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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
After reading a superb fan-fic about Incubi (Written by our very own Thor over on the Dark City) it occurred to me, are they the most accomplished fighters? They stick in at Ws 5, which is the highest you rare like to see on non-command units and it means they hit most other CC units on 3's. So fluff-wise, that makes them more skilled then Aspect Warriors who are stuck as Ws 4, as well as more skilled then even Space Marine Honor Guard who are also stuck at Ws 4. They are also Initiative 5, which while standard for Eldar, you have to remember that the Incubi are doing this in 3+ armour (Striking Scorpions do this) carrying a BIG ASS SWORD, so that must count for something. Fluffwise, that makes them faster then Marines, which are already miles faster then humans while being able to keep up with other, less heavily clad Eldar. Equipment wise they have a 3+ armour save, whoop di do your thinking, but that is surprisingly good for Dark Eldar. At any rate, they carry effective armour that doesn't slow them down much. They have 2 attacks base, but i will off set that due to them using a 2 handed sword, but still that makes them effective with a BIG ASS SWORD as a guy with a small sword and a pistol. Weapon wise, i think they have the best non-unique weapon in the game save for the Scorpion Claw. AP 2 at Initiative with + 1 strength is amazing when almost all other AP 2 weapons are unwieldy, so fluffwise that is one of the best weapons in existence.
So were would you put Incubi on the badass scale? Would they be able to beat up a Space Marine or the sort fluffwise?
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Post by: epronovost
Fluff wise, eldar aspect warrior can kill Space Marine on one on one combat. Scorpions and banshee can do it pretty regularly. Of course, the opposite is possible. If you look at it purely fluff wise, Banshees are probably the most deadly close combat unit you can find. Power weapon are much more deadly fluff wise than game wise and their masks paralyse you just long enough to cut you to pieces. Incubis on the other hand have to kill in single combat at least one aspect warrior to integrate their rank so I think they can murder even vangard veterants. Yes they are in my opinion some f the worst thing you can fight in close combat.
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Post by: Mr Morden
Wyches are very sadly badly stated in 40k...
Harlequins are also consumate Warriors - as are Aspect warriors so fluffwise I would say that are amongst the best that the Eldar can field......
An Incubi should be able to best a Astartes with relative ease on a level playing field in close combat, Genestealers versus Incubi would be a good fight.
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Post by: Inky
I always thought they'd be able to utterly murder a SM vet in 1v1 if they got the chance. Mix of huge-ass sword and ridiculous reflexes always made me think of anime style samurai, y'know, jumping all over the place whilst slicing crap up.
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Post by: Archon_Zarbyrn
They are certainly one of the most deadly units a marine can face in close combat, not only are they heavily armored, highly skilled, armed with terrifying weapons on top of being dark eldar. They also have the tormenter helm which seems to work similar to the banshee mask. Ultimately if a marine is forced to face one in close combat he does not stand much of a chance of even surviving let alone winning.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
Incubi are highly skilled martial adepts who devote their lives two two things: Fighting, and vigilance.
Because of their role as bodyguards, the Incubi are actually slightly less fighty than their Craftworld Eldar equivalents, the Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions.
Of course, the game stats don't represent the fact they're multi-class characters, so eh.
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Post by: Ashiraya
 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:They are certainly one of the most deadly units a marine can face in close combat, not only are they heavily armored, highly skilled, armed with terrifying weapons on top of being dark eldar. They also have the tormenter helm which seems to work similar to the banshee mask. Ultimately if a marine is forced to face one in close combat he does not stand much of a chance of even surviving let alone winning.
It depends. The Incubus has the advantage of a good weapon, which gives him an edge if the Marine has just a basic combat knife or chainsword or whatever. He is also faster. The Marine, however, is tougher.
If he is up against a Vanguard Veteran with a power sword or something, you may find that your Incubus will have a significantly more difficult battle on his hands.
I consider it to be something like
Guardian < Kabalite < Aspect Warrior = Tactical Marine (Assuming bolter and chainsword) = Wych < Incubus < Exarch = Klaivex
Fights between Eldar and Space Marines always seemed like lengthy, bloody affairs to me. The Astartes just can't catch the dodgy basterds, and no matter how much the Eldar strikes the plates and joints of the foe, the human just won't die!
For all his superhuman speed, the Astartes still is nowhere near being able to catch the Wych striking his armour ineffectively five times per second.
Or something to that end.
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Post by: Xyptc
Genestealers are near the top of the ascending scale of non-character infantry killyness. Probably not as lethal as a thousands-of-years-of-experience Exarch/Klaivex/Harlequin, but fast and strong enough to make any mistake almost certainly a lethal one.
Plus they are just born that way, no training needed what-so-ever. Which is kind of cool.
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Post by: Sasori
Lychguard and Triarch Praetorians are up there as well.
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Post by: Iron_Captain
The Incubi are probably (fluffwise at least) the deadliest enemies in the universe. I mean, they even forge weapons from the broken soulstones of an Exarch. I don't think there is much who can stand up against an experienced Incubus, let alone a Klaivex or Hierarch. They have what might be the best equipment in the galaxy, thousands of years of the most intense training imaginable, they live and survive in one of the galaxy's most dangerous environments and they have plenty of combat experience against some of the galaxy's most deadly foes. Fluffwise, even an ordinary DE Warrior already is a close match to a Space Marine, and an Incubi is many, many levels above that of a Warrior.  Ashiraya wrote:For all his superhuman speed, the Astartes still is nowhere near being able to catch the Wych striking his armour ineffectively five times per second. Or something to that end.
Astartes armour is really no issue at all for the Eldar, considering that half of them don't even wear helmets 
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Post by: TheCustomLime
And people say Marine fans are bad.
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Post by: epronovost
And people say Marine fans are bad.
A mean jab, but a good one. Yes, incubies are probably amongst the most dangerous thing you can face. But yes honor guards, paladins, lychguard, Triarch pretorians, genestealer, harlequins, tyranid warrior, lictor, banshees, all brands of imperial assassins or a very pist bullgryn with a power maul could give them the fight of their lives.
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Post by: Archon_Zarbyrn
Yes discussing how deadly a unit is in the eldar army is comparable to people thinking their marines are invincible and will always win no matter what. Anyway Incubi are certainly one of the most dangerous units you can face in close combat, but there are multiple other units who are at least as dangerous if not more so. Like aspect warriors the Incubi are highly skilled, disciplined, and very well equipped killers who few can even hope in matching.
Ashiraya
A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine. Only the most experienced and well equipped marine such as a veteran with something like a storm shield would even have a chance of winning a fight with a incubi. Also remember that wyches for example would not just attack the hardest parts of the marine's armor, they aim for vital points like the eye slits or the throat, Jes himself said they are more then capable of killing a marine with a knife.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:
A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine.
Except... You know... No.
In a way I'd almost argue PA is superior to Warsuits. Warsuits are more silent, for sure, but that is entirely irrelevant in a situation like we are discussing. Do you know how the black carapace functions? For a Marine, wearing armour is like wearing nothing at all. No matter how lightweight or skintight Warsuits are, they simply can't match this without similar neural interface technology, which they do not use.
Incubi are deadly, and they would slaughter a Guardsman squad in a few seconds, but they are not that deadly.
The way Klaives increase the wearer's strength is the way a Relic Blade or Big Choppa does. It's simply two-handed. Nothing more esoteric than that. Game mechanics.
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Post by: Archon_Zarbyrn
Ashiraya wrote: Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:
A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine.
Except... You know... No.
In a way I'd almost argue PA is superior to Warsuits. Warsuits are more silent, for sure, but that is entirely irrelevant in a situation like we are discussing. Do you know how the black carapace functions? For a Marine, wearing armour is like wearing nothing at all. No matter how lightweight or skintight Warsuits are, they simply can't match this without similar neural interface technology, which they do not use.
Incubi are deadly, and they would slaughter a Guardsman squad in a few seconds, but they are not that deadly.
The way Klaives increase the wearer's strength is the way a Relic Blade or Big Choppa does. It's simply two-handed. Nothing more esoteric than that. Game mechanics.
You just proved why the Incubi warsuit is superior to power armor ( note I only talking about it terms of combat between the two, not the other functions the power armor has like life support etc.) , it does not need additional equipment or enchantments in order to provide incredible protection without hindering the user. Page 31of the Dark Eldar codex in the Incubi entry states states the process a incubi has to go through to become the killer that he is. First he has to visit one of the shrines were and survive fighting the other aspirants before facing a full fledged incubi in single combat and killing him then taking his armor . He then has to face an aspect warrior from an craftworld and kill them in combat, take and shatter their spirit stone and reforge it into a tormenter before finally becoming a true Incubi. Consider the fact that aspect warriors focus nothing else then perfecting a particularly style of killing it takes a truly skilled individual to best one in single combat. Remember the incubi are incredible killers in a dimensional world literally filled with nothing but the most evil, sadistic killers in the galaxy. When you take in account their skill, tech and weaponry most marines would not stand a chance in close combat. Again a veteran space marine with the proper equipment and a course leaders like a captain can take them on, but it would not be easy.
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Post by: Da Butcha
I think that some people (pro-Incubi and anti-Incubi) are taking this question and running off in their own direction with it.
Saying that the Incubi can defeat the Space Marine in some sort of 'gladiatorial combat' doesn't insult the Incubi, or diminish the Space Marine.
Incubi are probably much superior to Space Marines in melee combat. They have good armor, deadly melee weapons, incredible reflexes, and amazing skill with their weapons.
Space Marines are also trained to use Jump Packs, Bikes, and Heavy Weapons. Marines (after scout training) typically train as a Devastator, before moving into the assault squads, then, once fully trained, move into Tactical squads. It's not reflected in the game, but a Marine would be expected to be able to pick up a Lascannon and use it (or a plasma gun), or drive a Rhino, or use a bike or landspeeder. The marine is expected to be trained and proficient with a wide array of equipment that the model, in one game, isn't allowed to pick up and put down during the game.
The Marine is also expected to be able to fight in void combat (even without a helmet for a limited period of time), underwater (again, even without a helmet), and for long periods without sleep, food, or water. The marine is expected to be able to survive environmental conditions, diseases, and poisons, that would be fatal for most mortals, and to fight on with injuries that would be crippling to most mortals. He's also expected to be able to recover from crippling injuries in hours or days. None of those things are even intended to be represented in a single game on the tabletop. It's not fair to the marine to present the Incubi as 'more badass' because he would win in a one on one melee fight. That's not the only measure of badass.
The Marine (in the fluff) is an insanely well-rounded, cross-trained soldier expected to provide active military service for decades or even centuries. That doesn't mean that a highly skilled, intensely focused melee specialist like an Incubi wouldn't take him apart in a fair fight. I think that the marine would normally endeavor to make sure that the fight wasn't fair (shoot him from over there, lob a grenade at his head, bomb him from orbit). The marine isn't supposed to be a focused melee combatant to the near exclusion of everything else. That's not saying that Incubi are pushovers, either, but that their expected skill set is demanding, but different. It's important to recognize the Incubi as the near-masters of the particular field of martial endeavor that they have chosen. They aren't great 'all-rounders' because they have chosen to devote themselves to mastering a particular aspect of war.
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Post by: Archon_Zarbyrn
Da Butcha wrote:I think that some people (pro-Incubi and anti-Incubi) are taking this question and running off in their own direction with it.
Saying that the Incubi can defeat the Space Marine in some sort of 'gladiatorial combat' doesn't insult the Incubi, or diminish the Space Marine.
Incubi are probably much superior to Space Marines in melee combat. They have good armor, deadly melee weapons, incredible reflexes, and amazing skill with their weapons.
Space Marines are also trained to use Jump Packs, Bikes, and Heavy Weapons. Marines (after scout training) typically train as a Devastator, before moving into the assault squads, then, once fully trained, move into Tactical squads. It's not reflected in the game, but a Marine would be expected to be able to pick up a Lascannon and use it (or a plasma gun), or drive a Rhino, or use a bike or landspeeder. The marine is expected to be trained and proficient with a wide array of equipment that the model, in one game, isn't allowed to pick up and put down during the game.
The Marine is also expected to be able to fight in void combat (even without a helmet for a limited period of time), underwater (again, even without a helmet), and for long periods without sleep, food, or water. The marine is expected to be able to survive environmental conditions, diseases, and poisons, that would be fatal for most mortals, and to fight on with injuries that would be crippling to most mortals. He's also expected to be able to recover from crippling injuries in hours or days. None of those things are even intended to be represented in a single game on the tabletop. It's not fair to the marine to present the Incubi as 'more badass' because he would win in a one on one melee fight. That's not the only measure of badass.
The Marine (in the fluff) is an insanely well-rounded, cross-trained soldier expected to provide active military service for decades or even centuries. That doesn't mean that a highly skilled, intensely focused melee specialist like an Incubi wouldn't take him apart in a fair fight. I think that the marine would normally endeavor to make sure that the fight wasn't fair (shoot him from over there, lob a grenade at his head, bomb him from orbit). The marine isn't supposed to be a focused melee combatant to the near exclusion of everything else. That's not saying that Incubi are pushovers, either, but that their expected skill set is demanding, but different. It's important to recognize the Incubi as the near-masters of the particular field of martial endeavor that they have chosen. They aren't great 'all-rounders' because they have chosen to devote themselves to mastering a particular aspect of war.
Thank you that exactly what I wanted to say, the incubi are horrifying in close combat, but they don't have near the same level versatility that a Space Marine does. Just like in table top if you can't kill it in close combat just shoot it. 
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Post by: Ashiraya
Archon_Zarbyrn wrote: Ashiraya wrote: Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:
A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine.
Except... You know... No.
In a way I'd almost argue PA is superior to Warsuits. Warsuits are more silent, for sure, but that is entirely irrelevant in a situation like we are discussing. Do you know how the black carapace functions? For a Marine, wearing armour is like wearing nothing at all. No matter how lightweight or skintight Warsuits are, they simply can't match this without similar neural interface technology, which they do not use.
Incubi are deadly, and they would slaughter a Guardsman squad in a few seconds, but they are not that deadly.
The way Klaives increase the wearer's strength is the way a Relic Blade or Big Choppa does. It's simply two-handed. Nothing more esoteric than that. Game mechanics.
You just proved why the Incubi warsuit is superior to power armor ( note I only talking about it terms of combat between the two, not the other functions the power armor has like life support etc.) , it does not need additional equipment or enchantments in order to provide incredible protection without hindering the user. Page 31of the Dark Eldar codex in the Incubi entry states states the process a incubi has to go through to become the killer that he is. First he has to visit one of the shrines were and survive fighting the other aspirants before facing a full fledged incubi in single combat and killing him then taking his armor . He then has to face an aspect warrior from an craftworld and kill them in combat, take and shatter their spirit stone and reforge it into a tormenter before finally becoming a true Incubi. Consider the fact that aspect warriors focus nothing else then perfecting a particularly style of killing it takes a truly skilled individual to best one in single combat. Remember the incubi are incredible killers in a dimensional world literally filled with nothing but the most evil, sadistic killers in the galaxy. When you take in account their skill, tech and weaponry most marines would not stand a chance in close combat. Again a veteran space marine with the proper equipment and a course leaders like a captain can take them on, but it would not be easy.
I am not saying the Marine would roflstomp him. The Incubi would probably win, but it would not be a quick kill. He'd in all likelihood win, I give you that, though.
Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:The way Klaives increase the wearer's strength is the way a Relic Blade or Big Choppa does. It's simply two-handed. Nothing more esoteric than that. Game mechanics.
You just proved why the Incubi warsuit is superior to power armor ( note I only talking about it terms of combat between the two, not the other functions the power armor has like life support etc.) , it does not need additional equipment or enchantments in order to provide incredible protection without hindering the user.
Yes, I know what Incubi are. Their armour is still technically inferior in some ways. It may be a marginal difference, but the Warsuit does weigh them down- have you seen it? It is a rather bulky piece of gear by DE standards and since it entirely lacks nerve-motivated muscle-fibers it does hinder them unlike PA, which literally does not hinder a Marine at all. Zero.
Space Marines are really good at defensive melee, keep that in mind.
At this point we are basically debating preferred interpretations of the canon, though, which makes the entire debate rather moot. Let's return to the topic, aye?
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:
Yes discussing how deadly a unit is in the eldar army is comparable to people thinking their marines are invincible and will always win no matter what. Anyway Incubi are certainly one of the most dangerous units you can face in close combat, but there are multiple other units who are at least as dangerous if not more so. Like aspect warriors the Incubi are highly skilled, disciplined, and very well equipped killers who few can even hope in matching.
Ashiraya
A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine. Only the most experienced and well equipped marine such as a veteran with something like a storm shield would even have a chance of winning a fight with a incubi. Also remember that wyches for example would not just attack the hardest parts of the marine's armor, they aim for vital points like the eye slits or the throat, Jes himself said they are more then capable of killing a marine with a knife.
To use a tired meme.
>Says discussion is different from Marine fans declaring their chosen men are the best.
>Details how their chosen men are the best.
I do agree with you, though. I'm just ribbing you Space Elf fans.
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Post by: Steel Angel
Tsk tsk I'd bet on a Death company trooper over a incubi
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Post by: Rautakanki
No, I imagine Eversor Assassins are the most dangerous close quarters killers as individuals.
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Post by: Bran Dawri
Harlequin Solitaires.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
As far as stats are concerned, 180 points of Daemonettes (a troop choice, mind you) will brutally sodomize 220 points of Incubi on the charge, and would still kill them if they were charged instead, albeit while taking much higher casualties in return.
I don't blame Incubi for that though, as Slaaneshi daemons are tailor-made to slaughter MEQ.
From a fluff perspective, Incubi are certified badasses. Badass enough to casually son Space Marines? Probably not, but an Incubi would certainly give a Marine a run for its money, if not outright win.
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Post by: Otto Weston
Archon_Zarbyrn wrote: Ashiraya wrote: Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:
A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine.
Except... You know... No.
In a way I'd almost argue PA is superior to Warsuits. Warsuits are more silent, for sure, but that is entirely irrelevant in a situation like we are discussing. Do you know how the black carapace functions? For a Marine, wearing armour is like wearing nothing at all. No matter how lightweight or skintight Warsuits are, they simply can't match this without similar neural interface technology, which they do not use.
Incubi are deadly, and they would slaughter a Guardsman squad in a few seconds, but they are not that deadly.
The way Klaives increase the wearer's strength is the way a Relic Blade or Big Choppa does. It's simply two-handed. Nothing more esoteric than that. Game mechanics.
You just proved why the Incubi warsuit is superior to power armor ( note I only talking about it terms of combat between the two, not the other functions the power armor has like life support etc.) , it does not need additional equipment or enchantments in order to provide incredible protection without hindering the user. Page 31of the Dark Eldar codex in the Incubi entry states states the process a incubi has to go through to become the killer that he is. First he has to visit one of the shrines were and survive fighting the other aspirants before facing a full fledged incubi in single combat and killing him then taking his armor . He then has to face an aspect warrior from an craftworld and kill them in combat, take and shatter their spirit stone and reforge it into a tormenter before finally becoming a true Incubi. Consider the fact that aspect warriors focus nothing else then perfecting a particularly style of killing it takes a truly skilled individual to best one in single combat. Remember the incubi are incredible killers in a dimensional world literally filled with nothing but the most evil, sadistic killers in the galaxy. When you take in account their skill, tech and weaponry most marines would not stand a chance in close combat. Again a veteran space marine with the proper equipment and a course leaders like a captain can take them on, but it would not be easy.
Wait, wait. For a fledgling incubi in training to become a true incubi, he has to kill a true incubi first? So basically, you can never swell the numbers of the Incubi BUT every one killed in combat (not part of the training), means there's one less potential Incubi EVER..... that's kinda stupid imo.
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Post by: koooaei
I doubt they're capable of killing a nurgle plague marine this easilly. Even fluffwise. And they're on par with a regular noizemarine that are totally balls out insane and fearless to boot. If a noize marine carries a power sword, they'll most likely die simultaniously. Thus, noize marine wins out the exchange cause he's much more likely to enjoy dying.
I think that noize marine is at least on par with a kabalite warrior cause he's as fast and skilled as an incubus and even has a luxury of being way tougher.
While a plague marine is surely super-tough but he's relatively slow and it's a bit hard to win a combat when you're beheaded faster than you realize you're fighting allready...even for a plague marine.
You see, incubi are deadly warriors, but they do have phisical limitations. No matter how fast and skilled you are, there are just some things you can't hurt. And there are some other warriors that are as fast and skilled as you are.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Nooooo.
The award for best martial killers would belong to something like Imperial Assassins, Daemonettes, Warp Talons, or Bloodletters. Incubi are certainly better than Astartes (up to a point, aforementioned Warp Talons in my post would sodomize them, as would vanguard veterans), but they certainly aren't the best. But Warp Talons especially would murder the hell out of Incubis thanks to being a lite version of Freddy Kruger that can still teleport you into hell and flay you alive.
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Post by: darkflame182
What about nobz. And meganobz ? Do they stay a chance they slow but strong
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Post by: Wyzilla
Strength means little to nothing when you have the fighting skill of a human child and telegraph your moves like an oncoming freight train.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
They would be easy prey for a Incubi. Perhaps not a Meganob because of their good armor but I don't know what their swords can do. They suffer from being slow which isn't a good trait to have when fighting DEldar. Orks want to shoot them.
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Post by: gpfunk
The kunnin' orks aren't fighting Incubi in one on one combat. Their either dakka-ing the crap out of them or having their boyz back 'em up. So a nob versus an Incubus...he's probably toast. But a nob and a pack of boyz? He's probably got a shot.
Orks are inhumanly strong, but aren't particularly adept at single combat, barring some notable exceptions. Snikrot and Ghazkull spring to mind for different reasons.
Much as I love 'em I have to say they rank on the lower end of 'Martial Killers.' They're brutal, yes. In numbers they wreak savage havoc on enemy lines. They can even grow to enormous size, but orks don't really train. They love a good scrap and seek them out, gaining experience as they fight and kill. An average Nob will never accrue the level of training or expertise that an incubus has in hand to hand combat before he himself is killed.
I'd rank purifiers up there if we're talking about fluff only. Their table top representation is certainly not up to par, but they do have many rigorous trials to complete. And, you know, they're Grey Knights.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Incubi swords are Strength 4 AP 2, so they will shear through Mega Armour like it's not there. So it's really a matter of how many Mega Nobz die before they can strike, because statistically each Incubi does a single wound to T4 no invul models at Initiative 5 and they are 22 points. Nobz have 2 wounds and a fair few attacks at strength stupid AP 2, so if many survive those Incubi are going down.
As for Incubi vs Warp Talons, that is a fight i would gladly take! 5 unmarked Warp Talons costs 160pts, for that i get 7 Incubi! Since you can't charge and deep strike, i get the charge, so 21 attacks hitting on 3's (14) wounding on 4's (7) vs a 5++ (4/5). You are left with 1 Warp Talon left. If you take marks it might be a better fight, for example Slaanesh meand mutual destruction, but if you get Marks i get a Klaivex
On the other hand, while Imperial Assasins are badass, a Sucubus comes in with similar stats, is cheaper, and I am sure would give an Eversor Assasin the fight of his life!
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Post by: Ashiraya
I believe you lost your way, friend. The tactics forum is here. This is the background forum. Easy mistake.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
The fluff is based on the game isn't it? Not the other way around, because the game came first (could be wrong here, but seem to remember Warhammer started on the back of a cereal box), so using the stats given in-game to determine how strong something might be is perfectly reasonable. They GIVE US statistics to compare one unit to another, an Incubi is Ws 5, showing he is more skilled then a Warp Talon. They are Initiative 5, showing they are faster. They are strength 4, showing they can match their toughness. Back ground goes hand in hand with the game sometimes, and while i understand not always, but when we have no fluff to compare the situation to then using the stats given is the best way?
Were is the fault in that logic?
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Post by: Ashiraya
 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:The fluff is based on the game isn't it? Not the other way around, because the game came first (could be wrong here, but seem to remember Warhammer started on the back of a cereal box), so using the stats given in-game to determine how strong something might be is perfectly reasonable. They GIVE US statistics to compare one unit to another, an Incubi is Ws 5, showing he is more skilled then a Warp Talon. They are Initiative 5, showing they are faster. They are strength 4, showing they can match their toughness. Back ground goes hand in hand with the game sometimes, and while i understand not always, but when we have no fluff to compare the situation to then using the stats given is the best way?
Were is the fault in that logic?
Please explain how a naked Imperial Guard Company Commander can eat three times as much Dark Eldar poison as a naked Space Marine.
Please explain. I am waiting.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
There you hit the big one, Space Marines. Some fluff paints them as ridiculously over powered, others show them as ludicrously ineffective on the grand scale of things. And to be fair, the fluff has just as many idiotic moments as the game, Draigo carving a name onto the heart of a DAEMON PRIMARCH being amougst them. As i said, either you can produce Incubi vs Warp Talon, or you can't. If you can't then we use the only thing we have to go on, which is the mechanics. What other option is there other then pure conjecture?
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Post by: pm713
Basing things on the game is stupid. For example the game says my fist does as much damage as a gun that can blow off a mans arm with 1 shot. Using lore for logical debate is the only sensible option.
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Post by: Ashiraya
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:There you hit the big one, Space Marines. Some fluff paints them as ridiculously over powered, others show them as ludicrously ineffective on the grand scale of things. And to be fair, the fluff has just as many idiotic moments as the game, Draigo carving a name onto the heart of a DAEMON PRIMARCH being amougst them. As i said, either you can produce Incubi vs Warp Talon, or you can't. If you can't then we use the only thing we have to go on, which is the mechanics. What other option is there other then pure conjecture?
Using the extremely flawed game mechanics is hardly a 'last option'. It is just misleading and an option best not considered at all.
I can go on though. The Company Commander is thrice as resistant to DE poison as an Ork...
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Post by: Wyzilla
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:The fluff is based on the game isn't it? Not the other way around, because the game came first (could be wrong here, but seem to remember Warhammer started on the back of a cereal box), so using the stats given in-game to determine how strong something might be is perfectly reasonable. They GIVE US statistics to compare one unit to another, an Incubi is Ws 5, showing he is more skilled then a Warp Talon. They are Initiative 5, showing they are faster. They are strength 4, showing they can match their toughness. Back ground goes hand in hand with the game sometimes, and while i understand not always, but when we have no fluff to compare the situation to then using the stats given is the best way?
Were is the fault in that logic?
Then please do explain how autoguns do the exact same damage, despite autoguns being a generic term that in W40K could describe everything from 5.56 to 8.25. Owait, that's right, the table top rules are incredibly stupid and it's impossible to apply them to the actual W40K universe due to their simplistic nature and being based on a D6 instead of a D10 or D20.
You'd have to be incredibly stupid to go off TT rules for a picture of what in-universe W40K would be like. The problem is people thinking there is any association at all between the TT and fluff, they're separate entities. Which isn't suprising at all given that the Black Library is a separate division of the parent GW company.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Ok, how would you compare an Incubi to a Warp Talon in a fight to the death situation? I'd give it to the Incubi because he is faster and more skilled and has a weapon that can shear through Power Armour like butter. The Warp Talon on the other hand will invariably kill the Incubi in a protracted fight due to the physicality of a Marine. What would you base your assumption off, due to us having no fluff to base it off? Is there any fluff on Banshee's vs Assault Marines, that might be relevant.
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Post by: pm713
The only time a protracted fight really starts to give a bonus to Astartes is when the fight goes for a ridiculously long time seeing as Incubi can last a fair while as well.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Ashiraya wrote: ALEXisAWESOME wrote:The fluff is based on the game isn't it? Not the other way around, because the game came first (could be wrong here, but seem to remember Warhammer started on the back of a cereal box), so using the stats given in-game to determine how strong something might be is perfectly reasonable. They GIVE US statistics to compare one unit to another, an Incubi is Ws 5, showing he is more skilled then a Warp Talon. They are Initiative 5, showing they are faster. They are strength 4, showing they can match their toughness. Back ground goes hand in hand with the game sometimes, and while i understand not always, but when we have no fluff to compare the situation to then using the stats given is the best way? Were is the fault in that logic?
Please explain how a naked Imperial Guard Company Commander can eat three times as much Dark Eldar poison as a naked Space Marine. Please explain. I am waiting.
Please don't summon Lynata like this.
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Post by: Wyzilla
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Ok, how would you compare an Incubi to a Warp Talon in a fight to the death situation? I'd give it to the Incubi because he is faster and more skilled and has a weapon that can shear through Power Armour like butter. The Warp Talon on the other hand will invariably kill the Incubi in a protracted fight due to the physicality of a Marine. What would you base your assumption off, due to us having no fluff to base it off? Is there any fluff on Banshee's vs Assault Marines, that might be relevant.
Well for one, Astartes have reflexes and speed equal to Eldar, if not superior. Their only problem is lack of maneuverability due to the size of power armor, which they make up for however in raw strength. Fluff-wise the Codex paints Warp Talons as actually among the most fearsome units you could ever face, as they can rip open holes into the warp which they use to teleport behind enemies. They attack by then teleporting right on top of the enemy and presumably either killing them right then and there by materializing their lightning claws inside the enemy or dragging them back into the warp.
Tiss a shame their rules are gak. GW seems to have had a bad streak as of late of making fairly interesting units and giving them gak rules. Or models.
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Post by: Archon_Zarbyrn
 TheCustomLime wrote: Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:
Yes discussing how deadly a unit is in the eldar army is comparable to people thinking their marines are invincible and will always win no matter what. Anyway Incubi are certainly one of the most dangerous units you can face in close combat, but there are multiple other units who are at least as dangerous if not more so. Like aspect warriors the Incubi are highly skilled, disciplined, and very well equipped killers who few can even hope in matching.
Ashiraya
A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine. Only the most experienced and well equipped marine such as a veteran with something like a storm shield would even have a chance of winning a fight with a incubi. Also remember that wyches for example would not just attack the hardest parts of the marine's armor, they aim for vital points like the eye slits or the throat, Jes himself said they are more then capable of killing a marine with a knife.
To use a tired meme.
>Says discussion is different from Marine fans declaring their chosen men are the best.
>Details how their chosen men are the best.
I do agree with you, though. I'm just ribbing you Space Elf fans.
Haha fair enough, but I just love my toy soldiers so much!
Otto Weston
Remember not only can a dead DE be regenerated, but they also take the remains of their dead after the end of a battle. Considering how many Incubi are used as bodyguards there must be lots of shrines with many members. I sure there are ways to make more armor, since the incubi had to start from somewhere.
Wyzilla
Can you show me examples of when space marines are shown to have superior reflexes to eldar? I never came across this myself as from what I have read Eldar have far superior reflexes and speed. Just took a look at the warp talon entry, reminds me a lot of other units like Wraiths and Deathmarks yet have way worse rules.
Regarding if they are the best martial fighters can we count special characters or not? Otherwise Lelith is far better then almost any mortal can ever hope to be.
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Post by: Ashiraya
I suspect Custodes actually win this contest. When your Incubi are fast enough to swat aside las-fire, then I will admit they win. But they don't.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Eisenhorn has swatted las-fire. lol
He's kind of a giga-badass.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
I call bull on Astartes being faster then Eldar, that has never been true. Being equal is even a big push, if anything most authors drastically downgrade how fast an Eldar can move. I read fluff saying that Imperial Vid Catpures of a Dark Eldar raid had to be slowed down x4 to even be able to register the Dark Eldar as shapes rather then blurs, they were also shown to be able to dodge las-fire and kick grenades out of the air (!) back at the thrower.
Dark Eldar, while there psychic abilities have been diminished, they are still Eldar and still psychically empathic (shown by there ability to be pain vampires) so it seems very likely they could 'feel' the tear in the warp before it happened. For example a Dark Eldar in a novel could 'feel' the air ionizing before an explosion and ducked away, i think they could do the same for a Warp Talon. And once that little trick is used up, it's a straight up brawl with the Warp Talon going up against a Faster, More skilled opponent with a better weapon. At least thats how the fluff shows to me.
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Post by: Ashiraya
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:I call bull on Astartes being faster then Eldar, that has never been true. Being equal is even a big push, if anything most authors drastically downgrade how fast an Eldar can move. I read fluff saying that Imperial Vid Catpures of a Dark Eldar raid had to be slowed down x4 to even be able to register the Dark Eldar as shapes rather then blurs, they were also shown to be able to dodge las-fire and kick grenades out of the air (!) back at the thrower.
Dark Eldar, while there psychic abilities have been diminished, they are still Eldar and still psychically empathic (shown by there ability to be pain vampires) so it seems very likely they could 'feel' the tear in the warp before it happened. For example a Dark Eldar in a novel could 'feel' the air ionizing before an explosion and ducked away, i think they could do the same for a Warp Talon. And once that little trick is used up, it's a straight up brawl with the Warp Talon going up against a Faster, More skilled opponent with a better weapon. At least thats how the fluff shows to me.
Lightning Claws are really not bad weapons. He is also stronger and tougher than his foe.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Swatting Lasfire? A nervous system that operates as fast as/faster than the speed of light? I have no words.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Not a bad weapon, but the Klaive is better. Shearing through Terminator Armour and enhancing the strength. Also the ability to be used as a Sword, Spear or Axe, so the Incubi has a lot longer range then the Warp Talon.
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Post by: Ashiraya
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Not a bad weapon, but the Klaive is better. Shearing through Terminator Armour and enhancing the strength. Also the ability to be used as a Sword, Spear or Axe, so the Incubi has a lot longer range then the Warp Talon.
Yes, RAW the Incubi power weapon may be a sword, spear or axe. But since when do we take wacky RAW as fluff?
Also
Because it does in-game, yes. Stop assuming game mechanics mean anything. They don't, and how many absurd examples do I need to give for this to be clear?
As I already said, this is just because it's two handed. Look at comparable two-handed weapons and you see a strength bonus there as well.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Archon_Zarbyrn wrote: TheCustomLime wrote: Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:
Yes discussing how deadly a unit is in the eldar army is comparable to people thinking their marines are invincible and will always win no matter what. Anyway Incubi are certainly one of the most dangerous units you can face in close combat, but there are multiple other units who are at least as dangerous if not more so. Like aspect warriors the Incubi are highly skilled, disciplined, and very well equipped killers who few can even hope in matching.
Ashiraya
A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine. Only the most experienced and well equipped marine such as a veteran with something like a storm shield would even have a chance of winning a fight with a incubi. Also remember that wyches for example would not just attack the hardest parts of the marine's armor, they aim for vital points like the eye slits or the throat, Jes himself said they are more then capable of killing a marine with a knife.
To use a tired meme.
>Says discussion is different from Marine fans declaring their chosen men are the best.
>Details how their chosen men are the best.
I do agree with you, though. I'm just ribbing you Space Elf fans.
Haha fair enough, but I just love my toy soldiers so much!
Otto Weston
Remember not only can a dead DE be regenerated, but they also take the remains of their dead after the end of a battle. Considering how many Incubi are used as bodyguards there must be lots of shrines with many members. I sure there are ways to make more armor, since the incubi had to start from somewhere.
Wyzilla
Can you show me examples of when space marines are shown to have superior reflexes to eldar? I never came across this myself as from what I have read Eldar have far superior reflexes and speed. Just took a look at the warp talon entry, reminds me a lot of other units like Wraiths and Deathmarks yet have way worse rules.
Regarding if they are the best martial fighters can we count special characters or not? Otherwise Lelith is far better then almost any mortal can ever hope to be.
Blood Gorgons immediately jumps to mind.
“As Hepshah struggled to regain his breath, the Chaos Space Marine gripped him firmly by the face, pinning his head with a delicate grip. His other hand darted, whisper quick, tapping him on the temple with a longmace. No more than a light double tap. Hepshah stopped struggling. The dark eldar was no longer recognisable from the neck up. The encounter took just seconds and by the time Hepshah’s body was discovered, Barsabbas was already gone.
Moribeth found Draaz hung from the rafters. She found Fhaisor and Amul Teth reclining behind a bombed out dust buggy. In the open, tossed amongst the debris, was a stove boiler that leaked blood. She did not open the coal hatch, but presumed it to contain the remains of Sabhira. She did not feel fear – only indignity. Snarling, she stalked through the ruins. Occasionally she stopped to crack her whip meaningfully, with a belligerent pop. It was a declaratory snap and most knew to run when they heard it.
‘You can’t hide from me,’ she sang. She had always been the predator. Ever since her young maiden years, Moribeth had accompanied her cousins on slave raids. This was second nature to her. In her free hand, hidden behind her back, was a neural blade gifted to her by her kabal’s mistress. The poison it secreted overloaded the pain nerves in living creatures. She pitied anything that crossed her path.
‘Come out, come out,’ she cooed.
‘Here I am.’ The voice sounded like slabs of rockcrete grinding together. A shadow fell across her. Moribeth turned and her confidence dissipated. She slashed her neural whip low, but the tip snapped listlessly as it connected with ceramite. With a speed that surprised her, the horned warrior slapped the top of her head with his palm. There was a pop as her spine compressed and vertebrae slipped out of joint. Moribeth died still believing herself a predator.
‘Face me!’ Vhaal howled, raising his arms into the air in challenge. A muzzle flashed in the distance. Low and muffled. The bolter’s bark. Vhaal, second son of the kabal, fell unceremoniously through a screen paper window, his feet stiffening awkwardly in the air. He was already dead before he landed, felled by a single shot.
The monkeigh warrior appeared indifferent to his threats. He walked into and through the caprid fence that separated them, splintering the wood with his shins and thighs.
‘Catch me to kill me!’ Sindul spat. He leapt up against the sheer rock wall behind him, limbs splayed against the surface, and began to scarper up the vertical drop. He used his lacerator gloves, dragging the hooked claws of his fists for purchase. He shot up the wall like a rodent, scaling twelve metres in a matter of seconds before bounding backwards into the air. A bolter round missed him as he leapt. He landed behind the monkeigh, slashing his lacerators as he sailed overhead. But the horned warrior was faster than Sindul had estimated. It was a grave error. The monkeigh spun with practiced fluidity, pouncing with all the weight and drive of a quarter tonne primate. Sindul rolled aside, but not fast enough. The monkeigh snagged him with its paw and dragged him to the ground by his ankles. Sindul tried to regain his gyroscopic balance, but his thin ankle was locked in a hammer grip of ceramite.
‘I don’t need to kill you yet,’ growled the Traitor Marine as Sindul thrashed like a hooked fish. Dragging his splinter pistol free from its chest holster, the dark eldar began to fire. The first shot hammered a toxic splinter into heavy chest plate. The monkeigh dodged the second with a little dip of his head.
‘Stop, now.’ With that, the monkeigh backhanded him with steel-bound hands. Sindul’s head snapped violently off to the right and he blacked out.” / Blood Gorgons, p.75 & 76 - **
...
“When Sindul collapsed from exhaustion, Barsabbas simply draped him across one arm. The dark eldar weighed little more than his bolter.” / Blood Gorgons, p.84 - **
The classic bit where Space Marines can drive mortals insane by simply seeing them due to them being impossibly fast.
“Transhuman dread. Aximand had heard iterators talk of the condition. He’d heard descriptions of it from regular Army officers too. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing: taller and broader than a man could ever be, armoured like a demigod. The singularity of purpose was self-evident. An Adeptus Astartes was designed to fight and kill anything that didn’t annihilate it first. If you saw an Adeptus Astartes, you knew you were in trouble. The appearance alone cowed you with fear.
But to see one move. Apparently that was the real thing. Nothing human-shaped should be so fast, so lithe, so powerful, especially not anything in excess of two metres tall and carrying more armour than four normal men could lift. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing, but the moving fact of one was quite another. The psychologists called it transhuman dread. It froze a man, stuck him to the ground, caused his mind to lock up, made him lose control of bladder and bowel. Something huge and warlike gave pause: something huge and warlike and moving with the speed of a striking snake, that was when you knew that gods moved amongst men, and that there existed a scale of strength and speed beyond anything mortal, and that you were about to die and, if you were really lucking, there might be just enough time to piss yourself first.” / Age of Darkness, p.163 - **
Microsecond reaction speeds.
“As the shell seared past, Rangar threw himself flat behind the low pile of rubble trying to make himself as small a target as possible. That had been close, too close. The shot had almost parted his hair. Only his lightning quick reflexes, and the microsecond's warning provided by his superhuman senses had got him out of the way. If he had ducked half a heartbeat later, his head would have been an exploding fountain of gore and bone.” / The Space Wolf Omnibus, p.269 - **
'
Slapping bolts out of the air (which are supersonic for hard targets like space marines).
“Plague Marines shot at him. Those shots that Gammadin did not slap out of the air, he took against his shoulder plates. Shrapnel puffed against him.” / Blood Gorgons, p.159 - **
Oh, and here's a Chaos Astartes going full blown Jedi on an Obliterator by deflecting incoming rounds with his sword, matrix-style dodging between shots, and grabbing rounds out of the air.
“Amakyre dodged backwards and let himself fall from the platform rather than face Veq’s blade, honed from the heart of a star and white-hot to all but Veq himself.
Gunfire erupted again from below. Veq swatted away a score of bullets from the Obliterator and caught three more with his free hand, throwing them back down to the floor of the bridge with a curse. The young one, the most dangerous, fired a well-aimed shot at his temple, but Veq flicked his head to the side and the silenced bolt flittered past him.
Veq took two steps and leapt, dropping through the lattice of bullet trails to land directly in front of the Obliterator whose every weapon was blazing at him from point-blank range. The star-sword cut through the air as Veq met every bullet, sending a sparkling fan of deflected fire in every direction.
The hulking Obliterator reeled as several of its own bullets punched through its biomechanical body. The flesh of one arm became fluid, extruded, and solidified into a blade of bone with gnawing teeth at the cutting edge. Veq ducked the first blow and parried the second, shearing the first blade in two as a barbed whip, tipped with a lamprey-like mouth, lashed from the Obliterator’s other arm. Veq grabbed the lash, wrapped it round his fist, and used it to swing the Obliterator hard into the wall by the doorway.
Armour split and cracked. Corrupted blood spilled. Veq paused to dodge more bolter fire from the other Word Bearers who were falling back through the doorway.” / Daemon Worldgons, p.472 - **
Besides the insanity, I'd put Astartes either being full equals or above Eldar, their only weakness being that while the Black Carapace completely removes awkward moment from power armor by allowing the Astartes to wear it as a second skin, it's still big. Which means it's going to be a lot more constricted than an Incubi when fighting in a small hallway or other tight spaces.
Of course, this doesn't really matter much for the Warp Talon, which by its fluff should just pop up behind you and scream SURPRISE RAPE before dragging you into the materium, no matter who or what you are. Damn shame their rules don't reflect the codex description. Same with half of the Necron units.
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Post by: Jayden63
 Otto Weston wrote: Archon_Zarbyrn wrote: Ashiraya wrote: Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:
A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine.
Except... You know... No.
In a way I'd almost argue PA is superior to Warsuits. Warsuits are more silent, for sure, but that is entirely irrelevant in a situation like we are discussing. Do you know how the black carapace functions? For a Marine, wearing armour is like wearing nothing at all. No matter how lightweight or skintight Warsuits are, they simply can't match this without similar neural interface technology, which they do not use.
Incubi are deadly, and they would slaughter a Guardsman squad in a few seconds, but they are not that deadly.
The way Klaives increase the wearer's strength is the way a Relic Blade or Big Choppa does. It's simply two-handed. Nothing more esoteric than that. Game mechanics.
You just proved why the Incubi warsuit is superior to power armor ( note I only talking about it terms of combat between the two, not the other functions the power armor has like life support etc.) , it does not need additional equipment or enchantments in order to provide incredible protection without hindering the user. Page 31of the Dark Eldar codex in the Incubi entry states states the process a incubi has to go through to become the killer that he is. First he has to visit one of the shrines were and survive fighting the other aspirants before facing a full fledged incubi in single combat and killing him then taking his armor . He then has to face an aspect warrior from an craftworld and kill them in combat, take and shatter their spirit stone and reforge it into a tormenter before finally becoming a true Incubi. Consider the fact that aspect warriors focus nothing else then perfecting a particularly style of killing it takes a truly skilled individual to best one in single combat. Remember the incubi are incredible killers in a dimensional world literally filled with nothing but the most evil, sadistic killers in the galaxy. When you take in account their skill, tech and weaponry most marines would not stand a chance in close combat. Again a veteran space marine with the proper equipment and a course leaders like a captain can take them on, but it would not be easy.
Wait, wait. For a fledgling incubi in training to become a true incubi, he has to kill a true incubi first? So basically, you can never swell the numbers of the Incubi BUT every one killed in combat (not part of the training), means there's one less potential Incubi EVER..... that's kinda stupid imo.
Your forgetting about the Homunculii. As long as a few cells are still alive the destroyed DE can be fully regrown including all their skills, abilities, and memories with no loss of statistics.
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Post by: NauticalKendall
I actually seen a bit in the Dark Eldar codex depicting dark eldar to be so fast that they appear as simply feint blurs until it's too late...
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Post by: Archon_Zarbyrn
NauticalKendall wrote:I actually seen a bit in the Dark Eldar codex depicting dark eldar to be so fast that they appear as simply feint blurs until it's too late...
They are suppose to be quicker then even space marines, but seems Black Library authors made sure to taken even that away from them.
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Post by: Wyzilla
NauticalKendall wrote:I actually seen a bit in the Dark Eldar codex depicting dark eldar to be so fast that they appear as simply feint blurs until it's too late...
Being a blur actually isn't that impressive speed-wise, the human eye is flawed resulting from it being water-based ( IIRC that's the cause of our terrible motion tracking ability). Wave you hand really fast. Congratulations, you're now moving in a blur of motion. It's semi-impressive when an Incubi or Space Marine does it simply due to the feth ton of armor they wear (in the Astartes' case a literal ton) being describe as moving in a blur, but it's not hold the press level. Fast is when Eldar and Space Marines start deflecting supersonic shells out of the air or even catching them.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
TheCustomLime wrote:Swatting Lasfire? A nervous system that operates as fast as/faster than the speed of light? I have no words.
Actually, as with most sword techiques, Eisenhorn's laser-deflection is less a matter of sheer speed, and more a matter of perfect timing.
Eisenhorn is, after all, a Jedi - and uses his force psychic powers in all kinds of cheating ways.
Anyway, if you want to talk about 'insanely fast people', Ephrael Stern, a baseline human in terms of physical capabilities (her daemonifuge powers only affect the warp) survived for weeks in a Dark Eldar fighting pit, and was shown punching out Succubi on the page.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
 Furyou Miko wrote:TheCustomLime wrote:Swatting Lasfire? A nervous system that operates as fast as/faster than the speed of light? I have no words.
Actually, as with most sword techiques, Eisenhorn's laser-deflection is less a matter of sheer speed, and more a matter of perfect timing.
Eisenhorn is, after all, a Jedi - and uses his force psychic powers in all kinds of cheating ways.
Anyway, if you want to talk about 'insanely fast people', Ephrael Stern, a baseline human in terms of physical capabilities (her daemonifuge powers only affect the warp) survived for weeks in a Dark Eldar fighting pit, and was shown punching out Succubi on the page.
Here is the thing about Lasers: They move at the speed of light. For you to intercept them your nervous system would have to work faster than the speed of light which is absurd. Even if he saw where the schlub was shooting at he would still not be able to catch the Laser beam because by the time his brain registered that it fired or gave the order to his arm to swing that laser bolt is long gone.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
TheCustomLime wrote:
Here is the thing about Lasers: They move at the speed of light. For you to intercept them your nervous system would have to work faster than the speed of light which is absurd. Even if he saw where the schlub was shooting at he would still not be able to catch the Laser beam because by the time his brain registered that it fired or gave the order to his arm to swing that laser bolt is long gone.
OK. Order of operations for Eisenhorn deflecting a laser.
1: Eisenhorn's Spider Sense warns him that someone is going to shoot him.
2: Eisenhorn starts to move his sword in a sweeping motion, putting it in the path of each predicted laser.
3: The enemy pulls the trigger, sending several shots, which all move at the speed of light.
4: Eisenhorn's sword is in the right place and the shots deflect off it.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Furyou Miko wrote: TheCustomLime wrote:
Here is the thing about Lasers: They move at the speed of light. For you to intercept them your nervous system would have to work faster than the speed of light which is absurd. Even if he saw where the schlub was shooting at he would still not be able to catch the Laser beam because by the time his brain registered that it fired or gave the order to his arm to swing that laser bolt is long gone.
OK. Order of operations for Eisenhorn deflecting a laser.
1: Eisenhorn's Spider Sense warns him that someone is going to shoot him.
2: Eisenhorn starts to move his sword in a sweeping motion, putting it in the path of each predicted laser.
3: The enemy pulls the trigger, sending several shots, which all move at the speed of light.
4: Eisenhorn's sword is in the right place and the shots deflect off it.
Yeah, I just thought of that and the problem with it is that you're guessing. If you're good at guessing then this is viable but you aren't swatting Las shots so much as putting yourself in the path of where the shooter is going to shoot.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
For you or I, it's guessing. For Eisenhorn, its literal combat precognition, no guesswork involved.
The problem with your problem is that it doesn't matter - even if its just a guess, it works!
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Post by: TheRedWingArmada
Khorne Berzerkers... or pretty much ANY Chaos Space Marine. Why? Because victory means different things to different people. In the case of Chaos Marines? If I kill you, I win. Doesn't matter if you kill me too.
Jus sayin...
And if we're gonna talk tops, then Kharne the Betrayer gets in there against w/e else is left. Probably getting off track, but yeah, there is that.
And speaking of Warp Talons v. Incubi, Fear? So hitting on 6's unless they're fearless, and Warp Talons get their Daemon saves. >D + the potential (albeit garbage) for Blind could also screw up that charging squad of Incubi. But still Daemons if we're talking about fluffy hypotheticals.
Chaos = Everyones worst nightmare.
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Post by: Nightwolf829
Warhammer 40k lore consistency is garbage. Whether or not the Eldar or Marine would come out on top speed-wise varies quite a bit from author to author. Typically Eldar are portrayed as being faster (with deviations as quoted earlier), but are also depicted as being as fragile as a human being. This is really fine. So an Incubi beats a marine in close quarters combat? Allow the Eldar their due. Marines have enough advantages as is.
That said. I am not sure why marine players -want- their marines to be faster fluff-wise (as well as stronger, more well rounded, tougher, etc). Isn't being the best at everything really boring? Doesn't it degrade their victories by making them assured? This seems silly. Everyone should get there day in the sun.
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Post by: Ignatius
This entire thread just reminds me of a 40k version of Spike's Deadliest Warrior. So that's how I'll look at it.
To me, Incubi measure up at least on par with other dedicated CC units and marines of many of the reasons mentioned here. A Klaivex on the other hand, is a pure bad mother. They are a heck of a lot better than even the Incubi and probably wouldn't have a problem killing marines.
As I said, if this was Deadliest Warrior I'd put Incubi at about 55% wins and Warp Talons at 45% simply for their speed and weapon combination.
I don't think it's fair to write off the Klaive like has been done. While the fact that it is AP 2 really doesn't mean much about killing terminators, it doesn't have +1 strength because they just feel like giving it to it. As much as it may seem like the game and fluff have no similarity, the strength increase is there for a reason.
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Post by: Wyzilla
 Ignatius wrote:This entire thread just reminds me of a 40k version of Spike's Deadliest Warrior. So that's how I'll look at it.
To me, Incubi measure up at least on par with other dedicated CC units and marines of many of the reasons mentioned here. A Klaivex on the other hand, is a pure bad mother. They are a heck of a lot better than even the Incubi and probably wouldn't have a problem killing marines.
As I said, it this was Deadliest Warrior I'd put Incubi at about 55% wins and Warp Talons at 45% simply for their speed and weapon combination.
I don't think it's fair to write off the Klaive like has been done. While the fact that it is AP 2 really doesn't mean much about killing terminators, it doesn't have +1 strength because they just feel like giving it to it. As much as it may seem like the game and fluff have no similarity, the strength increase is there for a reason.
Warp Talons simply teleport right on top of you and either kill you there or drag you back into the Warp. There is no fight. It's like trying to beat an Eldar Warp Spider in a shootout, it doesn't work. You just die.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
 Wyzilla wrote:
Warp Talons simply teleport right on top of you and either kill you there or drag you back into the Warp. There is no fight. It's like trying to beat an Eldar Warp Spider in a shootout, it doesn't work. You just die.
Or burn to death horribly because you think a broken bit of wall is going to protect you from three thousand degrees Celsius of Imperial justice.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Furyou Miko wrote:For you or I, it's guessing. For Eisenhorn, its literal combat precognition, no guesswork involved.
The problem with your problem is that it doesn't matter - even if its just a guess, it works!
So he is a 40k jedi! 
I guess whoever who can do that is a master duelist. If you can predict where your opponent will go then you pretty much have him. So lets add people like Eisenhorn to the list.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:They stick in at Ws 5, which is the highest you rare like to see on non-command units and it means they hit most other CC units on 3's. So fluff-wise, that makes them more skilled then Aspect Warriors who are stuck as Ws 4, as well as more skilled then even Space Marine Honor Guard who are also stuck at Ws 4. They are also Initiative 5, which while standard for Eldar, you have to remember that the Incubi are doing this in 3+ armour (Striking Scorpions do this) carrying a BIG ASS SWORD, so that must count for something. Fluffwise, that makes them faster then Marines, which are already miles faster then humans while being able to keep up with other, less heavily clad Eldar. Equipment wise they have a 3+ armour save, whoop di do your thinking, but that is surprisingly good for Dark Eldar. At any rate, they carry effective armour that doesn't slow them down much. They have 2 attacks base, but i will off set that due to them using a 2 handed sword, but still that makes them effective with a BIG ASS SWORD as a guy with a small sword and a pistol. Weapon wise, i think they have the best non-unique weapon in the game save for the Scorpion Claw. AP 2 at Initiative with + 1 strength is amazing when almost all other AP 2 weapons are unwieldy, so fluffwise that is one of the best weapons in existence.
DCA comes with the same WS, a better initiative, the same number of attacks, S4, and a 5+ invulnerable save because they are just that good at avoiding blows. With two power weapons.
So, yeah, Incubi will likely roflstomp about any marine unit, but DCA are even better, and would turn those marines into mincemeat even faster.
Keep in mind that the DCA are only unmodified humans.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
TheCustomLime wrote: Furyou Miko wrote:For you or I, it's guessing. For Eisenhorn, its literal combat precognition, no guesswork involved.
The problem with your problem is that it doesn't matter - even if its just a guess, it works!
So he is a 40k jedi!
I guess whoever who can do that is a master duelist. If you can predict where your opponent will go then you pretty much have him. So lets add people like Eisenhorn to the list.
He absolutely is a 40k Jedi. His favourite use of his psychic powers is actually something he calls The Will - he enhances his voice with amazing powers of suggestion and tells people what he wants them to do. For example, in his very first appearance, he uses it to force two chaos cultists to just stand up out of cover and let him shoot them.
Also, before he had his force sword, he had a power sword. That was an 'older model that, rather than a energy field around a physical blade, projected a beam of pure energy'.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
DCA comes with the same WS, a better initiative, the same number of attacks, S4, and a 5+ invulnerable save because they are just that good at avoiding blows. With two power weapons.
So, yeah, Incubi will likely roflstomp about any marine unit, but DCA are even better, and would turn those marines into mincemeat even faster.
Keep in mind that the DCA are only unmodified humans.
I wouldn't say that they were 'unmodified humans'. Many Death Cults rise amongst Imperial nobility, and they all use performance-enhancing drugs. That S4 I5 comes from somewhere.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Were did you get that from ?
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Post by: Void__Dragon
Furyou Miko wrote:For you or I, it's guessing. For Eisenhorn, its literal combat precognition, no guesswork involved.
The problem with your problem is that it doesn't matter - even if its just a guess, it works!
Eisenhorn has deflected them even after they were fired though.
There's a simpler explanation: Las bolts don't operate like real lasers.
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Post by: PhillyT
Genestealers are faster, stronger, tougher, and better fighters. How can an incubi even be considered? And that is just game stats.
If you don't shoot a gene stealer, you die.
As far as a veteran Marine versus an incubi, Marines train in all aspects of combat. They can't be expected to out fight an incubi in hand to hand. But they can probably put 5 - 10 bolted rounds on him before he even gets within range.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
 Void__Dragon wrote: Furyou Miko wrote:For you or I, it's guessing. For Eisenhorn, its literal combat precognition, no guesswork involved.
The problem with your problem is that it doesn't matter - even if its just a guess, it works!
Eisenhorn has deflected them even after they were fired though.
There's a simpler explanation: Las bolts don't operate like real lasers.
Or the author doesn't understand physics. It's a common issue in Sci-Fi.
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Post by: PhillyT
The shots from las guns aren't really lasers are they? They are described as energy packets fired from the gun, like bolts from Star Wars. They aren't going light speed.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Lexicanum sez:
"The lasgun uses the same basic technology and operates along the same lines as other laser weapons, emitting a beam of focused light. The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion."
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Post by: PhillyT
Which isn't actually what happens when a laser strikes something, nor is it really possible given the technology we know of concerning lasguns.
If you can charge a lasgun battery in a fire, there is no way it can pack enough energy to do a focused laser beam projected over the distances we see with any real power.
Even with the magic of Warhammer technology, we have enough evidence and information to say that the transfer of energy would make that characterization impossible.
BEsides, that is one source. Several novels describe lasguns as firing bolts, not a focused beam.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Advances in battery and laser tech could result in man portable Laser projectors. Also, Sci-fi as a whole has a tendency to make Lasers fire bolts so I would chalk this up to authors not understanding physics unless they make a point of the Lasgun not being an actual Laser projector.
Also, the 6th Ed rule book says it fires "Packets of Laser energy" too.
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Post by: PhillyT
THere isn't enough energy in a wood camp fire to charge a battery enough to do anything but power even a single shot as described in the lexicanium entry. Even with 100% transfer efficiency.
We need enormous generators to produce the laser interdictor weapons that shoot down missiles. Given what we know of the power associated with lasguns, and the fact that the las shots can be seen, they aren't laser beams in the traditional sense since you can't actually see a laser unless it is fired through a medium.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
That is true, yes. A lot of aspects of 40k do not really make much sense when scrutinized closely like the Tyranids or the design of Leman Russ tanks. Or Lasguns, apparently.
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Post by: PhillyT
But it is still fun!
I hate the flashlight concept of lasguns. I like the thought of lasers fired as visible bolts instead. Melta guns on the other hand are described more as traditional lasers with no real visible beam, just a beginning and a ruinous ending.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Genestealer vs an Incubi would indeed be a great fight, but i wouldn't put the ball squarely in the Genestealers court. If anything, it's the In-Game stats of the Genestealers that seem over done by the fluff i've read which seems to run along the lines of : Ciaphias Cain encounters Genestealer! Cain duels with Stealer and doesn't seem to be pressed to hard! Someone guns down Stealer before it gets the upper hand.
I don't think i've read a single piece of fluff that shows them being as deadly as there stats portray, Space Marines seem to handle them well enough even in combat, Las-bolts seem to kill them almost as easy as a Human and if you block one of their attacks the Genestealer loses and arm!
With that in mind, i think an Incubi would win a fight against a Genestealer. They have great armour to protect them from glancing blows (Carapace Armour works to deflect glancing blows, so a War suit will do just fine), they have comparable speed and fighting prowess, also the rather minor thing that the Genestealer needs to be in arms length of you while the Incubi carries a BIG ASS SWORD over half his own height.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Were did you get that from ?
Malleus, by Dan Abnett.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Genestealer vs an Incubi would indeed be a great fight, but i wouldn't put the ball squarely in the Genestealers court. If anything, it's the In-Game stats of the Genestealers that seem over done by the fluff i've read which seems to run along the lines of : Ciaphias Cain encounters Genestealer! Cain duels with Stealer and doesn't seem to be pressed to hard! Someone guns down Stealer before it gets the upper hand.
I don't think i've read a single piece of fluff that shows them being as deadly as there stats portray, Space Marines seem to handle them well enough even in combat, Las-bolts seem to kill them almost as easy as a Human and if you block one of their attacks the Genestealer loses and arm!
With that in mind, i think an Incubi would win a fight against a Genestealer. They have great armour to protect them from glancing blows (Carapace Armour works to deflect glancing blows, so a War suit will do just fine), they have comparable speed and fighting prowess, also the rather minor thing that the Genestealer needs to be in arms length of you while the Incubi carries a BIG ASS SWORD over half his own height.
Space Hulk shows what really happens when Genestealers get into combat with Marines. They murderise them, even Terminators. Heck, in Space Hulk the game, Terminator armour doesn't even provide a saving throw, its that useless.
Ah... 13th Legion has a really epic Genestealer, although I can't remember how it dies. Overloading powerplants I think, they don't really fight it directly.
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Post by: Ashiraya
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Genestealer vs an Incubi would indeed be a great fight, but i wouldn't put the ball squarely in the Genestealers court. If anything, it's the In-Game stats of the Genestealers that seem over done by the fluff i've read which seems to run along the lines of : Ciaphias Cain encounters Genestealer! Cain duels with Stealer and doesn't seem to be pressed to hard! Someone guns down Stealer before it gets the upper hand.
I don't think i've read a single piece of fluff that shows them being as deadly as there stats portray, Space Marines seem to handle them well enough even in combat, Las-bolts seem to kill them almost as easy as a Human and if you block one of their attacks the Genestealer loses and arm!
With that in mind, i think an Incubi would win a fight against a Genestealer. They have great armour to protect them from glancing blows (Carapace Armour works to deflect glancing blows, so a War suit will do just fine), they have comparable speed and fighting prowess, also the rather minor thing that the Genestealer needs to be in arms length of you while the Incubi carries a BIG ASS SWORD over half his own height.
That may have something to do with Cain being Cain.
He is presumably a Living Saint already if a quarter of the stuff he's done is true.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Ashiraya wrote:He is presumably a Living Saint already if a quarter of the stuff he's done is true.
Why would the Ecclesiarchy make him a Living Saint? He is not particularly religious, and neither is his “Hero of the Imperium” alter-ego .
Well, they could make him a Living Saint if he ever save a Shrine world or something, but the Ecclesiarchy being the Ecclesiarchy, we would have heard about it. They like to make big deals out of things  .
And in case that was what you mean, Living Saint is just a title you get for being sanctified while still alive. It does not give you superpowers. Cain is just pretty damn good at what he does.
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:
You just proved why the Incubi warsuit is superior to power armor ( note I only talking about it terms of combat between the two, not the other functions the power armor has like life support etc.) , it does not need additional equipment or enchantments in order to provide incredible protection without hindering the user. Page 31of the Dark Eldar codex in the Incubi entry states states the process a incubi has to go through to become the killer that he is. First he has to visit one of the shrines were and survive fighting the other aspirants before facing a full fledged incubi in single combat and killing him then taking his armor . He then has to face an aspect warrior from an craftworld and kill them in combat, take and shatter their spirit stone and reforge it into a tormenter before finally becoming a true Incubi. Consider the fact that aspect warriors focus nothing else then perfecting a particularly style of killing it takes a truly skilled individual to best one in single combat. Remember the incubi are incredible killers in a dimensional world literally filled with nothing but the most evil, sadistic killers in the galaxy. When you take in account their skill, tech and weaponry most marines would not stand a chance in close combat. Again a veteran space marine with the proper equipment and a course leaders like a captain can take them on, but it would not be easy.
By the rationale of the bolded part, wouldn't that mean there was only ever one Incubus, since, you know, they keep killing each other to join up? By this bit o' fluff, Incubus ranks would never increase, and they would never be able to replenish battlefield casualties, so if the fluff were "true", then the Incubi would have died out a long time ago.
I think you should really compare rank versus rank here. An Incubus is so far above the rank and file Dark Eldar, comparing them to a rank and file marine is a bit disingenuous. Better to compare them to veteran marines and their ilk. I dare say in a one-on-one fight, an Assault Terminator (which is closer in rank and function) could very likely destroy an Incubus. I'd compare it to the battle between the Mountain and the Red Vyper. All it takes is one single hit from the terminator, and that Incubus's head is caved in.
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Post by: Ashiraya
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Ashiraya wrote:He is presumably a Living Saint already if a quarter of the stuff he's done is true.
Why would the Ecclesiarchy make him a Living Saint? He is not particularly religious, and neither is his “Hero of the Imperium” alter-ego .
Well, they could make him a Living Saint if he ever save a Shrine world or something, but the Ecclesiarchy being the Ecclesiarchy, we would have heard about it. They like to make big deals out of things .
And in case that was what you mean, Living Saint is just a title you get for being sanctified while still alive. It does not give you superpowers. Cain is just pretty damn good at what he does.
No, as in, he must be one of those flying superpowered people if a quarter of the stuff he has done is true.
Or he's just Master Chief.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Ashiraya wrote:No, as in, he must be one of those flying superpowered people if a quarter of the stuff he has done is true.
 .
He never flied. At least never without the help of a shuttle or a spaceship. He can totally jump super high, though.
He is totally made of awesome, though.
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Post by: Ashiraya
I can but agree, honestly.
You think me bad for liking my spuhhs mohriins big and stronk?
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Post by: Mr Morden
He is also the (extremely useful) pawn (or perhaps Knight) of a Inquisitior.
In fact many of his many women are not only equally capable but often one step ahead of him.............
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Post by: Pendix
Wyzilla wrote: You'd have to be incredibly stupid to go off TT rules for a picture of what in-universe W40K would be like. The problem is people thinking there is any association at all between the TT and fluff, they're separate entities. Which isn't suprising at all given that the Black Library is a separate division of the parent GW company.
I completely reject your complete rejection of the game statistics as useful in lore discussions.
Sure, application of such statistics needs to be done judiciously, with full acknowledgment of just what the tt game is meant to 'simulate', it's coarse level of granulisation, and the limitations necessitated by making a 'balanced' game, but, at the end of the day, the tt game is, at least, natively more consistent than other sources. And it doesn't suffer from author fiat, poetic licence or even basic interpretation/misinterpretation.
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Post by: Iron_Captain
Wyzilla wrote:Nooooo.
The award for best martial killers would belong to something like Imperial Assassins, Daemonettes, Warp Talons, or Bloodletters. Incubi are certainly better than Astartes (up to a point, aforementioned Warp Talons in my post would sodomize them, as would vanguard veterans), but they certainly aren't the best. But Warp Talons especially would murder the hell out of Incubis thanks to being a lite version of Freddy Kruger that can still teleport you into hell and flay you alive.
I highly doubt Imperial Assasins would be able to to defeat an Incubi. The Incubi has the advantage of better equipment and is likely to have more experience and a few millennia of training, seeing that powerful DE are virtually immortal. Warp Talons would be nasty because of their Warp-related toys. Deamons are hard to judge because as creatures of the Warp they do not really adhere to 'normal' rules like training, equipment and experience.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Ashiraya wrote:You think me bad for liking my spuhhs mohriins big and stronk?
Well, there is one big difference between Cain and your space marines. Humor .
A serious, unfunny Cain would not be awesome.
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Post by: Wyzilla
 Iron_Captain wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Nooooo.
The award for best martial killers would belong to something like Imperial Assassins, Daemonettes, Warp Talons, or Bloodletters. Incubi are certainly better than Astartes (up to a point, aforementioned Warp Talons in my post would sodomize them, as would vanguard veterans), but they certainly aren't the best. But Warp Talons especially would murder the hell out of Incubis thanks to being a lite version of Freddy Kruger that can still teleport you into hell and flay you alive.
I highly doubt Imperial Assasins would be able to to defeat an Incubi. The Incubi has the advantage of better equipment and is likely to have more experience and a few millennia of training, seeing that powerful DE are virtually immortal. Warp Talons would be nasty because of their Warp-related toys. Deamons are hard to judge because as creatures of the Warp they do not really adhere to 'normal' rules like training, equipment and experience.
I guess you haven't heard of the Samos Sanction- Imperial Assassins are absolutely nuts and waaay better than Incubi or Astartes. Also, there was the Culexus Assassin in Soul Hunter who would have probably killed Talos had she not been wounded in the crossfire between the Astartes and Eldar boarding parties, the Assassin was also mentioned of being capable of instantly killing a space marine with one melee hit against a target that was in power armor as well. Plus she didn't even need her eyes to fight, just her ears.
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Post by: Ashiraya
It's true. Assassins are absolutely crazy.
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Post by: dan2026
Death Cult Assassins would chop some incubi down to size.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
Death Cult assassins, maybe not. They're good, but they're only Six-Fingered Man good, they're no Inigo Montoya or Dread Pirate Roberts.
Eversors, on the other hand? They're at the absolute peak of human ability. Then they have combat drugs enhancing their bodies far beyond that. Then they have bodysuits that enhance their abilities far beyond that of Power Armour (albeit at the expense of protection).
All of that, combined with training from hell that makes Son Goku of DBZ fame look like a lazy slob.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Furyou Miko wrote:Death Cult assassins, maybe not. They're good, but they're only Six-Fingered Man good, they're no Inigo Montoya or Dread Pirate Roberts.
Eversors, on the other hand? They're at the absolute peak of human ability. Then they have combat drugs enhancing their bodies far beyond that. Then they have bodysuits that enhance their abilities far beyond that of Power Armour (albeit at the expense of protection).
All of that, combined with training from hell that makes Son Goku of DBZ fame look like a lazy slob.
I'm pretty sure Eversors haven't punched planets apart, Goku ain't lazy in the power department, just in actually getting up and fighting. But Imperial Assassins are still absolutely nuts. Vindicares are pretty much Deathstroke in 40K.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
Well, Goku has some other benefits. His training regime isn't really related to his damage output since he's from a comic that is built around toilet humour and silly.
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