it that they do not get both, but the rules seem to say they can get both due to the wording on Psychic Focus that states "If during the course of the game" when clearly Chaos Psychic Focus does not happen during the game, it happens before.

Am I missing something here? Marked sorcerers cannot have psychic focus because they must take one of their powers from their respective gods tables. Therefore, because they generated a power from a table other than, say pyromancy, they cannot know the primaris from pyromancy because they didn't generate all their powers from it.

So they can never have psychic focus. Instead, they get chaos psychic focus, where they know the primaris to their gods table- a way to make them not lose out on a good rule.

Where does it say they get both?

 Ignatius wrote:
Am I missing something here? Marked sorcerers cannot have psychic focus because they must take one of their powers from their respective gods tables. Therefore, because they generated a power from a table other than, say pyromancy, they cannot know the primaris from pyromancy because they didn't generate all their powers from it.

So they can never have psychic focus. Instead, they get chaos psychic focus, where they know the primaris to their gods table- a way to make them not lose out on a good rule.

Where does it say they get both?

Yes, you are missing the fact that Chaos Psychic Focus is something that all marked psykers get. It is not something that they take. They never generate the power that is the primaris of their god's mark.

As long as a Psyker generates all psychic powers from the same psychic discipline they get psychic focus.

The Chaos Psychic Focus is not something that is generated, it is something they automatically know if they have a mark.

"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section).

Psykers generate powers randomly by rolling dice.

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline..." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Hmmm I think I had a simple mis reading of the focus rules. I see what you're saying and I have to agree with you after looking at it.

Interesting. I suppose sorcerers just got a little better.

 Ignatius wrote:
Hmmm I think I had a simple mis reading of the focus rules. I see what you're saying and I have to agree with you after looking at it.

Interesting. I suppose sorcerers just got a little better.

As I said though, it does not look like it was intended, and I do not play that way, but YMMV.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Am I missing something here? Marked sorcerers cannot have psychic focus because they must take one of their powers from their respective gods tables. Therefore, because they generated a power from a table other than, say pyromancy, they cannot know the primaris from pyromancy because they didn't generate all their powers from it.

So they can never have psychic focus. Instead, they get chaos psychic focus, where they know the primaris to their gods table- a way to make them not lose out on a good rule.

Where does it say they get both?

Yes, you are missing the fact that Chaos Psychic Focus is something that all marked psykers get. It is not something that they take. They never generate the power that is the primaris of their god's mark.

As long as a Psyker generates all psychic powers from the same psychic discipline they get psychic focus.

The Chaos Psychic Focus is not something that is generated, it is something they automatically know if they have a mark.

"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section).

Psykers generate powers randomly by rolling dice.

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline..." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

However, sorcerers have to to roll minimum one time on the discipline of their patron god, and by doing that, you cant get psychic focus in any other discipline. The word is they must "roll" for god specific powers, so the chaos focus primaris dont count.
The rule of chaos focus was obviously made becaus there is no way for a marked sorscerer to get focus otherwise.

Edit: anyway, the question was about daemons, and they can apparently get psychic focus and a chaos focus primaris as a bonus, the way I read it.

Whether or not they get both is almost irrelevant as they have the same practical outcome.

Scenario #1 - Knowing both Psychic Focus AND Chaos Psychic Focus.

I choose to generate all powers from Malefic Daemonology. Psychic Focus kicks in and I get the Malefic Primaris. Then Choas Psychic Focus kicks in, I lose the Malefic Primaris and gain the Primaris of my marked God.

Scenario #2 - Knowing only Chaos Psychic Focus.

I choose to generate all powers from Malefic Daemonology. Chaos Psychic Focus kicks in and I gain the Primaris of my marked God.

...

Same outcome.

And anyone saying that gaining the power via Chaos Psychic Focus isn't part of the game should remember that powers are only selected when you're playing a game. We should use the standard dictionary definition. The rule doesn't say that we lose the Primaris should we gain another power during any player turn. It says game and that encompasses selecting your army and setting up things like powers.

 Kriswall wrote:
Whether or not they get both is almost irrelevant as they have the same practical outcome.

Scenario #1 - Knowing both Psychic Focus AND Chaos Psychic Focus.

I choose to generate all powers from Malefic Daemonology. Psychic Focus kicks in and I get the Malefic Primaris. Then Choas Psychic Focus kicks in, I lose the Malefic Primaris and gain the Primaris of my marked God.

Scenario #2 - Knowing only Chaos Psychic Focus.

I choose to generate all powers from Malefic Daemonology. Chaos Psychic Focus kicks in and I gain the Primaris of my marked God.

...

Same outcome.

And anyone saying that gaining the power via Chaos Psychic Focus isn't part of the game should remember that powers are only selected when you're playing a game. We should use the standard dictionary definition. The rule doesn't say that we lose the Primaris should we gain another power during any player turn. It says game and that encompasses selecting your army and setting up things like powers.

Still, the rulebook say you generate powers "before the game begin" (p 23), and psychic focus is lost if you gain a power "during the course of the game". Just saying. If you generate all powers from one discipline you get psychic focus. Chaos focus is "in addition to any other powers it knows". Notice its not in addition to any other powers generated, and therefor clearly include the non-generated psychic focus primaris it knows.

You don't get Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus at the same time, Jesus Christ what the hell.

If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline’s primaris power in addition to his other powers.If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).

Chaos Psychic Focus

If a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos Daemons), that model automatically knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity, in addition to any other powers it knows.

- Edited by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1-

Generation of a power with Chaos Focus is generating a power whether it's free or not, you've still auto-generated a Psychic Power that's not the same discipline you picked.

Hollismason wrote:
Generation of a power with Chaos Focus is generating a power whether it's free or not, you've still auto-generated a Psychic Power that's not the same discipline you picked.

No that is not generating a power. Generating powers had a specific procedure that you follow in the BRB. You never follow this procedure with the Primaris power of a Discipline that corresponds to a Psykers Mark of Chaos.

You never generate the power tied to your patron god if the model has a mark of said god because you generate powers by this process:

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline..." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

This is how you generate powers. You never do this for a marked Psyker with the Primaris power corresponding to this mark.

Ergo, you can have Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus at the same time if you only generate powers from one discipline.

You are correct Reaper, but you do relise it is a mere oversight on GW's behalf?. I personnaly wouldnt play this way as its pretty clear this will be FAQ'ed to remove both chaos focus and psychic focus. I cannot see the point in playing it that way with a good chance it will be removed?.

Why it is so clear is Force is discounted from looking at Psychic focus to see if you know any other powers, even though that is automatically generated as well.

MarkyMark wrote:
You are correct Reaper, but you do relise [sic] it is a mere oversight on GW's behalf?. I personnaly [sic] wouldnt [sic] play this way as its pretty clear this will be FAQ'ed to remove both chaos focus and psychic focus. I cannot see the point in playing it that way with a good chance it will be removed?.

Why it is so clear is Force is discounted from looking at Psychic focus to see if you know any other powers, even though that is automatically generated as well.

I have stated that I think it is probably an oversight. You can never tell though with GW writers.

As for force, maybe they forgot to put that line in Chaos Focus, but it is probably just an oversight.

I have stated that I do not play it that way, not that I play daemons or CSM's, but if my opponent wanted to play that way, I would not make a big deal about it.

The RAW is that a Psyker can have Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus at the same time. (Though likely not intended).

The OP has his answer, so we can move along yes?

Quick Question from a non-Psyker User:
What happened to the Rule which stated a Chaos Psyker has to generate at least half their powers on the God-o-choice's table?

JinxDragon wrote:
Quick Question from a non-Psyker User:
What happened to the Rule which stated a Chaos Psyker has to generate at least half their powers on the God-o-choice's table?

When you say Chaos, do you mean Daemons or Marines?

For Chaos a Space Marines, it's at least 1 power, and up to half (not at least half).

I was thinking on Marines, and couldn't remember if it was up to or at least so thanks for that as well.
Secondary question now Daemons are on the mind: Are they governed by a similar Rule?

I recommend everyone email GW with the questions (as I did) about Chaos Psychic Focus (and Psychic Focus) and how it interacts with Marks of Chaos etc.

Here is their FAQ email address: Gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Also if you want to call them from North America (although they refuse to answer rules questions over the phone) here is all the numbers you need to dial: 011 44 115 91 40000

Generating a power is not only randomly generating powers. It includes all ways in which you acquire powers, including those set by the codex entry and Psychic Focus. Thus if you have a power via Chaos Focus that is not the same discipline, you can't claim Psychic Focus.

All of the rules governing this process are under the heading "Generating Psychic Powers". The section then starts with "Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins." It then describes the process by which specific powers are acquired. Thus, it is one way in which powers are generated. It continues on from there. Regardless of the way in which the power has been acquired, it has been "generated" by the Psyker.

Angelic wrote:
Generating a power is not only randomly generating powers.

Yes it is, as per the rules I posted earlier.

It includes all ways in which you acquire powers, including those set by the codex entry and Psychic Focus.

Not true, as per the rules I posted earlier.

Thus if you have a power via Chaos Focus that is not the same discipline, you can't claim Psychic Focus.

False premise leads to false conclusions like this one.

All of the rules governing this process are under the heading "Generating Psychic Powers". The section then starts with "Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins." It then describes the process by which specific powers are acquired. Thus, it is one way in which powers are generated. It continues on from there. Regardless of the way in which the power has been acquired, it has been "generated" by the Psyker.

Generating a psyshic power is a specific process defined in the BRB as:

"a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."
"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline" (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Psykers generate powers randomly, out of a chosen discipline.

Something that is never done with Psychic Focus, or Chaos Psychic Focus.

I think it all boils down to the definition of Generating Psychic Powers, and in my personal opinion there is a difference between Generating and Randomly Generating.

The paragraph headed "Generating Psychic Powers" differentiates between generating and randomly generating. It specifically mentions some Psykers having powers listed in their army list entries, and that Psykers start the game with those powers -- which seems to indicate that determining which powers a Psyker has is in and of itself generating them, as it is described in the section for Generating Psychic Powers.

It then goes on to describe how to randomly generate psychic powers. Not simply "generate", but generate randomly from a chosen Discipline.

In other words, Generating Psychic Powers is the act of determining which powers a Psyker will have at the start of the game. Some powers will be generated automatically, such as Force, army list entry powers and Chaos Psychic Focus powers. Other powers are selected by choosing a Discipline and rolling on the power table specific to that discipline, aka randomly generating a power.

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 "

"If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated. Note that second and subsequent psychic powers do not have to be generated from the same psychic discipline as the Psyker’s first power" (Both quotes from The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

"if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers."

This is how you generate powers...

 AlTzeentch wrote:
I recommend everyone email GW with the questions (as I did) about Chaos Psychic Focus (and Psychic Focus) and how it interacts with Marks of Chaos etc.

That won't actually achieve anything any more 'official' than the answer you would get here. The customer service person you speak to or receive an email from doesn't have any special training in the rules... they're just mail order people who get the fun job of answering rules questions on the side. They're just going from their own understanding of the rules like the rest of us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Ergo, you can have Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus at the same time if you only generate powers from one discipline.

I might be missing something in my caffeine-deficient state, but what difference does it make? They both just result in your psyker getting the primaris power, don't they?

doesnt matter if they choose it or whatever,

if they somehow, by any means, gain a power in another tree, even the primaris, they lose P focus, and that is overtly stated in the rules on the same page that tells you about both focuses.

RAW and RAI do not allow you to have both focuses at once....

unless you are generating all your powers from the same tree your marks gives you the free primaris for, which in effect, is pointless.

as soon as you claim the primarice for CHAOS focus, you have powers in multiple trees, losing the P focus rule. simple as that, spelt out clear as day, but of course, that wont stop people from reading it wrong.

 easysauce wrote:
doesnt matter if they choose it or whatever,

if they somehow, by any means, gain a power [during the game] in another tree, even the primaris, they lose P focus, and that is overtly stated in the rules on the same page that tells you about both focuses.

(Emphasis mine)

Fixed that for you

RAW and RAI do not allow you to have both focuses at once....

RAW does. reread the thread, it is clearly explained as to why this can happen fully supported by the RAW.

unless you are generating all your powers from the same tree your marks gives you the free primaris for, which in effect, is pointless.

as soon as you claim the primarice[sic] for CHAOS focus, you have powers in multiple trees, losing the P focus rule. simple as that, spelt out clear as day, but of course, that wont stop people from reading it wrong.

This is incorrect. Powers is multiple tree's is not what makes you lose Psychic Focus.

Generating powers from Multiple Disciplines does as well as gaining a Power from a different Discipline during the game. None of this happens with Chaos Psychic Focus.

.. is the argument that having a power from the chaos discipline doesn't count, because of slightly ambiguous wording?

Nope. Sorry that's nonsense.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Generating powers from Multiple Disciplines does as well as gaining a Power from a different Discipline during the game. None of this happens with Chaos Psychic Focus.

you then have powers from two trees during the game though.

that meets the restrictions criteria.

you also have to generate from the same tree to gain p focus, since you are not generating all on one tree, again, you do not get it.

you are reading it wrong, simple as that.

just because chaos focuse doesnt randomly generate its power, does not mean it is not generating it... all powers are generated by some form or another, mid game, pre game, whatever. the restriction on "all powers from one tree or no P focus" still applies by RAW

Captyn_Bob wrote:
.. is the argument that having a power from the chaos discipline doesn't count, because of slightly ambiguous wording?

Nope. Sorry that's nonsense.

It is not ambiguous, you never generate the power associated with the patron god you have a mark of, if you are a daemon.

Generating powers have a specific process, and you do not follow this process with Chaos Psychic focus.

Rules quotes have been posted to back this up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
you then have powers from two trees during the game though.

Sure, you have powers from two trees, but you never gain a psychic power from a different psychic discipline during the course of the game, so you do not lose Psychic Focus.

"If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus" (Psychic focus rules)

that meets the restrictions criteria.

as explained above, it does not.

you also have to generate from the same tree to gain p focus, since you are not generating all on one tree, again, you do not get it.

Except they are generating all of their powers from the same discipline. generating powers is a specific process you follow, which includes choosing a discipline and rolling a D6, something that never happens with CPF.

you are reading it wrong, simple as that.

Except I am not, and I have actual rules that back up my statements!

just because chaos focuse doesnt randomly generate its power, does not mean it is not generating it... all powers are generated by some form or another, mid game, pre game, whatever. the restriction on "all powers from one tree or no P focus" still applies by RAW

actually that is exactly what it means, as Generating powers is a specifically defined process in the BRB, something that CPF does not follow and as such you never generate the primaris for CPF or the Primaris for plain old Psychic Focus.

Saying it is not ambiguous, with this many people disagreeing, is laughable.

I appreciate your RAW interpretation. However you appear to assume that 'generate' has only one meaning, when in fact it is quite a common word, which can be applied to multiple things. Many English speakers could easily interpret gaining the chaos psychic focus as 'generating' it.

I will concede that it could use an FAQ to clarify, but I will not be playing that a model could gain both versions of psychic focus, as it is both clearly against the intent of the rules, and the most common sense interpretation of the wording.

so deathreaper, you use the power generating rules, which is where chaos focus is located, to get a power, in a 2nd tree,

use that power, from that 2nd tree, DURING the game,

and claim not only are you not generating that power, but you dont have it during the game?

yeah, thats your reading issue, you are welcome to your interpretation, but its not RAW, and the rules you are quoting dont back it up as you think they do. They confirm that you are incorrect in actual fact.

Generate has only one meaning in the 40K ruleset, because the 40K ruleset defines generating Psychic Powers.

If it did not define Generate then we would fall back on the common English definition.

Therefore the "most common sense interpretation of the wording" has no bearing on the rules discussion.

 easysauce wrote:
so you use the power generating rules, which is where chaos focus is located, to get a power, in a 2nd tree,

Incorrect, you never generate the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus.

You generate powers as per the rules quotes above, which involve rolling a D6 etc...

use that power, from that 2nd tree, DURING the game,

and claim not only are you not generating that power, but you dont have it during the game?

yeah, thats your reading issue, you are welcome to your interpretation, but its not RAW, and the rules you are quoting dont back it up as you think they do. They confirm that you are incorrect in actual fact.

You have not generated that power, because generating powers is clearly definied in the BRB.

I never said you don't have the power. but you have not used the rules for generating powers to get that power and as such the part about "If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus" does not apply.

please quote the page that shows you how to "generate" any power without actually generating it.

that is in fact, the only way you get powers. even the assigned powers are a form of generating, you have no rules backing to back up that only random d6 rolls are "generating" powers.

the rules you use for chaos focus are conveinently with all the other generating powers rules, even force is a generated power, with instructions on when to generate it.

generating powers is clearly defined, and it clearly includes focus powers

 insaniak wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:
I recommend everyone email GW with the questions (as I did) about Chaos Psychic Focus (and Psychic Focus) and how it interacts with Marks of Chaos etc.

That won't actually achieve anything any more 'official' than the answer you would get here. The customer service person you speak to or receive an email from doesn't have any special training in the rules... they're just mail order people who get the fun job of answering rules questions on the side. They're just going from their own understanding of the rules like the rest of us.

I was thinking more along the lines of: "If enough people e-mail them with a similar question, I think there is a possibility it will make it into the next FAQ, even if it is a small possibility"

 easysauce wrote:
please quote the page that shows you how to "generate" any power without actually generating it.

You don't, you generate powers as per the process in the BRB.

that is in fact, the only way you get powers. even the assigned powers are a form of generating,

Not true at all, as generating powers is a specific process in the BRB.

you have no rules backing to back up that only random d6 rolls are "generating" powers.

I do, and I posted them before, I will recant to point them out.

"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section).

"the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated, as described below."(The psychic Phase section, Number of Psychic Powers sub-section)

Psykers generate powers randomly by rolling dice as per the rule below:

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline..." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

So either a Psyker has one or more powers listed, or he "generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6..." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

This is the defined process on how to generate Psychic powers. Chaos Psychic Focus and Psychic Focus are not generated powers, because to generate a power you follow the above process.

the rules you use for chaos focus are conveinently[ sic] with all the other generating powers rules, even force is a generated power, with instructions on when to generate it.

generating powers is clearly defined, and it clearly includes focus powers

generating powers is clearly defined, however you do not use that process to gain Chaos Psychic Focus or Psychic Focus, you get to invoke the Chaos Psychic Focus or Psychic Focus rules depending on how you generated your powers.

yes death, again, you are not reading the rules properly...
or you willfully choose to interpret things wrongly by taking one word out of one sentence as the be all end all instead of taking all the rules on the pages into account.


page 23, top right, in BOLD...

"If a psyker has chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain psychic focus"

RAW doesnt only use the word "generate" and the rules for assigning powers are directly under the "generating powers" header, so you endlessly repeating one word of the rules to the exclusion of the other wording, as well as the context of the paragraphs of rules that are pertinent. This is why you are not following RAW.

the example also specifically talks about non daemon non mark of chaos for P focus as well

you are also ignoring pg 22 where it states gaining powers mid game that are not in the same tree makes you lose focus.

generating psychic powers header on pg 23 very much talks about psychic focus as being a part of it, you are ignoring the multiple references to it.

page 23, top right, in BOLD...

"If a psyker has chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain psychic focus"

Does a Psyker with a mark ever choose the primaris of his god's discipline? No? then the psyker has indeed "chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline" ergo he gains Psychic Focus.

I am reading it properly.

I am not ignoring Page 22. It states that If during the course of the game, a Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline.

Gaining the Primaris does not happen during the course of the game, it happens before the game starts so this does not apply either.

Any other rules based arguments, because all of your points are not valid as per the RAW I just posted.

If not then a Psyker can have Chaos Psychic Focus and Psychic Focus as I have shown with rules quotes to back up my argument.

DR is correct IMO.

As to the Chaos space marines, the Codex tells us we HAVE to roll ONE power on the respective gods table, you auto getting the primaris is not rolling for a power so you will end up with at least one generated power from their respective god and the primaris and which other powers you decided to roll for.

DR is ignoring the entire opening paragraph of "Generating Psychic Powers". Furthermore, the assertion that "Generate" has been defined as "randomly generate" is patently false. If generation was always and only "randomly", it would not be stated. It is an adverb, thus it modifies the base definition. Ergo, the base is not "randomly". Psychic focus also doesn't use "Generate" but "generate".

Yup.

Also of im rolling dice, the game has started, I dont care if the first turn hasn't.

Here, read page 70 of the csm dex. It states marked sorcs must generate, specifically by rolling on the table, at least once and up half the powers known.

This means we must roll on the table to generate at least once and due to cpf we get its primaris for free as we as the roll.

The wording in the brb is reflective of chaos' unique situation of mandatory rolling one table.

Sort of, but daemons dont have the same restriction. They still can't get two psychic focuses tho.

Marked and deamon of. Both are listed on page 70. Unless you're talking about chaos deamons as an army which last i checked had a similar wording to csm.

Yeah chaos daemons dont have the same restrictions

It doesn't say that a daemon of X must generate at least one power from its patron god?

 Bausk wrote:
It doesn't say that a daemon of X must generate at least one power from its patron god?

No .

Angelic wrote:
DR is ignoring the entire opening paragraph of "Generating Psychic Powers". Furthermore, the assertion that "Generate" has been defined as "randomly generate" is patently false. If generation was always and only "randomly", it would not be stated. It is an adverb, thus it modifies the base definition. Ergo, the base is not "randomly". Psychic focus also doesn't use "Generate" but "generate".

No I am not ignoring anything.

There are specific rules on how to generate Psychic powers.

There are two options.

1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed. Or

2) The Psyker will generate random Psychic powers form the disciplines available to him.

Those are the only two ways to generate psychic powers.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 2nd graph).

and random generation works like this "To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6" (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 3rd graph).

and if they need to generate more than one. "If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."(The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 4th graph).

So generation is rolling randomly or having the powers listed as per the actual RAW.

Got any rules quotes that say otherwise?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Yup.

Also of im rolling dice, the game has started, I dont care if the first turn hasn't.

You may not care if the first turn has not started. The rules do though, (And that is really what matters) and they specifically contradict your assertation that the game has started when you generate Psychic powers.

"Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins. " (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 1st graph, 1st sentence).

So the game has not started when Psykers generate their powers, as per the actual rules.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Sort of, but daemons dont have the same restriction. They still can't get two psychic focuses tho.

They can get Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus as per the RAW that I posted earlier in this very post.

I concede on the game definition (although I believe the authors intent was to make a sweeping statement to catch out weird rules contradictions)

I'm fairly confident that the intent is for psychic focus and chaos psychic focus to be exclusive. The point of contention is whether 'generate' is a specific term or a general one, in that when you take a chaos psychic focus you generate a power, even though you don't roll a d6 for it.

Alas the section on generating psychic powers is quite specific, and there is no statement to clarify that the psychic focuses are unique (perhaps the author assumed daemons and csms had the same restrictions).
I'm going to concede RAW (or rules as deliberately misinterpreted....). I won't be playing it that way, and will request it for the FAQ.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I'm fairly confident that the intent is for psychic focus and chaos psychic focus to be exclusive.

I agree, but that is not how they actually wrote the rules.

Unfortunate really.

P.S. I have not deliberately misinterpreted any rules.

Except for the example that spells out how to generate psychic powers and that specific powers that are named are still generated

Generating Psychic Powers

Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins.

This statement does not imply that psychic powers that are specified are not generated in fact it states the opposite it states you have to generate them randomly

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.
To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker.

I don't think this means what you "think" it means. This statement isn't that all powers that are generated randomly are the only powers that are generated, that specifically means that they are only generated randomly. This is instructions on randomly generating psychic powers we already have the rules on how they are generated when not random.




Again you have to choose to gain psychic focus

Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers.

This example clearly indicates that it is considered knowing a power, or a specify power is still "generated"

For example, Sarah has a Psyker in her army with a Mastery Level of 3 who knows powers from the Telepathy and Divination disciplines. The Psyker has no Mark of Chaos, nor is it a Daemon of a Chaos God. The Army List Entry does not specify that the Psyker knows any specific powers, so Sarah chooses the Telepathy discipline and rolls a D6. The result is a 3, thus generating Terrify. Sarah then chooses the Telepathy discipline again, rolling another 3. This is re-rolled, the result being a 1 this time, generating Dominate. However, Sarah chooses to swap Dominate for the Telepathy primaris power, Psychic Shriek. For her Psyker’s final randomly generated power, Sarah chooses to generate a power from the Divination discipline. She rolls a 6, thus generating the psychic power Scrier’s Gaze. As Sarah decided to generate psychic powers from more than one psychic discipline, she does not benefit from the Psychic Focus rule. Finally, Sarah’s Psyker is equipped with a force weapon, so her Psyker also knows Force.

This clearly lays out a example where the person does not in fact have a Chaos Primaris and would be able to get psychic focus, we know then that the opposite through deduction and reason would change this statement.

This is a semantic argument over whether psychic powers are generated when in fact the heading, the usage of the word and otherwise the rules themselves state that the only difference is that one power is generated randomly and one power is generated automatically. This is literally a semantic argument. We know through grammar that in fact those are instructions on how to generate psychic powers randomly not that the only powers that are generated are those that are generated randomly as both rules are under the heading GENERATING PSYCHIC POWERS

You can play word games or whatever but the fact is even if a power is specifically given it is still in fact generated, one is generated randomly , one is generated automatically.

We don't need further instructions on word usage as we know under the heading of Generating Psychic powers that specified powers are still in fact generated. We don't need to say generate specific psychic powers. As it's in the articles or subsections title itself. Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus are both ways to generate psychic powers which is why they are in the Generation of psychic Powers section. It even lays it out there for you in the example.

Except that Generate psychic powers has a specific meaning, and Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus do not fall into that definition.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except that Generate psychic powers has a specific meaning, and Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus do not fall into that definition.

It has the definition you've given it ,which a little bit reminds me of when my nephews were really little I'd point out stuff and tell them the wrongs name of it until they got it the youngest still refers to trees as fish, all of that is under the category of Generating a Psychic Powers which you continue to ignore.

Hollismason wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except that Generate psychic powers has a specific meaning, and Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus do not fall into that definition.

It has the definition you've given it

Actually the rules did that, I even provided the quotes...

,which a little bit reminds me of when my nephews were really little I'd point out stuff and tell them the wrongs name of it until they got it the youngest still refers to trees as fish, all of that is under the category of Generating a Psychic Powers which you continue to ignore.

I am ignoring nothing.

Chaos Psychic Focus is not under Generating Psychic Powers...

It most certainly is. I am literally looking at my book well ebook, the next section is Manifesting Psychic Powers.

Hollismason wrote:
It most certainly is. I am literally looking at my book well ebook, the next section is Manifesting Psychic Powers.

No it is not, Psychic Focus/Chaos Psychic Focus has its own box.

All under the heading of Generating Psychic Powers in the psychic powers section. Literally looking at it, then it moves on to a new section.

Is it in the Section that states Manifesting powers? Nope it's under Generation of Powers. It is a way to generate powers.

The box with Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus is just after the section Number of Psychic Powers, and just before Generating Psychic Powers in my E-book.


Not that it matters, because there is a process for generating Psychic powers and Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus do not follow this process.

Is it a Psychic Power you receive? Do you use a method to get it? The yes, it was generated.

Hollismason wrote:
Is it a Psychic Power you receive? Do you use a method to get it? The yes, it was generated.

No it was not generated because the BRB defines how you generate powers, and there are two ways to do so. You get it as a bonus but it is never generated because power generation is a specific definition in the BRB.

There are specific rules on how to generate Psychic powers.

There are two options.

1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed. Or

2) The Psyker will generate random Psychic powers form the disciplines available to him.

Those are the only two ways to generate psychic powers.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 2nd graph).

and random generation works like this "To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6" (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 3rd graph).

and if they need to generate more than one. "If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."(The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 4th graph).

So generation is rolling randomly or having the powers listed as per the actual RAW.

Got any rules quotes that say otherwise?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Is it a Psychic Power you receive? Do you use a method to get it? The yes, it was generated.

No it was not generated because the BRB defines how you generate powers, and there are two ways to do so. You get it as a bonus but it is never generated because power generation is a specific definition in the BRB.

There are specific rules on how to generate Psychic powers.

There are two options.

1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed. Or

2) The Psyker will generate random Psychic powers form the disciplines available to him.

Those are the only two ways to generate psychic powers.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 2nd graph).

and random generation works like this "To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6" (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 3rd graph).

and if they need to generate more than one. "If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."(The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 4th graph).

So generation is rolling randomly or having the powers listed as per the actual RAW.

Got any rules quotes that say otherwise?

It is specifically under the heading Generation of Psychic powers.

(Actually it has its own section).

So no actual rules to refute the two ways The rules lay out that tell you how to generate Psychic powers?

Seems this is settled then.

:-) 'settled' is a strong term. There are two valid interpretations , one is clearly the rules as intended by the author. The other has the stronger argument with the lawyer hat on. So how would you play it, the way its intended or the way that benefits daemons? Only a daemon player is going to care. Alas if you take two psychic focuses, I bet every other game you're going to gave to go through this same argument ... is it worth it?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
:-) 'settled' is a strong term. There are two valid interpretations , one is clearly the rules as intended by the author. The other has the stronger argument with the lawyer hat on. So how would you play it, the way its intended or the way that benefits daemons? Only a daemon player is going to care. Alas if you take two psychic focuses, I bet every other game you're going to gave to go through this same argument ... is it worth it?

Well when one side can not refute the rules quotes and conclusions from said rules quotes it seems to be settled. There are not two valid interpretations as the rules clearly explain how to generate powers.

I already said how I would play it.

But I also know what the RAW says, and that is different to how some people will play it.

I already refuted it, there's no point and arguing with someone who refuses to acknowledge the simple fact that before the game if you get a psychic power you have generated it. We've shown that there are in fact multiple ways to generate psychic powers.

Go try it at at Tournament or anywhere else.

It's not "putting a lawyer cap on" it's purposefully being obtuse to the fact that those abilities do in fact generate psychic powers.

We've already explained that generate randomly and generate automatically or generate specifically are all still generating psychic powers. There are multiple ways to "generate" psychic powers, Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus are just two of them.

It's all literally in the section that is entitled Generating Psychic powers, want argue what a indention or statement or formatting of the book go right ahead and do that but it's not smart to because the only section that could be in is Generating Psychic powers , what other section do you think you'd put that in? Sorry that the formatting confuses you.

It's like a weird Simon says Semantic argument, well you didn't say Simon says generate.

Hollismason wrote:
I already refuted it,

Not successfully. There are no rules to back up your statements. I have shown rules that back up mine.

there's no point and arguing with someone who refuses to acknowledge the simple fact that before the game if you get a psychic power you have generated it.

That is not me refusing to acknowledge it, that it me following the actual rules for generation, which do not include Chaos Psychi Focus. CPF is never generated because to generate a power you either have it listed in your powers or you roll on a table available to you. that is it. If you think PF and CPF are generated how about you supply csome actual rules that say so. because I have not found any that say that.

We've shown that there are in fact multiple ways to generate psychic powers.

Not by using the actual rules you have not. in the rules thee are two ways to generate powers. Please cite some rules that allow you to generate powers without using the process laid out in the brb.

Go try it at at Tournament or anywhere else.

The appeal to authority has no bearing in a rules forum discussion.

It's not "putting a lawyer cap on" it's purposefully being obtuse to the fact that those abilities do in fact generate psychic powers.

If they do generate, please try to show some actual rules that say PF and CPF are generated. You still have not shown this.

We've already explained that generate randomly and generate automatically or generate specifically are all still generating psychic powers.

By your claims and no rules backing, sure, but you need rules backing and you have not given it.

There are multiple ways to "generate" psychic powers, Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus are just two of them.

Citation or it didnt happen. I only see two ways to generate in the BRB, does the BRB have a rules quote that says differently? if I missed it please post it, because you have not yet.

It's all literally in the section that is entitled Generating Psychic powers, want argue what a indention or statement or formatting of the book go right ahead and do that but it's not smart to because the only section that could be in is Generating Psychic powers , what other section do you think you'd put that in? Sorry that the formatting confuses you.

It's like a weird Simon says Semantic argument, well you didn't say Simon says generate.

The format does not confuse me, but thank you for the insults, they really enhance your argument...

Regardless what generating means or does..

it happens before the game, so by virtue of that it is never 'gained during the course of the game'.

I already have it's stated multiple times that you generate psychic powers before the game begins; there is one Wargear item that allows you to get them during the game.

It's literally in the first sentence. What's to refute the semantic and boring argument of it doesn't say generate?

We know it doesn't have to because grammatically Generate Randomly is a specific instruction on how to generate randomly not that the only way to generate powers is through random which is the crux of your argument and patently false.

Hollismason wrote:
I already have it's stated multiple times that you generate psychic powers before the game begins; there is one Wargear item that allows you to get them during the game.

It's literally in the first sentence. What's to refute the semantic and boring argument of it doesn't say generate?

We know it doesn't have to because grammatically Generate Randomly is a specific instruction on how to generate randomly not that the only way to generate powers is through random which is the crux of your argument and patently false.

Except the Rules give you two clear options for generating Psychic Powers.

Even the example says that you gain the primaris and not generate the primaris:

"For example, Stu has a Psyker in his army with a Mastery Level of 2. That Psyker knows two psychic powers, which will need to be generated. Stu decides to generate both of his psychic powers from the same discipline and so gains Psychic Focus, and thus that discipline’s primaris power." (Emphasis mine, The Psychic phase section, Number of Psychic Powers sub-section). See how they say he will need to generate two powers, and gains (Not generates) the primaris.

Generating and gaining are two separate things in the 40K rules.

I will restate and ask a question, please try to use rules to back up your statements as I have cited rules that confirm mine:

There are specific rules on how to generate Psychic powers.

There are two options.

1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed. Or

2) The Psyker will generate random Psychic powers form the disciplines available to him.

Those are the only two ways to generate psychic powers.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 2nd graph).

and random generation works like this "To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6" (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 3rd graph).

and if they need to generate more than one. "If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."(The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 4th graph).

So generation is rolling randomly or having the powers listed as per the actual RAW.

Got any rules quotes that say otherwise?

1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed.

Applies to Chaos Focus and people who have marks as there is no way for them to no take it. It is in fact exactly like several other models that always have that Ability.

They always have that power, there for the 1st rule that you in fact quote as generating psychic powers applies to Chaos Focus.

Hollismason wrote:
1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed.

Applies to Chaos Focus and people who have marks as there is no way for them to no take it. It is in fact exactly like several other models that always have that Ability.

They always have that power, there for the 1st rule that you in fact quote as generating psychic powers applies to Chaos Focus.

Really, because I am not seeing the Primaris power listed for my Herald "The Changeling". The primaris is not listed in his entry.

So clearly your assertation is incorrect.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed.

Applies to Chaos Focus and people who have marks as there is no way for them to no take it. It is in fact exactly like several other models that always have that Ability.

They always have that power, there for the 1st rule that you in fact quote as generating psychic powers applies to Chaos Focus.

Really, because I am not seeing the Primaris power listed for my Herald "The Changeling". The primaris is not listed in his entry.

So clearly your assertation is incorrect.

Does your Herald have a mark? Or do you have a copy of the Chaos Daemon codex where your Heralds are not in fact Daemons? Because Chaos focus clearly states that Daemons that are psykers always have the Special rule / Ability chaos focus.

I guess then that with your codex none of your Monstrous Creatures have the smash abilities, move through cover etc.. which are rules give to them by the BRB.

The BRB gives all Psykers with that ability Chaos Focus which is a specific spell that they have because they are Marked Daemons and Psykers.

Hollismason wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed.

Applies to Chaos Focus and people who have marks as there is no way for them to no take it. It is in fact exactly like several other models that always have that Ability.

They always have that power, there for the 1st rule that you in fact quote as generating psychic powers applies to Chaos Focus.

Really, because I am not seeing the Primaris power listed for my Herald "The Changeling". The primaris is not listed in his entry.

So clearly your assertation is incorrect.

Does your Herald have a mark? Or do you have a copy of the Chaos Daemon codex where your Heralds are not in fact Daemons? Because Chaos focus clearly states that Daemons that are psykers always have the Special rule / Ability chaos focus.

Yes. The Changeling has the Daemon of Tzeentch special rule, but the changeling was only one example, how about a Daemon Prince. They can upgrade to Daemon of Tzeentch, but they can also upgrade to Daemon of Khorne instead, so they do not have the rule Daemon of... listed in their entry. Not that it matters, the rule states they will have the power listed, this is not the case for The Changeling, or any Daemon Princes...

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed" Both of the above do not have the Primaris listed so the Primaris is not generated this way...

I guess then that with your codex none of your Monstrous Creatures have the smash abilities, move through cover etc.. which are rules give to them by the BRB.

No, the Bloodthirster's entry gives him Smash because his unit type is Flying Monstrous Creature. So Smash is not given to him by the BRB it is given to him by his codex listing him as a FMC...

The BRB gives all Psykers with that ability Chaos Focus which is a specific spell that they have because they are Marked Daemons and Psykers.

Yes they get CPF, not sure what this has to do with generating Psychic powers though.

That is a rule that they have that makes it so they get a specific power. Is it not?

Or is it something else?

Cause it's pretty clear that if you have a Mark or are a Daemon of.. if a Psyker.

Then you get Chaos Focus special rule which gives you a specific power

But please argue some more about how that's not a special rule that applies to Daemons and gives them a specific spell.

Hollismason wrote:
That is a rule that they have that makes it so they get a specific power. Is it not?

Or is it something else?

Cause it's pretty clear that if you have a Mark or are a Daemon of.. if a Psyker.

Then you get Chaos Focus special rule which gives you a specific power

But please argue some more about how that's not a special rule that applies to Daemons and gives them a specific spell.

What is required is "In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed"

There are not any specific psychic powers listed in The Changeling or the Daemon Princes entries, so that is not how they generate the Primaris.

Having a power does not matter, Generating a power or gaining a power during the course of the game does.

Neither of which applies to Chaos Psychic Focus.

Which is Generated by Chaos Psychic Focus.

DR, when does the game start?
When does a model benefit from Psychic Focus/Chaos Psychic Focus?

 Happyjew wrote:
DR, when does the game start?
When does a model benefit from Psychic Focus/Chaos Psychic Focus?

The game starts sometime after the Seize the initiative roll, which is well after terrain is set up and after deployment, but I do not see what this has to do with the Generation of Psychic Powers.

A model benefits from Chaos Psychic Focus whenever "a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God"

For Psychic Focus, it benefits a model "if a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline"

But again what does this have to do with generating powers?

Hollismason wrote:
Which is Generated by Chaos Psychic Focus.

Incorrect. Chaos Psychic Focus never states that it is generated.

It gives you the two options on how Psykers generate their Psychic Powers. Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus are not listed in the list of two ways to Generate Psychic Powers.

Then what section in the book are they listed in and in what reference point do we have to take them.

If they are not generated how do they get there?

Does anyone who does not have a named power in their profile then not generate powers.

How is it not a special ability or rule that gives it a specific power.

Why do you think that it has to list in the army entry which it does by having a mark of chaos or a daemon, get the Chaos Focus ability which is a ability that gives a specific psychic power.

This whole argument is a semantic one, and silly because you seem to believe that the only powers that are "generated" are by two methods when clearly there are multiple methods on generating psychic powers.

It's listed literally in the section before Manifesting Powers, at this point it's irrelevant you are going to believe what you want to believe and say what you want to say, your obviously wrong and anyone who plays against you is going to tell you you are. No one agrees with you.

All arguments over rules are semantic ones...

That is the great thing about the RAW, it is what it is even if you disagree with it.

Fact remains there are two specific ways to generate powers as per the RAW:

There are two options.

1) The Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed. Or

2) The Psyker will generate random Psychic powers form the disciplines available to him.

Those are the only two ways to generate psychic powers.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 2nd graph).

and random generation works like this "To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6" (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 3rd graph).

and if they need to generate more than one. "If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."(The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 4th graph).

So generation is rolling randomly or having the powers listed as per the actual RAW.

You keep saying it like it is true but it's just not, I mean keep repeating it until for like ever it still doesn't make it a fact, and no not all arguments are over semantics, that's not even the correct usage of that word. I mean you're not even quoting the rules your just literally rewriting them as you see fit, that's not even what it says. You've just been paraphrasing.

I've already explained why it is in fact a generation of a spell. It's pretty clear that it is a special abilitly that allows the generation of a specific spell. I'm sorry you don't understand grammatical context. It's like you are interpreting the rules as if some sort of a weird 1950s robot, like you know the old ones where they're like " Instruct the computer to take out the trash" " Oh no the robot not seeing the period has destroyed the planet, quick confuse him with a ampersand".

It's just weird.

The basic rule book gives us meaning and defintion of what words mean in context of the rules as well as the units available to us. They modify the entries in the Army Rulebooks. That's why they don't have to write the rules in every book because they know we know to use the BRB as a reference. Daemons and Psykers who have Marks have a Special Ability called Chaos Focus now. They automatically generate a specific spell. That spell is that of their patron god. This disallows Psychic Focus.

I did quote the rules.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section, 2nd graph).

Is a direct quote complete with citation...

Hollismason wrote:
The basic rule book gives us meaning and defintion of what words mean in context of the rules as well as the units available to us. They modify the entries in the Army Rulebooks. That's why they don't have to write the rules in every book because they know we know to use the BRB as a reference. Daemons and Psykers who have Marks have a Special Ability called Chaos Focus now. They automatically generate a specific spell. That spell is that of their patron god. This disallows Psychic Focus.

(Emphasis mine)
The underlined is 100% incorrect.

They never generate the Primaris of their god, they automatically know the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity, but that is not the same as generating a power, as to generate a power:

How to generate a power, Option 1:
"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers."

How to generate a power, Option 2:
"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic Disciplines known to him. To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline; you will notice that the psychic powers are numbered between one and six – the power generated corresponds to the number rolled on the D6. If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."

That is it, this is how you generate powers, something that does not happen with Chaos Psychic Focus.

Do you have any rules that state otherwise, if not please mark your posts How you would play it as what I have posted is RAW.

I'm in the no primaris camp.

Shingen wrote:
I'm in the no primaris camp.

That is how I would play it as well, but that is not what the RAW actually say.

It does and it doesn't, it's unclear so it makes sense until faq'd that you can't do it.

Shingen wrote:
It does and it doesn't, it's unclear so it makes sense until faq'd that you can't do it.

Actually, as I have proven with rules backing, the rules are pretty clear that you can have Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus, but I do not think many people will actually play that way.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
DR, when does the game start?
When does a model benefit from Psychic Focus/Chaos Psychic Focus?

The game starts sometime after the Seize the initiative roll, which is well after terrain is set up and after deployment, but I do not see what this has to do with the Generation of Psychic Powers.

A model benefits from Chaos Psychic Focus whenever "a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God"

For Psychic Focus, it benefits a model "if a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline"

But again what does this have to do with generating powers?

It has nothing to do with generating powers.

However, when I asked I was unsure if you included army building (which takes place after mission selection) to be part of the game.

If so, then the model gains a power from a different discipline during the course of the game and would lose Psychic Focus. Note that Psychic Focus says nothing about generating powers from other disciplines in game, only gaining them.

No, army/list building is done long before the game starts.

Actually I found this:

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle." (The Turn section, ‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’ sub-section).

So the game begins when the armies deploy for battle it seems.

Seize the Initiative happens before beginning the first game turn, but not necessarily before the game begins.

But either way list building happens before the game.

Just another nail in the " Psychic Powers are in fact generated before the game" coffin.

Hollismason wrote:
Just another nail in the " Psychic Powers are in fact generated before the game" coffin.

?

The rules actually state that Psychic Powers are in fact generated before the game.

The rule states

"Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins." (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Given this direct rules quote how can you claim that Psychic Powers are not generated before the game?

How can you claim that a psychic power from Chaos Focus is not generated then.

Hollismason wrote:
How can you claim that a psychic power from Chaos Focus is not generated then.

Because there are two ways to generate a power.

How to generate a power, Option 1:
"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers." (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Note that Daemons of X do not have any specific psychic powers listed.

How to generate a power, Option 2:
"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic Disciplines known to him. To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline; you will notice that the psychic powers are numbered between one and six – the power generated corresponds to the number rolled on the D6. If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated." (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

That is it, this is how you generate powers, something that does not happen with Chaos Psychic Focus.

Do you have any rules that state otherwise, if not please mark your posts How you would play it as what I have posted is RAW.

Except for that part where it says all psychic powers are generated. How do you get it then?

Hollismason wrote:
Except for that part where it says all psychic powers are generated. How do you get it then?

(Emphasis mine) Where does it say this (The underlined).

A model with Damon of X will automatically know the Primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity because of the Chaos Psychic Focus rule. this is not generation of a power though as Generating a power is outlined by the rules quotes I gave above and there are only two ways to generate powers as outlined in the BRB.

It is like you didn't even read my previous post.

Which is the way that it is generated.

Hollismason wrote:
Which is the way that it is generated.

Can you actually give some rules that state the Primaris is generated? (And not just automatically known).

If not, and you have not been able to yet, please mark your posts how you would play it, because I am dealing with the Rules As Written.

All psychic powers are generated before the game. Is it is a Psychic Power?

Are you now argueing that it is not in fact a psychic power?

Generating Psychic Powers

Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins.

Are you in fact now arguing that Psychic Powers generated by Psychic Focus and Chaos Focus are not psychic focus, then if not can you tell me when they are generated? ARe they generated during the game? Are they generated before the game begins?

When are these Psychic Powers generated?

You seem to have some sort of disconnect between the words, those are all methods for Generating Psychic Powers, not the other way around.

Why ?

Because it literally states in the beginning of the section that Psychic Powers are Generated before the game begins, all of them. It does not say " All psychic powers except X". All psychic powers are generated before the game begins.

Psykers do generate their psychic powers before the game begins.

But there is a specific process on how to generate powers, and Psychic focus and Chaos Psychic Focus do not follow this process therefore they are never generated as per the generation rules for Psychic powers.

Ergo A model with Damon of X will automatically know the Primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity. This is not how you generate psychic powers as such the Primaris gained this way does not fit the BRB's definition of Generate.

No the word otherwise says that they are generated randomly if not generated in some other way. That's what that sentence means.

that and the very beginning of the entire chapter says " Psychic Powers are generated before the game".

It doesn't matter if you get it because you killed a chicken and spread it's blood on your rulebook then called upon a great Loa, it doesn't matter if you got it out a gumball machine, it doesn't matter if you did William S. Burroughs style cut up your books threw it up into the air and what ever landed on the table was a psychic power.


If it is a Psychic Power, which it is, it is generate before the game begins.

You seem to think that those are the only two methods ever for generating psychic powers, no those are two methods. Once specifically states that there are other methods.

Doesn't the psyker have to have generated all of its psyker powers to get the focus?

 CrownAxe wrote:
Doesn't the psyker have to have generated all of its psyker powers to get the focus?

Sort of. it has to generate all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to get Psychic Focus. Psychic Focus though is gained not generated as generation of powers is a specific procvess as per my rules quotes above.

Hollismason wrote:
No the word otherwise says that they are generated randomly if not generated in some other way. That's what that sentence means.

The sentence means Psykers generate powers by having one or more specific psychic powers listed and apart from that they generate powers through random rolls. Those are the only two ways to generate a psychic Power as per the BRB.

that and the very beginning of the entire chapter says " Psychic Powers are generated before the game".

They are, but they also tell you how this happens and it happens in one of two ways.

It doesn't matter if you get it because you killed a chicken and spread it's blood on your rulebook then called upon a great Loa, it doesn't matter if you got it out a gumball machine, it doesn't matter if you did William S. Burroughs style cut up your books threw it up into the air and what ever landed on the table was a psychic power.

If it is a Psychic Power, which it is, it is generate before the game begins.

Incorrect. Psychic powers are generated in one of two ways, Stop ignoring the RAW.

You seem to think that those are the only two methods ever for generating psychic powers, no those are two methods.

No, those are the only two methods the BRB allows.

Once specifically states that there are other methods.

Where does it say this? Because the BRB is clear on how powers are generated.

If you do not have any actual rules backing then I am done with this, as you have yet to find any rules contrary to the rules I have posted.

It states it at the beginning of the chapter

Psykers generate their powers before the beginning of the game.

If this is not true then when does the Psyker gain Chaos Focus? If not at the beginning of the game, is it not a Psychic Power that is gained from this.

How does the Psyker recieve the power then?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Sort of. it has to generate all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to get Psychic Focus. Psychic Focus though is gained not generated as generation of powers is a specific procvess as per my rules quotes above.

The way i see it there are two parts that have to be met to get the psychic focus

a) must all be from the same disipline
b) must all have been generated

So having chaos focus prevents you getting psychic focus because not all of the psyker's powers were generated

Hello Logic My old friend

 CrownAxe wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Sort of. it has to generate all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to get Psychic Focus. Psychic Focus though is gained not generated as generation of powers is a specific procvess as per my rules quotes above.

The way i see it there are two parts that have to be met to get the psychic focus

a) must all be from the same disipline
b) must all have been generated

So having chaos focus prevents you getting psychic focus because not all of the psyker's powers were generated

No, it is all one statement, they must generate all of their powers from the same psychic discipline.

One restriction.

Hollismason wrote:
It states it at the beginning of the chapter

Psykers generate their powers before the beginning of the game.

If this is not true then when does the Psyker gain Chaos Focus? If not at the beginning of the game, is it not a Psychic Power that is gained from this.

How does the Psyker recieve the power then?

Generating a psychic power is not the same thing as gaining the Primaris through Psychic focus, this is the entire point.

Also I am still waiting on that citation, because you still have not given it. Where does the BRB specifically state that there are other methods for power generation?

I have given you the two rules on how to generate powers. Eithet they have it listed in their entry otherwise they roll for them. Those are the only two ways to generate a power.

You have yet to find any rules contrary to the rules I have posted, so I think this is settled.

I've already stated that it is just a list of how to generate psychic powers not the only methods for doing so.

Now since our friend so delicately pointed out, since you are not in fact generating all of your psychic powers from one discipline how are you getting psychic focus.

Hollismason wrote:
I've already stated that it is just a list of how to generate psychic powers not the only methods for doing so.

Yes you have, however the BRB disagrees with you.

Now since our friend so delicately pointed out, since you are not in fact generating all of your psychic powers from one discipline how are you getting psychic focus.

Except you are generating all your powers from a single discipline as there are only two ways to generate powers as per the previous rules quotes.

and Chaos Psychic Focus is not something that is generated, it is just something the models that meet the criteria automatically know.

Since you have continued to make claims without providing rules backing please mark your posts How you would play it as per the Tenets of the forum.

It states that you must generate pyschic powers from the same discipline , you have not you have gotten one "free/ Know/ whatever" from one discipline and generate the other ones.

Right, it states you must generate all powers from the same discipline.

You do not generate the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus.

So any rules to back up your statements? or is that HYWPI?

Having a power from a different discipline does not matter, generating a power from a different discipline does.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, it states you must generate all powers from the same discipline.

you do not generate the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus.

So any rules to back up your statements? or is that HYWPI?

And sense by your logic it is not generated you have not generated all of your spells from that discipline there fore you do not get psychic focus.

Hollismason wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, it states you must generate all powers from the same discipline.

you do not generate the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus.

So any rules to back up your statements? or is that HYWPI?

And sense [since] by your logic it is not generated you have not generated all of your spells from that discipline there fore you do not get psychic focus.

(Fixed that for you)
That is not what is required though.

You have indeed generated all of your powers from a single discipline.

you can have other powers as long as they are not generated.

CPF is never generated so the rule about needing to generate all of your powers from the same psychic discipline does not apply to Chaos Psychic Focus, since it is not generated.

Still no actual rules quotes?

You have in fact not as a power by your logic given to you that you got automatically does not fulfill the requirement of being generated

Not Generated
Generated
Generated
Generated
Primaris

= No

There is no requirement "of being generated"

"If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline"

If all of his generated powers come from the same discipline...

= Yes.

Your argument is incorrect as you do not have any Rules backing.

Please follow the tenets of the forum and mark your posts HYWPI.

Hollismason wrote:
You have in fact not as a power by your logic given to you that you got automatically does not fulfill the requirement of being generated

Not Generated
Generated
Generated
Generated
Primaris

= No

It places a limit on generatrion of powers, not how many powers the psyker "knows". If you generate all your powers from one disciplne you get focus, not if all the powers you have are from one discipline you gain focus. It places the limit on generation - if you gain powers in another way then you can still have generated all your powers from one discipline.

As DR state d- you need to start quoting some rules, as so far you have made an extraordinary claim (that despite there being only two methods given for the generation of powers, there are more ways to generate powers) without any backing for it.

Yes, we are aware that "randomly generate" and "generate" would certainly imply the former is the subset of the latter, but if there are no further methods listed, then the former is actually the set of the latter - they are equal. Or in other words, it doesnt matter if thre is a qualifier in front of the phrase if there are no other methods listed.

I've already posted the rules multiple times, the fact is DR believes that the only way you generate powers is two methods, because of it not having a qualifier, but we don't need to have that qualifier in front of each individual sentence as we know that all psychic powers are generated before the game begins.

Also, if you follow the logic of Chaos Focus not generating a Psychic Power.

Then units that automatically have Psychic Powers have not in fact generated their psychic powers.

Generating Psychic Powers

Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins. This is done openly, so both you and your opponent are aware of the power(s) each Psyker has generated. If your army includes more than one Psyker, you can choose the order in which you generate their powers.

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers.

Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

1. We know that all Psychic Abilities are generated before the game begins

2. This does not imply at all that the only method to generate Psychic Powers is by randomness. It's a distinction on a method of generation of powers, just the way the previous statement is a distinction on generation of specific powers

The idea that you only generate those specific ways is a very poor understanding of the grammar and comprehension. It's purposefully misreading those statements. We know this because it states OTHERWISE GENERATES, that doesn't mean that powers generated randomly are the only powers generated, it's a method for generating.

Psychic Focus

If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline’s primaris power in addition to his other powers. If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).

The psyker has generated a Psychic Power with Chaos focus, it doesn't matter if it states automatically knows, that is still the generation of a power. Why? Because we know definitively that all psychic powers are generated before the game begins


By DRs logic which is not correct Chaos Focus does not generate a psychic power , then the only way to meet the requirement of psychic focus is by two methods that he states which if you receive a psychic power by any other method, you have not generated all of your psychic powers from the same discipline and those methods only.

By this logic The only way to gain primaris is by generation of psychic powers by randomness

He's not generated all of his psychic powers from one discipline. He's been given on power automatically and generated the others. There for that statement is not made true.

Ah, actually we dont know that. We know they generate powers before the game begins. We do NOT know from that statement that all psychic powers that they know are generated, and therefore are acquired prior to the game start.

That is your assumption.

Secondly, note the "otherwise". This is defining an exhaustive list - generation is either already having a list of powers they know, OR it is through random generation. There is no allowance given here for another method to be called "generation" of powers. So if you *gain* a power, it is de facto NOT generation.

Pskyers generate their powers before the game begins.

It's a really simple statement, the rules are not written to purposefully confuse you and assume that a person will not purposefully misinterpret them. I mean gak, if you cut the rule book up into invidual pieces of paper then throw it into the air Council of Nicea style and then just follow whatever rules land on the table because at this point that's what people are doing.

Whichever weird logic rabbithole you run down whether it's " Their not generated because that word isn't use" when it is in fact used at the very beginning of the sentence. Still does not allow you to take Psychic Focus and get Chaos Focus at the same time.

Ah, so you dont have any rules to submit, just hyperbole, and the same assertion you have made throughout this thread?

Check out the tenets, please provide your rules citation, that explicitly overturns the points made, or concede you are arguing "HYWPI" as you are required to do.

Literally have constantly pointed to the rule and listed it. It's literally not figuratively the first statement in the beginning of the section. Psychic Powers are generated before the game begins.

Is it a Psychic Power? Yes/No If Yes : It's generated before the game begins.


Could not be simpler, I mean it's a Yes or No question.

They're contention that those two methods of generation are false is intrinsically wrong simply because those are two methods for generating psychic powers, not the only methods for generating Psychic Powers.

Does the psyker gain a psychic power? Yes, then it is generated before the game begins.

I don't know how to phrase it any simpler.

I mean i could maybe draw like a chart? I don't know how I can make it any clearer?

Give me your home address, I'll come over and bring some English workbooks, we can eat some fish sticks and macaroni and cheese afterwards maybe watch some cartoons, get a few games of 40k in. It'll be fun like a sleep over.

So what about models that gain psychic powers during the game? Oh look, an exception...

Again: the *rules* list two ways powers are generated. These are the only two ways that are *defined* for powers to be generated. Do you agree, or disagree with that?

Breaking this down to see whsere your misunderstanding is, then work from there.

Which you have rules for. A Wargear Item and Summoned Daemons which state that they generate their spells then and there.

The rules list two methods for generating psychic powers. No where in that statement or paragraph does it state " These are the only way to generate psychic powers". Those rules are also in the actual section called Generation of Psychic Powers. If you get a psychic power for whatever reason, you generate it before the game. It doesn't matter how.

That is not the only way to generate psychic powers.

In fact if you are going to argue their not then I'm going to argue that having a specific spell is not a generation of a psychic power, cause it doesn't state that they automatically generate just that they automatically know. The same wording as Chaos Focus. Those are not the only two methods for generation of psychic powers those are two methods on how to generate psychic powers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

This is done openly, so both you and your opponent are aware of the power(s) each Psyker has generated.

It even gives you the reason why you generate before game begins, so that your opponent knows what spells you have.

By that logic, if a spell isn't "generated" I don't have to tell my opponent gak.

So you disagree -that helps.

If you read more carefully, the construction DOES require it is exhaustive. I pointed this out - "otherwise" is an inclusive, this is the only other option term. If they wanted to phrase it as an open list, then they needed something akin to "an alternative method...".

Currently, as it stands, they list two methods and two methods alone as to how powers are generated. You cannot claim a power is generated unless it follows those two methods.

No where in that statement does it make that those are the only two methods for generating powers.

Even if that were not the case which it is because we know that Psychic powers are generated before the game begins in order to show your opponent.

Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers.

Chaos Focus and other powers specifically preclude them gaining Psychic Focus because they are not chosen by the Psyker but instead automatically known, which is still a generation even if you don't consider it to be one.

They're specifically using quotes out of context and paraphrasing.

The actual rules state you must choose. If something is automatically given to you it is not a choice. Please argue that you are given a choice to get Chaos Focus.

Has a psyker chosen a power from Chaos Focus? No

What does Psychic focus say ? That you must Choose

Do you get it then? No

There are no arguments to be made about this every path whether you agree with me or you agree with yourself does not allow you to get Chaos Focus and get Psychic Focus.

1. If you don't believe it's generated it still doesn't allow you to take psychic focus , as it's not chosen , you don't make a choice to take it.

2. If you agree with me , it's generated and precludes Psychic Focus

3. If you disagree that powers that are automatically known are not generated and do in fact allow you to take Psychic Focus, then you've turned that sentence into nonsense, because now Army Listings that have psychic powers listed get psychic focus. Why? Because you've eliminated the option that automatically knows does not preclude you from gaining it. So every one that has it listed in their entry still get's psychic focus. There's no exclusionary statement to make that says " Models that have a psychic power listed do not gain Psychic Focus" its just not there at all RAW. It doesn't need to be though because automatically knows or specifies precludes you from getting Psychic Focus unless you believe that specified and automatically known do not preclude psychic focus. So now, every Psyker that get's psychic abilties in their army listing or another method gets Psychic Focus.

Again, I have shown that it does limit it to those two choices. Just stating "no it doesnt" isnt debate.

Show, using the rules, that it isnt a 2 item list and limited to such. Go from there.

Focus, chaotically or not, on this section, then move on. Dont just jump around.

I've already explained why and how it is not in fact and then furthered that argument on why even if you don't agree you're still wrong. So deal with that instead of punting which you just did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't have to prove anything you have the burden of proof on you , not the other way around. As you are trying to prove you have permission and I am saying you don't.

I've listed multiple reasons why it doesn't work. Address them or just realize you can't.

No, youve made an assertion - that there are more ways to generate psychic powers than the exactly 2 methods the rules state there are.

You havent shown it. You've claimed it, but not proven it. Prove it - the burden is on you on this matter. Further ducking of it is concession that you cannot, so please, show some proof using the actual, written ruels as to why, when they wrote an inclusive list they didnt really mean to.

As I said above, focus on this section, then move onto the rest. As if you DONT prove this section, then your argument falls apart.

I don't have to present to you a thesis on how the english language works buddy.

I've already proven it with my statements you've not proven it at all that those are the only two methods of generation as we know there are other methods of generating powers.

Yet you continue to dodge the question and no it in fact doesn't "destroy" my argument. As you've not proven that " psychic powers are generated before the game" does not apply to Chaos Focus. It's a seven word sentence that makes a definitive statement, please prove it false or give up. The only "proof" I need is that people understand the english language and what words mean and those words are in fact present in the rulebook which they are.

I used your own incorrect logic and interpretation to prove that it still doesn't work and you can't address it because it's correct so you just dodge the question with what ever kind of bs you can come up with.

This is you dodging the question whether you agree with me or not, it doesn't prove your statement as I've already disproved it by illustrating that even if I am wrong you are still incorrect with your assertion.

But you do need to show some actual rules that state that there are more than just two ways to generate powers.


You say you have proven it, but some actual rules quotes would be nice for once instead of your assertations.

I've already literally quoted ad nauseum the rules and why that is in fact just two methods and not the only way to generate powers. You prove otherwise because no where in there does it state that those are the only two methods.

You are also unable to disprove the fallacies I've pointed out in your own statement instead trying to turn this into some sort of weird Joseph Heller novella.

You are just either stubbornly refusing to believe a simple statement or fundamentally don't understand it at some level.

You are just wrong and watching this conversation is like watching a fish trying to breath air.

Let's say I am wrong, now prove that you are right. Cause your not and I already explained why you just refuse to address because all you can come up with is stalling tactics, because you don't want to admit that you in fact are wrong.

I have proven why there are only two ways to generate powers.

It is an either or thing. let me quote then i'll throw it to you.

there are two ways to generate a power.

How to generate a power, Option 1:
"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers." (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Note that Daemons of X do not have any specific psychic powers listed.

How to generate a power, Option 2:
"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic Disciplines known to him. To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline; you will notice that the psychic powers are numbered between one and six – the power generated corresponds to the number rolled on the D6. If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated." (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

That is it, this is how you generate powers, something that does not happen with Chaos Psychic Focus.

Do you have any rules that state otherwise, if not please mark your posts How you would play it as what I have posted is RAW.

Now, try to prove that there is another way to generate powers, using rules quotes please. (But you will not be able to, as no other ways exist in the rules).

Psykers generate powers before the game begins. <- That's all I need.

Now explain to me how if I am wrong you are still right. Cause I've already pointed out that unless you choose all of your psychic powers from the same discipline you do not get psychic focus.

Hollismason wrote:
Psykers generate powers before the game begins.

Right, but that does not say how.

Show me some rules that state how this happens other than the rules I just posted.

If you can not then the rules I have posted are the only two ways to generate powers.

The method of generation doesn't need to be known at all it is inconsequential to the argument

From that statement we know Psychic Powers are generated before the game begins, the method doesn't matter.

When does a psyker recieve his psychic power from Chaos Focus?

Before the game begins because that is when powers are generated.

That's all I need because I understand the English Language.


Look you live in Chicago, I run a GED tutoring program at a local Homeless Shelter where I tutor kids in English, why don't you stop by some time.

And you still haven't even came close to proving you are right because your logic is flawed and cuts its own throat. Here it is again.

Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers.

Chaos Focus and other powers specifically preclude them gaining Psychic Focus because they are not chosen by the Psyker but instead automatically known, which is still a generation even if you don't consider it to be one.

They're specifically using quotes out of context and paraphrasing.

The actual rules state you must choose. If something is automatically given to you it is not a choice. Please argue that you are given a choice to get Chaos Focus.

Has a psyker chosen a power from Chaos Focus? No

What does Psychic focus say ? That you must Choose

Do you get it then? No

There are no arguments to be made about this every path whether you agree with me or you agree with yourself does not allow you to get Chaos Focus and get Psychic Focus.

1. If you don't believe it's generated it still doesn't allow you to take psychic focus , as it's not chosen , you don't make a choice to take it.

2. If you agree with me , it's generated and precludes Psychic Focus

3. If you disagree that powers that are automatically known are not generated and do in fact allow you to take Psychic Focus, then you've turned that sentence into nonsense, because now Army Listings that have psychic powers listed get psychic focus. Why? Because you've eliminated the option that automatically knows does not preclude you from gaining it. So every one that has it listed in their entry still get's psychic focus. There's no exclusionary statement to make that says " Models that have a psychic power listed do not gain Psychic Focus" its just not there at all RAW. It doesn't need to be though because automatically knows or specifies precludes you from getting Psychic Focus unless you believe that specified and automatically known do not preclude psychic focus. So now, every Psyker that get's psychic abilties in their army listing or another method gets Psychic Focus.

I'm not sure if this has come up (as I read most of the thread, but I may have missed it.) But are people arguing that a Daemon unit created in game doesn't get Psychic focus (as it gains Chaos Psychic focus "during the game") but one purchased in your army list does get both?

This may be RAW, but I would say that making them exclusive is a cleaner rule.

Hollismason wrote:
The method of generation doesn't need to be known at all it is inconsequential to the argument

And this is why your argument falls apart. I have proven there are only two ways to generate powers. If there is another lets see some rules stating such.

From that statement we know Psychic Powers are generated before the game begins, the method doesn't matter.

The method is one of two ways. if a psychic power is generated it will be listed in the entry or rolled for. any other psychic powers the model gets are not generated powers if they do not follow the generation methods.

When does a psyker recieve his psychic power from Chaos Focus?

Before the game begins because that is when powers are generated.

He gets it before the game, but Chaos Psychic Focus is not generated as heralds of Tzeentch do not have powers listed nor do they roll for the Primaris of the Change Discipline.

Look you live in Chicago, I run a GED tutoring program at a local Homeless Shelter where I tutor kids in English, why don't you stop by some time.

Wow rude and unnecessary...

And you still haven't even came close to proving you are right because your logic is flawed and cuts its own throat.

I have rules quotes that back up my statements, something you have yet to have.

P.S. you can not highlight part of the rule and claim things.

if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers.

If you do not choose the power this line does not restrict anything. If you do not generate the power this line does not restrict anything.

Did you choose to gain the power from chaos focus?

No you didn't.

There fore you didn't choose all of your spells from the same discipline.

End of discussion. I've already quoted it ad nauseum. Those same "rules you quote" disprove your argument.

Again

Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers.

Did you chose the power you recieved from Chaos Focus?

No you did not.

There for you did not choose all of your powers from the same psychic discipline.

Your logic is borken. You are welcome to come and hang out with my kids and we can go over some English lessons it's actually a lot of fun we play games, there's usually snacks, and the chances of being stabbed are relatively low.

Breng77 wrote:
I'm not sure if this has come up (as I read most of the thread, but I may have missed it.) But are people arguing that a Daemon unit created in game doesn't get Psychic focus (as it gains Chaos Psychic focus "during the game") but one purchased in your army list does get both?

This may be RAW, but I would say that making them exclusive is a cleaner rule.

No their claim is that there are only two methods of generating psychic powers, and those two methods only. Anyhting else is not generated and there for models get Psychic Focus even if they have Chaos Focus because Chaos Focus doesn't generate a power it simply "is there".. something disproven by the statement that Psychic Powers are generated before the game begins.


It's like a computer that you instruct to clean the house and it burns your house down and kills your dog.

Hollismason wrote:
Did you choose to gain the power from chaos focus?

No you didn't.

There fore you didn't choose all of your spells from the same discipline.

End of discussion. I've already quoted it ad nauseum [sic]. Those same "rules you quote" disprove your argument.

No they do not.

Not choosing a power does not matter, you have to read the whole rule and not just part of it.

if you choose all of your powers from a single discipline...

(AKA out of the powers you get to choose, if you make all of your rolls on the same discipline...).

Powers that you do not choose have nothing to do with it.

Again

Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers.

Again, you can not just underline part of the rule. you need to take the whole rule into account. It is like Context matters or something...

Did you chose the power you recieved [sic] from Chaos Focus?

No you did not.

Which of course the very reason that line about choosing powers is not relevant to Chaos Psychic Focus.

There for you did not choose all of your powers from the same psychic discipline.

Yes you have, since you do not choose CPF at all, you have chosen all of your powers from the same discipline. You only choose powers in regards to the generation rules, so the line about choosing is talking about random generation.

Your logic is borken [sic]. You are welcome to come and hang out with my kids and we can go over some English lessons it's actually a lot of fun we play games, there's usually snacks, and the chances of being stabbed are relatively low.

Again, not necessary, needed and frankly really rude. Please stop.

Breng77 wrote:
I'm not sure if this has come up (as I read most of the thread, but I may have missed it.) But are people arguing that a Daemon unit created in game doesn't get Psychic focus (as it gains Chaos Psychic focus "during the game") but one purchased in your army list does get both?

This may be RAW, but I would say that making them exclusive is a cleaner rule.

No their claim is that there are only two methods of generating psychic powers, and those two methods only. Anyhting[sic] else is not generated and there for models get Psychic Focus even if they have Chaos Focus because Chaos Focus doesn't generate a power it simply "is there".. something disproven by the statement that Psychic Powers are generated before the game begins.

@ thread

Please tone down the rhetoric. Rule Number One is Be Polite, which should be relatively easy to fulfill considering we are here to discuss toy soldiers. Thanks!

Hahaha how can you even argue that seriously.

You are still getting a power that you have not chosen from a different discipline.

Psychic Focus

If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline’s primaris power in addition to his other powers.[u] If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power). [/u[

If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.

You don't meet the requirements. You've not generated all of your psychic powers from the same discipline, you generated psychic powers from one discpline, then (by your logic) been given a psychic power by an ability. Since All of your psychic powers were not in fact generated from one discipline, you were given one and then generated some. You do not get psychic focus.

Just wanted to point out that this does not say "during" it says course, which means the entirety

If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).


He is getting a power from a another discipline through the Chaos Focus discipline. It says nothing regarding when that is. If we make up army list and the turn hasn't started or the game hasn't begun it doesn't matter. During the entirety of the game if he somehow gains a power that's outside of his discipline he loses it. You'd be right if it said during, but it doesn't before the game is still during the course of the game, during the course of the game you generate psychic powers.

So yet another area that you are wrong in. You don't have to generate it during the game you just have to gain a power from a different discipline during the entire course of the game which, Chaos Focus does.

Stop ignoring half of that sentence.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Now, try to prove that there is another way to generate powers, using rules quotes please. (But you will not be able to, as no other ways exist in the rules).

Scrolls of Magnus is a CSM artifact that generates powers during the game and is neither of the two quoted methods. So your statement is incorrect.

I think there was an actual issue with Scrolls of Magnus allowing you to get Pyschic Focus some how but I can't find the thread.

 DeathReaper wrote:

(AKA out of the powers you get to choose, if you make all of your rolls on the same discipline...).

Not to be that guy but isn't this an assumption?

BRB: "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...."

What makes a Chaos Primaris power not count into "all of his powers"?
It does not specifically say "If every power a Psyker generates is of the same discipline...". If you want to break it down semantically (which you guys have been doing) the BRB does not reward Psychic Focus if one of your psykers powers is not generated (as per the BRB), even if it is in the same discipline.

I do agree with you about generating powers tho. The rules are both stupidly vague and infuriatingly specific (that your non random powers needs to be listed in the Army List Entry) at the same time. I think GW writers take a class or something about writing this way.

Fun fact is that a summoned Herald would have one less power than one taken from the start too

A Level 1 would still have two powers, so it's not that big a deal.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Now, try to prove that there is another way to generate powers, using rules quotes please. (But you will not be able to, as no other ways exist in the rules).

Scrolls of Magnus is a CSM artifact that generates powers during the game and is neither of the two quoted methods. So your statement is incorrect.

Context Mate, in the rules is clearly referencing the BRB

Of course codex will trump rulebook when there is a conflict...

Oh so we are suppose to infer context of rules now and not when it is convenient? Cause the obvious whole context of that is that you do not in fact recieve a Psychic Focus if you get Chaos Focus.

Hollismason wrote:
Oh so we are suppose to infer context of rules now and not when it is convenient for you personally.

What are you talking about, I was responding to Rig about how my post, when I said [Now, try to prove that there is another way to generate powers, using rules quotes please. (But you will not be able to, as no other ways exist in the rules).]

I was referring to the Rules in the BRB in that post.

The Context of my post was in regards to the BRB not any Codexes...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Now, try to prove that there is another way to generate powers, using rules quotes please. (But you will not be able to, as no other ways exist in the rules).

Scrolls of Magnus is a CSM artifact that generates powers during the game and is neither of the two quoted methods. So your statement is incorrect.

Context Mate, in the rules is clearly referencing the BRB

Of course codex will trump rulebook when there is a conflict...

 DeathReaper wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Psychic focus says you lose it if you know any other powers during the course of the game, they auto know their god powers as such as can never get psychic focus and chaos focus.

Except you do not gain any powers from any other disciplines during the course of the game, you gain the Chaos Psychic Focus before the game starts.

Again, incorrect. Your context from your first few posts has been, essentially, "ever". And the statement I just quoted is demonstrably incorrect - You can gain powers from other disciplines during the course of the game, so assumptions based on that cannot be valid.

The whole time I have been talking about the rules in the BRB. Never once have I mentioned codex Mate.

The point is that arguments have to take into account all rules, not just some.

When taking all rules into account your statements are demonstrably incorrect and so basing an argument off of them is incorrect.

Breng77 wrote:
I'm not sure if this has come up (as I read most of the thread, but I may have missed it.) But are people arguing that a Daemon unit created in game doesn't get Psychic focus (as it gains Chaos Psychic focus "during the game") but one purchased in your army list does get both?

This may be RAW, but I would say that making them exclusive is a cleaner rule.

After reading this whole thread, I believe that Breng has hit an important part. By the arguments presented by the side in favor having both primaris powers, the newly summoned unit would not receive it. This is because it has "gained a psychic power during the game" that was not from the specific tree. So you would have a case were the two exactly identical units have a the exact same rules applied to them in a different manner. One would get the extra power simply from the fact that it was on the army list before the game.

This doesn't make sense to me and firmly puts me in the camp that you would lose your power. I happen to agree with the fact that gaining a psychic power from the special "mark of/deamon" rule is in fact "generating" a power. I believe this because it is all under the rules section of "generating psychic powers" and not under it's own special rule section that is exclusive of this whole process. I know my opinion won't sway either side of this argument but I thought that I may as well put it out there.

A distinction to be made while "gaining a psychic power during the course of the game" and not "during the game"..

The entire course of a game is in fact before the game actually starts and afterwards.


‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’

During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers . These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.


Psychic Powers are generated before the army deploys but after the game has started hence the statement beginning of the game. A the course is from the beginning to the end. It makes a clear distinction of if you gain psychic powers for any reason.

At any time during the game you gain a psychic power, you lose Psychic Focus. It is quiet clear when the beginning of the game is and it's before you deploy, it's still during the game though.

That's a important distinction to make.


I think irrevocably you can say that with all evidence presented you do not in fact gain Psychic Focus if you have Chaos Focus. So yeah that's that then.

Hollismason wrote:
A distinction to be made while "gaining a psychic power during the course of the game" and not "during the game"..

The entire course of a game is in fact before the game actually starts and afterwards.


‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’

During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers . These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.


Psychic Powers are generated before the army deploys but after the game has started hence the statement beginning of the game. A the course is from the beginning to the end. It makes a clear distinction of if you gain psychic powers for any reason.

At any time during the game you gain a psychic power, you lose Psychic Focus. It is quiet clear when the beginning of the game is and it's before you deploy, it's still during the game though.

That's a important distinction to make.


I think irrevocably you can say that with all evidence presented you do not in fact gain Psychic Focus if you have Chaos Focus. So yeah that's that then.

And the rules I have posted prove that the above is incorrect, So your arguments have no actual rules backing. So yeah that's that then.

Really show me. Cause it literally says if a psyker gains a power during the course of the game they lose psychic focus. I literally just posted the rules on why and quoted the rulebook. Show me how the statement gains a psychic power during the course of the game does not apply to Chaos Focus and is false.

They are gaining a psychic power through Chaos Focus, there fore they lose the psychic power because during the course of the game they've gained a psychic power that's not the same discipline that they've used to gain Psychic Focus, that's not a one time thing. That's a continual rule that the Psyker has, it doesn't go away after the beginning of the game. They always have that rule through out the game.

Argue with me that that statement isn't true.

You are just wrong , give it up dude. There's no way to say " I get Chaos Focus and Psychic Focus" no matter how much you twist and turn and approach the rules from a illogical standpoint. It's just not happening.

The arguments over. You lost, move on to the next crazy thing you want to talk about that you can do and actually can't.

You're just wrong, deal with that emotionally or however you have to.

Jusr barging in to say that i don't see the fuse about those "Demon factory" gak, if you don't have a list build around it is useless.

last night even with 7 WC dices and the reroll from the familliar i was unable to summon a single Demon, over three turns.

Its not worth the 200pts for a CS sorceror, next time i will use a Technomancer to repair my freakin Mauler that gets immobilised each freakin time.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Jusr barging in to say that i don't see the fuse about those "Demon factory" gak, if you don't have a list build around it is useless.

last night even with 7 WC dices and the reroll from the familliar i was unable to summon a single Demon, over three turns.

Its not worth the 200pts for a CS sorceror, next time i will use a Technomancer to repair my freakin Mauler that gets immobilised each freakin time.

It's not really a tactic for Chaos Space Marines.
They lack the volume of Psykers and warp charge generating units.
And they still peril on any double.

Hollismason wrote:
Really show me. Cause it literally says if a psyker gains a power during the course of the game they lose psychic focus. I literally just posted the rules on why and quoted the rulebook. Show me how the statement gains a psychic power during the course of the game does not apply to Chaos Focus and is false.

I have shown you the rules, you refuse to accept what is printed in the BRB.

it does literally say that if a psyker gains a power during the course of the game they lose psychic focus. Not that it says during the game, not before the game starts... CPF is gained before the game starts. so Psychic Focus is not lost smply by gaining CPF before the game starts.

They are gaining a psychic power through Chaos Focus,

True!

there fore they lose the psychic power because during the course of the game they've gained a psychic power that's not the same discipline that they've used to gain Psychic Focus, that's not a one time thing.

False. they do not gain the power during the game, they gain it before the game starts.

That's a continual rule that the Psyker has, it doesn't go away after the beginning of the game. They always have that rule through out the game.

No, They have not gained that psychic power during the game, which of course is what the actual rule says in order to lose Psychic Focus...

a Psyker can not gain a power more than once. It does not matter if they HAVE the power during the game, as long as they do not GAIN the power during the game, the rule that says [if a psyker gains a power during the course of the game...] is not relevant because, of course, the psyker DID NOT gain the power during the course of the game...

Argue with me that that statement isn't true.

You are just wrong , give it up dude. There's no way to say " I get Chaos Focus and Psychic Focus" no matter how much you twist and turn and approach the rules from a illogical standpoint. It's just not happening.

Incorrect, your arguments fail to cite rules. Mine cite rules, it is not I that does not have rules backing...

The arguments over.

It is, since you can not cite any rules to the contrary.

You lost, move on to the next crazy thing you want to talk about that you can do and actually can't.

What? are you insinuating something?

You're just wrong, deal with that emotionally or however you have to.

1) Please follow dakka's rules.

2) your arguments are the incorrect arguments as you have no actual rules backing.

3) it seems we are done, you do not follow the tenets of YMDC, you do not back up your statements with any actual rules that actually support those statements, your arguments are flimsy at best, but they really do not hold water.

I've already stated multiple times why it does not in fact work along with the rules why it does not. You refuse to acknowledge or at least apply any modicum of logic or intelligence and responses have just been blatantly ignorant in acknowledging even basic rudimentary logic to anything I have stated or referenced.

During the Course of the game does not mean "Just during game turns" it literally states during the game, before the game begins means before you deploy your armies, not before you get to the actual gaming store and ever consider playing.

The entire course of the game is beginning to end. At any time you gain a psychic power you lose psychic focus.

Chaos Focus is a special ability that now applies to anyone that has a Mark and is a Psyker and gives them a Psychic Ability of their god.

This does not go away and is continual through the game. They are gaining a ability through out the game just like Psychic Focus. Psychic Focus and Chaos focus are special abilities that give access to a power through out the game.

They are gaining a psychic power.


You have no rules basis that Chaos Focus goes away during the game, as it does not neither does Psychic Focus. You can't lose Chaos Focus as you can Psychic Focus.


Anyway you try and put it. You lose the power due to gaining one from Chaos Focus.

That's not to even start on the "Chaos Focus doesn't generate a power" argument that you feel is true which isn't in fact true.

Here's everything you ignore

1. Psychic Powers are generated before the game begins. You insist that this isn't when you generate powers for Chaos Focus. This is mentioned in literally two places in the book as I've pointed out.

2. Psychic Focus is lost whenever you gain a power through out the entire course of the game. You claim that you "magically gain" Chaos Focus, then chaos Focus "disappears" after it has not in fact generated a power.

3. There are only two methods for generating psychic powers, which we've proven to be untrue.

Yes, if you completely ignore actual statements from the book along with not approaching the rules with any intelligence or basic rudimentary logic, you can justify any statement.

Hollismason wrote:
I've already stated multiple times why it does not in fact work along with the rules why it does not.

Those rules quotes do not say what you think they say.

Bottom line, RAW a daemon of X can have Chaos Psychic Focus, and Psychic focus.

I have shown rules support and there is nothing you have posted that goes against this rules support.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, so you dont have any rules to submit, just hyperbole, and the same assertion you have made throughout this thread?

Check out the tenets, please provide your rules citation, that explicitly overturns the points made, or concede you are arguing "HYWPI" as you are required to do.

Nos is 100% correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
Anyway you try and put it. You lose the power due to gaining one from Chaos Focus.

You only lose Psychic Focus if you gain the power DURING the game.

Chaos Psychic Focus is not gained during the game.

You do not continually gain the primaris associated with the patron deity, you gain it once, and that time is before the game begins. Please stop saying otherwise, it is 100% incorrect.

So again your arguments fall short.

I've already stated that it specifically says during the course of the game, not during the game.

Chaos Focus is a ability that gives you a Psychic Power through out the game including gaining a power before deployment.

Before the game does not literally mean before you ever start the game in general" but in fact means - before armies deploy".

That is during the course of the game. You are still playing the game and starting the game when you roll for psychic powers. You are engaged in playing the game when you start the game and begin.

They lose psychic focus because during the course of the game they gained an psychic power through Chaos Focus.

It states in multiple places that Psychic Powers are generated, in multiple instances and that those two methods are not the only methods for generating psychic methods but in fact two types of methods that can.


1. Here is your logic , before the game begins means - before the game ever starts. This is a false dichotomy.
It literally states :

‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’

During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.

You have to start the game, in order to begin it just FYI.

Here is what a False Dichotomy means as I don't think you know.
http://www.philosophy-index.com/logic/fallacies/false-dilemma.php


Psychic Focus States

If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power)

You have, you've gained a Psychic Power from Chaos Focus, during the course of a game



Here is why it is generated

Generating Psychic Powers

Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins. This is done openly, so both you and your opponent are aware of the power(s) each Psyker has generated. If your army includes more than one Psyker, you can choose the order in which you generate their powers.

You claim that the following two methods are the only methods, when in actuality they are conditions

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

This does not mean that the only way you generate psychic powers is randomly, in fact your claim that those are two methods fails because it is illogical. If that were a true statement, any Psychic Power other than by that method it would be disallowed because it conflicts with statements that say "automatically known".

These are two conditional methods for generating powers. Not the only method for generating powers.

If you were in fact correct, then any model that did not "randomly generate" a psychic power would not have generated that power as the first sentence does not generate psychic powers.



In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers.

By your own logic this means this is not a generation of a psychic power as it does not use the word generate anywhere in the statement.


You're just patently false , make false statements, ignore basic grammar, any kind of context to the statement, and rudimentary logic , along with ignoring actual statements from the rules in order to reach your conclusion.


I think you will find the following article useful to read and learn.

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logical-fallacies

During the course of the game is the same as during the game. they are synonymous.

As noted n the rules for "owning player, opposing player and controlling player" in the general principles section:


"The controlling player is always the player in current command of that model – there are some special rules which can force models to switch sides during the course of the game."

During the course of the game is the same as after the game starts or during the game.

Since you have no rules support, please follow the tenets and mark that you are arguing "HYWPI" as you are required to do.

The start of the game is still the course of the game.

I've already listed the rules support and rules themselves.

Like are you saying I need to show you in the rules what these words mean within the rulebook, which is not a dictionary?

Wait, do you think that it means during dinner? Like in a actual meal course?

Okay.

During the course of the game. Does not mean during a meal.


4.
the continuous passage or progress through time or a succession of stages: in the course of a year; in the course of the battle.

This is what that means.

I mean if you are unclear on what words mean?

Do you know what game means? Like it means the game, not like wild animals.

It means this definition

3.
a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators.

Not


16.
pertaining to or composed of animals hunted or taken as game or to their flesh.


Like they're not talking about a meal of animals.

Yea, Sorry I am going to have to put you on ignore, you have been constantly rude and also have no rules backing and have not marked your posts "HYWPI" as you are required to do.

Before the game is not during the course of the game.

If it were there would be a way to "force models to switch sides during the course of the game." before the game starts, but this can not happen so during the course of the game is after the game starts.

The game does not start until deployment. During the course of the game means when the game is being played. the game has to start before it is being played. That is during the course of the game, sometime after the game starts qualifies for being during the course of the game, before the game starts does not.

Just read through this and wanted to throw in.

CSM cannot benefit from normal focus, and here is why. Page 30 of the Codex states that a marked psyker must Generate 1 of it's powers from it's patron's table. Page 22 of the rulebook says to get Psychic focus you must generate all your powers from the say discipline, while Chaos focus does not use the word Generate. So we have 2 ways to look at this;

1. Chaos focus' free power counts as generating a power, thus satisfying the requirement from the Mark of Chaos in the codex, but means you have generated a power from another discipline.
2. Chaos focus' free power does not count as generating a power, thus you must use one of you rolls on the god's table. Which will obviously rule out Psychic Focus.

The codex rule does specifically say Generate, and there is no mention in the FAQ.

Daemons, however, do not need to generate a power from their patron's table so things get a little different.

1. Chaos focus' free power counts as generating a power, thus you do not get psychic focus.
or
2. Chaos focus' free power does not count as generating a power, thus you can benefit from psychic focus.

Daemons will need an FAQ to specify which is true, as will CSM so you know whether or not Chaos focus will satisfy the required generated power from your god's table.

Demerean wrote:
Just read through this and wanted to throw in.

CSM cannot benefit from normal focus, and here is why. Page 30 of the Codex states that a marked psyker must Generate 1 of it's powers from it's patron's table. Page 22 of the rulebook says to get Psychic focus you must generate all your powers from the say discipline, while Chaos focus does not use the word Generate. So we have 2 ways to look at this;

Yes, Chaos Space Marines must generate one from their gods discipline. so CSM can not gain Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic focus. (Or rather they can but it results in a duplicate power, like if they generate all from the Tzeentch table they benefit from Psychic Focus but it does nothing as they already have the primaris from that discipline through Chaos Psychic Focus).

Daemons, however, do not need to generate a power from their patron's table so things get a little different.

1. Chaos focus' free power counts as generating a power, thus you do not get psychic focus.
or
2. Chaos focus' free power does not count as generating a power, thus you can benefit from psychic focus.

Daemons will need an FAQ to specify which is true, as will CSM so you know whether or not Chaos focus will satisfy the required generated power from your god's table.

1) No it does not count as generating a power as power generation happens in one of the two ways the rules say it does and that I have quoted.

2) This is correct.

Daemons of X do not have to generate one from their gods discipline, and the power associated with the Chaos Psychic Focus rule is not generated as there are only two ways to generate powers that are listed in the BRB.

As I have said this is not likely intended, but it currently is RAW.