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Hollismason wrote:
Oh so we are suppose to infer context of rules now and not when it is convenient for you personally.

What are you talking about, I was responding to Rig about how my post, when I said [Now, try to prove that there is another way to generate powers, using rules quotes please. (But you will not be able to, as no other ways exist in the rules).]

I was referring to the Rules in the BRB in that post.

The Context of my post was in regards to the BRB not any Codexes...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Now, try to prove that there is another way to generate powers, using rules quotes please. (But you will not be able to, as no other ways exist in the rules).

Scrolls of Magnus is a CSM artifact that generates powers during the game and is neither of the two quoted methods. So your statement is incorrect.

Context Mate, in the rules is clearly referencing the BRB

Of course codex will trump rulebook when there is a conflict...

 DeathReaper wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Psychic focus says you lose it if you know any other powers during the course of the game, they auto know their god powers as such as can never get psychic focus and chaos focus.

Except you do not gain any powers from any other disciplines during the course of the game, you gain the Chaos Psychic Focus before the game starts.

Again, incorrect. Your context from your first few posts has been, essentially, "ever". And the statement I just quoted is demonstrably incorrect - You can gain powers from other disciplines during the course of the game, so assumptions based on that cannot be valid.

The whole time I have been talking about the rules in the BRB. Never once have I mentioned codex Mate.

The point is that arguments have to take into account all rules, not just some.

When taking all rules into account your statements are demonstrably incorrect and so basing an argument off of them is incorrect.

Breng77 wrote:
I'm not sure if this has come up (as I read most of the thread, but I may have missed it.) But are people arguing that a Daemon unit created in game doesn't get Psychic focus (as it gains Chaos Psychic focus "during the game") but one purchased in your army list does get both?

This may be RAW, but I would say that making them exclusive is a cleaner rule.

After reading this whole thread, I believe that Breng has hit an important part. By the arguments presented by the side in favor having both primaris powers, the newly summoned unit would not receive it. This is because it has "gained a psychic power during the game" that was not from the specific tree. So you would have a case were the two exactly identical units have a the exact same rules applied to them in a different manner. One would get the extra power simply from the fact that it was on the army list before the game.

This doesn't make sense to me and firmly puts me in the camp that you would lose your power. I happen to agree with the fact that gaining a psychic power from the special "mark of/deamon" rule is in fact "generating" a power. I believe this because it is all under the rules section of "generating psychic powers" and not under it's own special rule section that is exclusive of this whole process. I know my opinion won't sway either side of this argument but I thought that I may as well put it out there.

A distinction to be made while "gaining a psychic power during the course of the game" and not "during the game"..

The entire course of a game is in fact before the game actually starts and afterwards.


‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’

During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers . These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.


Psychic Powers are generated before the army deploys but after the game has started hence the statement beginning of the game. A the course is from the beginning to the end. It makes a clear distinction of if you gain psychic powers for any reason.

At any time during the game you gain a psychic power, you lose Psychic Focus. It is quiet clear when the beginning of the game is and it's before you deploy, it's still during the game though.

That's a important distinction to make.


I think irrevocably you can say that with all evidence presented you do not in fact gain Psychic Focus if you have Chaos Focus. So yeah that's that then.

Hollismason wrote:
A distinction to be made while "gaining a psychic power during the course of the game" and not "during the game"..

The entire course of a game is in fact before the game actually starts and afterwards.


‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’

During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers . These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.


Psychic Powers are generated before the army deploys but after the game has started hence the statement beginning of the game. A the course is from the beginning to the end. It makes a clear distinction of if you gain psychic powers for any reason.

At any time during the game you gain a psychic power, you lose Psychic Focus. It is quiet clear when the beginning of the game is and it's before you deploy, it's still during the game though.

That's a important distinction to make.


I think irrevocably you can say that with all evidence presented you do not in fact gain Psychic Focus if you have Chaos Focus. So yeah that's that then.

And the rules I have posted prove that the above is incorrect, So your arguments have no actual rules backing. So yeah that's that then.

Really show me. Cause it literally says if a psyker gains a power during the course of the game they lose psychic focus. I literally just posted the rules on why and quoted the rulebook. Show me how the statement gains a psychic power during the course of the game does not apply to Chaos Focus and is false.

They are gaining a psychic power through Chaos Focus, there fore they lose the psychic power because during the course of the game they've gained a psychic power that's not the same discipline that they've used to gain Psychic Focus, that's not a one time thing. That's a continual rule that the Psyker has, it doesn't go away after the beginning of the game. They always have that rule through out the game.

Argue with me that that statement isn't true.

You are just wrong , give it up dude. There's no way to say " I get Chaos Focus and Psychic Focus" no matter how much you twist and turn and approach the rules from a illogical standpoint. It's just not happening.

The arguments over. You lost, move on to the next crazy thing you want to talk about that you can do and actually can't.

You're just wrong, deal with that emotionally or however you have to.

Jusr barging in to say that i don't see the fuse about those "Demon factory" gak, if you don't have a list build around it is useless.

last night even with 7 WC dices and the reroll from the familliar i was unable to summon a single Demon, over three turns.

Its not worth the 200pts for a CS sorceror, next time i will use a Technomancer to repair my freakin Mauler that gets immobilised each freakin time.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Jusr barging in to say that i don't see the fuse about those "Demon factory" gak, if you don't have a list build around it is useless.

last night even with 7 WC dices and the reroll from the familliar i was unable to summon a single Demon, over three turns.

Its not worth the 200pts for a CS sorceror, next time i will use a Technomancer to repair my freakin Mauler that gets immobilised each freakin time.

It's not really a tactic for Chaos Space Marines.
They lack the volume of Psykers and warp charge generating units.
And they still peril on any double.

Hollismason wrote:
Really show me. Cause it literally says if a psyker gains a power during the course of the game they lose psychic focus. I literally just posted the rules on why and quoted the rulebook. Show me how the statement gains a psychic power during the course of the game does not apply to Chaos Focus and is false.

I have shown you the rules, you refuse to accept what is printed in the BRB.

it does literally say that if a psyker gains a power during the course of the game they lose psychic focus. Not that it says during the game, not before the game starts... CPF is gained before the game starts. so Psychic Focus is not lost smply by gaining CPF before the game starts.

They are gaining a psychic power through Chaos Focus,

True!

there fore they lose the psychic power because during the course of the game they've gained a psychic power that's not the same discipline that they've used to gain Psychic Focus, that's not a one time thing.

False. they do not gain the power during the game, they gain it before the game starts.

That's a continual rule that the Psyker has, it doesn't go away after the beginning of the game. They always have that rule through out the game.

No, They have not gained that psychic power during the game, which of course is what the actual rule says in order to lose Psychic Focus...

a Psyker can not gain a power more than once. It does not matter if they HAVE the power during the game, as long as they do not GAIN the power during the game, the rule that says [if a psyker gains a power during the course of the game...] is not relevant because, of course, the psyker DID NOT gain the power during the course of the game...

Argue with me that that statement isn't true.

You are just wrong , give it up dude. There's no way to say " I get Chaos Focus and Psychic Focus" no matter how much you twist and turn and approach the rules from a illogical standpoint. It's just not happening.

Incorrect, your arguments fail to cite rules. Mine cite rules, it is not I that does not have rules backing...

The arguments over.

It is, since you can not cite any rules to the contrary.

You lost, move on to the next crazy thing you want to talk about that you can do and actually can't.

What? are you insinuating something?

You're just wrong, deal with that emotionally or however you have to.

1) Please follow dakka's rules.

2) your arguments are the incorrect arguments as you have no actual rules backing.

3) it seems we are done, you do not follow the tenets of YMDC, you do not back up your statements with any actual rules that actually support those statements, your arguments are flimsy at best, but they really do not hold water.

I've already stated multiple times why it does not in fact work along with the rules why it does not. You refuse to acknowledge or at least apply any modicum of logic or intelligence and responses have just been blatantly ignorant in acknowledging even basic rudimentary logic to anything I have stated or referenced.

During the Course of the game does not mean "Just during game turns" it literally states during the game, before the game begins means before you deploy your armies, not before you get to the actual gaming store and ever consider playing.

The entire course of the game is beginning to end. At any time you gain a psychic power you lose psychic focus.

Chaos Focus is a special ability that now applies to anyone that has a Mark and is a Psyker and gives them a Psychic Ability of their god.

This does not go away and is continual through the game. They are gaining a ability through out the game just like Psychic Focus. Psychic Focus and Chaos focus are special abilities that give access to a power through out the game.

They are gaining a psychic power.


You have no rules basis that Chaos Focus goes away during the game, as it does not neither does Psychic Focus. You can't lose Chaos Focus as you can Psychic Focus.


Anyway you try and put it. You lose the power due to gaining one from Chaos Focus.

That's not to even start on the "Chaos Focus doesn't generate a power" argument that you feel is true which isn't in fact true.

Here's everything you ignore

1. Psychic Powers are generated before the game begins. You insist that this isn't when you generate powers for Chaos Focus. This is mentioned in literally two places in the book as I've pointed out.

2. Psychic Focus is lost whenever you gain a power through out the entire course of the game. You claim that you "magically gain" Chaos Focus, then chaos Focus "disappears" after it has not in fact generated a power.

3. There are only two methods for generating psychic powers, which we've proven to be untrue.

Yes, if you completely ignore actual statements from the book along with not approaching the rules with any intelligence or basic rudimentary logic, you can justify any statement.

Hollismason wrote:
I've already stated multiple times why it does not in fact work along with the rules why it does not.

Those rules quotes do not say what you think they say.

Bottom line, RAW a daemon of X can have Chaos Psychic Focus, and Psychic focus.

I have shown rules support and there is nothing you have posted that goes against this rules support.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, so you dont have any rules to submit, just hyperbole, and the same assertion you have made throughout this thread?

Check out the tenets, please provide your rules citation, that explicitly overturns the points made, or concede you are arguing "HYWPI" as you are required to do.

Nos is 100% correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
Anyway you try and put it. You lose the power due to gaining one from Chaos Focus.

You only lose Psychic Focus if you gain the power DURING the game.

Chaos Psychic Focus is not gained during the game.

You do not continually gain the primaris associated with the patron deity, you gain it once, and that time is before the game begins. Please stop saying otherwise, it is 100% incorrect.

So again your arguments fall short.

I've already stated that it specifically says during the course of the game, not during the game.

Chaos Focus is a ability that gives you a Psychic Power through out the game including gaining a power before deployment.

Before the game does not literally mean before you ever start the game in general" but in fact means - before armies deploy".

That is during the course of the game. You are still playing the game and starting the game when you roll for psychic powers. You are engaged in playing the game when you start the game and begin.

They lose psychic focus because during the course of the game they gained an psychic power through Chaos Focus.

It states in multiple places that Psychic Powers are generated, in multiple instances and that those two methods are not the only methods for generating psychic methods but in fact two types of methods that can.


1. Here is your logic , before the game begins means - before the game ever starts. This is a false dichotomy.
It literally states :

‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’

During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.

You have to start the game, in order to begin it just FYI.

Here is what a False Dichotomy means as I don't think you know.
http://www.philosophy-index.com/logic/fallacies/false-dilemma.php


Psychic Focus States

If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power)

You have, you've gained a Psychic Power from Chaos Focus, during the course of a game



Here is why it is generated

Generating Psychic Powers

Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins. This is done openly, so both you and your opponent are aware of the power(s) each Psyker has generated. If your army includes more than one Psyker, you can choose the order in which you generate their powers.

You claim that the following two methods are the only methods, when in actuality they are conditions

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

This does not mean that the only way you generate psychic powers is randomly, in fact your claim that those are two methods fails because it is illogical. If that were a true statement, any Psychic Power other than by that method it would be disallowed because it conflicts with statements that say "automatically known".

These are two conditional methods for generating powers. Not the only method for generating powers.

If you were in fact correct, then any model that did not "randomly generate" a psychic power would not have generated that power as the first sentence does not generate psychic powers.



In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers.

By your own logic this means this is not a generation of a psychic power as it does not use the word generate anywhere in the statement.


You're just patently false , make false statements, ignore basic grammar, any kind of context to the statement, and rudimentary logic , along with ignoring actual statements from the rules in order to reach your conclusion.


I think you will find the following article useful to read and learn.

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logical-fallacies

During the course of the game is the same as during the game. they are synonymous.

As noted n the rules for "owning player, opposing player and controlling player" in the general principles section:


"The controlling player is always the player in current command of that model – there are some special rules which can force models to switch sides during the course of the game."

During the course of the game is the same as after the game starts or during the game.

Since you have no rules support, please follow the tenets and mark that you are arguing "HYWPI" as you are required to do.

The start of the game is still the course of the game.

I've already listed the rules support and rules themselves.

Like are you saying I need to show you in the rules what these words mean within the rulebook, which is not a dictionary?

Wait, do you think that it means during dinner? Like in a actual meal course?

Okay.

During the course of the game. Does not mean during a meal.


4.
the continuous passage or progress through time or a succession of stages: in the course of a year; in the course of the battle.

This is what that means.

I mean if you are unclear on what words mean?

Do you know what game means? Like it means the game, not like wild animals.

It means this definition

3.
a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators.

Not


16.
pertaining to or composed of animals hunted or taken as game or to their flesh.


Like they're not talking about a meal of animals.

Yea, Sorry I am going to have to put you on ignore, you have been constantly rude and also have no rules backing and have not marked your posts "HYWPI" as you are required to do.

Before the game is not during the course of the game.

If it were there would be a way to "force models to switch sides during the course of the game." before the game starts, but this can not happen so during the course of the game is after the game starts.

The game does not start until deployment. During the course of the game means when the game is being played. the game has to start before it is being played. That is during the course of the game, sometime after the game starts qualifies for being during the course of the game, before the game starts does not.

Just read through this and wanted to throw in.

CSM cannot benefit from normal focus, and here is why. Page 30 of the Codex states that a marked psyker must Generate 1 of it's powers from it's patron's table. Page 22 of the rulebook says to get Psychic focus you must generate all your powers from the say discipline, while Chaos focus does not use the word Generate. So we have 2 ways to look at this;

1. Chaos focus' free power counts as generating a power, thus satisfying the requirement from the Mark of Chaos in the codex, but means you have generated a power from another discipline.
2. Chaos focus' free power does not count as generating a power, thus you must use one of you rolls on the god's table. Which will obviously rule out Psychic Focus.

The codex rule does specifically say Generate, and there is no mention in the FAQ.

Daemons, however, do not need to generate a power from their patron's table so things get a little different.

1. Chaos focus' free power counts as generating a power, thus you do not get psychic focus.
or
2. Chaos focus' free power does not count as generating a power, thus you can benefit from psychic focus.

Daemons will need an FAQ to specify which is true, as will CSM so you know whether or not Chaos focus will satisfy the required generated power from your god's table.

Demerean wrote:
Just read through this and wanted to throw in.

CSM cannot benefit from normal focus, and here is why. Page 30 of the Codex states that a marked psyker must Generate 1 of it's powers from it's patron's table. Page 22 of the rulebook says to get Psychic focus you must generate all your powers from the say discipline, while Chaos focus does not use the word Generate. So we have 2 ways to look at this;

Yes, Chaos Space Marines must generate one from their gods discipline. so CSM can not gain Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic focus. (Or rather they can but it results in a duplicate power, like if they generate all from the Tzeentch table they benefit from Psychic Focus but it does nothing as they already have the primaris from that discipline through Chaos Psychic Focus).

Daemons, however, do not need to generate a power from their patron's table so things get a little different.

1. Chaos focus' free power counts as generating a power, thus you do not get psychic focus.
or
2. Chaos focus' free power does not count as generating a power, thus you can benefit from psychic focus.

Daemons will need an FAQ to specify which is true, as will CSM so you know whether or not Chaos focus will satisfy the required generated power from your god's table.

1) No it does not count as generating a power as power generation happens in one of the two ways the rules say it does and that I have quoted.

2) This is correct.

Daemons of X do not have to generate one from their gods discipline, and the power associated with the Chaos Psychic Focus rule is not generated as there are only two ways to generate powers that are listed in the BRB.

As I have said this is not likely intended, but it currently is RAW.