I wanna see a list of unbalanced units and models.
Is it too powerful for the points cost?
Is it too weak for its points cost.



I'll start.

Eldar Farseer on a bike. 115 PTS
3+4++ mastery lvl 3 psyker on a bike.

Why am I paying 165 for Tigirius?

Does anyone know anyone who plays Vangaurd Vets?

Ok, I'll have a think through the Tau codex.

No model really comes out as being way too good (especially once 7th made the Riptide significantly less effective). We do have some questionable equipment costs though. Why does the Ion Accelerator only cost 5 points more than the Heavy Burst Cannon? I don't know. Why can our tanks get a twin linked smart missile system for the same points as a twin-linked burst cannon (not even two separate burst cannons like the old codex, and as such completely inferior in every possible way)? I don't know. Why can 2 markerlight tokens remove everything from 2+ to 6+ cover saves? I don't know.

Oh yes, and of course, one of my favorite things in the codex, the Early Warning Override. Why can every battlesuit get the option of having Interceptor for 5 points a model? I don't know...

Penitent Engine. Armor 11 open topped walker. No guns. 85 points.

Repentia. Just no. They suck. Expensive, no armor and will hit last.

Howling Banshees. Weak CC fighters in a shooty game.

Mutilators.

Warptalons

This is going to end up being another serpent hater/fanboy thread. Putting my money on it.

Poly Ranger wrote:This is going to end up being another serpent hater/fanboy thread. Putting my money on it.

And/Or another Learn to Play thread, I'd guess. How long before someone comes by and says something it ludicrous ubercheeze or complete filthy garbage unplayable and someone comes by and disagrees?

One man's trash is another man's treasure, but yeah, if I were a betting man, I'd guess it won't take long before we get to GW working with the illuminati enter a conspiracy to prop up the immanent demise of the former by insidiously forcing the unquenchable evil of terrible game balance on people.


Or, you know, the thread gets locked.

 Ailaros wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:This is going to end up being another serpent hater/fanboy thread. Putting my money on it.

And/Or another Learn to Play thread, I'd guess. How long before someone comes by and says something it ludicrous ubercheeze or complete filthy garbage unplayable and someone comes by and disagrees?

One man's trash is another man's treasure, but yeah, if I were a betting man, I'd guess it won't take long before we get to GW working with the illuminati enter a conspiracy to prop up the immanent demise of the former by insidiously forcing the unquenchable evil of terrible game balance on people.


Or, you know, the thread gets locked.

You just made me crack up!

- SM Land Raiders still the only ones which can't be upgraded with dozer blades/terrain ignoring gear.
- Removing ALL cover with 2 markerlights.
- Helbrecht - being a melee murder HQ - doesn't have a pistol and is ridiculously expensive.
- Same goes with the Emperor's Champion, but threefold: 2-Wounded dude with Chaplain-esque gear (2+/4++), but worse than Chaplain's statline, has an AP2 sword with either lousy strength or an initiative of the powerfist - AND costs more than cheaply yet decently kitted Captain.
- Sisters of Battle in general. Please, GW, buff 'em good.
- Inquisitorial Chimeras having 5 firepoints.
- Captain Shrike's points per usefulness = pick another HQ.
- The Dark Eldar. They need a new codex. I feel bad for those guys...
- Nob bikers' points cost need to be increased (NOT decreased, gee dubs!)

Those are the things which came to my mind.

Its not hard to see which units recieved rules designed to drive sales. Riptide, ion accelerator in particular comes to mind. At the time the Tau codex was released, and the Riptide was introduced - Tau model sales were abysmal. Its not conspiracy theory to draw the obvious conclusion of GW manipulating game balance to increase the bottom line.

Having said that, Khorne Berserkers are not threatening in CC, and are way overcosted.

I remember when khorne berzerkers were good. 21 points for a model with 4 ws5 str4 init5 attacks on the charge, with a champion that was 3 attacks base.

Well, in the blood angels dex, regular predators are useless, as are captains (ugh). I think farseers are wayyyy undercosted. Tau cheese is balanced by the lack of good troops and mediocre transports.

sand.zzz wrote:
Its not hard to see which units recieved rules designed to drive sales. Riptide, ion accelerator in particular comes to mind. At the time the Tau codex was released, and the Riptide was introduced - Tau model sales were abysmal. Its not conspiracy theory to draw the obvious conclusion of GW manipulating game balance to increase the bottom line.

Having said that, Khorne Berserkers are not threatening in CC, and are way overcosted.

Khorne Zerkers are way too expensive.

it just amazes me how lopsided some of the models are.

my friend just started an Eldar army and its been my first experience playing against them. ridiculously powerful army.

but on a good note for Nids. the top guy in our escalation league is blowing the competition away with a solid Nid army. 3 wins, 35 victory points coming into the 4th game of 5.

Poor poor roughriders, I would have been happy of just a copy and paste of the kreig deathriders. They can do so work but only on that initial charge afterward I've only seen them die horribly.

Wraiths.

I just cannot get mine to stand up without like a dozen 40mm washers on the base.

Tyranid HQ slots. Playing at anything under 1000pts hurts options when Synapse is so necessary, an HQ is required (unbound is a silly concept and can get stuffed) and the cheapest is 125pts and incredibly lousy, needing to be 135 to be worth it's weight... That's special character point costs in most armies.

Killa Kanz. Too expensive for what they do and now have morale and lost DCCWs. My looted dreadnoughts from good ol' 5th are unlikely to come off the display shelf onto the gaming table any time soon.

Annihilation Barges are undercosted (to what degree is debatable).

Flayed ones, Lychguard, Praetorians and C'tan shards are all badly overcosted.

Possessed Chaos Marines. 26 points I can understand if they have Frag and Krak grenades or bolt pistols but they don't.

Genestealers, same issue. Same cost as a Space Marine yet worse armour save, no grenades and no ranged.

Nephilum are Overcosted thats for sure, and the Dark Talon may as well not exist.

having to spend point for Flakk missiles, makes them overcosted ((should be included with missile launchers))

Ralis wrote:

having to spend point for Flakk missiles, makes them overcosted ((should be included with missile launchers))

Exactly.

 Tigramans wrote:
- SM Land Raiders still the only ones which can't be upgraded with dozer blades/terrain ignoring gear.
- Removing ALL cover with 2 markerlights.
- Helbrecht - being a melee murder HQ - doesn't have a pistol and is ridiculously expensive.
- Same goes with the Emperor's Champion, but threefold: 2-Wounded dude with Chaplain-esque gear (2+/4++), but worse than Chaplain's statline, has an AP2 sword with either lousy strength or an initiative of the powerfist - AND costs more than cheaply yet decently kitted Captain.
- Sisters of Battle in general. Please, GW, buff 'em good.
- Inquisitorial Chimeras having 5 firepoints.
- Captain Shrike's points per usefulness = pick another HQ.
- The Dark Eldar. They need a new codex. I feel bad for those guys...
- Nob bikers' points cost need to be increased (NOT decreased, gee dubs!)

Those are the things which came to my mind.

Biker Nobz are not cheaper, they are the same cost as before. It's only our basic Warbikes that went down in cost. Not to mention Biker Nobz used to be pretty much the only units that ever earned their points back before the new codex update. Luckily, things improved for us so now every unit is useful (Cept Grots...still not very useful )

 unfassbarnathan wrote:
Killa Kanz. Too expensive for what they do and now have morale and lost DCCWs. My looted dreadnoughts from good ol' 5th are unlikely to come off the display shelf onto the gaming table any time soon.

Kanz are still good. The 'moral check' is not that big of a deal. It only makes them Snap Shot if they fail...which means at worst, they fire just like Boyz. Kanz should be running at their faces anyway. I'm not too upset over losing DCCW honestly, though I do feel they should have gotten an overall point reduction for that and the addition of the 'Crew Shaken' test. *shrug* I still use them almost every game though. Still models your opponent CAN NOT ignore, or they will chew threw things like mad.

Space marine terminators. Almost any army can volume of dice and these guys go into the dirt before they even get to do anything. I have a had a full squad of 10 assault terminators (5 TH/SS, 5 LC) get destroyed by a dozen death company with 2 powerfists, and that was when I charged THEM.

I second Space Marine terminators, especially tactical termies. They are beyond useless, too slow and frail for close combat, to weak and short ranged to be effective shooting. Storm bolters need to be salvo 2/4 and all terminators need FNP or an extra wound (or both) to be worth the points cost.

I think all of the chaos greater daemons are over priced in comparison to other MC and FMC. They are still good, but with the nerfs to FMC, they don't perform to their price tag.

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
Wraiths.

I just cannot get mine to stand up without like a dozen 40mm washers on the base.

Damnit!

I wanted to crack that joke :(




For me its hydras.... they lost there niche in a game where jinking became reeeeeeallly dumb.. even then i dont think they would of been good.

Lootas, Mek Guns, and Flash Gits.

Armor Saves are crap. Grots only get T7 not armor 3+. 9 times out of 10 they'll die turn 1 or have almost nothing turn 2. Have to put ICs in them to keep them alive.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Lootas, Mek Guns, and Flash Gits.

Armor Saves are crap. Grots only get T7 not armor 3+. 9 times out of 10 they'll die turn 1 or have almost nothing turn 2. Have to put ICs in them to keep them alive.

they're T7 with a ton of models for very few points, stick them in cover and they should be damn near impossible to clear except by assault. T7 means those grots are only getting hurt on 4's by plasma guns and on 6's by bolters (instead of 2's).

Meanwhile, Lootas put out more firepower per point than just about anything else in the game, point a full squad at any vehicle that isn't at least AV13 and watch it go bye-bye.

I'll grant that Flash Gitz are pretty lame though unfortunately.

Wyverns, should cost 80 points, not 65. They're too good at lower points levels.

Anything that can get fortune.

Roughriders. May as well take a sm army for same points and it will work better.
Ogryns. A screening unit should never cost more then the unit it is screening, when it gets ID by str 8 weapons.


Serpents should either be tanks or be resilient transports, not both at the same time.

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

GW works with the illuminati? It all makes sense!! Quick, somebody get Ailaros to a bunker. He's not safe anymore, he cracked their code. We should all go into hiding...

I'll start.

Eldar Farseer on a bike. 115 PTS
3+4++ mastery lvl 3 psyker on a bike.

Why am I paying 165 for Tigirius?

Good joke

In case it wasn't a joke, do you know that Tigurius is one of the best psykers/force multipliers in the entire game? He re-rolls your reserve rolls, has a free one-use-only Guide and also has a 75% chance of getting any spell you want. You'd need 2 farseers to accomplish this feat.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Lootas, Mek Guns, and Flash Gits.

Armor Saves are crap. Grots only get T7 not armor 3+. 9 times out of 10 they'll die turn 1 or have almost nothing turn 2. Have to put ICs in them to keep them alive.

Are you crazy? Mek Gunz shouldn't be in rage of ANYTHING on Turn 1, and if they are...you deployed WRONG. Lobbas for instance...48 inch range. Unless your opponent is playing SUPER ranged, they shouldn't be able to peg them. And with the ability to take extra crew, each gun has on average 3 or 4 T7 woulds, and the gun itself hals 2 T7 wounds. For 18 points base for Lobbas or Kannons, 3 points per extra wound you want. I see no unbalance in this.

As you pay for bigger guns, their ranges might be shorter. But it should be taking a LOT of firepower to take down these guns, even then. Odds are, if they went down turn 1, you didn't bring enough, or their rolls were Godly. Mek/Big Gunz are not unbalanced by any means.

Lootas and Gits, I could agree they are risky units with their non existent armor, but thats the price we pay for typically under costed models to begin with. You can't have everything without paying for it. Marines pay for their gear and it shows. When they could have less than a 1/4 of the models I've got...you know they are pricey. Effective! But pricey. The thing is, Orks take everything in twos, or threes. So if your bringing lootas, you should bring decent sized squads, and bring a couple of them. Bringing just 1 is useless unless you've got ways to keep them alive (Good cover, KFF)

I've never really found much in the Ork book to be 'unbalanced'. It's all pretty well costed, and we can bring a lot of everything. The only thing I feel right now isn't costed correctly, is Kanz. I agree with other people they are a tiny bit over priced for what they got in exchange, but they aren't so bad you can't ever field them again.

Whatever that quad autocannon AA vehicle is. That was Soooo powerful it's a good thing GW nerfed the crop out of it. We dodged that bullet. Now everything is nice and balanced.

 Musashi363 wrote:
Whatever that quad autocannon AA vehicle is. That was Soooo powerful it's a good thing GW nerfed the crop out of it. We dodged that bullet. Now everything is nice and balanced.

The Hydra? It was a very good single-purpose unit before, and they destroyed it, I haven't seen one on a table since the new book came out.

Makumba wrote:
Serpents should either be tanks or be resilient transports, not both at the same time.

It wouldn' be a problem if the Serpent was costeed like a landraider equivalent for Eldar and then a rhino equivalent vehicle should be added for aroud 100 points with no weapons other than perhaps a suriken cannon or TL catapults.

Oh and so far not turning into the Eldar flame thread some posters feared. Hooray for that.

Although, no longer in the codex, I would have said the Doom of Malantai. A 90 point model that by himself repeatedly wiped out more than 10 times his cost.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I second Space Marine terminators, especially tactical termies. They are beyond useless, too slow and frail for close combat, to weak and short ranged to be effective shooting. Storm bolters need to be salvo 2/4 and all terminators need FNP or an extra wound (or both) to be worth the points cost.

I think all of the chaos greater daemons are over priced in comparison to other MC and FMC. They are still good, but with the nerfs to FMC, they don't perform to their price tag.

I think the Lord of Change is undercosted, even at 305pts for what he does...
2x Greater Rewards + 3 levels of Divination and guaranteed S8/ap2 initiative-swinging attacks is stupid good. Get Precog and laugh.

Maybe Papa Nurgle is a bit pricey due to his slug's pace movement, but both the Kipper & 'Thirster are fine for their costs and what they bring.

Now our Princes definitely get overcosted when piling on the upgrades. Wings + a pair of Psyker Lv's on a T5/5++ platform is squishy for not great return, unless you luck into specific powers. (and no Divination access hurts too)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I second Space Marine terminators, especially tactical termies. They are beyond useless, too slow and frail for close combat, to weak and short ranged to be effective shooting. Storm bolters need to be salvo 2/4 and all terminators need FNP or an extra wound (or both) to be worth the points cost.

I think all of the chaos greater daemons are over priced in comparison to other MC and FMC. They are still good, but with the nerfs to FMC, they don't perform to their price tag.

I think the Lord of Change is undercosted, even at 305pts for what he does...
2x Greater Rewards + 3 levels of Divination and guaranteed S8/ap2 initiative-swinging attacks is stupid good. Get Precog and laugh.

Maybe Papa Nurgle is a bit pricey due to his slug's pace movement, but both the Kipper & 'Thirster are fine for their costs and what they bring.

Now our Princes definitely get overcosted when piling on the upgrades. Wings + a pair of Psyker Lv's on a T5/5++ platform is squishy for not great return, unless you luck into specific powers. (and no Divination access hurts too)

I just had a great unclean one, with iron arm decimate my council of waaagh! A 1100 point unit
Made me so sad

Godhammer Pattern Land Raiders are overcosted for what they do. They have long-range guns but need to get close for their role. I'd rather have a Predator Annihilator and a couple of Rhinos.

And Vanguard Veterans.

And, if we're allowed to go back to 5th Edition: Penal Legionnaires were absolute gak. I've never seen a unit fielded in my life.

Thousand Sons (particularily their 58 pt aspiring sorcerers) say hi. The dark apostle gets a mention here too. Sergeant Telion costs a pretty penny for what he brings, and who needs WS5 on a backfield model with no specialized close combat weaponry and a 4+ save?

CSM 13ppm vs Grey Hunters (new codex) 14ppm

Same gear, same stats. Only GH get ATSKNF, Counterattack, Acute Senses. To get counterattack (+rage) on the CSM it's 2ppm for MoK. big lols

ATSKNF is probably the most undercosted thing ingame, pretty much free for fearless++.

BladeSwinga wrote:
Thousand Sons (particularily their 58 pt aspiring sorcerers) say hi. The dark apostle gets a mention here too. Sergeant Telion costs a pretty penny for what he brings, and who needs WS5 on a backfield model with no specialized close combat weaponry and a 4+ save?

I really wish the Dark Apostle had the option to take a bike. That alone would really boost his standing.

Special weapons having universal costs.

Why does a Guardsman pay the same points for a power weapon/fist as a space marine - despite being both weaker and less survivable?

Why do 1-wound sergeants pay the same points for power weapons (of all kinds) as HQs - even though they have fewer attacks, worse WS and are just much less survivable?

DE Weapons:
Agoniser - Not a poison weapon, and now only AP3. Sigh. Our glass-cannon seems to be lacking ammunition.

Electrocorrosive Whip - Does anyone ever use this? I feel you could knock off 75% of its price and it would still never see play.

Flesh Gauntlet - Is there some sort of design code whereby crap weapons have to cost 20pts? I can't think of many situations where this would be better than Venom Blades (and it costs 4 times as much), and even fewer where poison-shooting wouldn't work even better. Still, at least it's available on the combat beast that is the Haemonculus...

Mindphase Gauntlet - An initiative-based weapon that's exclusive to I4 models (And the Haem. Ancient). Also very specific in its targets, and doesn't actually improve your combat abilities one iota. At least it's cheap, I guess.

Djin Blade - Combine with soul-trap and you can create possibly the only HQ in the game capable of instant-deathing himself. I'm not sure what particular issue that ability solves, but it's bound to solve something.

Blasters/Dark Lances - Can we please stop pretending that 'Lance' is a good rule? That way these things might actually end up reasonably costed - instead of being overpriced garbage that devour all other anti-vehicle weapons.

Heat Lances - Well, good try, only 2pts more than the far superior marine meltas. But I guess these have Lance so must automatically be better... even though they lose 2pts of strength in the bargain (meaning they will, at best, equal marine meltas).


Necron Weapons:

Voidblade - why does this cost as much as a warscythe? Why does it cost *more* than a warscythe on destroyer lords?

Transdimensional Beamer - do you feel that your wraiths are too mobile? Would you like a short-range weapon that requires them to remain stationary? Well look no further!

 Desubot wrote:

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
Wraiths.

I just cannot get mine to stand up without like a dozen 40mm washers on the base.

Damnit!

I wanted to crack that joke :(

HA! The yolks!

Grey Knight nonterminator units. Generally 6 points more then similar units from other SM codices but with a nemesis force weapon that laughs at power weapons, stormbolters, brotherhood of psykers, anti psyker grenades, aegis suit, and hatred for daemons.. Makes my genestealers cry in envy.

Dreadknight. Simple obscene for the points. Especially considering what it can do to other MC, especially those without an invulnerable save.

Tyrannofex, for 195 points base it doesn't pack anywhere near enough ranged firepower, is massively weak in close combat for the points, no ability to deepstrike to quickly bring its medium ranged (and not wonderful) weapons to bear, and lacks any ranged AP3 or better ranged weapons. Compared to Riptides and Wraithknights is grossly deficient.

Tervigon, for 190 points, again no significant ranged fire, often spawns only one or two broods before loosing the ability, and again, is not very good in close combat for a 190 points model. Just sits there and provides synapse and maybe some a psychic power if it got a decent one.

And because I play mostly against SM, who cannot be overrun, I will put up the Haruspex. For a CC specialist it needs either a higher WS, significantly higher, or more attacks. With crushing claws its good against vehicles, but all tyranid MC already are, and carnifex are still better for far less points. (Although this guy does make me think the codex might have been written knowing about the change to smash rule in 7th). Its potential extra attacks on charge are good, but with its low WS often miss. Against troop that can be overrun, its not horrible, although its average initiative, your still going to need luck to crush them. If the creature gained a wound for each model it removed in CC, then I think it would be more worth fielding.

(All opinions based on playing 6th ed, not 7th)

PS, I agree standard terminators need either something to make them more durable or greater firepower. Back in 2nd edition they were very expensive but extremely hard to kill without heavy weapons. If you look at how the points have come down standard SM were 35, and are now 14. Terminators were 60 and are now 40, and the new armor save system makes them significantly easier to kill. Especially since when you figure in that you only get an invulnerable save or armor save now, you got both back in 2nd. That change in point ratios, in my opinion, is why termies come across as being very weak now a days, since the stats otherwise remain the same.

Spell familiar. Omgwtfbbq what my Farseers or Librarians would give for that.

And Tigris. How is he less than 200 points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SM bikes are undercoated, ASM are overcosted.

Serpents and Windriders I don't think points increases are the right fix for.

Yriel. Went from a decently priced close combat beast with poor saves to an overpriced mediocre close combat guy with poor saves AND rerolls his own successful saves.

Riptide. Shooting MCs should never have 2+ saves unless they have another disadvantage. Shooting MCs should not have an inv save. Shooting MCs should not have jet/jump packs. Its firepower is about right for its point value, but its resiliency is in the 300 point range. Should have been costed ~250 like the wraithknight is.

Serpents and Guardian Jetbikes i would agree are both too cheap. I took at least 3 squads of 3 jetbikes back when they were 22 points per model and thought they were great.

Banshees... yeah

Tyranids: 70% of the codex

Triarch Preatorians.

A 40pt CC unit with 1 attack apiece. And I2. And nothing but a 3+ armour save to protect them.

 vipoid wrote:
Triarch Preatorians.

A 40pt CC unit with 1 attack apiece. And I2. And nothing but a 3+ armour save to protect them.

To be fair, they are jump inf and S5/T5. And they can get S6 pistols to give them 2A rending entropic strike. They do pale in comparison to Wraiths, but so do most units. They should have been WS5 2A though to make both wep options more appealing and give them some advantage over wraiths.

 zephoid wrote:

To be fair, they are jump inf and S5/T5.

Really doesn't mean much for a 40pt model.

 zephoid wrote:
And they can get S6 pistols to give them 2A rending entropic strike.

At the cost of AP2 attacks. Still probably better, but neither exactly feels like you're getting your points worth.

 zephoid wrote:
They do pale in comparison to Wraiths, but so do most units.

Hence why I didn't compare them to wraiths.

 zephoid wrote:
They should have been WS5 2A though to make both wep options more appealing and give them some advantage over wraiths.

I think WS4 would have been fine - what they need is more defence. Wraiths have a 3+ invulnerable save and 2 wounds apiece (and can actually strike first), Praetorians have just a 3+ save and will srike last against virtually everything in the game - assuming they even make it to combat.

Actually, scratch that, what they need is to not be 40 sodding points. They're slightly stronger and tougher than assault marines... but cost more than twice as much. Not a good place to be.

Rumbleguts wrote:

Tyrannofex, for 195 points base it doesn't pack anywhere near enough ranged firepower, is massively weak in close combat for the points, no ability to deepstrike to quickly bring its medium ranged (and not wonderful) weapons to bear, and lacks any ranged AP3 or better ranged weapons. Compared to Riptides and Wraithknights is grossly deficient.

T-fex is only 175 points. With e-grubs 185. Agreed that it is not that great in close combat, but its Acid Spray Torrent weapon is plenty good against Xenos armies. Definitely not "the worst."

Poly Ranger wrote:
This is going to end up being another serpent hater/fanboy thread. Putting my money on it.

Everyone will list that one model that made them lose the game, or the other model that everyone loves to hate. Threads like this are the worst.

Yeah, the Tyrannofex really doesn't seem bad in the new book.

It's expensive, but it's also a 6-wound MC with a 2+ save. Not really the sort of thing I'd want to see becoming cheap.

It might not have much in the way of low-ap weapons, but it can still put out a lot of ignores-cover wounds on a squad.

It's not amazing in combat, but it's still a MC - so it can threaten any vehicle (and should kill most without needing to Smash). Also, even if it can't kill a squad in a reasonable time frame, it can still tie one up in combat. 6 T6 wounds with a 2+ save are rarely easy to remove. And, because of Fearless, you have to remove every last one (you can't make it flee).

It doesn't excel at much (save perhaps for destroying large units of fragile infantry), but it's a decent enough all-rounder. And, certainly much better now than it was in the last book.

All that said, I'm still amazed that the Fleshborer Hive is considered an upgrade. Hey, Helldrake players, how would you like to pay 5pts to upgrade your Bale Flamer to a Hurricane Bolter?

Yes, my mistake, tyrannofexes (or should that be tyrannofi?) are only 175, not 195.

My beef about them aren't that they are not fairly tough, which they are. I don't want to seem them reduced in point cost, I want to seem them with at least one weapon that hurt guys with a 3+ armor save at range, since they are supposed to be a tyranid gunboat. A gunboat that doesn't have a weapon option that can penetrate what is one of the most common armor saves among armies out there (every SM chapter, tau crisis, many elder, SoB, etc) is not a very useful gunboat. I wish it had another weapon option to do this. The ability to take two main weapons would also have been useful, impossible to model which is probably why this would never happen, despite other nontyranid MC being able to.

I don't think the tyrannofex should be great in CC, its supposed to be a gunboat. Frankly I would be happy to see it with a WS of 2 if they gave it a BS of 4.

Another aspect I find vastly annoying is that the biomorphs are either defensive (regen, which I think is badly underpowered) or help when they assault/CC. A problem they share with hive guards. Yet they are not supposed to be assaulters. Not a single biomorph to allow them to reroll to hits or wounding on a ranged attack, that gives a ranged attack rend or shred or any such. Nothing to ignore nightfighting, although with their shorter ranged weapons that isn't as huge a problem. No way to give them interceptor or skyfire. Nothing that might allow them to increase range, or rate, of fire. Not even something that would allow them to run and shoot once per game. Hell, they could have at least allowed the thorax biomorph to be fired in addition to other weapons for the tyrannofex at least.

I suppose the real answer here is to simply use exocrines. Which is a great unit and a nice model. I just hate to see that awesome looking tyrannofex sitting on my shelf because I know against the units I keep running up against (Firesight Tau and SM variants) the tyrannofex tends to be a unit they can just ignore or tie up.

Tyrannofexes probably don't deserve to be a worse unit, certainly there are worse in the tyranid codex, but it sure feels like a unit with a lot of promise and very little output for the points.

Johnnytorrance wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I second Space Marine terminators, especially tactical termies. They are beyond useless, too slow and frail for close combat, to weak and short ranged to be effective shooting. Storm bolters need to be salvo 2/4 and all terminators need FNP or an extra wound (or both) to be worth the points cost.

I think all of the chaos greater daemons are over priced in comparison to other MC and FMC. They are still good, but with the nerfs to FMC, they don't perform to their price tag.

I think the Lord of Change is undercosted, even at 305pts for what he does...
2x Greater Rewards + 3 levels of Divination and guaranteed S8/ap2 initiative-swinging attacks is stupid good. Get Precog and laugh.

Maybe Papa Nurgle is a bit pricey due to his slug's pace movement, but both the Kipper & 'Thirster are fine for their costs and what they bring.

Now our Princes definitely get overcosted when piling on the upgrades. Wings + a pair of Psyker Lv's on a T5/5++ platform is squishy for not great return, unless you luck into specific powers. (and no Divination access hurts too)

I just had a great unclean one, with iron arm decimate my council of waaagh! A 1100 point unit
Made me so sad

So he killed 110 pts

Decimate means to kill one in ten.

Perhaps obliterate would fit better,and yes, GUO who get lucky can be very mean

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
This is going to end up being another serpent hater/fanboy thread. Putting my money on it.

Everyone will list that one model that made them lose the game, or the other model that everyone loves to hate. Threads like this are the worst.

Except that hasn't happened. Maybe try actually reading the thread.

Overpriced Units:

Genestealers: They should be terrifying, but WS is vastly overpriced. Maybe if they had an extra attack and we're 12-13 points.

Banshees: I remember back before 6th, that when you did the math that scorpions were better 4,5,6+ save enemies, equal for 3+, but banshees were great against 2+ saves. Then 6th happened and their power swords could no longer perform against their ideal targets. they still did not fix them in the new Eldar codex (and then gave Eldar a plethora of ways to ignore armor saves with shooting).It's like they did not think it through.

And finally, the Canoness. She is so overcosted and is the only non special character HQ available to Sisters. She is the same cost as a Warboss! The Canoness and Tyranid Warrior Prime weep when looking at other HQ choices.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Overpriced Units:

Genestealers: They should be terrifying, but WS is vastly overpriced. Maybe if they had an extra attack and we're 12-13 points.

Banshees: I remember back before 6th, that when you did the math that scorpions were better 4,5,6+ save enemies, equal for 3+, but banshees were great against 2+ saves. Then 6th happened and their power swords could no longer perform against their ideal targets. they still did not fix them in the new Eldar codex (and then gave Eldar a plethora of ways to ignore armor saves with shooting).It's like they did not think it through.

And finally, the Canoness. She is so overcosted and is the only non special character HQ available to Sisters. She is the same cost as a Warboss! The Canoness and Tyranid Warrior Prime weep when looking at other HQ choices.

Agreed. Canoness, same price of a Chaos Lord. Let that sink in.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
Overpriced Units:

Genestealers: They should be terrifying, but WS is vastly overpriced. Maybe if they had an extra attack and we're 12-13 points.

Banshees: I remember back before 6th, that when you did the math that scorpions were better 4,5,6+ save enemies, equal for 3+, but banshees were great against 2+ saves. Then 6th happened and their power swords could no longer perform against their ideal targets. they still did not fix them in the new Eldar codex (and then gave Eldar a plethora of ways to ignore armor saves with shooting).It's like they did not think it through.

And finally, the Canoness. She is so overcosted and is the only non special character HQ available to Sisters. She is the same cost as a Warboss! The Canoness and Tyranid Warrior Prime weep when looking at other HQ choices.

Agreed. Canoness, same price of a Chaos Lord. Let that sink in.

What. The. Heck.

 Happyjew wrote:
Although, no longer in the codex, I would have said the Doom of Malantai. A 90 point model that by himself repeatedly wiped out more than 10 times his cost.

Thanks for bringing up the traumatic memories. I thought I'd suppressed them by now. Still remember the guy who took 4 squads of genestealers with brood lords and outflanked them all, a squad of the special Ymgarl genestealers, and also took the Doom. You had the wonderful choice of using all your deployment zone and getting eaten by genestealers from outflank on turn 2 or clumping up in the middle 3 ft and getting the Doom dropped on your head turn 2, and addition to that no matter where you deployed you were going to get extra special genestealers charging at you from some random terrain piece turn 2 (gotta love being able to mess with reserve rolls). That kicked my butt so many times through 4th and 5th edition...

There's a reason I reflexively reach for Early Warning Overrides and Fusion Blasters on everything that can take them. I still worry that the Doom will crawl its way back into the codex from whatever hellpit it's currently lurking in.

Warp Talons are ridiculously over costed. Mutilators would be a bad deal if they gave you 5 points for fielding one (ok I kid but those units suck).

GW seems to assign point values at random.
A Penitent Engine is 85 points, but a Predator is 75?

Huh?

That and the Doom beat Asuraman in melee, without wounding with his power.

Granted that's just an example of my dice hating me, but stil.

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW seems to assign point values at random.
A Penitent Engine is 85 points, but a Predator is 75?

Huh?

Also, compare a SM to a lot of troops and see the difference in stats and points.

e.g. A Tactical Squad 2pts per model more than a Battle Sister squad.

The Battle Sister squad gets a 6+ invulnerable save, an act of faith (which gives preferred enemy for a turn), and access to a Heavy Flamer.

For 2pts more, the Tactical Squad gets +1WS, +1S, +1T, +1I, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, and access to Plasmaguns, Plasma Cannons, Grav Guns and Drop pods. Oh, and Sisters pay an extra 5pts for their Rhino.

I think it's fair to say that SMs are getting a good deal on that one.

 Galorian wrote:
Annihilation Barges are undercosted (to what degree is debatable).

Flayed ones, Lychguard, Praetorians and C'tan shards are all badly overcosted.

This. A thousand times this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
-Markerlights are obnoxious.
-Wave Serpants are just way too good for anyone to not take.
-C'tan Shards usually end up being MORE expensive than a Riptide, yet nowhere near as survivable
-Scatterlasers need to not exist. I mean seriously, I don't know what GW was thinking with those...
-Grav guns are obnoxious
-TL Devourers are too good NOT to take on everything that can have one (Carnifexes/Hive Tyrants) I actually feel BAD that I use them, since they're really the only good option.
-I personally think the Swarmlord is rather TOO pricey, especially since he lost some stuff from the last codex.
-I don't care what people say, a 3++ on a Dreadnaught is dumb.
-CCB are too good. Like, WAY too good. I feel like "that guy" whenever I use one.

That's all I got for the moment.

A lot of things in the nid codex is pretty bad - not necessarily because the model is bad but the rules don't really support them or how they're supposed to operate. For example, you pay 105 points for raveners with claws that you deepstrike hoping to do some damage, but first they get to endure a round of shooting with a flak armor save. That is, assuming that there is something in synapse range because otherwise 50/50 on failing your IB and could end up wounding yourself.

There's other things too, like loss of eternal warrior on synapse means your 30 point warriors die on a 2+ from cheap krak or other high-strength weapons but that's for another thread (not that it hasn't been said several times before since the 5th-ed book (?) came out)

 vipoid wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW seems to assign point values at random.
A Penitent Engine is 85 points, but a Predator is 75?

Huh?

Also, compare a SM to a lot of troops and see the difference in stats and points.

e.g. A Tactical Squad 2pts per model more than a Battle Sister squad.

The Battle Sister squad gets a 6+ invulnerable save, an act of faith (which gives preferred enemy for a turn), and access to a Heavy Flamer.

For 2pts more, the Tactical Squad gets +1WS, +1S, +1T, +1I, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, and access to Plasmaguns, Plasma Cannons, Grav Guns and Drop pods. Oh, and Sisters pay an extra 5pts for their Rhino.

I think it's fair to say that SMs are getting a good deal on that one.

Both are overcosted in the current meta but that the SoB are more overcosted than the Tacticals, yes, that is certainly possible.

Of course, 'overcosted' here just means 'not top-tier', but hey, why would you take any unit if there is a better one available?

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned it, but what about a certain 100 point i've been expecting you?

 Ashiraya wrote:

Both are overcosted in the current meta but that the SoB are more overcosted than the Tacticals, yes, that is certainly possible.

Really? You think tacticals are overcosted?

Could you elaborate on that?

 Ashiraya wrote:

Of course, 'overcosted' here just means 'not top-tier', but hey, why would you take any unit if there is a better one available?

Not necessarily. Many of the 'top tier' units are top tier because they're overpowered/undercosted, and thus a terrible measurement for balance.

 vipoid wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Both are overcosted in the current meta but that the SoB are more overcosted than the Tacticals, yes, that is certainly possible.

Really? You think tacticals are overcosted?

Could you elaborate on that?

 Ashiraya wrote:

Of course, 'overcosted' here just means 'not top-tier', but hey, why would you take any unit if there is a better one available?

Not necessarily. Many of the 'top tier' units are top tier because they're overpowered/undercosted, and thus a terrible measurement for balance.

In order to achieve balance, units must be equally overpowered/undercosted.

This can be done by bringing all units down to Pyrovore level, down/up to Tactical Marine level, or up to Wave Serpent level. No matter the choice, balance is achieved.

For one choosing the latter, Tactical Marines are indeed overcosted, and they do appear such compared to the units that usually hit the table.

It is all very relative.

 Ashiraya wrote:


In order to achieve balance, units must be equally overpowered/undercosted.

This can be done by bringing all units down to Pyrovore level, down/up to Tactical Marine level, or up to Wave Serpent level. No matter the choice, balance is achieved.

Except that the most logical approach is to bring the outliers into line with the more average units.

The thing is, there really isn't much room for making Tactical Marines better - especially since the main way would be to lower their cost.

The thing is, look at all the units that cost less than tactical marines:

Guardsmen, veterans, gaunts, homogaunts, gargoyles, sisters of battle, DE warriors, wyches, trueborn, Necron Warriors, Dire Avengers - and this is far from an exhaustive list.

There are already problems with costing these units, because the costing of tactical marines has left so little room on manoeuvre.

Aside from the fact that the game has already suffered more than enough power-creep, adding more at this level is becoming completely impractical.

If anything, we should be looking to make a lot of units *more* expensive - so that there's more room for fine-tuning point costs.

.

Some tak marines are overcosted, DA for example cost the same but dant get chapter tactics, just stubborn. Seriously, stubborn as well as atsknf. And no grav guns. The standard tac squad needs to be measuring stick for all other infantry, and not all tac squads are created equal.

I feel daemonettes are a bit much as well.

stopcallingmechief wrote:
This is the first time ive ever seen anybody complain that tactical marines are overcosted. Didnt a Tactical marine list just finish second at the BAO? Could not disagree more.

Tactical Marines in the base SM dex survive, since they have access to plasma and grav, combi-weapons, drop pods, chapter tactics and so on stacking up. The pods especially is what makes them persevere in the tournament scene.

They are not good in basis but the above serves as the crutch. For now.

Other equivalents like CSM tacticals pretty much lose the above toys, making them fall apart like a house of cards.

Wasn't 2nd place Eldar, but 5 of the top 10 Marines? With at least one of them fielding 6x10man Tac squads?

 Ashiraya wrote:

Tactical Marines in the base SM dex survive, since they have access to plasma and grav, combi-weapons, drop pods, chapter tactics and so on stacking up. The pods especially is what makes them persevere in the tournament scene.

They are not good in basis but the above serves as the crutch. For now.

So, what exactly do you think is wrong with tactical squads?

 vipoid wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Tactical Marines in the base SM dex survive, since they have access to plasma and grav, combi-weapons, drop pods, chapter tactics and so on stacking up. The pods especially is what makes them persevere in the tournament scene.

They are not good in basis but the above serves as the crutch. For now.

So, what exactly do you think is wrong with tactical squads?

That they are entirely reliant on options and toys to stay useful at all.

Take away the drop pods and you won't see any Tac Marine lists winning tournaments.

They should be able to stand on their own feet, even if this means their toys need nerfing.

 Ashiraya wrote:


That they are entirely reliant on options and toys to stay useful at all.

Take away the drop pods and you won't see any Tac Marine lists winning tournaments.

Whether you're talking about special weapons or vehicles, it seems like the same could be said for a lot of units.

With regard to special weapons, we're at a rather depressing state whereby most basic weapons are pretty worthless - with their wielders often being little better than ablative wounds for the squad members carrying special/heavy weapons. Hell, at the moment, it's possible (and arguably even encouraged by the rules) to build armies that are completely immune to small-arms fire. And, even if that isn't the case, many armies can still be virtually immune to most weapons (most races can spam vehicles of one kind or another). And, because of the changes to scoring, you don't even need infantry in your army to capture objectives - let alone troops. This, to me, seems like an absolutely terrible state of affairs.

Anyway, moving on to vehicles, it seems like a lot of strong troop choices get their strength from vehicles. Outside of their transports, DE are basically guardsmen but twice as expensive, Eldar have their Wave Serpents for both resilience and firepower, Necrons have Ghost Arks and Night Scythes.

Maybe it's just how I look at things, but to me it seems very depressing. I think infantry (especially troops) should have an important role in games - rather than something you reluctantly take so that you can add another vehicle to your army.

Vespid....

Unless they were so cheap they'd basically be free there is literally no reason to bring them. Theyre uber squishy, short range, crap BS with a gun thats designed to kill marines even though damn near the entire army kills marines and it does a far worse job than the rest of the dex lol.
Only unit in the dex outside Farsight with "respectable" melee, but no weapons and crap strength so the WS and Init means nothing.

I have tried to find a valid use for them, but even within the FA slot theres units that are cheaper and do a better job at killing marines than vespid. I just dont get that unit.

Sigh...where do I start.

Rough Riders - Price is ok, their stat line is garbage, there's no inherent bonus for being on a mount (aside from increased movement), unlike every other army that can put guys on 'mounts'. It's cool they get access to special weapons now, but their weapon profile is stupid in that it's a one use (and yes, I understand how lances work.)

Ogryns - Jesus THESE fething guys. Standard Ogryns are comically bad and their Wilfred Brimly cousins are even worse. gakky invuln and an ap4 power weapon for a higher price than a GK players pays for a Paladin. Right, never fielding these.

Blood Angel HQ's - Do I really need to rehash this pile of crap?

Rough riders should get power lances base, problem almost solved.

 vipoid wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:


That they are entirely reliant on options and toys to stay useful at all.

Take away the drop pods and you won't see any Tac Marine lists winning tournaments.

Whether you're talking about special weapons or vehicles, it seems like the same could be said for a lot of units.

With regard to special weapons, we're at a rather depressing state whereby most basic weapons are pretty worthless - with their wielders often being little better than ablative wounds for the squad members carrying special/heavy weapons. Hell, at the moment, it's possible (and arguably even encouraged by the rules) to build armies that are completely immune to small-arms fire. And, even if that isn't the case, many armies can still be virtually immune to most weapons (most races can spam vehicles of one kind or another). And, because of the changes to scoring, you don't even need infantry in your army to capture objectives - let alone troops. This, to me, seems like an absolutely terrible state of affairs.

Anyway, moving on to vehicles, it seems like a lot of strong troop choices get their strength from vehicles. Outside of their transports, DE are basically guardsmen but twice as expensive, Eldar have their Wave Serpents for both resilience and firepower, Necrons have Ghost Arks and Night Scythes.

Maybe it's just how I look at things, but to me it seems very depressing. I think infantry (especially troops) should have an important role in games - rather than something you reluctantly take so that you can add another vehicle to your army.

I think Eldar are the only extreme offenders in this category. Taking 5 man DA squads is clearly min/maxing, but most Necron players take troops because the troops on their own are good. If the Eldar codex had been more balanced, I actually think 40k would be in a pretty good place right now.

Spoletta wrote:
I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned it, but what about a certain 100 point i've been expecting you?

He's just been around so long that everybody is used to him. The amount of options Coteaz gives for his points value is absurd.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
Rough riders should get power lances base, problem almost solved.

Funny thing is you can give the Sergeant one in addition to his hunting lance. I want to model that so bad.

Necron melee units are overcosted because necrons are not supposed to be gods in melee. They already rule everything else As for unbalanced, the Chaos Raptor models tip over a lot if you don't glue pennies to the bottom.

I feel the monolith could use a tuneup. Yeah it was must have in eariler editions but since 5th its a cheaper, slower, far less powerful landraider clowncar that takes up a HS slot. landing without error on it would be nice to see on it again. Or even the old +1 change to RP. Or a bit more of a price reduction. I'm not saying all three just one would be nice. Maybe even extend the range of it's door to 2d6.

 vipoid wrote:
With regard to special weapons, we're at a rather depressing state whereby most basic weapons are pretty worthless - with their wielders often being little better than ablative wounds for the squad members carrying special/heavy weapons.

So it's basically like modern warfare in that regard?

 Galorian wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
With regard to special weapons, we're at a rather depressing state whereby most basic weapons are pretty worthless - with their wielders often being little better than ablative wounds for the squad members carrying special/heavy weapons.

So it's basically like modern warfare in that regard?

Which I'd argue that it should not be.

I agree with Ashiraya on that. I wish bolter sisters/marines could matter too!

 Galorian wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
With regard to special weapons, we're at a rather depressing state whereby most basic weapons are pretty worthless - with their wielders often being little better than ablative wounds for the squad members carrying special/heavy weapons.

So it's basically like modern warfare in that regard?

I can't help but feel in a modern military squad the troops amount to more than just wound counters for a single special weapon

But yeah, I'm not a huge fan of how there's a large imbalance between the basic weapons and the special weapons in a squad. I blame the AP system, as using a save modifier system like we had in 2nd edition allows special weapons to have a modifier of, say, -2 or -3, so they stay better than basic weapons at taking out armoured targets but aren't completely dominating to the point where 9 out of 10 guys in a unit are just glorified wound counters.

I don't think that I agree with the assessment that basic guns are too weak versus special/heavy weapons. Since 4th edition on, rapid-fire weapons (the most common basic weapon type) have gotten significantly more destructive with nearly each edition. Craftworld and dark Eldar basic weapons are extremely potent and are better than some other armies specials. Recent editions have made the basic weapons very dangerous. I think this increase lethality of basic weapons have contributed to the current imbalance between shooting and close combat armies.

Bolters and lasguns can do some work these days.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But yeah, I'm not a huge fan of how there's a large imbalance between the basic weapons and the special weapons in a squad. I blame the AP system, as using a save modifier system like we had in 2nd edition allows special weapons to have a modifier of, say, -2 or -3, so they stay better than basic weapons at taking out armoured targets but aren't completely dominating to the point where 9 out of 10 guys in a unit are just glorified wound counters.

This... i would absolute love to go back to the old modifiers instead of AP... plus this ridiculous crap of only ap1/2 weapons being the only things that can pen and explode vehicles is irritating as hell.

The mere fact vehicles CAN explode is odd enough, the past where a mere krak grenade could blow up a rhino was silly.

Anyway, you want useless? behold the shield drone. you don't get a more glorified wound counter than that, considering he doesn't even have a las pistol. at least marine glorified wounds got themselves bolters and grenades that just might put a dent into something.


But yes, the current AP system is silly and encourages min-maxing too much (either pay for ap1/2, or dont bother with AP at all. rare cases of AP3 come up when a given gun is really good like an ion cannon or something)

I lost 18 DAs to Marine boltguns first turn in my last game. They may not matter in tourny play, but they can do a number in casuals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And 4 banshees, including the exarch.

i personally think that they should remove the Explode! result on vehicles since now they have HP and generally take less dakka than MCs to bring down even without an Explode! - just have the Explode! result cause an additional point of damage as well as losing a weapon, being immobilized, or crew stunned (D3 result to figure out which?). Most light vehicles are useless atm because they can be glanced to death so easily or utterly vaporized by anti tank weapons....really shouldnt have BOTH ways to die.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i personally think that they should remove the Explode! result on vehicles since now they have HP and generally take less dakka than MCs to bring down even without an Explode! - just have the Explode! result cause an additional point of damage as well as losing a weapon, being immobilized, or crew stunned (D3 result to figure out which?). Most light vehicles are useless atm because they can be glanced to death so easily or utterly vaporized by anti tank weapons....really shouldnt have BOTH ways to die.

Why not? MCs and infantry can die to either losing wounds, or something that causes instant death.

Off the top of my head:
Eldar:
Banshees need buffed.
Wave Serpent is fine, if they drop the range on the Shield-gun to say 18-24" and stop letting it be twin-linked from the laser lock. It should not be a weapon for the buffs, but not the weaknesses (like weapon destroyed results).
Guardian Jetbike units should be bumped up in minimum size if they are in the troop slot. Right now units of them are cheap, super fast, and super scoring. They need to lose one of those three. Make them 5+ or 6+ minimum for troops would help.

Necrons- Tesla needs to change to Shock- same rule, but does not get the bonus on snap-shots.
Invasion beam should let passengers disembark even if zooming, but always forced to snapshoot.
Mindshackle scarabs were fine before, but combined with challenges, they are rather OP.
Triarch Praetorians should go to 2+ armor.

Daemons-
Tzeentch Heralds and Daemon Princes should cap at ML2, and Pink Horrors at ML1, but let Pink fire be 1 dice minimum, with hits be based on the number sucesses- say d6 hits per warp charge harnessed. Replace Tzeentch trait with the ability to reroll one die per cast attempt- better psykers instead of tons more dice to throw.

Nids:
Genestealers- give them the ability to ignore terrain when moving or charging.

Tau Empire:
Bump Ion Accelerator up to 15 or 20 point upgrade. Drop skyfire upgrade to 15 points, bump interceptor upgrade to 15 points.
Vehicles can take a pair of Burst cannons or a TL Smart Missile system. SMS 5 points more than burst cannons.
Vespid Neutron Blaster should be bumped to Rapid Fire, or possibly Assault 2.

I just wish my SoB had another Troop choice. It's not like the basic humble Battle Sister is bad, just some people look a bit weird when you spam them - but you can't do anything else, can you? You need scoring units and those are it.