It occurred to me that 40K will soon be in a place I don't believe it has been in a long time. With only Dark Eldar, Necrons and Blood Angels remaining to be updated to 6/7th Edition rules one could look at the game and say it's done. All army codexies will now be current to the current rule book. As an aside, I also believe that the long rumored release of models and codex for Sisters of Battle will be the final release for this edition of 40K.

So with 40K as a currently updated and complete game what will be next? With no new codexies needed and the rules set for at least the next two years what will GW do? They are after all a company that needs to generate sales of their products, and for a company that has been around as long as they have it is easier to generate new sales by creating new product for existing customers to buy, as opposed to generating new customers to buy existing products.

So what does GW have up their sleeves for us? New model ranges, new armies, maybe a whole optional way to play the game that suddenly makes Unbound Armies attractive to most players? Or do they again hit the reset button and start all over? I'd like to hear you thoughts and ideas as to were you believe GW plans on taking 40K. I know this is the internet and everybody loves hyperbole, hate and GW bashing in general but if possible I'd like this conversation to about were the game might be going as opposed to another GW hate fest.

Suplements and Dataslates. You can introduce new models with dataslates providing the appropriate rules.

Besides that, I'm sure they will come up with new "stuff everyone has to have", the likes of Lords of War, using power creep to sell models.

A completely new game would be a good move IMO.

A new faction for 40K is more likely, though.

I don't know how large the take-up would be if it isn't a very new and interesting design. I mean there are already blue, green, red, grey, black, silver and chaos Space Marines so I can't see that yellow or purple Space Marines would have anything new to attract players.

What about BROWN space marines though?

Some might say that Nurgle Marines are brown.

We were talking about this at the weekend. There's an internal reason for this quick release scale. It's clear they want everything to be done and on a level to make way for...whatever their new strategy is.

What next? A new race wouldn't be a surprise; especially considering the discussed freedom the (model) design team has been given. And it's been a while.

It could also mean that 8th edition would have greater rule changes once it drops. Either that or we're in for a bi-annual updated rule book.

In the interim, plenty of releases with supplements (dataslates and formations). Maybe an annual ebook that collates them all. They don't want to spend four years on a single army. They're really pushing the concept that models are first (rules second). New model kits (or repackaged) dropping in weekly schedules wouldn't be far-fetched.

If Sisters happen it'll be a plastic box, maybe a supplement and/or dataslate (that psychic character, for example). It won't be a major release.

Edit: Or, they'll do a versus boxset for every race as a way of adding new miniatures. This also encourages unbound if you end up with legal 500 point lots of different armies. So maybe we'll only get plastic sisters once the SOB vs Eldar campaign box happens.

Actually bothering to hear their gaming community and balancing the game would be a good move.

They've shot themselves in the foot releasing Imperial Knights, AM, MT, Orks, SWs, and GKs codicies so close together. 6 in about 4 months. If they had taken their time they could have made IKs and MTs into actual armies (because lets face it - they aren't atm) and padded put GKs somewhat. AM and Orks they did a decent job on (imo) and I don't know about SWs because I don't own the dex, haven't seen it, and don't want to get into trouble by going on any post-release thread and asking a question which has a 50% chance of being answered and a 50% chance of being told to 'go buy the dex yourself you intellectual property thief, this is only for people who can afford to buy more than one dex a month', or something along those lines.

It's something I've brought up a few times in the "roll marine codices in to one" thread.

We are approaching an interesting situation, with their current release rate when they get done with the existing codices we'll have all releases no more than about 2.5 years old. I assume they're going to go in to supplements more.

I would have liked them to focus on creating new games, but if they were going to do that I'd guess they would have done it before they exhausted 40k, not after, otherwise it'd be a huge gamble.

 Tyran wrote:
Actually bothering to hear their gaming community and balancing the game would be a good move.

This would definitely be the best move! Not going to happen mind, since they litrally said so themselves (wellthe CEO did anyhow)

Poly Ranger wrote:
They've shot themselves in the foot releasing Imperial Knights, AM, MT, Orks, SWs, and GKs codicies so close together. 6 in about 4 months.

It's clear, planned move. Perhaps they had all these stacked up and ready to go for a while. Perhaps they only made smaller changes for 7th as they were also updating a list of codexes at the same time (easier to play test armies if you're doing several new ones together). I'm glad they did it - want to see what's next once they're finished with this update cycle.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
It's something
I would have liked them to focus on creating new games, but if they were going to do that I'd guess they would have done it before they exhausted 40k, not after, otherwise it'd be a huge gamble.

They answered that at the Open Day - no new games. No 41k either. No specialist games.

The sensible thing to me would be releasing more codex supplements. There were rumours of stuff like White Scars, Speed Freaks, specific Chaos Legions and such that didn't originally pan out, but which to me made a lot of sense. Some of the ones that did come out were pretty... odd choices (Black Legion and Ghazghkull) in that you'd expect those armies to be very close to what was already in the Codex. Releasing supplements that introduced more deviating lists makes more sense to me. It would also be a roundabout way to address balance issues and breathe new life (and new sales) into older releases.

And of course they could just finally get around to Sisters of Battle.

tgjensen wrote:
The sensible thing to me would be releasing more codex supplements. There were rumours of stuff like White Scars, Speed Freaks, specific Chaos Legions and such that didn't originally pan out..

Someone asked about the Chaos Legions at the Open Day. My memory of that specific question is a little hazy. They said they picked the two (?) current ones as they were different enough to work. They would like to go and do others as well. I think there's certainly a possibility of it.

The new army question was a resounding 'yes'. This could be a supplement that allies with plenty of other armies. Like Assassins, but maybe Space Lamas or some walking amphibian with str 5 guns knocking about willy-nilly.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Actually bothering to hear their gaming community and balancing the game would be a good move.

This would definitely be the best move! Not going to happen mind, since they litrally said so themselves (wellthe CEO did anyhow)

Wasn't it the same CEO that resigned a month ago?

From my understanding, the "heavy" supplements will be what's next. the things not quite enough to be a codex, but too much to be done properly as a regular supplement within the rushed releases we currently have and the limited changes supplements bring.

Things like god-legions, who are vastly different from your regular CSM line, yet share way too much to be a codex. (for example, 1ksons will pretty much keep all mechanical and demonic units as-is, but will remove noise,plague and beserkers, ptobably cultists and basic marines too, and will require more focus on sorcerers and things like rubric termies, etc...)

In my opinion it falls into the following order in terms of likeliness:

1. Supplements and Dataslates with new model releases
2. Campaigns and Boxsets like Sanctus Reach/Stormclaw.
3. A new Army
4. A new game

I think the top two are pretty much guaranteed. The Stormclaw boxset was a sellout (Yes it was limited release but it was easy money for little work from a GW perspective) and the dataslates/supplements are an easy and quick way to get new models into the game.

Out of all of it though, a new army gets me the most excited so knowing my luck it won’t happen!

ShaneTB wrote:
We were talking about this at the weekend. There's an internal reason for this quick release scale. It's clear they want everything to be done and on a level to make way for...whatever their new strategy is.

I agree 100%. We don't know their reason for the drive to get everything up to date, but there is a reason and a plan.

If Sisters happen it'll be a plastic box, maybe a supplement and/or dataslate (that psychic character, for example). It won't be a major release.

Edit: Or, they'll do a versus boxset for every race as a way of adding new miniatures. This also encourages unbound if you end up with legal 500 point lots of different armies. So maybe we'll only get plastic sisters once the SOB vs Eldar campaign box happens.

I agree about the SoB. I think the release will be two plastic kits, one that let you make Seraphim, Celestians and basic Battle Sisters. The second will be a Command box. They will most likely loose Repentia and if the Penitent Engine stays it will not get a hew model. I think most of the non Sister characters and models (like priests and Uriah Jacobus) disappearing. They will also get either a specific new vehicle with enough options that it lets you up-grade other vehicles such as Rhinos, Razorbacks, Chimeras and Landraiders to Sister themed vehicles, or just a vehicle up-grade sprue that does the same to current vehicles.

In my opinion Games Workshop now sees the entire IoM as one big army. The game has been redesigned so that if your Imperiam army has a weakness (say Grey Knights, long range anti-armour) you fix this by allying in units from other IoM armies. The new Sisters release (if there is one) will have more content than say the Militarum Tempestus, but less than the current Sisters army.

I think they will be releasing the 9th edition of WHFB and focusing on Fantasy a little bit more. They have some rumors and a teaser video for a new release there.

So if everything is caught up on 40k side, they will begin the fantasy transition. Also, fantasy has ALOT of old metal models that they could begin catching up on. But, so do SoB.

Poly Ranger wrote:
They've shot themselves in the foot releasing Imperial Knights, AM, MT, Orks, SWs, and GKs codicies so close together. 6 in about 4 months. If they had taken their time they could have made IKs and MTs into actual armies (because lets face it - they aren't atm) and padded put GKs somewhat.

You're right, and you're wrong. IK and MT are most certainly not complete armies, yet GW released them so you could play them as such if you wanted to. I think the real intent is to divide the IoM up into as many pieces as possible and let the player pick what pieces he wants to use. What Games Workshop has done makes sense if looked at in this fashion. Codex Space Marines, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Sisters, Storm Troopers, Imperial Knights, Inquisition and Assassins are all one army, the Imperiam of Man. What you then do is pick what pieces of this army you want to build into your army.

In Faeit I've read GW will focus more in Fantasy next year - so they want to launch everything major for 40k before that.

I'd like to see them getting the feedback of 6th and 7th, change a lot of stuff and launch 8th in 3-4 years - alongside codexes each 2 months. This edition should be much more stable and endure more than 5 years...

...then I woke up and remembered how GW works.
:(

What about Native American Space Marines? Oh, wait, no, they have brown skin. (Salamander's black skin doesn't count, because its a genetic mutation and not actually a minority.)

How about space skaven? That's imaginative.

I know. Death Beasts from planet Mortis-080. They have death talons and their Death Tyrants herd them into battle

 Icculus wrote:
I think they will be releasing the 9th edition of WHFB and focusing on Fantasy a little bit more. They have some rumors and a teaser video for a new release there.

So if everything is caught up on 40k side, they will begin the fantasy transition. Also, fantasy has ALOT of old metal models that they could begin catching up on. But, so do SoB.

WHFB is due for a new version, but I'm not sure they're going to focus on it as hard as they've focused on 40k as it doesn't seem to make them as much money and given they've already had 1 down annual report I bet they're worried about having another one that's even further down.

Another thing to consider. When White Dwarf was turned into a weekly magazine a lot of people complained that they did not have the content to publish weekly. But it is this weekly publishing schedule that has allowed them to so rapidly update 40K. They can now release in one month what would have taken three to four months last year.

Hopefully they do Adeptus Mechanicus.

The Traitor Legions and Guard regiments should keep them busy for the next few years. Maybe a few more marine 'dexes and some combined boxes/army sets.

There's plenty of scope for expansion even without new races.

Hunam0001 wrote:
Hopefully they do Adeptus Mechanicus.

That would certainly be easy to do, a new Codex, a few new models and new rules for the current Forgeworld models. This would result in a lot of new sales.

To the OP: that's actually a fair question. When they're all caught up, then what?

Black Templar supplement.

Death Guard supplement.

Bad Moons supplement.

Then, I dunno.

ShaneTB wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
They've shot themselves in the foot releasing Imperial Knights, AM, MT, Orks, SWs, and GKs codicies so close together. 6 in about 4 months.

It's clear, planned move. Perhaps they had all these stacked up and ready to go for a while. Perhaps they only made smaller changes for 7th as they were also updating a list of codexes at the same time (easier to play test armies if you're doing several new ones together). I'm glad they did it - want to see what's next once they're finished with this update cycle.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
It's something
I would have liked them to focus on creating new games, but if they were going to do that I'd guess they would have done it before they exhausted 40k, not after, otherwise it'd be a huge gamble.

They answered that at the Open Day - no new games. No 41k either. No specialist games.

Totally agree it was planned. I also agree that it is a good thing for the player base. We already know they do little if any playtesting, through quotes of their own employees and rules writers.

Think about it business wise though. I for one bought the IK WD and AM dex when they were released. I wanted a knight for a while after that and also wanted a small allied guard force with Pask. But before I had time to save up for either (eg: next pay packet), which I couldn't do with my current pay packet as I'd bought the dex (and some VWBs), they released the ork dex, which I then bought, and forgot all about guard. But before I could save and get any orks, they then released 7th ed, so I went and bought Dark Vengence for the rule set and models (whilst my GF got me a knight for my Bday). Now having got the 7th ed ruleset, there is now one month where I can't buy anything as I am moving house. So no GK dex, no SW dex, but this also now pushes orks further from my mind. Soon there will be a BA update (my main army), and a necron update (my 2nd army) and probably after that a CSM update (my 3rd army). At which point I will have lost any interest in AM or Orks and definitely have no interest in GK or SW.

Whereas if they had left it 2 1/2 months or so between releases (alternate a fantasy release with a 40k release), people would have had time to start collecting a small force or even just a few units from each dex. And then numerous players interst would have been split between various armies. As it is, im probably going to buy 1 or 2 new units max + dex for each my current armies. Then sit back with what I have. If they'd been just a little more patient in the short run they would have got a whole 3000+ guard or ork army out of me in the long run. Whilst this doesn't apply to all players it will definitely apply to enough to make a difference on revenue.

It'll never happen but I'd love to see a new Man O War game. Loved that game back in the day.

Are we 100% certain that they won't just update all of the 6th edition codexes for 7th.

I'd like to see Inquisition and SoB updated to full hardback codexes but that is unlikely. I would expect more supplements for the biggest selling armies, a few new kits backed with supplements, a dataslate or two for poorly selling individual kits and at least one new big independant kit like the Knight.

I'd love to see Sanctum Reach expanded into an actual campaign instead of a backdrop for the current releases. But that said, more box sets similar to Stormclaw I think would be well received especially for new players.

Another thing people don't seem to realize. Is that while they've been shoveling HEAPS of 40k material out there, they've actually been pretty slow at releasing for Fantasy while this has been going on. So once this is done, they could give WHFB the same treatment with a new rules edition.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
They've shot themselves in the foot releasing Imperial Knights, AM, MT, Orks, SWs, and GKs codicies so close together. 6 in about 4 months. If they had taken their time they could have made IKs and MTs into actual armies (because lets face it - they aren't atm) and padded put GKs somewhat.

You're right, and you're wrong. IK and MT are most certainly not complete armies, yet GW released them so you could play them as such if you wanted to. I think the real intent is to divide the IoM up into as many pieces as possible and let the player pick what pieces he wants to use. What Games Workshop has done makes sense if looked at in this fashion. Codex Space Marines, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Sisters, Storm Troopers, Imperial Knights, Inquisition and Assassins are all one army, the Imperiam of Man. What you then do is pick what pieces of this army you want to build into your army.

Totally agree the IoM is indeed really one army of many different factions. They could have still been patient and released more for IK and MT. Maybe take some cybernetica units from 30k for IK and add in things such as drop pods, spec weapons teams, airstrike controllers, drones, exo-suits etc for MT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Actually bothering to hear their gaming community and balancing the game would be a good move.

This would definitely be the best move! Not going to happen mind, since they litrally said so themselves (wellthe CEO did anyhow)

Wasn't it the same CEO that resigned a month ago?

Thought he was stepping down in january?

Poly Ranger wrote:


Whereas if they had left it 2 1/2 months or so between releases (alternate a fantasy release with a 40k release), people would have had time to start collecting a small force or even just a few units from each dex. And then numerous players interst would have been split between various armies. As it is, im probably going to buy 1 or 2 new units max + dex for each my current armies. Then sit back with what I have. If they'd been just a little more patient in the short run they would have got a whole 3000+ guard or ork army out of me in the long run. Whilst this doesn't apply to all players it will definitely apply to enough to make a difference on revenue.

Poly,
Because it doesn't matter to GW how you buy the product, only that you do, and I'm not saying that as a bad thing, GW is in the business to make money. If they are smart they cater to all customers. Customers like you who get excited about new things and buy a small amount of each new offering, and customers like me, who only buy things that fit the army or armies they play. If customer A buys a new codex and 3,000 points of Orks GW is happy. If customer B buys three codexies and 500 points of three different armies GW is happy. If anything customer B (you) is better for GW because you provide a steady stream of income wile customer A (me) may spend a lot at first, they get much less later. Still, to be successful both types of customers are needed.

Maybe when they catch up re-releasing all of the old codexes, they could take a few minutes to update the FAQ's. For me, releasing unbalanced, bad or confusing rules is not the greatest sin of GW. It is a refusal to fix or clarify those rules. FAQ's take so little time. The fact that GW can't be bothered to do them is a customer relations failure that is absolutely insane. Good quality FAQ's that actually answer real player questions would do so much to improve their respect among gamers and customers.

It is like going to a restaurant where they serve you food, but don't offer utensils to eat it with. When you complain, they say, "We're not an eating company, we are a food company", and then shut down their facebook page.

But what im saying is I would have bought what both A and B bought if they'd given me time. However, my interest in orks and AM will have waned by the time I update my main 3 and they will therefore only get the income of a B customer from me rather than an A+B customer.

I agree with the people who say the Codexes will get their update but GW will switch to the new "dataslate" format.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

ShaneTB wrote:
We were talking about this at the weekend. There's an internal reason for this quick release scale. It's clear they want everything to be done and on a level to make way for...whatever their new strategy is.

I agree 100%. We don't know their reason for the drive to get everything up to date, but there is a reason and a plan.

The reason for the release schedule is to drive sales. New edition, new books, new models. Its not part of some big plan to surprise us with something great. Its an attempt to boost their plummeting sales. Why do you think kits from the same codex are released over a 2-3 week period? Because its a lot easier to get people to spend $100 a week for three weeks in a row, than it is to get them to spend $300 in one purchase.

Dont kid yourselves, the release schedule is a marketing strategy, nothing more. The fact that it will result in all armies being up to date is inconsequential to GW management.

I'm surprised no one's said the obvious.

They'll update the 6th edition codices to 7th edition. They've shown with the GK codex they don't care anymore if the releases have any new models.

Add some detachments, formations, change some numbers, throw in some cards and a supplement. There we go, new release.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
All army codexies will now be current to the current rule book. As an aside, I also believe that the long rumored release of models and codex for Sisters of Battle.

I wouldn't bet on it. Last time there was just one codex book outstanding it was Squats, and we all know what happened to them.

Although on that note, that was also when GW introduced new armies namely Sisters, and Necrons. So perhaps they will do the same again and start expanding other parts of the background. People have been yammering on about an Ad Mec force for a while, and of course they could always "Bring back Squats!".

Dreadfleet 2: This time you will buy it.

Or 40k 8th edition.

They'll just start rolling them over again to the new photos and formations format.

 Thairne wrote:
Suplements and Dataslates. You can introduce new models with dataslates providing the appropriate rules.

Besides that, I'm sure they will come up with new "stuff everyone has to have", the likes of Lords of War, using power creep to sell models.

Well, I hope they bring back Fantasy: new ruleset and new release of each faction.

As desperate as they are for more material, they probably still won't give us chaos legions or plastic SOB.

 MWHistorian wrote:
As desperate as they are for more material, they probably still won't give us chaos legions or plastic SOB.

After all codex updates (GK; Necrons, BA, DE), I guess we'll see dataslates and supplements on a random basis.

After 40k, we start seeing fantasy on the same fast track release. 40k news dies down to maybe a supplement or dataslate or formation. When all fantasy is done, guess what? 8th edition and we get to play this all over again!

sand.zzz wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

ShaneTB wrote:
We were talking about this at the weekend. There's an internal reason for this quick release scale. It's clear they want everything to be done and on a level to make way for...whatever their new strategy is.

I agree 100%. We don't know their reason for the drive to get everything up to date, but there is a reason and a plan.

The reason for the release schedule is to drive sales. New edition, new books, new models. Its not part of some big plan to surprise us with something great. Its an attempt to boost their plummeting sales. Why do you think kits from the same codex are released over a 2-3 week period? Because its a lot easier to get people to spend $100 a week for three weeks in a row, than it is to get them to spend $300 in one purchase.

Dont kid yourselves, the release schedule is a marketing strategy, nothing more. The fact that it will result in all armies being up to date is inconsequential to GW management.

If their sole motivation is to drive sales then why no new Grey Knights models? GKs are lacking in fast attack. Fluff or not they would have sold a ton of Grey Knights on bikes with Nemesis Lances. Three Grey Knights on bikes for $60 - $75? People would have bitched about the price and bought every one GW could crank out. Grey Knights lack long range anti tank. Why no new Dreadnaught with dual twin-linked lascannons and a missle pod, again they would have sold a lot of them.

The fact that no models were released when they could have sold a lot of them weakens your argument. As far as models go, I predict that Necrons, also an army with a very current model range, will get no more than two new units, but I'd bet it's only one new model. Dark Eldar are the same, two, maybe three new models at best. I think Blood Angels stand to get the most in terms of new models, along the lines of the Dark Angels release. New Death Company Terminators, new fliers, maybe a new Predator kit.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

ShaneTB wrote:
We were talking about this at the weekend. There's an internal reason for this quick release scale. It's clear they want everything to be done and on a level to make way for...whatever their new strategy is.

I agree 100%. We don't know their reason for the drive to get everything up to date, but there is a reason and a plan.

The reason for the release schedule is to drive sales. New edition, new books, new models. Its not part of some big plan to surprise us with something great. Its an attempt to boost their plummeting sales. Why do you think kits from the same codex are released over a 2-3 week period? Because its a lot easier to get people to spend $100 a week for three weeks in a row, than it is to get them to spend $300 in one purchase.

Dont kid yourselves, the release schedule is a marketing strategy, nothing more. The fact that it will result in all armies being up to date is inconsequential to GW management.

If their sole motivation is to drive sales than why no new Grey Knights models? GKs are lacking in fast attack. Fluff or not they would have sold a ton of Grey Knights on bikes with Nemesis Lances. Three Grey Knights on bikes for $60 - $75? People would have bitched about the price and bought every one GW could crank out. Grey Knights lack long range anti tank. Why no new Dreadnaught with dual twin-linked lascannons and a missle pod, again they would have sold a lot of them.

The fact that no models were released when they could have sold a lot of them weakens your argument. As far as models go, I predict that Necrons, also an army with a very current model range, will get no more than two new units, but I'd bet it's only one new model. Dark Eldar are the same, two, maybe three new models at best. I think Blood Angels stand to get the most in terms of new models, along the lines of the Dark Angels release. New Death Company Terminators, new fliers, maybe a new Predator kit.

It's fast money with minimal effort. That's the point he was getting at. Crank out a GK book with half the content, raise the price. Boom. Done. What about new models? No time and it would cost money to make them. They just want the quick easy buck right now.

I expect WFB to get the same rapid release treatment 40K has gotten once all of the softcover 40K codexes are updated. Fantasy has really fallen behind, so it makes sense that GW would to try to rejuvinate the line.

Being able to focus on only one set of rules updates will also allow GW to be more of the model company they claim to be and focus on producing new plastics to replace those outdated finecast models.

 MWHistorian wrote:


It's fast money with minimal effort. That's the point he was getting at. Crank out a GK book with half the content, raise the price. Boom. Done. What about new models? No time and it would cost money to make them. They just want the quick easy buck right now.

Sorry, that fails to explain anything. Orks and Space Wolves were both released with a large quantity of new models. Nothing prevented them from doing the same with Grey Knights. A new book with new models would generate far more revenue than just the book alone. Fast sales cannot be the reason one army gets lots of new models, then the same reason another army gets none. If your "new book, raise price, boom, done" theory were correct they would have done the same thing with Orks and Wolves, after all, no one was screaming for new models for those armies.

I think there is no way that GW will moveon to fantasy and dedicate as much time to WHFB as they currently are to 40k, simply because WHFB takes a pittance in comparison to 40K and always has.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:


It's fast money with minimal effort. That's the point he was getting at. Crank out a GK book with half the content, raise the price. Boom. Done. What about new models? No time and it would cost money to make them. They just want the quick easy buck right now.

Sorry, that fails to explain anything. Orks and Space Wolves were both released with a large quantity of new models. Nothing prevented them from doing the same with Grey Knights. A new book with new models would generate far more revenue than just the book alone. Fast sales cannot be the reason one army gets lots of new models, then the same reason another army gets none. If your "new book, raise price, boom, done" theory were correct they would have done the same thing with Orks and Wolves, after all, no one was screaming for new models for those armies.

I'm not dealing in absolutes. I'm just saying that this time they were super lazy. I never mentioned it was for all releases. That was your conjecture.

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
I'm surprised no one's said the obvious.

They'll update the 6th edition codices to 7th edition. They've shown with the GK codex they don't care anymore if the releases have any new models.

Add some detachments, formations, change some numbers, throw in some cards and a supplement. There we go, new release.

Aye, this. They didn't baulk at giving the core ruleset a lifespan of just 23 months between editions, they won't think twice about invalidating codexes of a similar age. Their entire business model seems to work on the assumption that all of us will buy new books whenever they print them, rather than just saying 'no' and sticking with the current books (which work perfectly fine and do not need updating for the most part)

You know what I think?

When they have made them all hardback books, they will simply re-start again in a similar order, churning the "old" hardback codex's out in the new format..

After that it will be 40k 8th ed imo..

Given the state of the release of the Grey Knights codex, I don't know what we couldn't put past GW releasing.

I mean, they released the Stormclaw set, which, while it was limited, was actually a good value (for them).

Then they released a hardcover Codex with no new models at all, and markedly reduced choices from the previous, less expensive Codex.

While they might have 'a plan', I don't see any evidence from their last six months or so of that plan being coherent or consistent.

The only thing that seems consistent is that GW seems determined to release rules and updates piecemeal and scattered over many different publications (if you thought Chapter Approved used to be bad...). Beyond that, you could see blatant cash grabs, massive price hikes, rules nerfs, or actually discounted product (if you snaffle it up fast enough). You could see amazingly good models (Flash Gits) or (at best) extremely polarizing ones (Grimnar on doglsed). Who knows?

Box sets, giving different battle scenarios. Something along the lines of imerial armour. It would be easy sells can be marketed well and expands people's interest in different armies.

That's what I would do. But I'm not pretending to be able to read the GW hive mind.

Personally I wouldn't object to the above strategy as it give access to cheaper models and maybe scenery.

And just to correct the OP a little, lots of people were asking this question in this thread here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/607499.page

WHFB and the 6th Ed 40k Codices (though probably at a reduced pace from what we are seeing now). Maybe adding more things like Imperial Knights.

It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

All army codexies will now be current to the current rule book.

There are rumours the Chaos codex is being reworked/rewritten and if thats the case who knows what others might get a redo next year whilst 7th is still alive.
I wouldnt hold my breath for the end of 40k or releases.
As mentioned earlier suppliments too provide almost unlimited potential.

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

The problem isn't about complaining about having everything updated, its a question on what will GW do now and will it be enough to save them financially. They already fired their big guns and they have no big things left. So, what now?

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

That is because it is badly updated and twice as expensive as before, which is not what people want. I was trying to avoid negativity but we have to face the facts about the situation.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

The problem isn't about complaining about having everything updated, its a question on what will GW do now and will it be enough to save them financially. They already fired their big guns and they have no big things left. So, what now?

They will make new molded plastic models and make new rules for them so people have more stuff to buy...

They have been releasing stuff over and over for years now adding a little here and there. Why would they stop something that has been working for 7 editions now?

Well, it'll be a while until those last three codexes are updated.

When they are, you can only hope they'll chill and slow down the release schedule, maybe focus a little on Fantasy. The release schedule has been feeling a little rushed, of late. I'd also expect some dataslates/supplements. Hopefully something with Marbo in it.

RJCarrot wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

The problem isn't about complaining about having everything updated, its a question on what will GW do now and will it be enough to save them financially. They already fired their big guns and they have no big things left. So, what now?

They will make new molded plastic models and make new rules for them so people have more stuff to buy...

They have been releasing stuff over and over for years now adding a little here and there. Why would they stop something that has been working for 7 editions now?

Because the financial report indicates that it's not working.

 MWHistorian wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

The problem isn't about complaining about having everything updated, its a question on what will GW do now and will it be enough to save them financially. They already fired their big guns and they have no big things left. So, what now?

They will make new molded plastic models and make new rules for them so people have more stuff to buy...

They have been releasing stuff over and over for years now adding a little here and there. Why would they stop something that has been working for 7 editions now?

Because the financial report indicates that it's not working.

Correlation != Causation.

Maybe GW just reboots WarhammerFantasyBattles with the upcoming "undead" release... and the style there is closer to comics, to current onlineMMORPG.
They could try to run 40k on cruise-control because "our Hobby is to buy the product they graciously offer" ?

Black Library has begun to follow GW's policy of less product for more. Lots of snippets, lots of limited edition.
The main line is also filled with less effort invested.
7th Edition 40k seems like GW in full retreat mode.IMO. Make money as long as possible. Then get off before the keel comes up and the ship takes the final dive down.

40k : set to autorun. ( small releases and a few major ones ). Boxed sets like stormclaw don't need more than a single character to add "value"...
WHFB : attempt to jump on the train of thought: similar to game-graphics = interest generated in a generation of electronic devices eating into the TT market.
( Try to reboot Fantasy. If it fails..... drop miniatures and focus on selling licenses. )
This could work for a year or two. GW plans won't go further than 24 months, yes ?

Would not expect any supplement or dataslates or relaease we want.
GW added big kits to WHFB and copied this idea to 40k. Until everyone has them, nothing new to see.
Gaps in codices weren't filled with figures but closed completly. A miniatures company that does not provide..

Only 7th ed Necrons , BA , DE are a safe bet. Crons got a few bits in the rulebook and BA are easy cause Space Marines. DE however...

or I am totally wrong and we get weekly releases of SM chapters ( 1k to go ) and IG Regiments ( billions..of them ).

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

That is because it is badly updated and twice as expensive as before, which is not what people want. I was trying to avoid negativity but we have to face the facts about the situation.

Pricing aside I really wish dakka would give the whole "the new releases are objectively bad" angle a rest. There are many people who - for the most part - have found the new books to be great. It's entirely subjective.

 Las wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

That is because it is badly updated and twice as expensive as before, which is not what people want. I was trying to avoid negativity but we have to face the facts about the situation.

Pricing aside I really wish dakka would give the whole "the new releases are objectively bad" angle a rest. There are many people who - for the most part - have found the new books to be great. It's entirely subjective.

Last time that got bought up i was simply told that I had low standards. I don't get the hate over the new books, my friends and I all think they're a much bigger improvement on the softbacks.

It's not entirely subjective.

You can count the typos in a codex to get an objective rating of how well it has been done. The new codexes are not always substantially worse than the old ones on typo count (the 4th edition Tau codex was full of howlers) but they cost twice as much and ought to be a lot better.

You can also check the units that have been put into datasheets and formations that have to be purchased separately to your double cost codex, or just removed entirely from the game (e.g. Mycetic Spore Pod).

If people do not care about these objective factors that show the decline in quality that is fine, but please do not blame people for noticing them and complaining about them.

I don't think removing half the options out of a dex and then charging more of it is really subjective. That's an objectively worse value.

However this is all getting off the topic, so I suggest we drop it and get back to the core points.

I have been worried what GW will do after publishing all of the updated codexes in 3 years rather than over 10 (i.e. never.)

Clearly the formations, datasheets and "micro" codexes like Knight Titans will continue, but those will only satisfy the declining number of people who like the current state of the game, which may not be enough to stem the ebbing tide of sales. After all, this tactic has been in effect for 18 months and basically has failed as far as the evidence shows.

I really hope for some new games.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's not entirely subjective.

You can count the typos in a codex to get an objective rating of how well it has been done. The new codexes are not always substantially worse than the old ones on typo count (the 4th edition Tau codex was full of howlers) but they cost twice as much and ought to be a lot better.

You can also check the units that have been put into datasheets and formations that have to be purchased separately to your double cost codex, or just removed entirely from the game (e.g. Mycetic Spore Pod).

If people do not care about these objective factors that show the decline in quality that is fine, but please do not blame people for noticing them and complaining about them.

You've used some very spurious criteria for objectivity in an inherently subjective media. I doubt that many consumers of hobby products give a damn about miss-prints or how many new units vs how many were cut. Or at least, they aren't their main criteria.

I could use the same logic and say that they contain an infinitely higher amount of colour art - therefore are objectively infinitely superior, and worth infinitely as much! But that would be just as absurd.

The number of typos is neither spurious nor subjective. The new codexes do not contain an infinitely higher amount of colour art. The value of colour over mono art is debatable, but not necessarily subjective,

I notice you seem to be unwilling to address the loss of units into additional for purchase publications. Purely subjective?

Please get back on the topic.

Full sisters book.
Full range of SoB models

Inquisition/Stormtrooper book.
Plastic Inquisitors and henchmen.

Eldar book to level out the balance issues- nerf serpent shield, Jetbike squads need to be 5 or more when bought to gain ObSecured, fix Howling Banshees.
Updated Jetbikes, plastic aspect warriors, plastic avatar

Split out Harlequins to their own supplement
Plastic kits

Tau book- bump price for Ion Accelerator and Interceptor wargear a tad. Add new vespid and kroot options.
Plastic Kroot hounds/shapers/krootox. Plastic vespid.

Daemons- fix internal balance- drop Horrors squads to ML1, less psyker levels for most heralds and DPs. Bring back unmarked as an option.
Plastic Greater Daemons/characters. Plastic khorne hounds/kharnak. Plastic Fiends of Slaanesh, Beasts of Nurgle, and Furies/new generic daemon

CSM- Fix internal balance.
Plastic Kits for cult marines, Havocs, Chosen, Obliterators/mutilators

Orks: Some balance tweaks. Kits for Buggies/Trakks, Tank bustas, kommandos

Space Marines- Codex is fine. Kits for Techmarine/Thunderfire cannon, Plastic terminator characters, update Dreadnought, Predator, Razorback kits to have more of the weapon options. Predator especially to have the more durable sponson design of the Baal pred. Maybe Plastic Legion of the Damned + character. Maybe redo ol terminators/assault terminators to be in single kit like wolf guard termies.

Nids- rebalance.
Plastic Broodlord. Plastic Zoanthrope/Venomthrope/Doom. Plastic Biovore/Pyrovore. Plastic Lictor/Deathleper.

Blood Angels- bring to 7th standards.
Plastic Terminator kit. Redone Assault marine squad kit (like new vanguard, with less TH/SS and Lightnin claws and more basic power weapons like Mauls and spears)

Dark Eldar- Need a major rules revamp. They are glass cannons heavy on the glass, and assault units in open topped paper thin transports. Wych cult especially needs a points drop, or dodge to be a normal Inv save (say 5++, 4++ in CC). Move Wracks to Troops to let coven be equal to the other 2 branches. Drop the free missiles for the Razorwing, or give them to the void raven, and give the void raven Strafing run to make it a more sutible bomber.
Plastic Wracks/haemonculus, Grotesques, HQ choices!, Incubi/Drazhar, Mandrakes/Decapitator. Finally release the Void Raven! Plastic court of the archon, beast pack models.

Necrons- Make Tesla not work on Snapfire. Nerf the Tran C'Tan. weaken MSS so they aren't stupid in challenges. Buff Living Metal (maybe have it give IWND and -1 on the pen chart?) Give Praetorians a 2+ save base. Bring back Pariahs as an option for the royal court that have adamantium will and are bad to psykers.
Plastic Royal Court kit, Updated Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer/Des Lord. Plastic Flayed Ones.

That is all before new units.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

ShaneTB wrote:
We were talking about this at the weekend. There's an internal reason for this quick release scale. It's clear they want everything to be done and on a level to make way for...whatever their new strategy is.

I agree 100%. We don't know their reason for the drive to get everything up to date, but there is a reason and a plan.

The reason for the release schedule is to drive sales. New edition, new books, new models. Its not part of some big plan to surprise us with something great. Its an attempt to boost their plummeting sales. Why do you think kits from the same codex are released over a 2-3 week period? Because its a lot easier to get people to spend $100 a week for three weeks in a row, than it is to get them to spend $300 in one purchase.

Dont kid yourselves, the release schedule is a marketing strategy, nothing more. The fact that it will result in all armies being up to date is inconsequential to GW management.

If their sole motivation is to drive sales then why no new Grey Knights models? GKs are lacking in fast attack. Fluff or not they would have sold a ton of Grey Knights on bikes with Nemesis Lances. Three Grey Knights on bikes for $60 - $75? People would have bitched about the price and bought every one GW could crank out. Grey Knights lack long range anti tank. Why no new Dreadnaught with dual twin-linked lascannons and a missle pod, again they would have sold a lot of them.

The fact that no models were released when they could have sold a lot of them weakens your argument. As far as models go, I predict that Necrons, also an army with a very current model range, will get no more than two new units, but I'd bet it's only one new model. Dark Eldar are the same, two, maybe three new models at best. I think Blood Angels stand to get the most in terms of new models, along the lines of the Dark Angels release. New Death Company Terminators, new fliers, maybe a new Predator kit.

So: since no fast attack model was released for GK =the release schedule isnt sales driven. Flawless logic

They're still sitting on a gold mine of supplement material at this point. Supplements for major factions like Biel-tan, Saim-han, Nurgle, Khorne, Bad Moonz, etc.

Beyond that, faction specific terrain and fortifications would be money as well.

Of course, just because you're sitting on a gold mine doesn't mean you're aware of it - it just means you're sitting.

Matt Ward: >Gee, we are all finished with the 40k codices! What are we now going to do tonight, Tom?
Tom Kirby: <The same thing we do every night, Matt, try to create more Space Marines!!!>

What makes you guys think this codex updating has come full circle?

7th edition codexes might be the same size, page number and hardback as 6th edition codexes are, but for all intents and purposes, they have nothing else in common.

Color photography instead of artwork; no armylist section; points costs rolled into the bestiarum, formations, lord of war and tactical objective rules...no, I wouldnt be surprised if Codex: Chaos Daemons or CSM came out early next year.

Hell, I'm sure we'll have a 7th edition Space marine codex by late 2015

After all, the 4th edition and 5th edition space marine codexes also look very similar in terms of size, layout (outside) etc., only the silhouettes got replaced with a proper bestiarum including actual B6W artwork and far longer descriptions and the armylist section was created.

Tyranids 2015: this time try to not feth it up.

 kronk wrote:
To the OP: that's actually a fair question. When they're all caught up, then what?

Black Templar supplement.

Death Guard supplement.

Bad Moons supplement.

Then, I dunno.

How can you forget:

Kranken supplement.

Behemoth supplement.

By the time they're caught up, it'll be a ripe moment for a new Space Marine codex, and then the process can begin all over again!

...What, you didn't think this release rate had anything to do with completion did you? Oh no, my good friend, the money is books! Books that can be invalidated and replaced with minimal investment, acting as something consumers are obligated to buy (if they want to stay current with all of their other gaming friends, that is).

Bojazz wrote:
What about BROWN space marines though?

RAINBOW MARINES!

They had those back in the day. The Rainbow Warriors Chapter.

Come on plastic Thunderhawk kits.

MW - GK is, from some angles, an outlier. It was always a weird codex, as it was grey knights in theory, in practice it was GK, with some other Inquisition orders in there, some that you would NOT see GK alongside (Daemonhosts? noone remember the outcry there?)

So splitting it out into the sensible divisions makes sense from a composition stand point, and means you dont have to update everything if you need to adjust assassins, for example.

This release is only "lazy" if you ignore that.

Sand.zzz - actually it was pointing out that your assumption, that releases ARE model-sales driven, is belied by GK. Not that they are NOT model sales driven, but that your assumption that they ARE is disproven.

sand.zzz wrote:


So: since no fast attack model was released for GK =the release schedule isnt sales driven. Flawless logic

Not even close to what I said.

 Sir Arun wrote:
What makes you guys think this codex updating has come full circle?

7th edition codexes might be the same size, page number and hardback as 6th edition codexes are, but for all intents and purposes, they have nothing else in common.

Color photography instead of artwork; no armylist section; points costs rolled into the bestiarum, formations, lord of war and tactical objective rules...no, I wouldnt be surprised if Codex: Chaos Daemons or CSM came out early next year.

Hell, I'm sure we'll have a 7th edition Space marine codex by late 2015

After all, the 4th edition and 5th edition space marine codexes also look very similar in terms of size, layout (outside) etc., only the silhouettes got replaced with a proper bestiarum including actual B6W artwork and far longer descriptions and the armylist section was created.

I think if GW are going to start redoing the 6th edition codices they are shooting themselves in the foot. Their rule books are already really expensive, if they are going to replace them every 2 and a half years the value is going to drop even more. The business practice of milking your remaining customers more as more of them leave is not sustainable in wargaming, especially since their market share and revenue has been dropping.

When GW finishes the last few codicies they'll release 8th ed and start all over again.

But that's okay, because GW is a business: that means they're supposed to scalp as much money as they can off cheap plastic, wonky rules and planned obsolescence. And as we all know, the GW hobby is buying as much of it as you can.

Yaaay!

Bring back the Templars!

My guess is they will focus on Fantasy in 2015 with the occasional new model and Dataslate for 40K.

Also, is there not a new Hobbit Sequel out next year ? I imagine White Drawf will be flooded with Hobbit Releases.

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

If GW completely updated the edition by dropping every faction that didn't have a new codex, people would also freak out, despite wanting a completely updated edition.

Wanting a completely updated edition wasn't the ONLY thing that people wanted, y'know.

 adamsouza wrote:
My guess is they will focus on Fantasy in 2015 with the occasional new model and Dataslate for 40K.

Also, is there not a new Hobbit Sequel out next year ? I imagine White Drawf will be flooded with Hobbit Releases.

Hobbit is dead.
There was like.. one wave of releases as the last movie came out an nothing else for like the last 9-10 months.

I'm normally opposed to the idea of a Big Marine book with merged in Wolves, BA, and DA becausse size constraints, but if it was like the new Nagash book- a 300 page fluff and art book, and a 96 page rules book, I bet it would be possible.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
My guess is they will focus on Fantasy in 2015 with the occasional new model and Dataslate for 40K.

Also, is there not a new Hobbit Sequel out next year ? I imagine White Drawf will be flooded with Hobbit Releases.

Hobbit is dead.
There was like.. one wave of releases as the last movie came out an nothing else for like the last 9-10 months.

That happens when a two movie series is expanded to three at the last moment, and GW wasn't the only company affected. With just the teaser trailer so far, there should be plenty of releases for The Hobbit this year.

 Ghaz wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
My guess is they will focus on Fantasy in 2015 with the occasional new model and Dataslate for 40K.

Also, is there not a new Hobbit Sequel out next year ? I imagine White Drawf will be flooded with Hobbit Releases.

Hobbit is dead.
There was like.. one wave of releases as the last movie came out an nothing else for like the last 9-10 months.

That happens when a two movie series is expanded to three at the last moment, and GW wasn't the only company affected. With just the teaser trailer so far, there should be plenty of releases for The Hobbit this year.

It's possible that's all it was but we also heard something about there being another starter set ready to go when New Line said no because Smaug wasn't properly to scale.
We also heard Kirby talk about how their 3 game systems would soon become 2 in the yearly report.

I don't think Hobbit will be around much longer, nor will GW invest more than they absolutely have to in the near future.

GW wasn't the only company affected. IIRC, Lego releases for the Desolation of Smaug were either sparse or didn't make sense in regards to what was seen in the movie.

Personally, I would prefer they dropped hobbit and focused on 40k and Fantasy.

Having both Hobbit and Fantasy seemed redundant. Incompatible rules and different scales always irked me.I wouldn't even have minded the different rules if the LOTR/Hobbit models were the same scale.

 adamsouza wrote:
Personally, I would prefer they dropped hobbit and focused on 40k and Fantasy.

Having both Hobbit and Fantasy seemed redundant. Incompatible rules and different scales always irked me.I wouldn't even have minded the different rules if the LOTR/Hobbit models were the same scale.

I won't argue with any of that but bringing this back around to the topic at hand with only 2 game systems GW doesn't have anything else to push to keep profitable nor do they have a fallback if one or both of their systems fail.

2 games that have survived 20-25 years

They are now happily licensing out the IP to FFG and video game developers.

Why waste your own money investing in a game that may fail when someone else will do it and cut you in for a percentage ?

Actually make an army for the Demiurg. Please. Please....

Surviving 25 years means nothing, the hobby has been exploding recently and GWs competition are seeing massive growth while 40k and Fantasy seem to be shrinking at an unhealthy and increasing rate. GW should be diversifyiny their range, not doubling down and assuming that something that worked in the distant past will continue to work.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Surviving 25 years means nothing, the hobby has been exploding recently and GWs competition are seeing massive growth while 40k and Fantasy seem to be shrinking at an unhealthy and increasing rate.

Which games and manufacturers are you alluding to ?

Mantic Dread Ball ? I backed the kickstarter and own EVERYTHING, and I've still spent more on single 40K armies

Mantic Deadzone ? Same story

Warmachine ? Most people I know who play Warmahine play 40K as well, guess which one gets more of their cash ?

Inifinity ? Honestly never seen a game played

GW should be diversifyiny their range, not doubling down and assuming that something that worked in the distant past will continue to work.

They are licensing their range. The New 40K MMO probably makes them more money than the next Gorkamorka would.

 adamsouza wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Surviving 25 years means nothing, the hobby has been exploding recently and GWs competition are seeing massive growth while 40k and Fantasy seem to be shrinking at an unhealthy and increasing rate.

Which games and manufacturers are you alluding to ?

Mantic Dread Ball ? I backed the kickstarter and own EVERYTHING, and I've still spent more on single 40K armies

Mantic Deadzone ? Same story

Warmachine ? Most people I know who play Warmahine play 40K as well, guess which one gets more of their cash ?

Inifinity ? Honestly never seen a game played

Good for you, but doesn't change the facts.

I've never actually seen someone play Dropzone Commander in person. Hawk Wargames should be bankrupt by the end of the week.

Some data slates and warhammer fantasy battles probably.

 adamsouza wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Surviving 25 years means nothing, the hobby has been exploding recently and GWs competition are seeing massive growth while 40k and Fantasy seem to be shrinking at an unhealthy and increasing rate.

Which games and manufacturers are you alluding to ?

Mantic Dread Ball ? I backed the kickstarter and own EVERYTHING, and I've still spent more on single 40K armies

Mantic Deadzone ? Same story

Warmachine ? Most people I know who play Warmahine play 40K as well, guess which one gets more of their cash ?

Inifinity ? Honestly never seen a game played

That is all anecdotal though. Mantic have said they have sold something like 4 times as much dreadball stuff since the kickstarter ended and Corvus Belli have shown us charts at Gengon showing something like 25%, 75%, 75% again, 14% and 24%* growth for the past few years. GW in the same time frame remained at or around the inflation line (effectively 0 growth) then suddenly tanked hard this last year.

What you see played in your area is mostly meaningless, because we KNOW that GW sales are way down across the board and we KNOW that other companies are expanding their ranges significantly and are showing real, sustainable growth.

 adamsouza wrote:

GW should be diversifyiny their range, not doubling down and assuming that something that worked in the distant past will continue to work.

They are licensing their range. The New 40K MMO probably makes them more money than the next Gorkamorka would.

That is actually a really good thing there, they need new revenue streams, but I'm worried it wont be enough since their royalties only went up from £1m to £1.4m. For reference 2011 and 2010 where £2.5m and £3m.


(*I'm iffy on those last two numbers, can't seem to find the pic but the back to back 75%s where shown off at last years and are solid)

We get bits of hard data here in there. The main distributor of games for Australia posted on Facebook how hot Dystopian Wars 2.0 was that it was outselling 7E Warhammer 40k 6:1 (or was it 7:1?). So that either means very little Warhammer 40k is sold in Australia (shocker, we know this) or Dystopian Wars 2.0 is hot stuff.

A lot of other games are picking up steam. You can see it in major GTs that are all getting a significant chunk of "other games" instead of just being 40k only scenes. We're seeing huge upticks in growth of the smaller companies and we have financial folks with access to market analytics stating that gaming is growing in the double digits while GW games are in the double digits decline. We have seen this corroborated in that annual public report that ranks the "Top 5" war games, as well.

Games like X Wing, Attack Wing, Warmahordes, et al are all taking a significant chunk out of Warhammer 40k funds for many gamers these days.

The problem is not 40k and Fantasy themselves, those 2 names have weight, story and a lot of fans. The problem is GW's unwillingness to balance their rules, hear their gaming community and do other sensible stuff like reducing their prices. Unless GW changes that they are boned.

technically chaos space marines and necrons can be updated too. They are newer codices but theyre also either "5th edition" or "an experiment" as the excuse was for CSM being so ... random with their units' uses and strengths. While necrons dont need it theyre still a 5th ed book.

After that yea new dataslates, special mission and rule books, and supplements are going to be coming out in droves. Wouldnt doubt it if at some point each and every race has their own "imperial knight" type thing that isnt LoW and isnt part of a normal FoC, but allied in on its own or taken as an army like the knights.

Ghaz wrote:GW wasn't the only company affected. IIRC, Lego releases for the Desolation of Smaug were either sparse or didn't make sense in regards to what was seen in the movie.

GW killed The Hobbit more than anything, massively overpriced and the bare minimum range. There's actually a lot of The Hobbit models I like, but they cost a fething fortune. There is absolutely no way I can justify it.

The LOTR Mines of Moria boxed set was pretty much an impulse buy for me (I tend to never impulse buy things, but this was the closest I get to an impulse buy). It came with nice looking models that could be expanded in to a decent army for a low price. Great value is what sold it to me, and I then went on to buy a Rohan army to supplement my Moria goblins.

The Hobbit came out, the boxed set was no where near the "impulse buy" range, it was waaay over. GW shot themselves in the foot.

Then you also have the fact The Hobbit game has not been advertised at all while the LOTR game was somewhat.

adamsouza wrote:Personally, I would prefer they dropped hobbit and focused on 40k and Fantasy.

Having both Hobbit and Fantasy seemed redundant. Incompatible rules and different scales always irked me.I wouldn't even have minded the different rules if the LOTR/Hobbit models were the same scale.

I disagree on all points.

Firstly, they don't put any effort in to LOTR/Hobbit anyway, so it wouldn't give them any more time to focus on 40k and Fantasy if they dropped it. Secondly, IMO, they should focus on expanding to new games, not bloating 40k and Fantasy. IMO they need to focus on fixing the rules in 40k and Fantasy instead of milking them and start getting money from other games.

Secondly, no, having both LOTR and Fantasy was not redundant because they were different enough games to coexist. Also, yes, it could be annoying that the scales were different, but in the end this was a good thing IMO as the LOTR scale was a realistic scale which I much prefer.

adamsouza wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Surviving 25 years means nothing, the hobby has been exploding recently and GWs competition are seeing massive growth while 40k and Fantasy seem to be shrinking at an unhealthy and increasing rate.

Which games and manufacturers are you alluding to ?

Mantic Dread Ball ? I backed the kickstarter and own EVERYTHING, and I've still spent more on single 40K armies

Mantic Deadzone ? Same story

Warmachine ? Most people I know who play Warmahine play 40K as well, guess which one gets more of their cash ?

Inifinity ? Honestly never seen a game played

Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless. Most people around here have completely quit GW games, the only place you still find people playing them is the GW store itself, and that's a shadow of what it used to be and is mostly teenagers playing after school. The FLGS up the road is thriving on Infinity, Malifaux, Flames of War, Warmahordes, X-wing and the plethora of FFG games. Barely anyone plays 40k anymore, even less play Fantasy.

GW should be diversifyiny their range, not doubling down and assuming that something that worked in the distant past will continue to work.

They are licensing their range. The New 40K MMO probably makes them more money than the next Gorkamorka would.

Most the money from making a successful video game goes to paying for advertising and wages of the developers, the next biggest chunk goes to the publisher I would think. I doubt GW get a hell of a lot from the license. Looking at some of their past reports, royalties peaked in about 2008-2009 (DOW2 being released Feb that year) and it only accounted for 4.3% of revenue. Most years it's 1-2.5% revenue.

That's assuming the MMO doesn't flop.

If GW themselves made a large royalty, I doubt anyone would make games for them. Video gaming is a cut-throat industrustry, the low end is full of cheap easy to make games that go nowhere and a few lucky ones that become popular. The high end is full of games that cost millions to make and if they don't sell millions they are a failure because they won't recoup advertising and development costs. Lets not forget that THQ, the publisher of GW games, went under. I could be wrong, but I don't think GW can make a lot of money out of selling their name.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless. Most people around here have completely quit GW games, the only place you still find people playing them is the GW store itself, and that's a shadow of what it used to be and is mostly teenagers playing after school. The FLGS up the road is thriving on Infinity, Malifaux, Flames of War, Warmahordes, X-wing and the plethora of FFG games. Barely anyone plays 40k anymore, even less play Fantasy.

Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless.

Indeed it is. The reason I gave my own anecdotal evidence was because saying "anecdotal evidence is meaningless" is in itself meaningless unless providing contradicting anecdotal evidence.. My point was that my anecdotal evidence contradicts your anecdotal evidence therefore neither can be taken seriously.

This is how a lot of science is done. Building up of agreeing anecdotal evidence leads to an a model of how things work, except when contradicting anecdotal evidence is presented and the model breaks down.

I'm not just going to say "your evidence is crap". I'm going to say "your evidence is crap, this is why".

One one hand this sounds as an interesting observation.
It could be that 40k will be "complete" in the sense that everything that already exists is ready and there is time for something new. That would be VERY good thing.

On the other hand i am afraid that the "GW is about models, not rules" is a nice sounding statement, but not true.
I read it as a GW statement and it is being repeated.
But never in history did they (seem to) focus so much on making money on rules, not models. Not only by the price of the books, but also the invention of the concept of supplements (and their price) .

It's the first time since 40k history, and i started with the first book, The Rogue Trader, that i don't buy every book (or supplement).
Simply because i cannot afford to. I have to choose between rules and models, and I choose models.

Wish listing, but I hope they release an 'Agents of the Imperium' faction with all of the cool stuff in the background that gets ignored model wise, e.g. Arbites, Custodes, Navigators etc. I would much prefer this to some dodgy new race. Surely they learnt this was a bad idea from the Tau mistake?

And as far as anectdotes go...

The number of GW players has declined in The Netherlands as well, locally as well as, what i hear from other players in other regions, nationally. The wargame community as a whole is smaller too.
And the ones that play/keep GW, play/keep 40k and play/keep fewer armies, because of the cost.
Some old-scool GW players do play GW, but the unsupported games, like Blood Bowl, BFG, Epic, some even keep playing older editions of 40k (2nd).

Furthermore other games have taken GW's place.
X-Wing, Flames of War, Spartan Games, a bit of Infinity and Malifaux. It's all quite fragmented really...

I myself still have everything and have and play many of the other systems too. But the fragmantation of the wargame community sees to it that there are not many players for any game(system) really...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additional - Wishlisting

Bring back "The Rogue Trader"
The freelancer, rogue, trader, scroundrel, "the organisation" etc.
ANY not-soldier.

In 1st edition the universe incorporated everything.
There was trade, there were farmers, there was industry, there were families (and yes... love! ;-)

But now "there is only war"

My wishlisting is that GW actually brings back specialist games and branches out to create new games instead of just pounding on 40k and WHFB until they are bloodied and bruised to within an inch of their life.

I don't really think it's going to happen as the ideal time for that has sort of passed. I also think with GW's current pricing scheme they've almost priced themselves out of creating new games.

The return of Specialist Games would be great indeed.

And it does not have to cost too much, Epic or BFG can easily be made by designing 1 or 2 plastic sprues per army.

And sales would not be too much of a problem.
All players in my player-group still own Epic, even when they have sold most other armies and games.

But the question is if GW still wants to diversify.
They SAY they are about models, so even with a smal staff you could easily bring back the specialist games.
It could be they are only about 28mm models in the future.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Wish listing, but I hope they release an 'Agents of the Imperium' faction with all of the cool stuff in the background that gets ignored model wise, e.g. Arbites, Custodes, Navigators etc. I would much prefer this to some dodgy new race. Surely they learnt this was a bad idea from the Tau mistake?

bad? dont be a hater. tau are awesome

ORicK wrote:
The return of Specialist Games would be great indeed.

And it does not have to cost too much, Epic or BFG can easily be made by designing 1 or 2 plastic sprues per army.

And sales would not be too much of a problem.
All players in my player-group still own Epic, even when they have sold most other armies and games.

But the question is if GW still wants to diversify.
They SAY they are about models, so even with a smal staff you could easily bring back the specialist games.
It could be they are only about 28mm models in the future.

I think the most you can hope for with Specialist Games is having them as video games. Not sure how they'd tackle Epic, but Space Hulk appears to be doing well and Mordheim looks set to do well also.
While GW is far from perfect, I think you should all just accept the fact that it's just asking the impossible to please everyone.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
but Space Hulk appears to be doing well

It does? When it came out it got mostly bad reviews and even fans of 40k and Space Hulk weren't buying it. I think most people who have it just picked it up when it was on sale for only a few dollars. That's better than nothing, but it's not going to be raking in much money like that.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
but Space Hulk appears to be doing well

It does? When it came out it got mostly bad reviews and even fans of 40k and Space Hulk weren't buying it. I think most people who have it just picked it up when it was on sale for only a few dollars. That's better than nothing, but it's not going to be raking in much money like that.

It's picked up a bit now they've given it a good clean up with some patching. There's also a new shinier version of Space Hulk coming out called SH:Ascension. Looks very nice- less like the board game tiles and more creepy derelict ship(s) style

My guess as to why they've rushed the codex updates: they'll put the 40k rules-set up for sale.

I hope so, anyway.

 Skinnereal wrote:
My guess as to why they've rushed the codex updates: they'll put the 40k rules-set up for sale.

I hope so, anyway.

I hadn't really considered that, I don't think it's likely. But the rapid releases could be trying to drum up the revenue of 40k before they sell it, and Kirby is retiring not long before I expect all the codices to be updated.

 TheKbob wrote:
We get bits of hard data here in there. The main distributor of games for Australia posted on Facebook how hot Dystopian Wars 2.0 was that it was outselling 7E Warhammer 40k 6:1 (or was it 7:1?). So that either means very little Warhammer 40k is sold in Australia (shocker, we know this) or Dystopian Wars 2.0 is hot stuff.

A lot of other games are picking up steam. You can see it in major GTs that are all getting a significant chunk of "other games" instead of just being 40k only scenes. We're seeing huge upticks in growth of the smaller companies and we have financial folks with access to market analytics stating that gaming is growing in the double digits while GW games are in the double digits decline. We have seen this corroborated in that annual public report that ranks the "Top 5" war games, as well.

Games like X Wing, Attack Wing, Warmahordes, et al are all taking a significant chunk out of Warhammer 40k funds for many gamers these days.

Dystopian Wars 2.0 was really hot stuff. My flgs was sold out before I could get my hands on it
Still, all those double digit growth rates do not mean much yet. All other miniature wargames are still rather insignificant compared to GW's 40k/WHFB, and I have yet to see any of those other companies opening up retail stores or listing on stock exchances. It may change in the future, but as of now, GW still is a giant compared to other miniature wargames companies. It varies from area to area of course, but where I am, 80-90% of games played is still GW.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Dystopian Wars 2.0 was really hot stuff. My flgs was sold out before I could get my hands on it
Still, all those double digit growth rates do not mean much yet. All other miniature wargames are still rather insignificant compared to GW's 40k/WHFB..

I disagree, the ICV2 report over in News and Rumours shows that the top selling games in the US are 40k, X wing, Star Trek attack wing, Warmachine and Hordes. Fantasy has entirely fallen off the radar and yes, those other games are now very significant.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
..and I have yet to see any of those other companies opening up retail stores or listing on stock exchances.

Both of those are good things imo. The retail store is costing GW something like a hundred million pounds a year to maintain for what appears to be no benefit. As for being listed on the stock market, being run by people who have never played the game is the other thing killing GW, keeping their companies private is exactly what I want to see from other companies.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It may change in the future, but as of now, GW still is a giant compared to other miniature wargames companies. It varies from area to area of course, but where I am, 80-90% of games played is still GW.

According to that ICV2 report the tabletop mini's market in the US is worth about 125 million US, GW only made about 50 million in the US market so they are less than half of that market.

GW is still the #1 tabletop war gaming company. No single company can come close to matching their revenue even in a bad year. However, 10 small but successful companies can eat away at GW's slice of the pie just like 1 large company can. Just because they have a majority of the market share right now doesn't mean they're immune to competition. Hell, 12 years ago that list was probably 4 out of 5 GW games and GW was 80%~ of the table top war gaming scene in America. Fast forward to today and they're less than 50%, and shrinking.

So GW is planing to go all Nokia on players?

Makumba wrote:
So GW is planing to go all Nokia on players?

Thinking that through, is that such a bad thing?

 adamsouza wrote:
2 games that have survived 20-25 years

They are now happily licensing out the IP to FFG and video game developers.

Why waste your own money investing in a game that may fail when someone else will do it and cut you in for a percentage ?

I think it was Voltaire who was asked why the Roman Empire fell, and said that it was because everything falls. The point is that just because 40K/Fantasy has survived this far, does not mean they are guaranteed to survive for much longer.

I would argue that until a few years ago, 40K/Fantasy did not survive alone, they were part of an evolving Games Workshop ecosystem of games and shops with a much wider variety of products and services including skirmish scale games, boardgames, shows, events, tournaments, a popular magazine, games clubs and a thriving veteran community that all contributed to the creation of a supportive environment that helped to sustain the two core games.

All of that has been ground down to the point that many veterans now actively work against GW by criticising them, emphasising the high prices, low value and quality, and the availability of better alternatives.

GW now sell only two games to an audience that clearly has been shrinking for several years, which makes me worry that they have got a major problem with their marketing strategy.

Because of this I am not at all convinced that 40K/Fantasy will survive for very much longer, unless GW achieve a major turnaround.

GW isn't going to survive for very much longer, unless GW achieve a major turnaround. I believe 40K/Fantasy will outlive GW, as other companies will buy the IP if/when GW goes down.

I'm of the mind that GW will re-do the early 6th Ed Codexes once they finish updating the leftovers from 5th. DA and Chaos can be given the GK treatment (new rules, point adjustments, no new models) and frankly, a lot of Chaos players would scoop that gak right up if there was even a sliver of a chance the new book would be an improvement. I can't speak for DA players, but I get the sense they feel kinda 'meh' about their book, too.

Then, of course, you could re-do the SM codex (guaranteed super big sales!) along the same lines... since the models are all current (ish) you could crank out a book and make a profit with minimal investment. Oh, be sure to remove all of the special characters that are only available in Failcast and only make plastic versions of the Ultramarine characters, too.

Who else has a 6th edition codex? Tyranids? Eldar? Give 'em a quick update (push really hard that this is to bring them in line with the 'new' rules dynamic of 7th ed and is only going to make the armies better... though in the case of 'Nids, there is little that can be done to make them worse). No new models, just all the copypasta you can stand, and be sure to raise the price $10 on each book.

Once all of the 5th and 6th codexes are replaced by 7th ed versions, only then will we see GW possibly release something completely new.

Releasing an all-new army or doing Sisters in plastic is a major undertaking and not at all guaranteed to succeed. GW is going to want to make a large enough profit that if the new project fails they will have a cushion of money to land on. The easiest way to do that is to make money on the cheap and 'updating' the 6th ed codexes is the easiest way to do that. Its guaranteed sales. After all, people can't play 40K without the rules for their army, right?

I know every gaming group is it's own ecosystem, but locally at least, veterans are griping about GW, but they are still playing and updating their armies and tactics for 7th.

The top TCGs and CMGs rock their meta every 6 months and thrive because of it.

As much as some people buck and grind against change, new is good for sales, since it encourages new adopters and rekindles interest in veterans.

New can also be very bad though.

In the situation we are currently in there are a lot of dissatisfied gamers on the fence about leaving or simply with waning interest
If a new core book/codex is released and they don't immediately rush out to buy it then the odds go up they'll never bother buying it and the decision to quit GW will be made without them even realizing as they no longer have the current rules even if the urge to game strikes them.


As well card games changing the meta every 6 months is a lot better than what GW do since it can take people 6 months to get an army together and painted. Its just not the same with cards.

 adamsouza wrote:
I know every gaming group is it's own ecosystem, but locally at least, veterans are griping about GW, but they are still playing and updating their armies and tactics for 7th.

The top TCGs and CMGs rock their meta every 6 months and thrive because of it.

As much as some people buck and grind against change, new is good for sales, since it encourages new adopters and rekindles interest in veterans.

TCGs appeal to people who like that kind of game. Wargamers don't or we would be playing them instead of wargames.

Wargame veterans can switch system whenever we feel like a change. We don't need or want games that change frequently and uselessly just to make us spend more money on them. We need games that achieve a peak of perfection and balance so that we can complete our setup for that game and make a new setup for a different game.

New adopters don't need change. Everything is new to new adopters no matter how old it might be because they have never seen it before.

GW however does not want to make new games. They want to keep changing 40K, with the idea of making players keep on spending for the New.

New has not been good for GW sales in the last few years. They have overdone it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
We don't need or want games that change frequently and uselessly just to make us spend more money on them. We need games that achieve a peak of perfection and balance so that we can complete our setup for that game and make a new setup for a different game.

Then Wargamers wouldn't buy that game any more, and the game would die.

What wargamers may want, and what's good for the longevity of a game are not always the same.

Supplements / Dataslates
Terrain
Campaign books
Fortifications for xenos and lots of fortification models, that's a slot people can take with little models in it esp outside imperial style.

If new factions are introduced at some point, hopefully we see a Mechanicum army. It's obviously a long shot, especially if we get plastic Sisters, but it's a logical direction. I could also see a new xenos army being released.

I do wonder if GW will turn their attentions to WFB though - Nagash was just released and it's highly likely more new models are on the way in that department.

With only Blood Angels, Necrons, and Dark Eldar left to go, I'd wager 2015 being heavy on Warhammer Fantasy releases.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
We don't need or want games that change frequently and uselessly just to make us spend more money on them. We need games that achieve a peak of perfection and balance so that we can complete our setup for that game and make a new setup for a different game.

Then Wargamers wouldn't buy that game any more, and the game would die.

What wargamers may want, and what's good for the longevity of a game are not always the same.

Starcraft 1 hasn't been changed for years and is still played heavily to this day, and still has a professional scene. So I disagree that gamers would move on. They'd continue buying other games, but they'd play this one perfect game for a long time to come. Just because the game is "perfected" doesn't mean it couldn't be added to still either.

There are many things they can (and likely will do):

1. Create new armies with new models
2. Update existing armies with new models
3. Continue having Black Library pump out dozens of new books per year
4. Sell more/new terrain
5. Create new supplies, including paint/ink/washes
6. Dataslates/other digital goods
7. Focus on Warhammer Fantasy, completely overhauling every Codex and army (see points 1. and 2. again).

Maybe even have a sale once in a while so people can start new armies?

Miniatures game manufacturers aren't even on the same playing field as video game producers. As awesome as Starcraft is, it's an anonomly.

Play many games of Stargrunt, Vampire the Masquerade, Full Thrust, D&D 2nd edition, Shock Force, Space Hulk, Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, or Mordheim lately ?

I've got a closet full of awesome games that are all dead beacause they stopped being profitable.

GW isn't Hasbro. They can't repackage the same game over and over, and get people to buy it without making it new.

Heck, even Hasbro can't do it anymore. Have you seen how many versions there are now of classic board games ? I've lost count how many variations of Risk, Uno, monopoly, etc.. there are now.

NEW SELLS !!!

Making Changes Makes it New !!

The New version of 40K has great potential as a jump on point for new players, and a way to draw old players back.

PERFECT 40K has ZERO incentive to lure old players to back. It would be the same game expereince, only it would cost more for everything, so why would they bother ?

NEW 40K drives sales for new adopters, maybe some vets rage quit
PERFECT 40K dies slowly as vet players move on to new games since they have everything they need, and there are few new players

7th made me come back. I got into it when I was young so I made the mistake of buying basically every special character for my army and a bunch of random units that didn't really constitute your typical FOC army. With 7th I was able to get some games in and learn the rules while I built and painted what I needed to have a decent army. If we were still on 5th rules I doubt I would've gotten back into it.

As far as what GW has up their sleeve, there is still plenty of stuff they could make to drive sales. After every bad financial report we hear "what can they do to survive? They released X, Y and Z this half year and are still flat. Now what? Then they go and make some other big kit, LE book or scenery and it sells. They have a TON of supplements they could make that will sell. Exodite eldar, thousand sons, the list goes on.

 adamsouza wrote:
Miniatures game manufacturers aren't even on the same playing field as video game producers. As awesome as Starcraft is, it's an anonomly.

It's only an anomaly because it's basically perfect. Being perfect gives it endurance. Being bad makes games fall by the wayside and get replaced. There's a reason chess is still around - it's perfect at what it does.

Play many games of Stargrunt, Vampire the Masquerade, Full Thrust, D&D 2nd edition, Shock Force, Space Hulk, Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, or Mordheim lately ?

None of those are perfect. I know people that still play DnD 3rd though!

NEW SELLS !!!

A game with perfect rules can still have new content, there will just be a small period of rebalancing after it.

I came back for 7th edition, the New Orks, New Space Marines, New Astra Militarum, and new Blood Angels

Starcraft still exists beacause they are owned by Blizzard, which has continuous revenue from WOW and the new games they churn out. There is no way they could stay in buissiness on Starcraft Revenue alone.

Chess is still around because not only is it a brilliant game, it's both royalty free and inexpensive to produce. They have chess sets in dollar stores. GW can not sustain itself on Dollar Store revenue.

My gaming group would argue that D&D 3.5 is just this side of perfect. There are moutnains of 3rd party material for that game still available dirt cheap, and it's compatible with Pathfinder, which is still in production.

Incidently, we moved onto playing Pathfinder, which we now consider to be about as perfect as D&D has ever been.

Each edition of 40K is essentially just new content with period of rebalancing following it, known as the next edition.

2nd edition was better than Rogue Trader
3rd Edition was balanced better than 2nd,
4th was better than 3rd
5th was better than 4th
6th was better than 5th with added flyers and fortifications
7th is better than 6th with better internally balanced codexes, uniform Psychic Powers, and more previously EPIC scaled stuff rolled in

I'm going to argue that no game is perfect, since "perfect", as pertaining to gaming, is subjective.

Honestly, I don't feel the quest for perfection is ever the real problem.

When I hear people complain about changing 40K editions it usually comes down to 3 things.
1.) I don't want to spend the money/ how dare they make me spend more money
2.) The new edition breaks my existing power combo, so I have to change my strategy
3.) I'm bored with the game anyway, I don't want to be bothered to learn new rules, time to rage quit.

The Grey Knights Codex is a perfect example of this.
Roughly half the complaints are about the Inquisitors and Assassins being moved to seperate sources, requiring additional investment.
The other half of the complaints basically revolve around weapons stat changes that encourage actually using the other weapon choices. The perception that the new version encourages or forces a change in playstyle is being raged against.

 adamsouza wrote:
When I hear people complain about changing 40K editions it usually comes down to 3 things.
1.) I don't want to spend the money/ how dare they make me spend more money
2.) The new edition breaks my existing power combo, so I have to change my strategy
3.) I'm bored with the game anyway, I don't want to be bothered to learn new rules, time to rage quit.

Sorry mate, that's just bollocks. There are *heaps* of posts here on Dakka about why people complain and none of those are mentioned. Read the Why I left GW and where I went to instead thread if you want to actually know why people leave.

The Grey Knights Codex is a perfect example of this.
Roughly half the complaints are about the Inquisitors and Assassins being moved to seperate sources, requiring additional investment.

It's not the money, it's the reduction in value when the value is supposed to *increase* over time. To be in this hobby you need to have substantial money. It doesn't mean you need to accept a rodgering by having 15 of the 38 units removed from one edition to the next, and then be charged more for the privilege - and then get to buy the removed units separately again for even more.

Starcraft still exists beacause they are owned by Blizzard, which has continuous revenue from WOW and the new games they churn out. There is no way they could stay in buissiness on Starcraft Revenue alone.

What? Starcraft 1 is often played on a non-Blizzard service, Blizzards ridiculous income has nothing to do with it surviving this long.

Chess is still around because not only is it a brilliant game, it's both royalty free and inexpensive to produce. They have chess sets in dollar stores. GW can not sustain itself on Dollar Store revenue.

They could survive - and thrive - selling at a substantially lower price without the millstone that is their retail chain hanging around their neck and the incompetence of their senior management letting great opportunities pass them by while they drive their IP into the ground. Most people don't play Chess because it's cheap. They play because it's excellent at what it does.

People can view their motivations through rose colored glasses, and I'm was being blunt about it.

All the fething assasins are BETTER, but the complaint is they are seperate from the GK codex.
GW's motivations aside, the complaint about the Assasins falls under my #1 (More Money).

GK Codex has less troops in it, now found elsewhere ? #1

Found another game you rather spend your resources on ? #3 (Bored Now)

Your army based around Nob Bikers/looted wagons/anything else that got nerfed or squatted ? #2 (Change Sux)

Honestly, I'm going to stop talking about Starcraft. I played it for a week, found it far from perfect, not sure why people still play it.

I'm not GW's biggest fan. They probably have made a crap ton of mistakes. I don't like how much the prices of thier new releases have risen. Their bullying tactics with smaller companies are terrible.

Hating GW has become a meme at this point. There isn't anything they can do that won't incite rage on the internet at this point.
Matt Ward hate has become a past time that defies human logic.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
We don't need or want games that change frequently and uselessly just to make us spend more money on them. We need games that achieve a peak of perfection and balance so that we can complete our setup for that game and make a new setup for a different game.

Then Wargamers wouldn't buy that game any more, and the game would die.

Which is why GW shouldn't have killed specialist games. I think over the years I've probably spend more at GW on games that weren't 40k or WHFB than I have on those two. A lot of things will kill a single game all on its lonesome. I would argue that the constantly changing rules have only added limited life to 40k and WHFB. Each edition change I see many people leave the game and some people start the game. 40k has always been the domain of teens and early 20's, at least in my area. Most the older players move on to other games. That would indicate that the constant changing of the rules hasn't really helped them, at least anecdotally in my area.

GW better have something good planned for when they finish with 40k, because they look to be in trouble from what I'm seeing if they can't maintain high sales in it.

I think it just means that they will do the same for fantasy over the following 2 years. New edition, now army books and maybe a new starter. Hopefully for 40k it means they will periodically release stormclaw esque sets, with different armies, a healthy discount and a mini rulebook.

I'd imagine they'd just go onto WHFB and do everything to that that they did to 40k and try to suck people in, then going back and doing it all again with 40k, or make specialist games again. Hard to say but I'll stick around to find out.

 adamsouza wrote:
People can view their motivations through rose colored glasses, and I'm was being blunt about it.

All the fething assasins are BETTER, but the complaint is they are seperate from the GK codex.
GW's motivations aside, the complaint about the Assasins falls under my #1 (More Money).

GK Codex has less troops in it, now found elsewhere ? #1

Found another game you rather spend your resources on ? #3 (Bored Now)

Your army based around Nob Bikers/looted wagons/anything else that got nerfed or squatted ? #2 (Change Sux)

Honestly, I'm going to stop talking about Starcraft. I played it for a week, found it far from perfect, not sure why people still play it.

I'm not GW's biggest fan. They probably have made a crap ton of mistakes. I don't like how much the prices of thier new releases have risen. Their bullying tactics with smaller companies are terrible.

Hating GW has become a meme at this point. There isn't anything they can do that won't incite rage on the internet at this point.
Matt Ward hate has become a past time that defies human logic.

How do you get off telling me what my own motivations are? What kind of arrogance is that? Look at the thread that was linked to and try to have an open mind.

 adamsouza wrote:
All the fething assasins are BETTER, but the complaint is they are seperate from the GK codex.
GW's motivations aside, the complaint about the Assasins falls under my #1 (More Money).

You can't just ignore GWs motivations when they're one of the primary factors listed by people for quitting the game. GW is progressively giving less and charging more, destroying fluff and being anti-consumer and lawsuit happy. That's not about money, that's about not letting yourself get shafted while you support something you love being trashed and others in the industry being sued by a copyright troll. GW charges Aussies 50% more for the same product, restricts where you can purchase their product from and enforces ridiculous, cumbersome restrictions on vendors. If you want to ignore that that's on you, the rest of us see it for the gak it is and are going to call GW on it. Cutting content to be sold separately in the form of DLC started in video games and PC gamers at least railed hard against it - and we got the publishers to tone it down substantially. If you bend over and accept it GW will happily shaft you 'til you're red raw.

GK Codex has less troops in it, now found elsewhere ? #1

Annoyance at needing to get 3 books, time consuming at needing to flick through 3 books to find things rather than 1, to locate 3 FAQs rather than 1, space restrictions needing to carry 2 books and a tablet for digital only product instead of one book. Same price but less content isn't about price - it's about value. If the price had of gone up but rather than cutting content they added content people would have been happy as hell. Inquisition +GK +Deathwatch +Sisters makes sense and would have been a great book that's very doable. Lots of tiny publications is annoying and designed purely to milk more money from players with no regard of how good the product is for them.

Found another game you rather spend your resources on ? #3 (Bored Now)

If I have the choice of a steak or a sausage and choose the steak it's not because I'm bored of sausages. That's just ridiculous.

Honestly, I'm going to stop talking about Starcraft. I played it for a week, found it far from perfect, not sure why people still play it.

Not talking about it would be a good idea then since you're ignorant of it.

Hating GW has become a meme at this point. There isn't anything they can do that won't incite rage on the internet at this point.

No, there's nothing they DO do that doesn't incite criticism because they've become a parody of the incomepetent short term focused corporation piloted by PHBs.

Yonan, I am not saying that you don't have the right to be annoyed. I am just saying there is a difference between what annoys you and what may be profitable and better for the long term longevity of 40K.

I work in a field where we change products all the time, based on either availability or cost.
Reguardless of the quality of the replacement product, we get complaints about it in the first month.
There is a 90 day trial process for any new product we carry. If at the end of 90 days there are still complaints we will find another suitable replacement.
As of today, we've yet to have to replace ANY product at the end of the 90 day trial based on complaints.

New GK players are not going to care about assasins not being included in the GK codex.
6 months from now, the vast majority of GK players won't either.

 MWHistorian wrote:
How do you get off telling me what my own motivations are? What kind of arrogance is that? Look at the thread that was linked to and try to have an open mind.

1.) I clearly wasn't addressing you, unless your posting under two accounts
2.) I stated how I percieve other people's complaints about edition changes falling into 3 catergories.
3.) FYI, I read that thread before Yonan linked to it, and it helped me form said opinions.
4.) You managed to take insult where there was none, then insult me, and follow it up with asking me to be open minded.

 adamsouza wrote:
Yonan, I am not saying that you don't have the right to be annoyed. I am just saying there is a difference between what annoys you and what may be profitable and better for the long term longevity of 40K.

I work in a field where we change products all the time, based on either availability or cost.
Reguardless of the quality of the replacement product, we get complaints about it in the first month.
There is a 90 day trial process for any new product we carry. If at the end of 90 days there are still complaints we will find another suitable replacement.
As of today, we've yet to have to replace ANY product at the end of the 90 day trial based on complaints.

New GK players are not going to care about assasins not being included in the GK codex.
6 months from now, the vast majority of GK players won't either.

 MWHistorian wrote:
How do you get off telling me what my own motivations are? What kind of arrogance is that? Look at the thread that was linked to and try to have an open mind.

1.) I clearly wasn't addressing you, unless your posting under two accounts
2.) I stated how I percieve other people's complaints about edition changes falling into 3 catergories.
3.) FYI, I read that thread before Yonan linked to it, and it helped me form said opinions.
4.) You managed to take insult where there was none, then insult me, and follow it up with asking me to be open minded.

From this.

People can view their motivations through rose colored glasses, and I'm was being blunt about it.

You're saying what our reasons for leaving GW and ignoring what we're actually saying. I was just being blunt.

 adamsouza wrote:
Yonan, I am not saying that you don't have the right to be annoyed. I am just saying there is a difference between what annoys you and what may be profitable and better for the long term longevity of 40K.

I work in a field where we change products all the time, based on either availability or cost.
Reguardless of the quality of the replacement product, we get complaints about it in the first month.
There is a 90 day trial process for any new product we carry. If at the end of 90 days there are still complaints we will find another suitable replacement.
As of today, we've yet to have to replace ANY product at the end of the 90 day trial based on complaints.

That's all well and good for whoever you work for but the same can't apply to GW as they don't listen to customer feedback. They have no idea if people are still complaining 91 days later or not and given the amount of time between releases its still horribly impractical. People have been complaining about some models for a decade now but things like chaos marine core troops and high elf spearmen and archers still haven't recived updated sculpts.

Not all complaints merit being addressed.

Artistic design choices are highly subjective.

People have been complaining about some models for a decade now but things like chaos marine core troops and high elf spearmen and archers still haven't recived updated sculpts.

Someone at GW either likes those sculpts, or decided they are not profitable enough to resculpt.

And companies don't just deserve to make money because they put out a product.

Ultimately it boils down to this:
There are a lot of complaints here and elsewhere in the wargaming world.
GW seem to be not addressint many, if any.
GWs profits are down while the rest of the market seems to be doing exceptionally well.
They are doing something wrong.

edit: scratch that, cbf

 jonolikespie wrote:
And companies don't just deserve to make money because they put out a product.

Yes

There are a lot of complaints here and elsewhere in the wargaming world.
GW seem to be not addressint many, if any.

Even when they do, it will cause more complaints

7th edition and the new codexes are a response to complaints about 6th edition and all the codexes

GWs profits are down while the rest of the market seems to be doing exceptionally well.

GW outsells every other company in the market, who are themselves doing exceptionally well.

 adamsouza wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
And companies don't just deserve to make money because they put out a product.

Yes

There are a lot of complaints here and elsewhere in the wargaming world.
GW seem to be not addressint many, if any.

Even when they do, it will cause more complaints

7th edition and the new codexes are a response to complaints about 6th edition and all the codexes

GWs profits are down while the rest of the market seems to be doing exceptionally well.

GW outsells every other company in the market, who are themselves doing exceptionally well.

What evidence do you have to say that? Seeing as how they don't communicate with customers and do no market research.

 adamsouza wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
And companies don't just deserve to make money because they put out a product.

Yes

There are a lot of complaints here and elsewhere in the wargaming world.
GW seem to be not addressint many, if any.

Even when they do, it will cause more complaints

7th edition and the new codexes are a response to complaints about 6th edition and all the codexes

GWs profits are down while the rest of the market seems to be doing exceptionally well.

GW outsells every other company in the market, who are themselves doing exceptionally well.

Again though GW ARE SHRINKING RAPIDLY IN A MARKET THAT MAY NEVER HAVE SEEN THIS KIND OF GROWTH BEFORE.
Everything you are saying might make sense if GW where in a strong financial position but they aren't. Yes, for now no one company can match them for sales but no one needs to. GWs revenue from north America last year was in the area of 40-49 million, the wargaming market as a whole was over 125 million. GW makes up closer to q third of the US market than they do half.
Fantasy flight games grew 25% or so last year, and their miniatures division went from 16% to 33% of their total. That suggests x wing doubled in popularity last year.
Corvus Belli had 2 consecutive years of 75% growth and their worst year in the last 6 or so was 'only' 14% growth.

GW hasn't seen more than 3% growth in recent years and suddenly last year their revenue dropped 8% and profits 42%.

At this rate they will be irrelevant in a few years, or outright collapse.

I think Sanctus Reach and Stormclaw give us a pretty good indication of where 40K is headed once all the books and current model range is brought up to 7th.

As a business strategy I think they're trying to move models that aren't considered super-competitive by making a rich, non-super-competitive environment based on self contained campaigns and story driven missions.

Look at the work that would have to go into play-testing every Codex to balance it for competitive play. You'd be severely lengthening your time to market for models, and at the end of the day certain units/combos will always be dominant. GW's response, which they have held onto for several editions now, is that they're a beer and pretzels, non-competitive game, and to follow suit they are making more products to back this stance up.

I think their strategy is solid, I mean as solid as any strategy can be for a vertically integrated company that sells plastic toys to teenagers through adults (notably outside of the key demographic for most toy manufacturers which is the 12 and under crowd) that is publicly traded and also doesn't have a dedicated marketing department.

Sorry adam but you don't get to decide what other peoples motivations are and then claim you are just saying it as it is.

 More Dakka wrote:
I think Sanctus Reach and Stormclaw give us a pretty good indication of where 40K is headed once all the books and current model range is brought up to 7th.

As a business strategy I think they're trying to move models that aren't considered super-competitive by making a rich, non-super-competitive environment based on self contained campaigns and story driven missions.

Look at the work that would have to go into play-testing every Codex to balance it for competitive play. You'd be severely lengthening your time to market for models, and at the end of the day certain units/combos will always be dominant. GW's response, which they have held onto for several editions now, is that they're a beer and pretzels, non-competitive game, and to follow suit they are making more products to back this stance up.

I think their strategy is solid, I mean as solid as any strategy can be for a vertically integrated company that sells plastic toys to teenagers through adults (notably outside of the key demographic for most toy manufacturers which is the 12 and under crowd) that is publicly traded and also doesn't have a dedicated marketing department.

But that's the problem, it isn't working for them. (as evidenced by the last two financial reports) The lack of balance is chasing customers away, partially due to the frustration gross imbalances create.
As for play testing, every other company seems to be able to do it. It's GW's own policy of Iron Curtain secrecy that keeps them from properly play testing.

I don't think we can judge the success of the current course yet. I'm not going to champion GW's business practices, especially given many of their more recent maneuvers. I'm just saying they're moving in a new direction and it will take at least 6+ months to see how it goes, even then it's going to be hard to say since the Sanctus Reach campaign is a fairly small sample.

The reason I think this is their new strategy is that they've admitted to using FW as a testing field for new rules and units, and the success of the Horus Heresy has the hallmarks of the things they seem to be trying with the Sanctus Reach campaign (unique units/formations, story driven missions with self-contained special rules sets etc).

 More Dakka wrote:
As a business strategy I think they're trying to move models that aren't considered super-competitive by making a rich, non-super-competitive environment based on self contained campaigns and story driven missions.

Look at the work that would have to go into play-testing every Codex to balance it for competitive play. You'd be severely lengthening your time to market for models, and at the end of the day certain units/combos will always be dominant. GW's response, which they have held onto for several editions now, is that they're a beer and pretzels, non-competitive game, and to follow suit they are making more products to back this stance up.

I think their strategy is solid, I mean as solid as any strategy can be for a vertically integrated company that sells plastic toys to teenagers through adults (notably outside of the key demographic for most toy manufacturers which is the 12 and under crowd) that is publicly traded and also doesn't have a dedicated marketing department.

I agree with everything you've said.

The most "balanced" edition we've ever had was 3rd edition, and it was balanced by being terribely vanilla.

Considering how well Storm Claw sold, I imaigine we will see more combo sets, with slow moving product and fluffy pamphlet of scenarios, to come.

How well did Storm Claw sell?

An absence of stock =\= massive sales numbers, and I'm not even convinced there was a dearth of stock outside of the panic when the website sold out, and that could have been entirely down to a pitiful allocation.

I mean, sure, it appears to have been well received, but that it sold well is purely assumption.

What makes you think it sold well because people liked the campaign element and not because it was the first place you could buy the mini rulebook people have been clamoring for since 7th was announced?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal makes a good point too, we have seen a lot of limited releases sell out very quickly recently but only have tiny production runs, half of which are allocated to stores.

(Anecdotal I know but on that note there are still 6+ copies of Crusade of Fire around my local area.)

It's been discussed that GW product sales are heavily slanted to around the time of the products release.

If they make it, and then sell out of it in the first month ? That's a win for GW corporate.

They invested time and money in a project, then received an immediate return on the investment, without waste.

Storing unsold stock costs money.
Producing stock that becomes outdated wastes money.

From a corporate point of view, all these limited repacks of existing product, and limited run datacards are pure win.

You have no means of establishing how many units were produced, therefore have no metric for determining how well they sold.

Mini rulebook (which would have surfaced at some point regardless) + existing model sprues + campaign booklet =\= a significant investment of time or money, especially when essentially one's entire creative staff are on salary.

Its not a win if they produce a thousand, sell a thousand and three thousand other people are left wanting one but no stock, or if they produce a thousand, sell 500 and allocate the rest to stores, which barely move any afterwards.

How much better would they be if they spent the money on play testing vs. lawsuits and IP lawyering.

This is only throwing money away. I understand why they do it as they want to protect what is theirs, but it's only theirs because they took it from somewhere else and called it "GW".

I look at other companies like Blizzard/Fantasy Flight and the Old GW - who embrace their player base and their true consumer - the FLGS. If you're not making the folks who carry/commercialize your material happy, how can you satisfy your shareholders?

It just seems the current GW gets very emotionally attached to it's "things" and when you are too emotional, you don't consider long term goals/objectives.

I am a big fan of the Space Wolves book. I think it's one of the best they have put out and the new Fantasy release with Nagash looks epic too.

I'm hoping they build on this and move forward as well as throw some more discounted kits our way (like Stormclaw).

Azreal13 wrote:You have no means of establishing how many units were produced, therefore have no metric for determining how well they sold.

They sold out on the website. Every FLGS I've been to said they can't get any more. That's all I have to go on, and it's good enough for me.

The alternative would be GW hoarding product they could be selling, for no sane reason.

Mini rulebook (which would have surfaced at some point regardless) + existing model sprues + campaign booklet =\= a significant investment of time or money, especially when essentially one's entire creative staff are on salary.

Exactly. In these tough financial times GW leaned on fluff, a repack, a previously unattainable rulebook, and a limited run, all at minial investment to create a product that sold out quickly and simultaneously increased their revenue while eliminating stock from storage.

jonolikespie wrote:Its not a win if they produce a thousand, sell a thousand and three thousand other people are left wanting one but no stock, or if they produce a thousand, sell 500 and allocate the rest to stores, which barely move any afterwards.

Stormclaw was basically 6 boxes of existing models. If they only produced a 1000, and sold them all, they moved 6,000 box sets of minaitures in month they weren't likely to sell anywhere near that quickly otherwise.

What limited run product has GW produced in the last year that's wasting away on shelves unsold ?

Ork Datacards ? Nope, going for nearly $30 on Ebay.
Space Wolves Datacards ? Nope, going for nearly $30 on Ebay
Void Shield Generator ?
Stormclaw ?

About the only limited run thing not selling like hot cakes are the ridiculously priced Collectors editions of the new Codexes.
They are priced soo high GW is profiting on them, even with the remnants in their warehouse.

Moreover, it's proof they're starting to/trying to react to market pressures. Something they have haven't done since they started moving to high-quality plastic over cast-metal boxed sets (3rd ed saw this come in with significant price drops and better quality models).

The new model bundles are further proof that they're moving in this direction. Remember all of the 6th ed bundles that came out with next to no savings? Compare that to all of the bundles that have come out since Sanctus Reach, including Stormclaw.

Now, I don't want to jump the shark here, but I think one of the things that came along with Tom Kirby leaving is that they may have actually shifted their business strategies to a marketing department.

Regarless of what's happening I think the consumers are starting to benefit from it.

Yes they are benefiting from it - we've all picked up much better games like X-Wing, DZC, Deadzone and so on.

Even with Xwing, DZC, and Attack Wing - I still say if BFG had any type of support it would see a major resurgence. Those figs/ships still go for at cost on ebay and I know of 6 players just in our group still moving along.

 More Dakka wrote:
Moreover, it's proof they're starting to/trying to react to market pressures. Something they have haven't done since they started moving to high-quality plastic over cast-metal boxed sets (3rd ed saw this come in with significant price drops and better quality models).

The new model bundles are further proof that they're moving in this direction. Remember all of the 6th ed bundles that came out with next to no savings? Compare that to all of the bundles that have come out since Sanctus Reach, including Stormclaw.

Now, I don't want to jump the shark here, but I think one of the things that came along with Tom Kirby leaving is that they may have actually shifted their business strategies to a marketing department.

Regarless of what's happening I think the consumers are starting to benefit from it.

But the problem is, they don't understand the market, they won't be able to react properly. It's like a medieval doctor trying to cure the plague. He doesn't understand what's going on, so he'll throw some leeches on and pray.

Simply assuming that "they don't understand the market and therefor will fail with their new attempts" is silly.

Sure, the old ways were obviously failing, but with ward and kirby gone, and an obvious shift in tactics both in marketing and management of kits and what comes out, and on how codcies are made (from a mass of crazy rules with little to no possibility to ever balance to more bland yet better balanced codcies)-its clear SOMEONE took their places and is leading things up in a new direction.

Maybe that someone new ISNT that incompetent and actually has a good business plan that is just starting to unfold? maybe the whole "many small different things" we see lately is honestly just the new management doing their research to see just what the audience responds well to in order to formulate their future plans?


Part of the problem of listening to the community, is that the community either have no clue what they want, or that they are never pleased and always will complain (a very human trait)
They cried for better balance, and newer codcies got better balance-now the cry for being too bland.
They wanted more options so malstorm and altar of war were added for alternate gameplay, malstorm is too random, altar too non-symmetrical.
We wanted some big guns-LoW were introduced, now people complain that there ARE big guns.

With many people, especially on the internet, there is jst no pleasing. every possible choice will result in rage, even a non-choice of keeping things the same. so a company cannot really work with internet rage with any level of rationality.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Simply assuming that "they don't understand the market and therefor will fail with their new attempts" is silly.

Unless of course they are failing..

 BoomWolf wrote:
Sure, the old ways were obviously failing, but with ward and kirby gone, and an obvious shift in tactics both in marketing and management of kits and what comes out, and on how codcies are made (from a mass of crazy rules with little to no possibility to ever balance to more bland yet better balanced codcies)-its clear SOMEONE took their places and is leading things up in a new direction.

Maybe that someone new ISNT that incompetent and actually has a good business plan that is just starting to unfold? maybe the whole "many small different things" we see lately is honestly just the new management doing their research to see just what the audience responds well to in order to formulate their future plans?

Kirby isn't gone. Next year he is going to step down as CEO and maintain his position as Chairman of the Board. The only reason he is doing so is because was only 'acting' CEO as being both is illegal in the UK.

You can't assume because he is returning to only being chairman of the board things will change, he will still hold a lot of power, including that to chose his successor.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Part of the problem of listening to the community, is that the community either have no clue what they want, or that they are never pleased and always will complain (a very human trait)
They cried for better balance, and newer codcies got better balance-now the cry for being too bland.
They wanted more options so malstorm and altar of war were added for alternate gameplay, malstorm is too random, altar too non-symmetrical.
We wanted some big guns-LoW were introduced, now people complain that there ARE big guns.

With many people, especially on the internet, there is jst no pleasing. every possible choice will result in rage, even a non-choice of keeping things the same. so a company cannot really work with internet rage with any level of rationality.

GW failed spectacularly with the execution of each of those examples and frankly your entire premise is flawed from the get go because you're right, no one can please everyone, but other companies are all doing a very good job of pleasing the vast majority.
The kind of rage, sky is falling panic and confusion you see accompanying a GW release is a uniquely GW experience.

I can see them redoing the 6th edition books, getting rid of ll the artwork and adding lords of war.

As its such a quick turn around we might see some of the older kits redone like csm and eldar bikes

Jono covered that pretty well.

Its pretty tiring seeing the arguments along the lines of 'you asked for this, and you got it, yet you complain', because it completely misses out on why people are still complaining. The codices argument is shaky at best.

Yes, we wanted better balanced codices. The current ones are better balanced, but they still have a long way to go to being on the level other companies are achieving. Further, the issues people have with them is that while they may be more balanced, they cut a lot stuff from them; units, fluff, and artwork, while retaining a very high cost.

People aren't just complaining because they like to or they're hard to please. You're going to please every single person, but you can do a far sight better than what GW is doing currently.

Also, seriously, who was complaining about not being to use superheavies in standard games? People had Apoc for that, and it worked perfectly.

Every other miniatures company solicits feedback from the community is some form or another. Oddly enough, they all seem to have a far higher satisfaction among customers, and are enjoying significant growth.

Updating the SOBs would be a huge boon. last time sisters got a new dex, nerdy girls weren't as popular/socially acceptable as they are now. Aside from that there are plenty of dudes who straight up just want to play an all female army, whether it be because the lore is cool, the possibility for shiny new models is cool, or maybe they think the boobplate is cool, WHO CARES?! letting a codex like that go defunct is a waste of a market that they could really tap in to

Hahaha... what surprises me the most in what i read since my last post is "the 3rd an improvement"... w..w..w..what?!

I can agree with a lot i read here, both sides of the story.
One one hand GW is a business, on the other hand wargamers want to be hapy.

But what startles me is that 3rd edition is called an improvement...
The only time i actually stopped playing 40k, which never happened before and after.

It was the only horrible edition ever; that was even acknowledged and the reason the "trial rules project" started 1,5 years later that lead to (mostly became) 4th edition.
These trial rules were even used in tournaments because 3rd was so inbalanced.

I understood what GW wanted to do with 3rd, but they succeeded in 4th, not in 3rd.

Other editions are more a matter of taste, not of what is or was better. There are balance faults in all of them and if not in them, then in de codexes.
Rogue Trader was a different type of game (and balanced by players), but a good one. 2nd was a way to get a bit of structure (and less random), the introduction of the codex.

Since the trial rules of 3rd and 4th edition it's another type of game which i like.

But not the 3rd... not the 3rd... ;-)

According to something posted in one of the Dakka Discussions threads a few weeks ago (for the life of me I can't remember which) 3rd ed was all set out and ready to go. It was a streamlined, cleaned up version of 2nd, still very much a skirmish game.

Then the suits said no, they need to push for larger armies, at the last minute and Rick Priestly had to pull out a homebrew 15mm WWII ruleset he had, dust it off and force it to suit 40k.

That would not surprise me.

"Rogue Trader" Rick was/is a more hardcore game developer that has written more rulesets which did what they had to do and did it well.

But since 3rd his involvement in rulesets and codexes was already getting less and less anyway.
Warmaster was more his subject in those days.
Even played WM against him once at a Euro-Get-Together and started by thanking him 40k, which (together with the 1st edition Ork miniatures) got me into the hobby.

 adamsouza wrote:
GW outsells every other company in the market, who are themselves doing exceptionally well.

And Wang Computer Corporation used to outsell (in revenues) all the pesky word processing software companies...

Digital Equipment outsold all the micro-computer manufacturers....

Kodak outsold all the film manufacturers...

If history has taught anything in business it is this - past success does not guarantee future success.