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Pskyers generate their powers before the game begins.

It's a really simple statement, the rules are not written to purposefully confuse you and assume that a person will not purposefully misinterpret them. I mean gak, if you cut the rule book up into invidual pieces of paper then throw it into the air Council of Nicea style and then just follow whatever rules land on the table because at this point that's what people are doing.

Whichever weird logic rabbithole you run down whether it's " Their not generated because that word isn't use" when it is in fact used at the very beginning of the sentence. Still does not allow you to take Psychic Focus and get Chaos Focus at the same time.

Ah, so you dont have any rules to submit, just hyperbole, and the same assertion you have made throughout this thread?

Check out the tenets, please provide your rules citation, that explicitly overturns the points made, or concede you are arguing "HYWPI" as you are required to do.

Literally have constantly pointed to the rule and listed it. It's literally not figuratively the first statement in the beginning of the section. Psychic Powers are generated before the game begins.

Is it a Psychic Power? Yes/No If Yes : It's generated before the game begins.


Could not be simpler, I mean it's a Yes or No question.

They're contention that those two methods of generation are false is intrinsically wrong simply because those are two methods for generating psychic powers, not the only methods for generating Psychic Powers.

Does the psyker gain a psychic power? Yes, then it is generated before the game begins.

I don't know how to phrase it any simpler.

I mean i could maybe draw like a chart? I don't know how I can make it any clearer?

Give me your home address, I'll come over and bring some English workbooks, we can eat some fish sticks and macaroni and cheese afterwards maybe watch some cartoons, get a few games of 40k in. It'll be fun like a sleep over.

So what about models that gain psychic powers during the game? Oh look, an exception...

Again: the *rules* list two ways powers are generated. These are the only two ways that are *defined* for powers to be generated. Do you agree, or disagree with that?

Breaking this down to see whsere your misunderstanding is, then work from there.

Which you have rules for. A Wargear Item and Summoned Daemons which state that they generate their spells then and there.

The rules list two methods for generating psychic powers. No where in that statement or paragraph does it state " These are the only way to generate psychic powers". Those rules are also in the actual section called Generation of Psychic Powers. If you get a psychic power for whatever reason, you generate it before the game. It doesn't matter how.

That is not the only way to generate psychic powers.

In fact if you are going to argue their not then I'm going to argue that having a specific spell is not a generation of a psychic power, cause it doesn't state that they automatically generate just that they automatically know. The same wording as Chaos Focus. Those are not the only two methods for generation of psychic powers those are two methods on how to generate psychic powers.


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This is done openly, so both you and your opponent are aware of the power(s) each Psyker has generated.

It even gives you the reason why you generate before game begins, so that your opponent knows what spells you have.

By that logic, if a spell isn't "generated" I don't have to tell my opponent gak.

So you disagree -that helps.

If you read more carefully, the construction DOES require it is exhaustive. I pointed this out - "otherwise" is an inclusive, this is the only other option term. If they wanted to phrase it as an open list, then they needed something akin to "an alternative method...".

Currently, as it stands, they list two methods and two methods alone as to how powers are generated. You cannot claim a power is generated unless it follows those two methods.

No where in that statement does it make that those are the only two methods for generating powers.

Even if that were not the case which it is because we know that Psychic powers are generated before the game begins in order to show your opponent.

Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers.

Chaos Focus and other powers specifically preclude them gaining Psychic Focus because they are not chosen by the Psyker but instead automatically known, which is still a generation even if you don't consider it to be one.

They're specifically using quotes out of context and paraphrasing.

The actual rules state you must choose. If something is automatically given to you it is not a choice. Please argue that you are given a choice to get Chaos Focus.

Has a psyker chosen a power from Chaos Focus? No

What does Psychic focus say ? That you must Choose

Do you get it then? No

There are no arguments to be made about this every path whether you agree with me or you agree with yourself does not allow you to get Chaos Focus and get Psychic Focus.

1. If you don't believe it's generated it still doesn't allow you to take psychic focus , as it's not chosen , you don't make a choice to take it.

2. If you agree with me , it's generated and precludes Psychic Focus

3. If you disagree that powers that are automatically known are not generated and do in fact allow you to take Psychic Focus, then you've turned that sentence into nonsense, because now Army Listings that have psychic powers listed get psychic focus. Why? Because you've eliminated the option that automatically knows does not preclude you from gaining it. So every one that has it listed in their entry still get's psychic focus. There's no exclusionary statement to make that says " Models that have a psychic power listed do not gain Psychic Focus" its just not there at all RAW. It doesn't need to be though because automatically knows or specifies precludes you from getting Psychic Focus unless you believe that specified and automatically known do not preclude psychic focus. So now, every Psyker that get's psychic abilties in their army listing or another method gets Psychic Focus.

Again, I have shown that it does limit it to those two choices. Just stating "no it doesnt" isnt debate.

Show, using the rules, that it isnt a 2 item list and limited to such. Go from there.

Focus, chaotically or not, on this section, then move on. Dont just jump around.

I've already explained why and how it is not in fact and then furthered that argument on why even if you don't agree you're still wrong. So deal with that instead of punting which you just did.


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I don't have to prove anything you have the burden of proof on you , not the other way around. As you are trying to prove you have permission and I am saying you don't.

I've listed multiple reasons why it doesn't work. Address them or just realize you can't.

No, youve made an assertion - that there are more ways to generate psychic powers than the exactly 2 methods the rules state there are.

You havent shown it. You've claimed it, but not proven it. Prove it - the burden is on you on this matter. Further ducking of it is concession that you cannot, so please, show some proof using the actual, written ruels as to why, when they wrote an inclusive list they didnt really mean to.

As I said above, focus on this section, then move onto the rest. As if you DONT prove this section, then your argument falls apart.

I don't have to present to you a thesis on how the english language works buddy.

I've already proven it with my statements you've not proven it at all that those are the only two methods of generation as we know there are other methods of generating powers.

Yet you continue to dodge the question and no it in fact doesn't "destroy" my argument. As you've not proven that " psychic powers are generated before the game" does not apply to Chaos Focus. It's a seven word sentence that makes a definitive statement, please prove it false or give up. The only "proof" I need is that people understand the english language and what words mean and those words are in fact present in the rulebook which they are.

I used your own incorrect logic and interpretation to prove that it still doesn't work and you can't address it because it's correct so you just dodge the question with what ever kind of bs you can come up with.

This is you dodging the question whether you agree with me or not, it doesn't prove your statement as I've already disproved it by illustrating that even if I am wrong you are still incorrect with your assertion.

But you do need to show some actual rules that state that there are more than just two ways to generate powers.


You say you have proven it, but some actual rules quotes would be nice for once instead of your assertations.

I've already literally quoted ad nauseum the rules and why that is in fact just two methods and not the only way to generate powers. You prove otherwise because no where in there does it state that those are the only two methods.

You are also unable to disprove the fallacies I've pointed out in your own statement instead trying to turn this into some sort of weird Joseph Heller novella.

You are just either stubbornly refusing to believe a simple statement or fundamentally don't understand it at some level.

You are just wrong and watching this conversation is like watching a fish trying to breath air.

Let's say I am wrong, now prove that you are right. Cause your not and I already explained why you just refuse to address because all you can come up with is stalling tactics, because you don't want to admit that you in fact are wrong.

I have proven why there are only two ways to generate powers.

It is an either or thing. let me quote then i'll throw it to you.

there are two ways to generate a power.

How to generate a power, Option 1:
"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers." (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Note that Daemons of X do not have any specific psychic powers listed.

How to generate a power, Option 2:
"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic Disciplines known to him. To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline; you will notice that the psychic powers are numbered between one and six – the power generated corresponds to the number rolled on the D6. If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated." (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

That is it, this is how you generate powers, something that does not happen with Chaos Psychic Focus.

Do you have any rules that state otherwise, if not please mark your posts How you would play it as what I have posted is RAW.

Now, try to prove that there is another way to generate powers, using rules quotes please. (But you will not be able to, as no other ways exist in the rules).

Psykers generate powers before the game begins. <- That's all I need.

Now explain to me how if I am wrong you are still right. Cause I've already pointed out that unless you choose all of your psychic powers from the same discipline you do not get psychic focus.

Hollismason wrote:
Psykers generate powers before the game begins.

Right, but that does not say how.

Show me some rules that state how this happens other than the rules I just posted.

If you can not then the rules I have posted are the only two ways to generate powers.

The method of generation doesn't need to be known at all it is inconsequential to the argument

From that statement we know Psychic Powers are generated before the game begins, the method doesn't matter.

When does a psyker recieve his psychic power from Chaos Focus?

Before the game begins because that is when powers are generated.

That's all I need because I understand the English Language.


Look you live in Chicago, I run a GED tutoring program at a local Homeless Shelter where I tutor kids in English, why don't you stop by some time.

And you still haven't even came close to proving you are right because your logic is flawed and cuts its own throat. Here it is again.

Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers.

Chaos Focus and other powers specifically preclude them gaining Psychic Focus because they are not chosen by the Psyker but instead automatically known, which is still a generation even if you don't consider it to be one.

They're specifically using quotes out of context and paraphrasing.

The actual rules state you must choose. If something is automatically given to you it is not a choice. Please argue that you are given a choice to get Chaos Focus.

Has a psyker chosen a power from Chaos Focus? No

What does Psychic focus say ? That you must Choose

Do you get it then? No

There are no arguments to be made about this every path whether you agree with me or you agree with yourself does not allow you to get Chaos Focus and get Psychic Focus.

1. If you don't believe it's generated it still doesn't allow you to take psychic focus , as it's not chosen , you don't make a choice to take it.

2. If you agree with me , it's generated and precludes Psychic Focus

3. If you disagree that powers that are automatically known are not generated and do in fact allow you to take Psychic Focus, then you've turned that sentence into nonsense, because now Army Listings that have psychic powers listed get psychic focus. Why? Because you've eliminated the option that automatically knows does not preclude you from gaining it. So every one that has it listed in their entry still get's psychic focus. There's no exclusionary statement to make that says " Models that have a psychic power listed do not gain Psychic Focus" its just not there at all RAW. It doesn't need to be though because automatically knows or specifies precludes you from getting Psychic Focus unless you believe that specified and automatically known do not preclude psychic focus. So now, every Psyker that get's psychic abilties in their army listing or another method gets Psychic Focus.

I'm not sure if this has come up (as I read most of the thread, but I may have missed it.) But are people arguing that a Daemon unit created in game doesn't get Psychic focus (as it gains Chaos Psychic focus "during the game") but one purchased in your army list does get both?

This may be RAW, but I would say that making them exclusive is a cleaner rule.

Hollismason wrote:
The method of generation doesn't need to be known at all it is inconsequential to the argument

And this is why your argument falls apart. I have proven there are only two ways to generate powers. If there is another lets see some rules stating such.

From that statement we know Psychic Powers are generated before the game begins, the method doesn't matter.

The method is one of two ways. if a psychic power is generated it will be listed in the entry or rolled for. any other psychic powers the model gets are not generated powers if they do not follow the generation methods.

When does a psyker recieve his psychic power from Chaos Focus?

Before the game begins because that is when powers are generated.

He gets it before the game, but Chaos Psychic Focus is not generated as heralds of Tzeentch do not have powers listed nor do they roll for the Primaris of the Change Discipline.

Look you live in Chicago, I run a GED tutoring program at a local Homeless Shelter where I tutor kids in English, why don't you stop by some time.

Wow rude and unnecessary...

And you still haven't even came close to proving you are right because your logic is flawed and cuts its own throat.

I have rules quotes that back up my statements, something you have yet to have.

P.S. you can not highlight part of the rule and claim things.

if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers.

If you do not choose the power this line does not restrict anything. If you do not generate the power this line does not restrict anything.

Did you choose to gain the power from chaos focus?

No you didn't.

There fore you didn't choose all of your spells from the same discipline.

End of discussion. I've already quoted it ad nauseum. Those same "rules you quote" disprove your argument.

Again

Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers.

Did you chose the power you recieved from Chaos Focus?

No you did not.

There for you did not choose all of your powers from the same psychic discipline.

Your logic is borken. You are welcome to come and hang out with my kids and we can go over some English lessons it's actually a lot of fun we play games, there's usually snacks, and the chances of being stabbed are relatively low.

Breng77 wrote:
I'm not sure if this has come up (as I read most of the thread, but I may have missed it.) But are people arguing that a Daemon unit created in game doesn't get Psychic focus (as it gains Chaos Psychic focus "during the game") but one purchased in your army list does get both?

This may be RAW, but I would say that making them exclusive is a cleaner rule.

No their claim is that there are only two methods of generating psychic powers, and those two methods only. Anyhting else is not generated and there for models get Psychic Focus even if they have Chaos Focus because Chaos Focus doesn't generate a power it simply "is there".. something disproven by the statement that Psychic Powers are generated before the game begins.


It's like a computer that you instruct to clean the house and it burns your house down and kills your dog.

Hollismason wrote:
Did you choose to gain the power from chaos focus?

No you didn't.

There fore you didn't choose all of your spells from the same discipline.

End of discussion. I've already quoted it ad nauseum [sic]. Those same "rules you quote" disprove your argument.

No they do not.

Not choosing a power does not matter, you have to read the whole rule and not just part of it.

if you choose all of your powers from a single discipline...

(AKA out of the powers you get to choose, if you make all of your rolls on the same discipline...).

Powers that you do not choose have nothing to do with it.

Again

Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers.

Again, you can not just underline part of the rule. you need to take the whole rule into account. It is like Context matters or something...

Did you chose the power you recieved [sic] from Chaos Focus?

No you did not.

Which of course the very reason that line about choosing powers is not relevant to Chaos Psychic Focus.

There for you did not choose all of your powers from the same psychic discipline.

Yes you have, since you do not choose CPF at all, you have chosen all of your powers from the same discipline. You only choose powers in regards to the generation rules, so the line about choosing is talking about random generation.

Your logic is borken [sic]. You are welcome to come and hang out with my kids and we can go over some English lessons it's actually a lot of fun we play games, there's usually snacks, and the chances of being stabbed are relatively low.

Again, not necessary, needed and frankly really rude. Please stop.

Breng77 wrote:
I'm not sure if this has come up (as I read most of the thread, but I may have missed it.) But are people arguing that a Daemon unit created in game doesn't get Psychic focus (as it gains Chaos Psychic focus "during the game") but one purchased in your army list does get both?

This may be RAW, but I would say that making them exclusive is a cleaner rule.

No their claim is that there are only two methods of generating psychic powers, and those two methods only. Anyhting[sic] else is not generated and there for models get Psychic Focus even if they have Chaos Focus because Chaos Focus doesn't generate a power it simply "is there".. something disproven by the statement that Psychic Powers are generated before the game begins.

@ thread

Please tone down the rhetoric. Rule Number One is Be Polite, which should be relatively easy to fulfill considering we are here to discuss toy soldiers. Thanks!

Hahaha how can you even argue that seriously.

You are still getting a power that you have not chosen from a different discipline.

Psychic Focus

If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline’s primaris power in addition to his other powers.[u] If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power). [/u[

If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.

You don't meet the requirements. You've not generated all of your psychic powers from the same discipline, you generated psychic powers from one discpline, then (by your logic) been given a psychic power by an ability. Since All of your psychic powers were not in fact generated from one discipline, you were given one and then generated some. You do not get psychic focus.

Just wanted to point out that this does not say "during" it says course, which means the entirety

If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).


He is getting a power from a another discipline through the Chaos Focus discipline. It says nothing regarding when that is. If we make up army list and the turn hasn't started or the game hasn't begun it doesn't matter. During the entirety of the game if he somehow gains a power that's outside of his discipline he loses it. You'd be right if it said during, but it doesn't before the game is still during the course of the game, during the course of the game you generate psychic powers.

So yet another area that you are wrong in. You don't have to generate it during the game you just have to gain a power from a different discipline during the entire course of the game which, Chaos Focus does.

Stop ignoring half of that sentence.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Now, try to prove that there is another way to generate powers, using rules quotes please. (But you will not be able to, as no other ways exist in the rules).

Scrolls of Magnus is a CSM artifact that generates powers during the game and is neither of the two quoted methods. So your statement is incorrect.

I think there was an actual issue with Scrolls of Magnus allowing you to get Pyschic Focus some how but I can't find the thread.

 DeathReaper wrote:

(AKA out of the powers you get to choose, if you make all of your rolls on the same discipline...).

Not to be that guy but isn't this an assumption?

BRB: "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...."

What makes a Chaos Primaris power not count into "all of his powers"?
It does not specifically say "If every power a Psyker generates is of the same discipline...". If you want to break it down semantically (which you guys have been doing) the BRB does not reward Psychic Focus if one of your psykers powers is not generated (as per the BRB), even if it is in the same discipline.

I do agree with you about generating powers tho. The rules are both stupidly vague and infuriatingly specific (that your non random powers needs to be listed in the Army List Entry) at the same time. I think GW writers take a class or something about writing this way.

Fun fact is that a summoned Herald would have one less power than one taken from the start too

A Level 1 would still have two powers, so it's not that big a deal.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Now, try to prove that there is another way to generate powers, using rules quotes please. (But you will not be able to, as no other ways exist in the rules).

Scrolls of Magnus is a CSM artifact that generates powers during the game and is neither of the two quoted methods. So your statement is incorrect.

Context Mate, in the rules is clearly referencing the BRB

Of course codex will trump rulebook when there is a conflict...

Oh so we are suppose to infer context of rules now and not when it is convenient? Cause the obvious whole context of that is that you do not in fact recieve a Psychic Focus if you get Chaos Focus.