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 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

That is because it is badly updated and twice as expensive as before, which is not what people want. I was trying to avoid negativity but we have to face the facts about the situation.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

The problem isn't about complaining about having everything updated, its a question on what will GW do now and will it be enough to save them financially. They already fired their big guns and they have no big things left. So, what now?

They will make new molded plastic models and make new rules for them so people have more stuff to buy...

They have been releasing stuff over and over for years now adding a little here and there. Why would they stop something that has been working for 7 editions now?

Well, it'll be a while until those last three codexes are updated.

When they are, you can only hope they'll chill and slow down the release schedule, maybe focus a little on Fantasy. The release schedule has been feeling a little rushed, of late. I'd also expect some dataslates/supplements. Hopefully something with Marbo in it.

RJCarrot wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

The problem isn't about complaining about having everything updated, its a question on what will GW do now and will it be enough to save them financially. They already fired their big guns and they have no big things left. So, what now?

They will make new molded plastic models and make new rules for them so people have more stuff to buy...

They have been releasing stuff over and over for years now adding a little here and there. Why would they stop something that has been working for 7 editions now?

Because the financial report indicates that it's not working.

 MWHistorian wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

The problem isn't about complaining about having everything updated, its a question on what will GW do now and will it be enough to save them financially. They already fired their big guns and they have no big things left. So, what now?

They will make new molded plastic models and make new rules for them so people have more stuff to buy...

They have been releasing stuff over and over for years now adding a little here and there. Why would they stop something that has been working for 7 editions now?

Because the financial report indicates that it's not working.

Correlation != Causation.

Maybe GW just reboots WarhammerFantasyBattles with the upcoming "undead" release... and the style there is closer to comics, to current onlineMMORPG.
They could try to run 40k on cruise-control because "our Hobby is to buy the product they graciously offer" ?

Black Library has begun to follow GW's policy of less product for more. Lots of snippets, lots of limited edition.
The main line is also filled with less effort invested.
7th Edition 40k seems like GW in full retreat mode.IMO. Make money as long as possible. Then get off before the keel comes up and the ship takes the final dive down.

40k : set to autorun. ( small releases and a few major ones ). Boxed sets like stormclaw don't need more than a single character to add "value"...
WHFB : attempt to jump on the train of thought: similar to game-graphics = interest generated in a generation of electronic devices eating into the TT market.
( Try to reboot Fantasy. If it fails..... drop miniatures and focus on selling licenses. )
This could work for a year or two. GW plans won't go further than 24 months, yes ?

Would not expect any supplement or dataslates or relaease we want.
GW added big kits to WHFB and copied this idea to 40k. Until everyone has them, nothing new to see.
Gaps in codices weren't filled with figures but closed completly. A miniatures company that does not provide..

Only 7th ed Necrons , BA , DE are a safe bet. Crons got a few bits in the rulebook and BA are easy cause Space Marines. DE however...

or I am totally wrong and we get weekly releases of SM chapters ( 1k to go ) and IG Regiments ( billions..of them ).

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

That is because it is badly updated and twice as expensive as before, which is not what people want. I was trying to avoid negativity but we have to face the facts about the situation.

Pricing aside I really wish dakka would give the whole "the new releases are objectively bad" angle a rest. There are many people who - for the most part - have found the new books to be great. It's entirely subjective.

 Las wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Las wrote:
It's funny, a completely updated edition has been something the community has been asking for for years and now that it's almost a reality people are freaking out.

That is because it is badly updated and twice as expensive as before, which is not what people want. I was trying to avoid negativity but we have to face the facts about the situation.

Pricing aside I really wish dakka would give the whole "the new releases are objectively bad" angle a rest. There are many people who - for the most part - have found the new books to be great. It's entirely subjective.

Last time that got bought up i was simply told that I had low standards. I don't get the hate over the new books, my friends and I all think they're a much bigger improvement on the softbacks.

It's not entirely subjective.

You can count the typos in a codex to get an objective rating of how well it has been done. The new codexes are not always substantially worse than the old ones on typo count (the 4th edition Tau codex was full of howlers) but they cost twice as much and ought to be a lot better.

You can also check the units that have been put into datasheets and formations that have to be purchased separately to your double cost codex, or just removed entirely from the game (e.g. Mycetic Spore Pod).

If people do not care about these objective factors that show the decline in quality that is fine, but please do not blame people for noticing them and complaining about them.

I don't think removing half the options out of a dex and then charging more of it is really subjective. That's an objectively worse value.

However this is all getting off the topic, so I suggest we drop it and get back to the core points.

I have been worried what GW will do after publishing all of the updated codexes in 3 years rather than over 10 (i.e. never.)

Clearly the formations, datasheets and "micro" codexes like Knight Titans will continue, but those will only satisfy the declining number of people who like the current state of the game, which may not be enough to stem the ebbing tide of sales. After all, this tactic has been in effect for 18 months and basically has failed as far as the evidence shows.

I really hope for some new games.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's not entirely subjective.

You can count the typos in a codex to get an objective rating of how well it has been done. The new codexes are not always substantially worse than the old ones on typo count (the 4th edition Tau codex was full of howlers) but they cost twice as much and ought to be a lot better.

You can also check the units that have been put into datasheets and formations that have to be purchased separately to your double cost codex, or just removed entirely from the game (e.g. Mycetic Spore Pod).

If people do not care about these objective factors that show the decline in quality that is fine, but please do not blame people for noticing them and complaining about them.

You've used some very spurious criteria for objectivity in an inherently subjective media. I doubt that many consumers of hobby products give a damn about miss-prints or how many new units vs how many were cut. Or at least, they aren't their main criteria.

I could use the same logic and say that they contain an infinitely higher amount of colour art - therefore are objectively infinitely superior, and worth infinitely as much! But that would be just as absurd.

The number of typos is neither spurious nor subjective. The new codexes do not contain an infinitely higher amount of colour art. The value of colour over mono art is debatable, but not necessarily subjective,

I notice you seem to be unwilling to address the loss of units into additional for purchase publications. Purely subjective?

Please get back on the topic.

Full sisters book.
Full range of SoB models

Inquisition/Stormtrooper book.
Plastic Inquisitors and henchmen.

Eldar book to level out the balance issues- nerf serpent shield, Jetbike squads need to be 5 or more when bought to gain ObSecured, fix Howling Banshees.
Updated Jetbikes, plastic aspect warriors, plastic avatar

Split out Harlequins to their own supplement
Plastic kits

Tau book- bump price for Ion Accelerator and Interceptor wargear a tad. Add new vespid and kroot options.
Plastic Kroot hounds/shapers/krootox. Plastic vespid.

Daemons- fix internal balance- drop Horrors squads to ML1, less psyker levels for most heralds and DPs. Bring back unmarked as an option.
Plastic Greater Daemons/characters. Plastic khorne hounds/kharnak. Plastic Fiends of Slaanesh, Beasts of Nurgle, and Furies/new generic daemon

CSM- Fix internal balance.
Plastic Kits for cult marines, Havocs, Chosen, Obliterators/mutilators

Orks: Some balance tweaks. Kits for Buggies/Trakks, Tank bustas, kommandos

Space Marines- Codex is fine. Kits for Techmarine/Thunderfire cannon, Plastic terminator characters, update Dreadnought, Predator, Razorback kits to have more of the weapon options. Predator especially to have the more durable sponson design of the Baal pred. Maybe Plastic Legion of the Damned + character. Maybe redo ol terminators/assault terminators to be in single kit like wolf guard termies.

Nids- rebalance.
Plastic Broodlord. Plastic Zoanthrope/Venomthrope/Doom. Plastic Biovore/Pyrovore. Plastic Lictor/Deathleper.

Blood Angels- bring to 7th standards.
Plastic Terminator kit. Redone Assault marine squad kit (like new vanguard, with less TH/SS and Lightnin claws and more basic power weapons like Mauls and spears)

Dark Eldar- Need a major rules revamp. They are glass cannons heavy on the glass, and assault units in open topped paper thin transports. Wych cult especially needs a points drop, or dodge to be a normal Inv save (say 5++, 4++ in CC). Move Wracks to Troops to let coven be equal to the other 2 branches. Drop the free missiles for the Razorwing, or give them to the void raven, and give the void raven Strafing run to make it a more sutible bomber.
Plastic Wracks/haemonculus, Grotesques, HQ choices!, Incubi/Drazhar, Mandrakes/Decapitator. Finally release the Void Raven! Plastic court of the archon, beast pack models.

Necrons- Make Tesla not work on Snapfire. Nerf the Tran C'Tan. weaken MSS so they aren't stupid in challenges. Buff Living Metal (maybe have it give IWND and -1 on the pen chart?) Give Praetorians a 2+ save base. Bring back Pariahs as an option for the royal court that have adamantium will and are bad to psykers.
Plastic Royal Court kit, Updated Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer/Des Lord. Plastic Flayed Ones.

That is all before new units.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

ShaneTB wrote:
We were talking about this at the weekend. There's an internal reason for this quick release scale. It's clear they want everything to be done and on a level to make way for...whatever their new strategy is.

I agree 100%. We don't know their reason for the drive to get everything up to date, but there is a reason and a plan.

The reason for the release schedule is to drive sales. New edition, new books, new models. Its not part of some big plan to surprise us with something great. Its an attempt to boost their plummeting sales. Why do you think kits from the same codex are released over a 2-3 week period? Because its a lot easier to get people to spend $100 a week for three weeks in a row, than it is to get them to spend $300 in one purchase.

Dont kid yourselves, the release schedule is a marketing strategy, nothing more. The fact that it will result in all armies being up to date is inconsequential to GW management.

If their sole motivation is to drive sales then why no new Grey Knights models? GKs are lacking in fast attack. Fluff or not they would have sold a ton of Grey Knights on bikes with Nemesis Lances. Three Grey Knights on bikes for $60 - $75? People would have bitched about the price and bought every one GW could crank out. Grey Knights lack long range anti tank. Why no new Dreadnaught with dual twin-linked lascannons and a missle pod, again they would have sold a lot of them.

The fact that no models were released when they could have sold a lot of them weakens your argument. As far as models go, I predict that Necrons, also an army with a very current model range, will get no more than two new units, but I'd bet it's only one new model. Dark Eldar are the same, two, maybe three new models at best. I think Blood Angels stand to get the most in terms of new models, along the lines of the Dark Angels release. New Death Company Terminators, new fliers, maybe a new Predator kit.

So: since no fast attack model was released for GK =the release schedule isnt sales driven. Flawless logic

They're still sitting on a gold mine of supplement material at this point. Supplements for major factions like Biel-tan, Saim-han, Nurgle, Khorne, Bad Moonz, etc.

Beyond that, faction specific terrain and fortifications would be money as well.

Of course, just because you're sitting on a gold mine doesn't mean you're aware of it - it just means you're sitting.

Matt Ward: >Gee, we are all finished with the 40k codices! What are we now going to do tonight, Tom?
Tom Kirby: <The same thing we do every night, Matt, try to create more Space Marines!!!>

What makes you guys think this codex updating has come full circle?

7th edition codexes might be the same size, page number and hardback as 6th edition codexes are, but for all intents and purposes, they have nothing else in common.

Color photography instead of artwork; no armylist section; points costs rolled into the bestiarum, formations, lord of war and tactical objective rules...no, I wouldnt be surprised if Codex: Chaos Daemons or CSM came out early next year.

Hell, I'm sure we'll have a 7th edition Space marine codex by late 2015

After all, the 4th edition and 5th edition space marine codexes also look very similar in terms of size, layout (outside) etc., only the silhouettes got replaced with a proper bestiarum including actual B6W artwork and far longer descriptions and the armylist section was created.

Tyranids 2015: this time try to not feth it up.

 kronk wrote:
To the OP: that's actually a fair question. When they're all caught up, then what?

Black Templar supplement.

Death Guard supplement.

Bad Moons supplement.

Then, I dunno.

How can you forget:

Kranken supplement.

Behemoth supplement.

By the time they're caught up, it'll be a ripe moment for a new Space Marine codex, and then the process can begin all over again!

...What, you didn't think this release rate had anything to do with completion did you? Oh no, my good friend, the money is books! Books that can be invalidated and replaced with minimal investment, acting as something consumers are obligated to buy (if they want to stay current with all of their other gaming friends, that is).

Bojazz wrote:
What about BROWN space marines though?

RAINBOW MARINES!

They had those back in the day. The Rainbow Warriors Chapter.

Come on plastic Thunderhawk kits.

MW - GK is, from some angles, an outlier. It was always a weird codex, as it was grey knights in theory, in practice it was GK, with some other Inquisition orders in there, some that you would NOT see GK alongside (Daemonhosts? noone remember the outcry there?)

So splitting it out into the sensible divisions makes sense from a composition stand point, and means you dont have to update everything if you need to adjust assassins, for example.

This release is only "lazy" if you ignore that.

Sand.zzz - actually it was pointing out that your assumption, that releases ARE model-sales driven, is belied by GK. Not that they are NOT model sales driven, but that your assumption that they ARE is disproven.

sand.zzz wrote:


So: since no fast attack model was released for GK =the release schedule isnt sales driven. Flawless logic

Not even close to what I said.

 Sir Arun wrote:
What makes you guys think this codex updating has come full circle?

7th edition codexes might be the same size, page number and hardback as 6th edition codexes are, but for all intents and purposes, they have nothing else in common.

Color photography instead of artwork; no armylist section; points costs rolled into the bestiarum, formations, lord of war and tactical objective rules...no, I wouldnt be surprised if Codex: Chaos Daemons or CSM came out early next year.

Hell, I'm sure we'll have a 7th edition Space marine codex by late 2015

After all, the 4th edition and 5th edition space marine codexes also look very similar in terms of size, layout (outside) etc., only the silhouettes got replaced with a proper bestiarum including actual B6W artwork and far longer descriptions and the armylist section was created.

I think if GW are going to start redoing the 6th edition codices they are shooting themselves in the foot. Their rule books are already really expensive, if they are going to replace them every 2 and a half years the value is going to drop even more. The business practice of milking your remaining customers more as more of them leave is not sustainable in wargaming, especially since their market share and revenue has been dropping.

When GW finishes the last few codicies they'll release 8th ed and start all over again.

But that's okay, because GW is a business: that means they're supposed to scalp as much money as they can off cheap plastic, wonky rules and planned obsolescence. And as we all know, the GW hobby is buying as much of it as you can.

Yaaay!

Bring back the Templars!

My guess is they will focus on Fantasy in 2015 with the occasional new model and Dataslate for 40K.

Also, is there not a new Hobbit Sequel out next year ? I imagine White Drawf will be flooded with Hobbit Releases.