So I was sitting here pondering and wondering. With the Space Marines being superior in every way shape and form, and if wanted to we could force more second, or third if you will, foundings, and each space marine is worth 1,000 men( come one now, we all know its way more than that) then why do they even exist? To give biomass to tyranids? To allow orks to rip their heads off as trophies? To become eventual chaos cultists or join the Tau? To be utterly tortured by the dark eldar or just obliterated by daemons, chaos space marines, or eldar? Or to become eventual slaves to necrons? I mean, let's be honest. Imperial guardsman are so weak, frail, and all in all are worthless flesh that just gets in the way. Hell, the people made to protect them (space marines) find them so annoying and would gladly kill them if given the order. So it pulls at my mind to ask the question, why even exist in 40k? To give people that underdog hope feeling that even a simple man can make a difference or something?

They Exist Because the Imperioum is still exist. With out the Guard, the Empire falls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM

 kinratha wrote:
They Exist Because the Imperioum is still exist. With out the Guard, the Empire falls.

This is false, as I've stated they could just expand the amount of space marines to easily cover the loss of the guard.

Because there are nowhere near enough space marines to protect the entire Imperium, this is an empire with countless stars. Besides if a guard regiment turns traitor you get a few traitor guardsmen with poor logistics and will probably kill each other off or get eaten by nids anyway. Now if a chapter of space marines turns traitor, which they have done many times, look at the Horus Heresy. That was when space marines DID do the job the guard do now. Sure it was efficient but when half turned traitor the Imperium was royally frakked.

Lshowell wrote:

 kinratha wrote:
They Exist Because the Imperioum is still exist. With out the Guard, the Empire falls.

This is false, as I've stated they could just expand the amount of space marines to easily cover the loss of the guard.

And then waste resources while Space Marines try and hold ground which they can't do as well as guard because they aren't meant for holding ground.
Guard can last much longer with their higher numbers and tanks.

Plus it keeps populations down and gives you some way to field cheap armies.

Why do "XXX" even exist ?

Don't ask why. Ask Why not ?

( applies to both threads, the IG and the SM one )

Because to get a single standard Tactical Marine you have to kidnap one of the most powerful teenager males on a planet, fill him with drugs and body implants, have him strangle some dragons or some other beast, then he has to survive a number of years performing recce missions in a real war. For a Guardsman you just have to give a average person a gun and armour with a little training so you can get much more Guard than Marines.

Because space marines are wasted on occupation, riot control and mundane guard duty or other man power intensive tasks that the guard are just so perfect for.

Even the legions had army in support.

Two critical flaws:

Lshowell wrote:With the Space Marines being superior in every way shape and form

They're not. They are better in SOME ways, but not in ALL ways. For example, there are WAY more guardsmen than marines. As said, the imperium would instantly evaporate if it were just up to marines to defend it.

And the fact that there are so few marines points to their other problems, such as...

Lshowell wrote: and if wanted to we could force more second, or third if you will, foundings,

... this. The imperium may WANT more marines, but that doesn't mean they get them.

Space marines are incredibly difficult to create, and take a lot of resources. They take decades to train, and they absorb vast quantities of materiel what with their sacred-oils-blessed-bolters instead of infinite ammo lasguns, and the inefficiency of each chapter maintaining its own fleet and the strategic difficulties of letting them go off and pick their own objectives.

And all of it is completely wasted when you have, say, a war that just needs to be won by attrition. Guardsmen are MUCH better in that strategic role, and in many others as well (defending far-flung listening posts, acting as a local police force, etc. etc.)

Space marines are very good at what they do, and sometimes what you need is to call in the special forces for a complicated, dangerous mission where money is no object. That is far from all the time, though.

My answer,

1. Space Marine Gene seed are limited.

2. Space Marine are not built for guarding worlds, they seek active battlefields, not defend.

3. There is an abundent supply of guardmans avaliable.

4. The imperium doesn't have the support infrastructure to equip that many Space Marines, you won't want the typical space marine to fight without power armour or carry a lasgun.

It's the same reason doctors still use x-rays and clinical exams when MRIs exist.

Just because something is better, does not mean it shoudl be used in every possible application.

You would have to inflate the number of Space Marine Chapters by a hundred-fold or more to even make a dent in the numbers of the Imperial Guard and the territory required to cover. The way Gene-seed is reproduced means that would take thousands and thousands of years to come about.

Remember you have billions of Imperial Guard versus a Million Space Marines.

Also, as said before, just making a new Space Marine does not mean that you have Power Armor to put him in.

Asking why IG exist is like asking why water flows. They are the base of humanity and SM's would get theie asses whipped without them. Besides, GW portrays SM's with only 1,000,000 men and it makes zer0 sense. If I could rewrite the first founding I would make that the legions were instead shortened to 10,000 men of 50 companies comprising of 200 men each. Just my opinion of course but it would be a lot more believable than a mere 1,000 brothers. IG are very vital though. Remove them from the Imperium and watch how honourably it crumbles.

Because GW wants the money of all the confused WW1/WW2 fans who want to try laser rifles instead of bullets as well, and have some kind of weird glasses that turn everything else into either other trench warfareists or objectively poor soldiers.

Plus, they felt the setting was not self-contradicting enough without having trench warfare and psykers slicing starships in half in the same faction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM

Lshowell wrote:
So I was sitting here pondering and wondering. With the Space Marines being superior in every way shape and form, and if wanted to we could force more second, or third if you will, foundings, and each space marine is worth 1,000 men( come one now, we all know its way more than that) then why do they even exist? To give biomass to tyranids? To allow orks to rip their heads off as trophies? To become eventual chaos cultists or join the Tau? To be utterly tortured by the dark eldar or just obliterated by daemons, chaos space marines, or eldar? Or to become eventual slaves to necrons? I mean, let's be honest. Imperial guardsman are so weak, frail, and all in all are worthless flesh that just gets in the way. Hell, the people made to protect them (space marines) find them so annoying and would gladly kill them if given the order. So it pulls at my mind to ask the question, why even exist in 40k? To give people that underdog hope feeling that even a simple man can make a difference or something?

Toll topic is troll-ey, but I'll bite anyway.

With how long it takes to make a Space Marine, the rate at which their equipment can be produced, the amount of geneseed that can be produced, and the notorious independence of the Space Marines, it makes expanding them difficult.

Meanwhile, each SM is not worth 1000 men or "way more than that", you put a thousand guardsmen against a Space Marine and the SM is going to be toast, you put ten thousand against a Tac squad and the tac squad is toast, etc. But even if that were true, there's hundreds of millions of human soldiers for each Space Marine, millions of regiments for each chapter, so many more such that even at such absurd value ratios there's just so many more basic humans that the SM's become irrelevant very quickly, and the normal human forces can be raised and expended and recovered much easier and much faster and with much more control.

Besides, an Guardsmen may be weak, but not so much when backed up by dozens of heavy weapons, inummerable tanks, and legions of artillery. Artillery and crew served weapons are what inflict the vast majority of casualties in conventional conflicts in the real world, not infantry with rifles, and such is true of the Imperial Guard as well.

To put it one way, space marines are a scalpal, they exacute exact missions and goals with small numbers of elite troops.

Guard is a sledgehammer, much slower but will obliterate opersition by sheer numbers or shells.

Lshowell wrote:
So I was sitting here pondering and wondering. With the Space Marines being superior in every way shape and form, and if wanted to we could force more second, or third if you will, foundings, and each space marine is worth 1,000 men( come one now, we all know its way more than that) then why do they even exist? To give biomass to tyranids? To allow orks to rip their heads off as trophies? To become eventual chaos cultists or join the Tau? To be utterly tortured by the dark eldar or just obliterated by daemons, chaos space marines, or eldar? Or to become eventual slaves to necrons? I mean, let's be honest. Imperial guardsman are so weak, frail, and all in all are worthless flesh that just gets in the way. Hell, the people made to protect them (space marines) find them so annoying and would gladly kill them if given the order. So it pulls at my mind to ask the question, why even exist in 40k? To give people that underdog hope feeling that even a simple man can make a difference or something?

I think it is because without the guard to keep them in check, all marines will instantly turn traitor. They all already are in their heart. But they know if they show it, the guard and the navy will blow them in piece small enough to fit between the mustache of a troll .

Because Space Marines wish they were Imperial Guard...lets face it the IG are better in EVERY way

Lshowell wrote:
So I was sitting here pondering and wondering. With the Space Marines being superior in every way shape and form, and if wanted to we could force more second, or third if you will, foundings, and each space marine is worth 1,000 men( come one now, we all know its way more than that) then why do they even exist? To give biomass to tyranids? To allow orks to rip their heads off as trophies? To become eventual chaos cultists or join the Tau? To be utterly tortured by the dark eldar or just obliterated by daemons, chaos space marines, or eldar? Or to become eventual slaves to necrons? I mean, let's be honest. Imperial guardsman are so weak, frail, and all in all are worthless flesh that just gets in the way. Hell, the people made to protect them (space marines) find them so annoying and would gladly kill them if given the order. So it pulls at my mind to ask the question, why even exist in 40k? To give people that underdog hope feeling that even a simple man can make a difference or something?

For the same reason not everyone in the UK's armed forces aren't part of the SAS.
The training alone would be death to most people, and the numbers of people that would survive and actually do well in the job are so few and far between that it would be a massive waste of resources and manpower to try to convert them all. Not to mention the IOM's vast genetic incompatibility with geneseeds. Even viable candidates get scrapped because their biology just won't accept the mutations.

Space Marines are equipped with a mindset of "Kill now. Keep moving. Must fight everything.", the IG are fare more capable on a psychological level to sit in a trench for months, waiting for an enemy to appear (and would be glad of the peace). Space Marines would start to get antsy, and probably more than a little stressed out. Which can result in Heresy .

The Imperium can sometimes have trouble building and supplying Lasguns and flak armor to the masses, and now they should be building power armor and bolters at the same rate?

Hehehehe. Excellent satire, OP.

Because its impossible to create enough space marines to do the job. plain and simple.

The Imperial Army was formed during the crusade for the same reason.
There simply were not enough marines to go around and eventually 90%+ of conquering was being done by the Army with Space Marines being a Vangaurd force that smash defenses and things before moving on for the Steam Roller army to crush.

I'm gonna note that it's worth remembering that in the 40k universe, life itself is pretty cheap. Space Marines aren't

Guardsman are much easier to produce. That's really all it comes down to.

Why do Necron Warriors even exist?

Alcibiades wrote:
Why do Necron Warriors even exist?

Terminator. IN SPAAAAAAACCCEEE!

Because clever troll thread thinks he's clever.

XD surprised it went on this long.

Cadia nuff said. Also as the drawing pool for the guard is larger increasing the probability of tactical geniuses like creed to show up.

jhe90 wrote:
Because space marines are wasted on occupation, riot control and mundane guard duty or other man power intensive tasks that the guard are just so perfect for.

This. Special Forces are Special for a reason - they do the stuff you can't send the regular army to do. Take out a listening post, take out an enemy Commander, blow up a vital munitions warehouse or a space defense laser and so on. Using them on "lesser" duties is a waste of the resources that went into creating them. And those resources are not insignificant. A bolter, a suit of Power Armor, 6-10 years of training, arcane biological/surgical enhancements and psycho-indoctrination that make them so far above other men as to seem like gods of war at times...

How many guardsmen (or even tanks) could you get for the cost of one Space Marine? And what duties are there you can't handle with enough Guardsmen?

Only problem is that like half the SM fluff has them doing grunt warfare stuff that'd see most chapters destroyed in weeks XD

 Vaktathi wrote:
Only problem is that like half the SM fluff has them doing grunt warfare stuff that'd see most chapters destroyed in weeks XD

You know SM fluff is probably the most ridiculous out of the whole universe. 1,000 man chapters? That couldn't even sustain a planetary war. GW seems to be changing fluff more than a girl changes high heels yet they insist on leaving those chapters at 1,000 which makes zer0 logical sense. I have said this before and I will continue to say it. I think 10,000 man chapters with 50 companies of 200 men is the very least a chapter should contain. But noooooo lets stick with BS that gives SM's such a bad name.

Vaktathi wrote:Only problem is that like half the SM fluff has them doing grunt warfare stuff that'd see most chapters destroyed in weeks XD

Thankfully, they do at least have fluff here and there about chapters getting wiped out or nearly wiped out thanks to a single botched mission. Even big'uns like blood angels and ultramarines and crimson fists.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Only problem is that like half the SM fluff has them doing grunt warfare stuff that'd see most chapters destroyed in weeks XD

You know SM fluff is probably the most ridiculous out of the whole universe. 1,000 man chapters? That couldn't even sustain a planetary war. GW seems to be changing fluff more than a girl changes high heels yet they insist on leaving those chapters at 1,000 which makes zer0 logical sense. I have said this before and I will continue to say it. I think 10,000 man chapters with 50 companies of 200 men is the very least a chapter should contain. But noooooo lets stick with BS that gives SM's such a bad name.

I like 1000 man chapters...

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Only problem is that like half the SM fluff has them doing grunt warfare stuff that'd see most chapters destroyed in weeks XD

You know SM fluff is probably the most ridiculous out of the whole universe. 1,000 man chapters? That couldn't even sustain a planetary war. GW seems to be changing fluff more than a girl changes high heels yet they insist on leaving those chapters at 1,000 which makes zer0 logical sense. I have said this before and I will continue to say it. I think 10,000 man chapters with 50 companies of 200 men is the very least a chapter should contain. But noooooo lets stick with BS that gives SM's such a bad name.

Yeah, the 1000 chapters of 1000 marines just makes them so *rare* on a galactic scale as to be beyond mythical in battlefield presence

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Only problem is that like half the SM fluff has them doing grunt warfare stuff that'd see most chapters destroyed in weeks XD

You know SM fluff is probably the most ridiculous out of the whole universe. 1,000 man chapters? That couldn't even sustain a planetary war. GW seems to be changing fluff more than a girl changes high heels yet they insist on leaving those chapters at 1,000 which makes zer0 logical sense. I have said this before and I will continue to say it. I think 10,000 man chapters with 50 companies of 200 men is the very least a chapter should contain. But noooooo lets stick with BS that gives SM's such a bad name.

I like 1000 man chapters...

I wish I could like them, but I just don't see it.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Only problem is that like half the SM fluff has them doing grunt warfare stuff that'd see most chapters destroyed in weeks XD

You know SM fluff is probably the most ridiculous out of the whole universe. 1,000 man chapters? That couldn't even sustain a planetary war. GW seems to be changing fluff more than a girl changes high heels yet they insist on leaving those chapters at 1,000 which makes zer0 logical sense. I have said this before and I will continue to say it. I think 10,000 man chapters with 50 companies of 200 men is the very least a chapter should contain. But noooooo lets stick with BS that gives SM's such a bad name.

I like 1000 man chapters...

I wish I could like them, but I just don't see it.

I can make it work in my head.

Well, I'll post a lengthy explanation later. For now I am going to sleep, it is over 6 in the morning.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Only problem is that like half the SM fluff has them doing grunt warfare stuff that'd see most chapters destroyed in weeks XD

You know SM fluff is probably the most ridiculous out of the whole universe. 1,000 man chapters? That couldn't even sustain a planetary war. GW seems to be changing fluff more than a girl changes high heels yet they insist on leaving those chapters at 1,000 which makes zer0 logical sense. I have said this before and I will continue to say it. I think 10,000 man chapters with 50 companies of 200 men is the very least a chapter should contain. But noooooo lets stick with BS that gives SM's such a bad name.

Yeah, the 1000 chapters of 1000 marines just makes them so *rare* on a galactic scale as to be beyond mythical in battlefield presence

Too rare for me to be comfortable with. Space Marines are very powerful, but that power means nuthing if they're being gang raped by millions of tyranids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Only problem is that like half the SM fluff has them doing grunt warfare stuff that'd see most chapters destroyed in weeks XD

You know SM fluff is probably the most ridiculous out of the whole universe. 1,000 man chapters? That couldn't even sustain a planetary war. GW seems to be changing fluff more than a girl changes high heels yet they insist on leaving those chapters at 1,000 which makes zer0 logical sense. I have said this before and I will continue to say it. I think 10,000 man chapters with 50 companies of 200 men is the very least a chapter should contain. But noooooo lets stick with BS that gives SM's such a bad name.

I like 1000 man chapters...

I wish I could like them, but I just don't see it.

I can make it work in my head.

Well, I'll post a lengthy explanation later. For now I am going to sleep, it is over 6 in the morning.

Omg, way past your bedtime

Lord Tarkin wrote:1,000 man chapters? That couldn't even sustain a planetary war.

Space marines don't exist for sustained planetary war.

Stop confusing them with the imperial guard.

They don't, those are all Alpha Legionnaires.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
GW seems to be changing fluff more than a girl changes high heels

 Ailaros wrote:

Lord Tarkin wrote:1,000 man chapters? That couldn't even sustain a planetary war.

Space marines don't exist for sustained planetary war.

Stop confusing them with the imperial guard.

I wasn't inferring they do it by themselves. SM's need a larger army to be more successful, that's all I'm saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
GW seems to be changing fluff more than a girl changes high heels

Well, they do. My ex-gf did that gak all the time anywayyy, back on topic

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
GW seems to be changing fluff more than a girl changes high heels

Well, they do. My ex-gf did that gak all the time anywayyy, back on topic

Your ex-girlfriend did that. Okay. Now some girl beat you at sport, too. Does that mean “Girls beat you at sport all the time”?

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Lord Tarkin wrote:1,000 man chapters? That couldn't even sustain a planetary war.

Space marines don't exist for sustained planetary war.

Stop confusing them with the imperial guard.

I wasn't inferring they do it by themselves. SM's need a larger army to be more successful, that's all I'm saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
GW seems to be changing fluff more than a girl changes high heels

Well, they do. My ex-gf did that gak all the time anywayyy, back on topic

and the SMs have the larger army through the guard.

Do the Space Marines need larger numbers to be effective in a intergalatic campaign? absolutly. Space Marine Chapters are too small to single handedly engage in acts of galatic conquest...
This is working as intended. Following the Horus Heresy, Gulliman and the high lords DELIBERATLY CRIPPLED THE MILITARY.
He split the "Imperial Army" into two, creating the Imperial guard and the Imperial Navy, giving them fairly strongly defined roles apart from one another. all in an attempt to reduce the ability for a future Heresy. the Space Marines where kept as a self sufficant mobile reaction force (that self sufficancy is out side space marines non-existant in the IoM) however to stop the Marines from being a threat, Gulliman divided the legions into Chapters. sufficant for mobile fast reaction stuff and supporting the Guard etc, but in too small a number to parley their self sufficancy etc into a major threat.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
GW seems to be changing fluff more than a girl changes high heels

Well, they do. My ex-gf did that gak all the time anywayyy, back on topic

Your ex-girlfriend did that. Okay. Now some girl beat you at sport, too. Does that mean “Girls beat you at sport all the time”?

Huh?

Let me put it that way: using old and potentially offensive cliche like “black people are faster” or “girls like to change shoes all the time” are likely to make you quite unpopular, especially among people that do not fit those cliche.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Let me put it that way: using old and potentially offensive cliche like “black people are faster” or “girls like to change shoes all the time” are likely to make you quite unpopular, especially among people that do not fit those cliche.

Relax, do you have to be so sensitive?
Stop picking at my posts and trying to make me out to be the bad guy in every thread I'm involved in.

Alright guys, enough. This was originally a joke(while tipsy) but can actually be used to truly discuss the reasoning behind which the imperial guard serve, just as the space marine became that for them.

It takes five years after a space marine is successfully implanted with the geneseed before you can get another marine out of him with a second being able to be made ten years in. If even a small number of potential marines reject the implants you are five years from recovering one from a new recruite. Since they generally do not recover the second one until the marine is dead at best you could double the number of marines every five years assuming no deaths and every recruit took the implants without rejecting it. There are more imperial worlds then their are loyal marines right now. It would take thousands of years to even have a chance of making enough marines to actually make the imperial guard pointless and most of those marines would likely need to be equipped like storm troopers and use chimeras since it takes to long to produce most marine vehicles and equipment. So why not just take all the effort that would go into making that happen into making a billion guard regiments in the same time.

I am honestly with Oxayotl, stereotypes are unnecessary.

That said.

To answer the topic:

 Melissia wrote:
To sell models.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am honestly with Oxayotl, stereotypes are unnecessary.

That said.

To answer the topic:

 Melissia wrote:
To sell models.

I...am not stereotyping, it was a joke.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I...am not stereotyping, it was a joke.

Well, then you need to understand that since you are on the giving end of the joke, you might find your joke funny and entertaining because it is “new”, but for people on the receiving end, it is neither. They hear it all the time (from different, random people), and it gets annoying very, very fast.
I got a very tiny sample of that treatment because I am a vegetarian, so I can imagine how annoying these kind of jokes must be for women that are into male-dominated stuff like wargaming or video games or computers…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I...am not stereotyping, it was a joke.

Well, then you need to understand that since you are on the giving end of the joke, you might find your joke funny and entertaining because it is “new”, but for people on the receiving end, it is neither. They hear it all the time (from different, random people), and it gets annoying very, very fast.
I got a very tiny sample of that treatment because I am a vegetarian, so I can imagine how annoying these kind of jokes must be for women that are into male-dominated stuff like wargaming or video games or computers…

From the part you said you were "vegetarian" and on, you completely lost me.

Anyway, since you and others can't take a simple joke then I will retain a Mr. Scrooge attitude. Carry on.

 Ailaros wrote:

Lord Tarkin wrote:1,000 man chapters? That couldn't even sustain a planetary war.

Space marines don't exist for sustained planetary war.

Stop confusing them with the imperial guard.

The problem is that half their fluff has them doing exactly that....

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
From the part you said you were "vegetarian" and on, you completely lost me.

Allow me to explain. Upon learning that I am a vegetarian, a lot of people wants to joke or argue about it. That is not a problem in itself. But what gets annoying is that they all basically say variations of the same jokes/arguments. For them, it is something new. For me, it is that very same joke I have heard a billion time, or that same argument I have answered a billion times. Therefore, the jokes are not funny, and the arguments are not interesting. Both are just repetitive and annoying.
I am pretty sure all the “go make me a sandwich”, “you are angry because you are on your period”, and similar jokes must feel the same to women in male-dominated hobbies.

It is true that, unlike those examples, you were not actually targeting a specific user. But I am pretty confident it is going to be annoying for a girl that browse these forums because she likes to play Warhammer 40 000, and have no specific interest in changing high heels, to read broad generalizations like that. Just ask Ashiraya.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Anyway, since you and others can't take a simple joke then I will retain a Mr. Scrooge attitude. Carry on.

Jokes in general are okay. But jokes that make fun of people that perpetuate stereotypes would be more appreciated than jokes that perpetuate stereotype . Those can be harder to find, but end up being more original and funnier in the end.

Ok Lay off Lord Tarkin he made a joke get over it.

In all fairness Lord Tarkin what you should of done was quoted Katy Perry "GW changes their mind like a girl changes cloths" and you would not of been in this mess

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
From the part you said you were "vegetarian" and on, you completely lost me.

Allow me to explain. Upon learning that I am a vegetarian, a lot of people wants to joke or argue about it. That is not a problem in itself. But what gets annoying is that they all basically say variations of the same jokes/arguments. For them, it is something new. For me, it is that very same joke I have heard a billion time, or that same argument I have answered a billion times. Therefore, the jokes are not funny, and the arguments are not interesting. Both are just repetitive and annoying.
I am pretty sure all the “go make me a sandwich”, “you are angry because you are on your period”, and similar jokes must feel the same to women in male-dominated hobbies.

It is true that, unlike those examples, you were not actually targeting a specific user. But I am pretty confident it is going to be annoying for a girl that browse these forums because she likes to play Warhammer 40 000, and have no specific interest in changing high heels, to read broad generalizations like that. Just ask Ashiraya.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Anyway, since you and others can't take a simple joke then I will retain a Mr. Scrooge attitude. Carry on.

Jokes in general are okay. But jokes that make fun of people that perpetuate stereotypes would be more appreciated than jokes that perpetuate stereotype . Those can be harder to find, but end up being more original and funnier in the end.

Ok, whatever, I'm done.

Edit: you and Ashiraya can be mad all you want. I won't apologize for trying to be funny

Alpha 1 wrote:
In all fairness Lord Tarkin what you should of done was quoted Katy Perry "GW changes their mind like a girl changes cloths" and you would not of been in this mess

I fail to see the difference. Is that supposed to be better because it replaces shoes with clothes, or because it was sung by some singer?

Alpha 1 wrote:
Ok Lay off Lord Tarkin he made a joke get over it.

In all fairness Lord Tarkin what you should of done was quoted Katy Perry "GW changes their mind like a girl changes cloths" and you would not of been in this mess

Dammit, to be honest, I was typing that post in a hurry and I honestly didn't even think I'd get this much heat for it.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl that is the joke it is not any better the only difference is that it is a quote from a FEMALE singer and some different words. I thought the laughing Icon was self explanatory

Yeah, I know it is a female singer. There are some female singer singing pretty stupid stuff. I must fail at humor because I still do not see what is funny about it.

Mad? I am not mad. I've grown a thick skin over the years.

But Oxayotl has a point nonetheless. That kind of joke really gets old incredibly fast.

Tarkin, remember how offended you were when someone made fun of the US military? This situation is comparable.

Also, Oxayotl, are you as much of a defender IRL? I imagine you must be popular with the girls!

(Unless they are those idiots who think jerks are sexy)

 Ashiraya wrote:
Mad? I am not mad. I've grown a thick skin over the years.

But Oxayotl has a point nonetheless. That kind of joke really gets old incredibly fast.

Tarkin, remember how offended you were when someone made fun of the US military? This situation is comparable.

Also, Oxayotl, are you as much of a defender IRL? I imagine you must be popular with the girls!

(Unless they are those idiots who think jerks are sexy)

Oh, so I'm a jerk?? Ok

Edit: that situation wasn't comparable at all.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Mad? I am not mad. I've grown a thick skin over the years.

But Oxayotl has a point nonetheless. That kind of joke really gets old incredibly fast.

Tarkin, remember how offended you were when someone made fun of the US military? This situation is comparable.

Also, Oxayotl, are you as much of a defender IRL? I imagine you must be popular with the girls!

(Unless they are those idiots who think jerks are sexy)

Oh, so I'm a jerk?? Ok

Edit: that situation wasn't comparable at all.

It is. I just don't take offense because I can't be bothered any more. The guy who made a military joke meant no ill, either.

No one said you were a jerk. Your words were questioned, but no insults have been made. No need to go defensive.

That said, enough derailing now.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Mad? I am not mad. I've grown a thick skin over the years.

But Oxayotl has a point nonetheless. That kind of joke really gets old incredibly fast.

Tarkin, remember how offended you were when someone made fun of the US military? This situation is comparable.

Also, Oxayotl, are you as much of a defender IRL? I imagine you must be popular with the girls!

(Unless they are those idiots who think jerks are sexy)

Oh, so I'm a jerk?? Ok

Edit: that situation wasn't comparable at all.

It is. I just don't take offense because I can't be bothered any more. The guy who made a military joke meant no ill, either.

No one said you were a jerk. Your words were questioned, but no insults have been made. No need to go defensive.

That said, enough derailing now.

Naww, I know you infered I was a jerk but I'm willing to forget it.

And that GIRL did not make a joke. She called the U.S. military a joke but for the sake of derailing, I'm gonna leave it alone.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Mad? I am not mad. I've grown a thick skin over the years.

But Oxayotl has a point nonetheless. That kind of joke really gets old incredibly fast.

Tarkin, remember how offended you were when someone made fun of the US military? This situation is comparable.

Also, Oxayotl, are you as much of a defender IRL? I imagine you must be popular with the girls!

(Unless they are those idiots who think jerks are sexy)

Oh, so I'm a jerk?? Ok

Edit: that situation wasn't comparable at all.

It is. I just don't take offense because I can't be bothered any more. The guy who made a military joke meant no ill, either.

No one said you were a jerk. Your words were questioned, but no insults have been made. No need to go defensive.

That said, enough derailing now.

Naww, I know you infered I was a jerk but I'm willing to forget it.

And that GIRL did not make a joke. She called the U.S. military a joke but for the sake of derailing, I'm gonna leave it alone.

Was that when someone reasonably explained what and why someone said something and you completely over reacted?

This is a thread about how some poor souls have not seen the light. Peoples who have been kept in the dark about the truth. Those who are blind to the evidence.

Those who need to learn why the Imperial guard are the best and only race in the 40k universe. Everyone else is there to die by their might.

So lets keep this thread on the path to enlightenment Search your souls and realize the true problem is the lack of knowledge on the power and might of the emperors mighty force.

pm713 wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Mad? I am not mad. I've grown a thick skin over the years.

But Oxayotl has a point nonetheless. That kind of joke really gets old incredibly fast.

Tarkin, remember how offended you were when someone made fun of the US military? This situation is comparable.

Also, Oxayotl, are you as much of a defender IRL? I imagine you must be popular with the girls!

(Unless they are those idiots who think jerks are sexy)

Oh, so I'm a jerk?? Ok

Edit: that situation wasn't comparable at all.

It is. I just don't take offense because I can't be bothered any more. The guy who made a military joke meant no ill, either.

No one said you were a jerk. Your words were questioned, but no insults have been made. No need to go defensive.

That said, enough derailing now.

Naww, I know you infered I was a jerk but I'm willing to forget it.

And that GIRL did not make a joke. She called the U.S. military a joke but for the sake of derailing, I'm gonna leave it alone.

Was that when someone reasonably explained what and why someone said something and you completely over reacted?

Aww gak, not you again. C'mon dude, do we really need to bring this up? Let's all just talk about how stupid and ignorant I am. Go on, let it out. I know you want to.

Edit: thanks a lot Ashiraya. Really appreciate you bringing that up

Because somebody has to make Space Marines look awesome by comparison.

And the space marines have to make Ultramarines look best

Flamebait Central, coming right up!

 Ashiraya wrote:
Also, Oxayotl, are you as much of a defender IRL?

I would be if I was not quite shy about confrontation IRL, and more self-confident, I guess.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I imagine you must be popular with the girls!

I am not. Not at all .
I do not know why, so I do not know what I should change, but I am trying.
See the related thread in Off-Topic.

Lord Tarkin, we are not attacking you personally, we are explaining our point of view. We do not want to paint you in a bad light, we want to explain you how we could see you in a better light!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Also, Oxayotl, are you as much of a defender IRL?

I would be if I was not quite shy about confrontation IRL, and more self-confident, I guess.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I imagine you must be popular with the girls!

I am not. Not at all .
I do not know why, so I do not know what I should change, but I am trying.
See the related thread in Off-Topic.

Lord Tarkin, we are not attacking you personally, we are explaining our point of view. We do not want to paint you in a bad light, we want to explain you how we could see you in a better light!

Which off-topic thread is this you talk about?

I will never be in good light to be quite frank, I enjoy the darkness

Wait........didn't this thread used to be about Space Marines and Imperial Guard?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Wait........didn't this thread used to be about Space Marines and Imperial Guard?

It was until Chaos showed up

you can't make everyone space marines. you can make a lot of people imperial guard. infact millions.

 megatombuscus wrote:
you can't make everyone space marines. you can make a lot of people imperial guard. infact millions.

Try billons of

Because Space Marines are, in-universe, too expensive to use as front-line soldiers. Even in the Horus Heresy they were never in high enough numbers for proper, unsupported planetary invasions.

 Ribon Fox wrote:

 megatombuscus wrote:
you can't make everyone space marines. you can make a lot of people imperial guard. infact millions.

Try billons of

Given the whole, "million worlds" thing it should be more like tens or hundreds of billions.

As people have said, you just can't get those numbers with SM. The process of turning them from normal humans to Astartes is expensive, requires young men in peak physical condition, and most subjects die anyway, the equipment is expensive to build and maintain, and, they can't reproduce, meaning that too many SM's will put a dent in the IoM's human population. They're also culturally and religiously separate from the rest of the IoM, meaning that if you're in a group like the Ecclesiarchy, you don't entirely trust them.

Eh, imo it's more just a matter of 40K being dumb at scale and in-universe, the Imperium deliberately neutering Chapters.

Single chapters get the entirety of their recruits from individual worlds- one chapter, one world. A single world somehow provides enough individuals to sustain an entire chapter.

If the Imperium took one person from each of their Worlds and made them Space Marines, their would be "billions" of Space Marines. If they took just 100 people from a quarter of their Worlds, and turned them into Space Marines, that would make (assuming that "billions"=just 2 billion) 50 billion Space Marines. A force ~386 times larger than the combined Imperial Guard force currently fighting in the 13th Black Crusade- and that's assuming that every Regiment participating in the Crusade has 100,000 troops in it, which is unrealistic considering that 100,000 men is listed as an upper limit for Regiment sizes.

So. You clearly begin to see how messed up the 40K scale is.

Going by in-universe conditions, you can make the argument that the Imperium would struggle to logistically support a Marine army of such size, due to the complexity of their armor and weapons. Considering how massively large the Imperium is though, I'm skeptical of that. With STC's and the amount of man-power, resources and factories within the Imperium, I think they could very easily meet the demands required. The only issue I see would be the Mechanicus' superstition and obsession with rituals slowing the process down, but that's another example of the Imperium just deliberately neutering themselves- that and the Adeptus Astartes.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Eh, imo it's more just a matter of 40K being dumb at scale and in-universe, the Imperium deliberately neutering Chapters.

Single chapters get the entirety of their recruits from individual worlds- one chapter, one world. A single world somehow provides enough individuals to sustain an entire chapter.

If the Imperium took one person from each of their Worlds and made them Space Marines, their would be "billions" of Space Marines.

Wut?

Did you miss the prologue to the 40k universe? 1 man per planet is going to be around 1 million men. That is only a thousandth of what you've come up with...

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Eh, imo it's more just a matter of 40K being dumb at scale and in-universe, the Imperium deliberately neutering Chapters.

Single chapters get the entirety of their recruits from individual worlds- one chapter, one world. A single world somehow provides enough individuals to sustain an entire chapter.

If the Imperium took one person from each of their Worlds and made them Space Marines, their would be "billions" of Space Marines. If they took just 100 people from a quarter of their Worlds, and turned them into Space Marines, that would make (assuming that "billions"=just 2 billion) 50 billion Space Marines. A force ~386 times larger than the combined Imperial Guard force currently fighting in the 13th Black Crusade- and that's assuming that every Regiment participating in the Crusade has 100,000 troops in it, which is unrealistic considering that 100,000 men is listed as an upper limit for Regiment sizes.

Not quite true. Many chapters recruit from multiple worlds. There is also the fact that the preferred recruiting worlds are death worlds, hive worlds, etc, were life is tough, and only the strongest survive. There is also the rituals that hopefuls go through, and many die during the transformation.

Also, the sheer size of the Imperium is what prevents the Imperium from providing weapons to the Chapters. The logistics simply don't work, and that is the major problem with the Imperium.

You're right. They have millions of Worlds and billions of Regiments- not billions of Worlds.

You've embarrassed me on an international forum. Are you happy now?!

 BlaxicanX wrote:

You've embarrassed me on an international forum. Are you happy now?!

I'm not sure where this is going.

Mostly, the only time the Imperium was able to have many thousands of Marines per-Chapter was at the absolute height of their power and technology. Then that whole thing about a massive civil war and 10,000 years of technological stagnation happened.

99.99howevermany9syouwant % of conflicts will never see a single Marine. It's the only way their number can make sense at all. Most of those other conflicts can be won (or at least fought to a standstill) by Guard alone. Marines are only deployed to the most critical, tide-turning points in the galaxy.

As for Guard numbers, I've always felt like a trillion was a good rough estimate for how many there should be. If there are a million inhabited worlds, and we assume an average population of a billion (with vast deviations from the average...for every Hive world of two hundred billion, you can average it out with a couple hundred worlds whose tiny population devoted to resource extraction or garrison is effectively a rounding error), that suggests a quadrillion humans. Having 0.1% of the population tithed to the Guard, with several times as many committed to PDF, seems like a fairly small (check out this list of modern military numbers and sort by per capita) commitment.

Oh, and I just want to point out that while we're getting into ludicrous numbers here, one quadrillion humans in the Imperium means roughly one per ant alive today (estimated).

BlaxicanX wrote:You've embarrassed me on an international forum. Are you happy now?!

Nope, there's only one way this can be settled.

 Bludbaff wrote:
99.99howevermany9syouwant % of conflicts will never see a single Marine. It's the only way their number can make sense at all. Most of those other conflicts can be won (or at least fought to a standstill) by Guard alone. Marines are only deployed to the most critical, tide-turning points in the galaxy.

As for Guard numbers, I've always felt like a trillion was a good rough estimate for how many there should be. If there are a million inhabited worlds, and we assume an average population of a billion (with vast deviations from the average...for every Hive world of two hundred billion, you can average it out with a couple hundred worlds whose tiny population devoted to resource extraction or garrison is effectively a rounding error), that suggests a quadrillion humans. Having 0.1% of the population tithed to the Guard, with several times as many committed to PDF, seems like a fairly small (check out this list of modern military numbers and sort by per capita) commitment.

Oh, and I just want to point out that while we're getting into ludicrous numbers here, one quadrillion humans in the Imperium means roughly one per ant alive today (estimated).

Now you wait just a Terran second!!!

Let me math hammer this stuff out. The most common world in the Imperium is the Civilized world. Populations usually range between 15,000,000 to 10,000,000,000 and the average of those numbers is 4,992,500,000. So most Imperial planets will come close to 4,992,500,000.

Now, the most common tithe grade associated with IG tithes is one tenth of the planets PDF. Assuming one of every 20 people join the PDF, that leaves 249,625,000 PDF troops. One tenth of that number would come to 24,962,500 new guardsmen.

There are about 1,000,000 worlds in the Imperium, so 1,000,000•24,962,500=24,962,500,000,000.

So there are on average, trillions of guardsmen in the Imperium at any given time.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
99.99howevermany9syouwant % of conflicts will never see a single Marine. It's the only way their number can make sense at all. Most of those other conflicts can be won (or at least fought to a standstill) by Guard alone. Marines are only deployed to the most critical, tide-turning points in the galaxy.

As for Guard numbers, I've always felt like a trillion was a good rough estimate for how many there should be. If there are a million inhabited worlds, and we assume an average population of a billion (with vast deviations from the average...for every Hive world of two hundred billion, you can average it out with a couple hundred worlds whose tiny population devoted to resource extraction or garrison is effectively a rounding error), that suggests a quadrillion humans. Having 0.1% of the population tithed to the Guard, with several times as many committed to PDF, seems like a fairly small (check out this list of modern military numbers and sort by per capita) commitment.

Oh, and I just want to point out that while we're getting into ludicrous numbers here, one quadrillion humans in the Imperium means roughly one per ant alive today (estimated).

Now you wait just a Terran second!!!

Let me math hammer this stuff out. The most common world in the Imperium is the Civilized world. Populations usually range between 15,000,000 to 10,000,000,000 and the average of those numbers is 4,992,500,000. So most Imperial planets will come close to 4,992,500,000.

Now, the most common tithe grade associated with IG tithes is one tenth of the planets PDF. Assuming one of every 20 people join the PDF, that leaves 249,625,000 PDF troops. One tenth of that number would come to 24,962,500 new guardsmen.

There are about 1,000,000 worlds in the Imperium, so 1,000,000•24,962,500=24,962,500,000,000.

So there are on average, trillions of guardsmen in the Imperium at any given time.

I like those odds!

 Selym wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
99.99howevermany9syouwant % of conflicts will never see a single Marine. It's the only way their number can make sense at all. Most of those other conflicts can be won (or at least fought to a standstill) by Guard alone. Marines are only deployed to the most critical, tide-turning points in the galaxy.

As for Guard numbers, I've always felt like a trillion was a good rough estimate for how many there should be. If there are a million inhabited worlds, and we assume an average population of a billion (with vast deviations from the average...for every Hive world of two hundred billion, you can average it out with a couple hundred worlds whose tiny population devoted to resource extraction or garrison is effectively a rounding error), that suggests a quadrillion humans. Having 0.1% of the population tithed to the Guard, with several times as many committed to PDF, seems like a fairly small (check out this list of modern military numbers and sort by per capita) commitment.

Oh, and I just want to point out that while we're getting into ludicrous numbers here, one quadrillion humans in the Imperium means roughly one per ant alive today (estimated).

Now you wait just a Terran second!!!

Let me math hammer this stuff out. The most common world in the Imperium is the Civilized world. Populations usually range between 15,000,000 to 10,000,000,000 and the average of those numbers is 4,992,500,000. So most Imperial planets will come close to 4,992,500,000.

Now, the most common tithe grade associated with IG tithes is one tenth of the planets PDF. Assuming one of every 20 people join the PDF, that leaves 249,625,000 PDF troops. One tenth of that number would come to 24,962,500 new guardsmen.

There are about 1,000,000 worlds in the Imperium, so 1,000,000•24,962,500=24,962,500,000,000.

So there are on average, trillions of guardsmen in the Imperium at any given time.

Never tell me the odds!

Fixed that for you.

 Selym wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
99.99howevermany9syouwant % of conflicts will never see a single Marine. It's the only way their number can make sense at all. Most of those other conflicts can be won (or at least fought to a standstill) by Guard alone. Marines are only deployed to the most critical, tide-turning points in the galaxy.

As for Guard numbers, I've always felt like a trillion was a good rough estimate for how many there should be. If there are a million inhabited worlds, and we assume an average population of a billion (with vast deviations from the average...for every Hive world of two hundred billion, you can average it out with a couple hundred worlds whose tiny population devoted to resource extraction or garrison is effectively a rounding error), that suggests a quadrillion humans. Having 0.1% of the population tithed to the Guard, with several times as many committed to PDF, seems like a fairly small (check out this list of modern military numbers and sort by per capita) commitment.

Oh, and I just want to point out that while we're getting into ludicrous numbers here, one quadrillion humans in the Imperium means roughly one per ant alive today (estimated).

Now you wait just a Terran second!!!

Let me math hammer this stuff out. The most common world in the Imperium is the Civilized world. Populations usually range between 15,000,000 to 10,000,000,000 and the average of those numbers is 4,992,500,000. So most Imperial planets will come close to 4,992,500,000.

Now, the most common tithe grade associated with IG tithes is one tenth of the planets PDF. Assuming one of every 20 people join the PDF, that leaves 249,625,000 PDF troops. One tenth of that number would come to 24,962,500 new guardsmen.

There are about 1,000,000 worlds in the Imperium, so 1,000,000•24,962,500=24,962,500,000,000.

So there are on average, trillions of guardsmen in the Imperium at any given time.

I like those odds!

I love those odds!

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
99.99howevermany9syouwant % of conflicts will never see a single Marine. It's the only way their number can make sense at all. Most of those other conflicts can be won (or at least fought to a standstill) by Guard alone. Marines are only deployed to the most critical, tide-turning points in the galaxy.

As for Guard numbers, I've always felt like a trillion was a good rough estimate for how many there should be. If there are a million inhabited worlds, and we assume an average population of a billion (with vast deviations from the average...for every Hive world of two hundred billion, you can average it out with a couple hundred worlds whose tiny population devoted to resource extraction or garrison is effectively a rounding error), that suggests a quadrillion humans. Having 0.1% of the population tithed to the Guard, with several times as many committed to PDF, seems like a fairly small (check out this list of modern military numbers and sort by per capita) commitment.

Oh, and I just want to point out that while we're getting into ludicrous numbers here, one quadrillion humans in the Imperium means roughly one per ant alive today (estimated).

Now you wait just a Terran second!!!

Let me math hammer this stuff out. The most common world in the Imperium is the Civilized world. Populations usually range between 15,000,000 to 10,000,000,000 and the average of those numbers is 4,992,500,000. So most Imperial planets will come close to 4,992,500,000.

Now, the most common tithe grade associated with IG tithes is one tenth of the planets PDF. Assuming one of every 20 people join the PDF, that leaves 249,625,000 PDF troops. One tenth of that number would come to 24,962,500 new guardsmen.

There are about 1,000,000 worlds in the Imperium, so 1,000,000•24,962,500=24,962,500,000,000.

So there are on average, trillions of guardsmen in the Imperium at any given time.

Never tell me the odds!

Fixed that for you.

Why not make all guard millitarium then and do away with the guard

the ancient wrote:
Why not make all guard millitarium then and do away with the guard

Then you have no cannon fodder. Plus it takes resources time etc etc.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Space Marines are very powerful, but that power means nuthing if they're being gang raped by millions of tyranids.

It's sad to say that it doesn't surprise me that nobody called Tarkin out on this, and instead went for the high heels thing. I'm done being courteous and sending people PMs when they say things like this. Does anyone want to elaborate on why this is not an okay thing to say, or am I just going to learn to hate Dakka?

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Space Marines are very powerful, but that power means nuthing if they're being gang raped by millions of tyranids.

It's sad to say that it doesn't surprise me that nobody called Tarkin out on this, and instead went for the high heels thing. I'm done being courteous and sending people PMs when they say things like this. Does anyone want to elaborate on why this is not an okay thing to say, or am I just going to learn to hate Dakka?

What's so terrible about it?

Edit: fine I'll go dammit, just stop breaking my balls already.

Because it happens too often for me to bother complaining. No, it's not cool, but unless it is the US military being joked about he won't care, and I can't be arsed with more drama.

You are right. I should have reacted to that too.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
You are right. I should have reacted to that too.

Admittedly, yes. I should get my head out of my butt.

 Ailaros wrote:
Two critical flaws:

Lshowell wrote:With the Space Marines being superior in every way shape and form

They're not. They are better in SOME ways, but not in ALL ways. For example, there are WAY more guardsmen than marines. As said, the imperium would instantly evaporate if it were just up to marines to defend it.
And the fact that there are so few marines points to their other problems, such as...

Lshowell wrote: and if wanted to we could force more second, or third if you will, foundings,

... this. The imperium may WANT more marines, but that doesn't mean they get them.
Space marines are incredibly difficult to create, and take a lot of resources. They take decades to train, and they absorb vast quantities of materiel what with their sacred-oils-blessed-bolters instead of infinite ammo lasguns, and the inefficiency of each chapter maintaining its own fleet and the strategic difficulties of letting them go off and pick their own objectives.
And all of it is completely wasted when you have, say, a war that just needs to be won by attrition. Guardsmen are MUCH better in that strategic role, and in many others as well (defending far-flung listening posts, acting as a local police force, etc. etc.)
Space marines are very good at what they do, and sometimes what you need is to call in the special forces for a complicated, dangerous mission where money is no object. That is far from all the time, though.

This comes up all the time and the answer is always what ailaros just mentioned. Cost. The IoM does not have limitless resources, just as the US does not have limitless resources, just as no one on the planet has limitless resources.

Marines are best at assaulting hardened targets and as a way of increasing force concentration. Guard do most all other jobs better because they do it at a far lower price.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Space Marines are very powerful, but that power means nuthing if they're being gang raped by millions of tyranids.

It's sad to say that it doesn't surprise me that nobody called Tarkin out on this, and instead went for the high heels thing. I'm done being courteous and sending people PMs when they say things like this. Does anyone want to elaborate on why this is not an okay thing to say, or am I just going to learn to hate Dakka?

What's so terrible about it?

Rape is not a funny thing to joke about. It is something that traumatizes its victims & which a number of the board members would prefer you not to make jokes about. A simple matter of being gracious enough to think about other's opinions & sensitivities, no?

I don't see any joke there.

A strange argument to make though. If referencing rape in your statements traumatizes its victims, then wouldn't referencing murder, terrorism and other horrific things that effect hundreds of millions of people world wide traumatize the victims of those incidents, as well?

In fact... wouldn't merely discussing 40K, a universe that glorifies or at the very least heavily promotes mass amounts of graphic violence and suffering therefore traumatize individuals who have suffered at the hands of similar violence in real life?

You know, in BlaxicanX's defense (... a thing I never thought I would be saying...), I like to think of there being far more than "a million worlds" myself.

A million is a pretty small number.

 BlaxicanX wrote:


Going by in-universe conditions, you can make the argument that the Imperium would struggle to logistically support a Marine army of such size, due to the complexity of their armor and weapons. Considering how massively large the Imperium is though, I'm skeptical of that. With STC's and the amount of man-power, resources and factories within the Imperium, I think they could very easily meet the demands required. The only issue I see would be the Mechanicus' superstition and obsession with rituals slowing the process down, but that's another example of the Imperium just deliberately neutering themselves- that and the Adeptus Astartes.

Depends what kind of resources are consumed creating marines and marine arms and armor. All the cermite and plastisteel doesn't seem to be naturally occuring and needs to be processed. Plasmaguns dont grow on trees. The admech is not able to maintain the machines they have, nor are they able to increase the number of skilled mechanics they have.

A humble bolter is supposed to be a carefully cared for, hand crafted device that took a long time to produce. The admech could produce 100 lasguns or 1 bolter. Hence they do not issue bolters to everyone, or 99% of the imperial guard would be running into battle without guns, Russian style.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't see any joke there.

A strange argument to make though. If referencing rape in your statements traumatizes its victims, then wouldn't referencing murder, terrorism and other horrific things that effect hundreds of millions of people world wide traumatize the victims of those incidents, as well?

In fact... wouldn't merely discussing 40K, a universe that glorifies or at the very least heavily promotes mass amounts of graphic violence and suffering therefore traumatize individuals who have suffered at the hands of similar violence in real life?

I don't think anyone would be complaining if he said something along the lines of "Slaaneshi cultists sometimes rape people". I reference Slaanesh' propensity for rape every time I bring up the Grey Knights and no one's ever complained.

It's that he used the term "rape" in a casual manner where no one was actually being raped, meaning the comment could be considered inappropriate and insensitive.

In theory anyway. I didn't really care.

 Exergy wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:


Going by in-universe conditions, you can make the argument that the Imperium would struggle to logistically support a Marine army of such size, due to the complexity of their armor and weapons. Considering how massively large the Imperium is though, I'm skeptical of that. With STC's and the amount of man-power, resources and factories within the Imperium, I think they could very easily meet the demands required. The only issue I see would be the Mechanicus' superstition and obsession with rituals slowing the process down, but that's another example of the Imperium just deliberately neutering themselves- that and the Adeptus Astartes.

Depends what kind of resources are consumed creating marines and marine arms and armor. All the cermite and plastisteel doesn't seem to be naturally occuring and needs to be processed. Plasmaguns dont grow on trees. The admech is not able to maintain the machines they have, nor are they able to increase the number of skilled mechanics they have.

A humble bolter is supposed to be a carefully cared for, hand crafted device that took a long time to produce. The admech could produce 100 lasguns or 1 bolter. Hence they do not issue bolters to everyone, or 99% of the imperial guard would be running into battle without guns, Russian style.

True, but this again comes back to the scale.

With how massive the Imperium is, even with a 100:1 lasgun-bolter ratio, the Imperium could, if they wanted to, supply enough bolters for 50 billion Space Marines.

The United States, alone, builds ~6 million guns a year, for reference. Granted, a bolter is far more complex than any of the small-arms we have today, but that's a single country on a single World, without any of the 38,000 years of improvements to mass-production technology. If we assume that it's as easy for a Mechanicus forge to build a Lasgun as it is for us to build a rifle, that would mean that the US, with Mechanicus tech/know-how, could build 60,000 bolt guns by itself annually.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's that he used the term "rape" in a casual manner where no one was actually being raped, meaning the comment could be considered inappropriate and insensitive.

It could be, but then by that logic me saying "I'm about to murder your argument" could also be considered insensitive to the act of murder.

Which would be dumb and worthy of all contempt, mah boi.

 Melissia wrote:
You know, in BlaxicanX's defense (... a thing I never thought I would be saying...), I like to think of there being far more than "a million worlds" myself.

A million is a pretty small number.

That's true and in a perfect world the writers of 40k would have a better sense of scale, but million is sadly the number that's always referenced.

Also so tsundere.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:


Going by in-universe conditions, you can make the argument that the Imperium would struggle to logistically support a Marine army of such size, due to the complexity of their armor and weapons. Considering how massively large the Imperium is though, I'm skeptical of that. With STC's and the amount of man-power, resources and factories within the Imperium, I think they could very easily meet the demands required. The only issue I see would be the Mechanicus' superstition and obsession with rituals slowing the process down, but that's another example of the Imperium just deliberately neutering themselves- that and the Adeptus Astartes.

Depends what kind of resources are consumed creating marines and marine arms and armor. All the cermite and plastisteel doesn't seem to be naturally occuring and needs to be processed. Plasmaguns dont grow on trees. The admech is not able to maintain the machines they have, nor are they able to increase the number of skilled mechanics they have.

A humble bolter is supposed to be a carefully cared for, hand crafted device that took a long time to produce. The admech could produce 100 lasguns or 1 bolter. Hence they do not issue bolters to everyone, or 99% of the imperial guard would be running into battle without guns, Russian style.

True, but this again comes back to the scale.

With how massive the Imperium is, even with a 100:1 lasgun-bolter ratio, the Imperium could, if they wanted to, supply enough bolters for 50 billion Space Marines.

The United States, alone, builds ~6 million guns a year, for reference. Granted, a bolter is far more complex than any of the small-arms we have today, but that's a single country on a single World, without any of the 38,000 years of improvements to mass-production technology. If we assume that it's as easy for a Mechanicus forge to build a Lasgun as it is for us to build a rifle, that would mean that the US, with Mechanicus tech/know-how, could build 60,000 bolt guns by itself annually.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's that he used the term "rape" in a casual manner where no one was actually being raped, meaning the comment could be considered inappropriate and insensitive.

It could be, but then by that logic me saying "I'm about to murder your argument" could also be considered insensitive to the act of murder.

Which would be dumb and worthy of all contempt, mah boi.

thanks political correct police, but can we quit nitpicking random people's casual and loose use of words that may be offensive to some when there are bigger problems. Like starvation, actual rape, and ebola. Lets just choose to ignore stuff we donr like and quit working ourselves into rages and argueing woth people who in all likelyhood dont care. I learned that the hard way on these forums.

Tldr:
Lets ignore stuff that offends us and quit arguing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, do we want this thread shut down? If not just ignore stuff.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:


Going by in-universe conditions, you can make the argument that the Imperium would struggle to logistically support a Marine army of such size, due to the complexity of their armor and weapons. Considering how massively large the Imperium is though, I'm skeptical of that. With STC's and the amount of man-power, resources and factories within the Imperium, I think they could very easily meet the demands required. The only issue I see would be the Mechanicus' superstition and obsession with rituals slowing the process down, but that's another example of the Imperium just deliberately neutering themselves- that and the Adeptus Astartes.

Depends what kind of resources are consumed creating marines and marine arms and armor. All the cermite and plastisteel doesn't seem to be naturally occuring and needs to be processed. Plasmaguns dont grow on trees. The admech is not able to maintain the machines they have, nor are they able to increase the number of skilled mechanics they have.

A humble bolter is supposed to be a carefully cared for, hand crafted device that took a long time to produce. The admech could produce 100 lasguns or 1 bolter. Hence they do not issue bolters to everyone, or 99% of the imperial guard would be running into battle without guns, Russian style.

True, but this again comes back to the scale.

With how massive the Imperium is, even with a 100:1 lasgun-bolter ratio, the Imperium could, if they wanted to, supply enough bolters for 50 billion Space Marines.

The United States, alone, builds ~6 million guns a year, for reference. Granted, a bolter is far more complex than any of the small-arms we have today, but that's a single country on a single World, without any of the 38,000 years of improvements to mass-production technology. If we assume that it's as easy for a Mechanicus forge to build a Lasgun as it is for us to build a rifle, that would mean that the US, with Mechanicus tech/know-how, could build 60,000 bolt guns by itself annually.

Tis true, but look how each successive gun/tank/aircraft the US buys gets progressively more expensive. Look how each new more advanced thing they go for means they end up having less. The US population is larger today than it was in 1950. It is more prosperous. It spends a larger % of its budget on defense. And yet it has less soldiers, less tanks, and less aircraft.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
thanks political correct police, but can we quit nitpicking random people's casual and loose use of words that may be offensive to some when there are bigger problems.

I would ask you the same question.

 Exergy wrote:
Tis true, but look how each successive gun/tank/aircraft the US buys gets progressively more expensive. Look how each new more advanced thing they go for means they end up having less. The US population is larger today than it was in 1950. It is more prosperous. It spends a larger % of its budget on defense. And yet it has less soldiers, less tanks, and less aircraft.

I think that's a good parallel to what would happen if the Imperium invested in a Spece Muhreen army. A Space Marine, much like a jet fighter or a drone or something, might individually be vastly more expensive to equip and train than a regular joe, but the flip-side is that the level of extra efficiency you get compensates for the resources spent. It costs the US hundreds to thousands of dollars every time an aircraft fires a missile, but the result is that we can more or less have a powerful and productive military with far less man-power required.

 Exergy wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:


Going by in-universe conditions, you can make the argument that the Imperium would struggle to logistically support a Marine army of such size, due to the complexity of their armor and weapons. Considering how massively large the Imperium is though, I'm skeptical of that. With STC's and the amount of man-power, resources and factories within the Imperium, I think they could very easily meet the demands required. The only issue I see would be the Mechanicus' superstition and obsession with rituals slowing the process down, but that's another example of the Imperium just deliberately neutering themselves- that and the Adeptus Astartes.

Depends what kind of resources are consumed creating marines and marine arms and armor. All the cermite and plastisteel doesn't seem to be naturally occuring and needs to be processed. Plasmaguns dont grow on trees. The admech is not able to maintain the machines they have, nor are they able to increase the number of skilled mechanics they have.

A humble bolter is supposed to be a carefully cared for, hand crafted device that took a long time to produce. The admech could produce 100 lasguns or 1 bolter. Hence they do not issue bolters to everyone, or 99% of the imperial guard would be running into battle without guns, Russian style.

True, but this again comes back to the scale.

With how massive the Imperium is, even with a 100:1 lasgun-bolter ratio, the Imperium could, if they wanted to, supply enough bolters for 50 billion Space Marines.

The United States, alone, builds ~6 million guns a year, for reference. Granted, a bolter is far more complex than any of the small-arms we have today, but that's a single country on a single World, without any of the 38,000 years of improvements to mass-production technology. If we assume that it's as easy for a Mechanicus forge to build a Lasgun as it is for us to build a rifle, that would mean that the US, with Mechanicus tech/know-how, could build 60,000 bolt guns by itself annually.

Tis true, but look how each successive gun/tank/aircraft the US buys gets progressively more expensive. Look how each new more advanced thing they go for means they end up having less. The US population is larger today than it was in 1950. It is more prosperous. It spends a larger % of its budget on defense. And yet it has less soldiers, less tanks, and less aircraft.

Who is easier to equip:

24,962,500,000,000 guardsmen or 1,000,000 SM's?

I mean, that's what it ultimately comes down to is numbers. Perhaps it does take the same amount of time to create 100 lasguns compared to a single bolter but there are still almost 25 trillion guardsmen around the Imperium that need to be equiped. I would imagine feeding those masses would be more difficult than 1,000,000 SM's.

Guard are like the army, whereas space marines would be elite special forces teams.

While the Space Marines are good at what they do, they are not there for policing the Imperium and fighting the dregs of the galaxy.

That's what the guard is for. The guard are sent in, en masse, to obliterate a foe.

If the foe is exceedingly difficult/dangerous, then the Imperium will send in some Space Marines in hopes of ending the threat.

Even from a resources stand point? Its easier to equip untold numbers of guardsmen with armor, weapons, rations and ammo than it is to attempt to rebuild things from the dark age of technology, grow a geneseed, implant a geneseed, train the new marine, hope the new marine doesn't die from the implantation of all the special organs and gear (which also have to grown), etc.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
thanks political correct police, but can we quit nitpicking random people's casual and loose use of words that may be offensive to some when there are bigger problems.

I would ask you the same question.

I learned what I said the 'ard way via several arguments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What i never understood was why the marines were never like actual marines, the first ones the ground. Used for special missions, surgical strikes and breaking the front line forthe inevitable hammer blow of the army/ in this case guard.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't see any joke there.

A strange argument to make though. If referencing rape in your statements traumatizes its victims, then wouldn't referencing murder, terrorism and other horrific things that effect hundreds of millions of people world wide traumatize the victims of those incidents, as well?

In fact... wouldn't merely discussing 40K, a universe that glorifies or at the very least heavily promotes mass amounts of graphic violence and suffering therefore traumatize individuals who have suffered at the hands of similar violence in real life?

While I'm inclined to agree that referring to gang rape should be rethought, you do have a point.

Dakka, and the internet at large, has no problems talking about holocausts, murder, terror acts etc, but then goes a bit square-eyed at mentions of rape.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
You know, in BlaxicanX's defense (... a thing I never thought I would be saying...), I like to think of there being far more than "a million worlds" myself.

A million is a pretty small number.

That's true and in a perfect world the writers of 40k would have a better sense of scale, but million is sadly the number that's always referenced.

At the time of first writing, a million seemed far larger than it does now. At the time, we weren't even sure that earth-like planets even existed in the galaxy, and terraforming wasn't exactly a well-known concept.
These days, we are familliar with counting things in the billions/trillions, and have a better sense of universal scale.

Someone has to call the mighty Astartes for help.

I mean, why does Bowser employ all those Goombas?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Dakka, and the internet at large, has no problems talking about holocausts, murder, terror acts etc, but then goes a bit square-eyed at mentions of rape.

As much as I can surmise it's really just two or three people finding issue with it and a handful falling over themselves to agree, more to be politically correct than anything. Had the former not sparked this quarrel I don't think there would be any discussion at all over the post, and this thread would be at least 60% less drama with more interesting posts about the might of the Imperium.

Speaking of which, I've always considered the SM the 'Hammer' of the Imperium's martial might. You have a trillion guardsmen (as someone pointed out above) to do what they're best at - slowing the enemy down with their dead and dying corpses - while you have the more specialist elements dancing around and plugging the holes in that wall of bodies. Life is cheap in 40k, a suit of flak armor is probably more valuable than the soldier wearing it with IoM's pop density.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
thanks political correct police, but can we quit nitpicking random people's casual and loose use of words that may be offensive to some when there are bigger problems.

I would ask you the same question.

I learned what I said the 'ard way via several arguments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What i never understood was why the marines were never like actual marines, the first ones the ground. Used for special missions, surgical strikes and breaking the front line forthe inevitable hammer blow of the army/ in this case guard.

Or playing the role of the SAS, and making high-profile enemy groups wet themselves with terror by suddenyl dropping out of the sky one day, destroying everything, and the buggering off ASAP with a ton of intel and some rescued hostages.

 Selym wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
thanks political correct police, but can we quit nitpicking random people's casual and loose use of words that may be offensive to some when there are bigger problems.

I would ask you the same question.

I learned what I said the 'ard way via several arguments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What i never understood was why the marines were never like actual marines, the first ones the ground. Used for special missions, surgical strikes and breaking the front line forthe inevitable hammer blow of the army/ in this case guard.

Or playing the role of the SAS, and making high-profile enemy groups wet themselves with terror by suddenly dropping out of the sky one day, destroying everything, and the buggering off ASAP with a ton of intel and some rescued hostages.

Space Marines do that gak all the time don't they?

Space Marines rescue hostages?

Of course they do.

In fact, most Space Marine romantic comedies start with them rescuing a hostage. Usually a Jennifer Aniston type.

...Now I want Marine yaoi.

Void__Dragonnnnnnnn, get to it!

The same reason entire armed forces aren't made up of special forces soldiers.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Of course they do.

In fact, most Space Marine romantic comedies start with them rescuing a hostage. Usually a Jennifer Aniston type.

this needs to be written.

 Melissia wrote:
Space Marines rescue hostages?

During the Fall of Damnos they did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Now I want Marine yaoi.

Void__Dragonnnnnnnn, get to it!

Well okay, but I don't know why you wouldn't read something by Graham McNeill.

Pretty sure I wrote some Marine yaoi for a character Blaxican made on this site though. Could get that.

 mattyrm wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
thanks political correct police, but can we quit nitpicking random people's casual and loose use of words that may be offensive to some when there are bigger problems.

I would ask you the same question.

I learned what I said the 'ard way via several arguments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What i never understood was why the marines were never like actual marines, the first ones the ground. Used for special missions, surgical strikes and breaking the front line forthe inevitable hammer blow of the army/ in this case guard.

Or playing the role of the SAS, and making high-profile enemy groups wet themselves with terror by suddenly dropping out of the sky one day, destroying everything, and the buggering off ASAP with a ton of intel and some rescued hostages.

Space Marines do that gak all the time don't they?

Well, if you call an entire planet a single target for a small force of marines, then yea.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
During the Fall of Damnos they did.

They also managed to use Deathmark voodoo juju to time travel because reasons, so...

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
During the Fall of Damnos they did.

They also managed to use Deathmark voodoo juju to time travel because reasons, so...

wut

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Of course they do.

In fact, most Space Marine romantic comedies start with them rescuing a hostage. Usually a Jennifer Aniston type.

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
During the Fall of Damnos they did.

They also managed to use Deathmark voodoo juju to time travel because reasons, so...

We've gotten a bit far afield from the topic here (why Imperial guard exist). I think this thread has served its purpose, so unless anyone has something vital to add (PM me), I'll lock it up...