I haven't seen constant nerd rage filling every thread constantly about it, which is normally how I get my news about what the community thinks of things in 40k.
Rather than kneejerking and trying to assess the matter as the codex dropped, I wanted to give myself a few months of testing it. I find it lackluster. Points are maneuvered around such that some things got stupidly expensive, while others got a little cheaper. A bunch of new gimmicks added. Half the options of the old codex removed.
I'm a little jaded, as the premise of my army was invalidated with the removal of Al'rahem, but I think I'd rather play in the old codex than this one. Do people honestly like the it? Has it been doing well?
It certainly lost some flavor by losing Al Rahem, Chenkov, Khan, penal legion, and the various artillery pieces. For all the worry over the loss of the medusa, griffon, etc. everyone seems to have gotten over that. Those units were useful, but ultimately redundant.
Veterans and doctrines became much more accessible, we now have much easier access to psykers, commissars, and priests. Scions are a much better choice than storm troopers because they're so much cheaper. Conscripts are dirt cheap and a ton of fun. Wyverns are a pain to use but are extremely undercosted.
There are some scratch-your-head moments, like the complete nerf to Sgt Harker without any drop in points, rough riders completely unchanged, wyrdvanes and primaris psykers with no special options or wargear. It's hard to justify the hellhound now that the eradicator is the same price, and the Devil Dog/Bane Wolf just aren't worth the points. The taurox is the weirdest addition, a 50 point model that costs $50...? Twin-linked autocannon is nice, and free dozer blade, but I already have four chimeras and they do their job just fine.
I'll admit that the army feels a bit more vanilla in this edition, without the characters, penal legions, or the specialist artillery. On the other hand we can now run serious armored companies, and despite what folks say I think all the Leman Russ variants are great choices. I field demolishers every game and never regret it. The LRBT prolly could've used a 10 point drop, but nbd. I expect we'll probably see some data slates or codices along the lines of Militarum Tempestus or the old Catachan codex.
daedalus wrote:Points are maneuvered around such that some things got stupidly expensive,
Other than fliers (which were stupidly cheap), what got stupidly expensive? Everything I've used got cheaper or stayed the same, like most of the codex.
daedalus wrote:while others got a little cheaper.
Or a lot, in the case of russes and HQ advisers of various sorts.
daedalus wrote: Half the options of the old codex removed.
Half? Half?
There were an awful lot of options in the old codex. Penal Legion, Colossus, and Medusa is only half if there were 6 things in the codex before. Most of the loss was in special characters, and not all of them were really played at all (khan and bastonne, for example).
Yes, the loss of al'rahem and to a lesser extent chenkov were real losses, but that's two real losses. Out of nearly 40 units. Meanwhile, they added a new type of ogryn, and tank commanders, and a new transport.
daedalus wrote:I'm a little jaded, as the premise of my army was invalidated with the removal of Al'rahem
If that's your main problem, then keep playing him anyways. If you feel guilty about it, then just add a bunch of points as a premium. I can't imagine that anyone would complain if you spent 100 points on a single guardsman.
In any case, I wouldn't judge the entire codex by just them getting rid of one special character you liked.
It was a bit of a sideways move. Some character was lost but the power level increased a little. Still too many WTF moments in it though. I love how sentinels are viable now.
People didn't complain about the AM codex like they did with the Tyranids codex because it was handled a lot better.
The Tyranid codex went from bad to worse with its new codex, it's only saving grace being the dataslates released thereafter,. Tthe Guard went sideways instead of up or down, losing a bunch of options no one really ever used in a competitive setting anyway and receiving a nerf to the Vandetta, whilst gaining prescience everywhere, better tanks (with tank commands and super-Pask), and cheaper everything.
The new style of Codex since Tyranids and through Orks it seems is to strip them down to very vanilla releases; very cut and dry. Tyranids is still lackluster and lost major ways to play. Imperial Guard lost a ton of flavor (and my favorite special character) but remains good, from my view point. Orks lost a lot of different ways to play and got some really dumb changes (Gaz as a LOW, no invulns in close combat, no FOC tricks, etc.).
Basically assume you're going to get a really bland book and extra spice may come down the road in the form of a $15 ~ $50 add-on.
daedalus wrote:Points are maneuvered around such that some things got stupidly expensive,
Other than fliers (which were stupidly cheap), what got stupidly expensive? Everything I've used got cheaper or stayed the same, like most of the codex.
Chimeras also got a hike. 10 points isn't much, but on something that's a staple to an army, it's adds up quickly. Granted, vets got cheaper, but it hurt mech platoons quite a bit. In an age of "everything" (Space Marines) getting cheaper, it's a little disheartening to see the same list you used to play become too expensive to use at the same point level. I feel like the fact that they're more expensive with dubious improvements makes hybrid even harder to justify than it used to be.
daedalus wrote:while others got a little cheaper.
Or a lot, in the case of russes and HQ advisers of various sorts.
Russes got cheaper, and being a treadhead, it feels weird to say, but I don't feel like they alone carry an army. Unbound armies of nothing but tanks are somewhat fun though.
I suppose, yes, the vendetta was the thing I was tapdancing around actually complaining about. It was too good in 5th, admittedly, but with it not being able to start on the table, I think 170 is too much of a kneejerk, especially with the reduced transport capacity. I think 150 would have been reasonable.
daedalus wrote: Half the options of the old codex removed.
Half? Half?
There were an awful lot of options in the old codex. Penal Legion, Colossus, and Medusa is only half if there were 6 things in the codex before. Most of the loss was in special characters, and not all of them were really played at all (khan and bastonne, for example).
Yes, the loss of al'rahem and to a lesser extent chenkov were real losses, but that's two real losses. Out of nearly 40 units. Meanwhile, they added a new type of ogryn, and tank commanders, and a new transport.
The griffon was removed as well, and the hydra may as well not be in the army anymore. I do exaggerate though. But what of the new things added was actually useful? I mean, there's the mortar tank everyone raves about, but infantry isn't really anything I recall having an issue killing. I see Bulgryn being an interesting shield for foot guard, but can anyone actually afford the points to bring them? Other than that, removing good options and adding dubious ones is not really an improvement. Tempestus are kind of cool, but the fact that you have to take a minimum of two squads of them is annoying, and they don't get their cool special abilities anymore.
daedalus wrote:I'm a little jaded, as the premise of my army was invalidated with the removal of Al'rahem
If that's your main problem, then keep playing him anyways. If you feel guilty about it, then just add a bunch of points as a premium. I can't imagine that anyone would complain if you spent 100 points on a single guardsman.
In any case, I wouldn't judge the entire codex by just them getting rid of one special character you liked.
That's an interesting thought, and I'm sure the guys I play with at my apartment would go for it, but I don't see the idea going far in the league I play in. At any rate, I don't like having one of the major ways I would like to play handcuffed to my opponents whimsy.
I mean, I'm not jumping out there and saying "OMG IG ARE USELESS!". It seems like it's probably as good of a codex as it was before, but I look at the treatment that SM/Tau/Eldar got, and I can't help but feel a little let down. Most of the advisers seem like you really need a foot list to make sense of them, since priests don't make sense inside a vehicle and you can't have psykers bless things inside a vehicle. Mech took a heavy hit in that regard. Also, unless I'm critically misunderstanding the cover rules, you don't really get it unless you're obscured or in ruins. That is, area terrain doesn't really exist anymore, and that was a lot of what we play on. Maybe I need to make more terrain. I feel like foot gunlines got hurt because of that. Some of those complaints are about the rules, not the codex, but since the codex was clearly made with some idea of 7th coming, I feel they should be lumped together.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just made the list I played earlier today per the 5th edition costs, and the 7th edition version is about 70 points cheaper. Not a massive leap, but not terrible either.
The points aren't all of it though. It's just lackluster in options and flavor.
daedalus wrote: I look at the treatment that SM/Tau/Eldar got, and I can't help but feel a little let down.
Oh, come on, did you REALLY want guard to be filled with overpowered cheese? I would much rather get a side-grade than to have to deal with what tau players have to put up with.
I like the new codex a lot. I play full infantry with no armor and the new codex made this build so much better.
1) Orders are beast. With Creed, you have 33.3% chance of getting a 4th order. All re-rollable. Potentially getting 4 units with Ignores Cover (which is the best order IMO, most of the time for gunline shooting).
2) Gunline Vets got 10 point cheaper, and have access to doctrines for a lot less. That means that for 125 pts you get a vet squad with 3 plasma guns, 1 AC and a 3+ cover save behind ADL, that has Ignores Cover almost every turn.
3) 50 Fearless Conscripts for 175 pts? Sign me up. Priests at 25 pts make your 150 pt conscript blob zealot. Or throw a commissar or inquisitor if you want them stubborn instead.
4) Power blobs got the biggest nerf with a 5 pt increase to power axes. But those 25 pts in a 50 man powerblob is easily balanced out with the access to 25 pt priests.
I have to add a "not impressed" vote here. The new things don't make up for the stuff that was removed, the fluff section got shorter, and the best thing that happened was a major nerf to a unit. Sure, the Griffon and characters might not have been the most popular tournament choices, but the Taurox and new Ogryns aren't anything to get excited about either. And the worst part is how random some of the nerfs are. Did plasma pistols, an option that most people already considered too expensive to take in a serious list, really need a cost increase and a limit of one per model? Did GW miss the fact that hardly anyone was using Hydras when they decided to give them a major nerf to go along with the new model? Even if IG win games with the new codex it's just disappointing that we didn't get a better one.
I haven't seen constant nerd rage filling every thread constantly about it, which is normally how I get my news about what the community thinks of things in 40k.
That's because it's not really rage-inspiringly bad. Your title is correct, it's just undewhelming. It wasn't the end of the world like some of the early rumors suggested, but if GW had skipped IG completely and left us with the 5th edition codex for a few more years I don't think many people would have cared. All that really happened is that we got an opportunity to spend another $50 to keep playing.
daedalus wrote: I look at the treatment that SM/Tau/Eldar got, and I can't help but feel a little let down.
Oh, come on, did you REALLY want guard to be filled with overpowered cheese? I would much rather get a side-grade than to have to deal with what tau players have to put up with.
Space Marines are filled with overpowered cheese? wut?
Space Marines got a decent codex in a number of ways - imo substantially better than IG. The addition of chapter tactics is pretty huge for customizing your army and something IG were long asking for to replace the doctrine system. The addition of Black Templars into it also improved the quantity and value. Most choices in the SM 'dex are close to average which is a good thing, the IG 'dex still has poor internal balance, though as mentioned the one standout unit (vendetta) was nerfed roughly appropriately. There's still bad units no one wanting to play competitively will take. The removal of IG stuff was unnecessary and the addition unasked for. The fluff was nothing special, if it was changed much at all.
It wasn't *bad* unlike Tyranids, but it should be *good* to warrant a new codex.
A few posters have covered my thoughts on the book already. Bland is a good word. A combination of losing a bunch of characters, arty units, fluff, and some random changes didn't really cut it for me.
I do miss eviscerators on my priests, especially since they did get better.
I don't know, it just doesn't have any soul when I flip through it or make lists.
I'm just waiting for FW to updates its Armoured Company list for 7th.
I heard the codex was a little bland, and they got rid of the Griffon, that was all the info I needed to not buy it. I like my Griffons too much to not use them.
Aye maybe a little underwealmed. I like a lot of what we got - dirt-cheap russes, cheap veterans cheap priests and psychers, better stormtroopers. But there was no fizz there, no excitement. I was really, really hoping for regimental doctrines in the IG book and we didnd't get them...meh. Hopefully we'll get some supplemental love.
I think they made the book vanilla for a reason just like they did with the regular Space Marine codex. A lot of the flavorful chapters: either have their own codexes or have come out in supplements & I can see the Imperial Guard getting the same treatment. A little bland it may be but I personally think being able to take anywhere between x8 to x12 armor 14 tanks, access to fearless infantry thanks to priests and cheaper veterans and doctrines to be a huge bonus. I personally play with Elysian Drop Troops out of a Forgeworld book so this doesn't affect me as much but from what I've seen the Astra Militarum book is quite strong in this edition.
Making the codex bland in order to up-sell supplements is *not* a good thing, though yes I agree that's been a big part of the problem with codices since they started those shenanigans. Also a big part of why many have stopped buying their books.
gmaleron wrote: I think they made the book vanilla for a reason just like they did with the regular Space Marine codex. A lot of the flavorful chapters: either have their own codexes or have come out in supplements & I can see the Imperial Guard getting the same treatment. A little bland it may be but I personally think being able to take anywhere between x8 to x12 armor 14 tanks, access to fearless infantry thanks to priests and cheaper veterans and doctrines to be a huge bonus. I personally play with Elysian Drop Troops out of a Forgeworld book so this doesn't affect me as much but from what I've seen the Astra Militarum book is quite strong in this edition.
And yet, we have seen no supplements.
Militarum Tempestus can be billed as one or not, depending on how you take it.
However the thing that really underwhelmed me about AM?
They still have not returned Grenadiers Doctrine to have Hellguns as their weapon instead of Lasguns.
I think the AM get ignored somewhat because they had very little that changed between the 5th and 6th book. It is one of the top books out there, likely able to blow Tau off the table if properly fielded.
Blob squads got even better and are virtually unkillable in CC, meaning the army can pound you to bits on the way in, Sabre Turret anything you have flying around (or just use vendetta) and if you try to get in close, blob squads will shoot you full of plasma then assault you or just let you stumble into them and die.
Only things of real concern are the huge point hike on vendetta (necessary really) and the baffling lack of point reduction for leman russ with battle cannon and demolishers (both pretty garbage choices).
So if by underwhelming you mean more of the same plus a little bit better, then yes.
Kanluwen wrote: And yet, we have seen no supplements.
Militarum Tempestus can be billed as one or not, depending on how you take it.
Despite my dislike of the supplements available so far, I've not been moved to buy any of them.
But, the amount of the IG they culled, it's past due for them to be re-released somehow.
I don't even know if I'd buy any of the theoretical supplements they could release to bring back some of the characters/units. I don't want to reward GW for cutting content and re-releasing in a separate book.
I'd consider it if it was a Mordian supplement with a dozen characters/units and dozens of pages of all original, new fluff and artwork. Even then, I probably wouldn't pay what they'd ask for something like that.
Kanluwen wrote: And yet, we have seen no supplements.
Militarum Tempestus can be billed as one or not, depending on how you take it.
Despite my dislike of the supplements available so far, I've not been moved to buy any of them.
But, the amount of the IG they culled, it's past due for them to be re-released somehow.
Was there really that much of value that was culled? I can't find a huge amount that makes me want a supplement.
Given the supplements we've had I'm not sure we really want them tbh. Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion, both of which had what, a warlord table, some new relics and a couple special rules? The SM supplements seemed similar and were for chapters in the SM 'dex already. Supplements would be a golden opportunity to give us something new and great but GW refuses to do it.
If we're going to see supplements, then we're going to see them like Waagh! Ghazghkull.
That means a mandatory Relic table, an optional FOC with special rules, an optional Warlord table, a bunch of Datasheet formations, and new Echoes of War/Altar of War missions.
Because GW could produce actual *good* products instead, as many other companies are able to do. It's not spite, it's the hope that GW will improve if they're forced to. The only way to force GW to improve is to hit them where it hurts - in the profits.
Yonan wrote: Because GW could produce actual *good* products instead, as many other companies are able to do. It's not spite, it's the hope that GW will improve if they're forced to. The only way to force GW to improve is to hit them where it hurts - in the profits.
Yonan wrote: Because GW could produce actual *good* products instead, as many other companies are able to do. It's not spite, it's the hope that GW will improve if they're forced to. The only way to force GW to improve is to hit them where it hurts - in the profits.
What isn't good about the product they produce with AM? They removed the items they don't create models for. That is consistent with the court ruling on the Chapterhouse case, since they cannot protect themselves legally if they cannot honestly claim they produce a product for.
What did they really remove that is so egregious? Most of what was removed is available through Forge World.
I agree with you that you should not buy the books. But have you physically read the books or using other opinions to judge them to be a product for you to buy?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The latest update to the IA books had both an Elysian list and Tallarn rules that cover what you need to make them have a better feel. I think the entire book is a great read and having the rules makes them a better buy.
Same for the Griffon. The IA book that includes it is a great read.
But I understand not everyone can afford the books
Yonan wrote: Because GW could produce actual *good* products instead, as many other companies are able to do. It's not spite, it's the hope that GW will improve if they're forced to. The only way to force GW to improve is to hit them where it hurts - in the profits.
What isn't good about the product they produce with AM? They removed the items they don't create models for. That is consistent with the court ruling on the Chapterhouse case, since they cannot protect themselves legally if they cannot honestly claim they produce a product for.
What did they really remove that is so egregious? Most of what was removed is available through Forge World.
Read this very thread. It explains all of the complaints against the IG dex.
Yonan wrote: Given the supplements we've had I'm not sure we really want them tbh. Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion, both of which had what, a warlord table, some new relics and a couple special rules? The SM supplements seemed similar and were for chapters in the SM 'dex already. Supplements would be a golden opportunity to give us something new and great but GW refuses to do it.
The MT codex doesn't bode well for future supplements. They priced and marketed that thing as a full codex, featuring no unique models or units, and just a couple unique orders.
The money game with supplements isn't new. GW has been selling supplements forever, the difference is that back in 3rd one white dwarf would cost $5 and have experimental rules for Salvar Chem Dogs, White Scars, and Saim Hann. Or they'd put out a $15 Catachan codex or Craftworld Eldar codex. It was easy to drop a few bucks I try out a new army configuration. Sometimes you tried it once and it stunk, other times people loved the rules and used them all the time. Point is, there was constant experimentation and It was cheap to add diversity into the game. But the new system is $50 for what used to be a single chapter approved article in a $5 white dwarf.
tiger g wrote: I agree with you that you should not buy the books. But have you physically read the books or using other opinions to judge them to be a product for you to buy?
The latest update to the IA books had both an Elysian list and Tallarn rules that cover what you need to make them have a better feel. I think the entire book is a great read and having the rules makes them a better buy.
Same for the Griffon. The IA book that includes it is a great read.
But I understand not everyone can afford the books
Forgeworld ist verboten in a lot of places in Australia. Yes I've read all the supplements I mentioned and the IG 'dex. I stand by what I said - the supplements have a new warlord table, some new relics and a couple (as in two) special rules to apply. That's *not* a good product, certainly not for the price.
Forgeworld do a much better job of supplements than GW do though that's for sure, I love reading through FW books.
edit: before my time silo, though I do have the catachan thing (picked up cheap a while ago). It was a much better way of doing things, before GW settled on the charge more for less content model they seem infatuated with now.
I have read the thread. I am asking what is so egregious as to create an uproar?
The removed characters were from lines that no longer have models for sale (unless I am mistaken). Other than Sly, since catachans are still out there. The characters became counts as HQ and champion models.
PhillyT wrote: I have read the thread. I am asking what is so egregious as to create an uproar?
The removed characters were from lines that no longer have models for sale (unless I am mistaken). Other than Sly, since catachans are still out there. The characters became counts as HQ and champion models.
I think it has more to do with GW as a whole, not specifically the IG dex. The dex was just "blah." not bad, but not good. Other dexes though...
Yonan wrote: Because GW could produce actual *good* products instead, as many other companies are able to do. It's not spite, it's the hope that GW will improve if they're forced to. The only way to force GW to improve is to hit them where it hurts - in the profits.
What isn't good about the product they produce with AM?
That comment you replied to was specifically with regards to supplements. Supplements are bad products for the reasons I mentioned.
Supplements are products. Whether they are bad or not is very much dependent upon what is included. That you don't see value in them is nothing but your subjective opinion.
I don't feel they are worth the cost associated with them so I don't buy rule book supplements. That is my choice as a consumer. I am not about to label them bad though. They are non essential supplements after all and I can game perfectly well without them.
I have yet to see a supplement that legitimately supports the notion that GW is removing things from the books with the intent to then repackage them in supplements and screw over the consumer.
Well complaints from Australia do not seem to bother GW. Not sure why FW is not liked in your area but the simple rules for Elysians and Tallarn are not game breakers.
PhillyT wrote: Supplements are products. Whether they are bad or not is very much dependent upon what is included. That you don't see value in them is nothing but your subjective opinion.
I don't feel they are worth the cost associated with them so I don't buy rule book supplements.
When they're a rulebook for a game that adds a couple lines of new rules - you can pretty much say they objectively fail as a rulebook. If all the customers label them as bad, you can pretty much say that they're objectively bad as they don't give the customers what they want.
It is new rules, missions, warlord tables, and formations in some cases. If that isn't enough for you, don't buy them. Enough people are to justify their sale. It is no different than the crazy prices on collector edition or special edition codices. People buy them somewhere!
I am a big fan of options. If GW wants to produce additional rule sets for people with disposable income (which is everyone playing Warhammer) then good for them. If I like it, I'll buy it. If I don't want it, I won't.
PhillyT wrote: Supplements are products. Whether they are bad or not is very much dependent upon what is included. That you don't see value in them is nothing but your subjective opinion.
I don't feel they are worth the cost associated with them so I don't buy rule book supplements.
When they're a rulebook for a game that adds a couple lines of new rules - you can pretty much say they objectively fail as a rulebook. If all the customers label them as bad, you can pretty much say that they're objectively bad as they don't give the customers what they want.
As you are not buying the codexes and supplements but insist the rules are bad is the FLGS you go to allowing you to read the books? Is this so you can make an informed judgement they are bad and tell everyone not to buy them and therefore costing the FLGS that allowed you to read the books to lose sales?
You have a nice axe to grind there mate. I don't play at or buy from a FLGS - GW products are 30%+ more expensive in Australia, hence Australia. I'm the only one at my club that buys any 40k products at all now, everyone else has moved on completely.
PhillyT wrote: It is new rules, missions, warlord tables, and formations in some cases. If that isn't enough for you, don't buy them. Enough people are to justify their sale.
The half yearly report begs to differ with that, and the half-cycle release of 7th ed being a last ditch effort to lift sales for the end of financial year report confirms it. What GW is doing *isn't working*. The players, en masse, are saying "no thanks" to what GW is doing now. --- We're getting a bit distracted from the topic here though. Lets agree to disagree on the quality of supplements and how good they will be if or when they arrive for IG>
Oh come on, are we playing junior investor now? They have had year over year growth from 2011 - 2012 - 2013. You want to try and claim their business model isn't working from a half year report when three annual reports say it is? The time period in question included what products compared to the time period from the previous report?
GIve me a break. How much do you want to bet the second half report will do massive business compared to the last? With the release of AM, Tyranids, Orks, and 7th edition, this half year will destroy the last one which featured Space Marines and what else?
Don't play junior investor Yonan as proof that GW is failing. If their year to year sales have improved ahead of inflation, then the idea that people are abandoning ship due to the recent changes doesn't hold water. It is typical GW bashing. They get blasted form not putting out enough interesting material (5th edition complaint) and they get blasted from throwing out all the interesting material they can muster (7th edition).
The other problem is he speaking as his part of Australia (which the gaming groups are spread) represent what is happening in the entire world. GW is struggling on how to handle this continent and what is happening there is worst than the rest of the world. This is by reading not only on these threads but the significant declines in the continent based on the results reported.
It is quite dim in Australia based also on discussions with some manufacturers of other lines in that part of the world.
The AM codex isn't particularly stellar. The inclusion of more capable psychic support was nice, and if you played an infantry gunline with Leman russ support you're probably stoked. Most other IG army builds got a far-from-necessary hammer.
The book made Orders a lot better and Leman Russ tanks very cheap, but many of the problems with the previous book remain (e.g. RR's are still crap, HH's and variant are still painfully overcosted, etc), and the removal of so many characters and artillery units certainly doesn't help make for varied and capable armies.
Overall, it's a pretty uninspiring book. I've been sticking almost exclusively to the DKoK Assault Brigade and Armored Battlegroup lists for play since the book came out.
And the less said about the Scions book, the better.
I have not tried them yet but why are not rough riders used a little more to capture objectives. Thinking more of ACW advance troops. (would be great to be able to dismount and hold the ground with carbines.)
PhillyT wrote: What other gaming styles did it it nerf other than vendetta transport armies?
Valks got more expensive, Chimeras are both more expensive and less capable (firing point nerf) making both Mechvets and Mechanized Platoons significantly less capable, artillery based armies got hammered (not a problem if FW isn't a problem where you are, but many places/events still have issues with FW), outflanking platoons are gone, etc...
Overall the book seems lackluster versus the 5th edition Codex but also it would be hard to outshine such an amazing Codex. Taking away some options will always irk me but overall I will still play Guard as I ran a mostly mechanized force and this latest rule set has not gimped mechanized forces in any major way.
PhillyT wrote: I have read the thread. I am asking what is so egregious as to create an uproar?
The removed characters were from lines that no longer have models for sale (unless I am mistaken). Other than Sly, since catachans are still out there. The characters became counts as HQ and champion models.
Then why are the rough riders still in the codex , when the only thing that made them work was removed ?
Someone said that IG went sideways , unlike all other army books either making army better or worse. The AM codex seems like a push to make people drop the stuff they used have and buy more models, only it doesn't realy do it very well. There are no serpents, riptides or bikers in the AM codex . And a lot of the good changes didn't stay good for long . Divination got changed and to use it we need 4-5 psykers. The tauox didn't help us be more mobile and agressive on the table , because are still t3 dudes with str 3 weapons and no fearless.
And both of our anti air options were nerfed hard , so now tyranids pew us to death while caping objectives left and right.
I don't know what GW was thinking when making the AM codex, they knew how next edition is going to be like and that with the new mission
objectives slow moving shoting armies won't work. The codex could have been so much better, if there were options to let say take a type of ogryns as troops or make rough riders realy useful. Right now we can only claim the objectives that are near our deployment or pray that the ones further are more then one , only when we play against a slow army.
not gimped mechanized forces in any major way.
because chimeras and vendettas didn't go up in price.
I said major. Like in game ending will never field the model ever major.
Yes points costs have gone up for transports but honestly IG were dirt cheap in everything for a long time, do you really think that was going to continue?
The financial performance of GW is off topic. Also, don't let's talk about people as "junior investors". It is a bit demeaning. If people want to argue about finances it can be done using the actual figures.
My Mech-commander style army got hit with the price incress to the chimera quite hard, granted that was off set by how cheep the crarpace armour is now but my vendetta, the poor bird probably wont take to the table for a bit. As for the hydra...still no intercept, ground fire, made it open top and they took the tracking rule away... they didn't like how good it was.
Flying Toaster wrote: I said major. Like in game ending will never field the model ever major.
Chimeras going up nearly 20% in price and losing major utility for command squads and vets is pretty major.
Yes points costs have gone up for transports but honestly IG were dirt cheap in everything for a long time, do you really think that was going to continue?
Given the massive nerf to vehicle survivability since 5E and major boost that skimmer transports received relative to tracked transports (jink, much farther flat out moves) and coupled with the fact that even more dirt-cheap SM transports didn't change, it certainly didn't seem warranted.
tiger g wrote: So transports are more expensive. Also do they not last longer on the table? And they can score points.
Less fire points is a negative but they also do not explode as much killing the unit inside.
Seems like the increased cost was offset by positives or just give them the positives decrease the costs and then claim the game is unbalanced.
They certainly don't last *anything* near as long as they did in 5th when the last book was released, changes to vehicle survivability between 6th and 7th isn't *that* huge and changes in utility certainly doesn't seem to have applied to anything else.
Ribon Fox wrote: My Mech-commander style army got hit with the price incress to the chimera quite hard, granted that was off set by how cheep the crarpace armour is now but my vendetta, the poor bird probably wont take to the table for a bit. As for the hydra...still no intercept, ground fire, made it open top and they took the tracking rule away... they didn't like how good it was.
Oh christ yeah the poor Hydra. Got smacked with both Open Topped and lost its one useful capability and all it got was a 5pt cut.
I was *very* surprised the Baneblade wasn't included, after the Wraithknight and Riptide I'd have thought for sure they would have thrown the BB in just to hop on the "big kit inclusion" bandwagon.
tiger g wrote: So transports are more expensive. Also do they not last longer on the table? And they can score points.
Not really. Getting glanced to death is just as effective and frequent as it was before. I'm just paying 18% more for the privilege. At this point, I'd be better off with Rhinos.
Less fire points is a negative but they also do not explode as much killing the unit inside.
So they're expensive Rhinos.
Seems like the increased cost was offset by positives or just give them the positives decrease the costs and then claim the game is unbalanced.
The problem is that the positives aren't the things that were an issue. It's like I gave you a bunch of old crap I have in my closet and then charge you for the opportunity.
Did the Vendetta transport capacity made Valkyries more desirable as transports now? I have a Valkyrie still in the box and am thinking I should assemble it as a Valkyrie and not as a Vendetta as I originally planned.
Davor wrote: Who cares what places at a tournament? I mean play for fun, not what is powerful.
After all do you really need to win with plastic toy soldiers?
A codex's worth varies from person to person, and for some people its competitiveness matters more than other aspects.
Its not about needing to win, its about hoping the codex is balanced internally and externally for optimal gaming with everyone without having to either self nerf or take only one or two stronger builds to keep up with your friends, as the case may be.
Don't ostracize people for having a desire to win at a game with defined victory conditions.
Davor wrote: Who cares what places at a tournament? I mean play for fun, not what is powerful.
After all do you really need to win with plastic toy soldiers?
Hockey is just a game. Do you really need to win with wooden sticks? Who cares about... sorry, I have nfi about hockey leagues ; p I hope my point is clear however.
So yes, being competitive is important. Especially if you play in competitions which a lot of players like to do. Or if you enjoy a challenge in general where it's your skill against the other players skill, not who has the best codex. Suggesting that competition isn't important when the game is fundamentally one player competing against another always boggles the mind.
ashikenshin wrote: Did the Vendetta transport capacity made Valkyries more desirable as transports now? I have a Valkyrie still in the box and am thinking I should assemble it as a Valkyrie and not as a Vendetta as I originally planned.
I dont think so, even with extra space there arnt many 10man options that are worth putting up in the air besides being codex:imperium (what would be funny popping out of a flyer?)
-Tank commanders are awsome
-Priests and psykers not taking up slots and buffing every unit beyond their meagre points cost is excellent.
-LRs being reduced heavily in price.
-Wyverns destroying so many infantry.
-Conscript blobs going from meh to wow with just a couple of cheap attached characters.
My regiment is based on a forest world here is the fluff.
Spoiler:
This forest world is not like any other. Trees and vegetation grow very quickly. entire forests will regrow in 4 years. Forest Fires are a very serious danger. one cigarette could cause a forest fire that could span an entire continent. these fires take time to traverse continents so by the time they reach one side of the continent trees on the other have already grown back. The rapid growth of vegetation and continent spanning fires can result in never ending forest fires.
To combat this cities continually cut trees to provide a barrier between themselves and the dangers of forest fires. following in the wake of the fires are farmers, abhumans, and mutants who use the fertilized soil to create crops. These farmers and abhumans supply more than enough food for the planet, so the excess is sent for imperial tithes. Wood and lumber is in no short supply and is shipped off world for the tithes.
Since the entire planet is covered in forests and there is no way to clear them vehicles must be able to maneuver between them. Aircraft are very important to the planet and are the primary source of travel. Aircraft are extensively used by most of the population. whether it be gakky gyro-coptors, prop planes, hot air balloons, or thrust vectored jets. Fires, are put out by aircraft and small teams on the ground that chop down trees ahead of the fire, whilst aircraft drop water on the fires. Commerce and transportation of goods is all done by aircraft so you have lumber and produce being flown all across the world.
With so much aerial activity on this planet the defense force is very well trained in flying and are equipped with vendettas, Valkyries, and thunderbolts to combat any renegade, rogue, or criminal pilots that seek to evade imperial justice.
This world is officially classified as an agri world and is only required to send food, and raw resources such a s lumber. It is not required to send imperial guard regiments. Instead of sending guard regiments they send volunteer groups from the defense force to fight for the imperium. These volunteer groups primarily function as light infantry, and air cavalry regiments. Only veteran pilots and troops of the defense force that have seen many a battle with crazed creatures, fought the fiercest of fires, assaulted hidden heretical hideouts deep in the woods, and shot down the craftiest and deadliest aerial pirates are allowed to join the volunteer groups if they so wish. The status of still being a defense force is both a blessing and a curse. The volunteer groups are allowed to maintain command of their aerial support, but the planet l must supply all of its troops with its own provisions and interstellar transport.
The volunteer veterans of these volunteer groups prefer to sneak up and outflank their enemies through the woods with support from heavy weapons teams, and sentinels whilst Valkyries drop troops behind enemy lines. vendettas provide a double role of taking out enemy fliers, and destroying enemy group targets. The thunderbolt is the primary air superiority fighter of the regiment.
My regiment needs to rely on the outflanking or infiltrate warlord traits to be fluffy and semi effective. Valkyries vendettas and sentinels all take up fast attack choices so i have to take two detachments of guard each with a ccs and 2 squads of veterans. Valkyries are my only choice for transport really. That leaves me with making what is an essentially elysian list when i want to make a list that fits my fluff.
Overall the majority of units got a bit better. Everything that didn't was either by general concensus underpriced in the last codex or was reduced in worth so GW could push the new toys. Then there were Ogryns and variants that were GWs requisite shoulder shrugging unit.
I really wanted to see Ogryn and their kin shine, but it seems GW went out their way from making this unit buildable into something useful. Too expensive to use as bubble wrap and built to small when you want to transport them. As a footslogging unit they're expensive fodder. I think that leaves them only worthwhile as some in cover backfield unit that I can't figure what to do with. Oh and when can their heavy weapon sized guns actually have some worthwhile stats?
Rough Riders need help. Without models I'm actually surprised GW didn't purge them along with the other modeless units.
Leman Russ battle tanks relative to its variants should have been cheaper. The variants seem like a steal comparatively.
aka_mythos wrote: Overall the majority of units got a bit better. Everything that didn't was either by general concensus underpriced in the last codex or was reduced in worth so GW could push the new toys. Then there were Ogryns and variants that were GWs requisite shoulder shrugging unit.
I really wanted to see Ogryn and their kin shine, but it seems GW went out their way from making this unit buildable into something useful. Too expensive to use as bubble wrap and built to small when you want to transport them. As a footslogging unit they're expensive fodder. I think that leaves them only worthwhile as some in cover backfield unit that I can't figure what to do with. Oh and when can their heavy weapon sized guns actually have some worthwhile stats?
Rough Riders need help. Without models I'm actually surprised GW didn't purge them along with the other modeless units.
Leman Russ battle tanks relative to its variants should have been cheaper. The variants seem like a steal comparatively.
Indeed Ogryns running around with las cannons or auto cannons would of been cool
Lemans though i have no clue why demolisher went up to 170 as it seems excessive for no reason. also losing lumbering behemoth kinda sucks. (why ordnance why)
PhillyT wrote: I have read the thread. I am asking what is so egregious as to create an uproar?
The removed characters were from lines that no longer have models for sale (unless I am mistaken). Other than Sly, since catachans are still out there. The characters became counts as HQ and champion models.
Musashi363 wrote: I'm just waiting for the next great supplement: CADIA! That will be a breath of fresh air.
I would buy a Cadian supplement.
I love Cadia and the background surrounding the planet and the Cadian Shock Troops, so it'd be great for me...
Luckily for you, the AM codex is already codex Cadia (hence why its so bland and basic )
If they bring out supplement Cadia I will be more annoyed than usual with GW wasting potential again.
But yes I find the AM codex incredibly boring and unless something changes I will not be buying the next AM codex. I cant even read the book, I have only looked in the rules section and I got it on release day. I used to hate my 5th edition book too, but now I look back at the 5th edition one and wish I liked it while I could haha.
Musashi363 wrote: I'm just waiting for the next great supplement: CADIA! That will be a breath of fresh air.
I would buy a Cadian supplement.
I love Cadia and the background surrounding the planet and the Cadian Shock Troops, so it'd be great for me...
Luckily for you, the AM codex is already codex Cadia (hence why its so bland and basic )
Not actually true. Cadia has no "Stormtroopers", no Ogryn/Bullgryn, and no Rough Riders.
Then you have the fact that depending on which source you read? They have no Commissars. They have training for anyone of Lieutenant rank or higher in how to recognize the taint of the Warp in Psykers, but by and large they don't need that whole "morale upkeep" aspect of Commissars.
And then you have the Kasrkin--the Cadian mixture of Stormtroopers and Grenadiers. They could be used for special missions or as line infantry.
If they bring out supplement Cadia I will be more annoyed than usual with GW wasting potential again.
On the contrary, there is a lot of potential for cool stuff in a Cadian supplement. New formations, new weapons, etc themed specifically around Cadia.
Musashi363 wrote: I'm just waiting for the next great supplement: CADIA! That will be a breath of fresh air.
I would buy a Cadian supplement.
I love Cadia and the background surrounding the planet and the Cadian Shock Troops, so it'd be great for me...
Luckily for you, the AM codex is already codex Cadia (hence why its so bland and basic )
Not actually true. Cadia has no "Stormtroopers", no Ogryn/Bullgryn, and no Rough Riders.
Then you have the fact that depending on which source you read? They have no Commissars. They have training for anyone of Lieutenant rank or higher in how to recognize the taint of the Warp in Psykers, but by and large they don't need that whole "morale upkeep" aspect of Commissars.
And then you have the Kasrkin--the Cadian mixture of Stormtroopers and Grenadiers. They could be used for special missions or as line infantry.
If they bring out supplement Cadia I will be more annoyed than usual with GW wasting potential again.
On the contrary, there is a lot of potential for cool stuff in a Cadian supplement. New formations, new weapons, etc themed specifically around Cadia.
Ummm rough riders, ogryns and commissars are never from home planets... arent they trained or brought from other planets and attached to other regiments? So yes cadians can and do have these attatched to them when needed. Commissars are there for more than moral. They keep tabs and ensure nobody is doing anything shady etc.
The codex is Codex Cadia as it stands with a tiny teeny amount of Catachan thrown in. Codex Cadia would be a horrible waste given that the standard codex already is Codex Cadia.
The sign on the door said "don't feed the trolls".
Anyways, I think the biggest problem here is still one of expectations. The previous new codex added in, what, 18 new units not counting special characters? I think people were expecting this update to be as big as the last one.
Which is silly. That kind of growth is unsustainable. Of course this codex would be much more about tweaking things than throwing a bunch of new toys at us.
Because noting that your basic mechvet squad went from costing 125 points to 125 points is rather nit-picking...
Oh, and...
PhillyT wrote:Blob squads got even better and are virtually unkillable in CC
Lol, since when is T3 Sv5+ unkillable?
Someone should introduce you to some striking scorpions or warrior+DCA henchmen squads or khorne berzerkers sometime.
Musashi363 wrote: I'm just waiting for the next great supplement: CADIA! That will be a breath of fresh air.
I would buy a Cadian supplement.
I love Cadia and the background surrounding the planet and the Cadian Shock Troops, so it'd be great for me...
Luckily for you, the AM codex is already codex Cadia (hence why its so bland and basic )
Not actually true. Cadia has no "Stormtroopers", no Ogryn/Bullgryn, and no Rough Riders.
Then you have the fact that depending on which source you read? They have no Commissars. They have training for anyone of Lieutenant rank or higher in how to recognize the taint of the Warp in Psykers, but by and large they don't need that whole "morale upkeep" aspect of Commissars.
And then you have the Kasrkin--the Cadian mixture of Stormtroopers and Grenadiers. They could be used for special missions or as line infantry.
If they bring out supplement Cadia I will be more annoyed than usual with GW wasting potential again.
On the contrary, there is a lot of potential for cool stuff in a Cadian supplement. New formations, new weapons, etc themed specifically around Cadia.
Ummm rough riders, ogryns and commissars are never from home planets... arent they trained or brought from other planets and attached to other regiments? So yes cadians can and do have these attatched to them when needed. Commissars are there for more than moral. They keep tabs and ensure nobody is doing anything shady etc.
Commissars are there for morale purposes and for rooting out corruption/taint. Considering that they are only really necessary when you don't actually have experience in rooting out or recognizing those kinds of signs(spoiler alert: if you're from a planet like Cadia? It's safe to say you might be able to recognize it without needing a lifelong primer course in a Schola Progenium).
Depending, again, what you read? Commissars are either: A) Primarily attached to regiments from their home world(Remember they're orphans, not children born in space with no home world) or B) Attached to regiments from their home world preferably, but other worlds if not possible.
Ogryn are an iffy thing. They're "never from home planets", but they're assigned as auxiliary units for a large force not on an individual basis. You don't have Ogryn Squads assigned to the Cadian 8225th Interior Guard detachment, but rather they would be assigned en masse to the Cadian Interior Guard and deployed piecemeal from there.
The codex is Codex Cadia as it stands with a tiny teeny amount of Catachan thrown in. Codex Cadia would be a horrible waste given that the standard codex already is Codex Cadia.
Actually it's Codex: Astra Militarum. I understand the confusion though.
I mean if you really want to get into it though, nothing is saying that if they do more supplements that they will be like the "older supplements". Look at Waagh! Ghazghkull. Seriously. Look at it.
That's how a supplement should be done. It gives you a unique force organization chart with special rules just for the FOC and detachment. It also gives you unique formations that represent key parts of signature armies relating to that army. And then you have missions, new relics, etc.
Musashi363 wrote: I'm just waiting for the next great supplement: CADIA! That will be a breath of fresh air.
I would buy a Cadian supplement.
I love Cadia and the background surrounding the planet and the Cadian Shock Troops, so it'd be great for me...
Luckily for you, the AM codex is already codex Cadia (hence why its so bland and basic )
Not actually true. Cadia has no "Stormtroopers", no Ogryn/Bullgryn, and no Rough Riders.
Then you have the fact that depending on which source you read? They have no Commissars. They have training for anyone of Lieutenant rank or higher in how to recognize the taint of the Warp in Psykers, but by and large they don't need that whole "morale upkeep" aspect of Commissars.
And then you have the Kasrkin--the Cadian mixture of Stormtroopers and Grenadiers. They could be used for special missions or as line infantry.
If they bring out supplement Cadia I will be more annoyed than usual with GW wasting potential again.
On the contrary, there is a lot of potential for cool stuff in a Cadian supplement. New formations, new weapons, etc themed specifically around Cadia.
Ummm rough riders, ogryns and commissars are never from home planets... arent they trained or brought from other planets and attached to other regiments? So yes cadians can and do have these attatched to them when needed. Commissars are there for more than moral. They keep tabs and ensure nobody is doing anything shady etc.
Commissars are there for morale purposes and for rooting out corruption/taint. Considering that they are only really necessary when you don't actually have experience in rooting out or recognizing those kinds of signs(spoiler alert: if you're from a planet like Cadia? It's safe to say you might be able to recognize it without needing a lifelong primer course in a Schola Progenium).
Depending, again, what you read? Commissars are either: A) Primarily attached to regiments from their home world(Remember they're orphans, not children born in space with no home world) or B) Attached to regiments from their home world preferably, but other worlds if not possible.
Ogryn are an iffy thing. They're "never from home planets", but they're assigned as auxiliary units for a large force not on an individual basis. You don't have Ogryn Squads assigned to the Cadian 8225th Interior Guard detachment, but rather they would be assigned en masse to the Cadian Interior Guard and deployed piecemeal from there.
The codex is Codex Cadia as it stands with a tiny teeny amount of Catachan thrown in. Codex Cadia would be a horrible waste given that the standard codex already is Codex Cadia.
Actually it's Codex: Astra Militarum. I understand the confusion though.
I mean if you really want to get into it though, nothing is saying that if they do more supplements that they will be like the "older supplements". Look at Waagh! Ghazghkull. Seriously. Look at it.
That's how a supplement should be done. It gives you a unique force organization chart with special rules just for the FOC and detachment. It also gives you unique formations that represent key parts of signature armies relating to that army. And then you have missions, new relics, etc.
Supplements always have a special character. With ALL the cadians in the "AM" codex already, who will they add to codex Cadia part 2? I mean unless they do another bland ork one with less for the same price...
Also I think you need to re read your fluff. I hate the fluff and already I can pick apart some f your arguments. The imperium always assumes you will do something wrong. Thats why commissars are in all regiments. It specifically states commissars are never from the same homeworld as the regiment they are assigned to. That way they dont overlook homeworld tradition.
Rough riders are rarely employed in mass. Like Ogryns they are asigned to whatever regiment needs themn. Can be cadian or ghoochaloochian, doesn't matter.
Tell me, please, how do you think the Cadia part 2 will differ from cadia part 1?
There is a reason the AM codex is cadian, because GW primarily sells cadians. They kept a tiny bit of Catahcan in there to sell the tiny bit of catachan GW sells.
The dudes in the arts don't have purple eyes. So they aren't cadians. If the codex doesn't include cadians as at least 51% of force then it can't be called a cadia codex. Or are we using the Common Wealth tricks where 5 tons of cabbage from Polands turns in to 6 tons of cabbage from UK as long as you mix it up?
It would be possible to make a good Cadian supplement. Kasrkin, Cadian whiteshields, officers, commissars and psykers could all be given customized rules over their generic counterparts as they *are* somewhat different int he fluff. The army could also have custom rules like the iron discipline they had in the 3/4e dex and Eye of Terror supplement. The resistance to (and hatred of) chaos could also be represented. They have definite leanings in weaponry used such as grenade launchers and... autocannons was it? The Cadian fluff is also pretty extensive, though I'm not a fan of just rehashing it. I don't think custom FOCs would be necessary (and I'm not a fan of them as such) but Kasrkin could be shifted to troops somehow easily enough for the odd occasion they may be employed in mass if that happens. Regarding demi humans, they were blocked from taking these in the 3/4e dex when using doctrines, I'm not sure Cadians find them that acceptable... though in the Dawn of War games they happily ran alongside the Ogryns.
I do think that the IG 'dex is a "generic guard" 'dex, and Cadians are sold as both the generic guard and as the best of the best due to training from birth and having great equipment and what not... it's strange. Like with Chaos and Black Legion, it was possible to make the supplement - I just don't think it as good an idea as making one for less well represented armies such as Tanith (gimmie!), Tallarn, Savlars, whatever. I'd include Elysian and DKK but FW does a really good job on them. A better job than GW does tbh.
The reason Cadians are now sold as standard Guard is simply because they sell Cadians. Its just a lazy way of going about it really. I'm just used to the old 3rd edition codex where it was actually codex everything. the art was of regiments that both had and did not have models. Stories of all worlds etc. Now the only thing generic about this codex is the choice of Camo and Carapace on veterans.
But white shields are the conscript unit in that codex. Are karskins even mentioned anymore? Or are they kinda, just gone...?
As to the weapons etc, preferred weapons are different to only being allowed certain weapons. Hence why all the weapon versions where sold on all the regiments. I think that was in the 4th codex for anyone who wanted to make a tradition based army.
If it where up to me, the Generic codex would have a Regiment creator kind of like doctrines that defined what units you take and what things they can and cant have plus a few tweaks etc to make your regiment unique. But as mentioned above I guess GW wants to focus on selling Cadians so that will never happen.
I wonder what the life line on non Cadian regiments is. I sometimes wonder if Cadians will be the standard guard regiment for all worlds over the next decade or so.
Flying Toaster wrote: I said major. Like in game ending will never field the model ever major.
Chimeras going up nearly 20% in price and losing major utility for command squads and vets is pretty major.
20% sounds like a lot, but we are talking about 10 points here. They are more durable, and did lose three fire points, but gained two wracks of las gun that can fire at different targets from the vehicle and the models inside.
Swastakowey wrote: The reason Cadians are now sold as standard Guard is simply because they sell Cadians. Its just a lazy way of going about it really. I'm just used to the old 3rd edition codex where it was actually codex everything. the art was of regiments that both had and did not have models. Stories of all worlds etc. Now the only thing generic about this codex is the choice of Camo and Carapace on veterans.
I suggest you look in the AM book. They actually have a "showcase page" with several different regiments that "both had and do not have models".
But white shields are the conscript unit in that codex.
No, they aren't. Whiteshields are a Conscript unit but they are not the Conscript unit.
Are Kasrkin even mentioned anymore? Or are they kinda, just gone...?
They're not mentioned but they're not gone either. Kasrkin weren't Stormtroopers as you seem to believe. They were Hellgun armed, Carapace Armored Veterans for all intents and purposes.
As to the weapons etc, preferred weapons are different to only being allowed certain weapons. Hence why all the weapon versions were sold on all the regiments. I think that was in the 4th codex for anyone who wanted to make a tradition based army.
If it were up to me, the Generic codex would have a Regiment creator kind of like doctrines that defined what units you take and what things they can and cant have plus a few tweaks etc to make your regiment unique. But as mentioned above I guess GW wants to focus on selling Cadians so that will never happen.
Why bother with that anymore?
Seriously. The Doctrine system was nice and all but it also punished you unnecessarily simply if you wanted to do a Doctrine force.
I wonder what the life line on non Cadian regiments is. I sometimes wonder if Cadians will be the standard guard regiment for all worlds over the next decade or so.
Considering that even before now they have been making a point of showing that Cadians aren't "just from Cadia" anymore, but rather you have the descendents of Cadian regiments that muster out on a world they've conquered being brought up as a new Regiment under a new name--it's not beyond belief that Cadian equipment does proliferate to the point where you can have their training and equipment clear on the other side of the galaxy from Cadia itself.
I do think that the IG 'dex is a "generic guard" 'dex, and Cadians are sold as both the generic guard and as the best of the best due to training from birth and having great equipment and what not... it's strange.
It's not as strange as you think. They have for the past few editions made a point of talking about how Cadians are "emulated throughout the Imperium" by forces that ape their methods of war and their equipment.
Plus considering you have whole Forge Worlds devoted to solely supplying Cadia with their style of equipment, it's not beyond belief that there might be surpluses of their equipment that can be handed off to newly founded Regiments elsewhere.
In regards to the "generic Guard and best of the best", that's where a new FOC like the W!G one could come in.
Something like Relentless or Slow and Purposeful to represent the sheer volume of fire that well-trained and disciplined troopers could pour on while advancing would be pretty nifty.
Hate to say it mate but this basically is "Codex Cadia" as they are the most generic of all the IG Regiments (since they are the only one in plastic, well done GW) and most of the Characters in the new book are Cadian. Their Specialist units like Kasirkin are now Scions and the Whiteshields are just Conscripts, not trying to be a downer but this book clearly to me is Codex Cadia with a few other Regimental Characters thrown in. You could even run a Kasirkin Regiment out of Militarium Tempestus if you want, all they did is condense it into a generic and Vanilla book like they did with Space Marines so "Codex Cadia" already exisits because that's what the Astra Militarium Codex is. Now if they are going to do any supplement it will probably be one of the following:
-Steel Legion: Special Rules with their Chimeras like everyone has to be mounted in one and maybe a bonus for shooting more weapons out of the top hatch, additional movement disembarking, they become assault vehicles ect.
-Catachan: They are mentioned in the new Astra Militarium but much like the "Farsight Enclaves" it probably is meant for people to pick and choose which book they would rather run it out of. Could see army wide "shroud or stealth" rule, move through cover and possibility of booby-trapping terrain.
-Valhallan Ice Warriors: Bring back the Special Character Chenkov for this Supplement and maybe...CIAPHAS CAIN! That would be awesome! Lots of Infantry wave tactics and buffs, hatred against Orks ect.
-Tallaran Desert Raiders: Unless Forgeworld is considering expanding their line of models (which may be a possibility) lots of outflanking and scouting units, disruption rules before and during the game, unique rough riders, special Tank rules.
-Vostroyans: Urban fighting specialist, special rules for buildings and ruins, move through cover ect.
These are just examples of what would be better supplements then a Cadian one because as stated, Astra Militarium is already basically Codex Cadia. Also would give GW an excuse to release a new set of plastic figures and potentially rake in more cash (especially with Steel Legion).
20% sounds like a lot, but we are talking about 10 points here. They are more durable, and did lose three fire points, but gained two wracks of las gun that can fire at different targets from the vehicle and the models inside.
The las guns unfortunately don't mean much, the firing points were far more valuable. When the book was released the Chimera did not have additional durability, and regardless the 7E changes apply to all vehicles, not just the Chimera, so it's difficult to see the justification there (especially with things like Leman Russ tanks getting significantly cheaper). The survivability changes also don't change the primary kill method of HP stripping, and they're still *way* easier to kill than their previous incarnation was when it was released in 5E.
10pts doesn't sound like a lot...until you realize they're transporting 60-90pt units and you're fielding a lot of them. It adds up *very* quickly. My last mechanized list increased by 110pts alone there (3 mech platoons, 2 CCS"s). If you include increases to command squad costs, just the troops and HQ increased 160pts over the previous incarnation, and the only thing they gained were some better orders that they can't use within the transports anyway and lost the ability to use half the firepower of the command squads unless they disembark (and usually subsequently die).
Given the other vehicle changes since 5E, and and the incredible transports of some of the other factions, it's difficult to see where such changes were warranted or helpful.
Swastakowey wrote: The reason Cadians are now sold as standard Guard is simply because they sell Cadians. Its just a lazy way of going about it really. I'm just used to the old 3rd edition codex where it was actually codex everything. the art was of regiments that both had and did not have models. Stories of all worlds etc. Now the only thing generic about this codex is the choice of Camo and Carapace on veterans.
I suggest you look in the AM book. They actually have a "showcase page" with several different regiments that "both had and do not have models".
But white shields are the conscript unit in that codex.
No, they aren't. Whiteshields are a Conscript unit but they are not the Conscript unit.
Are Kasrkin even mentioned anymore? Or are they kinda, just gone...?
They're not mentioned but they're not gone either. Kasrkin weren't Stormtroopers as you seem to believe. They were Hellgun armed, Carapace Armored Veterans for all intents and purposes.
As to the weapons etc, preferred weapons are different to only being allowed certain weapons. Hence why all the weapon versions were sold on all the regiments. I think that was in the 4th codex for anyone who wanted to make a tradition based army.
If it were up to me, the Generic codex would have a Regiment creator kind of like doctrines that defined what units you take and what things they can and cant have plus a few tweaks etc to make your regiment unique. But as mentioned above I guess GW wants to focus on selling Cadians so that will never happen.
Why bother with that anymore?
Seriously. The Doctrine system was nice and all but it also punished you unnecessarily simply if you wanted to do a Doctrine force.
I wonder what the life line on non Cadian regiments is. I sometimes wonder if Cadians will be the standard guard regiment for all worlds over the next decade or so.
Considering that even before now they have been making a point of showing that Cadians aren't "just from Cadia" anymore, but rather you have the descendents of Cadian regiments that muster out on a world they've conquered being brought up as a new Regiment under a new name--it's not beyond belief that Cadian equipment does proliferate to the point where you can have their training and equipment clear on the other side of the galaxy from Cadia itself.
That showcase is tiny to the Cadian and catachan showcase and are there just because. You cant seriously tell me its proof that the codex was not made to fit Cadians and only Cadians.
Have you read the fluff for the conscript unit? Im fairly sure it mentions white shields... a Lot...
I know exactly what a Karskin is (or was as I should say). Where did you get the idea I thought otherwise?
Doctrines are great. One of the reasons 40k sucks worse than it used to is the huge lack of structure and "hard" choices leading to this crazyness we have now. Doctrines had an awesome structure that, while wasnt perfect, could have lead to so much more. It would be easy to cater it for all kinds of players.
Were besides on the internet does it say Cadians are generic Guardsmen? This is only found on internet wiki stuff and im pretty sure its an assumption. It is beyond belief that a galaxy of strong tradition where communities are a huge deal that they would not have a national uniform or policies. There is a reason mixing regiments is hard and dangerous, because they are all vastly unique. Im fairly sure this was encouraged by the Imperium to create soldier who where more determined to fight and so forth. Its also a big reason commissars are never from the same home world. To stop regiment tradition interfering with certain policies and to ensure regiment tradition didnt screw with other traditions and cause problems.
The new codex is pretty simply codex Cadia. Karskins dont exist anywhere anymore so I am pretty sure that no longer matters. Its all made with Cadia in mind. All the characters except 2 are Cadian. (the non cadians are all kicked). Majority of art, models and so forth are cadian. O
I dont see why you are defending it. You like Cadians, you should be happy to have a codex that suits your force without punishing it.
Just like the Cadian models, this codex is bland and uninspired. Which is why I hate it. No flavour, no decent back story and no love for non Cadians.
Thats just my opinion though. Maybe I have nostalgia? Maybe I am just struggling to keep up with all these changes im not happy with? Or maybe im just jealious that my Imperial Guard forces dont get much attention? Who knows. But it still pains me.
Kanluwen wrote: It doesn't suit a full Cadian force though. It's a generic IG force with options to make it so that anyone can make anything they want.
What about it doesnt suit a Cadian Force?
You know Mordians and Praetorians used to be rewarded for fighting in ranks? You know Chem Troops once had working drug inhalers? The list goes on.
What now? Now you fight like Cadians or you suffer horrid losses for no reason. My men fight in ranks but get punished simply because GW wants me to buy Cadians instead.
It is Codex Cadia and simply saying its not does not change that.
Kanluwen wrote: It doesn't suit a full Cadian force though. It's a generic IG force with options to make it so that anyone can make anything they want.
Which if you read the fluff it states that many other IG Regiments copy the Cadians in regards to equipment and tactics which would make this Codex Cadia. Again not trying to burst your bubble but the units in the codex can easily and effectively represent any and all of the specialist units that Cadia has, just with different titles. Cadians do not deserve a supplement book when compared to the other famous regiments as they have a much more specialized look and fuff then the Cadians do.
Kanluwen wrote: It doesn't suit a full Cadian force though. It's a generic IG force with options to make it so that anyone can make anything they want.
Which if you read the fluff it states that many other IG Regiments copy the Cadians in regards to equipment and tactics which would make this Codex Cadia. Again not trying to burst your bubble but the units in the codex can easily and effectively represent any and all of the specialist units that Cadia has, just with different titles. Cadians do not deserve a supplement book when compared to the other famous regiments as they have a much more specialized look and fuff then the Cadians do.
I have never seen this fluff in a GW book before. Where does it say this?
Kanluwen wrote: It doesn't suit a full Cadian force though. It's a generic IG force with options to make it so that anyone can make anything they want.
Which if you read the fluff it states that many other IG Regiments copy the Cadians in regards to equipment and tactics which would make this Codex Cadia.
Then by that logic, any supplement for Elysians make it the same thing for the various Drop Troop regiments.
Again not trying to burst your bubble but the units in the codex can easily and effectively represent any and all of the specialist units that Cadia has, just with different titles.
Except it can't.
Kasrkin aren't Scions. They're Hardened Veterans with Carapace Armor and Hellguns.
Cadian Shock Troops aren't Infantry Squads with the Sergeants waving swords and pistols. Everyone carries a rifle. Everyone fires.
Cadians do not deserve a supplement book when compared to the other famous regiments as they have a much more specialized look and fuff then the Cadians do.
They deserve it as much as the Tanith or the Tallarn or the Elysians. Just because you think they do not deserve one really does not mean that everyone agrees with you. I could come up with dozens of things that would make a Cadian supplement a fantastic thing--especially if you were to have it staged during the 13th Black Crusade and give Echoes of War/Altar of War missions surrounding that conflict.
20% sounds like a lot, but we are talking about 10 points here. They are more durable, and did lose three fire points, but gained two wracks of las gun that can fire at different targets from the vehicle and the models inside.
The las guns unfortunately don't mean much, the firing points were far more valuable. When the book was released the Chimera did not have additional durability, and regardless the 7E changes apply to all vehicles, not just the Chimera, so it's difficult to see the justification there (especially with things like Leman Russ tanks getting significantly cheaper). The survivability changes also don't change the primary kill method of HP stripping, and they're still *way* easier to kill than their previous incarnation was when it was released in 5E.
Having the additional fire points didn't make sense since the additional shooters were intended to represent the lasgun arrays. 65 points for the model as presented isn't really that bad. AV12, good turret weapon, heavy bolted, two shooters from the fire point, two sets of three lasguns. Not great, but additional shots.
10pts doesn't sound like a lot...until you realize they're transporting 60-90pt units and you're fielding a lot of them. It adds up *very* quickly. My last mechanized list increased by 110pts alone there (3 mech platoons, 2 CCS"s). If you include increases to command squad costs, just the troops and HQ increased 160pts over the previous incarnation, and the only thing they gained were some better orders that they can't use within the transports anyway and lost the ability to use half the firepower of the command squads unless they disembark (and usually subsequently die).
I have 6 chimera. If 60 points is going to break my army list, I am playing a pretty razor thin environment. Combined with the reduction in cost for many of the models being transported, it amount to pretty much nothing.
Given the other vehicle changes since 5E, and and the incredible transports of some of the other factions, it's difficult to see where such changes were warranted or helpful.
What incredible transports, wave serpents? Yeah, I would love to have wave serpents. They are also what, twice the price of a chimera? Am I forgetting any other transports that are significantly better than a chimera without being nearly twice their price?
Kanluwen wrote: It doesn't suit a full Cadian force though. It's a generic IG force with options to make it so that anyone can make anything they want.
Which if you read the fluff it states that many other IG Regiments copy the Cadians in regards to equipment and tactics which would make this Codex Cadia. Again not trying to burst your bubble but the units in the codex can easily and effectively represent any and all of the specialist units that Cadia has, just with different titles. Cadians do not deserve a supplement book when compared to the other famous regiments as they have a much more specialized look and fuff then the Cadians do.
I have never seen this fluff in a GW book before. Where does it say this?
Just read through the fluff portion of the book and think I may have gotten that from either the old book or some other source... . However if you want a good example look at the specialist regiments page on 18 and 19, both the Cadians and the Catachans get long and detailed summaries while the other Regiments just get brief descriptions, pretty big indication that the book was meant for the Cadians as well as the Catachans. The difference being that the Catachans are a much more unique force then the Cadians in regards to their fighting style and look.
And Kanluwen you just proved my point:
-Kasrkin- Hardened Veterans with Carapace Armor and Hellguns,
-Scions: Veterans with Carapace Armor and Hot Shot Lasgun
There is not enough difference to warrant them a special codex (the Hellgun has the SAME EXACT Stats as a Hot shot Lasgun). And you cannot say that EVERY other IG regiment carries Swords and Pistols. That is a rule element of the game that does not carry over or coincide with the fluff, multiple regiments (my Elysians included) I arm them with anything but a sword and pistol whenever it is possible.
And that's fine you can think that if you want, but again you are running into the problem that Cadians because of how GW has handled the IG are basically the "generic" Guardsmen in both terms of fluff and modeling. And you don't have to agree with me that's fine, but units that are much more specialized (Drop Troops, Jungle Fighters, Desert Raiders, Waves of Infantry, Urban Specialists, Old Fashioned ranks and lasgun volleys) are much different then the Cadians and would be a much better Supplement then Codex Cadia 2.0. I can respect your backing your Regiment but another Cadian book is not the answer.
Kanluwen wrote: It doesn't suit a full Cadian force though. It's a generic IG force with options to make it so that anyone can make anything they want.
Which if you read the fluff it states that many other IG Regiments copy the Cadians in regards to equipment and tactics which would make this Codex Cadia. Again not trying to burst your bubble but the units in the codex can easily and effectively represent any and all of the specialist units that Cadia has, just with different titles. Cadians do not deserve a supplement book when compared to the other famous regiments as they have a much more specialized look and fuff then the Cadians do.
I have never seen this fluff in a GW book before. Where does it say this?
Just read through the fluff portion of the book and think I may have gotten that from either the old book or some other source... . However if you want a good example look at the specialist regiments page on 18 and 19, both the Cadians and the Catachans get long and detailed summaries while the other Regiments just get brief descriptions, pretty big indication that the book was meant for the Cadians as well as the Catachans. The difference being that the Catachans are a much more unique force then the Cadians in regards to their fighting style and look.
I have only seen that on the internet. Im fairly sure its made up haha. Players are so subject to Cadians that they just assume that they are the standard regiment... I think
Yea I tend to call it Codex Cadia with some Catachan sprinkled in.
Having the additional fire points didn't make sense since the additional shooters were intended to represent the lasgun arrays.
If you want to get into the strict realism, the lasgun arrays probably make more sense, but are much more fiddly, and it's not like the 5 firing points was much of a stretch.
65 points for the model as presented isn't really that bad.
It's certainly nothing to write home about either. Ultimately, it's a reaction to a perceived problem nearly 2 editions too late.
AV12, good turret weapon, heavy bolted, two shooters from the fire point, two sets of three lasguns. Not great, but additional shots.
In an environment where AV12 is no longer particularly hardy, and hasn't been for years, without major survivability wargear.
I have 6 chimera. If 60 points is going to break my army list, I am playing a pretty razor thin environment.
60pts is another infantry squad or another tank or equipped multiple squads with carapace armor. It's enough to mean you now have to drop a unit, and your remaining units are less effective than they were before.
Combined with the reduction in cost for many of the models being transported, it amount to pretty much nothing.
What units being transported got cheaper? Only Veterans. Infantry squads stayed identical, command squads went up in price 20-33%.
What incredible transports, wave serpents? Yeah, I would love to have wave serpents. They are also what, twice the price of a chimera?
And it could be argued deliver much more than twice the value. Either way, nobody else's transport's have seen major price increases.
I have only seen that on the internet. Im fairly sure its made up haha. Players are so subject to Cadians that they just assume that they are the standard regiment... I think
Then I question if you actually own the Doctrines book.
Codex: Imperial Guard Doctrines Edition page 58 wrote:Cadia has always been a fortress world, charged with guarding the entrance to the Eye of Terror. Its population are all destined for a military life; the birth rate and recruitment rate are synonymous. Cadian Regiments are highly disciplined, make excellent shots, and use elite shock troops to lead their attacks. Such is the reputation of the Cadian Shock Troops that many other regiments mimic their appearance, although their doctrines may differ.
It did not make it into the following book, but it was in the White Dwarf for the release.
gmaleron wrote:-Kasrkin- Hardened Veterans with Carapace Armor and Hellguns,
-Scions: Veterans with Carapace Armor and Hot Shot Lasgun
There is not enough difference to warrant them a special codex (the Hellgun has the SAME EXACT Stats as a Hot shot Lasgun).
One of those comes with Infiltration/Deep Strike as an option.
One of those would not. One of those is also a Troops choice and not an Elite. Thanks for proving my point.
And you cannot say that EVERY other IG regiment carries Swords and Pistols. That is a rule element of the game that does not carry over or coincide with the fluff, multiple regiments (my Elysians included) I arm them with anything but a sword and pistol whenever it is possible.
The difference being that if you use your Elysian lists, you are not required to give your Sergeants, Lieutenants, or Captains pistols/CCWs.
And that's fine you can think that if you want, but again you are running into the problem that Cadians because of how GW has handled the IG are basically the "generic" Guardsmen in both terms of fluff and modeling. And you don't have to agree with me that's fine, but units that are much more specialized (Drop Troops, Jungle Fighters, Desert Raiders, Waves of Infantry, Urban Specialists, Old Fashioned ranks and lasgun volleys) are much different then the Cadians and would be a much better Supplement then Codex Cadia 2.0.
Drop Troops would be a terrible supplement. Why? Because Forge World has already done it so, so, so much better than GW ever would.
Jungle Fighters had a Codex at one point. It was a joke.
"Waves of Infantry" is no different than C: Astra Militarum.
"Urban Specialists" is also a joke. It's called Cities of Death. Anyone can be "Urban Specialists" to put it politely.
"Old fashioned ranks and lasgun volleys" is, again, no different than C: Astra Militarum.
The only one that really could feasibly be done is Desert Raiders--but even then, they could be done easily enough like the Eldar Rangers/Pathfinders where they do an in-game effect at the start of the game.
I can respect your backing your Regiment but another Cadian book is not the answer.
It has nothing to do with "backing my regiment". I just find the idea that some Regiments are more deserving than others ridiculous. If effort is put into it, you could have a great supplement out of damn near anything.
The fact that Sentinels of Terra, Black Legion, and Clan Raaukan exist is testament to that.
Many regiments. So its not standard or generic. Just many regiments share the gear. But fair enough, you found it. I never knew that existed.
But just a tip, if you are gonna call people out on fluff, please get your commissar facts right first.
I personally think, and many would agree, that a Cadian Supplement will not only be horridly wasteful of potential, but also hurt the lack of variety issue guard have more than it would provide more options. Cadians are already incredibly highly presented in the current and last codex more than any other. Why would anybody want more?
Playing Cadia and catahcan is already rewarded greatly in the current codex while many others are punished for how they play. Do you know how fun it is to remove huge amounts of your men because they are lined up? Its not very fun.
The codex is codex cadia. If GW made a new plastic regiment, I am 99% certain they will be featured as much as Cadia and Catachan currently are featured. Thats why the codex is the way it is. From a rules standpoint its not that bad, but everything else is pretty terrible.
I would come very close to quitting GW entirely if they dare release Cadia 2.0 as a supplement. To much wasted potential as it is.
Kanluwen wrote: Read "Cadian Blood" or "The 13th Black Crusade" sourcebook.
Both say that Commissars are "rare and insulting" for Cadian Regiments. If they're going to have Commissars, they generally have Cadian Commissars.
Is that a novel? If its a novel i tend to ignore those and use the Codex and in the codex it says Commissars never share the same homeworld. Nor do they care how the regiment feels about them.
I imagine if Cadians get their own supplement I imagine the main difference will be some different order options. Otherwise it's Karsikins and Whiteshields instead of storm troopers and conscripts. Karsikins I could see them getting rules that differentiate them from Scions.
Cadians and Catachan supplements I could see them each being limited to specific Veteran types. A more limited veteran type but at a discount would help differentiate.
I bet GW will also give them each preferred enemy toward their respect fluffy antagonists.
One of those comes with Infiltration/Deep Strike as an option.
One of those would not. One of those is also a Troops choice and not an Elite. Thanks for proving my point.
This didn't even come close to proving your point so sorry, TRY again. If you are going to get that technical then guess what, you can take the Militarium Tempestus book so you can take Scions as troops.
The difference being that if you use your Elysian lists, you are not required to give your Sergeants, Lieutenants, or Captains pistols/CCWs.
Um in the Astra Militarium book you can equip both Sergeants and Veteran Sergeants with Ranged weapons so I am failing to see how you are "required" to equip them with swords and pistols.
Drop Troops would be a terrible supplement. Why? Because Forge World has already done it so, so, so much better than GW ever would.
Jungle Fighters had a Codex at one point. It was a joke.
"Waves of Infantry" is no different than C: Astra Militarum.
"Urban Specialists" is also a joke. It's called Cities of Death. Anyone can be "Urban Specialists" to put it politely.
"Old fashioned ranks and lasgun volleys" is, again, no different than C: Astra Militarum.
The only one that really could feasibly be done is Desert Raiders--but even then, they could be done easily enough like the Eldar Rangers/Pathfinders where they do an in-game effect at the start of the game.
And these all above are your own personal opinions not facts. The point is the specialist regiments (listed on pages 18 and 19 in the Codex I believe) have something that makes them unique when compared to the Cadians and therefore chances are they would get their own book. I agree with the Drop Troops (was used as an example) but your comment in regards to both the Waves of Infantry and Volley fire how they are no different then C. Astra Militarium, guess what the same argument can be easily made with your Cadians.
It has nothing to do with "backing my regiment". I just find the idea that some Regiments are more deserving than others ridiculous. If effort is put into it, you could have a great supplement out of damn near anything.
The fact that Sentinels of Terra, Black Legion, and Clan Raaukan exist is testament to that.
The fact that you are saying how above you basically came up with a reason for other Regiments to NOT have a supplement in regards to the Cadians is also ridiculous and undermines this statement. Im sorry man but no matter how you slice it or how technical you try to get there is not enough stuff that is uniquely Cadian to warrant them their own supplement when compared to other Regiments. And this is not "favoring" another Regiment as you called it, its the fact that there are more unique things that set them apart that would make sense for a supplement to be released.
aka_mythos wrote: I imagine if Cadians get their own supplement I imagine the main difference will be some different order options. Otherwise it's Karsikins and Whiteshields instead of storm troopers and conscripts. Karsikins I could see them getting rules that differentiate them from Scions.
Cadians and Catachan supplements I could see them each being limited to specific Veteran types. A more limited veteran type but at a discount would help differentiate.
I bet GW will also give them each preferred enemy toward their respect fluffy antagonists.
If they did it would be something like that but I doubt many people would want a Cadian 2.0 style of book. Would definitely rather have a Steel Legion, Catachan or Valhallan Supplement to bring something different to the table other then plain boring old Cadian models.
Swastakowey wrote:The reason Cadians are now sold as standard Guard is simply because they sell Cadians.
Everything cadian they sell, they also have a catachan version that they also sell.
Ergo...
Kanluwen wrote:Depending, again, what you read? Commissars are either: A) Primarily attached to regiments from their home world(Remember they're orphans, not children born in space with no home world) or B) Attached to regiments from their home world preferably, but other worlds if not possible.
This is the opposite of what it says in the fluff.
Commissars make up the entirety of the imperial guard's staff officers. They exist to provide logistics and intelligence and communication and all that other stuff that staff officers do. Because they're all doled out from the central bureaucracy, they're almost never in regiments from their own world. It's what makes it easier to keep order in a certain, specific way (not swayed by local customs), and it make it easier to shoot people on those times when order needs to be restored in person.
In-game, they exist to summarily execute people and restore morale, but that's just what they can do in-game.
It would be like saying that George W Bush's main contribution to the Iraq war was as a fighter pilot.
And they could EASILY make a Cadian supplement. Seriously. Just sit down right now and think for 30 seconds about how you could tweak a few units, add a few warlord traits, a relic or two, and come up with a single special character.
If you can do it easily in the comfort of your living room, GW could easily do it with a staff of trained writers.
The reason Cadians are now sold as standard Guard is simply because they sell Cadians.
Everything cadian they sell, they also have a catachan version that they also sell.
Ergo...
Yes hence why Catachan was the ONLY other regiment to have their special characters mostly intact and have a decent showing in the book. Which I mentioned earlier.
If they did it would be something like that but I doubt many people would want a Cadian 2.0 style of book. Would definitely rather have a Steel Legion, Catachan or Valhallan Supplement to bring something different to the table other then plain boring old Cadian models.
Unfortunately with the shift away from metal and finecast it's unlikely we'll see any support for a regiment that isn't plastic. Even if we did given the age of those other minis I'd be more in inclined to believe we'd see them support voystroyan before any of the others.
Yes, I know, but think about which army would be the easiest to convert?
Vostroyans would be a nightmare to get the legs and torsos and long coats to all line up correctly. You basically have to make those one-piece. Valhallans wouldn't be much better. That leaves steel legion, or one of the mordian types. Steel legion look like they'd be easier to make a sprue out of.
However, would they? Would it make financial sense for them to invest huge £ into new plastic models for an existing range that are simply "alternatives" to the existing line? Never mind the sprue cost, you then have the issues of storing the damn things at GW stores....
Sadly the chances of this seem slim, as much as I would LOVE to see more variant guard models. The costs are likely prohibitive compared to the likely return.
nosferatu1001 wrote: However, would they? Would it make financial sense for them to invest huge £ into new plastic models for an existing range that are simply "alternatives" to the existing line? Never mind the sprue cost, you then have the issues of storing the damn things at GW stores....
Sadly the chances of this seem slim, as much as I would LOVE to see more variant guard models. The costs are likely prohibitive compared to the likely return.
Im kind of glad for this. Other companies do the imperial guard waaaay better than GW. I personally dont like GW plastics most of the time. I can get all the old guard regiments from other retailers plus a lot more! Except tallarn but even they have head swaps nowdays.
But a book would be fine for some rule variation at least. But GW will not make a new plastic Guard regiment any time soon. I think anyways.
I dont understand how victoria lamb can create fantastic plastic preatorian-esque guardsmen while gw are sticking with metal. Surely with their resources they could have made a plastic range for all the ig regiments by now?
1) SPace on production machines. THis isnt free [as in, the current slack space is essentially nil, so to produce these kits in sufficient quantity something else has to get bumped, OR you buy another million pound machine, install and commission it) 2) Building up sufficient stock for worldwide, simultaneous release. This isnt free (if in doubt, have allook into volume planning one of these days, and see how complex it can be) 3) Storing and displaying an expanded range (effectively doubling the infantry line, to do it properly) in GW stores, worldwide. This REALLY isnt free
Theres 3 reasons in about 10 seconds of thought. Manu+Retail is much, much more complicated than just Manu
And all just as quickly dismissed for being ridiculous.
1. If your manufacturing is running flat strap to keep up with orders, you expand your manufacturing. This is much easier for an established company with cash flow to do.
2. All the more reason to do 1.
3. Yes we all realize GW stores are ridiculous. It's about time GW realized it too.
I think a supplement focused on Cadia could work. If they tied it in with the 13th black crusade (the eye of terror campaign and sourcebook has been retconned by now, remember!) and actually advanced the central story of 40K it would be great - but since it would mean changing the status quo, I doubt we'll ever see a supplement like this.
I will agree with the others that the current codex handles cadians and catachans pretty well and outside of formations, there's not much a supplement could offer to these armies. I'd much rather see steel legion, valhallans or mordians because it would be cool to see some alternate playstyles revolving around these forces.
Only by taking an elementary, naive view that doesnt actually look at anythying like real world and only ideals, then yes it can be dismissed quickly. Notice how you dealt with absolutes, and I dealt with less specific? (this isnt free vs just do it) This is because I dont claim to have the only answer, just some likely reasons why an established company may have issues, based on some chats i've had with people who actually work there and have some actual knowledge of the topic.
1) Costs money. Lots of money, as they like to own their own manufacturing (understandable after the China issues). This can be done, but takes more of a BUSINESS case than a single release is likely to provide. Of course, you thought of that.... nope.
Whereas a new company can rent space, as needed. Its actually EASIER for a startup / smaller company, as they dont have to make the same volumes. Being big has disadvantages, remember.
2) Again, as per 1. Planning line equipment is, from a guess, something you havent had to plan? Ever tried volume planning on a worldwide organisation? I havent, but I've seen it done, and your "just do it" no-depth answers are...well. Bad.
3) I like the UKGW sttores. Maybe they dont meet your requirements, but to say "we all" is...well, its more of your "day one DLC" bullgak.
The cost of the Torox actually was what pissed me off. Picked up the codex the day it came out and figured i would grab 2 toroxes for the heck of it.
When i went to check them out and was told they were $100 for the 2, i can say that was a wtf ! moment for me. $50 for a 50pt model imho is a bit much.. I put them back and just run my Chimeras.
Price points suck. It's 40k and like any other luxury it's sold not for fair price but what the seller wants. The fact we're here means we have no problem spending on frivolities. That said we shouldn't derail this into a heartfelt discussion of the economics of 40k. In the end it's a hobby, we could all survive buying none.
Mumblez wrote: I think a supplement focused on Cadia could work. If they tied it in with the 13th black crusade (the eye of terror campaign and sourcebook has been retconned by now, remember!) and actually advanced the central story of 40K it would be great - but since it would mean changing the status quo, I doubt we'll ever see a supplement like this.
I will agree with the others that the current codex handles cadians and catachans pretty well and outside of formations, there's not much a supplement could offer to these armies. I'd much rather see steel legion, valhallans or mordians because it would be cool to see some alternate playstyles revolving around these forces.
I think Codex Cadia could be done. You look at the CSM supplements and GW didn't do much. A Cadian Supplement could easily bring as much to the table and easily more if GW wanted to put in the effort. Fluffy renaming of Scions and Conscripts to Karsikins and White Shields. Some additional orders. Different veteran options... And that's about as much as Black Legion gave CSM.
Personally I think Catachans would be the more interesting supplement since their rules would emphasize an actual different play style.
It'd be neat to see one of the two get rules for a Veteran platoon.
Kanluwen wrote: Read "Cadian Blood" or "The 13th Black Crusade" sourcebook.
Both say that Commissars are "rare and insulting" for Cadian Regiments. If they're going to have Commissars, they generally have Cadian Commissars.
Actually, according to the fluff in the 13th Black Crusade sourcebook, Cadians still get offworld Commissars. Hence that short story from the Commissar who was attached to a unit of Whiteshields so that *he* could learn to keep up with *them* because they were in such better shape. Afterwards, he would be re-assigned to an adult Cadian unit.
With the exception of Kasrkin, who are not functionally that different from Stormtroopers or Scions or whatever, the current codex is a perfectly valid representation of a Cadian force. You have most of your special characters left, you have all of your units (and a serviceable stand-in that loses *nothing* of importance ie, Scions for Kasrkin) and you have all of your models. Calling Codex AM codex Cadia is not enough of a misrepresentation for it to be untrue. The only difference between Codex AM and a real, hard-core Codex Cadia is that you would have fewer units available to you under Codex Cadia (rough riders, ogryns, ratlings, taurox). So basically, Codex AM is "Codex Cadia Plus a Lil' Extra for those Who Might Want to Do Something Different Than Cadia".
So you already have Codex Cadia.
But cheer up! Nobody else will ever get a codex for their IG army!
Seriously. Look at the time frame around te announcement of supplements for the other armies. How long after the release of Tyrandis did GW announce dataslates? After Space Marines? Orks haven't been out a month and we have W!G. It's been how long since AM was dropped on us? How many supplements/dataslates have been announced? None? Yeah, thought so. We aren't getting a supplement for AM. We just aren't. Representing a non-Cadian army would require GW to make an army's worth of new models, and we all know that isn't going to happen. They won't release a Codex: Catachan either, because they did that once and nobody bought it. GW won't make that mistake again.
TheKbob wrote: The new style of Codex since Tyranids and through Orks it seems is to strip them down to very vanilla releases; very cut and dry. Tyranids is still lackluster and lost major ways to play. Imperial Guard lost a ton of flavor (and my favorite special character) but remains good, from my view point. Orks lost a lot of different ways to play and got some really dumb changes (Gaz as a LOW, no invulns in close combat, no FOC tricks, etc.).
Basically assume you're going to get a really bland book and extra spice may come down the road in the form of a $15 ~ $50 add-on.
This is a great point. They made alot of changes.. for the sake of changes it seems like. Like Kanz increasing in price..but he weapons dropping in price. They work out to ALMOST the same ..but why chnage it? were they OP? Why remove 3 str from them in CC?
aka_mythos wrote: It's 40k and like any other luxury it's sold not for fair price but what the seller wants.
Oh, my goodness...
Here, have a look at what price actually is. There is no such thing as an unfair price (only a certain volume sold over a certain price), and price isn't determined by what the seller wants it to be.
KommissarKarl wrote:I dont understand how victoria lamb can create fantastic plastic preatorian-esque guardsmen while gw are sticking with metal. Surely with their resources they could have made a plastic range for all the ig regiments by now?
Just because a handful of people on the internet want some doesn't mean it's in GW's best interest to produce them.
Niche demand is best handled by niche suppliers, rather than larger companies that work with economies of scale.
aka_mythos wrote: It's 40k and like any other luxury it's sold not for fair price but what the seller wants.
Oh, my goodness...
Here, have a look at what price actually is. There is no such thing as an unfair price (only a certain volume sold over a certain price), and price isn't determined by what the seller wants it to be.
I disagree. In economics there is a distinction between market prices and fair prices. Fair prices go beyond the notion of Market prices by incorporating abstractly the individual subjective valuation and use of an item in question, while also considering the synergistic relationship of the two exchanging parties. Market value maybe a certain amount, but fair value can be a different price than market norms by being higher or lower value based on factors unrelated to market. For example my personal relationship with another person might prompt me to pay more or prompt them to ask me for less than market rate "because we're friends" but those prices may otherwise be outside market valuation. This is to say the very economic notion of fair value extends consideration beyond just the individual attributes of the object and considers the subjectivity I bring to considering the value.
My personal belief in the valuation and prices GW asks are unfair are based on my personal experience in the manufacture of plastic parts and how detached their pricing is from its cost to produce and bring to market. When you look at their business model they have emphasized margin growth over market share growth and have lost market share for it. Unfair prices one can assert are simply the prices that generate an adverse effect on the size of the market and consumer base. I would assert that when the prices GW asks for its products cause market contraction, that the greater body of customers do not individually perceive GW's prices as meeting their individual subjective utility and thus are not a fair value, or as I said its an unfair price.
I assert that the cause is their price setting because their overhead, material, and manufacturing cost are by their own stock holders report flat. When you remove those attributes from the pricing of product its only what GW perceives they should get for their product that drives their asking market price. Their expectations are overreaching and don't align with their market causing the aforementioned contraction. Also when a company has flattened its overhead, material, and manufacturing costs that affords them one of the highest degrees of pricing flexibility but simply they have gone beyond what the market can bear.
Well, have you seen what Pask in punisher squadron with prescience can do?
MM sponsons and hull lascannon. Brutal stuff. As if 20 S5 rending shots weren't enough. Point it at marines - they'll fail some of those saves(and you wound them on 3's), then come the sponsons and lascannons that just evaporate them and they -will- hit with prescience.
Overall I think the book is fine. Sure, those special characters were nice to have, even if anyone barely used them, but I guess GW either pulled them to release them in respective regiment supplements or they just weren't selling well enough to further support those options and were cut. I for one won't miss them because I never used 'em, only Marbo occasionally, but that's it.
As for the nerfs and point shifts.. at least the armoured sentinels are stupid good for their points! Put a plasma cannon on six of them and watch the hilarity ensue!
Klerych wrote: Well, have you seen what Pask in punisher squadron with prescience can do?
MM sponsons and hull lascannon. Brutal stuff. As if 20 S5 rending shots weren't enough. Point it at marines - they'll fail some of those saves(and you wound them on 3's), then come the sponsons and lascannons that just evaporate them and they -will- hit with prescience.
For what, 300pts (tank+upgrade weapons+pask+psyker, not counting mandatory 2nd HQ tank) one would hope it'd be scary...
As for the nerfs and point shifts.. at least the armoured sentinels are stupid good for their points! Put a plasma cannon on six of them and watch the hilarity ensue!
They're sorta ok with one, *maybe* two, weapons options and largely bad with most of the rest. That they only have 2HP really, really hurts, even at what looks like on paper to be a relatively cheap price. They weren't considered very good when they were as durable as a Chimera in 5E, now they're cheaper, but also correspondingly easier to kill too, leaving them with the same problem.
Commissars make up the entirety of the imperial guard's staff officers. They exist to provide logistics and intelligence and communication and all that other stuff that staff officers do.
Vaktathi wrote: For what, 300pts (tank+upgrade weapons+pask+psyker, not counting mandatory 2nd HQ tank) one would hope it'd be scary...
Well, it's fairly durable too. I mean.. 14 front and 13 side really makes a difference and pumping out so many shots(that can be spread between two targets if you pass a, what, LD10 test?) is going to hurt people. Especially if it's a part of a mech army with wall of armour advancing forward, covering each other's sides.
Vaktathi wrote: They're sorta ok with one, *maybe* two, weapons options and largely bad with most of the rest. That they only have 2HP really, really hurts, even at what looks like on paper to be a relatively cheap price. They weren't considered very good when they were as durable as a Chimera in 5E, now they're cheaper, but also correspondingly easier to kill too, leaving them with the same problem.
When facing a proper IG army people will be least likely to try to pop the silly sentinels when everything else is much more dangerous. They're perfect harassment unit - walking plasma cannon for 50pts that's invincible to small arms with 12 front AV while a single shot can pay majority of it's point cost back without abundance of luck even if you simply aim it at infantry.
aka_mythos wrote: I've used Pask and he's definitely a star. I'm really leaning towards converting up a dedicated model for representing him; I'm liking him too much.
I've been using Pask from 5th edition, in 7th he is a best! Do what I did, make a custom ride for him like mine;
)
. However if you want a good example look at the specialist regiments page on 18 and 19, both the Cadians and the Catachans get long and detailed summaries while the other Regiments just get brief descriptions, pretty big indication that the book was meant for the Cadians as well as the Catachans. The difference being that the Catachans are a much more unique force then the Cadians in regards to their fighting style and look.
