Again, all I have is what I have heard from others, and a gw store employee who said they stopped producing square bases (but not calvary bases). Rumor is that 9th was supposed to be done this year, but after looking at market loss to other games like warmahordes the decision was made to turn it into a more skirmish game, with far fewer models, and basic army boxes to be released ala old school mordheim. Rules will be included to play with your whole collection still, but they are more for big campaigns or apocalypse style battles like in 40k. They are shooting for the equivalent of 500 point games with individual models having more specialized rules and abilities, also like warmahordes. Now normally I don't spout this kind of stuff, since I have no concrete proof and it seems so far away from what gw would do. But I began hearing this about 3 months ago, and its been talked about a lot lately. It would make sense why they pushed back bertonia so long. My question is have you heard anything about this kind of change at all?
FOR THOSE WHO JUST WANT TO CHIME IN "THATS BS, WILL NEVER HAPPEN" I just want to start a thread to consolidate some of these rumors going around. Please don't just chime in with hate or to say how stupid the rumor is.
It would be very strange. But many things that happen with GW are very strange, so who knows. Perhaps there will be a new game built around a smaller number of figs. Fantasy does take a ton of them to play usually.
Sorry, but calling it BS is not 'hate', this needs a MOUNTAIN of salt to go with it.
My "sources" are second hand rumors and internet chats. That's why I started this, to see if anyone had anything more concrete. If nothing pans out from it we can all go on ignoring 9th edition fantasy when it pops up and is still to expensive for the new players to jump into.
Extremely unlikely. Making fantasy skirmish-based would take quite a bit of effort, and totally change the way it plays. I mean, the whole point of Fantasy is the way the unit blocks line up and how it isn't a skirmish game. Random suspicions have no particular validity in my book.
I think it would be interesting if it happened, though. It seems more likely to me that fantasy is being neglected simply because 40k is making more money right now, not because they have any grand plans for Fantasy.
Anyway, are you hoping this happens, or dreading that it might happen? Would you be excited if it went skirmish?
It seems more likely to me that fantasy is being neglected simply because 40k is making more money right now
Right now? I'd have thought that was true for many years now, with no sign of reversal. I wonder if Fantasy sales are even 10% of 40K these days.
It's not beyond the realm of disbelief to think that someone's bright idea for improving Fantasy sales is to turn it into a 40K clone, only with swords instead of guns. Well, even more so.
There's a big thread on this over on Warseer from some very reliable rumour mongers.
By the sounds of it, first there will be either a major campaign or a series of campaigns about the end times in which Nagash returns. This will allow GW to release any outstanding Army Books for 8th. Then 9th is supposed to be based in a post apocalyptic world where a lot of bad stuff has gone down.
There's still some confusion whether the skirmish will replace WFB (seems stupid to me) or be an additional option to make an introduction to Warhammer more affordable.
Ehhh... thing is, I know where this will lead eventually. It's an unending cycle of GW disappointment, even if the initial idea of skirmish letting me get into the game more cheaply.
At this point, there's a lot of fun skirmish fantasy games out, or coming out in the next few years.
Daemonslave wrote: There's a big thread on this over on Warseer from some very reliable rumour mongers.
By the sounds of it, first there will be either a major campaign or a series of campaigns about the end times in which Nagash returns. This will allow GW to release any outstanding Army Books for 8th. Then 9th is supposed to be based in a post apocalyptic world where a lot of bad stuff has gone down.
There's still some confusion whether the skirmish will replace WFB (seems stupid to me) or be an additional option to make an introduction to Warhammer more affordable.
That sounds both dubious and very very disconcerting. Dubious because GW surely still remember the total omnishambles that surrounded both the Eye of Terror and Storm of Chaos campaigns/storyline advancements, and given they rolled both of those events back and reset the clock at one minute to midnight(and in the case of 40K have confirmed they have no plans to change that ever again and will be exploring "historical" stuff instead) I would be extremely surprised to see them essentially do Storm of Chaos 2 - The Nagashening and then even further double-down on that concept by completely rewriting the Warhammer World as some post-apocalyptic fantasy-skirmish system. Disconcerting because it would sound like total arse even if I trusted GW's current fluff team to execute it competently, which I do not.
I think a roll back on points, army size etc are essential to give the game a chance of springing back to anything like a true companion for 40K,
but I just don't see GW going quite as far as a skirmish game in that direction (unless you consider 40K a skirmish game, we might get to that size if we're lucky)
Daemonslave wrote: There's a big thread on this over on Warseer from some very reliable rumour mongers.
By the sounds of it, first there will be either a major campaign or a series of campaigns about the end times in which Nagash returns. This will allow GW to release any outstanding Army Books for 8th. Then 9th is supposed to be based in a post apocalyptic world where a lot of bad stuff has gone down.
There's still some confusion whether the skirmish will replace WFB (seems stupid to me) or be an additional option to make an introduction to Warhammer more affordable.
AegisGrimm wrote: While Skirmish sounds like fun, GW is in the game of "selling giant armies", and that would run counter to that.
They have been known to change tactics when it could boost sales before. And tricking people into the "new, sleeker fantasy" ala warmahordes with the promise of far fewer models initially needed to purchase then ramping up what is eventually needed to play from basic models to a whole line sounds like something plausible for them. I don't put it past them to try bait and switch for one second.
Yodhrin wrote: I would be extremely surprised to see them essentially do Storm of Chaos 2 - The Nagashening and then even further double-down on that concept by completely rewriting the Warhammer World as some post-apocalyptic fantasy-skirmish system.
Especially since they gave the complete Tamurkhan cycle(which would lead us down an alternate future of Karl Franz's death and near collapse of the Empire to Chaos victory, IIRC) the axe for even hinting at such a huge status change.
Yodhrin wrote: I would be extremely surprised to see them essentially do Storm of Chaos 2 - The Nagashening and then even further double-down on that concept by completely rewriting the Warhammer World as some post-apocalyptic fantasy-skirmish system.
Especially since they gave the complete Tamurkhan cycle(which would lead us down an alternate future of Karl Franz's death and near collapse of the Empire to Chaos victory, IIRC) the axe for even hinting at such a huge status change.
Er, that was never meant to be legitimate canon change? It was meant to be exactly what you said: an alternate future.
The general shuttering of Warhammer Forge and the subsequent axing of the Tamurkhan cycle has far more to do with the simple fact that 40k/Heresy stuff outsells Fantasy by a margin that is so large it is not really comparable.
Yodhrin wrote: I would be extremely surprised to see them essentially do Storm of Chaos 2 - The Nagashening and then even further double-down on that concept by completely rewriting the Warhammer World as some post-apocalyptic fantasy-skirmish system.
Especially since they gave the complete Tamurkhan cycle(which would lead us down an alternate future of Karl Franz's death and near collapse of the Empire to Chaos victory, IIRC) the axe for even hinting at such a huge status change.
Er, that was never meant to be legitimate canon change? It was meant to be exactly what you said: an alternate future.
The general shuttering of Warhammer Forge and the subsequent axing of the Tamurkhan cycle has far more to do with the simple fact that 40k/Heresy stuff outsells Fantasy by a margin that is so large it is not really comparable.
Except that the axing of the rest of the Tamurkhan cycle happened before Monstrous Arcana happened, and IIRC, before the first book was actually released.
And thus, before the shuttering of Warhammer Forge. The rumors surrounding the change were what stated that the main office didn't want such an event, even if it wasn't true canon.
I don't see GW changing one of their flagship products, a game where you need to buy hordes of models, into a small scale skirmish game. GW haven't even released good Kill Team rules since 5th edition, I don't see them doing this to Fantasy as a whole. A Fantasy skirmish supplement or expansion would be viable, but changing the whole game isn't something they'd do.
Brother SRM wrote: I don't see GW changing one of their flagship products, a game where you need to buy hordes of models, into a small scale skirmish game. GW haven't even released good Kill Team rules since 5th edition, I don't see them doing this to Fantasy as a whole. A Fantasy skirmish supplement or expansion would be viable, but changing the whole game isn't something they'd do.
What if, and im just spitballing here, what if they paid a team to come up with a GOOD set of rules, and dident consider them chained down to a failing franchise anymore. If you wanted to get into fantasy today, whats your base cost. Say you want to play dwarves, what do you even need before you can play? A mini rulebook at minimum, your army book, models and dice. Dwarven warriors are now 50 bucks for 10. A stupid increase from the old what was it 12 or 15 for 35? To make one single 40 man block, you need 4 boxes, or 200 dollars. Many games out there for that price you can play at just about full level.
I can totally see them finally saying "look we need a big change, this just isn't working anymore" or they can stagnate and continue to lose market share till they are unsalavageable for anything but their IP to whore around to video game companies.
Brother SRM wrote: I don't see GW changing one of their flagship products
When it isn't selling I do. Change is inevitable and Fantasy has been declining for some time. I'm not saying it will change, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did. I can absolutely see them looking at the numbers and thinking that if they make Fantasy more like 40k that it might bring the numbers up. Odds of them making things reasonably priced is certainly less likely.
Kanluwen wrote: Wouldn't be the first time that something like that has happened then.
Imperial Armour 8 was supposed to be the first of a two book cycle and 11/12 were supposed to be multiple books as well.
True dat. I weep for what could have been before HH took all their resources and time.
You have no clue how much we missed.
Ooooh I wanna know, what did we miss?
So Volume 8 was going to be part 1 of 2. Initially it would be the whole failed decapitation strike on a nascent Ork Waagh! that we saw in 8, with 9 having been the Waagh! proper hitting a heavily fortified Imperial shrineworld. Cadians were going to be playing a big part in volume 9.
IA11 and 12 were both similar, they were going to start off as a "war on a single world" and then expand into a sectorwide conflict.
In the case of IA11, it would open with the fighting on the part of Alaitoc and the Corsairs to reawaken/recover the lost Phoenix Lord that we saw in IA11 and then it would expand to be the Dark Eldar coming in to start taking advantage of the mayhem ensuing.
IA12 was going to, again, start with a single world. It was going to be the Necrontyr awakening on their Tomb World and then the sector being revealed as a series of Tomb Worlds. Alaitoc and Illic Nightspear were to actually play a significant part in this.
After the last few years, and the most recent report, it wouldn't surprise me at all if GW were flailing around and grabbing at any ideas they can get their hands on, and I don't blame them at all. It's common knowledge that well over 50% of their sales are from 40k, so drastically changing fantasy into a skirmish makes a lot of sense, and would definitely pillage my wallet.
If Fantasy goes skirmish, it'll give me a good reason to finally sell all my Fantasy models. Regimental combat is what makes WHFB fun, though GW did kind of screw up with 8th edition IMO.
If they add a separate game again like Mordheim I'd be fine with that of course.
But that said... the "WHFB is going skirmish" is a rumour I've heard around gaming clubs and stores since forever and it's never happened.
Changing WHFB to a skirmish game will not be a move forward IMO, we don't need more skirmish games.
What they need to do is keep their current WHFB line and convert it to a skirmish game. For the big battles, they should go for a smaller scale (10-12mm) and give it a catchy name like 'Warmaster' ...
While they're at it, they can do the same thing for 40K. Such a game would be truly 'Epic' ...
WFB switching wholesale over to a skirmish game would be the final act that knocked me out of the hobby. I am barely hanging on at this point as it is. If I wanted to play a skirmish game, I'd play mordheim or, less likely, 40k.
I play warhammer to move ranked units around. Though the game is more expensive now, at least the armies are impressive to look at once completed.
GW problem with Fantasy is they do NOT cater to it. Barely gives it attention as they do 40K. That, on top of $40-$50.00 a box of 5-10 models ( in CORE for the most part) when you tend to need a sizable unit of 20+, is utterly ridiculous!
GW is in the market to sell toys oops i mean plastic miniatures, they killed of all the skirmish games because Kirby thinks skirmish games don't sell miniatures
Kilkrazy wrote: They have been growing 40K for several editions, though, in the pursuit of selling larger armies.
I dunno, if they tried this they failed after the 5th. During 5th edition, 2000pt games were very common, with movement towards 2500p, but in 6th edition it was usually 1500-1850.
Nowhere does it state that skirmish means less models. They could easily just move to individual round basing for everything to make it more cinematic and 40K like.
I predict the figure counts will be closer to 40K than Mordheim.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:Changing WHFB to a skirmish game will not be a move forward IMO
Thing is though... what exactly is the move forward for Fantasy? Answers on a postcard to Lenton, as they have no idea... (Like others, I'm reading 'skirmish' here as comparable to 40K, not 'dozen guys a side').
jojo_monkey_boy wrote:WFB switching wholesale over to a skirmish game would be the final act that knocked me out of the hobby...I play warhammer to move ranked units around.
There are other games that cater to people who want ranked units, it doesn't have to be a case of leaving the hobby.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:Changing WHFB to a skirmish game will not be a move forward IMO
Thing is though... what exactly is the move forward for Fantasy? Answers on a postcard to Lenton, as they have no idea... (Like others, I'm reading 'skirmish' here as comparable to 40K, not 'dozen guys a side').
Honestly, I think GW have exhausted their good ideas for both Fantasy and 40k. I think they should have spent more time working on their specialist games rather than beating WHFB and 40k (especially 40k) to death. I really have no idea how to move the game forward, but moving to a skirmish style comparable to 40k really sounds like a horrible move.
If GW are genuinely in their death throes, it looks like they are going to take their games with them.
Granted if they're just adding another Mordheim type game, I'm happy enough with that.
With the LoTR stuff presumably coming to an end in the near future, I wonder what the possibilities for porting the LoTR rules into the Warhammer universe are...
On another note re: the supposed new 'post apocalyptic' setting, I wonder if GW feel that the core background of Fantasy is too generic. We've seen a bit of a push from them in recent years towards a more 'protectable' IP (renaming the generic Imperial Guard for example).
Maybe they feel a proper warts 'n' all reboot of Fantasy from the ground is the way to go.
I just don't understand GW. Its not like they need NEW ideas... just a semi-sensible price-scheme, and revisiting games they own that we want.
I just spent $150-some-odd buying into Firestorm Armada this weekend. If GW had even a 25% more expensive, but in-print and supported Battlefleet: Gothic, that is where I would rather have been.
When looking into Dropzone Commander, I kept wishing Epic were still available...
And so on.
The only game of theirs which I feel has been decisively trumped for good, is Bloodbowl (with Dreadball), but even Bloodbowl still has a small, loyal, following.
GW just leaves money on the table wherever it goes, and wonders why we don't get excited for a new $165 Tyranid model.
I think if Fantasy turned into a pure skirmish game it would kill it. I think it would benefit from a dedicated skirmish ruleset however to help introduce new players into the core rules, with easy to buy battle, value sets for £40-50 a pop, but to change its identity completely would be a mistake, as would changing the background too much to accomodate said identity. I just feel it would alienate the current dwindling player base too much.
I think the main problem is the pricing of certain units. I think the bigger kits are often better value but when core units are £15-25+ for 10 models that's what really hurts player's. I preferred the size of armies in 4th and 6th Edition myself and I still prefer to play those editions when I can. GW need to realise it's their pricing and rules which are pushing away gamers into other things, as well as abandoning games where competitors can just fill the void as they have done so. There's nothing to stop them doing deals via their webstore/in stores, say 10% off for every £100 spent up to a maximum 30% off to help drive direct sales.
Still I'm interested in seeing what's around the corner for Fantasy, I just hope they don't screw it up.
warspawned wrote: I just feel it would alienate the current dwindling player base too much.
You mean those guys (and girls) who have already spent their £thousands on plastic crack, and are now jaded and (seemingly) stopping playing anyway? Yeah, I can't see why GW wouldn't want to jettison them for a market of pocket money-spending tweens eagerly buying boxes of the new Wolf Knights, Blood Knights, Dark Knights and Ultraknights.
Soggy Kittenz wrote: It's common knowledge that well over 50% of their sales are from 40k,.
So you're saying one of their two major product lines makes up around half their sales. What?!
Didnt Rick Priestley state that space marine sales alone outstrip fantasy sales. I cant say how accurate it is but I have heard that around 5% is lotr and around 80% is 40k, leaving 15% or so for fantasy.
warspawned wrote: I think the main problem is the pricing of certain units. I think the bigger kits are often better value but when core units are £15-25+ for 10 models that's what really hurts player's. I preferred the size of armies in 4th and 6th Edition myself and I still prefer to play those editions when I can.
I agree with this completely. A really good example of this issue is the new dark elf core infantry. They're (in CAD prices) two dollars less than the high elf spearmen set, yet they contain six less models (~37% less). Couple that with, as warspawned pointed out, inflation in army sizes as game editions go on and it's easy to see how GW have priced players out of the game.
It's so hard not to be cynical about how GW carries itself. I get that they're a business and they need to make sales. Yet when I read things like the Chapterhouse case court transcripts and see how they view their clientele, it's clear that they're really not trying to find a way to increase sales by getting people to genuinely love their product. They're more like con-artists exploiting a vulnerability.
With the LoTR stuff presumably coming to an end in the near future, I wonder what the possibilities for porting the LoTR rules into the Warhammer universe are...
Well, I doubt GW look at the hobbit and think, "this is going great, lets adopt it to fantasy battle!".
I don't think it's LotR as a system that's the problem, the IP just isn't as popular as it once was. They grossly overestimated how popular the Hobbit game would be, as can be pretty clearly seen by the limited edition Hobbit starter that came out over a year and a half ago that's still for sale.
Sorry, but calling it BS is not 'hate', this needs a MOUNTAIN of salt to go with it.
But it's also completely non-productive.
OT: It would be an interesting direction if they chose to go that route. I know in my local area, there's lots of love for the old Mordheim and Necromunda systems. If they brought in something like that, especially if it included decent campaign rules, it would be really interesting.
Conversely, there are people who have huge armies with literally hundreds of models that might be more upset if the system didn't include rules for significantly larger battles.
With the amount of times that GW shops are running Regiments of Renown, I would not be surprised at all to see that become the new introductory method.
They aren't that good at manufacturing, actually. Their plastic moulding technology is at least 10 years behind the rest of the model kit/toy industry. Their recent kit design is going backwards, with less poseability and fewer options included and a higher price.
Kilkrazy wrote: They aren't that good at manufacturing, actually. Their plastic moulding technology is at least 10 years behind the rest of the model kit/toy industry. Their recent kit design is going backwards, with less poseability and fewer options included and a higher price.
Compared to model kit manufacturers like Dragon and Bandai I'd agree, compared to other wargames miniatures I'd still say they are far ahead.
When I say they are pretty good at manufacturing, I'm also taking into account their equipment, methods and processes etc. How streamlined their facility is, standardization etc.
NO I AM SICK AND FRAKKING TIRED OF SKRMISH GAMES THAT INVOLVE ONLY LIKE 5 METAL UNPOSABLE MINAITURES
THE REASON WHY PEOPLE PLAY WARHAMMER FANTASY IS FOR THE LARGE REGIMENTAL BASED ARMIES NOT FOR A BUNCH OF OVERPOWERED SKIMPILY DRESSED FEMALE ELF MAGES TO BE SHOOTING SPELLS AT EACH OTHER
ATXMILEY wrote: NO I AM SICK AND FRAKKING TIRED OF SKRMISH GAMES THAT INVOLVE ONLY LIKE 5 METAL UNPOSABLE MINAITURES
THE REASON WHY PEOPLE PLAY WARHAMMER FANTASY IS FOR THE LARGE REGIMENTAL BASED ARMIES NOT FOR A BUNCH OF OVERPOWERED SKIMPILY DRESSED FEMALE ELF MAGES TO BE SHOOTING SPELLS AT EACH OTHER
ATXMILEY wrote: NO I AM SICK AND FRAKKING TIRED OF SKRMISH GAMES THAT INVOLVE ONLY LIKE 5 METAL UNPOSABLE MINAITURES
Stop playing them then? And lay off the coffee at the same time?
He might be a little crazy but I agree with the sentiment. WHFB is the only regimental based game that people play around here. There's tons of skirmish games, do we really need WHFB to be turned in to another one?
But that said, I'm pretty sure I've been hearing rumours like this since 3rd edition. I doubt anything will come of them. Ideally the best thing would be a another release of Mordheim or something similar.
.. Whilst any upset or frustration is understandable let's endeavour to make any posts a bit more worthwhile and less aggressive moving forwards please.
Posting in all caps doesn't really make ones' point more valid either.
Orock wrote: Again, all I have is what I have heard from others, and a gw store employee who said they stopped producing square bases (but not calvary bases). Rumor is that 9th was supposed to be done this year, but after looking at market loss to other games like warmahordes the decision was made to turn it into a more skirmish game, with far fewer models, and basic army boxes to be released ala old school mordheim. Rules will be included to play with your whole collection still, but they are more for big campaigns or apocalypse style battles like in 40k. They are shooting for the equivalent of 500 point games with individual models having more specialized rules and abilities, also like warmahordes. Now normally I don't spout this kind of stuff, since I have no concrete proof and it seems so far away from what gw would do. But I began hearing this about 3 months ago, and its been talked about a lot lately. It would make sense why they pushed back bertonia so long. My question is have you heard anything about this kind of change at all?
FOR THOSE WHO JUST WANT TO CHIME IN "THATS BS, WILL NEVER HAPPEN" I just want to start a thread to consolidate some of these rumors going around. Please don't just chime in with hate or to say how stupid the rumor is.
This is BS. It's already happened.
We had an ongoing game of Mordhiem/ Empire in Flames. The game is a great way to build an army and play with different squads, as you add onto the larger group. Then you use Mighty Empires to build up the map based campaign system. Armys were used in the old 3d edition base list, with a champion, and the ranked regiment.
Unfortunately its around 15 years too late, but damn was that a great game.
Of course if they could go back to that way, I'd pick up a couple of those boxed sets, and go to town on them again. Might even be worth a go, now that I'm thinking back on it.
Those were pretty fun times.
If they did something like that, I might even think about playing fantasy again, that Idea is really a cool one, when you play a game. It makes things like taking your champion, and a cou8ple of henchmen into a game of Warhammer Quest for a new sword, or magic treasures worth playing, just so you can add onto your army. Imagine a chaos player, coming across a necromancer with a few ranks of Undead, adding him as a merc faction to his army, and then coming across a band of beastmen, and adding them as part of the whole?
It would be like playing Lost and The Damned/ Slaves to Darkness all over again. Only thing missing would be the D100 tables.
At the point fantasy is now? they can't do anything that could screw it up any worse then it is at this point. Only place to go is up or out.
So I haven't seen the actual rumors posted, here they are:
Arthurius11
Fantasy Rumors - Aug 2014
Have some more "rumours" in regard to the end times campaign coming, as usual take them as you will.
Along with Nagash and the vampire releases I mentioned earlier there will also be new release models for tomb kings, skaven, chaos and dark elves.
Thanquol and bone ripper will be getting there own new models along with a new plastic vermin lord. There will also be new fantasy terrain.
That is all I know atm.
There will be a new Nagash model.
Darnok:
Fantasy Rumors - Aug 2014
a "big thing" for WHF at the end of August - sadly no details, but the notion of "the shape of things to come!" ... confirmed as being the return of Nagash
Nurgle gets some love in October: a book, 3 plastic kits and a clampack - again, sadly no details about this
I'd like to echo other comments upthread: If WFB became a skirmish game, then I'd stop playing it. I like having lots of dudes on the table. It looks great, and it is a visual that I can't get elsewhere. I tried playing Bushido, a skirmish game, but I just hated the fact that we had a table devoid of guys. I wanted more! So I came back to Fantasy.
It is entirely possible that a skirmish version would appeal to lots of guys, and make them buy into it. But I am fairly sure that it would instantly destroy the WFB fanbase as it currently stands. Even a comparison to 40k's Apocalypse isn't valid, as that doesn't change the type of game that it is.
I wonder sometimes why you don't get other mass battle games in the Fantasy/Sci Fi hobby, and I suspect that the answer is to do with the manufacturing effort behind providing that many sculpts and models. But you certainly don't get the visual elements of WFB elsewhere, unless you move to Fields of Glory, DBA and other historical rulesets. And the guys who play those can be gnarly.
Charles Rampant wrote: I'd like to echo other comments upthread: If WFB became a skirmish game, then I'd stop playing it. I like having lots of dudes on the table. It looks great, and it is a visual that I can't get elsewhere. I tried playing Bushido, a skirmish game, but I just hated the fact that we had a table devoid of guys. I wanted more! So I came back to Fantasy.
It's more likely GW would release a new "type" of WFB game that is compatible with their current game than to discontinue their entire game for something else.
The example I mentioned earlier about a smaller, entry-level skirmish game to draw new players into the hobby would be more plausible. Then those players could expand to the "regular" WFB game if they wanted to.
Charles Rampant wrote: I wonder sometimes why you don't get other mass battle games in the Fantasy/Sci Fi hobby, and I suspect that the answer is to do with the manufacturing effort behind providing that many sculpts and models.
Manufacturing a large number of models really isn't that difficult. Most companies build their catalog over a long period of time, not all at once. It could also have to do with inflation and the current economy.
Maybe companies aren't making such large-scale games from the start because they see players on forums complaining about the high entry cost for those games, so they choose to make something smaller. Then maybe later on they can expand the game (like PP did).
Charles Rampant wrote: I'd like to echo other comments upthread: If WFB became a skirmish game, then I'd stop playing it. I like having lots of dudes on the table. It looks great, and it is a visual that I can't get elsewhere. I tried playing Bushido, a skirmish game, but I just hated the fact that we had a table devoid of guys. I wanted more! So I came back to Fantasy.
It is entirely possible that a skirmish version would appeal to lots of guys, and make them buy into it. But I am fairly sure that it would instantly destroy the WFB fanbase as it currently stands. Even a comparison to 40k's Apocalypse isn't valid, as that doesn't change the type of game that it is.
I wonder sometimes why you don't get other mass battle games in the Fantasy/Sci Fi hobby, and I suspect that the answer is to do with the manufacturing effort behind providing that many sculpts and models. But you certainly don't get the visual elements of WFB elsewhere, unless you move to Fields of Glory, DBA and other historical rulesets. And the guys who play those can be gnarly.
Just curious, do you like the fact that year after year there are less fantasy players, and nobody to replenish the ranks, not because of poor gameplay, but because of outright cost alone? If you are living in an area with a thriving fantasy community, you had better not move, because I can tell you from experience you are not the norm anymore. I don't think I have seen a new fantasy player here in 3+ years. Boxes of product get sold sometimes, but mostly for 40k conversions, or just owning awesome to look at models.
kronk wrote: Kill team fantasy would be interesting to me. As is, I am not interested in WH Fantasy.
It's less "Kill Team Fantasy" and more "Mordheim Unbound"...
Search around for "Regiments of Renown" rules. They should still be floating in the aether.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: So I haven't seen the actual rumors posted, here they are:
Arthurius11
Fantasy Rumors - Aug 2014
Have some more "rumours" in regard to the end times campaign coming, as usual take them as you will.
Along with Nagash and the vampire releases I mentioned earlier there will also be new release models for tomb kings, skaven, chaos and dark elves.
Thanquol and bone ripper will be getting there own new models along with a new plastic vermin lord. There will also be new fantasy terrain.
That is all I know atm.
There will be a new Nagash model.
Darnok:
Fantasy Rumors - Aug 2014
a "big thing" for WHF at the end of August - sadly no details, but the notion of "the shape of things to come!" ... confirmed as being the return of Nagash
Nurgle gets some love in October: a book, 3 plastic kits and a clampack - again, sadly no details about this
For the love of God, release a bloody Vampire Count on foot wearing plate armor.
ALL I ASK! I need one to match my Vampire Count on Zombie Dragon.
Charles Rampant wrote: I'd like to echo other comments upthread: If WFB became a skirmish game, then I'd stop playing it. I like having lots of dudes on the table. It looks great, and it is a visual that I can't get elsewhere. I tried playing Bushido, a skirmish game, but I just hated the fact that we had a table devoid of guys. I wanted more! So I came back to Fantasy.
Nothing prevents you of continue playing the last version of the game. Although as it was said before it wouldn't make any sense for GW to completely abandon WFB but rather to introduce a second, smaller in size game next to it. That way it can at the same time introduce new players to the "big" game and keep the old players, who could also use their minis on a new setting.
For that reason I don't see it reasonable for GW to switch the Fantasy bases from square to round. Although round bases are more common fr skirmish games, several of them were using square bases such old Confrontation, Reaper's Warlord (even if it is not supported very much) and Freebooter's Fate. Probably there are more that I don't recall at the moment.
Charles Rampant wrote: I'd like to echo other comments upthread: If WFB became a skirmish game, then I'd stop playing it. I like having lots of dudes on the table. It looks great, and it is a visual that I can't get elsewhere. I tried playing Bushido, a skirmish game, but I just hated the fact that we had a table devoid of guys. I wanted more! So I came back to Fantasy.
It is entirely possible that a skirmish version would appeal to lots of guys, and make them buy into it. But I am fairly sure that it would instantly destroy the WFB fanbase as it currently stands. Even a comparison to 40k's Apocalypse isn't valid, as that doesn't change the type of game that it is.
I wonder sometimes why you don't get other mass battle games in the Fantasy/Sci Fi hobby, and I suspect that the answer is to do with the manufacturing effort behind providing that many sculpts and models. But you certainly don't get the visual elements of WFB elsewhere, unless you move to Fields of Glory, DBA and other historical rulesets. And the guys who play those can be gnarly.
Just curious, do you like the fact that year after year there are less fantasy players, and nobody to replenish the ranks, not because of poor gameplay, but because of outright cost alone? If you are living in an area with a thriving fantasy community, you had better not move, because I can tell you from experience you are not the norm anymore. I don't think I have seen a new fantasy player here in 3+ years. Boxes of product get sold sometimes, but mostly for 40k conversions, or just owning awesome to look at models.
I like that it has more players than any other game except Warmahordes, 40k or Xwing I guess? The tournament scene around here is bustling and growing, so I am happy.
A apologize for my overreacting, I was half asleep and the idea of my army which I put a lot of work and money into now being invalidated for the sake of satisfying a small niche just racked my nerves
Orock wrote:They are shooting for the equivalent of 500 point games with individual models having more specialized rules and abilities, also like warmahordes.
Ach. I'd rather they kept the same level of specialised rules and abilities, and toned that down for the 'big' game, because...
Mysterious Pants wrote:Extremely unlikely. Making fantasy skirmish-based would take quite a bit of effort, and totally change the way it plays. I mean, the whole point of Fantasy is the way the unit blocks line up and how it isn't a skirmish game. Random suspicions have no particular validity in my book.
WHFBis a skirmish game. It might have a couple of unit movement tweaks and a lot more models, but it's still essentially the same game since at least third edition. Few other mass battle wargames, except some of those derived from Warhammer, focus so much on individual models and troops for so many stats and mechanics; and I don't know if any of those come anywhere near a 40-50+ unit 'norm'. I remember the skirmish rules in the back of the 6th ed book too: same stats, same weapon rules and abilities, slight movement tweaks. (360 vision, obviously, climbing and jumping IIRC) Pretty much like original Mordheim, but with your regular Warhammer collection. I don't think it'd be such an unthinkable leap as you imagine.
I've heard the rumour before, and if it's true (I'll wait 'til I see it on the shelves) I think they've got it backwards. Like I say, adapt the current rules for 'warband' level games, where the number of minis in a game warrants that kind of micromanaging crunch and care. Make the big game more abstract, streamlined and tactical - more in line with other, popular mass battle rules - so the level of focus is on units, rather than the attacks and weapons your champion has, and how much a shield costs times X number of soldiers, and whether you have four or five guys in the back rank. GW have already got a decent example in their back catalogue that they could take cues from, and which Rick Priestly had great success with when he took it to Warlord and tweaked it for three historicals games.
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Ghaz wrote: What they need to do is keep their current WHFB line and convert it to a skirmish game. For the big battles, they should go for a smaller scale (10-12mm) and give it a catchy name like 'Warmaster' ...
While they're at it, they can do the same thing for 40K. Such a game would be truly 'Epic' ...
Charles Rampant wrote: I'd like to echo other comments upthread: If WFB became a skirmish game, then I'd stop playing it. I like having lots of dudes on the table. It looks great, and it is a visual that I can't get elsewhere. I tried playing Bushido, a skirmish game, but I just hated the fact that we had a table devoid of guys. I wanted more! So I came back to Fantasy.
It is entirely possible that a skirmish version would appeal to lots of guys, and make them buy into it. But I am fairly sure that it would instantly destroy the WFB fanbase as it currently stands. Even a comparison to 40k's Apocalypse isn't valid, as that doesn't change the type of game that it is.
I wonder sometimes why you don't get other mass battle games in the Fantasy/Sci Fi hobby, and I suspect that the answer is to do with the manufacturing effort behind providing that many sculpts and models. But you certainly don't get the visual elements of WFB elsewhere, unless you move to Fields of Glory, DBA and other historical rulesets. And the guys who play those can be gnarly.
Just curious, do you like the fact that year after year there are less fantasy players, and nobody to replenish the ranks, not because of poor gameplay, but because of outright cost alone? If you are living in an area with a thriving fantasy community, you had better not move, because I can tell you from experience you are not the norm anymore. I don't think I have seen a new fantasy player here in 3+ years. Boxes of product get sold sometimes, but mostly for 40k conversions, or just owning awesome to look at models.
I like that it has more players than any other game except Warmahordes, 40k or Xwing I guess? The tournament scene around here is bustling and growing, so I am happy.
See, that explains it. Your in the minority, and by minority, I mean like 1% of local areas who not only have some die hard fans still playing,but actually growing. The rest of the world has either been priced out, moved on, or frustrated that people are priced out and moved on with nobody to play against, so had moved on selected for them.
Platuan4th wrote: Not unless they've changed their rules so that models are individual models and not just counters to determine the starting amount.
One: they're counters already, and two: whaddya want individual wee guys to fuss over in a 2,000-3,000pts game fer? Loads of other rulesets don't bother with that and get on fine.
I wonder sometimes why you don't get other mass battle games in the Fantasy/Sci Fi hobby, and I suspect that the answer is to do with the manufacturing effort behind providing that many sculpts and models.
King of War, Hordes of the Things, Mayhem, Fantasy Warriors, Realm - Fantasy Warfare, Armies of Arcana, Fantasy Rules!, Reaper Warlord, God of Battles, Impetus Fantasticus...
Not all have a range of minis to sell, but that mostly means that they're not developed to try to sell a range of minis.
Kilkrazy wrote: They aren't that good at manufacturing, actually. Their plastic moulding technology is at least 10 years behind the rest of the model kit/toy industry. Their recent kit design is going backwards, with less poseability and fewer options included and a higher price.
Compared to model kit manufacturers like Dragon and Bandai I'd agree, compared to other wargames miniatures I'd still say they are far ahead.
Kilkrazy wrote: They aren't that good at manufacturing, actually. Their plastic moulding technology is at least 10 years behind the rest of the model kit/toy industry. Their recent kit design is going backwards, with less poseability and fewer options included and a higher price.
Compared to model kit manufacturers like Dragon and Bandai I'd agree, compared to other wargames miniatures I'd still say they are far ahead.
Snark aside, I agree with mechhorizon, compared to some of the more exotic and prolific toy manufacturers Gee Dub, for all of their flaws are at the top end of the manufacturing scale when it comes to toy soldiers as playing pieces.
Wyrd and Kingdom Death have some phenomenal looking stuff in the pipeline too so it's not as though it's all set in stone.
GW would be smart to offer 'gateway' skirmish scaled games, but their business model will always 'demand' and favor larger army sized games as the 'end goal' for new and existing customers.
Having said that, I'd love skirmish sized 40K and WFB games, and would buy quite a few extra factions worth, beyond what I currently own.
And I might be then tempted to expand on these new acquisitions, building them into 'full armies' too!
You know, IF GW was smart enough to do something like this.
BUT, they might have to actually ask their target audience about this, so...
Not big on youtube.. is this an official GW source.. and does it play at all towards this Nagash stuff we are hearing about.. or is an Undead army incoming on the sly?
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: Not big on youtube.. is this an official GW source.. and does it play at all towards this Nagash stuff we are hearing about.. or is an Undead army incoming on the sly?
Yep, looks legit to me. That's the usual account they post their stuff from, comments blocked an' all!