Well Gents,
*Ahem*
I must say, I think Bolt Action has possibly placed a nail in the coffin for 40k for me. I must say that I have played about 5-6 games of Bolt Action, and have loved everyone, win or lose. I just find the simplicity of the game so refreshing, pick up and go. Everyone I introduce to it is pretty efficient at the rules by turn 3. I have a small German army and a small US army (400 points), and I recently bought a Soviet Infantry box, basically more than enough to make a 400 point force as well. There isn't much substance to this post, but I figured I would share for anyone else who is on the fence about the game. Definitely give it a go, you should not regret it. I also have an FOW Open Fire box that I will be cracking open and porting over to Bolt Action rules as well, that should be very interesting. I am also wondering of the possibility of doing a hybrid between 40k and BA. I have found the latest editions of 40k becoming too complicated, so a possible simplification and merging of the order roll would be interesting. I love the fluff of 40k to give it all up, if I could combine it with BA that would be perfect.

Actually on a side note, any ideas on where to pick up decent, but cheap, 15mm/FOW sized terrain? Majority of my terrain is 28mm. Looking to make a 4x4 Urban/Stalingrad table for the FOW.

I will echo the above sentiment. Bolt Action is a great game and is a nice transition from 40k to the rest of the wargaming market.

I second Custom Line. Although I moved to the battlegroup ruleset a few months back Bot Action is a great transition. It works well in 15mm and your wallet will thank you in spades. I still have a running thread on 15mm Bolt Action on here.

Welcome to the amazing world of tabletop gaming outside of 40k.

Edit: individually base the open fire figures on pennies and you will be all set and then some.

Even at 28mm it's a much more fun and cheaper alternative to 40k.

It's nice and relatively simple (it lacks the pages of special rules that 40k loves).

We also found the same in my FLGS. My gaming buddy was a big Warhammer Fantasy player and he wanted to try 40k once. I brought 1500pts each of Dark Eldar and Deathwing along with the Assault on Normandy models.

We played a game of each and from then on he's switched totally to Bolt Action. The evening after our game he went home and ordered the rulebook and a small Soviet army. We have a complete blast playing it and it's pretty much taken over our wargaming time. Another player is also getting into the game a lot now and we're having a great time. With any luck it'll expand even further.

I really enjoy the simple and fun style of the game a lot.

I'm very interested to read into and perhaps get into the Battlegroup ruleset as well. I've heard many good things about it and I want to know more. I think that moving to 15mm will really help as the game starts to expand. With 28mm Bolt Action we've already put two tables together (8' x 6') to give ourselves room to move and play with bigger games without it feeling like a 40k parking lot apocalypse game. It would be a lot of fun to recreate some larger engagements with smaller models.

Same here great game . I love 40k in a fluffy casual non competive way . But the other games out there are great . Bolt action is one of them . Fun to play easy to learn . Great change of pace for people getting the main stream game burn out . Also what's great is warlord is a great source for getting the miniatures . The army boxes are great get started deals that come with army list printed on the box ready for play . Thewarstore.com is good way to get the miniatures etc if your flgs can't get them . I ran some demos the other day at my flgs . Every one had a great time and showed interest in getting into it . Bottom line is I agree with you

Fun stuff

It has been a blast, I have been tempted to demo a game of it at the local hobby store that seems to have a big 40k following. Hopefully I can try it out. The store sells almost no Warlord product, so fingers crossed!

I also must say that the warlord products are great. I bought one soviet box and have more than enough models to make a 400 point demo army! I do wish they were a little easier to assemble, I somewhat miss the clunkiness of the 40k models.

I'll second this statement. Bolt Action is great fun, and very simple.

If you've ever played Epic: Armageddon before it was canned, it will come very naturally - it is literally 28mm Epic Armageddon - order dice, pin markers (blast markers), command checks, et al.

The fact that your 'roll to kill' (it's not 'toughness' per se) is dependent on your troops quality, as are your chances of them passing command checks, you can really feel the difference in quality of troops with theoretically the same weapons.

An army consisting of nothing but Soviet Conscript infantry (only half of whom get real guns*) versus an elite German panzergrenadier force can look like odds of 3 or 4 to one yet it's actually very balanced.


One warning: play the game at 1500-2000 points as per 40k. Some armies get army-wide bonuses (Germans get better light machineguns, Americans get semi-automatic rifles) that scale in value with the size of the game, other armies get free units (The british get a free artillery observer, the russians a free conscript infantry squad).

In small games the latter outweigh the former, in big games the reverse. At 1500-2000 points they're about equal.

* "The man with the rifle will fire. When the man with the rifle is killed, the man without the rifle will pick up the rifle and fire..." - enemy at the gates

 MadMaverick76 wrote:
It has been a blast, I have been tempted to demo a game of it at the local hobby store that seems to have a big 40k following. Hopefully I can try it out. The store sells almost no Warlord product, so fingers crossed!

I also must say that the warlord products are great. I bought one soviet box and have more than enough models to make a 400 point demo army! I do wish they were a little easier to assemble, I somewhat miss the clunkiness of the 40k models.

Their troop stuff is reasonably good. I've had a lot of problems with significantly bent rifle barrels on my Airborne troops (the sculpt detail is very good, but the end of the garands and carbines will often be so bent that you cannot fix it without the material breaking). Similarly, both my armored car and my panzer from Warlord have had absolutely horrible metal. The metal bits were rock hard and extremely brittle. Also, the tracks did not mate up well to the body of the tank, requiring putty filling.

I've done one carbine barrel repair and 5 garand repairs out of about 26 or so models. I also had to build an all new barrel for my SdKfz as well as putty work on my Panzer IV and a rebuild of all of the shurzen supports.

Game play is good, and sculpt quality is good, but the quality of casting has been mediocre or poor.

New starter coming soon, which is great as the current starter isn't really a great starter IMHO.

http://www.warlordgames.com/preview-new-bolt-action-introductory-game/

D-Day Firefight has everything you need to get started in Bolt Action:
Bolt Action mini-rulebook
1 modular plastic ruined farmhouse
10 plastic multi-pose 28mm German infantry
1 plastic 1:56 scale Sd.Kfz 251/1C Hanomag half-track
20 plastic multi-pose 28mm US Army troops
Scenario booklet
Quick reference sheet
60 Pin Markers
2 Rulers
8 order dice, two sets of 4 in two different colours
10 six sided dice

Looks like an interesting update.

Just looking at the old set, maybe they should keep it around as an 'expansion.' 20 more infantry for both sides, additional dice, terrain, and the full rulebook seems like a good add-on to the updated starter set.

I'm looking at moving away from FoW, and Bolt Action was always one of the rulesets I was thinking of moving into to keep my WWII gaming alive.

locarno24 wrote:I'll second this statement. Bolt Action is great fun, and very simple.

If you've ever played Epic: Armageddon before it was canned, it will come very naturally - it is literally 28mm Epic Armageddon - order dice, pin markers (blast markers), command checks, et al.

The fact that your 'roll to kill' (it's not 'toughness' per se) is dependent on your troops quality, as are your chances of them passing command checks, you can really feel the difference in quality of troops with theoretically the same weapons.

An army consisting of nothing but Soviet Conscript infantry (only half of whom get real guns*) versus an elite German panzergrenadier force can look like odds of 3 or 4 to one yet it's actually very balanced.


One warning: play the game at 1500-2000 points as per 40k. Some armies get army-wide bonuses (Germans get better light machineguns, Americans get semi-automatic rifles) that scale in value with the size of the game, other armies get free units (The british get a free artillery observer, the russians a free conscript infantry squad).

In small games the latter outweigh the former, in big games the reverse. At 1500-2000 points they're about equal.

* "The man with the rifle will fire. When the man with the rifle is killed, the man without the rifle will pick up the rifle and fire..." - enemy at the gates

I have been thinking about bumping it up. I have two other buddies that I am getting into it. I need to sit down and glue up my soviets. Once we get a three way battle or two underway, then I will look to expand the battle. Right now just doing 400 point battles, although I am about to play the Soviets, so I know my buddies won't be happy to see that I bring about 40 guys to their 25, so I definitely get your point in regards to game size.

Maniac_nmt wrote:
Their troop stuff is reasonably good. I've had a lot of problems with significantly bent rifle barrels on my Airborne troops (the sculpt detail is very good, but the end of the garands and carbines will often be so bent that you cannot fix it without the material breaking). Similarly, both my armored car and my panzer from Warlord have had absolutely horrible metal. The metal bits were rock hard and extremely brittle. Also, the tracks did not mate up well to the body of the tank, requiring putty filling.

I've done one carbine barrel repair and 5 garand repairs out of about 26 or so models. I also had to build an all new barrel for my SdKfz as well as putty work on my Panzer IV and a rebuild of all of the shurzen supports.

Game play is good, and sculpt quality is good, but the quality of casting has been mediocre or poor.

I just am having a hard time assembling them as quickly as the 40k models. I have had this soviet box sitting because I am just too scared to undertake the task of building it all, I believe I will start this afternoon and hope to be done by tonight! 37 guys here I come!

BrookM wrote:New starter coming soon, which is great as the current starter isn't really a great starter IMHO.

http://www.warlordgames.com/preview-new-bolt-action-introductory-game/

Spoiler:

D-Day Firefight has everything you need to get started in Bolt Action:
Bolt Action mini-rulebook
1 modular plastic ruined farmhouse
10 plastic multi-pose 28mm German infantry
1 plastic 1:56 scale Sd.Kfz 251/1C Hanomag half-track
20 plastic multi-pose 28mm US Army troops
Scenario booklet
Quick reference sheet
60 Pin Markers
2 Rulers
8 order dice, two sets of 4 in two different colours
10 six sided dice

This looks great! Definitely something I may pick up to give my buddies a decent starter army. Wish they would include a machine gun team or something though to add some variety.

infinite_array wrote:Looks like an interesting update.

Just looking at the old set, maybe they should keep it around as an 'expansion.' 20 more infantry for both sides, additional dice, terrain, and the full rulebook seems like a good add-on to the updated starter set.

I'm looking at moving away from FoW, and Bolt Action was always one of the rulesets I was thinking of moving into to keep my WWII gaming alive.

It has been great, I was looking into FoW, but the rules seemed a bit too complicated, especially compared to Bolt Action.

Not to mention, the current FoW starter has some of the worst plastics I've ever had the displeasure of attempting to assemble.

Bolt Action is amazing, my only caveat, imho, is that it should be played with just a few squads and some support, it works amazingly well with smaller point games focusing on a single platoon with some support.

Another vote for BA and a note that you can use easyarmy.com to build your platoons and print out PDF/other type rosters for easy game play.

privateer4hire wrote:
Another vote for BA and a note that you can use easyarmy.com to build your platoons and print out PDF/other type rosters for easy game play.

Also look up Boltaction.net. They have a lot of reviews on equipment and models, plus a nice downloads section with excel based army lists that are easy to use:

http://www.boltaction.net/p/downloads.html

How many dudes are we looking at for a 1500pt game?

I've got a sour taste in my mouth regarding large scale 28mm, if it gets too unwieldly might roll w/ FoW for the bigger ones

Edit: also seconding the whinge about FoW plastics in the starter box. I picked up two allied sets, and while the infantry are superb those Shermans were atrocious to put together.

Well, Bolt Action games are typically 500/1000 from what I can tell, and not 1000/1500 like 40k.

My 500 point Airborne list has about 14 infantry, a lt, a forward air observer, a howitzer (with 3 men and a gun), a MMG team (two or 3 men), and a Mortar squad (3 men and a mortar).

At 1000 I have approx. 3 nine man teams, a lt, 2 MMG squads, Air Ob, two jeeps, a two man bazooka team, a howitzer, and a couple other fidly bits.

My 1k Germans have 3 10 man squads, a mortar team, 2nd lt, an armored car, a panzer, and a few other bits.

Tanks are points expensive, transports are not spammed in general, and most stuff revolves around infantry.

Depending on the experience level of the infantry, they are cheap but not effective, moderately costed and effective, or expensive and highly effective

I will say this, it was hilarious to see the local 40k players apply their logic to Bolt Action.

"So, if I min-max two platoons I can field two of those super nazi tanks in one game?"

 BrookM wrote:
I will say this, it was hilarious to see the local 40k players apply their logic to Bolt Action.

"So, if I min-max two platoons I can field two of those super nazi tanks in one game?"

I played last night, with a 40k buddy. We played Demolition, basically capture enemy base for one turn, you win. Anyway, after the game he was trying to figure out how to fit the most LMGs into his army at 400 points. He rolled with an army of 4x Heer with an LMG, 3x Rifles, and an NCO. He got stomped in the second game to say the least.

Great game, I still dislike the assembly of the models. They are a bit too finicky, I wish they would make sprues that already are holding the weapons. I know it would cut down on customization, but it would definitely streamline the assembly process. Even if they just did it in their starter sets like GW. The models could be more static, but easier for new players to assemble. To say the least, I have a lot of glue stuck on my hands currently.

From the Russian (I think) plastics onwards the arms come with weapons attached, so no more crappy fiddling like with ze Germans, Brits or Americans.

 BrookM wrote:
From the Russian (I think) plastics onwards the arms come with weapons attached, so no more crappy fiddling like with ze Germans, Brits or Americans.

The Soviet infantry box I just bought was still separate. Did you read this somewhere or have you gotten some models like that? It would be fantastic if it were true though! It took me roughly 2 hours to assemble about 15 Soviets, with losing about a pound of skin in the process!

My bad, it was either the Russian or the Japanese plastics that came with arms attached to weapons. I wouldn't hold my breath for a change in sprues any time soon, plastic molds are hella expensive and Warlord is not made of money.

the Japanese have a lot or weapons attached to arms but also individual weapons to allow specific customization if needs be.
I started collecting Germans after starting with Japan and its an entirely different type of assembly lol. I spent about 2 hours and managed to assemble 7 guys. After that i gave up and just painted 7 guys. Haven't had the motivation to assemble the remaining 20+

Just keep in mind that the Germans and Brits were their first Bolt Action plastics Warlord had done and they certainly look the part. They're thankfully improving with every new kit and from what I've heard Italeri isn't doing a gakky job either with their stuff.

There are also some metal ranges for WW2 in 28mm and several ranges of 15mm metal or plastic, and a wide variety of 20mm/1:72 scale.

AS far as number of models in an army goes, well thats really depends on you army selection (Obvious I know) but what i mean is:

If you take a Russian horde that would be representative of early battles against the germans then yeah you're going to need a lot of models but beware the game, I feel, accurately portrays the quality difference in troops when you have a bunch of inexperienced soviets fighting some veteran germans. I have consistently taken a thrashing from, about 27 german veterans, while my horde of inexperienced soviet infantry (72 grunts at one point) I felt like I was replaying those early scenes from enemy at the gates where I was just sending warm bodies to their death..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Definitely consider Bolt action in 15mm, Even battlefronts models make a cheap army.

Warsmith262 wrote:
AS far as number of models in an army goes, well thats really depends on you army selection (Obvious I know) but what i mean is:

If you take a Russian horde that would be representative of early battles against the germans then yeah you're going to need a lot of models but beware the game, I feel, accurately portrays the quality difference in troops when you have a bunch of inexperienced soviets fighting some veteran germans. I have consistently taken a thrashing from, about 27 german veterans, while my horde of inexperienced soviet infantry (72 grunts at one point) I felt like I was replaying those early scenes from enemy at the gates where I was just sending warm bodies to their death..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Definitely consider Bolt action in 15mm, Even battlefronts models make a cheap army.

I am currently sitting on some unpainted FOW Open Fire! minis, so he temptation is there. Just lack any 15mm terrain at the moment.

Sticking to 28mm myself, there's plenty of other companies out there with minis. I'm seriously tempted to get a box of 8th Army and DAK minis from the Perry twins, those boxes have more than enough models for some nice 500 pt platoons.

MadMaverick. as far as 15mm terrain goes, foam core board is cheap and easy..Im about to start making some for my 15mm. Ill post some pics of my ruined city stuff when I get more into it. Until then I have next to no terrain making experience and managed these basic buildings for my FoF games.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/595198.page

The buildings i made i posted pics of are for 20mm so not much bigger!

I do think that bolt action suffers from some rules issues that they are only now dealing with. It's a good start though.

For example, tank veterancy only now means something with the latest errata. MMGs aren't that useful despite their historical importance.

They're also still figuring out how to curtail lists that emphasize too many order dice.

Small units like leaders really shouldn't be out on their own, they need to have some kind of joining mechanic to prevent the order dice situation from getting out of hand.

Inexperienced mortars, or any indirect only gun, are also an issue.

i fully agree with a leaders joining units mechanic... it really needs one.. also transports and the units they transport should probably also count as a single die

Warsmith262 wrote:MadMaverick. as far as 15mm terrain goes, foam core board is cheap and easy..Im about to start making some for my 15mm. Ill post some pics of my ruined city stuff when I get more into it. Until then I have next to no terrain making experience and managed these basic buildings for my FoF games.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/595198.page

The buildings i made i posted pics of are for 20mm so not much bigger!

Thanks for the link. I will have to try my hand at it. I bought a bunch of 28mm for my table, basically have a Stalingrad table going. 15mm is appealing though.

Vertrucio wrote:I do think that bolt action suffers from some rules issues that they are only now dealing with. It's a good start though.

For example, tank veterancy only now means something with the latest errata. MMGs aren't that useful despite their historical importance.

They're also still figuring out how to curtail lists that emphasize too many order dice.

Small units like leaders really shouldn't be out on their own, they need to have some kind of joining mechanic to prevent the order dice situation from getting out of hand.

Inexperienced mortars, or any indirect only gun, are also an issue.

I do think the miss balancing of the rules is nowhere near the unfairness some 40k rules create. The order dice spam is an issue though, is order dice capped? I would think a simple capping per so many points would help. Also not many power gamers in Bolt Action, possibly why I love it more.

I just bought some polish units to try my hand at this game. I like the idea of playing the opening battles of ww2 on the tabletop.

Warlord suggest capping at 12 order dice per side, and that's what tends to happen in tournaments that use their rules pack. It's quite convenient because that's how many you get in one pack of order dice.

The other option for avoiding min-maxing is to restrict a force to one reinforced platoon. That limits the amount of swanky stuff you can get and forces you to use more infantry squads.

I notice osprey publishes these bolt action books. Never had a chance to thumb through one, do the rules and army books have a lot of historical information and artwork?

yes to the artwork. Same also goes for Force on force and I would imagine Field of glory..

 jedi76 wrote:
I notice osprey publishes these bolt action books. Never had a chance to thumb through one, do the rules and army books have a lot of historical information and artwork?

They have a big part of the rulebook dedicated to some of the history as well as all the little blurbs through out the book.

That's good I like osprey art and there is aIot of it. Most of us know the basic history but I think it's appropriate to put in historical info about small squads and platoons and how they fought in a game like this. But mostly like the pretty pictures

I was just about to put a post up about how good bolt action is and saw this thread. I've been playing and collecting 40k on and off for about 12 years. Like many people I needed a change (I'm going to keep collecting though!). I bought the Normandy starter set direct from warlord themselves and got it a few days ago.

What can I say I'm amazed at the quality of the miniatures, much more detailed than GW and plenty of options for uniqueness. They're also great fun to build. Having read the rulebook it seems like a great game to play and I've got my first game arranged for a couple of weeks so I will report back.

If anyone was in any doubt about switching over, looking for a new game systems to play or just giving it a go, don't hesitate! You won't regret it!

chrismck wrote:
I was just about to put a post up about how good bolt action is and saw this thread. I've been playing and collecting 40k on and off for about 12 years. Like many people I needed a change (I'm going to keep collecting though!). I bought the Normandy starter set direct from warlord themselves and got it a few days ago.

What can I say I'm amazed at the quality of the miniatures, much more detailed than GW and plenty of options for uniqueness. They're also great fun to build. Having read the rulebook it seems like a great game to play and I've got my first game arranged for a couple of weeks so I will report back.

If anyone was in any doubt about switching over, looking for a new game systems to play or just giving it a go, don't hesitate! You won't regret it!

If you are willing to move outside of GW, there are a great many systems that are loads of fun.

Bolt Action, Ronin, Saga, Wings of War/Wings of Glory, and others are all good rule sets that require a much lower outlay of cash while still providing everything you love about modeling and wargaming.

Just got my polish infantry box, a mortar and a 37mm bofors today. They shipped it from the UK on the 11th and it made it to me in the US on the 13th. Amazing shipping time. Models are awesome my only gripe is the bases. No bases with the mortar or anti tank gun.

 jdamaso111 wrote:
Just got my polish infantry box, a mortar and a 37mm bofors today. They shipped it from the UK on the 11th and it made it to me in the US on the 13th. Amazing shipping time. Models are awesome my only gripe is the bases. No bases with the mortar or anti tank gun.

The lack of bases with minis is a pain, but a trip to your local Home Depot can pick up washers, of the right size, for spare change. Plus, with Bolt Action, there is no set base diameter rules. Meaning you can base things however to fit your desired modeling look (I usually put my guns and crew on one base, but others put the gun on a base and each crew man on their own to make casualty removal easy).

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 jdamaso111 wrote:
Just got my polish infantry box, a mortar and a 37mm bofors today. They shipped it from the UK on the 11th and it made it to me in the US on the 13th. Amazing shipping time. Models are awesome my only gripe is the bases. No bases with the mortar or anti tank gun.

The lack of bases with minis is a pain, but a trip to your local Home Depot can pick up washers, of the right size, for spare change. Plus, with Bolt Action, there is no set base diameter rules. Meaning you can base things however to fit your desired modeling look (I usually put my guns and crew on one base, but others put the gun on a base and each crew man on their own to make casualty removal easy).

Yeah I ended up using some 60mm bases I had left over from 40k. The bases that came with the infantry were not terrible but I will end up replacing them eventually.

For multi basing, may I suggest an old (GW, actually) tip - plastic curtain rings. Hang them on your mini's to denote wounds/casualties. Its' specific to individuals and will move along with the base.

I am definitely willing and bolt action seems to have won me over, however... I will always have a soft spot for 40k and the gw minis.

Id say the main issue is with LMGs and the fact they dont reflect reality.

Its not a WW2 game, but a game using WW2 figures.

Grand if ye want a more Hollywood experience, but not if you want to play the period and utilise some degree of historical tactics.

Horses for courses really, certainly seems popular, though for skirmish gaming WW2 it aint for me. Too much like 40k and tournament rather than scenario orientated. Plus I get all old grognard when I see people saying they are 'running flamers' in a WW2 game...

Out of interest Big P, what would you deem to be the most realistic WW2 game out there (at this kind of scale?)

I know I've heard of your own Battlegroup being more so than FoW at 15/20mm scale, but what about at 28/30mm?

Do like Bolt Action though, it's tremendous fun and as said very reasonably priced with some great miniatures.

There are a number of detailed sets but some aint that much fun!

Its hard to balance fun and fast gameplay with some degree of realism with believable abstractions.

I can think of two games that do it at this skirmish level.

Chain of Command would be what I would see as the 'realistic' option, in as much as any game can be, but it does let you utilise squad and platoon tactics from WW2 in a manner that feels right for the period.

There is also Normandy Firefight for real squad level action.

Im trying to write my own at present but doubt I will ever get round to it!

I am hooked on this game now. Picked up the old starter set an American M-8 and a german mortar team.

I have switched from 40k to Bolt Action. I have been playing since day one of Bolt Action and I am still finding out new things about the game new and interesting ways to build lists and new ways ti use units that are effective and historical.

I find the game is best played at 1250pts I run tourneys at that level the game has been incredibly successful. We get anywhere from 8-12 players on our game night it's on a Friday.

MuGu games in Everett wa if you live close by come in check it out!

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are also some metal ranges for WW2 in 28mm and several ranges of 15mm metal or plastic, and a wide variety of 20mm/1:72 scale.

I'm thinking 1/72 is the way to go. 15mm just seems too tiny, 28mm lacks models. Plastic Soldier Company makes a bunch of good value 1/72 models and 1/72 is a more standard size so you can get vehicles and infantry from a lot of companies (Revell, Airfix, Italeri, Hasagawa, etc etc).

I'm sure it varies from place to place, but I can get a 1/72 Panzer IV for $9/model, a 28mm one costs $40/model. Basic German infantry from Warlord is $1.60 per model, 1/72 from PSC is 39 cents per model. So roughly a quarter of the price. The 1/72 is only about 20% smaller (obviously wouldn't play both in the same game, but it's close enough that you don't have to mess with the ranges if you don't want).

Once I finish my current batch of 'nids I think I'll grab a 1/72 German force and 1/72 either Soviet or US force to try and get some friends in to BA.

the problem for me is I want fast paced, with a good theme (WW2 in this case) and fun being the key.

There is the spectrum of:

Simulation<----->Fun

If you want a simulation heavy game, Try Heavy Gear! But I for one prefer my games with a heavy lean on fun. After all Isn't that the main reason we got into this hobby? to paint cool models and play fun games with them! I like the rifle is a rifle and machine gun is a machine gun style of play behind BA. As for scenario driven, well there are theatre selectors, which guide you into that direction and if you want to simulate that combat isn't fair and shouldn't have a 'points value' to it then agree to set forces with your opponent.

I have been loving Bolt Action. Picked up a small US Airborne army which sat on the shelf for a while. Luckily my local club just started picking it up during the mass GW exodus.

Loving the Warlord models so far too. For $100 you can easily get a 1000 point army for most countries. And the turn order style and pinning really makes the game feel dynamic. Obviously not a true accurate historical game (my marines fought the Germans last game), but it's a really fun somewhat balanced game.

I'm prolly going to split the new starter with another guy, which is great, means there's finally going to be a serious BA player around soon.

I did a demo Saturday; US (me) vs my friend (German) 4 units each, my sniper team rolled only 1s to hit, I had a squad whiped out, the game lasted 30 minutes or so, and it was damn fun.

My Friend bought the Japanse starter kit, I'm going toward British (Canadians), but it seems the local league got 2 Brits, 2 Russians, 2 Germans...I don't want to add to the Brit list, but US Army isn't inspiring to me, so I just might go full Burma and and with Chindits/Gurkhas for add laughter

 Twelvecarpileup wrote:
I have been loving Bolt Action. Picked up a small US Airborne army which sat on the shelf for a while. Luckily my local club just started picking it up during the mass GW exodus.

Loving the Warlord models so far too. For $100 you can easily get a 1000 point army for most countries. And the turn order style and pinning really makes the game feel dynamic. Obviously not a true accurate historical game (my marines fought the Germans last game), but it's a really fun somewhat balanced game.

While a fan of history, any wargame isn't going to be truly 'historically accurate' because there is always a chance that the wrong side will win or certain elements are killed off that survived, etc.

Bolt Action is good in that it realizes that it is very difficult to find specific battles/area only groups, and allows you to play across theatre. I am all in favor of keeping it historically accurate, up to a point, but the rules shouldn't be designed to force it which would make it next to impossible to find a game. I certainly don't want to pit my US Airborne against a British 8th Army group, that's not to exciting. However, not everyone will have a Japanese army for your US Marines to fight.

So enough history to satisfy the reason we're playing the game, but not so much that you cross out the what-if factor (because if we didn't want some degree of what if we wouldn't play the game at all, it's just the degree of what-if that is debatable).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I did a demo Saturday; US (me) vs my friend (German) 4 units each, my sniper team rolled only 1s to hit, I had a squad whiped out, the game lasted 30 minutes or so, and it was damn fun.

My Friend bought the Japanse starter kit, I'm going toward British (Canadians), but it seems the local league got 2 Brits, 2 Russians, 2 Germans...I don't want to add to the Brit list, but US Army isn't inspiring to me, so I just might go full Burma and and with Chindits/Gurkhas for add laughter

Polish Airborne? I ended up with US Airborne (as I almost always tend to favor the US when given the option), but was sorely tempted to build up a Polish Airborne group (and still might someday). I liked that hard luck get the crappy job nature of them, yet resourceful enough to grimly pull it off.

I'm happy enough that someone else is picking up Germans, meaning I can stick to my US platoon and not be that guy for a change.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Twelvecarpileup wrote:
I have been loving Bolt Action. Picked up a small US Airborne army which sat on the shelf for a while. Luckily my local club just started picking it up during the mass GW exodus.

Loving the Warlord models so far too. For $100 you can easily get a 1000 point army for most countries. And the turn order style and pinning really makes the game feel dynamic. Obviously not a true accurate historical game (my marines fought the Germans last game), but it's a really fun somewhat balanced game.

While a fan of history, any wargame isn't going to be truly 'historically accurate' because there is always a chance that the wrong side will win or certain elements are killed off that survived, etc.

Bolt Action is good in that it realizes that it is very difficult to find specific battles/area only groups, and allows you to play across theatre. I am all in favor of keeping it historically accurate, up to a point, but the rules shouldn't be designed to force it which would make it next to impossible to find a game. I certainly don't want to pit my US Airborne against a British 8th Army group, that's not to exciting. However, not everyone will have a Japanese army for your US Marines to fight.

So enough history to satisfy the reason we're playing the game, but not so much that you cross out the what-if factor (because if we didn't want some degree of what if we wouldn't play the game at all, it's just the degree of what-if that is debatable).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I did a demo Saturday; US (me) vs my friend (German) 4 units each, my sniper team rolled only 1s to hit, I had a squad whiped out, the game lasted 30 minutes or so, and it was damn fun.

My Friend bought the Japanse starter kit, I'm going toward British (Canadians), but it seems the local league got 2 Brits, 2 Russians, 2 Germans...I don't want to add to the Brit list, but US Army isn't inspiring to me, so I just might go full Burma and and with Chindits/Gurkhas for add laughter

Polish Airborne? I ended up with US Airborne (as I almost always tend to favor the US when given the option), but was sorely tempted to build up a Polish Airborne group (and still might someday). I liked that hard luck get the crappy job nature of them, yet resourceful enough to grimly pull it off.

Its a shame the weapons are not portrayed in an historical manner though.

I tend to agree with that slightly, but I think it works for the system. The simplification is what I like the most about BA. I looked into FOW, and the rules were just too much. BA just requires a play-through or two and you know, actually KNOW, almost 75% of the rules off the top of your head. It is one of the greatest things that can happen to a wargamer!

It doesn't have to be more complicated to have modelled effects that bear resemblance to the weapons historical performance.

Could have been modelled using the existing mechanics.

I dont buy the 'its like a movie version' excuse. That just seems like an excuse for not trying to model the historical side.

Any WW2 game that makes LMGs, the fundamental element of WW2 infantry firepower little better than two rifles is not a WW2 game that suits my tastes. Its too 'gamey' and that leads to ahistorical lists. And thats without the other issues I have seen discussed on the games forum.

It maybe fun, but it bears no relation to WW2 aside from the figures for me.

But as a game designed to bring 40k players into some form of historical gaming, it does the job extremely well.

Im yet to find a good, fun skirmish WW2 game that is reasonably accurate in abstracting a degree of historical accuracy, rewards hisyorical tactical play and doesnt reward cheesey ahistorical list building. Its why I tend to play at the next level up...

http://www.warlordgames.com/guide-to-bolt-action-for-40k-players/

Nice page they did; I suppose most of their new player base are 40k players

Already posted by BrookM. Sorry.

Two posts above yours, I posted it earlier today, unless you got me on ignore.

Missed it, BrookM. Didn't parse it because it didn't have any intro text---even thought he link's title explains exactly what it is.

Don't have you or anyone, for that matter, on ignore.

That link is great. Definitely something I am going to print and share with everyone at my demo game.

 BrookM wrote:
Sticking to 28mm myself, there's plenty of other companies out there with minis. I'm seriously tempted to get a box of 8th Army and DAK minis from the Perry twins, those boxes have more than enough models for some nice 500 pt platoons.

+1 on the Perry Miniatures stuff. Had some of theirs before and the sculpting is brilliant.

Really hoping the Perry's go on to do more WWII plastics sooner or later.

So for those who have been playing BA for awhile - how many of the various plastics boxed sets would you need for a reasonable sized force? I'm getting a few to make some forces to play with my mates at home here. I've got a few already, so just looking to "top up" and sort out some forces.

I'm looking making 10 forces using the following kits as the bases - not huge armies, but also medium(?)-sized forces based around at least 2(?) of each box. Similar to what I've been doing with KoW armies and plan to with SAGA warbands, 40k forces (if I ever go back to 40k), etc. A "typical" size for BA kinda thing... Would 3 boxes be better?

US Marines
Japanese
Soviets
British Infantry
British Commandoes
US Infantry
Early Germans (Blitzkrieg)
Mid-Late Germans
Perry DAK
Perry Desert Rats

Also, what about vehicles included in the above? Hanomags? M3 Halftracks? T-34s?

I know I could work out army lists, but I'm not familiar with the rules yet (I have a few books) and am really just looking into picking up some boxes and then going from there based on the figures in hand instead of list building and then buying specifically...

One of my local gaming clubs has got into bolt action in a big way this year, and I don't get what the fuss is about.

It's just 2nd edition 40K with a new initiative system bolted on. There's no hiding it.
And I don't see how a 20 year old set of clunky rules is such a great thing.

Then add in the fact that warlord's models for the game are generally really oddly proportioned and I just don't see why people rant and rave about it.

There's much better systems out there for world war two skirmish, and much better miniature lines as well.

Am I missing something, have I just become a grumpy old git?

 Tamereth wrote:
One of my local gaming clubs has got into bolt action in a big way this year, and I don't get what the fuss is about.

It's just 2nd edition 40K with a new initiative system bolted on. There's no hiding it.
And I don't see how a 20 year old set of clunky rules is such a great thing.

Then add in the fact that warlord's models for the game are generally really oddly proportioned and I just don't see why people rant and rave about it.

There's much better systems out there for world war two skirmish, and much better miniature lines as well.

Am I missing something, have I just become a grumpy old git?

I think you're just a grumpy old git. 2nd edition 40k was mostly fine except for the overly complicated CC that BA hasn't carried across anyway and 2nd ed 40k was overly complicated where BA is actually quite simple and the change from IGOUGO to the order dice system is a pretty fething huge fundamental difference in how the game was played.

I agree the models are "meh", but there's a lot of alternative models, you don't have to buy the Warlord Games ones.

Yes, but lots of games use different turn sequencing.

Pulling dice for a random turn sequence isnt new. Arc of Fire did the same thing 10 years ago with a card deck, only difference is with BA people buy coloured dice to use...

Tamerath, thank goodness for another 'grumpy git'.

Its a simple system, that works well for tournament games but has little historical flavour. Im hoping it will work well for the sci-fi varient though.

I guess the similar style of rulebook, army book and figure range all from one source makes it an easy system to get into for ex-GW players.

Im certainly grumpy as I come out in hives when I see people asking what 'faction' they are 'running' for BA, then call history 'fluff', build lists that are historically as likely as armed Nazi Gorillas (though I would buy them) and call flamethrowers 'flamers'. Its just not my cup of tea.

I wonder if its a generational thing to a degree, but I doubt it. WW2 is a much more personal thing to me. Its a lot more than a movie, a video game or a poor documentary on the history channel. But then I have always been a history nerd, even lectured on Military History and Normandy.

But im glad to see a historical system do well, hopefully some who play it will delve deeper into the history and learn to appreciate that this event was real and respect those who did it for real. A wider awareness of history can only be a good thing and if they learn while playing a fun game, then old gronards can't be too aghast at it.

I thought Warlords recent guide for 40k players put that over well.

And anyway, however you play toy soldiers is up to you, just have fun doing it.

 Azazelx wrote:
So for those who have been playing BA for awhile - how many of the various plastics boxed sets would you need for a reasonable sized force? I'm getting a few to make some forces to play with my mates at home here. I've got a few already, so just looking to "top up" and sort out some forces.

I'm looking making 10 forces using the following kits as the bases - not huge armies, but also medium(?)-sized forces based around at least 2(?) of each box. Similar to what I've been doing with KoW armies and plan to with SAGA warbands, 40k forces (if I ever go back to 40k), etc. A "typical" size for BA kinda thing... Would 3 boxes be better?

US Marines
Japanese
Soviets
British Infantry
British Commandoes
US Infantry
Early Germans (Blitzkrieg)
Mid-Late Germans
Perry DAK
Perry Desert Rats

Also, what about vehicles included in the above? Hanomags? M3 Halftracks? T-34s?

I know I could work out army lists, but I'm not familiar with the rules yet (I have a few books) and am really just looking into picking up some boxes and then going from there based on the figures in hand instead of list building and then buying specifically...

It depends on what experience level you field your men at.

A Perry DAK box plus a SdKFz Puma and a Panzer IV can make you 1000pts. 3 10 man vet squads with a LMG, SMG, MP44 in each, Mortar Squad, another specialist squad, and the two vehicles.

Vehicles depend on what you want. A Transport is helpful to move men around, but the heaviest tanks may struggle to make back their points. The flip side some of the heaviest tanks may be very hard to take down for some armies.

Some general concepts:

Russians spam men, so their armies will have a larger body count
Germans have better LMGs and a more resilient command structure
Brits get artillery cheaper and I forget what else
Americans are more mobile (no move and fire penalties on a lot of their stuff, reflecting gyro stabalizers in their tanks that other countries did not have and the fact their default rifle is a semi auto, better geared for non static fighting)
Japanese are a bit more fearless and like to get into assault

 Azazelx wrote:
So for those who have been playing BA for awhile - how many of the various plastics boxed sets would you need for a reasonable sized force? I'm getting a few to make some forces to play with my mates at home here. I've got a few already, so just looking to "top up" and sort out some forces.

I'm looking making 10 forces using the following kits as the bases - not huge armies, but also medium(?)-sized forces based around at least 2(?) of each box. Similar to what I've been doing with KoW armies and plan to with SAGA warbands, 40k forces (if I ever go back to 40k), etc. A "typical" size for BA kinda thing... Would 3 boxes be better?

US Marines
Japanese
Soviets
British Infantry
British Commandoes
US Infantry
Early Germans (Blitzkrieg)
Mid-Late Germans
Perry DAK
Perry Desert Rats

Also, what about vehicles included in the above? Hanomags? M3 Halftracks? T-34s?

I know I could work out army lists, but I'm not familiar with the rules yet (I have a few books) and am really just looking into picking up some boxes and then going from there based on the figures in hand instead of list building and then buying specifically...

Depending on the army and the amount of points you want to play with, in the case of smaller games a box of plastic infantry and two or three blisters of support stuff (MG teams, mortars and whatnot) should easily suffice. Bigger games, add in another box of infantry, maybe one or two transports and a tank, why not eh?

Also, the Perry boxed sets are excellent 500 pt platoons with support on their own. Just don't give them assault rifles, they didn't have those around that time of the war yet.

Big P wrote:

Tamerath, thank goodness for another 'grumpy git'.
....
Im certainly grumpy as I come out in hives when I see people asking what 'faction' they are 'running' for BA, then call history 'fluff', build lists that are historically as likely as armed Nazi Gorillas (though I would buy them) and call flamethrowers 'flamers'. Its just not my cup of tea.
I wonder if its a generational thing to a degree, but I doubt it. WW2 is a much more personal thing to me. Its a lot more than a movie, a video game or a poor documentary on the history channel. But then I have always been a history nerd, even lectured on Military History and Normandy.
But im glad to see a historical system do well, hopefully some who play it will delve deeper into the history and learn to appreciate that this event was real and respect those who did it for real. A wider awareness of history can only be a good thing and if they learn while playing a fun game, then old gronards can't be too aghast at it.

I thought Warlords recent guide for 40k players put that over well.

And anyway, however you play toy soldiers is up to you, just have fun doing it.

Here's another grumpy git for you. Unfortunately, the tone of your post makes me grumpy with you. There's a bit too much elitism in that section of your post, wrapped up with too much love of "correct" terminology. The various powers in WW2 were indeed factions. And the use of "fluff" is just a term that many people with a 40k background use. You know who else hates that term (when used for 40k?) Jervis. Oh well, bad luck - both of you probably need to get over that one, along with "flamers". gak like that doesn't matter a bit. Or you can be angry at what is essentially nothing for the sake of being angry or bothered. Not respectful enough? /shrug. We're here talking about toy soldiers while there's real, fething nasty wars happening all over the globe instead of trying to do something about it or help the refugees, etc. There are far more important things to get angry about in the world.

A bit about my own background - while I'm sure you know quite a lot more than I do about WW2 and a number of other periods, I've also taught history and my own home has quite a few artifacts of WW2 as my grandfather fought in North Africa, including Tobruk (he lost an eye to a misfire) - so I have his dress uniform, slouch hat, other bits and pieces, as well as quite a few items from the "other faction".

But you know what? WW2 isn't a personal thing to people even 10 years our junior (assuming you're a little older than I am). They have no direct link. It's the same as the first World War to them. They know that the Germans and Japanese were the baddies, and for most of us "our country" was on the side of the good guys. And unless they're actually interested in digging into the fluff, that's all it ever will be.

You should be celebrating the new generation of BA players that are coming across from 40k, and BA for making it accessible and fun - rather than off-puttingly complex or intimidating to new players. Because some of them will become hooked by the history and delve deeper. To some of them an interest in the fluff will become an interest in actual history. If you're more interested in more complex or historically accurate rulesets, that's fine. Prefer Crossfire to Flames of War? No problem. What some of these new players will also find is that there's more than 1 (or 2 with BF) manufactures of WW2 toy cars and toy soldiers, and some will find out that you can use the same toys with more than one ruleset, as well.

Yes... think you basically said the same thing as me then. It will encourage people.

Are we not allowed personal foilbles and petty pointless dislikes anymore due to current affairs?

Bugger, will make the internet boring.

But if you want to rant over my silly and ultimately pointless issues... said tongue in cheek, go for it. I dont mind a bit old fruit.

I will wait for my Nazi gorillas.


As for Tobruk, fairplay... hard fight to be had there, proper soldiering. Mine was at Dunkirk and the other one in Normandy.

 BrookM wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Depending on the army and the amount of points you want to play with, in the case of smaller games a box of plastic infantry and two or three blisters of support stuff (MG teams, mortars and whatnot) should easily suffice. Bigger games, add in another box of infantry, maybe one or two transports and a tank, why not eh?

Also, the Perry boxed sets are excellent 500 pt platoons with support on their own. Just don't give them assault rifles, they didn't have those around that time of the war yet.

The DaK models make some great Gebirgsjager with some minor conversions. Not 100% accurate, but close enough for table top (not to mention a much cheaper way of building out Gebirgsjagers than the metal options).

Big P wrote:
Yes... think you basically said the same thing as me then. It will encourage people.
Are we not allowed personal foilbles and petty pointless dislikes anymore due to current affairs?
Bugger, will make the internet boring.
But if you want to rant over my silly and ultimately pointless issues... said tongue in cheek, go for it. I dont mind a bit old fruit.
I will wait for my Nazi gorillas.
As for Tobruk, fairplay... hard fight to be had there, proper soldiering. Mine was at Dunkirk and the other one in Normandy.

Well, it was his experience. I didn't even exist yet, so no credit to me for what he went through. I have to say that I didn't realise you were being tongue in cheek, and so my response to you was taking your post at face value. I thought you were being a dick rather than having a laugh, so I apologise for that.

As for Nazi gorillas, DUST can help you out there. I've got some half painted on my desk right now, in fact. OK, they've been in that state taking up space for 6 months or more now, but that's how my paint desk rolls...

 Azazelx wrote:
So for those who have been playing BA for awhile - how many of the various plastics boxed sets would you need for a reasonable sized force? I'm getting a few to make some forces to play with my mates at home here. I've got a few already, so just looking to "top up" and sort out some forces.

I'm looking making 10 forces using the following kits as the bases - not huge armies, but also medium(?)-sized forces based around at least 2(?) of each box. Similar to what I've been doing with KoW armies and plan to with SAGA warbands, 40k forces (if I ever go back to 40k), etc. A "typical" size for BA kinda thing... Would 3 boxes be better?

US Marines
Japanese
Soviets
British Infantry
British Commandoes
US Infantry
Early Germans (Blitzkrieg)
Mid-Late Germans
Perry DAK
Perry Desert Rats

Also, what about vehicles included in the above? Hanomags? M3 Halftracks? T-34s?

I know I could work out army lists, but I'm not familiar with the rules yet (I have a few books) and am really just looking into picking up some boxes and then going from there based on the figures in hand instead of list building and then buying specifically...

I basically bought an infantry box set for each nation. It gave me enough for 400 points. This is enough for a decent starter game. I bought some cheap 1/48 tanks to spice things up, only $20 for 2.

 MadMaverick76 wrote:
. I bought some cheap 1/48 tanks to spice things up, only $20 for 2.

Where Might I find these 10dollar tanks?

These require a hard priming in black followed by appropriate paint job but they are nothing more than WW2 tanks with crazy/sci-fi factory paintjobs.

Ebay links shown just for example pics and price range.
Hobby Lobby/Michaels carry these/can get them for you for $10-$15.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xrevell+snap+tite+panzer&_nkw=revell+snap+tite+panzer&_sacat=0

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=revell+snap+tite+panzer&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR2.TRC1.A0.H0.Xrevell+snap+tite+sherman&_nkw=revell+snap+tite+sherman&_sacat=0

privateer4hire wrote:
These require a hard priming in black followed by appropriate paint job but they are nothing more than WW2 tanks with crazy/sci-fi factory paintjobs.

Ebay links shown just for example pics and price range.
Hobby Lobby/Michaels carry these/can get them for you for $10-$15.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xrevell+snap+tite+panzer&_nkw=revell+snap+tite+panzer&_sacat=0

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=revell+snap+tite+panzer&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR2.TRC1.A0.H0.Xrevell+snap+tite+sherman&_nkw=revell+snap+tite+sherman&_sacat=0

They are great size wise and easy to assemble and paint. I just wish they had a Russian tank.

Also a Grumpy Git.... but I won't complain about getting people to open their eyes to the bigger world of Wargaming. Warlord has made a good living/business model for making Historicals much more accessible.

I see WW2 miniature gaming as being not that different than making a WW2 movie. There will be different people in the audience satisfied with different elements to different degrees. For some, the general uniform styles and colours and the right sort of look to the vehicles will be all that is required to transport them there. For others, getting details wrong will shatter the illusion rather quickly.

Bolt Action is a fun game, but it's more loosey goosey than many other WW2 games out there. If it's audience (you and the people you play with) are satisfied by it and find it transports you where you want to go, you'll enjoy it. I still trot it out every now, but my current go-to rules set for a platoon-plus is Chain of Command.

If someone were to say to me "I'm thinking of getting into Bolt Action" I'd say "Awesome! Let me know when you want to get a game in."

 frozenwastes wrote:
I see WW2 miniature gaming as being not that different than making a WW2 movie. There will be different people in the audience satisfied with different elements to different degrees. For some, the general uniform styles and colours and the right sort of look to the vehicles will be all that is required to transport them there. For others, getting details wrong will shatter the illusion rather quickly.

Bolt Action is a fun game, but it's more loosey goosey than many other WW2 games out there. If it's audience (you and the people you play with) are satisfied by it and find it transports you where you want to go, you'll enjoy it. I still trot it out every now, but my current go-to rules set for a platoon-plus is Chain of Command.

If someone were to say to me "I'm thinking of getting into Bolt Action" I'd say "Awesome! Let me know when you want to get a game in."

Precisely!

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Depending on the army and the amount of points you want to play with, in the case of smaller games a box of plastic infantry and two or three blisters of support stuff (MG teams, mortars and whatnot) should easily suffice. Bigger games, add in another box of infantry, maybe one or two transports and a tank, why not eh?

Also, the Perry boxed sets are excellent 500 pt platoons with support on their own. Just don't give them assault rifles, they didn't have those around that time of the war yet.

The DaK models make some great Gebirgsjager with some minor conversions. Not 100% accurate, but close enough for table top (not to mention a much cheaper way of building out Gebirgsjagers than the metal options).

Not any more than the standard Heer infantry box would. DAK models lack a lot of the GJR's signature equipment like their boots+puttees, their large backpack and hat. GJR also didn't typically wear Y-straps as their backpack would take care of hoisting their belts. Same with A-frame webbing, actually.

They do make for okay Gebirgsjager during their North Afrika deployment, though.

Not overly impressed with BA, its a good game but not in the same class as Black Powder or Pike & Shotte, very obviously aimed at 40k players.

That said its not bad, it is even more "the game of the film" than Flame of war though.

If you are a flames player you almost certainly will have enough spare models to play this for free in 15mm, and if not you could probably set up a good sized BA army in 15mm for about twenty quid using FoW models and something suitable to base them on (pennies or tiddly winks)

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Depending on the army and the amount of points you want to play with, in the case of smaller games a box of plastic infantry and two or three blisters of support stuff (MG teams, mortars and whatnot) should easily suffice. Bigger games, add in another box of infantry, maybe one or two transports and a tank, why not eh?

Also, the Perry boxed sets are excellent 500 pt platoons with support on their own. Just don't give them assault rifles, they didn't have those around that time of the war yet.

The DaK models make some great Gebirgsjager with some minor conversions. Not 100% accurate, but close enough for table top (not to mention a much cheaper way of building out Gebirgsjagers than the metal options).

Not any more than the standard Heer infantry box would. DAK models lack a lot of the GJR's signature equipment like their boots+puttees, their large backpack and hat. GJR also didn't typically wear Y-straps as their backpack would take care of hoisting their belts. Same with A-frame webbing, actually.

They do make for okay Gebirgsjager during their North Afrika deployment, though.

The hats are similar, and the boots/puttees are easy enough to convert. I didn't say straight out of the box, but with a little effort they can work alright (then again, my idea of little effort may be radically different than some).

Big P wrote:

Im yet to find a good, fun skirmish WW2 game that is reasonably accurate in abstracting a degree of historical accuracy, rewards hisyorical tactical play and doesnt reward cheesey ahistorical list building. Its why I tend to play at the next level up...

Have you ever tried Nuts!?

 Hordini wrote:

Big P wrote:

Im yet to find a good, fun skirmish WW2 game that is reasonably accurate in abstracting a degree of historical accuracy, rewards hisyorical tactical play and doesnt reward cheesey ahistorical list building. Its why I tend to play at the next level up...

Have you ever tried Nuts!?

Yes, not bad but I just didnt get on with the mechanics.

Big P wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

Big P wrote:

Im yet to find a good, fun skirmish WW2 game that is reasonably accurate in abstracting a degree of historical accuracy, rewards hisyorical tactical play and doesnt reward cheesey ahistorical list building. Its why I tend to play at the next level up...

Have you ever tried Nuts!?

Yes, not bad but I just didnt get on with the mechanics.

Yeah, my experience with it is limited (I only played it once or twice) and while it didn't strike me as the most elegant system, it did at least seem like a WWII skirmish game that would give reasonably historical results.

Bolt Action is a fantastic ruleset in that it's easy to learn and feels like a WW2 skirmish game. It may not be historically accurate but I can play a big game to a satisfying conclusion and have had fun in an hour with someone else who knows the rules well.

Just started a Polish army to go with my Fallschirmjager and my DAK armies.

How does 'feel like a WW2 skirmish' and 'may not be historically accurate' go together?

Surely it cant be the former if its not that latter? Im genuinely interested in how it can have the feel of WW2 small unit combat but at the same time be historically inaccurate. The lists seem reasonably accurate, some of the weapons effects are out of kilter with reality a little. Hence why im intrigued by your comment that it is both the feel of WW2 and inaccurate.

Though I dont know what a WW2 skirmish feels like, other than probably gaking my pants during it.

Big P wrote:
How does 'feel like a WW2 skirmish' and 'may not be historically accurate' go together?

Surely it cant be the former if its not that latter? Im genuinely interested in how it can have the feel of WW2 small unit combat but at the same time be historically inaccurate. The lists seem reasonably accurate, some of the weapons effects are out of kilter with reality a little. Hence why im intrigued by your comment that it is both the feel of WW2 and inaccurate.

Though I dont know what a WW2 skirmish feels like, other than probably gaking my pants during it.

To be fair though, any 28mm (or even 15mm for that matter) game which doesn't let rifles shoot the entire length of the table is not going to feel correct. Heck, SMGs are easily going to shoot out to that distance with some accuracy, even shotguns (a shotgun is not a point blank only weapon, nor a pistol for that matter).

If you want to see an example of a very realistic WW2 skirmish game, check out Company Commander by John Leahy. It's free in a yahoo group's files section. It has a lot in common with Crossfire, but is made for individual troops. I ran it once for some local light infantry officers when they came back from Afghanistan and their reaction was that it felt too right.

I played Bolt action a few times and i am lovin it, liking the activation sequence, and getting mini's is easy, got Russian Infantry from Wargames factory and use tanks from Tamiya.

Big P wrote:
How does 'feel like a WW2 skirmish' and 'may not be historically accurate' go together?
Surely it cant be the former if its not that latter? Im genuinely interested in how it can have the feel of WW2 small unit combat but at the same time be historically inaccurate. The lists seem reasonably accurate, some of the weapons effects are out of kilter with reality a little. Hence why im intrigued by your comment that it is both the feel of WW2 and inaccurate.

Because I can play a what-if? scenario where US troops fight Soviet troops in May 1945 in Germany, which would be totally not historically accurate but would feel like a WW2 game.

Big P wrote:

Though I dont know what a WW2 skirmish feels like, other than probably gaking my pants during it.

You got me there. It plays to me how I would imagine the battles went.

One of the problems with some of the more granular simulation games (other than usually taking far too long) is that it's often a simulation of what the author _imagines_ it to have been like.

Earlier someone said "Not overly impressed with BA, its a good game but not in the same class as Black Powder or Pike & Shotte, very obviously aimed at 40k players. "

I know what they're trying to say - that BP and P&S are somehow more "sophisticated", but hell, they are probably even less accurate to their period than Bolt Action is to WW2. Especially Hail Caesar.

However, comparing BA to 40k is very apples and oranges... BA is much quicker and definitely simpler, 40k is a pretty granular simulation of someone's imagination of a fantastical future that is as complex as some of these "accurate" smaller press simulation wargames.

Big P wrote:
How does 'feel like a WW2 skirmish' and 'may not be historically accurate' go together?

See:

 frozenwastes wrote:
I see WW2 miniature gaming as being not that different than making a WW2 movie.

 Manchu wrote:

Big P wrote:
How does 'feel like a WW2 skirmish' and 'may not be historically accurate' go together?

See:

 frozenwastes wrote:
I see WW2 miniature gaming as being not that different than making a WW2 movie.

I do.


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 judgedoug wrote:

Big P wrote:
How does 'feel like a WW2 skirmish' and 'may not be historically accurate' go together?
Surely it cant be the former if its not that latter? Im genuinely interested in how it can have the feel of WW2 small unit combat but at the same time be historically inaccurate. The lists seem reasonably accurate, some of the weapons effects are out of kilter with reality a little. Hence why im intrigued by your comment that it is both the feel of WW2 and inaccurate.

Because I can play a what-if? scenario where US troops fight Soviet troops in May 1945 in Germany, which would be totally not historically accurate but would feel like a WW2 game.

Big P wrote:

Though I dont know what a WW2 skirmish feels like, other than probably gaking my pants during it.

You got me there. It plays to me how I would imagine the battles went.

One of the problems with some of the more granular simulation games (other than usually taking far too long) is that it's often a simulation of what the author _imagines_ it to have been like.

Earlier someone said "Not overly impressed with BA, its a good game but not in the same class as Black Powder or Pike & Shotte, very obviously aimed at 40k players. "

I know what they're trying to say - that BP and P&S are somehow more "sophisticated", but hell, they are probably even less accurate to their period than Bolt Action is to WW2. Especially Hail Caesar.

However, comparing BA to 40k is very apples and oranges... BA is much quicker and definitely simpler, 40k is a pretty granular simulation of someone's imagination of a fantastical future that is as complex as some of these "accurate" smaller press simulation wargames.

I dont think any game with toy soldiers will ever be realistic or accurate.

The best you can hope for is that it feels right to your perception of a given gaming genre and that you enjoy it.

Can you accept its a miniatures game with a ww2 theme?

A theme doesnt mean realistic or accurate. A theme is merely a skin.

I mean, like you I wish to play more accurate games. But can see why not many do. For many reasons. I look at my Japanese and think about how sucky it would be to play them in an accurate game. Understregnthed, little to no reinforcements, lack of guns and ammo, starvation and poor leadership to name a few. There is no positive outcome for such a force outside of a few theaters.

So I do like bolt action for example, because it provides me the rules and options to play a game thats themed where I have a chance at winning and can forget the stuff I read about in the books. Id rather pretend, sometimes, that my men didnt train 3 times a day to shoot themselves with a rifle instead of fighting, or the poor co ordination of attacks etc.

A theme is very different to game play. The 2 dont go hand in hand as many successful games show.

I just don't get the "realism" argument. These are plastic toy soldiers, reality is exempted, fun is the objective. Bolt Action achieves that fun without complications.

 MadMaverick76 wrote:
I just don't get the "realism" argument. These are plastic toy soldiers, reality is exempted, fun is the objective. Bolt Action achieves that fun without complications.

Without many abstractions nothing is realistic on the table.

Bolt Action just has more abstractions than some games I guess.

All depends where you draw the line.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Can you accept its a miniatures game with a ww2 theme?

A theme doesnt mean realistic or accurate. A theme is merely a skin.

I mean, like you I wish to play more accurate games. But can see why not many do. For many reasons. I look at my Japanese and think about how sucky it would be to play them in an accurate game. Understregnthed, little to no reinforcements, lack of guns and ammo, starvation and poor leadership to name a few. There is no positive outcome for such a force outside of a few theaters.

So I do like bolt action for example, because it provides me the rules and options to play a game thats themed where I have a chance at winning and can forget the stuff I read about in the books. Id rather pretend, sometimes, that my men didnt train 3 times a day to shoot themselves with a rifle instead of fighting, or the poor co ordination of attacks etc.

A theme is very different to game play. The 2 dont go hand in hand as many successful games show.

This is all any WW2 miniatures game is. There is no difference between a WW2 game and a WW2 themed game. Different games have different sorts of mechanics and different levels of abstraction, but they're all WW2 games in the end. Pick which flavor you like better. You can take literally any WW2 miniatures game and play an ahistorical match up if you want to. There is absolutely nothing unique about Bolt Action allowing you to do that. You can do it with Bolt Action, you can do it with Flames of War, you can do it with Battlegroup, you can do it with Command Decision, you can do it with Disposable Heroes, you can do it with Mein Panzer, etc., etc.


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 Swastakowey wrote:

 MadMaverick76 wrote:
I just don't get the "realism" argument. These are plastic toy soldiers, reality is exempted, fun is the objective. Bolt Action achieves that fun without complications.

Without many abstractions nothing is realistic on the table.

Bolt Action just has more abstractions than some games I guess.

All depends where you draw the line.

Except that it doesn't. Plenty of other WW2 games have a level of abstraction similar to Bolt Action.

Well no. A ww2 theme is nothing like a ww2 game. A ww2 theme could be ww2 in space. Its space with a ww2 theme. I think that makes it a very different game to a ww2. So no not really. The rest of your comment had little to do with what I said. Big P said something about why anybody would play a ww2 game that isnt accurate. I said because I dont really want to play a game where my ass gets kicked all the time, but I still want the theme. Thats all...

Your second comment just agreed with me. I said I guess Bolt Action has more abstraction than some other games, because Big P thinks ill of it compared to his games due to the level of correctness is has in comparison. Its abstract to the point where everything is generalized making it far less accurate than a ww2 game that has far less generalization (in theory).

 Swastakowey wrote:
Well no. A ww2 theme is nothing like a ww2 game. A ww2 theme could be ww2 in space. Its space with a ww2 theme. I think that makes it a very different game to a ww2. So no not really. The rest of your comment had little to do with what I said. Big P said something about why anybody would play a ww2 game that isnt accurate. I said because I dont really want to play a game where my ass gets kicked all the time, but I still want the theme. Thats all...

Your second comment just agreed with me. I said I guess Bolt Action has more abstraction than some other games, because Big P thinks ill of it compared to his games due to the level of correctness is has in comparison. Its abstract to the point where everything is generalized making it far less accurate than a ww2 game that has far less generalization (in theory).

Well, okay. I guess if you're talking about Weird War 2 or WW2 sci-fi or something, I would agree that could be considered a WW2 themed game, rather than a WW2 game. But if we're just talking about straight historical games, I'd say that they're all WW2 games.


I don't agree that more abstraction necessarily makes a game less accurate though. It can, but it doesn't have to. In a lot of cases, abstraction has a lot to do with what level a game is played at. For a very simple example: A strategic level game will, by definition, have more abstraction than a tactical level game, but it could still provide reasonably historical results for a historical match up.

 Hordini wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Well no. A ww2 theme is nothing like a ww2 game. A ww2 theme could be ww2 in space. Its space with a ww2 theme. I think that makes it a very different game to a ww2. So no not really. The rest of your comment had little to do with what I said. Big P said something about why anybody would play a ww2 game that isnt accurate. I said because I dont really want to play a game where my ass gets kicked all the time, but I still want the theme. Thats all...

Your second comment just agreed with me. I said I guess Bolt Action has more abstraction than some other games, because Big P thinks ill of it compared to his games due to the level of correctness is has in comparison. Its abstract to the point where everything is generalized making it far less accurate than a ww2 game that has far less generalization (in theory).

Well, okay. I guess if you're talking about Weird War 2 or WW2 sci-fi or something, I would agree that could be considered a WW2 themed game, rather than a WW2 game. But if we're just talking about straight historical games, I'd say that they're all WW2 games.


I don't agree that more abstraction necessarily makes a game less accurate though. It can, but it doesn't have to. In a lot of cases, abstraction has a lot to do with what level a game is played at. For a very simple example: A strategic level game will, by definition, have more abstraction than a tactical level game, but it could still provide reasonably historical results for a historical match up.

Well could you agree that some focus more on theme and looks instead of accuracy and representation?

I didnt say it always does effect accuracy, but it can get to the point it does. Like having the medic in bolt action gives units within 6" a 6+ FnP I think. I wouldnt call that very accurate considering the job of a medic. I dont know much about medics in warfare but I doubt they patched people up on the spot for combat again as much as kept them from dying for later on. I would assume (I could be wrong) that a medic would provide moral for a force (knowing they would be taken care of when hurt) instead of magically getting people up to fight again instantly. But the medic has to have a use that isnt covered in bolt action, so its abstracted to the point of a FnP (which, as far as I know and see it, seems a bit far fetched).

So abstraction can push the limits I think.

Not really alot of point in replying as you clearly dont read what I write.

I never said I wanted an accurate game, I stated no game can be realistic as its toy soldiers. Every game is full of abstractions, some manage to give a perceived feel of the period, but that is often a personal perception and will differ from one player to another.

I asked how a game could have a WW2 feel, but still be historicaly inaccurate. To which an answer was given. The comment intrigued me that is all.

Clearly Mr. Swastakowey you want to create an argument where there is none. Its such a shame when fans of a game do this, does more to put me off than encourage me to try a system. Given one of my best chums wrote the German Army book for BA I thought I might.

Good luck to you, I hope you get lots of fun games in, after all thats what the hobby is all about.

For some reason, BA take a lot of flak. (I personally believe it is because it is probably the most visible WW2 minis game.) BA players are sometimes a bit defensive because they are so used to having to defend the game.

 Manchu wrote:
For some reason, BA take a lot of flak. (I personally believe it is because it is probably the most visible WW2 minis game.) BA players are sometimes a bit defensive because they are so used to having to defend the game.

Historical gamers are, by and large, the absolute crankiest gamers possible.

As a gross generalization, they tend to think that anybody that plays anything besides a homebrewed, fully researched rules set is "not sticking to history," while they tend to be aggressively cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think BA is a fun game. It's cheap to build up, and there's enough variety to make the armies flavorful. I think that the rules really encourage players to hug cover, and the dice draw mechanic allows for momentum shifts.

While it gets a little chart heavy at times with airstrikes/vehicles/artillery, the core infantry rules are nice and tight, and the pin marker mechanic is great.

Yay!

Lets trot out baseless stereotypes! Its such fun!


Personally the only cranky gamers I have met were 40k gamers who spent more time arguing about the rules than playing. Though thankfully 99% of gamers I have met over 30 years in the hobby have been fine people regardless of their preferred genre.

Big P wrote:
Yay!

Lets trot out baseless stereotypes! Its such fun!

Whew, I dunno, TMP is the crankiest place on the internet hahaha


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
For some reason, BA take a lot of flak. (I personally believe it is because it is probably the most visible WW2 minis game.) BA players are sometimes a bit defensive because they are so used to having to defend the game.

It's the new Flames of War in that aspect. FoW was reviled for years and years for being "40k with WW2 reskin", and after a very long teething period it's now finally been accepted. Bolt Action is now reviled for being "40k with WW2 reskin" and I'm assuming in a few years it'll finally be accepted, too. (this is despite both rulesets barely sharing anything in common with 40k's core rules) I have a feeling the "breaking in period" is just the length of time it takes a gamer in his 20's to become the new late 30's grognard, while the old grognards just get older but continue to paint Minifigs with glossy enamel paints.

Judgedoug,

TMP... good point, I take it all back!


I think there is always a degree of people in the hobby who dislike any game once its perceived as popular. I know once we got our first 'hater' we knew we had done alright.

Im guessing it's the same with BA on a much bigger scale. Some will just dislike it cos its popular or it competes with their holy ruleset.

Best thing for BA players to do is just keep on playing and enjoying themselves. The hobby is a very personal one, so its best not to suggest your own opinions are anymore valid than anyone elses.

Woaw i don't understand why bolt action would get so much flak, i like the system, it is kind of like the first warzone game activation wise but without the randomness .

And here i thought Dust Tactics was the most historical correct one

It may be because it's an easy and less than daunting gateway into the WWII gaming scene, plus a bit easier to get than some rulesets around here. It is clearly written by guys who have a love for the setting (just look at all the artefacts John Stallard and co wheel out for the decoration of their books) and want it to be as open and easy to pick up as possible. As some like to say, it's 40k but with actual nazis and no lasers. Also, it is cheaper than Flames of War.

Also, whatever happened to calling the cranky historical guys grognards?

 BrookM wrote:
As some like to say, it's 40k but with actual nazis and no lasers.

Y'know I still don't get that comparison. It's 28mm and a miniatures game, but it doesn't play like, feel like, or haves rules similar to, 40k.

 BrookM wrote:
Also, it is cheaper than Flames of War.

That's true. For about a hundred bucks you can get a full reinforced platoon (1000 point army boxes) another 50 for the rulebook and army book, then a pack of order dice - well under $200 for a very usable army with 50+ models and a tank or two and support elements.

 BrookM wrote:
Also, whatever happened to calling the cranky historical guys grognards?

I did in my previous post! "the old grognards just get older but continue to paint Minifigs with glossy enamel paints."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Big P wrote:
Judgedoug,

TMP... good point, I take it all back!

TMP - where the only good game systems and miniatures were released a minimum of 20 years ago. My evidence is that Rogue Trader Nostalgia from 2010 (1990) has now moved to 40k 2nd Edition Nostalgia in 2014 (1994), haha.

As someone who was inspired to start Bolt Action after just one demo game using the Assault on Normandy box, I'll just sidestep the debate and say I agree with the OP .

It's unfortunate that it gets compared to 40K so much because apart from a few basic bits it feels like a very different game. The speed of turns, the huge emphasis on cover and the lethality of firefights were particularly surprising for me after playing 40K.

I don't mind the lack of 100% accuracy. I think Warlord are clearly trying to make it accessible rather than a hardcore simulation, so I wasn't surprised that some things get streamlined. Indeed, throughout the book there are numerous explanations of why they often went for a simpler interpretation over something that would have been more historically accurate at the price of bloating the rules. Given how easy it is to play the game, I don't mind that. As a comprehensible, pacy game it does its job very well.

Something else I find surprisingly enjoyable is the painting and modelling side. After playing something fantastical I actually find it a refreshing change to research historically accurate uniforms, spend time making sure I buy the right paints, equip my models according to proper platoon structures and avoid outrageous conversions...

I am still waiting to play my first game of BA so take my comments as a casual observer only...

I thought the complaints about BA were less about the fact it's abstracted and more about those abstractions lead to the game being played in a fashion that wasn't realistic.

Dude Don't listen to any of that about BA just play it! It's a fun game and yes it's a game not a simulation. If you want a simulation go be a reenactor.

If you are here to play a great game with that has new and innovative mechanics is cheap to get in to and looks great on the table then you will love BA.

If you get bent out of shape that a rifle can't fire all the way across a table you should find a meet up group of WW2 war re enactors and by some uniforms.

In my first game we did indeed let rifles fire the length of the table...!

I hadn't read the rules at all (though I knew how activation and rolling to hit worked) and my opponent had only skimmed them and watched an intro game (some weeks before) on Youtube.

We thought that "long range" meant any range beyond that given for the weapon and that you got a pin marker for every wound inflicted. It made for a very fast-moving, very lethal game...

Big P wrote:
Yay!

Lets trot out baseless stereotypes! Its such fun!


Personally the only cranky gamers I have met were 40k gamers who spent more time arguing about the rules than playing. Though thankfully 99% of gamers I have met over 30 years in the hobby have been fine people regardless of their preferred genre.

You can call it a broad generalization, but it's not baseless.

I've worked a couple of conventions for Armorcast, the resin terrain company. GW players would look at the stuff, and maybe buy a piece. Historical guys would look around, ask for highly specific things like 15mm Feudal Japan, complain about the prices, mutter about how they could scratch build the stuff, and leave without buying anything. It left a bad taste in my mouth, for sure.

I've also witnessed two older guys viciously arguing the relative merits of their homebrewed American Civil War rules sets. One guy felt that since his games weather charts were based on location, while the other guy only had a single weather chart, his was the only one not hopelessly simplified.

 Polonius wrote:

Big P wrote:
Yay!

Lets trot out baseless stereotypes! Its such fun!


Personally the only cranky gamers I have met were 40k gamers who spent more time arguing about the rules than playing. Though thankfully 99% of gamers I have met over 30 years in the hobby have been fine people regardless of their preferred genre.

You can call it a broad generalization, but it's not baseless.

There is a sterotype - the button counter! Gotta make sure the correct number of buttons are on a miniature soldier's uniform in the correct position etc etc

Amusingly I am also a historical wargamer (I love Ga Pa - best historical ruleset ever made - and the WSS is one of my favorite periods) but I'm very much a "close enough" kinda guy

They stereotype in question a result of the pre-internet days where the only way people really found out about historical games was by contacting other people who were interested-- and who would be most likely to be enthusiastic about history to the point of wargaming it? The pedantic know it all.

I've found that over the last 15 years, they've lost their stranglehold on the historical miniature gaming hobby. They're no longer the driving force of local gaming because people can find other interested parties so easily thanks to things like social media. For example, the vast majority of my opponents were found on a local facebook group for board games. I asked if it was okay to talk about miniature wargaming there and also brought some demo games to the monthly gaming day.

When someone is interested in board games in general, they're intersted in a potentially infinite number of themes (settling the island of Catan, taking train rides across the continent, control trade in a port, 16th century agriculture, etc,). So you tend not to get the self styled experts, obsessive about one era. Instead you get people focused on fun.

Flames of War also came onto the scene at a perfect point as far as demographics goes. With the LOTR license GW decided to double down on the teenage target market. This was at a time when the children of the babyboomers were reaching adulthood. So you had all these 20ish year olds feeling less and less satisfied with GW's product offerings and then Battlefront swoops in with a WW2 game targeted at those individuals. Since then miniature makers of all kinds have not been shy about going after existing players of GW-style games. Bolt Action offers a very familiar place to land for someone bailing out of 40k.

There certainly are still hold outs. I'm sure if you go to some of the larger historical conventions you'll come across the pedantic know-it-alls of yesteryear. They didn't quit just because a bunch of new blood has entered into the fray over the last decade or so. When it all comes down to it, all their talk about getting it right means "getting it right in a way that is important to me!" and if the fun of others is sacrificed in the process, they tend to select themselves out of positive community development.

---

"Achtung Schweinehund" is a fun book that delves into some aspects of the stereotype, especially with the miniature game shopkeepers of the pre-internet days, where in one case the writer stood in front of the man for a good twenty minutes waiting to buy some minis, only to be constantly ignored as the shopkeep kept rummaging through drawers and trying to look as busy as possible.

Just coming in here to put in my two cents...small response cause I'm on my phone.

Been playing bolt action for a few days and I love it. Simple , elegant and plays like you would expect a 28mm shooter to play. It's really a game that I had expected 40k to play like, but seeing as 40k is spam and move as fast as you can that's out of the c cards for me. This is much slower, thoughtful, a much larger focus on cover.

Plus, the pinning system is great. I'll take this over 40k any day.

Had a large game of this last Saturday afternoon into the evening, four players per side.

This ruleset actually does Apoc style games, i.e. big one, well - it can struggle with single large forces but four 750pts forces per side worked pretty well.

There are issues with the rules, but I think V2 will be better and by the time it gets to V3 a lot better.

Just wish Warlord would make their mind up if this is a squad level skirmish game or a platoon level skirmish game, at the moment its an odd mix. The infantry rules are good, while you cannot split fire you can take multiple smaller units to get a similar effect in smaller games - doesn't scale up very well though but a nice compromise at a small scale. The pin system is very nice, but would prefer something akin to the other Warlord games on the order system - specifically always rolling to see if the order is passed but with the ability to act on a units own initiative instead of issuing orders. At the moment the initial phases of the game are too predictable and the later stages when units have a few pin markers can seriously slow down.

That said its a fun game, tempted to get some US MArines to face off against my Japanese and then have two armies to try and get a few more people playing this.

The special rules for the various powers are not that bad, and where the rules have a level of complexity they generally make enough sense that its easy to remember.

Can see this expanding slightly to be a very good ruleset over the next few years.

Just wish they had gone with a D12 or D20 based system and not a D6 one though, would have provided a lot more scope for minor changes between units experience level and general skills than the 1-6 system currently used has. Minor point though really.

I agree that the game will only get better with some refinements. The problem my friends and I have is partially with the pin system and the difficulty in removing pins after a certain point. Although realistic, it does add some complication that can tend to just be a real nuiance. Some games, I just focus fire on a squad to just pin it, I was able to pin an entire squad by the second turn while only killing two or three members of the squad, effectively removing them for the rest of the game.

I also hope we see some refinement and update to the vehicles. Their usage during WW2 was wide spread, but their application in Bolt Action seems very minimal given their hefty point sink. I purchased a Sherman and a Panzer, and not much else.

I highly recommend that you guys look into the Gates of Antares. I recently signed up to be a tester, the rules are simple and very comparable to Bolt Action in regards to the pinning and turn sequence. Basically though I have found a new purpose for my 40k models as the recent additions of 40k have just become too complicated for recreational play!

Even alessio has voiced concerns about how pinning is working and how useless the rally order is right now. Not so much in those words, but he already said specifically that for a future version, he would make rally tests on base morale.

This is compounded by the game being an old style 6 turn game, so wasting an entire turn trying to rally isn't worth it.

Agree the turn limit is a bit pants, I like how FoW handles that, you have a 'end condition' which ends the game which is not always the same as the win condition, otherwise you just keep going.

Found that pinning is a case of hit a unit for a few pins, then ignore it, in a six turn game its now out of it. Its partly why I fun Japanese, you have to kill them to stop them.. Ok Banzai! has a few limits but you do at least have to actually deal with them.

Good to see Warlord are aware of the issue, dare say its like some of the issues GW has, doesn't come up in play testing, nice to see they are taking notice of things for these games though and making changes to lead to a better game with it.

Its a game I enjoy, don't get all that much chance to play it, and its not one I plan on spending much more cash on.

Don't like the tank war stuff, why on earth you would play a tank v tank conflict in 28mm is beyond me - use the rules by all means but in 15mm or smaller.. There are much better vehicle rules out there, hell even FoW handles vehicles in a way that makes more sense - ok, stunned, dead, nice and simple with a separate mechanic for 'got stuck'. BA is trying to be a bit too detailed with the on fire stuff, adds colour but seems not worth it.

In 28mm either go very detailed with damage results - like shooting tracks off so as to immobilise or limit to turning on the spot with a chance of further breakdowns, wounding individual crew members, damaging optics or weapons etc or just keep it very simple.

I haven't played a Warhammer game in years due to isolation and lack of opponents (and who wants to play in centimetres anyway?) I was recently looking for some painting tips on WWII camo when I came across Bolt Action on Youtube. I was hooked! The rules were easy enough to understand without even playing, the minis from Warlord and other historical mini companies look amazing and, for synchronicity's sake the hat trick, I found a gaming club in 東京 and this is what they play....along with Napoleonics.

I'm hoping to head to Akihabara and pick up some guys to see how they paint up (Soviet Anti-tank dog bombs?!! Yes, please) and then place a big fat order on the internet.

Due to arules misunderstanding I played a game where we took morale tests for all orders except Rally, which we counted as succeeding automatically . I'm not sure how we arrived at that conclusion but at least it meant units weren't bound to be taken out of the game entirely by a few pin markers.

Anyone here played tank war yet? How strong/survivable are tanks in bolt action?

I've been thinking about picking up the starter set, although not sure if I should get the new one or the old one.

 argonak wrote:
Anyone here played tank war yet? How strong/survivable are tanks in bolt action?

I've been thinking about picking up the starter set, although not sure if I should get the new one or the old one.

While I haven't played tank war I can tell you that tanks are sort of a crap shoot. Either they'll die turn one or rampage across the battlefield. Depends on the dice.

I'd get the new one. It's similar to the old one except that you trade 10 krauts for a hanomag. You also get a lot more tokens.

Not to mention a scenario booklet, waaaaay better than the leaflet in the first starter that just told you to read the rules and play a game.

I am a TO at MuGu games in Everett WA we will be running a tourney on the 18th of OCT.

The Format we are using for the event integrates the tank book in a interesting way. You must take one and ONLY one armored Platoon and must take at least one Reinforced platoon the point level is 1500. In our test games this format has been a blast by forcing people to field at least 3 tanks it keeps the order dice down and the fun factor high.

Moving forward I think Tank platoons and Reinforced platoons together may be the way forward for this game. I love Bolt Action it's super fun. Give it a go you will love it.

 Fezman wrote:
Due to a rules misunderstanding I played a game where we took morale tests for all orders except Rally, which we counted as succeeding automatically . I'm not sure how we arrived at that conclusion but at least it meant units weren't bound to be taken out of the game entirely by a few pin markers.

Probably because it doesn't make sense otherwise. I mean, it's an order you would only use when a unit is pinned to all heck, and it's also unreliable in that it's D6+1, which usually is only enough to relieve a little pin pressure, not clear it. Thus the order is unlikely to do much to help, assuming it even works.

I'm pretty much going to play the rally rule as either on base leadership + command bonus, or even free if a leader is in command range (because 6" is a small radius in 28mm).

As for Tank War, the rules just aren't there for it. It's the same rules as regular BA for tanks, which are just basic. To be honest, tanks probably need some non-historical hull points, or a detailed damage system. The way tanks work now they're either trying too hard to stick with the infantry rules, or they're not trying hard enough.

 Vertrucio wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
Due to a rules misunderstanding I played a game where we took morale tests for all orders except Rally, which we counted as succeeding automatically. I'm not sure how we arrived at that conclusion but at least it meant units weren't bound to be taken out of the game entirely by a few pin markers.

Probably because it doesn't make sense otherwise. I mean, it's an order you would only use when a unit is pinned to all heck, and it's also unreliable in that it's D6+1, which usually is only enough to relieve a little pin pressure, not clear it. Thus the order is unlikely to do much to help, assuming it even works.

Indeed. I was thinking that it would only be used in when the men were unwilling to come out of cover, so it made sense that they would spend a full round psyching themselves up.

 Vertrucio wrote:
I mean, it's an order you would only use when a unit is pinned to all heck

That might be your problem right there. I think Rally is supposed to be used proactively, although it can be a tough choice. This is one where experience pays off.

I also believe it's intentional. Suppression and pinning followed by assault (which is why my group has been playing with the recent rule proposal of having pinning affect your close combat roll)

Don't forget a unit auto breaks when it has as many pin markers as it's Morale.

If any unit was close to reaching its morale in pins, then it's already being ignored by experienced players.

Also, with the way HE works, and how they seem to want to escalate the game with more tanks. Units being pinned to ineffectiveness in a turn is common.

 Vertrucio wrote:
If any unit was close to reaching its morale in pins, then it's already being ignored by experienced players.

Also, with the way HE works, and how they seem to want to escalate the game with more tanks. Units being pinned to ineffectiveness in a turn is common.

A game I played last Saturday, 1939 Germany vs my new Polish force. Had a 14-man squad sitting on an objective. Took fire for 5 turns; I just kept it Down after turn 2, the 1 pin removed at the end of the turn by staying on Down kept me 1 pin away from auto losing the unit! It finally bit the dust on turn 6 due to casualties. It was being hit by a light howitzer, medium mortar, and rifle/mg fire from at least one squad for most of the game!

Do wonder if you could use the models experience to 'cap' pin markers, say a Veteran never has more than three, average no more than four and inexperienced no more than five, sort of to try and avoid the 'pinned to the point of being ignored' and mean that at least for more experienced troops you do actually have a chance of needing to actually stop them at some point not just blast and then ignore.

leopard wrote:
Do wonder if you could use the models experience to 'cap' pin markers, say a Veteran never has more than three, average no more than four and inexperienced no more than five, sort of to try and avoid the 'pinned to the point of being ignored' and mean that at least for more experienced troops you do actually have a chance of needing to actually stop them at some point not just blast and then ignore.

Interesting concept, but I like the fact that taking too much fire can remove a unit. I think the pinning system is great and just needs some tweaks, I agree with the commander idea. I have debated making that a house rule within my group...If your commander is within command range, you can use his leadership for orders. I believe that was similar to some old school 40k rules.

In regards to Tank War, I have heard it is a bit dull and I tend to agree. 28mm for massive armor battles doesn't seem to fit, I think Flames of War (not much experience with it) would do a better job at a better scale. I have been tempted to give FoW a try though, the difficulty of the rules has kept me away though.

Regarding pins to remove, I like the way the rules are. As for using the commanders leadership, the way it is now gives you an incentive to buy higher leadership HQs (so you can essentially ignore up to 4 pins).

Had a good game a few weeks ago where the objective was in the middle of the field, and my opponent had a great setup to keep me from crossing open ground to get to it. Luckily for me, after 3 turns my artillery finally came in and I caught all but one of his remaining units with it. Pretty much all his squads ended up with at least 3 pins and it outright killed his LT. Insult to injury, his flame squad failed a leadership AND fubared, wiping out a half strength squad that was covering it.

Anyway, pins force you to weigh risking action with the squad in a limited turn environment. And it being a dice game, you can never ignore a squad just because it's pretty pinned, all it takes is a stellar roll and that 'useless' squad can be back in action.

For those interested in Tank Warfare:



http://store.warlordgames.com/products/armoured-fury-bolt-action-tank-war-starter-set/

Price is £80.00

Available to pre-order from today, a special starter set containing everything you need to play Bolt Action Tank War!

Armoured Fury allows you to dive into action as either an American Sherman tank commander or become a Panzer commander of lethal Panther tanks. Filled with loads of awesome plastic tanks this boxed set is not only a great way to get started with Bolt Action Tank War but is superb value too!

The Armoured Fury boxed set contains:

Bolt Action mini-rulebook
Tank War supplement
Scenario booklet
3 plastic 1:56 scale M4 Sherman medium tanks
2 plastic 1:56 scale Panther Ausf. A medium tanks
10 six-sided dice
5 Bolt Action Orders Dice
Quick reference sheet
60 card Pin Markers and 2 Rulers (need cutting out)

The scenario booklet eases you into the game with four scenarios each escalating in scale until you’re ready to add more to your fledgling armoured formations. So whether you’re a die-hard Bolt Action player or new to the game completely this will get you up to speed quickly.

Bolt Action Tank War allows you to play the award-winning Bolt Action game with armoured formations as opposed to the more usual infantry-heavy forces. So, now your tanks can stalk the Normandy bocage, swarm across the open Russian steppes, duel with the enemy in the desert or ambush your foes in the steamy jungles of the Pacific!
Tank War is already proving to be an extremely popular way to play Bolt Action and Armoured Fury is the ideal way to join the action!

A nice price on that armoured-game starter set, given that the tanks are usually £20.00 each (10% off for 3+) and you get five of them here with the expansion rulebook, a mini-rulebook, more orders dice, etc. I reckon I'll pick this one up from one of the discount stores, since I don't have any Shermans or Panthers at present.

That is a slick looking set. Not entirely sure what I prioritize, the savings from the set, or the exclusive miniature you get if you buy the book separately

I like the look of the upcoming book "Battleground Europe" as well. If (or rather when) they release a North Africa/Mediterranean book I'll be all over that.

 novaspike wrote:
Anyway, pins force you to weigh risking action with the squad in a limited turn environment. And it being a dice game, you can never ignore a squad just because it's pretty pinned, all it takes is a stellar roll and that 'useless' squad can be back in action.

Or when a reserve unit of fresh n' minty 14 Polish regular infantry arrives and is immediately pinned by a German sniper! *!@$& dice!!

Only exclusive you'll miss out on is this guy:

 MadMaverick76 wrote:

In regards to Tank War, I have heard it is a bit dull and I tend to agree. 28mm for massive armor battles doesn't seem to fit, I think Flames of War (not much experience with it) would do a better job at a better scale. I have been tempted to give FoW a try though, the difficulty of the rules has kept me away though.

I do not like Flames of War for armor as it encourages weird tank walls where tanks are side by side touching, so that one tank blocks LOS to other tanks, it's really very weird.
However, my brother and a couple friends love Battlegroup and they have declared they will play the same scenario in Battlegroup as well as Bolt Action to see which mass tank battles sytem they like the best (using their giant collection of 20mm armor)

Any links on how to play the game in a 20mm scale? do any of you do this?

Thanks. The 28mm is a tad too large

See it played in 15mm, with no changes whatsoever, no reason at all not to play in 20mm - just base the models on something of a suitable size, say a small coin or similar and away you go.

Wouldn't even change the range measurements, just run with it as printed but slightly smaller models, and cheaper terrain.

Aesop the God Awful wrote:
That is a slick looking set. Not entirely sure what I prioritize, the savings from the set, or the exclusive miniature you get if you buy the book separately

The exclusive for that set isn't much cop, anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:
See it played in 15mm, with no changes whatsoever, no reason at all not to play in 20mm - just base the models on something of a suitable size, say a small coin or similar and away you go.

Wouldn't even change the range measurements, just run with it as printed but slightly smaller models, and cheaper terrain.

Absolitely nothing stopping you. My first "Bolt Action" sets were a pair of 2 FoW box sets of Red Devils and SS. Of course, due to house moves I never got them painted, but the plan was to use the little FoW men with either CM or stick with inches and see how it went.

 judgedoug wrote:

 MadMaverick76 wrote:

In regards to Tank War, I have heard it is a bit dull and I tend to agree. 28mm for massive armor battles doesn't seem to fit, I think Flames of War (not much experience with it) would do a better job at a better scale. I have been tempted to give FoW a try though, the difficulty of the rules has kept me away though.

I do not like Flames of War for armor as it encourages weird tank walls where tanks are side by side touching, so that one tank blocks LOS to other tanks, it's really very weird.

FOW would only encourage weird tank walls for people who aren't that familiar with the rules, since as far as I remember enemy units don't block LOS in Flames of War. In addition, tanks touching each other would be the juiciest artillery target ever. It also makes it way easier for the enemy to block LOS by dropping smoke right in front of the line. In my experience most people try to keep their tanks at maximum dispersion to ensure that as few tanks as possible get hit by arty.

 Azazelx wrote:

Aesop the God Awful wrote:
That is a slick looking set. Not entirely sure what I prioritize, the savings from the set, or the exclusive miniature you get if you buy the book separately

The exclusive for that set isn't much cop, anyway.

I don't know, I'm a sucker for those.

 Stevefamine wrote:
Any links on how to play the game in a 20mm scale? do any of you do this?

Thanks. The 28mm is a tad too large

This is no problem what so ever. As said, you probably don't even need to cut measurements, but if you'd want to the natural choice would be to cut it by a third. 6 inches become 4 inches etc. Then you could play on a smaller gaming surface as well, without it being too small.

Given most 20mm games have ranges longer than BA, I wouldnt bother changing anything.

Weapon ranges are abstractions anyway.

As Aesop said - it depends on what you're playing on. I was thinking of playing some 15mm BA on a 2x2 surface, for example. Cutting down the ranges to cm would (potentially) allow a bit more movement without being under fire.

I've ordered the books (rules and army lists) and some Soviet Infantry. I'm so stoked to get playing again. Tomorrow it's a trip to the Tamiya store in Tokyo for some 1/48 T-34s.

So stoked.

Naturally you got the bundle?

 judgedoug wrote:

 MadMaverick76 wrote:

In regards to Tank War, I have heard it is a bit dull and I tend to agree. 28mm for massive armor battles doesn't seem to fit, I think Flames of War (not much experience with it) would do a better job at a better scale. I have been tempted to give FoW a try though, the difficulty of the rules has kept me away though.

I do not like Flames of War for armor as it encourages weird tank walls where tanks are side by side touching, so that one tank blocks LOS to other tanks, it's really very weird.
However, my brother and a couple friends love Battlegroup and they have declared they will play the same scenario in Battlegroup as well as Bolt Action to see which mass tank battles sytem they like the best (using their giant collection of 20mm armor)

Let me know how they take it. The only thing that turns me off about FoW is the rules. I got into Bolt Action because I loved the simplification when compared to 40k, I am trying to stick with that same logic with any further games I pick up. I am eagerly awaiting my download of the Gates of Antares beta ruleset to get back to using my beautiful 40k models. They are painted and now just sitting collecting dust due to me being so fed up with the 40k rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have the FoW OpenFire! Starter set in my closet. Just trying to find the time to paint then up for some BA action. Just realizing that I have no 15mm terrain as all my terrain is 28mm. Anyone know of any cardstock websites with cheap 15mm terrain? I am not looking for anything too crazy, I was hoping Dropzone Commander would be 15mm because their terrain gets the job done, collapsible, and cheap!

 Aesop the God Awful wrote:
Naturally you got the bundle?

Spoiler:

That's exactly what I ordered. I was a bit peeved at the Tamiya shop in Tokyo. They advertise to carry the entire line, which they don't. There were no 1/48 T-34s, so I ended up get a KV-1 instead. The shop clerk claimed that since the chassis of the 1/48 T-34 is made of cast metal, it's out of production (even though the KV-1 has the exact same cast chasis) Shades of shopping at a GW shop there, I thought. At least they didn't hound me through my stroll in the store trying to push the 1/35th Livestock set or something. lol

It may very well be that Tamiya is replacing the older 1:48 models with full-plastic versions instead. They more or less stopped going for metal hulls after a certain amount of kits. Imagine my disappointment when their IS-2 didn't come with a metal hull but instead four weights you need to glue down into the hull for that "extra realism" they want with these models..

Try Blitzkrieg mins http://www.blitzkriegminiatures.com/html%20pages/Main%20Pages/56%20scale%20tanks%20menu.html

 BrookM wrote:
It may very well be that Tamiya is replacing the older 1:48 models with full-plastic versions instead. They more or less stopped going for metal hulls after a certain amount of kits. Imagine my disappointment when their IS-2 didn't come with a metal hull but instead four weights you need to glue down into the hull for that "extra realism" they want with these models..

The tracks were a bit of a bother to put together, but seeing as I am going to use it for gaming and it'll probably get dropped on the floor more than once in its lifetime, I'm not too upset. I'm hoping to go take a look at some of the other 1/48 kits that are around at the supermarket and local hobby place. I had a remote control T-72 and a Panther which were Hasegawa...I think. They both ended up becoming cat tormenting instruments by attaching a laser pointer to the barrels.

I got a fair few Tamiya 1:48 tank kits for future Bolt Action use, but I've been liking them so much that I'm keeping them as display models, I loathe to use them on the gaming table where they might get damaged or break.

I did get a pair of Hobby Boss tanks though, the Sherman and KV-2, though the both of those have been offered up to the conversion altar for future games of 7TV.

I hit up the local hobby shop today after work and all they had in 1/48 were a couple of trucks. The KV 1 is all ready for priming now and I'm going through the 1/72 Shturmovik instructions tonight. I haven't built a model plane in over 25 years, so the little tricks and nuances of a good build might escape me.

I have to agree that it's difficult to just relegate Tamiya models to gaming as they are so amazing once they are done. But, living in Nippon they are pretty cheap (I think I got the KV-1 for about $15 US or so and the Shturmovik and Stuka for about $6 each, new). When I look at the price of some of the stuff from the UK and elsewhere I know I'm getting a good deal.

On an aside, has anyone actually done/painted up the Dad's Army figures from Warlord? They look great, but the price at the moment is making me kind of hmmm and hah. I love the show and have it on regularly on Youtube when I'm doin' Dubya Dubya 2 stuff.

The price may be steep, but they are by far (IMHO) the best looking ones to date. They did get the rights for their likenesses from the BBC for starters, so they don't look as half-arsed as the ones put out by other companies.

 Azazelx wrote:
As Aesop said - it depends on what you're playing on. I was thinking of playing some 15mm BA on a 2x2 surface, for example. Cutting down the ranges to cm would (potentially) allow a bit more movement without being under fire.

This has huge appeal to me. A 4x4 or 4x6 table barely fits anywhere in my house (big house, but no individually big rooms, it's always very cramped) and storing it is a pain in the arse. I end up just with a flat board and scattering some terrain on it.

But scaling it down to 2x2 or 2x3, they actually fit easily in a room so I could host a tournament in my house with several boards going at once. And I can store them, so it opens up the idea of making awesome scenic boards and having several of them, snowy hills, desert dunes, town on a hillside and just whipping out the one I want.

Just to be clear to the OP...from a guy wo has played a lot of hero quest and 40k over the years...bolt action is a GREAT alternanative to the grim dark. Clear rules, FAQs, multipart, plastic kits, decent prices, all made by a company who will email you with a heads up when they plan on price increases. Sure it's not exactly "historic", but when people stand around a 6x4 board with finite boundaries, push around plastic soldiers with a god like view of the AO, and roll six sided dice to determine what happens, all while claiming it to be closer to real life than other games it's absurd. Bolt action is a fun game....

game caught my eye(big WW2 buff) but the main issue with games of historic level...theres only so far you can take it..fiction goes alot longer..plus WW2 is beaten to death

So you're a "big WW2 buff" but you feel that "WW2 is beaten to death" and that "there's only so far you can take it" for Historical games? And it was important that you come into the BA thread in the historical gaming subforum to share that?

I mean, I don't play Infinity or WHFB, but I don't feel a compulsion to go into the threads in their subforums and gak the place up.

Well, the Korean war hasn't been beaten to death, and Bolt Action works very well for that conflict too.

 Azazelx wrote:
So you're a "big WW2 buff" but you feel that "WW2 is beaten to death" and that "there's only so far you can take it" for Historical games? And it was important that you come into the BA thread in the historical gaming subforum to share that?

I mean, I don't play Infinity or WHFB, but I don't feel a compulsion to go into the threads in their subforums and gak the place up.

Yes i do enjoy history, but WW2 is over worked, i've played a decent amount of mainstream WW2 games and yes they were fun until the mini well runs dry. Then you get companies churning out models that had little to no effect on the war or hell never even saw the war (pershing, king tiger, elephant, jagtiger..the list goes on and on). Essentially when stuff like that surfaces the game loses its historic value and becomes another meta driven game. I did not come into this thread to attack any of you that play historic games, i just wish they would put some spotlight on other confilicts in history instead of rehashing WW@ over and over

Crimson Heretic wrote:

Yes i do enjoy history, but WW2 is over worked, i've played a decent amount of mainstream WW2 games and yes they were fun until the mini well runs dry. Then you get companies churning out models that had little to no effect on the war or hell never even saw the war (pershing, king tiger, elephant, jagtiger..the list goes on and on). Essentially when stuff like that surfaces the game loses its historic value and becomes another meta driven game. I did not come into this thread to attack any of you that play historic games, i just wish they would put some spotlight on other confilicts in history instead of rehashing WW@ over and over

I can certainly see your point of view. However, someone like myself isn't interested wholly in scenario play and does enjoy pick up and play games. So Bolt Action works well for that - it's WW2 _themed_ but I can fight my 1000 point army against anybody else's 1000 point army and have a fun game. It's also great for "what if" scenarios and such. Maybe I wanna have a "destroy the fully operational Maus" as an objective in a game!

WW2 is the largest conflict in human history. There's everything from hand to hand combat in close quarters to the deployment of atomic weaponry. It spans pretty much every conceivable terrain type.

If you think it's overworked, the issue is with you and not the period.

 frozenwastes wrote:
WW2 is the largest conflict in human history. There's everything from hand to hand combat in close quarters to the deployment of atomic weaponry. It spans pretty much every conceivable terrain type.

If you think it's overworked, the issue is with you and not the period.

Definitely. Always bugs me when people see WWII (or any other historical period, for that matter) as a "trope" or "universe" to be played out.

Crimson Heretic wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
So you're a "big WW2 buff" but you feel that "WW2 is beaten to death" and that "there's only so far you can take it" for Historical games? And it was important that you come into the BA thread in the historical gaming subforum to share that?

I mean, I don't play Infinity or WHFB, but I don't feel a compulsion to go into the threads in their subforums and gak the place up.

Yes i do enjoy history, but WW2 is over worked, i've played a decent amount of mainstream WW2 games and yes they were fun until the mini well runs dry. Then you get companies churning out models that had little to no effect on the war or hell never even saw the war (pershing, king tiger, elephant, jagtiger..the list goes on and on). Essentially when stuff like that surfaces the game loses its historic value and becomes another meta driven game. I did not come into this thread to attack any of you that play historic games, i just wish they would put some spotlight on other confilicts in history instead of rehashing WW@ over and over

Pretty much every war is covered by figures... my 2nd Afghan War figures, or my Franco-Thai War confirms that. Big wide world of historical gaming, you may want to explore it.

I have no idea how you get bored of a period. Im still learning about WW2 after 30 years of reading and teaching... so many scenarios to play, so much to research.

Crimson Heretic wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
So you're a "big WW2 buff" but you feel that "WW2 is beaten to death" and that "there's only so far you can take it" for Historical games? And it was important that you come into the BA thread in the historical gaming subforum to share that?

I mean, I don't play Infinity or WHFB, but I don't feel a compulsion to go into the threads in their subforums and gak the place up.

Yes i do enjoy history, but WW2 is over worked, i've played a decent amount of mainstream WW2 games and yes they were fun until the mini well runs dry. Then you get companies churning out models that had little to no effect on the war or hell never even saw the war (pershing, king tiger, elephant, jagtiger..the list goes on and on). Essentially when stuff like that surfaces the game loses its historic value and becomes another meta driven game. I did not come into this thread to attack any of you that play historic games, i just wish they would put some spotlight on other confilicts in history instead of rehashing WW@ over and over

So... why did you come into the Bolt Action thread to piss on the WW2 period? Also not seeing a lack of "spotlight" on any other period - unless perhaps you think this particular WW2 game should also be catering for other periods? There's a pile of other periods where people are actively playing games - and I'd wager they're more popular than WW2 in many cases. Ancients, Napoleonics, ECW, ACW. There's stuff available in a variety of scales for most any conflict between 3000bc-40,000ad Go find what you're actually interested in and be positive and interesting talking about that rather than choosing to come into the WWII threads and bitch about what you don't like about the period - which seems to be more of an anti-FoW rant from your latest post. Dakka isn't especially historical-heavy anyway, so you might find somewhere like TMP or lead-adventure more to your taste in terms of people discussing other specific historical periods that appeal to you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...and interestingly, the entirety of your posts/contribution to the Historical forums here on Dakka are the two posts in this thread bitching about WW2 being like, so played out...

I've said this elsewhere, but it bears saying here. Do not buy Warlord Games tank kits and only buy the infantry kits if you like their models (which are well detailed, and do look good, but...).

They are ALWAYS miscast in some fashion; barrels that are paper thin and warped (i.e. insufficient metal), tank metals are almost always rock hard and super brittle, resin is typically warped plus miscast plus huge mold lines, barrels are often bent all the way around such that fixing them will break them, and so forth.

I thought I'd save 20 bucks and buy their Chaffee and M3A1 Half Track. Dumb me, I knew better, should have spent the extra cash and bought the Company B models or waited for JTFM to finish his M3A1 and picked up a Locust.

They're fixable enough, it just means you do have to fix them (the fubar garand and carbine barrels are a royal PITA to fix though).

1/72 might be the way to go if you have other folks that are okay gaming in that scale. It's much cheaper and a much larger variety of manufacturers (although 28mm has it's fair share, depending on exactly what you are after you might find getting suitable models hard).

Have you had any experience with their plastic vehicles? Are they as shabby?

 Azazelx wrote:
...and interestingly, the entirety of your posts/contribution to the Historical forums here on Dakka are the two posts in this thread bitching about WW2 being like, so played out...

I was into the Carlist War before Perry released their range. Too played out for me now.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
1/72 might be the way to go if you have other folks that are okay gaming in that scale. It's much cheaper and a much larger variety of manufacturers (although 28mm has it's fair share, depending on exactly what you are after you might find getting suitable models hard).

The problem I had with 1/72 is infantry models. There's a LOT of soft plastic models but of wildly varying quality and soft plastic is an absolute nightmare to work with. I bought some 1/72 Airfix Afrikakorps and gave up on them after a few hours of no success trying to clean mould lines off them (tried hot wire, hot knife, soldering iron, scraping and sanding doesn't work).

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
I've said this elsewhere, but it bears saying here. Do not buy Warlord Games tank kits and only buy the infantry kits if you like their models (which are well detailed, and do look good, but...).

Hmm, I did have some bad casts of their earlier kits (the Opel Blitz was terrrrrrible), but I recently got a Puma and a 7TP which were both crisp and perfectly cast.
However Warlord plastics have in my experience so far been excellent. I think my four 251/1's took a total of 30 minutes to assemble and look just great.
I also bought some Polish infantry recently and a couple had the rifle tips broken off, Warlord's new CS rep (Richard Dando, who is single-handedly redefining what good CS means) sent out replacement figures AND a freebie for my trouble.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
I've said this elsewhere, but it bears saying here. Do not buy Warlord Games tank kits and only buy the infantry kits if you like their models (which are well detailed, and do look good, but...).

Hmm, I did have some bad casts of their earlier kits (the Opel Blitz was terrrrrrible), but I recently got a Puma and a 7TP which were both crisp and perfectly cast.
However Warlord plastics have in my experience so far been excellent. I think my four 251/1's took a total of 30 minutes to assemble and look just great.
I also bought some Polish infantry recently and a couple had the rifle tips broken off, Warlord's new CS rep (Richard Dando, who is single-handedly redefining what good CS means) sent out replacement figures AND a freebie for my trouble.

I was underwhelmed with the American GI's I've seen (heads are too big for their bodies), and the metal paratroopers always have at least one broken rifle. I was perhaps a bit harder on them last night that I should have been. The paratrooper models are well detailed, it's just frustrating having to scrap and rebuild so many rifles (I think I'm at about 6 to 8 rifles for about 25 models).

The barrel on my Puma shattered in my hands at first touch of the xacto. The Panzer IV barrel blunted several blades, and was of a similar fragile cast (I ended up grinding the flashing down in the end in places I was so worried about the barrel fracturing), also the mounting arms for the side armor will filled with the brittle flash, which could not be cut or removed with a xacto without shattering it, I tried to grind it out but that ruined one grinding bit and then shattered (meaning I have to build up parts of the mounts from plasticard). The Chaffee I have came with two front hatches that were the same (instead of opposite sides like they should be), a pintle mg that had warped dental floss for a barrel and no suitable way to build the stand, and warped treads (I had to shim with plasticard and now have to putty up the gaps) with massive flash/cast errors. My Half Track's rear door does not line up correctly and will require some work to correct.

Infantry, yes, I would probably buy again. Vehicles, no. Their stuff is just too sloppy.

I've recently built and painted their plastic T-34s. I've not had any experience with their metal/resin vehicles, aside from an M10 I've had for years that I still haven't built yet.

Short version on the T-34s:
They were lovely to assemble and paint.

Long version:
http://azazelx.wordpress.com/2014/09/21/from-the-painting-desk-6-bolt-action-t-3485-citadel-ghosts/
http://azazelx.wordpress.com/2014/09/24/from-the-painting-desk-7-warlord-games-t-3485-soviet-tanks/
http://azazelx.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/bolt-action-28mm-t-3485-tank-platoon/

^^ Excellent work, man. Great weathering too. Everybody should check those tanks out.

I'm working on Soviets right now and I'm just about a 13 guys into a 40 man box. Your tanks have inspired me to paint my armor support. Maybe I'll switch to armor at the 20 mark to break it up a little.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
[snip horror stories]
Infantry, yes, I would probably buy again. Vehicles, no. Their stuff is just too sloppy.

Good lord man! Yeah if I had your experiences I would not be very happy either.
I would email Rich (info@warlordgames.com) about the broken rifles and any other problems. He's really great and he'll have replacements out to you asap.
Remember you should always report bad QC to any company - sometimes they don't know the product going out is bad if they have a caster/packing person who just isn't good at their job.
Plus the more replacements they have to send out, they're losing money, they'll then be forced to fix the problem in their company that allows bad product to go out.

I've been holding off on this for a long time due to having so much else on the go, but I think Tank War will have to be done... might see about getting a Panzer platoon for Christmas.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
[snip horror stories]
Infantry, yes, I would probably buy again. Vehicles, no. Their stuff is just too sloppy.

Good lord man! Yeah if I had your experiences I would not be very happy either.
I would email Rich (info@warlordgames.com) about the broken rifles and any other problems. He's really great and he'll have replacements out to you asap.
Remember you should always report bad QC to any company - sometimes they don't know the product going out is bad if they have a caster/packing person who just isn't good at their job.
Plus the more replacements they have to send out, they're losing money, they'll then be forced to fix the problem in their company that allows bad product to go out.

I have to agree with this. Warlord Games' customer support is superb. We're talking about the same level or even better than GW.

 Azazelx wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
[snip horror stories]
Infantry, yes, I would probably buy again. Vehicles, no. Their stuff is just too sloppy.

Good lord man! Yeah if I had your experiences I would not be very happy either.
I would email Rich (info@warlordgames.com) about the broken rifles and any other problems. He's really great and he'll have replacements out to you asap.
Remember you should always report bad QC to any company - sometimes they don't know the product going out is bad if they have a caster/packing person who just isn't good at their job.
Plus the more replacements they have to send out, they're losing money, they'll then be forced to fix the problem in their company that allows bad product to go out.

I have to agree with this. Warlord Games' customer support is superb. We're talking about the same level or even better than GW.

I probably should have. However the shops I purchased through said this was often a problem they had with Warlord. So I have fixed most everything as I went along.

Their older QC certainly had issues. I managed to get a Kubelwagen minus seats and steering wheel plus a boxed set of SS where the mortar crew was horribly miscast for a huge discount from a local store.

The stuff I got recently was good. The rifle straps on the sprue have snapped a couple of times, but no gorilla arms or peanut heads.