Has anyone noticed any changes in the fluff from what was in the 5th edition codex? Draigo still carves a name into Mortarion's heart but there's no mention of the GK killing SoB for extra purity powers in the Bloodtide Returns entry.
They just mind wiped anyone who has knowledge about the bloodtide. It happened and theres no changing it.
That aside, I am glad thats gone from the books. For all the hate GKs got (mary sue, matt ward etc...) I really didnt mind except for the whole Khornate Knight thing.
Heavens forbid that an Imperial warrior would actually do something like "the ends justify the means".
I mean, it's not like this is how the Imperium works in general, or anything.
Maybe if there was some precedence, something it could be related to, it would be better. I mean, when I read 40K books, a lot of the times they mention things that I've never heard of and they don't really try to explain it, but that's okay because I can make a satisfying guess. But when the purest of the pure need extra pure blood to protect their purity, it seems a bit, uh, unnecessary. It's like bolting sheet metal to a tank.
When I read of Grey Knight killing witnesses, I just think "hey, it's grim dark and they're playing it up". When they bath in the blood of their allies, something is wrong.
Heavens forbid that an Imperial warrior would actually do something like "the ends justify the means".
I mean, it's not like this is how the Imperium works in general, or anything.
Maybe if there was some precedence, something it could be related to, it would be better. I mean, when I read 40K books, a lot of the times they mention things that I've never heard of and they don't really try to explain it, but that's okay because I can make a satisfying guess. But when the purest of the pure need extra pure blood to protect their purity, it seems a bit, uh, unnecessary. It's like bolting sheet metal to a tank.
When I read of Grey Knight killing witnesses, I just think "hey, it's grim dark and they're playing it up". When they bath in the blood of their allies, something is wrong.
There is precedent for bolting sheet metal to a tanl; it gives it extra protection. Not much but it does. In the Horus Heresy the Mk V armour had sheets of plasteel and other lesser materials bonded onto the ceramite and adamantium to reinforce the armour vs Boltgun rounds. Plasteel isn't proof against bolters but it certainly slows them down enough to survive the shots.
The fluff you refer to is heavily exaggerated. The GK don't "bathe" in it. Its not like them lie in a puddle making blood angels (no joke intended). They use it to make a talisman of purity and annoint their armour. This could be as simple as mixing with some holy oil or blessing the blood or an actual talisman, and marking their armour with a sigil or hand wave. Stuff like that has been done for thousands of years in real life.
And what's this business about "Khornate Knights?" Because they use blood? So? Why does that make them Khornate?
Blame 1d4chan but The reference just stuck and is easier to reference
My issue with that whole thing is why kill the sisters to use their blood for extra purity protection when:
A: Fluff says GK is the purest of the pure without anyone succumbing to chaos ever. SoB had an instance of sisters going chaos.
B: If all they needed was some blood to annoint talismans of purity, did they really need to kill ALL of the survivors? Why not just use a portion of their blood like from a knife cut? Does it have to be necessarily 1 human body's worth of blood = 1 talisman? There's no fluff I could find that says the GK uses blood sacrifices to annoint their armour in the first place.
A more sensible situation would be the GK killing the sisters just because they saw the whole bloodtide. It would still be grimdark, but nothing unusual at all. They've tried it with the first war of armageddon by attempting to euthanize/mind warp/kill the survivors of the war, and would have completed it if it werent for the Space Wolves.
Blame 1d4chan but The reference just stuck and is easier to reference
My issue with that whole thing is why kill the sisters to use their blood for extra purity protection when:
A: Fluff says GK is the purest of the pure without anyone succumbing to chaos ever. SoB had an instance of sisters going chaos.
B: If all they needed was some blood to annoint talismans of purity, did they really need to kill ALL of the survivors? Why not just use a portion of their blood like from a knife cut? Does it have to be necessarily 1 human body's worth of blood = 1 talisman? There's no fluff I could find that says the GK uses blood sacrifices to annoint their armour in the first place.
A more sensible situation would be the GK killing the sisters just because they saw the whole bloodtide. It would still be grimdark, but nothing unusual at all. They've tried it with the first war of armageddon by attempting to euthanize/mind warp/kill the survivors of the war, and would have completed it if it werent for the Space Wolves.
The fluff doesn't say that. It says that none have ever fallen. Not that they can't, but that they haven't.
This does both at once. They make sure there are no witnesses and get the blood they need. As for that fluff? You're reading it. Its the first instance but that doesn't make it wrong. If you recall what i said I said that in real life history, blood of an innocent has been associated with protection against the unholy in many religions for hundreds of years. This also ties into the killing of the SOB. If they had willingly gave up their blood and only a small bit it might not have worked. It is logical to assume that in order for it to work they needed the split blood of innocents.
Heavens forbid that an Imperial warrior would actually do something like "the ends justify the means".
I mean, it's not like this is how the Imperium works in general, or anything.
Maybe if there was some precedence, something it could be related to, it would be better. I mean, when I read 40K books, a lot of the times they mention things that I've never heard of and they don't really try to explain it, but that's okay because I can make a satisfying guess. But when the purest of the pure need extra pure blood to protect their purity, it seems a bit, uh, unnecessary. It's like bolting sheet metal to a tank.
When I read of Grey Knight killing witnesses, I just think "hey, it's grim dark and they're playing it up". When they bath in the blood of their allies, something is wrong.
The GK have always, always, ALWAYS used the blackest of magics and the darkest of sorceries to do what they do and be what they are. These are not Boy Scouts in power armor. No, these are all, each and every one, potent psykers with mastery of the Immaterium, steeped in the ancient lores of the Daemon, in all its many guises, armed with the tools of sorcery, warfare, and faith, to combat the Darkness Conceptual.
They maintain purity through these actions. If you want to apply a bit of Christian mythology to it, it is the blood of the innocent that washes away sins.
n0t_u wrote:Wouldn't the GKs own blood inside them work in a way?
What might make some fans uncomfortable is that, perhaps, the GKs are less pure than the Sisters, and thus need the blood of the latter as paraphernalia.
Think about it. Grey Knights are all psykers, which is potential weakness #1 - that which makes them stronger simultaneously makes them a more tempting target, as their souls "burn brighter" and the doorway to the Warp works both ways. The Grey Knights are also burdened by the memories of their past, for unlike the Battle Sisters, they are no "blank slates" indoctrinated from birth, but teenagers recruited in a similar way to any other Space Marine Chapter in the Imperium, just with even more tests designed to sift out those deemed too weak in mind to join the ranks of the Knights. And lastly, the Grey Knights are compromised by their very own actions in service to the Ordo Malleus, as it stands to reason that the GKs are involved in quite a few massacres committed on loyal Imperial troops.
In contrast, the Sororitas are indeed "more innocent" (and the original source did say "blood of the innocent"), simply because they don't know any better.
Just to illustrate, I think this excerpt from a short story by Ben Counter explained the differences in thinking between a Marine and a Sister nicely:
"What curiously small creatures you are to present such a thorn in my side." The words roared and rumbled through the air, thick with dark amusement. "What little bundles of ignorant flesh. I am Parmenides, called the Vile, chosen Prince of Nurgle. I am the virus which the Plague God sends to infect your mortal worlds. I am the festering in your wounded empire. Do creatures as insignificant as yourselves have names too, I wonder?"
"Sergeant Castus of the Ultramarines, Second Company", the Marine replied in a defiant voice, as if he were trying to impress the daemon prince.
The horrific gaze turned to Aescarion, questioning.
"I would not give you my name, though it cost my soul", the Battle Sister snarled, and she gripped her axe tighter.
"Such a shame", Parmenides replied. "But the girl I can understand. Her mind is most infertile. What has she ever questioned? They teach her and she believes."
tl;dr: Marines are "too independent", and this extends to the Grey Knights. Whilst a potential boon in ordinary combat, it would also make it potentially more difficult to resist Chaos, as any bit of doubt in one's mind further weakens the "morale shield" of one's soul.
The way the Grey Knights are dealing with this is simple: Knowledge of the enemy's weapons, and fighting fire with fire. By using their arcane understanding of sorcery, they manage to eliminate their innate weaknesses entirely. Most of the time, it's sufficient to use various wards and sigils or whatever. Sometimes, more drastic measures have to be taken. Such as a blood sacrifice.
Grimdark.
Much of this obviously depends on interpretation, but all in all, I think this makes a whole lot more sense. Because frankly I don't see why the GKs should be better than the Primarchs otherwise.
I won't deny that I'm biased though - both because this makes the Sisters' involvement in the massacre something to actually be proud of as an SoB player (reinforcing the "purity bonus" of the army), and because I like to find possible explanations for alleged contradictions in GW's material (call it a fun mental exercise), as I like consistency.
The Grey Knights are also burdened by the memories of their past, for unlike the Battle Sisters, they are no "blank slates" indoctrinated from birth,
actually step one of creating a grey knight is to mind wipe them. they are indeed a blank slate
They still have memories of the past, just inaccessible. SOB are raised from birth or orphanage to embrace the Emperor. They have literally never known different. GK are recruited from Black Ships and the end of a firing squad's muzzles and everything else. They have known different at one point.
As shown in numerous sources, mind-wiping is rarely 100% effective (unless it turns them into a mindless vegetable). The fact remains, however, that the GK have a past, either as psychic humans before being selected for the Chapter, or as trainees before taking to the field as a fully-fledged Grey Knight. The indoctrination of Space Marines, of any Chapter, while considerable, is not to the same extent as the Sisters.
BrianDavion wrote:actually step one of creating a grey knight is to mind wipe them. they are indeed a blank slate
Is this from the new Codex? Because I couldn't find anything like that in previous GW books. On the contrary, the 5E 'dex mentioned that they recruit from feral worlds specifically because the barbarians there have already developed a "mental toughness" as part of their lifestyle.
Needless to say, IF they were mindwiped, this mental toughness would be erased together with any other bits and pieces of their personality and memories, so ...
BrianDavion wrote:actually step one of creating a grey knight is to mind wipe them. they are indeed a blank slate
Is this from the new Codex? Because I couldn't find anything like that in previous GW books. On the contrary, the 5E 'dex mentioned that they recruit from feral worlds specifically because the barbarians there have already developed a "mental toughness" as part of their lifestyle.
Needless to say, IF they were mindwiped, this mental toughness would be erased together with any other bits and pieces of their personality and memories, so ...
It is part of the recent Emperors Gift novel - not sure if its in the Codex?
BrianDavion wrote:actually step one of creating a grey knight is to mind wipe them. they are indeed a blank slate
Is this from the new Codex? Because I couldn't find anything like that in previous GW books. On the contrary, the 5E 'dex mentioned that they recruit from feral worlds specifically because the barbarians there have already developed a "mental toughness" as part of their lifestyle.
Needless to say, IF they were mindwiped, this mental toughness would be erased together with any other bits and pieces of their personality and memories, so ...
5th Ed Codex. The other Space Marines certainly recruit from Deathworlds. GK recruit very differently.
They recruit by sending out old and crippled Gk. They have no longer the ability to fight but can perform administrative roles such as recruitment. They can get aboard Black Ships and recruit from their, recruit from other Chapter's pool of aspirants (some such as the Silver Skulls even set aside potentials for the GK and notify Chapter 666 of them) and even from rogue psyker children wandering the streets of a Hive. The recruiters do an initial screening to see if the potential has enough talent and control to be considered to become a Space Marine, and then a GK. If they were recruiting for another Chapter mention that the aspirant is/is not suitable for space marine gene-seed while they are in there.
They then bring them back to the Chapter where the Librarians properly test their mental and spiritual fortitude. To the limit.
The few dozen that pass, if that, then get a mindwipe to lock off their memories but they still have the same mental and psychic toughness. They are given a new name from the GK name book, each name linked to a specific Daemon's True Name. They are indoctrinated into GK culture and then put through their paces as Neophytes. They are put through many trials, tested on their physical prowess as all Space Marines are by the Brotherhood Champions, their tactical acumen by the Captains, their leadership capabilities by the Grand Masters, their intellect and psychic strength by the Librarians, their courage by the Paladins and given a thorough biological examination by the Apothecaries and examined as a potential Apothecary, tested on their technological affinity by Techmarines. They are taught to drive and plot each and every one of the Chapter's Vehicles, trained in all weaponry, from Swords, Halberds and Falchions to Hammers and Staves, to Stormbolters, Psycannons, Psilincers and Incinerators. They are trained to fight in both Power Armour and Terminator Armour, using Personal Teleporters and the very very best are then given a chance to try Dreadknight piloting, but there is no margin of error and the chances are they will only pilot one if no other pilots are available.They are set upon one last trial after all of that. If they survive, which according to the Codex, only 1 in a million in a million do, then and only then are they called a Grey Knight.
Thing is, I just read that paragraph, and it doesn't mention mindwipes. The only thing that could refer to it would be the "psycho-surgery" - but again, if they'd wipe their personalities and memories, it wouldn't make sense that the GKs are looking specifically for recruits whose minds are already toughened.
My mistake, there is no mindwipe. They are however, broken down and names removed until training is complete. Says so in the grey box on page 6 of the 5th ed Codex.
That's a rather different thing, though. Apart from the name-change, breaking someone down and rebuilding them into what you desire them to be is a fundamental part of all military training.
The Grey Knights are also burdened by the memories of their past, for unlike the Battle Sisters, they are no "blank slates" indoctrinated from birth,
actually step one of creating a grey knight is to mind wipe them. they are indeed a blank slate
They still have memories of the past, just inaccessible. SOB are raised from birth or orphanage to embrace the Emperor. They have literally never known different. GK are recruited from Black Ships and the end of a firing squad's muzzles and everything else. They have known different at one point.
Just to interject: all Sisters are orphans of Imperial Servants (at least ones found free of taint because those kids who aren't found to be free of the taint of chaos are likely tossed into a large bonfire after being shot just to make sure). They're drawn from the Schola much like Storm Troopers and Commissars are. They're just chosen for being exceptionally faithful to the Emperor (and of course female), and that Faith is reinforced to the point that they'll push through the most lethal wounds to fight in his name. For Sisters there is only one kind of belief: zealous belief.
Psienesis wrote: That's a rather different thing, though. Apart from the name-change, breaking someone down and rebuilding them into what you desire them to be is a fundamental part of all military training.
he missed an important part of that passage though. the Passage reads
"..In any case, once a Grey Knights Identity has been broken down and rebuilt during training, he is unlikely to remember his past"
that is suggestive that if they're not mind wiped they're at least subjected to some pretty heavy brainwashing
Is anyone in any of these elite forces of the Imperium not subject to heavy brainwashing?
Pretty sure the =I= has places on street-corners throughout the Imperium where, for an extra $10 at the pump, you can go through the automated brainwash-and-indoctrination machine they have off to the side there.
Psienesis wrote: Is anyone in any of these elite forces of the Imperium not subject to heavy brainwashing?
Pretty sure the =I= has places on street-corners throughout the Imperium where, for an extra $10 at the pump, you can go through the automated brainwash-and-indoctrination machine they have off to the side there.
Nah, The =I= doesn't have time for that. Besides, the Ecclesiarchy does a great job inspiring blind zealotry and faith in the Emperor wherever it goes.
BrianDavion wrote:"..In any case, once a Grey Knights Identity has been broken down and rebuilt during training, he is unlikely to remember his past"
Deadshot wrote:the grey box on page 6 of the 5th ed Codex
Thanks, this is indeed something I've missed
That said ... "unlikely". Personally, I could easily imagine the GKs committing to blood rituals to protect themselves if there's a risk, no matter how small, because they can't afford to take it. Maybe it wouldn't even have been necessary to sacrifice the Sisters, but they can't know it beforehand. What matters is that they are not invulnerable, so they have to take precautions. The wards and sigils are one step (already hinting at their minds and bodies not being enough by themselves), but sometimes, when faced with extraordinarily dangerous incursions, you just have to make sure.
ClockworkZion wrote:So not always from birth, but always an orphan.
Nah, it does indeed say "from infancy" in codex fluff (online proof here on GW's website).
Perhaps that is one of the major differences between them and Commissars or STs. And a reason for why they find it difficult to replace their casualties, and are slow to expand their numbers.
I noticed a number of Black Libary novel authors not sticking to this, though. So it depends on where you look.
ClockworkZion wrote:So not always from birth, but always an orphan.
Nah, it does indeed say "from infancy" in codex fluff (online proof here on GW's website).
Perhaps that is one of the major differences between them and Commissars or STs. And a reason for why they find it difficult to replace their casualties, and are slow to expand their numbers.
I noticed a number of Black Libary novel authors not sticking to this, though. So it depends on where you look.
I think the problem is more that GW keeps making VERY small changes to how Sisters are chosen. Every codex tweaks it just a little and the changes are completely unneeded. They just need to pick one and stick with it. At this rate I half expect the next codex to say they're left as infants on the steps of Ecclesiarchal churches and screened/raised and then chosen from there and sent off for training.
ClockworkZion wrote:I think the problem is more that GW keeps making VERY small changes to how Sisters are chosen. Every codex tweaks it just a little and the changes are completely unneeded. They just need to pick one and stick with it. At this rate I half expect the next codex to say they're left as infants on the steps of Ecclesiarchal churches and screened/raised and then chosen from there and sent off for training.
How so? I've never known it to be different.
"The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving, they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity." -- WD #211, 1997, before their very first codex
ClockworkZion wrote:I think the problem is more that GW keeps making VERY small changes to how Sisters are chosen. Every codex tweaks it just a little and the changes are completely unneeded. They just need to pick one and stick with it. At this rate I half expect the next codex to say they're left as infants on the steps of Ecclesiarchal churches and screened/raised and then chosen from there and sent off for training.
How so? I've never known it to be different.
"The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving, they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity." -- WD #211, 1997, before their very first codex
Which didn't show up in 2nd, 3rd or 5th. It changes slightly from them being orphans, to orphans of Imperial Servants to orphans to those who are important to the Imprerium (it might even say Nobility, I'm a touch foggy on that at the moment)....ect. They are either not good at sticking with one complete method of choosing Sisters (like how they have for Marines), or the rules vary from Schola to Schola and they should say so and make it a non-issue.
Ehm... the origins of Space Marines has changed a couple times since RT, and is further complicated by various novels that have grown men being accepted into Chapters and transformed into Marines during the Heresy.
ClockworkZion wrote:Which didn't show up in 2nd, 3rd or 5th. It changes slightly from them being orphans, to orphans of Imperial Servants to orphans to those who are important to the Imprerium (it might even say Nobility, I'm a touch foggy on that at the moment)....ect. They are either not good at sticking with one complete method of choosing Sisters (like how they have for Marines), or the rules vary from Schola to Schola and they should say so and make it a non-issue.
None of the things you listed are contradictions, though. Nobody would argue that Space Marines suddenly stopped recruiting aspirants in their teens, or that the Imperial Guard isn't allowed its own fliers, just because GW forgets to mention it in-between two editions.
You can be an orphan of an Imperial servant, who was important to the Imperium, and still be raised from infancy.
Hitting two of the above conditions gets you into the Schola. To become a Sister, you have to score on all three.
And whilst the 2E Codex did not mention the "from infancy" bit in its general description it is, however, included for one of the special characters (Helena the Virtuous). Furthermore, the designer notes for the 3E Codex had Andy Hoare proclaim that the team went through a lot of work to maintain a consistent image of the Sisterhood, reaffirming any fluff the studio published on them so far, even specifically up to the 1st Edition Rogue Trader bits about them hunting down the Rainbow Warriors Chapter.
Also:
"The Sisters of Battle, also known as the Adepta Sororitas, are an elite Sisterhood of warriors raised from infancy to adore the Emperor of Mankind." -- 5th Edition Codex
I really think GW has been a lot more consistent than you give them credit for, here.
Psienesis wrote: Ehm... the origins of Space Marines has changed a couple times since RT, and is further complicated by various novels that have grown men being accepted into Chapters and transformed into Marines during the Heresy.
I knew it changed post RT, but I wasn't aware of it changing a couple of times, or full adults getting the treatment. Guess the ability to do that got lost in the Heresy.
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Lynata wrote: [None of the things you listed are contradictions, though. Nobody would argue that Space Marines suddenly stopped recruiting aspirants in their teens just because GW forgets to mention it in-between two editions.
You can be an orphan of an Imperial servant, who was important to the Imperium, and still be raised from infancy.
Hitting two of the above conditions gets you into the Schola. To become a Sister, you have to score on all three.
While possible, just because we interpret it that way doesn't mean they meant it that way.
I really think GW has been a lot more consistent than you give them credit for, here.
I don't. I'll change my tune if they incorporate all three into one codex blurb but as it is, I feel they have a nasty habit of making unneeded tweaks without thinking.
ClockworkZion wrote:I knew it changed post RT, but I wasn't aware of it changing a couple of times, or full adults getting the treatment. Guess the ability to do that got lost in the Heresy.
As far the TT books are concerned, GW is ignoring a lot of what the novels say. In fact, you could say the 6E rulebook even mocked the HH novels in its own description of the Primarchs.
There is no canon, only different interpretations of the setting. Games Workshop's version of the Sisters, however, has so far been internally consistent.
ClockworkZion wrote:While possible, just because we interpret it that way doesn't mean they meant it that way.
This doesn't have to do anything with interpretation.
Just because something isn't mentioned anymore it does not mean it becomes invalid, as long as it's not contradicted. Otherwise we'd have a mess with the fluff here. Especially when it comes to the Sororitas. Do you really want to tell me we should ditch anything we know about the Sisters that isn't included in the 6E Codex? Because then we won't have much to work with.
Is it possible that you just don't like GW's version of the Sororitas, when it comes to this detail?
ClockworkZion wrote:While possible, just because we interpret it that way doesn't mean they meant it that way.
This doesn't have to do anything with interpretation.
Just because something isn't mentioned anymore it does not mean it becomes invalid, as long as it's not contradicted. Otherwise we'd have a mess with the fluff here. Especially when it comes to the Sororitas. Do you really want to tell me we should ditch anything we know about the Sisters that isn't included in the 6E Codex? Because then we won't have much to work with.
Is it possible that you just don't like GW's version of the Sororitas, when it comes to this detail?
Choosing to incorporate old canon just because it's not directly mentioned is an interpretation. You're choosing to approach it one way, while I choose to approach each new book/edition as their own stand alone thing.
Lynata wrote: Thing is, I just read that paragraph, and it doesn't mention mindwipes. The only thing that could refer to it would be the "psycho-surgery" - but again, if they'd wipe their personalities and memories, it wouldn't make sense that the GKs are looking specifically for recruits whose minds are already toughened.
The reason why mind-wiping is used to describe the process of making a Grey Knight is because it is explicitly mentioned in Grey Knights by Ben Counter where Counter described it as an erasing of the majority of their memories and their personalities so it is almost like they are a whole new person. Aaron Dembski-Bowden roughly describes how this is done in The Emperor's Gift as it shows Hyperion loosing his former self and how is original identity is erased. That is right in the beginning of the book as well. These are novels from Black Library though and not a codex source which others have already described above, I just thought I would throw this in with it. Often these repressed memories become a source of tension within the stories of Grey Knights for various reasons although it is clear that they don't want you to find out about your past but if you do, it isn't something that will change what a Grey Knight is or why he does it. Mostly the plot device is used to show the humanity of the particular Grey Knight and show that he was and is still a flawed mortal despite being a Grey Knight. To me it is as Psinesis pointed out, an extreme version of real military indoctrination which I have first hand experienced. The principles are the same and I think it is there to highlight a point about who Grey Knights and really all Space Marines are, broken down men that we built to be better to protect and serve. Extremes always highlight a lesson better than mediocrity but it also uses it as a cautionary tale which is why I like the duality of it.
The SoB are quite different since they are raised and indoctrinated into their Orders.
The two forces are the two faces of the same coin to show that purity can be instilled at birth or done through actions, deeds and mental fortitude, almost like a redemption (This is highlighted well in Hyperion himself because of where he came from). Both require discipline, though. Honestly both forces are awesome and work towards a common goal in two different ways. Both are needed at different times and I think that was partially what they were trying to highlight with the Bloodtide incident but if they took it out...I am satisfied.
ClockworkZion wrote:Choosing to incorporate old canon just because it's not directly mentioned is an interpretation. You're choosing to approach it one way, while I choose to approach each new book/edition as their own stand alone thing.
I suppose that's one way to see it, though this must mean you've got very little to work with, given the few contents of what passes as the Sisters' current codex.
Either way, you are still contradicting yourself. If you really "approach each new book/edition as their own standalone thing" rather than looking at it in connection to previous material .. then why do you complain about the "from infancy" bit not being mentioned in every single book?
If you limit your perception solely to 6E, then the Sisters are trained from infancy, and that's that.
If you include earlier material, then the Sisters were also always trained from infancy.
I don't see how you could arrive at any other conclusion.
Envihon wrote:These are novels from Black Library though and not a codex source which others have already described above, I just thought I would throw this in with it.
Yeah, that'd be my beef with them. Personally, I'm fairly biased against Black Library, as its authors regularly ignore codex fluff, and vice versa. It's different writers and thus different interpretations. Each of them is equally valid, but one shouldn't just throw everything together and expect it to fit.
Of course, this makes debates such as these complicated, because in essence both "they get mindwiped" and "they don't get mindwiped" are correct, depending on where you look and how you interpret it. That's 40k for ya. A lack of proper mindwipes could explain why GW thinks they need additional protection, so perhaps it only sounds weird if you add in those novels to your interpretation. That'd be the potential error here - but I will say that, technically, the codex material could easily be interpreted as including mindwipes as well, as the aforementioned "mental toughness" could also be interpreted in different ways.
I like the "two sides of the same coin" analogy, though. As far as my interpretation goes, that really sums it up. And in case of the Blood Tide, the blood ritual conducted by the GKs is basically the Knights' way to "cheat" and (indirectly) gain the cumulative bonus of both sides of that coin, thus increasing their resilience.
This, too, could be interpreted in multiple ways. For example, the Sisters' blood might - even (or perhaps especially!) after their deaths - possess a certain "signature" based on the purity and innocence of their souls that works like a low-level repellent against the daemonic. Or, possibly more grimdark, the actual nature of the blood doesn't matter squat, but the Grey Knights themselves need to believe that it's special, because said belief reinforces the armour of their souls. This is kind of how it works, after all; resistance against psychic powers depends a lot on willpower, and even lies can increase it (that is how propaganda works after all). The Sisters and their Acts of Faith are a prime example of this, and the GKs are psykers on top of it!
"From Infancy" just means "from some time before they were ten years old", so I don't see the contradiction.
Anyway, I actually liked the Blood Tide fluff. It showed Sisters as being innately incorruptible and brave, standing firm and holding the line against the khorne plague, and then only dying because the Grey Knights needed their blood to make sure that they were protected.
Because it says repeatedly in the GK fluff that they are incorruptible because of the rituals and magic they use to protect themselves.
Sisterhood incorruptibility is innate. GK incorruptibility is engineered. The Blood Tide just shows this explicitly, so GK players don't like it because it shows that they're not perfect paragons or light and good or some crap like that which they're not supposed to be anyway.
Sisters players, I never understood why they don't like it. Because it makes it seem like they had to be rescued or something? I dunno.
ClockworkZion wrote:Choosing to incorporate old canon just because it's not directly mentioned is an interpretation. You're choosing to approach it one way, while I choose to approach each new book/edition as their own stand alone thing.
I suppose that's one way to see it, though this must mean you've got very little to work with, given the few contents of what passes as the Sisters' current codex.
Either way, you are still contradicting yourself. If you really "approach each new book/edition as their own standalone thing" rather than looking at it in connection to previous material .. then why do you complain about the "from infancy" bit not being mentioned in every single book?
If you limit your perception solely to 6E, then the Sisters are trained from infancy, and that's that.
If you include earlier material, then the Sisters were also always trained from infancy.
I don't see how you could arrive at any other conclusion.
I complain because the way Sisters are chosen keeps changing just enough to throw me off. I'm not against them being raised from infants, I'm against it constantly getting tweaked when it doesn't need to be. Plus it just makes things harder to keep up on the lore when they keep tweaking things that should be the standard, and the core of their lore.
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Furyou Miko wrote: "From Infancy" just means "from some time before they were ten years old", so I don't see the contradiction.
I've never heard such a definition honestly.
Furyou Miko wrote: Anyway, I actually liked the Blood Tide fluff. It showed Sisters as being innately incorruptible and brave, standing firm and holding the line against the khorne plague, and then only dying because the Grey Knights needed their blood to make sure that they were protected.
Because it says repeatedly in the GK fluff that they are incorruptible because of the rituals and magic they use to protect themselves.
Sisterhood incorruptibility is innate. GK incorruptibility is engineered. The Blood Tide just shows this explicitly, so GK players don't like it because it shows that they're not perfect paragons or light and good or some crap like that which they're not supposed to be anyway.
Sisters players, I never understood why they don't like it. Because it makes it seem like they had to be rescued or something? I dunno.
I liked the concept (it could even make a pretty good Black Library Novel), but the execution (no pun intended) was lacking. I felt that some careful rewording would have made it work a lot better, but that's just me.
ClockworkZion wrote:I complain because the way Sisters are chosen keeps changing just enough to throw me off. I'm not against them being raised from infants, I'm against it constantly getting tweaked when it doesn't need to be. Plus it just makes things harder to keep up on the lore when they keep tweaking things that should be the standard, and the core of their lore.
But it didn't change... ><
Just because they're not copypasting 100% of the previous material into the next edition doesn't mean anything has changed. If you look at the new codex in isolation, it shouldn't matter what's been said before. If you don't, then this has been in their fluff before their first codex.
Simple omissions are not "tweaks". They would allow someone who only looks at the current edition to ignore what's been said before (example: the SoB's role for the Ordo Hereticus) ... but you can hardly fault GW just because they don't follow an individual reader's opinion that old fluff is invalid. That's like saying GW would be wrong not to write their SoB as incapable idiots just because Black Library authors regularly portray them so. GW has their own way of dealing with the fluff. You don't have to subscribe to it, of course, but you can't say GW is flip-flopping around just because they follow and propagate a different interpretation.
tl;dr: What you consider a change, I merely regard as old fluff being reaffirmed. Same as with the old Force Disposition Charts that were printed in the 6E core rulebook, where you can see that there's apparently a lot more Space Marines than Sisters around.
GW's only fault is that a lot of the Sisters' fluff is "hidden" in various obscure sources such as old issues of White Dwarf, making it ridiculously hard to find. So I can see how something that has actually been consistent for decades might appear like a change simply because the reader wasn't aware of the older sources... in this case WD #211. Perhaps it is that what you've experienced? This I could understand, and agree on!
How many SoB fans know, for example, at which age the Sisters get chosen and "graduate" from the Schola, and what happens to them next? This is said nowhere except than in a character background of GW's Inquisitor game, and their Infamy&Villainy article about Ephrael Stern.
ClockworkZion wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:"From Infancy" just means "from some time before they were ten years old", so I don't see the contradiction.
I've never heard such a definition honestly.
Huh ... me neither.
I mean, doesn't "infancy" come from "infant"?
Or did you perhaps mistake years for months? Then it would fit.
ClockworkZion wrote:I liked the concept (it could even make a pretty good Black Library Novel), but the execution (no pun intended) was lacking. I felt that some careful rewording would have made it work a lot better, but that's just me.
Hmmh, in my opinion it's all about how you interpret it - the event has been described so vaguely that it leaves a lot for one's own "headcanon" to fill the blanks, which I think can be a good thing.
But I'm curious, how would you have worded it?
WrentheFaceless wrote:Howd this get turned into another Sisters thread?
Yea but they got rid of the whole "bathing in sisters blood" thing
And had another incident where Sisters not only didnt get killed for their blood, they sacrificed themselves to let Draigo get to where he needed to go.
generalchaos34 wrote: As an aside they do mention that potential Sister are chosen from the regular stock of Schola students in the new Militarum Tempestus Codex.
That aside, does Draigo still super mary sue his way across the warp? Is Mordrak even mentioned?
THey cut out what Draigo was doing in the warp, Mordrak is mentioned a couple of times.
generalchaos34 wrote: As an aside they do mention that potential Sister are chosen from the regular stock of Schola students in the new Militarum Tempestus Codex.
That aside, does Draigo still super mary sue his way across the warp? Is Mordrak even mentioned?
People really need to get around to listening to Mortarion's Heart where Black Library does a great job in humanizing Draigo and taking away the Mary-sue super powers of his. Also, quick tid-bit, Draigo is the student of Mordrak so he owes his awesomeness from being trained by Mordrak himself, again that is in the aforementioned audio drama.
But I wonder if these fluff changes have anything to do with Matt Ward leaving....
Lynata wrote: GW's only fault is that a lot of the Sisters' fluff is "hidden" in various obscure sources such as old issues of White Dwarf, making it ridiculously hard to find. So I can see how something that has actually been consistent for decades might appear like a change simply because the reader wasn't aware of the older sources... in this case WD #211. Perhaps it is that what you've experienced? This I could understand, and agree on!
That's actually why I treat things as stand alones, because otherwise you'd need a deep knowledge of something that came before. And I admittedly haven't seen every single Sisters document out there (the stuff they had between 2nd and 3rd for instance, and some of the WDs because they're very hard to find and are rarely scanned online), and even having read everything I have it's hard to keep on top of it all which is why I prefer the standalone approach.
The issue is that when you're unaware of the changes from one thing to the next (like I missed the infant line addition from 3rd to 5th) it can throw you off even if you keep on top of it all. I'd rather they continue to add to the events instead of tweaking things that already exist every edition. Give us more new stuff, not re-tellings of old stuff. If it works (and 95%+ does) than don't mess with it and instead weave in new things for us to read about and enjoy.
ClockworkZion wrote:I liked the concept (it could even make a pretty good Black Library Novel), but the execution (no pun intended) was lacking. I felt that some careful rewording would have made it work a lot better, but that's just me.
Hmmh, in my opinion it's all about how you interpret it - the event has been described so vaguely that it leaves a lot for one's own "headcanon" to fill the blanks, which I think can be a good thing.
But I'm curious, how would you have worded it?
I'd gone with making it longer for one, the original section while enough to convey key points didn't convey the reasoning behind the actions. Tossing in a little detail about the Grey Knights needing extra protection against the daemonic torrent of blood (and possibly nanomachines if it's the same one as before) and the sigils actively repelling it from them, and perhaps framing it like an act of mercy to provide the Sisters, who are likely at the end of their munitions and any supplies they have, to kill them, and then honor them by using their blood to form the sigils so that they may still serve on through death.
Basically it's one of those bits I think would have been better served as a page or two at least and done as a narrative through the point of view of one the Grey Knights who was there.
Furyou Miko wrote: 'Infants' at school was years one to three, which equates to ages four to seven (sorry, seven, not ten). So that's where I get that definition.
It became a Sisters thread because someone mentioned the Bloodtide, which draws us like moths to a rotting corpse. >>
The Bloodtide incident: The closest the SoB will ever get to having an actual printed codex and that is their main reason for hijacking GK threads Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Furyou Miko wrote: 'Infants' at school was years one to three, which equates to ages four to seven (sorry, seven, not ten). So that's where I get that definition.
It became a Sisters thread because someone mentioned the Bloodtide, which draws us like moths to a rotting corpse. >>
The Bloodtide incident: The closest the SoB will ever get to having an actual printed codex and that is their main reason for hijacking GK threads Sorry, couldn't help myself.
You'll be forgiven if you chant 100 Ave Emperors while flogging yourself with the 2nd edition Codex: Sisters of Battle.
More seriously, it attracts us since it applies to our army, just like discussing the first Armageddon War could attract Daemon, Chaos, Grey Knight, IG and Space Wolf players.
Furyou Miko wrote: 'Infants' at school was years one to three, which equates to ages four to seven (sorry, seven, not ten). So that's where I get that definition.
It became a Sisters thread because someone mentioned the Bloodtide, which draws us like moths to a rotting corpse. >>
The Bloodtide incident: The closest the SoB will ever get to having an actual printed codex and that is their main reason for hijacking GK threads Sorry, couldn't help myself.
You'll be forgiven if you chant 100 Ave Emperors while flogging yourself with the 2nd edition Codex: Sisters of Battle.
More seriously, it attracts us since it applies to our army, just like discussing the first Armageddon War could attract Daemon, Chaos, Grey Knight, IG and Space Wolf players.
Sorry that I forgot the again part of that jab.
But unless they put in the Bloodtide incident somewhere else, it seems they have ret-conned it like they did with Draigo. GK players don't have to decide whether it was totally out of character for the Grey Knights to slaughter SoB to make themselves more resistant to Chaos or whether it was a good piece of grim dark that showed that the GK will and can do anything to stop Chaos as much as the SoB players don't have to hear about the Sisters being innocently slaughtered by dudes in shiny power armor. Also it takes bragging rights away from the SoB players that their army is "more pure" than the GK because the GK still had to slaughter Sisters to become more pure than they already were.
GW heard us gripe about how bad a piece of fluff it was, saw the countless arguments about it and boom it is gone. Now they are just as pure as each other just in different ways.
Envihon wrote: Sorry that I forgot the again part of that jab.
No biggie, I was just ribbing you a bit.
Envihon wrote: But unless they put in the Bloodtide incident somewhere else, it seems they have ret-conned it like they did with Draigo. GK players don't have to decide whether it was totally out of character for the Grey Knights to slaughter SoB to make themselves more resistant to Chaos or whether it was a good piece of grim dark that showed that the GK will and can do anything to stop Chaos as much as the SoB players don't have to hear about the Sisters being innocently slaughtered by dudes in shiny power armor. Also it takes bragging rights away from the SoB players that their army is "more pure" than the GK because the GK still had to slaughter Sisters to become more pure than they already were.
GW heard us gripe about how bad a piece of fluff it was, saw the countless arguments about it and boom it is gone. Now they are just as pure as each other just in different ways.
All holds true as long as you approach each codex as a stand alone, with the most current being the "correct" version of things, but not everyone does, as outlined in this thread.
Envihon wrote: Sorry that I forgot the again part of that jab.
No biggie, I was just ribbing you a bit.
Envihon wrote: But unless they put in the Bloodtide incident somewhere else, it seems they have ret-conned it like they did with Draigo. GK players don't have to decide whether it was totally out of character for the Grey Knights to slaughter SoB to make themselves more resistant to Chaos or whether it was a good piece of grim dark that showed that the GK will and can do anything to stop Chaos as much as the SoB players don't have to hear about the Sisters being innocently slaughtered by dudes in shiny power armor. Also it takes bragging rights away from the SoB players that their army is "more pure" than the GK because the GK still had to slaughter Sisters to become more pure than they already were.
GW heard us gripe about how bad a piece of fluff it was, saw the countless arguments about it and boom it is gone. Now they are just as pure as each other just in different ways.
All holds true as long as you approach each codex as a stand alone, with the most current being the "correct" version of things, but not everyone does, as outlined in this thread.
I view it in the same way I view comic book continuity with everything that goes into the Warhammer 40k universe with codices, Black Library and Forge World all throwing their 2 cents in to mesh everything together, I view the most up to date ones as the ruling on the fluff and usually Black Library as clarifying or fleshing out that fluff with the most modern codices ruling on the current fluff. GW has shown that this property if quite fluid. Unfortunately, it makes bad fluff like the Bloodtide incident and Mary Sue Draigo go away but it also makes my favorite parts like the Necrons being the force behind the Pariah gene go away too.
Sabathiel is a non-studio character. She's as "canon" as the corrupted GK hanging around in my DH game.
And dying to Chaos is not falling to Chaos. GK die to Chaos all the time, but they don't give up their souls in doing so. Neither do Sisters... and Sisters don't need sorcery to do it.
Psienesis wrote: Sabathiel is a non-studio character. She's as "canon" as the corrupted GK hanging around in my DH game.
And dying to Chaos is not falling to Chaos. GK die to Chaos all the time, but they don't give up their souls in doing so. Neither do Sisters... and Sisters don't need sorcery to do it.
And to point out, GK do require their sigils and armors for it.
Thus the blood of the martyr's being used to adorn them to protect them.
Okay, in the technical sense, the Sisters are more pure because they don't need be psychics to accomplish what they do but the GK are more diplomatic in the fact that they will work with xenos to defeat Chaos while the SoB are just "BURN THEM ALL!" kind of people. I still count that as a win since the GK have some plasticity in their thought process and realize that sometimes making non-human friends means less Chaos in the galaxy.
Envihon wrote: Okay, in the technical sense, the Sisters are more pure because they don't need be psychics to accomplish what they do but the GK are more diplomatic in the fact that they will work with xenos to defeat Chaos while the SoB are just "BURN THEM ALL!" kind of people. I still count that as a win since the GK have some plasticity in their thought process and realize that sometimes making non-human friends means less Chaos in the galaxy.
Actually being so plastic in their thinking can be seen as Heresy, and an invitation for Chaos to come walking in. Afterall, a common saying in 40k lore is: "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded."
generalchaos wrote:As an aside they do mention that potential Sister are chosen from the regular stock of Schola students in the new Militarum Tempestus Codex.
What are you referring to? The only mentions of Sororitas recruits list a variety of additional requirements.
Or are you suggesting that we should also ignore codex fluff from the same edition, now?
ClockworkZion wrote:The issue is that when you're unaware of the changes from one thing to the next (like I missed the infant line addition from 3rd to 5th) it can throw you off even if you keep on top of it all. I'd rather they continue to add to the events instead of tweaking things that already exist every edition. Give us more new stuff, not re-tellings of old stuff. If it works (and 95%+ does) than don't mess with it and instead weave in new things for us to read about and enjoy.
Whilst I can totally understand being miffed about having missed something, I just don't get you here. Again: They did not "tweak" anything, they were just being consistent. No contradiction, reference to old stuff... how is this a bad thing??
On one hand you want more new stuff instead of re-tellings of old stuff, but on the other you're complaining that GW doesn't just copypaste everything but only specifically mentions the "from infancy" bit in half their codices instead of every time. I don't get it.
ClockworkZion wrote:I'd gone with making it longer for one, the original section while enough to convey key points didn't convey the reasoning behind the actions. Tossing in a little detail about the Grey Knights needing extra protection against the daemonic torrent of blood (and possibly nanomachines if it's the same one as before) and the sigils actively repelling it from them, and perhaps framing it like an act of mercy to provide the Sisters, who are likely at the end of their munitions and any supplies they have, to kill them, and then honor them by using their blood to form the sigils so that they may still serve on through death.
Basically it's one of those bits I think would have been better served as a page or two at least and done as a narrative through the point of view of one the Grey Knights who was there.
A story would have certainly been interesting. I'd +1 for a more detailed account, of course, but only because I like to read more SoB fluff in general, not because I would've needed it here. The "needing extra protection" bit was mentioned in the text, provided as the reason for why the GKs did what they did.
As for the "mercy killings", I don't think there would have been a good way to evoke that kind of understanding in the reader without making it look ridiculously artificial. If the Sisters would've been out of ammo, they would have been overrun or (more likely) killed themselves, either by suicide or a last charge, and if they weren't you'd still have a battle between the Sororitas and the GKs.
What would perhaps have worked would be some solemn words by the Knights' leader, either spoken to his own men before the assault, or after over the dead bodies of the Sororitas. But honestly, I've already got that in my headcanon, I don't need GW to point it out for me. It's just what would have made the most sense by all participants, given the circumstances, which is why I don't have an issue with the account as provided in the original source.
But I also liked the original ME3 ending because I filled in the blanks myself, whereas half the internet went on a rampage against the developer. So make of that what you will.
Envihon wrote:The Bloodtide incident: The closest the SoB will ever get to having an actual printed codex and that is their main reason for hijacking GK threads Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Threads evolve, depending on what's being posted about. That's just how things work.
You can always try to steer it more towards a GK discussion again.
Envihon wrote:But unless they put in the Bloodtide incident somewhere else, it seems they have ret-conned it like they did with Draigo.
40kdoes not have a canon, so technically speaking it's impossible for something to get retconned. You can, however, simply choose to ignore it on an individual basis. After all, it could just as much be argued that the Sisters no longer work for the Inquisition, seeing as the Chamber Militant-bit is absent from 5th and 6th Edition fluff.
An example - where do the Adeptus Arbites come from? The current edition's codices do not mention them when talking about the Schola. To some people, this would mean their recruitment is entirely up in the air, now.
Personally, I'm treating something as overruled as soon as it's directly or indirectly contradicted by newer studio material. But how we work with the sources we are provided has to be everyone's own decision, given that there exists no official ruling.
Envihon wrote:Unfortunately, it makes bad fluff like the Bloodtide incident and Mary Sue Draigo go away but it also makes my favorite parts like the Necrons being the force behind the Pariah gene go away too.
You could always keep the parts you like for your personal interpretation!
There is no single "true" interpretation of the setting, we all have our own little bubbles of how we perceive 40k. It makes it pretty silly to debate these things as there is precious little common ground, but that's why I think that every single thread discussing the background should have a disclaimer clarifying what sources are "admitted" into the discussion...
Envihon wrote:Okay, in the technical sense, the Sisters are more pure because they don't need be psychics to accomplish what they do but the GK are more diplomatic in the fact that they will work with xenos to defeat Chaos while the SoB are just "BURN THEM ALL!" kind of people. I still count that as a win since the GK have some plasticity in their thought process and realize that sometimes making non-human friends means less Chaos in the galaxy.
You're really going out of your way to make that sound like an insult there.
But personally, I've embraced that stubbornness as the source of their strength, and what allows them to go toe-to-toe with rogue Marines and other horrors of the setting in spite of lacking genetical enhancements. The big challenge lies in writing (or even roleplaying) Sisterhood characters in a way that they still have some unique personality and are not 100% robots, yet still fit into that incredibly narrow mold they are pushed into by way of their upbringing. A lot of writers, including professional ones, fail at this task. Looking back at my own experiences in Dark Heresy, I'm not satisfied with my own performance there, either. James Swallow, Kev Walker and Ben Counter are the only people I can think of who managed to pull it off, so far.
Grey knights are augmented superhumans, who utilize psychic wards and purpose-built technology to fight their enemies.
Sisters of Battle are regular people who, through force of will, shrug off hits from weapons that ignore power armor and who commit superhuman acts without even being superhuman. The sisters need no psilencers, or force weapons on every girl, or even two bolters welded together, to get the job done.
It's like a psychic navy seal with a rocket launcher knocking out a tank - cool, badass, whatever.
But when a regular joe with a rock does it simply though sheer force of will and righteous faith, then I'm truly impressed.
the new codex strongly implies that a large degree of the resistance to chaos of grey knights is innate due to their close genetic association with the Emperor.
Lynata wrote: Whilst I can totally understand being miffed about having missed something, I just don't get you here. Again: They did not "tweak" anything, they were just being consistent. No contradiction, reference to old stuff... how is this a bad thing??
You're approaching it form the mindset of "what they don't mention doesn't change", when things get dropped it's annoying.
Lynata wrote: On one hand you want more new stuff instead of re-tellings of old stuff, but on the other you're complaining that GW doesn't just copypaste everything but only specifically mentions the "from infancy" bit in half their codices instead of every time. I don't get it.
Half of the codexes? A WD, a WD codex (which is arguably not a real codex) and 6th (not a real codex 2: the reckoning) are the mentions of it all. So that leaves out 2nd and 3rd which are the more complete codexes, especially 2nd which covered the most about the Sisters.
I am not asking for just copy paste but rather to not mess with what works and then add to the overall story by filling in the gaps, and not all at the "Time of Ending".
Lynata wrote: A story would have certainly been interesting. I'd +1 for a more detailed account, of course, but only because I like to read more SoB fluff in general, not because I would've needed it here. The "needing extra protection" bit was mentioned in the text, provided as the reason for why the GKs did what they did.
It was, but if there could have been more. I really think a character's account of it would have sold it best.
Lynata wrote: As for the "mercy killings", I don't think there would have been a good way to evoke that kind of understanding in the reader without making it look ridiculously artificial. If the Sisters would've been out of ammo, they would have been overrun or (more likely) killed themselves, either by suicide or a last charge, and if they weren't you'd still have a battle between the Sororitas and the GKs.
Sisters who are fighting on their last reserves, almost out of ammo, having not slept for days, heavily wounded, dehydrated and very out of it because of the sleep deprivation. Giving them the Emperor's Mercy at that point (not a bloody, painful slaughter, but a literal mercy killing in the least amount of pain possible) might do it.
That or they are mislead and the GK know they'll need to kill them and rather than potentially damn their souls to the Warp they quickly execute them as painlessly as possible and use their blood to create the sigils as a means of honoring them in death.
Lynata wrote: What would perhaps have worked would be some solemn words by the Knights' leader, either spoken to his own men before the assault, or after over the dead bodies of the Sororitas. But honestly, I've already got that in my headcanon, I don't need GW to point it out for me. It's just what would have made the most sense by all participants, given the circumstances, which is why I don't have an issue with the account as provided in the original source.
I really wasn't speaking from a headcanon approach, but rather as a way it could have been done a lot better from the get go is all.
Lynata wrote: But I also liked the original ME3 ending because I filled in the blanks myself, whereas half the internet went on a rampage against the developer. So make of that what you will.
I liked all of the ending outside of the push button bunk. I went for the Singularity ending btw (from the start of the game to the end actually).
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BrianDavion wrote: the new codex strongly implies that a large degree of the resistance to chaos of grey knights is innate due to their close genetic association with the Emperor.
That's been hinted at before if I recall actually. It's interesting question of if it's actually the Emperor's personal Geneseed, or if it's just the one of the least tainted geneseed that he created (or if it's a geneseed from one of the two unknown Primarchs).
Envihon wrote: Okay, in the technical sense, the Sisters are more pure because they don't need be psychics to accomplish what they do but the GK are more diplomatic in the fact that they will work with xenos to defeat Chaos while the SoB are just "BURN THEM ALL!" kind of people. I still count that as a win since the GK have some plasticity in their thought process and realize that sometimes making non-human friends means less Chaos in the galaxy.
Actually being so plastic in their thinking can be seen as Heresy, and an invitation for Chaos to come walking in. Afterall, a common saying in 40k lore is: "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded."
But a Grey Knights plasticity isn't a fault. Them deciding to help the Eldar after they purged a Craftworld that was full of Chaos isn't the entry that Chaos is looking for. The Grey Knights mind is literally an anathema to a daemon, which is why a daemon will never try to touch them, they will get burned like the Grey Knight is the opposite polarity. With their gene-seed being sourced from the Emperor himself and the fact that their psychic ability is rigorously tested and then trained to specifically repel Chaos is how the Grey Knights have never fallen to Chaos and represent that with training and control, the warp can be used as a weapon against Chaos, not just a way for Chaos to get in. The only force to do something like this are the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves.
Grey knights are augmented superhumans, who utilize psychic wards and purpose-built technology to fight their enemies.
Sisters of Battle are regular people who, through force of will, shrug off hits from weapons that ignore power armor and who commit superhuman acts without even being superhuman. The sisters need no psilencers, or force weapons on every girl, or even two bolters welded together, to get the job done.
It's like a psychic navy seal with a rocket launcher knocking out a tank - cool, badass, whatever.
But when a regular joe with a rock does it simply though sheer force of will and righteous faith, then I'm truly impressed.
I would give you those points if the selection for Grey Knights wasn't so rigorous. Grey Knights aren't just regular psykers chosen and their power comes from the fact that their gene-seed is from the Emperor, they are tested trough 666 tests before they are even allowed to become a Grey Knight to make sure that they have the top, most resistant psykers the galaxy has to offer. On top of that they are trained to hone their psychic powers through sheer force of will as well to turn their psychic energies into the anathema of Chaos so that when daemons just try to touch their mind they get burned and only the most stalwart of daemon princes can even stand in a psychic battle against a Grey Knight. Psychic manifestations take will to conjure and repel, and the Grey Knights are the best psykers that the Imperium has to offer then on top of that, they are super human.
The Sisters of Battle aren't superhuman because they can't be. For reasons unexplained by GW, female genetics doesn't take a gene-seed but they apply the same training principles except the do it from when they are a child to get the same result as a Grey Knight and instead of using psychics, they use faith which can be just as powerful. Instead of a gene-seed, a lifetime of rigid discipline where the child knows nothing else. The only difference between a Sister and GK in my eyes, is the length of training. The GK can do it quicker because of the gene-seed but the amount that a initiate has to go through is literally through hell and back in a relative short amount of time that it takes for them to raise a Sister to the same point. As I have said before, SoB and GK are two sides of the same coin. The same principles applied in two distinct ways because of the resources available to each. I don't count the SoB as a regular "human". Are they genetically modified? No but they have been highly modified in other ways from the the regular population which makes them almost just like a Space Marine. A regular person can not just up and do what a Sister does but has to be raised that way in order to become a Sister.
Envihon wrote: Okay, in the technical sense, the Sisters are more pure because they don't need be psychics to accomplish what they do but the GK are more diplomatic in the fact that they will work with xenos to defeat Chaos while the SoB are just "BURN THEM ALL!" kind of people. I still count that as a win since the GK have some plasticity in their thought process and realize that sometimes making non-human friends means less Chaos in the galaxy.
Actually being so plastic in their thinking can be seen as Heresy, and an invitation for Chaos to come walking in. Afterall, a common saying in 40k lore is: "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded."
But a Grey Knights plasticity isn't a fault. Them deciding to help the Eldar after they purged a Craftworld that was full of Chaos isn't the entry that Chaos is looking for. The Grey Knights mind is literally an anathema to a daemon, which is why a daemon will never try to touch them, they will get burned like the Grey Knight is the opposite polarity. With their gene-seed being sourced from the Emperor himself and the fact that their psychic ability is rigorously tested and then trained to specifically repel Chaos is how the Grey Knights have never fallen to Chaos and represent that with training and control, the warp can be used as a weapon against Chaos, not just a way for Chaos to get in. The only force to do something like this are the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves.
The Geneseed is never expressly said to be the Emperors (it's not even clear if he has the correct organs implanted into his own body to create geneseed either), for all we know it could be one of the missing Primarchs (perhaps a counterpoint to Magnus), or Magnus' geneseed stock from before the Heresy. Or it could just be the Ultramarine Geneseed and the training/psyker nature of all of them makes them so effective and not the geneseed.
And if we want to pull in BL material there was a GK who was nearly possessed by a Daemon and went stark raving mad to fight it off, willingly got the emblem of Khorne branded onto himself during that time and became the number one Gladiator in the arena on a planet dedicated -to- Khorne.
And of course that Space Marine in the Daemon Codex may have been a Grey Knight, or even Draigo at some point in the future, who knelt in fealty to Slaanesh, or do you know of any other chapter of Marine that could fight through Daemons in the Warp without being torn apart by it?
So it's not that they are unable to fall, it's more that to fall is so disasterious that they can not do it for the sake of the Imperium.
Envihon wrote: Okay, in the technical sense, the Sisters are more pure because they don't need be psychics to accomplish what they do but the GK are more diplomatic in the fact that they will work with xenos to defeat Chaos while the SoB are just "BURN THEM ALL!" kind of people. I still count that as a win since the GK have some plasticity in their thought process and realize that sometimes making non-human friends means less Chaos in the galaxy.
Actually being so plastic in their thinking can be seen as Heresy, and an invitation for Chaos to come walking in. Afterall, a common saying in 40k lore is: "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded."
But a Grey Knights plasticity isn't a fault. Them deciding to help the Eldar after they purged a Craftworld that was full of Chaos isn't the entry that Chaos is looking for. The Grey Knights mind is literally an anathema to a daemon, which is why a daemon will never try to touch them, they will get burned like the Grey Knight is the opposite polarity. With their gene-seed being sourced from the Emperor himself and the fact that their psychic ability is rigorously tested and then trained to specifically repel Chaos is how the Grey Knights have never fallen to Chaos and represent that with training and control, the warp can be used as a weapon against Chaos, not just a way for Chaos to get in. The only force to do something like this are the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves.
The Geneseed is never expressly said to be the Emperors (it's not even clear if he has the correct organs implanted into his own body to create geneseed either), for all we know it could be one of the missing Primarchs (perhaps a counterpoint to Magnus), or Magnus' geneseed stock from before the Heresy. Or it could just be the Ultramarine Geneseed and the training/psyker nature of all of them makes them so effective and not the geneseed.
And if we want to pull in BL material there was a GK who was nearly possessed by a Daemon and went stark raving mad to fight it off, willingly got the emblem of Khorne branded onto himself during that time and became the number one Gladiator in the arena on a planet dedicated -to- Khorne.
And of course that Space Marine in the Daemon Codex may have been a Grey Knight, or even Draigo at some point in the future, who knelt in fealty to Slaanesh, or do you know of any other chapter of Marine that could fight through Daemons in the Warp without being torn apart by it?
So it's not that they are unable to fall, it's more that to fall is so disasterious that they can not do it for the sake of the Imperium.
The GK was specifically NOT from any known Primarch. To do so would be to desecrate the foundations they are founded on. They are meant to be incorruptible.
Codex: Grey Knights 5th Edition, Pg 6 wrote:
The very nature of the Horus Heresy had proven the Space Marines were not to corruption as the Emperor hoped.
Furthermore
Codex: Grey Knights 5th Edition, Pg 7 wrote:
Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.
Here we have 2 seperate paragraphs that explicitly state the GK are NOT from any of the 20 Primarchs. If you were taking stuff from one of the 18 known it would be existing stock, and from the 2 unknown legions would also be classed as existing stock or have been destroyed.
The second paragraph I quoted explicitly states they are from the Emperor's geneseed.
Deadshot wrote: The GK was specifically NOT from any known Primarch. To do so would be to desecrate the foundations they are founded on. They are meant to be incorruptible.[
Desecrate? I hardly think so. I think you're exaggerating that one.
Codex: Grey Knights 5th Edition, Pg 6 wrote:
The very nature of the Horus Heresy had proven the Space Marines were not to corruption as the Emperor hoped.
Furthermore
Codex: Grey Knights 5th Edition, Pg 7 wrote:
Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.
Here we have 2 seperate paragraphs that explicitly state the GK are NOT from any of the 20 Primarchs. If you were taking stuff from one of the 18 known it would be existing stock, and from the 2 unknown legions would also be classed as existing stock or have been destroyed.
The second paragraph I quoted explicitly states they are from the Emperor's geneseed.
Actually I see two paragraphs that say the Emperor was disappointed that his elite warriors were not "chaos-proof" like he'd hoped (though if he'd actually talked to his kids about these sorts of things maybe it wouldn't have happened). Furthermore, all geneseed caries within it a genetic legacy of the Emperor, so just because it's a new Geneseed doesn't mean it's based on him directly. I mean look at how varied all the Primarchs are, and they all have his genes. It's likely that even if he started from scratch he probably didn't give them a direct full copy of his genes for the Geneseed. Else they'd be more like Primarchs than Space Marines in terms of power.
Deadshot wrote: The GK was specifically NOT from any known Primarch. To do so would be to desecrate the foundations they are founded on. They are meant to be incorruptible.[
Desecrate? I hardly think so. I think you're exaggerating that one.
Codex: Grey Knights 5th Edition, Pg 6 wrote:
The very nature of the Horus Heresy had proven the Space Marines were not to corruption as the Emperor hoped.
Furthermore
Codex: Grey Knights 5th Edition, Pg 7 wrote:
Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.
Here we have 2 seperate paragraphs that explicitly state the GK are NOT from any of the 20 Primarchs. If you were taking stuff from one of the 18 known it would be existing stock, and from the 2 unknown legions would also be classed as existing stock or have been destroyed.
The second paragraph I quoted explicitly states they are from the Emperor's geneseed.
Actually I see two paragraphs that say the Emperor was disappointed that his elite warriors were not "chaos-proof" like he'd hoped (though if he'd actually talked to his kids about these sorts of things maybe it wouldn't have happened). Furthermore, all geneseed caries within it a genetic legacy of the Emperor, so just because it's a new Geneseed doesn't mean it's based on him directly. I mean look at how varied all the Primarchs are, and they all have his genes. It's likely that even if he started from scratch he probably didn't give them a direct full copy of his genes for the Geneseed. Else they'd be more like Primarchs than Space Marines in terms of power.
Are you deliberately misinterpreting it? Its there is black and white.
Deadshot wrote: The GK was specifically NOT from any known Primarch. To do so would be to desecrate the foundations they are founded on. They are meant to be incorruptible.[
Desecrate? I hardly think so. I think you're exaggerating that one.
Codex: Grey Knights 5th Edition, Pg 6 wrote:
The very nature of the Horus Heresy had proven the Space Marines were not to corruption as the Emperor hoped.
Furthermore
Codex: Grey Knights 5th Edition, Pg 7 wrote:
Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.
Here we have 2 seperate paragraphs that explicitly state the GK are NOT from any of the 20 Primarchs. If you were taking stuff from one of the 18 known it would be existing stock, and from the 2 unknown legions would also be classed as existing stock or have been destroyed.
The second paragraph I quoted explicitly states they are from the Emperor's geneseed.
Actually I see two paragraphs that say the Emperor was disappointed that his elite warriors were not "chaos-proof" like he'd hoped (though if he'd actually talked to his kids about these sorts of things maybe it wouldn't have happened). Furthermore, all geneseed caries within it a genetic legacy of the Emperor, so just because it's a new Geneseed doesn't mean it's based on him directly. I mean look at how varied all the Primarchs are, and they all have his genes. It's likely that even if he started from scratch he probably didn't give them a direct full copy of his genes for the Geneseed. Else they'd be more like Primarchs than Space Marines in terms of power.
If you look to the quote found in my signature, you will see that the Emperor heavily hints that the Grey Knights are of a gene-seed derived directly from his genetic structure and not like that of the Primarchs. During the Horus Heresy, the Emperor realized that he failed when he made the Primarchs since they had fallen to Chaos and the only way to make them incorruptible was to use a gene-seed derived directly from him. The reasoning used to be that Malcador took it without the Emperor's knowledge but with the recent releases in Codices, Horus Heresy books and specifically Aaron Dembski-Bowden's (Who is overly careful to respect the fluff of the Codex and source material) The Emperor's Gift where it is blatantly pointed out that the gene-seed of the Grey Knights is indeed derived directly from the Emperor so that they are incorruptible. It is the reason why the Grey Knights are referred to as The Emperor's Gift, they are the last gift from the Emperor to humanity.
Fuethermore, they would be nothing like Primarchs. Primarchs were created from scratch using the Emperor's DNA as a starting point. Space Marines are made by taking some of the diluted Emperor DNA (the Primarch DNA) and implanting it into a host with its own DNA.
Genes are genes. You can be genetically traced to an ancestor many, many centuries dead. Since the Primarchs were created using the DNA of the Emperor, so, too, do all Space Marines share similar genetic material with the Emperor.
Taken as a whole, that line in the GK Codex doesn't make any sense. All Space Marines share a genetic link to the Emperor.
Psienesis wrote: Genes are genes. You can be genetically traced to an ancestor many, many centuries dead. Since the Primarchs were created using the DNA of the Emperor, so, too, do all Space Marines share similar genetic material with the Emperor.
Taken as a whole, that line in the GK Codex doesn't make any sense. All Space Marines share a genetic link to the Emperor.
Yes but the genes that were used to make the Primarchs were manipulated to express certain traits and make them all individuals that they were. They were crafted to be an expression of certain key traits of the Emperor. Lorgar was the Emperor's voice, Magnus the Emperor's mind, etc so the genes may have been derived from the Emperor, they were different much like a child shares DNA from it's parents but it isn't an exact duplicate otherwise they would be a clone. The same goes for the Primarchs. Then the gene-seed was derived from the Primarchs to make the Legions so we are getting even more distant from the Emperor even before accounting for all the mutations that have happened to the gene-seed leading up to the 41st millennium.
The Grey Knights are special because the gene-seed is directly derived from the Emperor himself. No manipulation to them, no engineering to it to express certain traits over the others, just straight Emperor. The Emperor thought that the Primarchs would be enough of him that they would resist corruption but different enough that he didn't create 20 exact clones of himself. When the Heresy happened the Emperor knew that he had failed and even with the engineering to prevent it. In the audio drama The Sigilite, Malcador talks about a discussion between him and the Emperor where the Emperor thinks that humans will eventually reach a point where they won't need him anymore but Malcador insists that humanity will always need him. This is partly why the Primarchs were created and partly why the Emperor put Horus in charge when he went to go create the human webway, to show that we won't always need the Emperor but when Horus "the best Primarch" fell to Chaos, the Emperor knew that it simply couldn't happen unless he was around. This is what the Grey Knights are and why it had to a pure genetic sample instead of an engineered one that they created. It is literally the Emperor admitting that he was wrong and Malcador was right, that humanity will always need the Emperor, that he is the only one that can protect humanity from corruption so he gave humanity one last gift, the means of making the purist Space Marines possible from a direct sample of DNA from the Emperor himself.
Psienesis wrote: ... the removal of the specifics of the Bloodtide incident doesn't remove the fact that the Sisters *are* more-pure than the GK. =p
Really? Seems to be 1-0 in GK's favor, no GKs have fallen to chaos like a certain Miriael Sabathiel, along with some Battle-Sisters
Not quite true. Codex: Chaos Demons has a story about The Changeling (a trickster Demon of Tzeentch), who causes shenanigans on some hive world by impersonating the Governor and other officials into inciting revolt and chaos worship. When warp portals open up and demons start pouring through, the Grey Knights show up to contain the demonic incursion. Eventually they realise The Changeling is impersonating senior officials and they track him to a huge fleet of a thousand refugee ships trying to flee the planet. Instead of risking The Changeling getting away, Stern orders the refugee fleet destroyed. But it turns out that everything that had happened on the planet was just a lead-up to this point, because a newly ordained Grey Knight watching the destruction of the refugees lets a seed of doubt into his mind.
It would seem that the Grey Knight brainwashing is not perfect. Tzeentch, being the master of intrigue and scheming, appears to have planned to lure a Grey Knight to chaos.
Psienesis wrote: ... the removal of the specifics of the Bloodtide incident doesn't remove the fact that the Sisters *are* more-pure than the GK. =p
Really? Seems to be 1-0 in GK's favor, no GKs have fallen to chaos like a certain Miriael Sabathiel, along with some Battle-Sisters
Not quite true. Codex: Chaos Demons has a story about The Changeling (a trickster Demon of Tzeentch), who causes shenanigans on some hive world by impersonating the Governor and other officials into inciting revolt and chaos worship. When warp portals open up and demons start pouring through, the Grey Knights show up to contain the demonic incursion. Eventually they realise The Changeling is impersonating senior officials and they track him to a huge fleet of a thousand refugee ships trying to flee the planet. Instead of risking The Changeling getting away, Stern orders the refugee fleet destroyed. But it turns out that everything that had happened on the planet was just a lead-up to this point, because a newly ordained Grey Knight watching the destruction of the refugees lets a seed of doubt into his mind.
It would seem that the Grey Knight brainwashing is not perfect. Tzeentch, being the master of intrigue and scheming, appears to have planned to lure a Grey Knight to chaos.
But they never say that he fell to Chaos, only that a seed of doubt was left. They left a cliff hanger specifically so that we could spend hours debating that very point...or at least it feels like they did.
Psienesis wrote: ... the removal of the specifics of the Bloodtide incident doesn't remove the fact that the Sisters *are* more-pure than the GK. =p
Really? Seems to be 1-0 in GK's favor, no GKs have fallen to chaos like a certain Miriael Sabathiel, along with some Battle-Sisters
Not quite true. Codex: Chaos Demons has a story about The Changeling (a trickster Demon of Tzeentch), who causes shenanigans on some hive world by impersonating the Governor and other officials into inciting revolt and chaos worship. When warp portals open up and demons start pouring through, the Grey Knights show up to contain the demonic incursion. Eventually they realise The Changeling is impersonating senior officials and they track him to a huge fleet of a thousand refugee ships trying to flee the planet. Instead of risking The Changeling getting away, Stern orders the refugee fleet destroyed. But it turns out that everything that had happened on the planet was just a lead-up to this point, because a newly ordained Grey Knight watching the destruction of the refugees lets a seed of doubt into his mind.
It would seem that the Grey Knight brainwashing is not perfect. Tzeentch, being the master of intrigue and scheming, appears to have planned to lure a Grey Knight to chaos.
But they never say that he fell to Chaos, only that a seed of doubt was left. They left a cliff hanger specifically so that we could spend hours debating that very point...or at least it feels like they did.
There's also the 'Silvered Knight' that came to Slaanesh and bowed at his knee's after surviving each and every decadent sin up to his throne.
Psienesis wrote: Genes are genes. You can be genetically traced to an ancestor many, many centuries dead. Since the Primarchs were created using the DNA of the Emperor, so, too, do all Space Marines share similar genetic material with the Emperor.
Taken as a whole, that line in the GK Codex doesn't make any sense. All Space Marines share a genetic link to the Emperor.
Which was my original point.
Furthermore, if the Emperor's body has no implants to make geneseed than it's just a derivative just like all the other geneseeds are, in short, a watered down version of him. The only difference is that there is no Primarch it's based on specifically. Which means while they can trace their lineage to him, it doesn't make them any closer to the Emperor than any other Marine, just less possible corruption in the geneseed itself.
Additionally, if it were the pure essence of the Emperor, then they really wouldn't need a lot of special training or selection and you'd be able to use just about any Psyker who could pass the Space Marine indoctrination process. After all, he was walking Chaos repellent and if they had even 1/10 his ability no Daemon would even be able to harm them, much less fight them.
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: There's also the 'Silvered Knight' that came to Slaanesh and bowed at his knee's after surviving each and every decadent sin up to his throne.
Indeed, and to date there have only been two people who've managed to survive in the Warp (and not be a person turned into a Daemon, or be living on a planet that's in the Warp, I mean full, unfiltered Immaterium on this): a little girl and her dog in the now defunct 5th Edition lore for Tzeentch, and Draigo. So if Grey Knights are the only ones strong of will enough to walk through the Warp, then it sounds a lot like a Grey Knight (and because of the nature of the Warp it could be a future event).
Psienesis wrote: Genes are genes. You can be genetically traced to an ancestor many, many centuries dead. Since the Primarchs were created using the DNA of the Emperor, so, too, do all Space Marines share similar genetic material with the Emperor.
Taken as a whole, that line in the GK Codex doesn't make any sense. All Space Marines share a genetic link to the Emperor.
Which was my original point.
Furthermore, if the Emperor's body has no implants to make geneseed than it's just a derivative just like all the other geneseeds are, in short, a watered down version of him. The only difference is that there is no Primarch it's based on specifically. Which means while they can trace their lineage to him, it doesn't make them any closer to the Emperor than any other Marine, just less possible corruption in the geneseed itself.
Additionally, if it were the pure essence of the Emperor, then they really wouldn't need a lot of special training or selection and you'd be able to use just about any Psyker who could pass the Space Marine indoctrination process. After all, he was walking Chaos repellent and if they had even 1/10 his ability no Daemon would even be able to harm them, much less fight them.
We don't actually know what goes into making a gene-seed, they never said how it was created off the genetics of the Primarchs after the Primarchs were scattered to the wind. I tackled why it is different with this in my previous post: "Yes but the genes that were used to make the Primarchs were manipulated to express certain traits and make them all individuals that they were. They were crafted to be an expression of certain key traits of the Emperor. Lorgar was the Emperor's voice, Magnus the Emperor's mind, etc so the genes may have been derived from the Emperor, they were different much like a child shares DNA from it's parents but it isn't an exact duplicate otherwise they would be a clone. The same goes for the Primarchs. Then the gene-seed was derived from the Primarchs to make the Legions so we are getting even more distant from the Emperor even before accounting for all the mutations that have happened to the gene-seed leading up to the 41st millennium. "
The Primarchs have the Emperor's base but are not the Emperor himself and have a variation from him. Also, the Primarchs also do not have a progenoid glands either yet the first gene-seed were developed from the DNA samples that the Emperor still had even though the Primarchs were gone so it isn't that hard to think that he could do it with his own DNA.
The Grey Knights are still not the Emperor themselves and still have the vestiges of their humanity but the Emperor's gene-seed heightens their abilities which is why their psychic abilities are an anathema to Chaos and why daemons can't touch the mind of a Grey Knight. Daemons have always had to talk to a Grey Knight to even try and corrupt them for that reason, you just can't force your way into a Grey Knights head, you have to appeal to their logic, their emotions and their latent humanity which is what happens to Alaric in his moment of doubt and how the Trickster put the seed of doubt into that fabled Grey Knight. None of them fell but they questioned things but that is a flaw innate in humans not the Emperor. Receiving a gene-seed makes you super-human and greatly improves your abilities but it doesn't make you into a clone of the source, otherwise every single Space Marine would of turned into a Primarch. Saying that this would be the case for the Grey Knights doesn't follow the logic of how a gene-seed works.
I find it surreal that someone is arguing that a group who has never fallen to chaos needs to slaughter innocents in order to protect them while they destroy chaos daemons.
By killing the sisters the gk weren't protecting themselves: they were becoming the very thing they were sworn to defeat. The idea that it helped them go on to destroy a bunch of daemons simply doesn't matter. Chaos is constantly warring with anyway.
That's why the story was dumb when it appeared and that's why it had to be removed. In just a couple paragraphs mr ward had completely destroyed the ethos of the grey knights. He may as well have written that they yelled "for the blood god" during the activities.
Envihon wrote: The Grey Knights are still not the Emperor themselves and still have the vestiges of their humanity but the Emperor's gene-seed heightens their abilities which is why their psychic abilities are an anathema to Chaos and why daemons can't touch the mind of a Grey Knight. Daemons have always had to talk to a Grey Knight to even try and corrupt them for that reason, you just can't force your way into a Grey Knights head, you have to appeal to their logic, their emotions and their latent humanity which is what happens to Alaric in his moment of doubt and how the Trickster put the seed of doubt into that fabled Grey Knight. None of them fell but they questioned things but that is a flaw innate in humans not the Emperor. Receiving a gene-seed makes you super-human and greatly improves your abilities but it doesn't make you into a clone of the source, otherwise every single Space Marine would of turned into a Primarch. Saying that this would be the case for the Grey Knights doesn't follow the logic of how a gene-seed works.
Basically then, geneseed doesn't matter then because beyond making them Space Marines it doesn't actually make them superior at fighting Daemons, nor does it make their powers any different, it's the training and mental conditioning that does that.
So even if it is derived from the Emperor directly (and at this point all we can really assume is that it's purer than the Primarch's Geneseeds due to never having been potentially touched by Chaos like they were), it's not pure enough to really make them better than any other Marine as a Marine, but just pure enough that it's not likely to suffer mutations later that can be exploited by Chaos.
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clively wrote: I find it surreal that someone is arguing that a group who has never fallen to chaos needs to slaughter innocents in order to protect them while they destroy chaos daemons.
By killing the sisters the gk weren't protecting themselves: they were becoming the very thing they were sworn to defeat. The idea that it helped them go on to destroy a bunch of daemons simply doesn't matter. Chaos is constantly warring with anyway.
That's why the story was dumb when it appeared and that's why it had to be removed. In just a couple paragraphs mr ward had completely destroyed the ethos of the grey knights. He may as well have written that they yelled "for the blood god" during the activities.
You do know that killing witnesses has been a part of the Grey Knight method for fighting Daemons prior to Ward ever touching the book, right? First war of Armegheddon ended with the Inquisition, Grey Knights vs the Space Wolves who didn't want the Guardsmen there to be killed for what they had seen and fought: namely a massive daemonic incursion. The Space Wolves felt that the IG earned the right to live, the =I= and Grey Knights tried to follow their containment procedure. This is actually a major part of Space Wolf lore on why they don't get along with the Inquisition (namely the Inquisition tried to hold Fenris hostage to get what they wanted).
Envihon wrote: The Grey Knights are still not the Emperor themselves and still have the vestiges of their humanity but the Emperor's gene-seed heightens their abilities which is why their psychic abilities are an anathema to Chaos and why daemons can't touch the mind of a Grey Knight. Daemons have always had to talk to a Grey Knight to even try and corrupt them for that reason, you just can't force your way into a Grey Knights head, you have to appeal to their logic, their emotions and their latent humanity which is what happens to Alaric in his moment of doubt and how the Trickster put the seed of doubt into that fabled Grey Knight. None of them fell but they questioned things but that is a flaw innate in humans not the Emperor. Receiving a gene-seed makes you super-human and greatly improves your abilities but it doesn't make you into a clone of the source, otherwise every single Space Marine would of turned into a Primarch. Saying that this would be the case for the Grey Knights doesn't follow the logic of how a gene-seed works.
Basically then, geneseed doesn't matter then because beyond making them Space Marines it doesn't actually make them superior at fighting Daemons, nor does it make their powers any different, it's the training and mental conditioning that does that.
So even if it is derived from the Emperor directly (and at this point all we can really assume is that it's purer than the Primarch's Geneseeds due to never having been potentially touched by Chaos like they were), it's not pure enough to really make them better than any other Marine as a Marine, but just pure enough that it's not likely to suffer mutations later that can be exploited by Chaos.
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clively wrote: I find it surreal that someone is arguing that a group who has never fallen to chaos needs to slaughter innocents in order to protect them while they destroy chaos daemons.
By killing the sisters the gk weren't protecting themselves: they were becoming the very thing they were sworn to defeat. The idea that it helped them go on to destroy a bunch of daemons simply doesn't matter. Chaos is constantly warring with anyway.
That's why the story was dumb when it appeared and that's why it had to be removed. In just a couple paragraphs mr ward had completely destroyed the ethos of the grey knights. He may as well have written that they yelled "for the blood god" during the activities.
You do know that killing witnesses has been a part of the Grey Knight method for fighting Daemons prior to Ward ever touching the book, right? First war of Armegheddon ended with the Inquisition, Grey Knights vs the Space Wolves who didn't want the Guardsmen there to be killed for what they had seen and fought: namely a massive daemonic incursion. The Space Wolves felt that the IG earned the right to live, the =I= and Grey Knights tried to follow their containment procedure. This is actually a major part of Space Wolf lore on why they don't get along with the Inquisition (namely the Inquisition tried to hold Fenris hostage to get what they wanted).
You misconstrued what I wrote. The gene-seed greatly enhances their abilities as psykers and with their purity. This can be easily seen with the Grey Knight Hyperion who was a Chaos tainted psyker from a crappy Hive City. After Ravenor gave the teenage psyker to the Black Ships, he was discovered by the Grey Knights and turned into a Grey Knight. Before he was merely a mirror psyker, able to just reflect the psychic powers of those around him. The latent psychic power was enough to make him a candidate for recruitment into the Grey Knights. Once having the gene-seed instilled in him, his true psychic potential is unlocked and he becomes a powerful Pyrokine with considerable power enough to possibly be considered to become a Librarian or even a Prognosticar which he later becomes after he learns proper control and discipline. This unlocking of Hyperion's latent psychic abilities wouldn't of happened without the gene-seed so it has a profound effect on their psychic abilities and resisting Chaos. It still takes practice and training to apply psychic powers effectively though so they still train. Just because you have an innate ability, doesn't mean you don't need to train it and become even better with it. It's what makes you good at something to become great at something.
And the Armageddon incident wasn't the Grey Knights fault. That one is entirely on the Inquisition. The Grey Knights made sure that the Space Wolves did everything in their power to keep the populace intact so that a purge wouldn't happen including making sure that no one saw the Grey Knights. Although things like that happen, the Grey Knights do everything possible to make sure it doesn't, they know the cost of it and it weighs heavily on them even more so because they are psykers and can feel as billions are snuffed from existence. When the Inquisition announced what was happening to the population of Armageddon even after they were shown to be cleared of taint, the Grey Knights had the same reaction as the Wolves did. The problem? The Grey Knights don't have the luxury of defying the Inquisition like the Wolves can. They had to follow orders. It's the reason why I play pure Grey Knights and don't have any Inquisitorial forces in my army anymore. One of the Grand Masters covers for the Lord Inquisitor even where Logan promptly removes his head. A great show of loyalty on the Grand Master's part but damn if the Inquisitor didn't deserve it.
All this I have talked about is in The Emperor's Gift. ADB does a great job sticking to source material for all sides of that conflict and I am glad they got him to write that GK novel.
Envihon wrote: You misconstrued what I wrote. The gene-seed greatly enhances their abilities as psykers and with their purity.
Conjecture and head canon at best. It's never stated that their geneseed actually does that. And if it did, I think we'd be seeing a lot more powerful Psykers than lvl 1 Brotherhoods.
Envihon wrote: This can be easily seen with the Grey Knight Hyperion who was a Chaos tainted psyker from a crappy Hive City. After Ravenor gave the teenage psyker to the Black Ships, he was discovered by the Grey Knights and turned into a Grey Knight. Before he was merely a mirror psyker, able to just reflect the psychic powers of those around him. The latent psychic power was enough to make him a candidate for recruitment into the Grey Knights. Once having the gene-seed instilled in him, his true psychic potential is unlocked and he becomes a powerful Pyrokine with considerable power enough to possibly be considered to become a Librarian or even a Prognosticar which he later becomes after he learns proper control and discipline. This unlocking of Hyperion's latent psychic abilities wouldn't of happened without the gene-seed so it has a profound effect on their psychic abilities and resisting Chaos. It still takes practice and training to apply psychic powers effectively though so they still train. Just because you have an innate ability, doesn't mean you don't need to train it and become even better with it. It's what makes you good at something to become great at something.
This is from a novel isn't it? I'm not dismissing it on that notion, but it has a lot less weight in my mind than anything that the Studio puts out, so I treat it less like actual proof and more like an entertaining "what if?"
Envihon wrote: And the Armageddon incident wasn't the Grey Knights fault.
Never said it ways, I just said that it's how they operate. It was an explicit part of canon in the past too that they killed anyone who wasn't considered important and mind wiped the rest. So I can't blame Ward for doing the same.
Envihon wrote: All this I have talked about is in The Emperor's Gift. ADB does a great job sticking to source material for all sides of that conflict and I am glad they got him to write that GK novel.
Hey may be not actively contradicting studio canon, but he's definitely building threads from things that are not codex lore.
I use the Black Library novels as a way to clarify what is in the Codex. As long as a novel doesn't blatantly contradict the Codices, like C.S. Goto did. Novels do something that the Codices can't, actually let us get inside the head of the people in the army or of some of the special characters that make up an army. A codex may give a list of deeds and history but never the personal motivations. A codex can't give that kind of detail, novels can.
I think dismissing the stuff Black Library and Forge World put out is loosing scope of the way all this fits together to create the background we all play in. It is the difference between Warhammer 40k and Warmachine for me. It creates more of a rich environment to play in. I think it would diminish things if we didn't consider it alongside the Codices for information about the universe.
To point out, most of the things we "know" about the Horus Heresy is directly from Black Library and Forge World so to let those factors way in but not the the novels that take place in the 41st millennium seems to me like it is a double standard. I know a lot of people are hesitant with letting in the Black Library stuff because of bad authors introducing bad fluff but they seem to have a better handle on it than GW did with 5th edition codices.
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Alpharius wrote: Is Janus still hinted at being You Know Who (or his Brother)?
Envihon wrote: I use the Black Library novels as a way to clarify what is in the Codex. As long as a novel doesn't blatantly contradict the Codices, like C.S. Goto did. Novels do something that the Codices can't, actually let us get inside the head of the people in the army or of some of the special characters that make up an army. A codex may give a list of deeds and history but never the personal motivations. A codex can't give that kind of detail, novels can.
I think dismissing the stuff Black Library and Forge World put out is loosing scope of the way all this fits together to create the background we all play in. It is the difference between Warhammer 40k and Warmachine for me. It creates more of a rich environment to play in. I think it would diminish things if we didn't consider it alongside the Codices for information about the universe.
Seeing as the offical studio policy is "everything and nothing is canon" I think it isn't that big of a deal. For the record though, I rank them as follows:
Studio > FW > BL > Headcanon/Fan theory/fan fiction
So it all fits in there, but I'm not going to assume that the BL is automatically the best source to expand the codexes since they rarely have input from the studio.
Envihon wrote: To point out, most of the things we "know" about the Horus Heresy is directly from Black Library and Forge World so to let those factors way in but not the the novels that take place in the 41st millennium seems to me like it is a double standard. I know a lot of people are hesitant with letting in the Black Library stuff because of bad authors introducing bad fluff but they seem to have a better handle on it than GW did with 5th edition codices.
Actually a lot of it came from the studio first, but FW is running with it by expanding those established events into playable campaigns and giving the participants working rulesets. Likewise the BL is doing the same, taking existing studio material, and spinning it their own way. Some of that way is pretty silly too.
ClockworkZion wrote:You're approaching it form the mindset of "what they don't mention doesn't change", when things get dropped it's annoying.
Initially, this approach was based on my (false) assumption that 40k actually had a canon, where everything - including old material - adds to the greater whole. Needless to say, I've since had to change this perception after hunting down quotes from the people who write the setting. In this process, however, I also stumbled over the design notes for the 3E Codex (printed in WD #292), where they explained that, yes, they are aiming for inter-edition consistency.
When opening a new codex I would expect to find the "from infancy" bit just as much as I'd expect a description of the Schola (which we didn't have in the 3E codex either, btw), the background story for how the Immolator was created, or a description of the Orders' organisation. We do not always get all of this, or sometimes any of this - but GW has been re-posting bits and pieces from old material time and time again. And I like that this approach actually gives me something to shape the setting with, for as you said, the 6th Edition book is ... quite lacking in content.
ClockworkZion wrote:I am not asking for just copy paste but rather to not mess with what works and then add to the overall story by filling in the gaps, and not all at the "Time of Ending".
... so are you complaining that the "from infancy" bit has not been mentioned everywhere since it was first published, or are you complaining they put it back in?
ClockworkZion wrote:I really wasn't speaking from a headcanon approach, but rather as a way it could have been done a lot better from the get go is all.
Sure, sure. I guess I just don't understand what all the commotion is about. I suppose it depends on how we interpret things - personally, I didn't need to read anything more (seeing as I filled in the blanks myself), and maybe the guys at GW just didn't expect anyone else to do so either - just like with the ME3 ending. For me, that was part of the fun; the ability to make up stuff yourself in a way that lets it look sensible to you as the individual reader.
Given how GW's portrayal of things has evolved over the decades, sometimes I actually wish they'd leave more blank spots for us to fill ourselves.
Envihon wrote:[...] Horus Heresy books and specifically Aaron Dembski-Bowden's (Who is overly careful to respect the fluff of the Codex and source material) The Emperor's Gift [...]
"I’ve read 40K novels that categorically violate my opinions and perceptions of how 40K works, and I have no trouble ignoring them afterwards. Similarly with some design studio sourcebooks, if I come across an idea that I find patently, uh, “in conflict” with my views (there’s some diplomacy for you), I’ll just ignore it and try not to write about it." -- Aaron Dembski-Bowden
An example of studio fluff that ADB is ignoring would be the lightning on the Night Lords' armour, where the newest codex says that it's actual Warp-fueled lightning, but where, as far as his novels were concerned, ADB said "feth this" and continued to write them as painted-on.
Which I actually agree with, because the real lightning was a dumb idea.
The HH novels are internally consistent (or at least they are supposed to be), but don't expect them to be 100% compatible to the stuff that the main studio is producing.
Which I actually like, because some stuff in the HH books was also a dumb idea.
Envihon wrote:Novels do something that the Codices can't, actually let us get inside the head of the people in the army or of some of the special characters that make up an army. A codex may give a list of deeds and history but never the personal motivations. A codex can't give that kind of detail, novels can.
I think dismissing the stuff Black Library and Forge World put out is loosing scope of the way all this fits together to create the background we all play in.
You're not operating by GW's manual here, though. This stuff is intentionally, specifically not meant to "fit together". The novels also do not really "let you get inside the heads of people", because then you'd have a 100% accurate account of what happened, but this is not how those books own writers explained it.
"The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths." -- Marc Gascoigne (Chief Editor Black Library)
BrianDavion wrote:hoenstly codexes of late have given me some reason to suspect GW's been working more closely with BL in terms of ensuring fluff matches up.
But Black Library is not internally consistent. Every author is writing for himself. It would be impossible for GW to ensure it matches up, until BL pulls a Disney and enforces its own canon policy, simultaneously discarding what has been published before.
It is of note that GW has been and probably always will be adopting select bits and pieces from BL material - whilst ignoring others. Perhaps you've spotted one such example where the studio writers thought it'd be worth including in a codex?
"If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books." -- Gav Thorpe
@Lynata: I was mostly just annoyed that the description of how Sisters are chosen isn't consistent from edition to edition in the codexes. I don't care that it was in a WD at one point, or that it's been brought back, it's just one of those things that I would like to see not change because it doesn't need to be. If anything I'd like it to be expanded on with more detail (like they did for Storm Troopers) but not changed to seem fundamentally different.
But given what little we 'know' of Janus in the new Codex?
It seems less likely...
...sadly!
what hints have there been of that?
Honestly if I was inclined to bet I'd be betting on Janus being Garro.
now what stands out for me is Janus is a roman god noted for having two faces. he's the god of beginnings and endings, of transition. which is... potentially intreasting. was his name chosen to be the antithesis of Krios Fateweaver perhaps?
He's over-powering Frauka's Untouchable nature while they're alone on the ship (a point is made in an earlier novel that nosebleeds are a common sign of active psychic effects), and is also, apart from the crew (who freak the feth out) the only other person aboard when Kys is sitting in the brig.
Zael had also been a flect addict, thus opening his mind to the Warp (as Thonius did, which is where Slyte got in).
Maybe not directly possessed, but definitely "reflecting" Slyte's growing presence. Also, iirc, speaks *of* Slyte to Frauka not long before Slyte's manifestation. Maybe he was simply "reflecting" Thonius, but this is still a really close association with a daemon.
... and all of this besides the fact that the Daniverse makes some pretty significant divergences from "Codex" 40k.
He's over-powering Frauka's Untouchable nature while they're alone on the ship (a point is made in an earlier novel that nosebleeds are a common sign of active psychic effects), and is also, apart from the crew (who freak the feth out) the only other person aboard when Kys is sitting in the brig.
Zael had also been a flect addict, thus opening his mind to the Warp (as Thonius did, which is where Slyte got in).
Maybe not directly possessed, but definitely "reflecting" Slyte's growing presence. Also, iirc, speaks *of* Slyte to Frauka not long before Slyte's manifestation. Maybe he was simply "reflecting" Thonius, but this is still a really close association with a daemon.
... and all of this besides the fact that the Daniverse makes some pretty significant divergences from "Codex" 40k.
[spoiler] he was a red herring, the deamonic posession was always Thonius. I imagine he was tested pretty heavily for any signs of taint. apparently the GKs didn't find any{/spoiler]
Well, it is official, the codex finally comes out and says that the Grey Knights are made with the Emperor's gene-seed. From the topic heading in the new 7th edition codex on page 7 entitled "In The Emperor's Image": "...a Grey Knight is the same as any other Space Marine - a potent solider of the Emperor's armies but nonetheless a mere shadow of his true potential. Few warriors since the Horus Heresy have matched the flawlessness of the Grey Knights, nor are any so closely linked to the Emperor. It is the unique quality that the Emperor possesses, the nature of his spirit that allows him to touch the warp, shape it to his will and yet remain beyond its madness, that he has gifted to the Grey Knights. Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity; their genetic integrity faded by hundreds of generations and thousands of years, given varying degrees of imperfection. Not so the Grey Knights, whose unblemished line reaches back to their maker in an unbroken chain"
So there we have it, the codex finally coming out and saying what it has been hinting to for quite awhile, the Grey Knights are indeed of the Emperor's gene-seed. Also the Grey Knights just straight up banish the Bloodtide without any help of the SoB, which aren't mentioned at all in the new codex.
Janus' true identity is only known to be of the original 8 Knights Errant but in the audio drama Mortarion's Heart, Mortarion tells Draigo that he feels personally betrayed by Janus so there is that large hint.
"Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity; their genetic integrity faded by hundreds of generations and thousands of years, given varying degrees of imperfection."
The Grey Knights geneseed is still 10k years old at this point too, and has just as many generations. That sentence doesn't make sense unless they have never harvested geneseed and are still somehow using the original unimplanted genseed from 10k years ago.
ClockworkZion wrote:I have an issue with this sentence:
"Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity; their genetic integrity faded by hundreds of generations and thousands of years, given varying degrees of imperfection."
The Grey Knights geneseed is still 10k years old at this point too, and has just as many generations. That sentence doesn't make sense unless they have never harvested geneseed and are still somehow using the original unimplanted genseed from 10k years ago.
To be fair, the Index Astartes article in WD #247 explained those imperfections to be the result of millennia of decline in technological know-how within a Chapter. Put loosely, those Tech-Priests and Apothecaries don't have as much of a clue about the stuff as the Emperor and his scientists used to have, and have introduced a ridiculous amount of ritualised nonsense into their Chapter-specific creation processes. Over time, this led to a degradation in quality, up to and including entire organs becoming inert.
Spoiler:
Although the Chapters are careful to select only the most suitable candidates, not all neophytes survive to become initiates. This is due in part to the degeneration of knowledge amongst the individual Chapters that makes screening procedures less effective than they once were. Nor are operational methods entirely satisfactory in some cases. In many Chapters implant surgery is heavily ritualised, and is often accompanied by scarring, incantation, periods of prayer, fasting and all sorts of mystical practices which compromise medical efficiency. For example, the Space Wolves' Phase 17 implant has slightly mutated so that Space Wolves' canine teeth continue to grow throughout their lives, turning them into vicious fangs over several centuries. The length of fangs is a source of Chapter it tradition, and is even part of their organisation, hence the veterans of their heavy weapons squads being known as Long Fangs.
Another Chapter about whom there is widespread rumour regarding their gene-seed are the Blood Angels. They often lapse into a battle-induced frenzy, known as the Black Rage, and can become berserk warriors who thirst for blood and raw flesh. The Blood Angels search eternally for a cure to the Curse of Sanguinius, but at the same time the Death Companies made up of such Marines are highly valuable shock troops, who are almost impervious to pain and rend apart their foes with their bare hands.
Another extreme example of gene-seed deterioration can be found in the Black Dragons Chapter, whose Ossmodula implant functions in an abnormal way. This leads to the growth of bony crests on the head, and blade-like protuberances from the forearm and elbow. Like the Death Company of the Blood Angels, warriors inflicted with such abnormal developments are formed into a separate fighting unit. Known as the Dragon Claws, they sharpen their additional protrusions and sheath them in adamantium to turn them into vicious close combat weapons.
If an implant fails to develop properly, it is likely that a Marine's metabolism will become badly out of synchronisation. He may fall into a catatonic state or suffer bouts of hyperactivity. In either event, he will probably die.
Those unfortunates that do not die almost invariably suffer mental damage, degenerating into homicidal maniacs or gibbering idiots. When a Chapter is at full strength these misfits may be put out of their misery. However, if the Chapter is short of Marines they are often allowed to live, and may be placed within their own special units. Those who display uncontrollably psychotic tendencies can be recruited into suicide assault squads.
Some Chapters deliberately foster such creatures, even going so far as to implant deformed zygotes into some initiates. This is very dangerous, and the practice is discouraged by Imperial edict. But old traditions die hard."
I know you dislike those older sources, but even if you regard them as optional it still poses one possible explanation for how that sentence you quoted might not be a contradiction: perhaps the Grey Knights, being under direct guidance of the Inquisition and close to Terra itself, just have better and more reliable tech that was not subjected to millennia of local customs and wacky trans-Mechanicus superstition.
ClockworkZion wrote:@Lynata: I was mostly just annoyed that the description of how Sisters are chosen isn't consistent from edition to edition in the codexes. I don't care that it was in a WD at one point, or that it's been brought back, it's just one of those things that I would like to see not change because it doesn't need to be. If anything I'd like it to be expanded on with more detail (like they did for Storm Troopers) but not changed to seem fundamentally different.
How was it changed to seem fundamentally different?
"they are raised from infancy in the Schola Progenium" is an expansion of "they are raised in the Schola Progenium". The expansion being the infancy-bit. Any expectations you may have developed about their recruitment age as a consequence of missing out on that 2E fluff are entirely a product of you filling in the blanks with your own ideas - only then does it qualify as a change, but not when looking solely at GW's material.
ClockworkZion wrote:@Lynata: I was mostly just annoyed that the description of how Sisters are chosen isn't consistent from edition to edition in the codexes. I don't care that it was in a WD at one point, or that it's been brought back, it's just one of those things that I would like to see not change because it doesn't need to be. If anything I'd like it to be expanded on with more detail (like they did for Storm Troopers) but not changed to seem fundamentally different.
How was it changed to seem fundamentally different?
"they are raised from infancy in the Schola Progenium" is an expansion of "they are raised in the Schola Progenium". The expansion being the infancy-bit. Any expectations you may have developed about their recruitment age as a consequence of missing out on that 2E fluff are entirely a product of you filling in the blanks with your own ideas - only then does it qualify as a change, but not when looking solely at GW's material.
It didn't really expand anything, it just took out the part about being orphans (which is a given in a Schola, but I can imagine some unwanted nobility being shoved off that way to make sure the child never takes power) and replaced it with "infancy" as their defining trait of choice. We're losing whole sections of old fluff in these codexes and it's pretty darn silly that it's happening.
Not to mention the descriptions of how they're chosen keep getting shorter. We're at what, a sentence, maybe two that defines the traits that are used now? I honestly would expect a page by now considering how in depth Space Marine chapter selections are described.
ClockworkZion wrote:It didn't really expand anything, it just took out the part about being orphans [...] and replaced it with "infancy" as their defining trait of choice.
It didn't take out anything, the word "orphans" is mentioned in the very same sentence, merely also repeating some old fluff that just hasn't been published in every edition.
If you believe that the "from infancy" bit is their defining trait, I suppose you have a point, but just being orphans has never been it, because they share this "defining" trait with every single Administratum clerk, Arbites grunt, and Naval petty officer that graduates from the Schola.
ClockworkZion wrote:I honestly would expect a page by now considering how in depth Space Marine chapter selections are described.
If you'd collect all fluff written by GW on this topic thus far, similar to how it was done with the Space Marines, I believe you could easily get a page. See my research here.
But it won't get printed until we get a proper Codex. An actual, full codex, with the Sisters as the only army. Like that one book we had almost two decades ago.
Maybe some day White Dwarf will feature a Liber Sororitas again, who knows?
Until then, all I could suggest would be to read up on the old fluff ... or, well, learn to live with what little we have now. The choice of what material you include in your interpretation of the 41st millennium is entirely up to you.
But given what little we 'know' of Janus in the new Codex?
It seems less likely...
...sadly!
what hints have there been of that?
Honestly if I was inclined to bet I'd be betting on Janus being Garro.
now what stands out for me is Janus is a roman god noted for having two faces. he's the god of beginnings and endings, of transition. which is... potentially intreasting. was his name chosen to be the antithesis of Krios Fateweaver perhaps?
[/spoiler]
Yes, and Alpha and Omega are the beginning and end of the greek alphabet, looking two ways like only A and O can....
Except that when Malcy found the 8, he took them straight to the Emperor. Big E was able to recognise Primarchs from systems away just through word of mouth. He probably took a look inside their heads too. There is no way Alpharius could slip the Emperor's notice, nor could anyone infiltrate the 12 Malcador gathered, such was the level of scrutiny they were under during selection. Malcador personally hand picked each member. There's no way he could mostake Alphy for a normal Legionary even with all his subterfuge, because Malcador would know who's who.
Furthermore, its pretty hard to fake psychic powers. I know each Primarch had latent ones but only Magnus and Lorgar actually engaged them.
The GK have always, always, ALWAYS used the blackest of magics and the darkest of sorceries to do what they do and be what they are. These are not Boy Scouts in power armor. No, these are all, each and every one, potent psykers with mastery of the Immaterium, steeped in the ancient lores of the Daemon, in all its many guises, armed with the tools of sorcery, warfare, and faith, to combat the Darkness Conceptual.
They maintain purity through these actions. If you want to apply a bit of Christian mythology to it, it is the blood of the innocent that washes away sins.
Exactly. Biggest misconception about Grey Knight "purity" or "immunity" is that they have some sort of OmniPower(tm) which makes them immune to anything Chaos. If this was true, they would be immune to all Chaos psychic powers and abilities - which they clearly are not. Hence there is absolutely no basis to assume they would be automatically immune to something like Bloodtide.
Grey Knights remain "pure" and "uncorrupted" because they are willing to go to any length to protect themselves from Chaos, including use of Sorcery. Sometimes it may necessite killing innocents so their blood can be used for protective spells or amulets. Sisters of Battle being more 'pure' likely has nothing to do with it - they were simply only 'innocents' available as everyone else was dead or corrupted.
The GK have always, always, ALWAYS used the blackest of magics and the darkest of sorceries to do what they do and be what they are. These are not Boy Scouts in power armor. No, these are all, each and every one, potent psykers with mastery of the Immaterium, steeped in the ancient lores of the Daemon, in all its many guises, armed with the tools of sorcery, warfare, and faith, to combat the Darkness Conceptual.
They maintain purity through these actions. If you want to apply a bit of Christian mythology to it, it is the blood of the innocent that washes away sins.
Exactly. Biggest misconception about Grey Knight "purity" or "immunity" is that they have some sort of OmniPower(tm) which makes them immune to anything Chaos. If this was true, they would be immune to all Chaos psychic powers and abilities - which they clearly are not. Hence there is absolutely no basis to assume they would be automatically immune to something like Bloodtide.
Grey Knights remain "pure" and "uncorrupted" because they are willing to go to any length to protect themselves from Chaos, including use of Sorcery. Sometimes it may necessite killing innocents so their blood can be used for protective spells or amulets. Sisters of Battle being more 'pure' likely has nothing to do with it - they were simply only 'innocents' available as everyone else was dead or corrupted.
Well, this point is moot because in the new codex it talks about the Bloodtide and the SoB have nothing to do with it anymore. The Grey Knights go in now and just straight up banish the Bloodtide. The new codex also goes into detail about how the Emperor's gene-seed conveys the Grey Knights the ability to mold the warp to their will without much risk of corruption. This makes them all but immune to Chaos. This is why Tzeentch has been the only one to even come close to "corrupting" a Grey Knight and he didn't do it through traditional means but did it by reasoning with the Grey Knight to make him question everything.
On the topic of the gene-seed of the Grey Knights remaining pure, there is a reason why only Paladins can be apothecaries. Every other Space Marine Chapter let's anyone who shows the aptitude to be an Apothecary but only the elite, the best of the best and the purist of the pure (Seriously, have you read what it takes to be a Paladin?) can be an Apothecary which lends itself to asking why? Why do the Grey Knights put such a huge restriction on this? Well, the answer it seems is to utterly preserve the purity of the Grey Knights. I know people get tired of hearing about the purity of the Grey Knights but it is apart of the thing that makes them Grey Knights the Grey Knights. They obsess about purity to the point of being a character fault and I personally like that aspect of them. They have a group of warriors called the Purifiers for Emperor's sake so to go along with this, is it that hard to imagine that the Grey Knights would have in place ways to keep their gene-seed utterly pure? Unlike the other Chapters, their gene-seed and genetic stocks are maintained on Titan, not with the Tech-Priests of Mars so they can put in place the measures they need to keep their gene-seed pure and it talks of ways of producing more gene-seed without needing the progenoid so unlike the other Chapters, they probably destroy progenoids that have lost their function since they have more waiting on Titan.
Lynata wrote: If you'd collect all fluff written by GW on this topic thus far, similar to how it was done with the Space Marines, I believe you could easily get a page. See my research here.
But it won't get printed until we get a proper Codex. An actual, full codex, with the Sisters as the only army. Like that one book we had almost two decades ago.
Stormtroopers got more than a page and their book is largely digital only (save for the small print run it saw). It could have been done now.
Deadshot wrote: Except that when Malcy found the 8, he took them straight to the Emperor. Big E was able to recognise Primarchs from systems away just through word of mouth. He probably took a look inside their heads too. There is no way Alpharius could slip the Emperor's notice, nor could anyone infiltrate the 12 Malcador gathered, such was the level of scrutiny they were under during selection. Malcador personally hand picked each member. There's no way he could mostake Alphy for a normal Legionary even with all his subterfuge, because Malcador would know who's who.
Furthermore, its pretty hard to fake psychic powers. I know each Primarch had latent ones but only Magnus and Lorgar actually engaged them.
It is speculated that Garro is Janus. James Swallow, who writes everything that deals with Garro, has gone on record saying that Garro isn't Janus and that Garro doesn't even become a Grey Knight but then in Mortarion's Heart, Mortarion talks to Draigo and says that Janus was not who Draigo thinks he was which at first would make you think it could of been Alpharius but the dialogue continues where Mortarion goes on to say that Janus' loyalty was in question because he turned his back on his brothers and Mortarion basically says that he feels personally betrayed by Janus which would hint to it being Garro since Garro was a Death Guard and a son of Mortarion before betraying his Legion by staying loyal to the Imperium. This still could fit with Alpharius being Janus but I interpret it as Garro being Janus. The way the characterized this scene, Mortarion actually appears hurt by the betrayal which does a great deal for you to sympathize with the Daemon Prince Primarch. I really love that audio drama and it saves Draigo's character as well before this new codex came out to make all that crappiness that came with 5th.
Honestly, so far it seems like Garro is one of the original 8 but the series on him hasn't progressed to the point where the 8 have been gathered so there is a good chance that Garro lives the rest of his days as Malcador's Knight Errant while gathering 8 others to become the founding members of the Grey Knights. We do know these characters are part of those 8 though: Tylos Rubio, an Ultramarines Librarian; Macer Varren of the World Eaters; Garviel Loken of the Luna Wolves; Iactan Qruze also of the Luna Wolves; Severian another Luna Wolf (Starting to see a pattern here...); Ares Voitek of the Iron Hands; Bror Tyrfingr of the Space Wolves (Irony!) and then there is Nathaniel Garro. There were others but they were killed leaving these 8 still alive so these are the 8 as of right now that we know are the Knights-Errant which will become the Grey Knights. Whether Malcador recruits others in future installments of the Horus Heresy is unknown at this point.
Envihon wrote:Well, this point is moot because in the new codex it talks about the Bloodtide and the SoB have nothing to do with it anymore. The Grey Knights go in now and just straight up banish the Bloodtide.
Omission does not always equal contradiction. Is anyone argueing there are no Whiteshields anymore because the current codex doesn't mention them? What about the Black Templars and the Vinculus Crusade?
ClockworkZion wrote:Stormtroopers got more than a page and their book is largely digital only (save for the small print run it saw). It could have been done now.
If the studio had any vested interest in this, yes. But arguably they don't.
The material is there, they just weren't willing to devote the resources. The ST 'dex is quite clearly of a much higher quality than the SoB one - in layout and content.
Deadshot wrote: Except that when Malcy found the 8, he took them straight to the Emperor. Big E was able to recognise Primarchs from systems away just through word of mouth. He probably took a look inside their heads too. There is no way Alpharius could slip the Emperor's notice, nor could anyone infiltrate the 12 Malcador gathered, such was the level of scrutiny they were under during selection. Malcador personally hand picked each member. There's no way he could mostake Alphy for a normal Legionary even with all his subterfuge, because Malcador would know who's who.
Furthermore, its pretty hard to fake psychic powers. I know each Primarch had latent ones but only Magnus and Lorgar actually engaged them.
It is speculated that Garro is Janus. James Swallow, who writes everything that deals with Garro, has gone on record saying that Garro isn't Janus and that Garro doesn't even become a Grey Knight but then in Mortarion's Heart, Mortarion talks to Draigo and says that Janus was not who Draigo thinks he was which at first would make you think it could of been Alpharius but the dialogue continues where Mortarion goes on to say that Janus' loyalty was in question because he turned his back on his brothers and Mortarion basically says that he feels personally betrayed by Janus which would hint to it being Garro since Garro was a Death Guard and a son of Mortarion before betraying his Legion by staying loyal to the Imperium. This still could fit with Alpharius being Janus but I interpret it as Garro being Janus. The way the characterized this scene, Mortarion actually appears hurt by the betrayal which does a great deal for you to sympathize with the Daemon Prince Primarch. I really love that audio drama and it saves Draigo's character as well before this new codex came out to make all that crappiness that came with 5th.
Honestly, so far it seems like Garro is one of the original 8 but the series on him hasn't progressed to the point where the 8 have been gathered so there is a good chance that Garro lives the rest of his days as Malcador's Knight Errant while gathering 8 others to become the founding members of the Grey Knights. We do know these characters are part of those 8 though: Tylos Rubio, an Ultramarines Librarian; Macer Varren of the World Eaters; Garviel Loken of the Luna Wolves; Iactan Qruze also of the Luna Wolves; Severian another Luna Wolf (Starting to see a pattern here...); Ares Voitek of the Iron Hands; Bror Tyrfingr of the Space Wolves (Irony!) and then there is Nathaniel Garro. There were others but they were killed leaving these 8 still alive so these are the 8 as of right now that we know are the Knights-Errant which will become the Grey Knights. Whether Malcador recruits others in future installments of the Horus Heresy is unknown at this point.
As you say, the series hasn't reached that point yet. And seeing as how neither Loken nor Qruze and to my knowledge Garro, are psykers, they can't be GK.
It is possible Mortarion was referring to another Daeth Guard member who was a Psyker.
Lynata wrote: Omission does not always equal contradiction.
Nor does it always mean it's still valid either. And to new players the things you were talking about mean nothing if they don't spend time learning about stuff that the codexes doesn't even list which makes it all a lot more convoluted to keep on top of than it should be.
ClockworkZion wrote:Stormtroopers got more than a page and their book is largely digital only (save for the small print run it saw). It could have been done now.
If the studio had any vested interest in this, yes. But arguably they don't.
The material is there, they just weren't willing to devote the resources. The ST 'dex is quite clearly of a much higher quality than the SoB one - in layout and content.
I believe there are people in the studio who do care, but the codex we got was an obvious rush job to placate us over the lack of an available codex for so long. It wasn't made with even half the care that it should ahve been and it shows.
I think that another major problem with the Bloodtide is how it completely doesn't fit. Blood being a shield against Chaos is not a thing. Furthermore, it was the Sisters' faith and purity that protected them - their blood is blood, and cannot have faith in anything. Chaos is made from thought, and so thoughts and emotions (such as devotion to The Emperor) can influence it. If anything, coating themselves in blood should have weakened them to the Bloodtide because it is heavily symbolic of Khorne.
Also, I find it seriously hard to believe that the blood of the faithful is a stronger shield than the Grey Knights' own faith (backed up by their well-known anti-daemon psychic powers) combined with the formidable magical protection afforded by their Aegis armour. It might be considered an impressive feat, but Castellan Crowe has wielded an extremely powerful daemon weapon for over a thousand years and has not succumbed to it, not even through corruption. I find it extremely hard to believe that the Grey Knights were incapable of resisting the Bloodtide.
As it was, the story came off as a dumb excuse to murder some Sisters, even when there were much better ways that same thing could be done. I am quite pleased that it is gone.
Regarding GW's treatment of the Sisters in terms of rulebooks, obscure portions of single Chapters of Space Marines (Clan Raukaan and Sentinels of Terra), along with single units from the Imperial Guard (Stormtroopers), get far more attention in both models and books. All because of "something something plastic sleeves"? I seriously doubt it.
I think that another major problem with the Bloodtide is how it completely doesn't fit. Blood being a shield against Chaos is not a thing. Furthermore, it was the Sisters' faith and purity that protected them - their blood is blood, and cannot have faith in anything. Chaos is made from thought, and so thoughts and emotions (such as devotion to The Emperor) can influence it. If anything, coating themselves in blood should have weakened them to the Bloodtide because it is heavily symbolic of Khorne.
You're taking it too literally, and are talking around it by your own points.
Yes, Chaos is very "conceptual" in its applications and practice. Faith/Belief is also very "conceptual" ("Proof denies faith."). It is not the literal fact of the blood that provides the shield, but the sympathetic aura of a group of extremely faithful innocents being martyred in this cause. Through their sacrifice, the sympathetic energies of their faith, combined with the sympathetic energies (all of these "energies" being actual manifestations within the Warp, in a sense) of the shedding of innocent blood, and being martyred in the cause of purity, is what creates that mystical shield.
Chaos is very much tied up into the ways and "rules" of magic, as shifting and mutable as they may be. This scenario is really no different.
There is no rest of that line. That's kind of why Khorne is usually the most powerful of the Gods. That's not the point, though.
The Grey Knights are meant to kill daemons and resist Chaos. It's their niche thing that they do better than anyone else (except, arguably, Harlequins/Solitaires). All of their feats against Chaos are rather unimpressive if something such as "the sympathetic aura of a group of extremely faithful innocents being martyred" is more powerful than they are, not to mention what this means for the power of the Bloodtide.
If the Bloodtide was this bad, why did they know that the blood would protect them? Or better yet, why didn't they just, you know, not walk in it? They could have just crashed a Storm Raven through the basilica and multi-melta'd Ka'jagga'nath to death. They could have done some protective ritual, uniting each Grey Knight's psychic strength into a single shield of purity. They could have brought Purifiers in, because this sort of thing is exactly their job. They could have done a lot of other things rather than somehow know that anointing themselves in blood would be a good idea and not just count as sacrifices to Khorne (the whole "betrayal" aspect of the slaughter makes it sound even more Khorne-esque).
If the writers ever wanted to give Sisters any credit, maybe they could have brought the Sisters in with them, using their immunity to the Bloodtide to clear a path. Shocking, I know, actually giving the Sisters any kind of active role. Even if the Knights had killed them all afterwards, it would have been a much better story.
I have a question that I just cannot seem to find an answer for. From my understanding Grey Knights don't recruit regular humans and then mod them the way other Space Marine chapters do, they recruit other SM. People keep saying this is why GK don't have scouts, all their guys are experienced marines already.
So do they somehow remove the original geneseed and replace it with their own? And is it the GK geneseed that is responsible for their psypowers? I thought human psykers were an uncontrollable, unreplicatible mutation? Although I do remember way back in 2nd edition the little fluff on the GK had you purchasing them as a unit of 5 and the entire unit were supposed to be clones (or cloned quintuplets?) which is why they were able to merge their more limited psychic abilities together to function as full psykers.
Or do the GK only recruit SM librarians, which I wouldn't think any SM chapter would be real happy about, and doesn't explain why they have such limited psychic ability later. Well, that also brings up the question of why characters don't have Brothehood of Psykers rule, or did they add that in 7th?
I have a question that I just cannot seem to find an answer for. From my understanding Grey Knights don't recruit regular humans and then mod them the way other Space Marine chapters do, they recruit other SM. People keep saying this is why GK don't have scouts, all their guys are experienced marines already.
No, that's the Deathwatch.
The GK recruit psykers and only psykers. They might poach recruits (not Scouts) from other Chapters if that recruit shows strong psychic abilities and other qualifications for service to the GK.
I have a question that I just cannot seem to find an answer for. From my understanding Grey Knights don't recruit regular humans and then mod them the way other Space Marine chapters do, they recruit other SM. People keep saying this is why GK don't have scouts, all their guys are experienced marines already.
No, that's the Deathwatch.
The GK recruit psykers and only psykers. They might poach recruits (not Scouts) from other Chapters if that recruit shows strong psychic abilities and other qualifications for service to the GK.
Exorcists for example hand over their more psychically talented recruits to the GKs (though they also have librarians, so I'm not sure what the exact rule on who gets tossed off and who stays is).
Probably depends on whether a GK is watching at the time, to be honest.
Anyway, the Sisters are represented in the new book in much the same way that people here are wishing they had been used in the Bloodtide. A pocket of Sisters (from a Minor Order), resisting a daemonic plague (This one a a Nurgle plague hijacked by a Tzeentch daemon) through faith alone, beating off cultists and lesser daemons in hand to hand to conserve ammunition for the real threats, until Draigo teleports in with his shiny knights and clears the walls. Draigo enlists the surviving Sisters (who have only suffered 80% losses, all to death and not corruption, in over a year of surviving on what's essentially a daemon world) to help him push through to the palace. On the way, he gets bogged down and nearly overwhelmed/killed by a Nurgle herald, before being rescued by the Sisters... who he then leaves to hold the line and let him confront the Daemon Prince of Nurgle and Greater Daemon of Tzeentch responsible.
Naturally, Draigo uses his teleport homer to get troops inside the ward the daemons set up to prevent him getting reinforcements (they only warded the door, d'oh!), the GDoT sacrifices the DPoN to escape, and everyone leaves happy. Except the Nurgle thing. But it's not like he had any hope for another outcome. And the GK, I guess, since they didn't get to kill the Tzeentch daemon. And the Sisters, who presumably died (we don't hear from them again).
Still, definitely some awesome Sisters and Tzeentch moments, and a wonderfully middle fingerish moment from Draigo when he teleports in Stern. Whole thing kind of feels like an apology for the Bloodtide, but I'm certainly not going to complain.
Furyou Miko wrote: Probably depends on whether a GK is watching at the time, to be honest.
Anyway, the Sisters are represented in the new book in much the same way that people here are wishing they had been used in the Bloodtide. A pocket of Sisters (from a Minor Order), resisting a daemonic plague (This one a a Nurgle plague hijacked by a Tzeentch daemon) through faith alone, beating off cultists and lesser daemons in hand to hand to conserve ammunition for the real threats, until Draigo teleports in with his shiny knights and clears the walls. Draigo enlists the surviving Sisters (who have only suffered 80% losses, all to death and not corruption, in over a year of surviving on what's essentially a daemon world) to help him push through to the palace. On the way, he gets bogged down and nearly overwhelmed/killed by a Nurgle herald, before being rescued by the Sisters... who he then leaves to hold the line and let him confront the Daemon Prince of Nurgle and Greater Daemon of Tzeentch responsible.
Naturally, Draigo uses his teleport homer to get troops inside the ward the daemons set up to prevent him getting reinforcements (they only warded the door, d'oh!), the GDoT sacrifices the DPoN to escape, and everyone leaves happy. Except the Nurgle thing. But it's not like he had any hope for another outcome. And the GK, I guess, since they didn't get to kill the Tzeentch daemon. And the Sisters, who presumably died (we don't hear from them again).
Still, definitely some awesome Sisters and Tzeentch moments, and a wonderfully middle fingerish moment from Draigo when he teleports in Stern. Whole thing kind of feels like an apology for the Bloodtide, but I'm certainly not going to complain.
yeah agreed, I read that event and I found myself grinning the whole time. it was a GREAT treatment for the sisters. sure they died but they went out like total heros. I'm REALLY hoping this event gets a novel treatment some day
That sounds surprisingly good, Miko. Much better than the last main event involving the Sisters and a Nurgle plague, which I can't seem to find, but goes a little like this:
"Oh no, there is a zombies! What do we do?" cry the Sisters, before making everything worse. Many die, but they continue to plead The Emperor to stop and take no affirmative action that helps in any way. Fortunately the Space Wolves arrive.
"Try shooting them." a Wolf says in his infinite wisdom.
ClockworkZion wrote:Nor does it always mean it's still valid either. And to new players the things you were talking about mean nothing if they don't spend time learning about stuff that the codexes doesn't even list which makes it all a lot more convoluted to keep on top of than it should be.
Technically speaking, it's always just as valid as what it says in a current edition codex. You as the individual gamer are free to ignore old fluff, just like you can ignore current fluff, or sort it based on its origin, or even mix and match.
There is no "absolute truth", just lots of options you can pick from. In the end, all I'm saying is that nobody should be surprised if GW is reprinting old fluff - even fluff that hasn't been published for several editions - because they've been doing this for 20 years now. The SoB codices are not an exception here, they are the rule. I've already provided other examples for this modus operandi.
And it could be argued that 40k is the least convoluted IP there is, simply because almost all of its background is entirely optional. Personally, I would much prefer a "hard" canon like Battletech, because I like consistency and a common ground to discuss things with fellow fans - but even I have to admit that then it'd get convoluted. Specifically because all that old stuff is no longer optional but indeed a fixed part of everyone's unified vision, "forcing" everyone to read up on everything that has been published, would they truly intend to keep on top of it, as you put it.
Frozen Ocean wrote:Regarding GW's treatment of the Sisters in terms of rulebooks, obscure portions of single Chapters of Space Marines (Clan Raukaan and Sentinels of Terra), along with single units from the Imperial Guard (Stormtroopers), get far more attention in both models and books. All because of "something something plastic sleeves"? I seriously doubt it.
I have to concur.
And what's the deal with SoB miniatures costing 150% as much as an equally-sized unit of metal IG, crafted from the exact same material? Almost feels like we're paying a boob tax.
Frozen Ocean wrote:All of their feats against Chaos are rather unimpressive if something such as "the sympathetic aura of a group of extremely faithful innocents being martyred" is more powerful than they are, not to mention what this means for the power of the Bloodtide.
Arguably it was not more powerful, as the Sisters were already getting overrun.
What the GKs did was using that blood as a "buff", to augment, not replace their own inherent abilities. As mentioned earlier, their knowledge and execution of such rituals may indeed be one part of the greater whole of what makes them such a powerful weapon against Chaos - and who can say how many of "all their feats" involved similar means? All the Bloodtide story meant was that if they have reason to believe that their standard resistance might be insufficient, then the Grey Knights are equipped and willing to go one step further in order to see their mission through.
Yes, the writers could have opted for some other resolution like an absolutely "clean" deus ex machina ritual that magically dissolves the Bloodtide and preserves the GKs purity without having to resort to some shocking twist about their methods. But then again what'd be the point of that fluff blurb - just to have yet another epic little story about the GKs going somewhere and kicking daemon butt, because people don't already know they are capable of doing so? They could've just as well not written anything at all.
Showcasing a blood ritual was the entire point of that entire fluff blurb. Not to portray yet again how awesome the GKs are, or how resistant the SoB are to Chaos. But to show that the GKs are unscrupulous when it comes to fighting Chaos. Because Grimdark.
One can disagree with / dislike the author's vision for the Grey Knights (and make use of 40k's policy of "pick your own canon" to dismiss it) ... but that doesn't mean that the story in itself has to be illogical (an expanded version could easily be written in a way that disqualifies all your alternate solutions, because the writer has that kind of ultimate power). It literally just means that it portrays the actors in a way people disagree with. Whether that makes the story bad or not is up to people's individual taste and preferences. Nothing more, nothing less.
For what it's worth, I can certainly understand the confusion, as the GKs haven't been portrayed this way up until that edition, so it did feel like a crass change to me too, even though it is just an expansion rather than a contradiction. One could accuse GW of evoking "false expectations" up to that point, perhaps.
Also, lol @ that Space Wolf story. Wasn't that from some Black Library novel? I recall Furyou Miko describing a book like that.
If you want to read a cool bit of studio fluff on the topic of Sisters vs Nurgle, I recommend the background of Sister Anastasia from GW's old Inquisitor game.
I wrote:Even if the Knights had killed them all afterwards, it would have been a much better story.
If the aim was to show the Knights are unscrupulous and dedicated purely to their goals, ending an otherwise "upbeat" story with executing their allies for <insert petty reason> is fine.
I think the main problem is that the tone of the story construes it not as the Grey Knights doing questionable things to meet an end, but almost like the Sisters are their enemy or just some unimportant resource, in spite of all the problems I mentioned with what this means for Chaos, the strength of the Knights and the Bloodtide. The Knights are capable of such things as banishing Greater Daemons (even Daemon Primarchs) and facing horrors that would cripple lesser minds.
I don't want the Grey Knights to feel guilt or be perfect "good guys", but I'd also prefer if the setting wasn't twisted to make their dark deeds seem like they were necessary or moral. It was written as though the Knights were a group of Flayed Ones who happened upon a group of harmless nuns but were still the good guys.
There's also the fact that it had to be Sisters. It couldn't be a convent of mortal believers, whose faith protected them from the Bloodtide. No, it had to be Sisters of Battle, because who likes them? They're the faction that only exists to get eaten by Plague-Orks, or churned into soup to act as a +1 to Resist Chaos.
It's in the Daemons book, I think, but there is that story where the Grey Knights fire upon an evacuating civilian force simply because The Changeling is on board one of them, even though it's a Daemon and won't last in the material world anyway. It's so grim that it gives pause to one of the Knights witnessing it, even as his superior explains why. That sort of thing is perfect to show "that the GKs are unscrupulous when it comes to fighting Chaos".
But then again what'd be the point of that fluff blurb - just to have yet another epic little story about the GKs going somewhere and kicking daemon butt, because people don't already know they are capable of doing so? They could've just as well not written anything at all.
They do, though. We always get different stories portraying the same message; Space Marines are badass, Marneus Calgar is a "tactical genius", Eldrad is tricky, Grey Knights are ultra-badass (most of the stories in their book are just different flavours of them kicking daemon ass, and that's fine). I'm not going to read the book again, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were enough "the Knights are grimdark" stories in there, too.
Frozen Ocean wrote:If the aim was to show the Knights are unscrupulous and dedicated purely to their goals, ending an otherwise "upbeat" story with executing their allies for <insert petty reason> is fine.
But they were already doing that. And it wouldn't have conveyed the idea of "fighting fire with fire", which I think was the purpose of that story bit. Perhaps dismantling that idea of the GKs as the "shining knights" and pinnacles of purity, and instead driving home the point of there being a contradiction between what the represent / look like, and what they do. A subversion of their popular image, if you will.
Frozen Ocean wrote:I don't want the Grey Knights to feel guilt or be perfect "good guys", but I'd also prefer if the setting wasn't twisted to make their dark deeds seem like they were necessary or moral.
Ah, but that depends on how you interpret that story. Who knows if that blood sacrifice was truly necessary? In the end, stuff like that is impossible to measure and scientifically analyse. The GKs acted like they did because it said so in some book. That doesn't necessarily mean that the whole thing actually had any effect. Or, and I think this is how I currently feel about it, the key was in the GKsbelieving this would have an effect. Kind of like the Orks' Waaagh field. With the GKs being psykers, their perception of reality can easily become reality. Basically, placebo-effect. (placeblood?)
It all comes down to how you want to see it.
Frozen Ocean wrote:There's also the fact that it had to be Sisters. It couldn't be a convent of mortal believers, whose faith protected them from the Bloodtide. No, it had to be Sisters of Battle, because who likes them?
I think that the Sisters as "whipping girls" is more of a problem with Black Library novels. From studio material, I am used a much better representation. See the Black Templars' codex story about the Vinculus Crusade, for example.
And really, in such a situation ... which group in 40k is more faithful than the Sisters? They were the logical choice here.
Frozen Ocean wrote:They do, though. We always get different stories portraying the same message; Space Marines are badass, Marneus Calgar is a "tactical genius", Eldrad is tricky, Grey Knights are ultra-badass (most of the stories in their book are just different flavours of them kicking daemon ass, and that's fine). I'm not going to read the book again, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were enough "the Knights are grimdark" stories in there, too.
Sure, sure. All I'm saying is that some of those little fluff blurbs might (and in my opinion often are) about more than just letting a faction look badass. The bits about Marneus Calgar and Eldrad are good examples, actually, after all this is supplemental information.
Frozen Ocean wrote: That sounds surprisingly good, Miko. Much better than the last main event involving the Sisters and a Nurgle plague, which I can't seem to find, but goes a little like this:
"Oh no, there is a zombies! What do we do?" cry the Sisters, before making everything worse. Many die, but they continue to plead The Emperor to stop and take no affirmative action that helps in any way. Fortunately the Space Wolves arrive.
"Try shooting them." a Wolf says in his infinite wisdom.
Ah, yes. Blood of Asaheim.
As for the Knights... I'm kind of glad that we can just spend 300 points to field them as they should be fielded (a single squad teleporting in because daemons!) again at last.
Deadshot wrote: Except that when Malcy found the 8, he took them straight to the Emperor. Big E was able to recognise Primarchs from systems away just through word of mouth. He probably took a look inside their heads too. There is no way Alpharius could slip the Emperor's notice, nor could anyone infiltrate the 12 Malcador gathered, such was the level of scrutiny they were under during selection. Malcador personally hand picked each member. There's no way he could mostake Alphy for a normal Legionary even with all his subterfuge, because Malcador would know who's who.
Furthermore, its pretty hard to fake psychic powers. I know each Primarch had latent ones but only Magnus and Lorgar actually engaged them.
It is speculated that Garro is Janus. James Swallow, who writes everything that deals with Garro, has gone on record saying that Garro isn't Janus and that Garro doesn't even become a Grey Knight but then in Mortarion's Heart, Mortarion talks to Draigo and says that Janus was not who Draigo thinks he was which at first would make you think it could of been Alpharius but the dialogue continues where Mortarion goes on to say that Janus' loyalty was in question because he turned his back on his brothers and Mortarion basically says that he feels personally betrayed by Janus which would hint to it being Garro since Garro was a Death Guard and a son of Mortarion before betraying his Legion by staying loyal to the Imperium. This still could fit with Alpharius being Janus but I interpret it as Garro being Janus. The way the characterized this scene, Mortarion actually appears hurt by the betrayal which does a great deal for you to sympathize with the Daemon Prince Primarch. I really love that audio drama and it saves Draigo's character as well before this new codex came out to make all that crappiness that came with 5th.
Honestly, so far it seems like Garro is one of the original 8 but the series on him hasn't progressed to the point where the 8 have been gathered so there is a good chance that Garro lives the rest of his days as Malcador's Knight Errant while gathering 8 others to become the founding members of the Grey Knights. We do know these characters are part of those 8 though: Tylos Rubio, an Ultramarines Librarian; Macer Varren of the World Eaters; Garviel Loken of the Luna Wolves; Iactan Qruze also of the Luna Wolves; Severian another Luna Wolf (Starting to see a pattern here...); Ares Voitek of the Iron Hands; Bror Tyrfingr of the Space Wolves (Irony!) and then there is Nathaniel Garro. There were others but they were killed leaving these 8 still alive so these are the 8 as of right now that we know are the Knights-Errant which will become the Grey Knights. Whether Malcador recruits others in future installments of the Horus Heresy is unknown at this point.
As you say, the series hasn't reached that point yet. And seeing as how neither Loken nor Qruze and to my knowledge Garro, are psykers, they can't be GK.
It is possible Mortarion was referring to another Daeth Guard member who was a Psyker.
The thing is for the original 8, they weren't looking for psykers specifically, just Space Marines of great moral character which is why a lot of Traitor Marines got recruited into the Knights-Errant by staying loyal they showed that they are easily swayed. Back then the psyker part wasn't needed, and I think it is something that comes later. Now that they confirmed that it is indeed the Emperor's gene-seed being used, they also discuss how it gives them power over the warp which hints to the fact that this gene-seed has the capability of making someone into a psyker much like the way this happens to the Blood Ravens when their recruits go from not being a psyker to a psyker after the gene-seed has done it's work. When given to a psyker, it takes their ability and greatly enhances it which is why even just a normal Grey Knight is a better psyker than senior Librarians other chapters.
This is all speculation though about whether they chose to just allow the gene-seed do its thing and allow the non-psykers to become Grey Knights or if they were restrictive with the first 8.
BrianDavion wrote: apparently they do choose psykers, but weather or not the psykers they choose are very powerful is another question
They get the first pick of the psykers off the Black Ships when they come to Terra so they choose the best. To become a Grey Knight, you are literally tortured mentally and physically to see if you can endure to be a Grey Knight which means psychic tests as well. Not just any psyker can become a Grey Knight.
Considering we're talking about ~two decades of fluff, GW has been amazingly consistent, compared to other franchises.
What "muddles the waters" is mainly the licensed products (mostly Black Library novels), where individual freelance authors take it upon themselves to fill in the blanks GW has left open for player imagination. So if the main GW studio ever fills those blanks themselves, there's a fairly high chance of a contradiction. To people who perceive the novels etc as adding to the greater whole of the IP, it then makes it look like a general lack of consistency.
The glaring inconsistancies such as the such small things like the loss of the slann, change in ork genders, loss of squats and so on and so forth make it one of the least consistant fluff in the game market. I think a lot of this is due to it being based on itself. For example, star trek stuff was based on a pre-set fluff that the game designers had to work with. the same for some others such as star wars are the same way. True, there are a few who are less consistant but they are generally the smaller outfits doing so to try to keep their heads above water.
Who says the slann are lost? Squats still exist, too, didn't you see them in the 6th edition rulebook? And omission is not contradiction.
Ever since the big reconstruction from 1st to 2nd edition, the setting is quite constant when it comes to GW's own books. True, there have been a number of changes, but you could say the same about ST and SW. What I consider important is that they were the exception rather than the rule.
The only thing of note would be the change in ork genders, but I've never heard of them having any. What's the source of that?
Honestly the only other table top setting whose lore I've dived into as much as 40k has been battletech, and it's got as many inconsistancies and retcons as 40k does.
One thing 40k does that makes the inconsistancies a bit more obvious is they write sort of a "third person omniescant" viewpoint. If I ever became the guy in charge of the "40k design team" I'd switch the viewpoint of codexes to a "direct in character report" thus allowing greater wiggle room for errors etc
This is where playing the game from the very beginning (rogue trader show many of the inconsistencies. a lot of the players who came into the hobby later are not aware of many of the changes such as the loss of the slann (that sort of ommission is indeed a change), the killing off of the squats, ork sexes (see the old ork books) brain boyz (again see the old books and you will gain a lot more respect for the snotlings), structures of the armies, addition of new units and loss of older units and changes in weaponry. Overall one of the least constant fluffs about as even these few changes listed demonstrate.
Like I said though, it is based on itself so they can do as they wish. Other games are based on a "set" fluff that s often owned by other outside forces so they are forced to keep it constant (star treck, star wars and so forth).
Overall though, 40k gamers have pretty well learned to roll with the punches.
To get this slightly back on track, anyone else find it interesting that the Grey Knights start their careers in Terminator armor and then move onto other squads after that? Just read it in the codex and thought that was interesting since all other Space Marines, Terminator Honors is a huge thing that has to be earned and the Grey Knights are like that is where our newbies start.
Envihon wrote: To get this slightly back on track, anyone else find it interesting that the Grey Knights start their careers in Terminator armor and then move onto other squads after that? Just read it in the codex and thought that was interesting since all other Space Marines, Terminator Honors is a huge thing that has to be earned and the Grey Knights are like that is where our newbies start.
Well Space Wolves put their trainees in Power Armor and give them jump packs and bikes while their vets (not counting those inducted into the Wolf Guard) wear Scout armor. So going at it in reverse doesn't seem too weird to me.
Besides, Grey Knights need to be well trained on the use of Terminator armor and attacking after teleporting in. They often have to launch surgical strikes into the thickest parts of daemonic incursions so it just makes sense for what they do in an odd way.
Envihon wrote: To get this slightly back on track, anyone else find it interesting that the Grey Knights start their careers in Terminator armor and then move onto other squads after that? Just read it in the codex and thought that was interesting since all other Space Marines, Terminator Honors is a huge thing that has to be earned and the Grey Knights are like that is where our newbies start.
Grey Knights are fully trained in both TDA and PA before they ever reach the first battle. Their brother Captain simply tells them whether or not they want the Knight to serve as a Terminator or Strike/Interceptor. Once they prove their worth and steadfastness they may be given a chance in a Purgation Squad. Showing a purity of spirit so great it literally shines out, will earn entry to the Purifiers, while completing the challenges of the Paladin Trials will see you elevated to Paladin status. The Bro-Caps are generally chosen from the Paladins but on occassion once of the Brotherhood. The Captain is then promoted to Grand Master when he's ready. Then Supreme Grand Master.
Techmarines are chosen and sent to Mars.
Libbies are those who show to be psykers above the others. Whereas even Draigo may only be a Gamma-level psyker the average Grey Knight Librarian would be a Beta.
Brotherhood Champions are those who set aside everything to become a master swordsman. Its a choice.
And finally, Dreadknight pilots are those with the skill, psychic prowess and general Knight-ness to do so.
Envihon wrote: To get this slightly back on track, anyone else find it interesting that the Grey Knights start their careers in Terminator armor and then move onto other squads after that? Just read it in the codex and thought that was interesting since all other Space Marines, Terminator Honors is a huge thing that has to be earned and the Grey Knights are like that is where our newbies start.
Grey Knights are fully trained in both TDA and PA before they ever reach the first battle. Their brother Captain simply tells them whether or not they want the Knight to serve as a Terminator or Strike/Interceptor. Once they prove their worth and steadfastness they may be given a chance in a Purgation Squad. Showing a purity of spirit so great it literally shines out, will earn entry to the Purifiers, while completing the challenges of the Paladin Trials will see you elevated to Paladin status. The Bro-Caps are generally chosen from the Paladins but on occassion once of the Brotherhood. The Captain is then promoted to Grand Master when he's ready. Then Supreme Grand Master.
Techmarines are chosen and sent to Mars.
Libbies are those who show to be psykers above the others. Whereas even Draigo may only be a Gamma-level psyker the average Grey Knight Librarian would be a Beta.
Brotherhood Champions are those who set aside everything to become a master swordsman. Its a choice.
And finally, Dreadknight pilots are those with the skill, psychic prowess and general Knight-ness to do so.
According to the new codex, they get their first battle in Terminator armor until they are proficient enough with teleporting before they are allowed regular power armor. On pg. 14 of the new codex "Grey Knight Terminator Squads are the mainstay of the Chapter. Heavily armored warriors armed with storm bolters and a variety of Nemesis force weapons, these formidable warriors are the forefront of any Grey Knight attacks. These are also the first weapons a battle-brother must master when he completes his initial training, learning to move in the bulk of Terminator armor with speed and grace..." So they don't learn to be the other things before put into Terminator armor, they are in a Terminator squad until they have proven themselves.
I've read through all of the posts defending and explaining the Khornate Knights fluff. I still think it was a bloody ridiculous story and I'm glad we're rid of it. That story was some straight up CS Goto brand of throw-up.
I half expected there to be a paragraph about fist bumping with powerfists because that would be "like totally awesome" in there somewhere.
As Brother Kevin slopped his helmet in the most excellent blood of the virgins, he turned to Brother Joseph with a beaming smile.
"- Yo Broseph, you mind getting my back? Can't quite reach.
"- Aww, Bro, I've got your back. No homo!
"-AAAH, That's funny, bro!
And they clanked their bloodied powerfists together, leaving only the deafening peal of the most brofficient monster brofist to ever ring through the nether. Demons cringed at the sound and a single tear of pride fell from a distant demon portal where Draigo stood hearing the clear sound.
I know, and I actually wrote a disclaimer for that, but I deleted it, because I wanted to see if anyone was gonna correct me about it CS Goto doesn't care what we have or not. In poor fluff the aforementioned fists were probably also multilasers.
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
