So while reading the fluff and BL novels I realized SM aren't even human after all the psycho-indoctrination and augmenting. There anatomy is already completely inhuman and it seems their training has suppressed or outright removed certain basic human emotions and a lot of their instincts. Just wondering what people think of this.

Genetically they are still human. The only thing that qualifies as a "true" posthuman are techpriests.

It depends on your definition of human.
If you give a human some extra organs and indoctrinate him, is he not a human anymore?

their genetics are different, their organs are different, their physical capabilities are different, and they are unable to have children.

They are modified humans that have things and can do things that no normal human can.

so no they really aren't human.

I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
their genetics are different, their organs are different, their physical capabilities are different, and they are unable to have children.

They are modified humans that have things and can do things that no normal human can.

so no they really aren't human.

They still have their own genetics, can't change that. They have additional organs, not different ones. The heart, stomach, lungs, intestines, liver and kidneys are all their own, born with them. The third point? What, you saying a professional strongman who can lift cars is not human? Finally, it has never been proven they are incapable, just lack desire.

They are modified humans being the key term. You have to be human to be a modified human.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

Anyone can train themselves to ignore their fear or survival instincts. Most special forces and even regular soldiers are trained to ignore the fear to do the job.
Emotions? Anyone can supress emotions or just lack them from birth. What emotions? Love? They love the Emperor and their brothers. Happiness? The galaxy is at war, you can be happy when its free.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
their genetics are different, their organs are different, their physical capabilities are different, and they are unable to have children.

They are modified humans that have things and can do things that no normal human can.

so no they really aren't human.

They still have their own genetics, can't change that. They have additional organs, not different ones. The heart, stomach, lungs, intestines, liver and kidneys are all their own, born with them. The third point? What, you saying a professional strongman who can lift cars is not human? Finally, it has never been proven they are incapable, just lack desire.

They are modified humans being the key term. You have to be human to be a modified human.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

Anyone can train themselves to ignore their fear or survival instincts. Most special forces and even regular soldiers are trained to ignore the fear to do the job.
Emotions? Anyone can supress emotions or just lack them from birth. What emotions? Love? They love the Emperor and their brothers. Happiness? The galaxy is at war, you can be happy when its free.

yes they are genetically different look at this

"Gene-seed is the colloquial term used amongst the Adeptus Astartes for the genetic material that allows for the creation of the super human Space Marines. The gene-seed is actually those germ cells and viral machines that have been genetically-engineered to develop into the various organs that are implanted into a normal human adolescent male to transform him into a Space Marine." taken from here.

these viruses change destroy mutate and inject their own dna into the dna of the space marines thereby changing their genetic makeup. For example the human genome is made up of many viruses, in fact they are very important to our genetic code for example genetic diseases are inherited by most if not all humans.

Viruses are instrumental in evolution and a single virus led to the creation of us.

the addition of these viruses and the vast difference in capabilities compared to normal humans means that it is safe to assume that the genetic makeup is significantly different enough that they are no longer human. There is further evidence of this in that space marines have never had a single child, (even with all the space wolf whoring). A species must be able to reproduce with itself, so if space marines are unable to have children, then their genetic makeup is much too different to accommodate a child. Since their genetic makeup is too different to allow for reproduction with a normal human, they by definition cannot be human.

They still have their own genetics, can't change that. They have additional organs, not different ones. The heart, stomach, lungs, intestines, liver and kidneys are all their own, born with them. The third point? What, you saying a professional strongman who can lift cars is not human? Finally, it has never been proven they are incapable, just lack desire.

They have a whole lot of extra organs that no human being is born with. They can spit acid, and they can devour parts of a sentient being's body and gain memories and genetic comprehension of it. That's just two of them.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.VAds_VduXbY

And, yes, you *can* change genetics. That's the whole point behind geneseed implantation and the primogen glands.

Yes they are human. The are a subspecies of human at best.

They're classified as Homo Astartes, a distinct subspecies. They're super humans. So human, but also not.

Not really. They're superhuman. Bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, etc. Think Captain America, humans are Steve Rogers before the serum and Marines are Rogers after the serum, and instead of a fancy shield (well, sometimes a shield, too) you get a full suit of armour. Or the Spartan program from the Halo franchise... you get the idea. So they're "sort of" humans but they exist alongside "normal" humans and are therefore superhuman.

Their DNA is not altered. Gene-seed is used to create several organs that are implanted into the Marine, not grown within their own body. Think of the implants as no different to cybernetic implants that are created from an STC, because it's quite similar. What turns a Marine into a Marine is the processes of those implanted organs, which mostly create engineered hormones.

By the way, a Tech-Priest who has removed their entire body and replaced most of their brain with computer parts is still one hundred percent human. "Transhuman" is not a species, either is "superhuman". Both just refer to a human being whose body is beyond the capabilities of normal humans.

 Sledgehammer wrote:


these viruses change destroy mutate and inject their own dna into the dna of the space marines thereby changing their genetic makeup. For example the human genome is made up of many viruses, in fact they are very important to our genetic code for example genetic diseases are inherited by most if not all humans.

Viruses are instrumental in evolution and a single virus led to the creation of us.

You greatly misunderstand what a virus is.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

the addition of these viruses and the vast difference in capabilities compared to normal humans means that it is safe to assume that the genetic makeup is significantly different enough that they are no longer human. There is further evidence of this in that space marines have never had a single child, (even with all the space wolf whoring). A species must be able to reproduce with itself, so if space marines are unable to have children, then their genetic makeup is much too different to accommodate a child. Since their genetic makeup is too different to allow for reproduction with a normal human, they by definition cannot be human.

That is not the definition of a species. Even if it was, your logic is flawed. You're saying that their DNA is altered (which would make them their own species) and that a species must be able to reproduce, but Space Marines can't. Are you suggesting that Space Marines aren't even organisms? Also, them not being able to have children has nothing to do with their "genetic makeup being too different" (as would be the case with, say, dogs and cats), but due to a probable lack of reproductive organs.

 Psienesis wrote:

They have a whole lot of extra organs that no human being is born with.

They aren't born with them. The whole process of gene-seed harvesting and organ implantation would be entirely moot if you could just take a DNA sample from any Marine and clone them from scratch. Literally the only effort required would be to supply the growing Astartes with nutrients and some sort of embryonic growth chamber. They could be manufactured en masse with great ease.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

Nothing "makes us human" other than our genetics. Every single one of the various forms of Mechanicus pseudo-robot are human. Servitors, Thallax, even Servo-Skulls. All are human. You suggest that people who do not have the expected measure of human psychology are actually not human; braindead people, insane people, and so on.

They aren't born with them. The whole process of gene-seed harvesting and organ implantation would be entirely moot if you could just take a DNA sample from any Marine and clone them from scratch. Literally the only effort required would be to supply the growing Astartes with nutrients and some sort of embryonic growth chamber. They could be manufactured en masse with great ease.

If cloning technology was so simple in 40K, which it isn't. Though Fabius Bile seems to have it down pretty well.

Nothing "makes us human" other than our genetics. Every single one of the various forms of Mechanicus pseudo-robot are human. Servitors, Thallax, even Servo-Skulls. All are human. You suggest that people who do not have the expected measure of human psychology are actually not human; braindead people, insane people, and so on.

This is the Imperium. There's all kinds of things that can make a certain class of people "not human".

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Their DNA is not altered. Gene-seed is used to create several organs that are implanted into the Marine, not grown within their own body. Think of the implants as no different to cybernetic implants that are created from an STC, because it's quite similar. What turns a Marine into a Marine is the processes of those implanted organs, which mostly create engineered hormones.

By the way, a Tech-Priest who has removed their entire body and replaced most of their brain with computer parts is still one hundred percent human. "Transhuman" is not a species, either is "superhuman". Both just refer to a human being whose body is beyond the capabilities of normal humans.

 Sledgehammer wrote:


these viruses change destroy mutate and inject their own dna into the dna of the space marines thereby changing their genetic makeup. For example the human genome is made up of many viruses, in fact they are very important to our genetic code for example genetic diseases are inherited by most if not all humans.

Viruses are instrumental in evolution and a single virus led to the creation of us.

You greatly misunderstand what a virus is.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

the addition of these viruses and the vast difference in capabilities compared to normal humans means that it is safe to assume that the genetic makeup is significantly different enough that they are no longer human. There is further evidence of this in that space marines have never had a single child, (even with all the space wolf whoring). A species must be able to reproduce with itself, so if space marines are unable to have children, then their genetic makeup is much too different to accommodate a child. Since their genetic makeup is too different to allow for reproduction with a normal human, they by definition cannot be human.

That is not the definition of a species. Even if it was, your logic is flawed. You're saying that their DNA is altered (which would make them their own species) and that a species must be able to reproduce, but Space Marines can't. Are you suggesting that Space Marines aren't even organisms? Also, them not being able to have children has nothing to do with their "genetic makeup being too different" (as would be the case with, say, dogs and cats), but due to a probable lack of reproductive organs.

 Psienesis wrote:

They have a whole lot of extra organs that no human being is born with.

They aren't born with them. The whole process of gene-seed harvesting and organ implantation would be entirely moot if you could just take a DNA sample from any Marine and clone them from scratch. Literally the only effort required would be to supply the growing Astartes with nutrients and some sort of embryonic growth chamber. They could be manufactured en masse with great ease.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

Nothing "makes us human" other than our genetics. Every single one of the various forms of Mechanicus pseudo-robot are human. Servitors, Thallax, even Servo-Skulls. All are human. You suggest that people who do not have the expected measure of human psychology are actually not human; braindead people, insane people, and so on.

I tend to think of the space marines more like mules in this case. Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia page on mules.

"Mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes, a mixture of the horse's 64 and the donkey's 62. The different structure and number usually prevents the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos, rendering most mules infertile.

There are no recorded cases of fertile mule stallions. A few mare mules have produced offspring when mated with a purebred horse or donkey.[13] Herodotus gives an account of such an event as an ill omen of Xerxes' conquest of Greece in 480 BC: "There happened also a portent of another kind while he was still at Sardis,—a mule brought forth young and gave birth to a mule" (Herodotus The Histories 7:"

im not saying that space marines are not organisms, only that they cannot reproduce.

oh yes and viruses are essentially little capsules full of dna that invade cells and utilize the cells organs to replicate.

Would homo sapiens even exist by then? or would it be some sort of other species. assuming you believe in evolution... or is that heresy?

Joking aside, they would still be humans. just incredibly indoctrinated battle monks.

It be like saying people with transplants and prosthetic aren't human anymore.

We're not talking about Imperial definitions of human, we're talking about actual, not-insane, definitions.

Cloning is easy, especially if we consider that the process would have been there from the beginning (they didn't lose the ability to clone and become forced to do the implantation method, and if Space Marines could just be cloned, The Emperor would have done it).

The thing that is particularly notable about Fabius is that he seems to have figured out how to clone Astartes with their artificial organs already present. So basically he's created what people are suggesting in this thread that Space Marines already are. Either that or he's just learned to manipulate gene-seed, which is a feat in of itself.

Speaking of Imperial cloning, don't they sometimes do that to make Servitors and other Tech-Thralls?

EDIT: @Desubot - Exactly. Also, there's no reason to believe that the modern humans of 40k aren't homo sapiens. Besides, look at dogs. A lot can vary within a species before they start pushing the boundaries of "species".

@Sledgehammer - You miss the point. Space Marines can't reproduce because they don't have reproductive organs. If it was because their DNA was different, Space Marines would be inseminating and failing to produce offspring. This is not the case. Your definition of "species" was that they had to be able to reproduce with each other. Space Marines cannot reproduce with each other. By your logic this means that, even if their DNA was unique, they would not be a species.

We're not talking about Imperial definitions of human, we're talking about actual, not-insane, definitions.

All definitions of "human" are insane. What separates us from the other primates? Are those things not simply insane?

Cloning is easy, especially if we consider that the process would have been there from the beginning (they didn't lose the ability to clone and become forced to do the implantation method, and if Space Marines could just be cloned, The Emperor would have done it).

Citation needed.

Speaking of Imperial cloning, don't they sometimes do that to make Servitors and other Tech-Thralls?

Servitors are what happens to you if you make the AdMech angry. There are many, many people who qualify for that.

At best, they may vat-grow certain organs for implantation into various things and people, but that's more stem-cell tech than full-body cloning.

What separates us from other primates is our DNA. That's kind of how species classification works. We don't classify species based on their psychology or how they feel about things.

Growing organs is more difficult than cloning people. If they can do something as complex as that, then it would be easy. Cloning is "stem-cell tech".

I'm pretty sure they "vat-grow" Servitors if they need to. I looked it up, and Lexicanum's article begins with:

Lexicanum, Servitor wrote:While many are vat-grown, often a criminal, particularly one who has offended the Cult Mechanicus, will be sentenced to "Servitude Imperpituis" and will be handed over to the Tech-priests to be mind-wiped, reprogrammed, and cybernetically-enhanced to serve some specific, rudimentary function.

A search for "vat-grow" on Lexicanum also brings up:

Lexicanum, Culexus Temple wrote:The Culexus temple is known to hunt down and recruit these Pariahs but also to vat-grow them.

Lexicanum, Praetorian Servitors wrote:
Praetorians are created from vat-grown giants or mind-scrubbed Ogryns.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
We're not talking about Imperial definitions of human, we're talking about actual, not-insane, definitions.

Cloning is easy, especially if we consider that the process would have been there from the beginning (they didn't lose the ability to clone and become forced to do the implantation method, and if Space Marines could just be cloned, The Emperor would have done it).

The thing that is particularly notable about Fabius is that he seems to have figured out how to clone Astartes with their artificial organs already present. So basically he's created what people are suggesting in this thread that Space Marines already are. Either that or he's just learned to manipulate gene-seed, which is a feat in of itself.

Speaking of Imperial cloning, don't they sometimes do that to make Servitors and other Tech-Thralls?

EDIT: @Desubot - Exactly. Also, there's no reason to believe that the modern humans of 40k aren't homo sapiens. Besides, look at dogs. A lot can vary within a species before they start pushing the boundaries of "species".

@Sledgehammer - You miss the point. Space Marines can't reproduce because they don't have reproductive organs. If it was because their DNA was different, Space Marines would be inseminating and failing to produce offspring. This is not the case. Your definition of "species" was that they had to be able to reproduce with each other. Space Marines cannot reproduce with each other. By your logic this means that, even if their DNA was unique, they would not be a species.

there is no fluff stating one or the other as games workshop avoids the topic, there is no supporting evidence either way, all we know is that they don't have any kids with human female women. Whether it is because of a difference in chromosomes, or a lack of reproductive organs is pure speculation. I lean on the side of genetic incompatibility because it seems more probable to me that the geneseed would change their chromosome number to make them infertile with normal human females.

Growing organs is more difficult than cloning people. If they can do something as complex as that, then it would be easy. Cloning is "stem-cell tech".

Then why are we capable of doing one but not the other in the modern era?

We can grow organs via stem-cells. We have not yet successfully cloned someone.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
We're not talking about Imperial definitions of human, we're talking about actual, not-insane, definitions.

Cloning is easy, especially if we consider that the process would have been there from the beginning (they didn't lose the ability to clone and become forced to do the implantation method, and if Space Marines could just be cloned, The Emperor would have done it).

The thing that is particularly notable about Fabius is that he seems to have figured out how to clone Astartes with their artificial organs already present. So basically he's created what people are suggesting in this thread that Space Marines already are. Either that or he's just learned to manipulate gene-seed, which is a feat in of itself.

Speaking of Imperial cloning, don't they sometimes do that to make Servitors and other Tech-Thralls?

EDIT: @Desubot - Exactly. Also, there's no reason to believe that the modern humans of 40k aren't homo sapiens. Besides, look at dogs. A lot can vary within a species before they start pushing the boundaries of "species".

@Sledgehammer - You miss the point. Space Marines can't reproduce because they don't have reproductive organs. If it was because their DNA was different, Space Marines would be inseminating and failing to produce offspring. This is not the case. Your definition of "species" was that they had to be able to reproduce with each other. Space Marines cannot reproduce with each other. By your logic this means that, even if their DNA was unique, they would not be a species.

there is no fluff stating one or the other as games workshop avoids the topic, there is no supporting evidence either way, all we know is that they don't have any kids with human female women. Whether it is because of a difference in chromosomes, or a lack of reproductive organs is pure speculation. I lean on the side of genetic incompatibility because it seems more probable to me that the geneseed would change their chromosome number to make them infertile with normal human females.

It would all be speculation for sure.

I think it would probably have to do with some flavor of hormones or something destroying or preventing the use of there special equipment Or just a straight up neutering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

Growing organs is more difficult than cloning people. If they can do something as complex as that, then it would be easy. Cloning is "stem-cell tech".

Then why are we capable of doing one but not the other in the modern era?

We can grow organs via stem-cells. We have not yet successfully cloned someone.

we did clone sheep though IIRC

Edit: NVM apparently we have cloned a BUNCH of animals. (but not really vat grown)

@Sledgehammer - The problem with that explanation is that it requires the existence of "Space Marine DNA" which, as I have said previously, makes the entire situation with gene-seed and organ implantation completely pointless. It would mean that Space Marines could just be cloned, which they evidently can't.

@Psiensis - We can't, not really. We haven't cloned a human because of the ethical implications, not because we can't do it.

EDIT: However, what we really should be asking is "Are Space Marines human... or are they dancer"?

I was talking in a more spiritual sense, like they lack what tends to define humans the most i.e. empathy, fear, sympathy, etc.

Neither, they are Devo!

On the aspect of vat-grown servitors...

Many Servitors are more machine than flesh (while others are the opposite). Are we sure that Lexi is not suggesting that the more-machine ones simply vat-grow the brainmatter required to act as the CPU, installing it into a pre-fabricated machine body after installing the required engrammatic programs for its function directly into the brain?

The reason I bring that up is because the Lexi article on Servitors is taking some serious liberties with its sources, and is missing rather a lot of information about the miscellaneous servitors appearing in other sources.

Like that line from Star Wars "He's more machine than man now." as in they lack a lot of what makes humanity redeemable (Most Space Marines are olympic level jerks barring a few.)

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I was talking in a more spiritual sense, like they lack what tends to define humans the most i.e. empathy, fear, sympathy, etc.

But that's basically what monks do today, though not as extreme. complete control through insane meditation and faith in the empara.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
@Sledgehammer - The problem with that explanation is that it requires the existence of "Space Marine DNA" which, as I have said previously, makes the entire situation with gene-seed and organ implantation completely pointless. It would mean that Space Marines could just be cloned, which they evidently can't.

@Psiensis - We can't, not really. We haven't cloned a human because of the ethical implications, not because we can't do it.

EDIT: However, what we really should be asking is "Are Space Marines human... or are they dancer"?

what i am saying is that the implantation of the geneseed makes them a completely new species.

there is no real world equivalent to such a rapid and sudden change in genome in a single individual in a single generation. Is it a new species, or is it a large insane mutation that results in infertility with other members of its (former) species.

I will use an analogy. lets say i have a Volks Wagon Bug and i keep putting more and more modifications on it. these modifications are internal, external, performance increasing, and aesthetic. at what point does the bug no longer become a bug? The base of the car is a bug, but it has a new engine, a new look, and a new profile. whether it is a bug or not is up to the individuals discretion.

what is ultimately true is that you first need a bug in order to make the modifications as you wouldn't be able to put the modifications on the base of any other car.

the geneseed is the modification that in my opinion makes the bug essentially a new car.

 Desubot wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I was talking in a more spiritual sense, like they lack what tends to define humans the most i.e. empathy, fear, sympathy, etc.

But that's basically what monks do today, though not as extreme. complete control through insane meditation and faith in the empara.

I don't really mean controlled as much as gone. They just took out the parts of the SM's head that don't work. If you can take away a man's instincts and his empathy is he still a man?

OH THE PHILOSOPHY IS GLORIOUS!

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Think of the implants as no different to cybernetic implants...

By the way, a Tech-Priest who has removed their entire body and replaced most of their brain with computer parts is still one hundred percent human. "Transhuman" is not a species, either is "superhuman". Both just refer to a human being whose body is beyond the capabilities of normal humans.

So wait, you're saying that a human with a pacemaker is... what, exactly? Still a human?

Anyway.

 Sledgehammer wrote:


these viruses change destroy mutate and inject their own dna into the dna of the space marines thereby changing their genetic makeup.

You know if you read the article and were interested in knowing anything, you might be saying the complete opposite thing to what you are saying.

 Psienesis wrote:

They have a whole lot of extra organs that no human being is born with.

They aren't born with them. The whole process of gene-seed harvesting and organ implantation would be entirely moot if you could just take a DNA sample from any Marine and clone them from scratch. Literally the only effort required would be to supply the growing Astartes with nutrients and some sort of embryonic growth chamber. They could be manufactured en masse with great ease.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

...

Nothing "makes us human" other than our genetics. Every single one of the various forms of Mechanicus pseudo-robot are human. Servitors, Thallax, even Servo-Skulls. All are human. You suggest that people who do not have the expected measure of human psychology are actually not human; braindead people, insane people, and so on.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Think of the implants as no different to cybernetic implants...

By the way, a Tech-Priest who has removed their entire body and replaced most of their brain with computer parts is still one hundred percent human. "Transhuman" is not a species, either is "superhuman". Both just refer to a human being whose body is beyond the capabilities of normal humans.

So wait, you're saying that a human with a pacemaker is... what, exactly? Still a human?

Anyway.

 Sledgehammer wrote:


these viruses change destroy mutate and inject their own dna into the dna of the space marines thereby changing their genetic makeup.

You know if you read the article and were interested in knowing anything, you might be saying the complete opposite thing to what you are saying.

 Psienesis wrote:

They have a whole lot of extra organs that no human being is born with.

They aren't born with them. The whole process of gene-seed harvesting and organ implantation would be entirely moot if you could just take a DNA sample from any Marine and clone them from scratch. Literally the only effort required would be to supply the growing Astartes with nutrients and some sort of embryonic growth chamber. They could be manufactured en masse with great ease.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

...

Nothing "makes us human" other than our genetics. Every single one of the various forms of Mechanicus pseudo-robot are human. Servitors, Thallax, even Servo-Skulls. All are human. You suggest that people who do not have the expected measure of human psychology are actually not human; braindead people, insane people, and so on.

Codex Imperialis says of servitors, "Many servitors are adapted from artificially cultured drone bodies; others are mind-wiped humans who have committed some terrible crime." Codex: Space Marines (5th Edition) says of [Chapter] servitors, "Some are grown from human gene-cells in artificial nutrient. Others are failed neophytes, civilian criminals or fugitives from Chapter law who have been mind-wiped and lobotomised so that their flesh may serve anew." Then you have things like the Afriel Strain, whilst not 'pure' clones are created using the DNA of the Imperium's greatest warriors.

As to the topic of are Space Marines human then emphatically I say yes. Biologically modified humans but humans none-the-less. I never understood why people describe them as eunuchs as there is no hint that they have their genitalia removed but we do know that part of their psycho-indoctrination is designed so that they have no sexual desire so that they cannot be manipulated by the promise of sex (the novel Eye of Terror has a section about this). Space Marines may well be infertile due to the implants they receive or the life-long chemo-therapy that they may require in order to not reject their implants but the most obvious reason as to why Space Marines do not father children is that every second of their lives is spent either at war or in preparation to be at war and they mentally conditioned to have no thoughts or desire for family and children although in various novels a Space Marine might well have a rare moment of regret that such a life is denied them; Uriel Ventris in the novel Dead Sky Black Sun sees as a vision of his life as an agri-worker on Calth with a family for example. Amorous Space Wolves do put this theory to the test though even if the females in question did turn out to be Eldar!

Even so, Marines do reproduce after a fashion and their method could possibly be described as parasitic. Space Marines create all of the organs necessary to create more Space Marines within themselves via the Progenoid Gland. They then seek out suitable hosts and implant them with these organs thus creating more Space Marines. In its own way that is reproduction.

Oh my god, so much posts.

there is no real world equivalent to such a rapid and sudden change in genome in a single individual in a single generation. Is it a new species, or is it a large insane mutation that results in infertility with other members of its (former) species.

Grow a cat eye, in a cat's face on a cat's body. Just find a cat that has an eye. Cut the cat's eye out of the cat. sew it into your thigh with a blood supply.

That's how you make a space marine! except instead of a cat's eye it's a kidney and instead of a cat it is an angel that you made in a lab on the moon.

Why in god's name do you you not understand that it is a regular guy with someone else's organs.

It is a case of artificial genetic chimerism. Tell me which part of "space marines are genetic chimerae" means they don't have the same genes anymore.

 Psienesis wrote:

They still have their own genetics, can't change that. They have additional organs, not different ones. The heart, stomach, lungs, intestines, liver and kidneys are all their own, born with them. The third point? What, you saying a professional strongman who can lift cars is not human? Finally, it has never been proven they are incapable, just lack desire.

They have a whole lot of extra organs that no human being is born with. They can spit acid, and they can devour parts of a sentient being's body and gain memories and genetic comprehension of it. That's just two of them.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.VAds_VduXbY

And, yes, you *can* change genetics. That's the whole point behind geneseed implantation and the primogen glands.

That doesn't change their DNA, unless you seriously would suggest a man with a pig's liver is no longer a human if you're asinine enough to reap genetic material from the transplanted organ. But no, they are still genetically human, transplants wouldn't change that. The only thing that is posthuman in 40k are Tech Priests with barely any flesh left at all.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Grow a cat eye, in a cat's face on a cat's body. Just find a cat that has an eye. Cut the cat's eye out of the cat. sew it into your thigh with a blood supply.

That's how you make a space marine! except instead of a cat's eye it's a kidney and instead of a cat it is an angel that you made in a lab on the moon.

Just wanted to say, totally sig-worthy. +1

Gogsnik made a pretty good point. I was mostly basing my assumptions off of Pre heresy World Eaters and Death Guard who were always pretty inhuman from all the augmentations and less than reliable gene seed.

 Psienesis wrote:

Growing organs is more difficult than cloning people. If they can do something as complex as that, then it would be easy. Cloning is "stem-cell tech".

Then why are we capable of doing one but not the other in the modern era?

We can grow organs via stem-cells. We have not yet successfully cloned someone.

Because cloning human beings is illegal as gak. In practice however it'd be fairly easy to clone a human being in real life, especially considering how widespread female humans of age are on the planet. No different than a surrogate womb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Gogsnik made a pretty good point. I was mostly basing my assumptions off of Pre heresy World Eaters and Death Guard who were always pretty inhuman from all the augmentations and less than reliable gene seed.

If you want mutant Astartes, take it up with the Black Dragons. They make the Space Wolves look normal.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Oh my god, so much posts.

there is no real world equivalent to such a rapid and sudden change in genome in a single individual in a single generation. Is it a new species, or is it a large insane mutation that results in infertility with other members of its (former) species.

Grow a cat eye, in a cat's face on a cat's body. Just find a cat that has an eye. Cut the cat's eye out of the cat. sew it into your thigh with a blood supply.

That's how you make a space marine! except instead of a cat's eye it's a kidney and instead of a cat it is an angel that you made in a lab on the moon.

Why in god's name do you you not understand that it is a regular guy with someone else's organs.

It is a case of artificial genetic chimerism. Tell me which part of "space marines are genetic chimerae" means they don't have the same genes anymore.

then that would mean that the gene seed is/are the organs being implanted.
Gene seed from my knowledge is the modification (whether by adding, destroying, modifying etc) of genetic material that allows a space marine to accept these implants and allow them to function properly without drugs.

the whole purpose of the gene seed is to accommodate for the implants. if anyone could receive them then there would be a lot more space marines, and a lot less dead initiates.

Psienesis wrote:Neither, they are Devo!

On the aspect of vat-grown servitors...

Many Servitors are more machine than flesh (while others are the opposite). Are we sure that Lexi is not suggesting that the more-machine ones simply vat-grow the brainmatter required to act as the CPU, installing it into a pre-fabricated machine body after installing the required engrammatic programs for its function directly into the brain?

The reason I bring that up is because the Lexi article on Servitors is taking some serious liberties with its sources, and is missing rather a lot of information about the miscellaneous servitors appearing in other sources.

We know that, at minimum, a Servitor requires a brain. Being able to "vat-grow" a fully-formed and functional human brain on its own is a significant feat of biotechnology, much beyond what it would take to grow a human. Furthermore, the additional mention of vat-growing people in the Culexus page suggests it's based on something. I really can't be bothered to read every tech-thrall entry in the 30k books to look for mentions of vat-growth, though. Even ignoring this, I would be very surprised if cloning wasn't possible in 40k, given the great technological power of the setting. Adding in Imperial "vat-growth" of specific body parts, along with the existence of the Magos Biologis (who would be a bit crap if they couldn't even clone a human) and the possibility that Servitors and their like are vat-growth, it seems doubtful that it doesn't exist.

Bronzefists42 wrote:I was talking in a more spiritual sense, like they lack what tends to define humans the most i.e. empathy, fear, sympathy, etc.

That's not really any sort of definition. Are Kriegsmen of the DKoK human? I'd say yes, considering that they are humans.

Sledgehammer wrote:
I will use an analogy. lets say i have a Volks Wagon Bug and i keep putting more and more modifications on it. these modifications are internal, external, performance increasing, and aesthetic. at what point does the bug no longer become a bug? The base of the car is a bug, but it has a new engine, a new look, and a new profile. whether it is a bug or not is up to the individuals discretion.

what is ultimately true is that you first need a bug in order to make the modifications as you wouldn't be able to put the modifications on the base of any other car.

the geneseed is the modification that in my opinion makes the bug essentially a new car.

That analogy does not work, because it would have to define a Bug on parameters it does not have an equivalent to (DNA). Take the previous example of a Tech-Priest, or any of their not-robots. There can be almost nothing left of them that is human, but they're still human. A brain in a jar at the centre of an enormous mech is still a human.

pelicaniforce wrote:So wait, you're saying that a human with a pacemaker is... what, exactly? Still a human?

Yes. A human with a full-body prosthesis is still a human, too! You might want to fix the quotes in your post, though.

EDIT: Okay, so about a million posts that happened while I was writing this just said everything I wanted to say, and more. Definitely loved the cat eye thing. Perfect analogy.

EDIT2: Sledgehammer, the gene-seed is the genetic template for the organs. It's the (artificial, as in man-made) DNA of the super-organs. After using the gene-seed to grow the organs, the organs are implanted into the Space Marine. The Progenoid of the Space Marine (one of these organs) takes materials from the Marine's body and uses it to make more gene-seed. This is then harvested and used to make more organs. Repeat forever.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
first article bottom of second paragraph "Another, called env, makes knobs on the outer surface of the virus, that allow it to latch onto cells and invade them. And a third, called pol, makes an enzyme that inserts the virus’s genes into its host cell’s DNA."

article 2 start of paragraph 4 'Viruses have insinuated themselves into the genome of our ancestors for hundreds of millions of years. They typically have gotten there by infecting eggs or sperm, inserting their own DNA into ours. There are 100,000 known fragments of viruses in the human genome, making up over 8% of our DNA. "

Are you trying to tell me... that viruses change dna? Yeah, that is what viruses do.

Are you saying that means I can point a virus at you, and it will change all your cells into space marine cells?'

That is specifically not what the article says.

" On rare occasion, a virus infected a sperm or egg and managed to end up in an embryo. Every new cell in the embryo inherited the retrovirus DNA implanted in its genome. And then the embryo grew up into an adult, "

what means is that, if you were right that space marines are genetically different after they are implanted than when they are mortals, you'd have to implant the gene-seed into his mother's ovaries.

No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

 Melissia wrote:
No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

Except they're as much of a biological mutant a person who just underwent an organ transplant. Are you going to walk into a hospital, find everyone who's gotten an organ transplant and scream MUTANT! at them?

@ frozen ocean

genetically the tech priest has not changed, but his body has. he no longer is anything but a brain in jar that controls mechanical equipment.

on a genetic level (what little biological parts remain of him) he is human, but in my opinion he can't be human anymore because he lacks all of the physical attributes that go along with being human.

The bug analogy works here also because the base (his genetic aspect of humanity) is the same, but he has changed so much that i personally would no longer call him one. So it is up to each individual to make the call.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

Except they're as much of a biological mutant a person who

Underwent massive genetic and biological change to give them features the human body does not have, and which allows them to do and withstand things that no human can.

The assertion of "well they're just like transplants" gets a big "nope" as a result of this.


Keep in mind, by this same assertion, I would argue that many upper-level mechanicus personnel are, to use a cliche phrase, more machine than man.

The definition of species is scientific, and so is not up for personal definition. If you want to talk about the definition of "human", which is in the same vein as "what is intelligence?" and "what is thought?", then you can have an opinion on it. We're not talking about that, though.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
first article bottom of second paragraph "Another, called env, makes knobs on the outer surface of the virus, that allow it to latch onto cells and invade them. And a third, called pol, makes an enzyme that inserts the virus’s genes into its host cell’s DNA."

article 2 start of paragraph 4 'Viruses have insinuated themselves into the genome of our ancestors for hundreds of millions of years. They typically have gotten there by infecting eggs or sperm, inserting their own DNA into ours. There are 100,000 known fragments of viruses in the human genome, making up over 8% of our DNA. "

Are you trying to tell me... that viruses change dna? Yeah, that is what viruses do.

Are you saying that means I can point a virus at you, and it will change all your cells into space marine cells?'

That is specifically not what the article says.

" On rare occasion, a virus infected a sperm or egg and managed to end up in an embryo. Every new cell in the embryo inherited the retrovirus DNA implanted in its genome. And then the embryo grew up into an adult, "

what means is that, if you were right that space marines are genetically different after they are implanted than when they are mortals, you'd have to implant the gene-seed into his mother's ovaries.

of course a real virus does not turn you into a space marine or cause instant modifications that drastically change your genetics.

geneseed does that though. "Gene-seed is the colloquial term used amongst the Adeptus Astartes for the genetic material that allows for the creation of the super human Space Marines. The gene-seed is actually those germ cells and viral machines that have been genetically-engineered to develop into the various organs that are implanted into a normal human adolescent male to transform him into a Space Marine." taken from here.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

Except they're as much of a biological mutant a person who

Underwent massive genetic and biological change to give them features the human body does not have, and which allows them to do and withstand things that no human can.

The assertion of "well they're just like transplants" gets a big "nope" as a result of this.


Keep in mind, by this same assertion, I would argue that many upper-level mechanicus personnel are, to use a cliche phrase, more machine than man.

As stated previously, the definition of a species is scientific. Space Marines are human, as they are not so alterted they are turned into a sub-species or a whole new species. Ogryns and Ratlings are examples of actual "posthuman" entities in the sense that they are a new species. Space Marines on the other hand are just an extreme example of organ transplantation which does not alter the base DNA, meaning they are still human.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

geneseed does that though. "Gene-seed is the colloquial term used amongst the Adeptus Astartes for the genetic material that allows for the creation of the super human Space Marines. The gene-seed is actually those germ cells and viral machines that have been genetically-engineered to develop into the various organs that are implanted into a normal human adolescent male to transform him into a Space Marine." taken from here.

You're missing the meaning of that quote. It states that the "gene-seed ... develop[s] into the various organs that are implanted into a normal human". You don't inject a human with gene-seed to turn them into a Space Marine, you culture the gene-seed to make the organs, which you then implant into a human to make them a Space Marine.

Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

To be fair, there are dogs that are brown, hairless and shorter than my knee, and dogs that are big enough for me to ride, very haired and black, yet they are both dogs.

What exactly defines a new species?

I am not sure if the reproduction argument holds given the synthetic nature of the Marine ascension.

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

this.

People can't produce acid and we can't magically implant someone with a snake's poison sack and expect it to work.
You need to genetically change or alter the body in order to allow for continued sustaining of a formerly foreign organ that it did not know how to operate.

Hell, most people reject organs from humans. this is why so many initiates die, because their genetics either can't take the geneseed or their bodies reject the implants.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

Except they're as much of a biological mutant a person who just underwent an organ transplant. Are you going to walk into a hospital, find everyone who's gotten an organ transplant and scream MUTANT! at them?

Yes. They have sullied the Sacred Human Form with their third lung and second heart.

A body rejecting organs has nothing to do with its "features", and instead to do with antigens on the cellular surface. I think it's fairly safe to presume that anything specifically created to be implanted into the human body would be designed with this in mind. This would probably mean that the artificial organs have no antigens whatsoever, or some other means of avoiding the body's immune system.

EDIT:

Sledgehammer wrote:You need to genetically change or alter the body in order to allow for continued sustaining of a formerly foreign organ that it did not know how to operate.

No, you don't.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
A body rejecting organs has nothing to do with its "features", and instead to do with antigens on the cellular surface. I think it's fairly safe to presume that anything specifically created to be implanted into the human body would be designed with this in mind. This would probably mean that the artificial organs have no antigens whatsoever, or some other means of avoiding the body's immune system.

Then why does geneseed fail 100% of the time in female subjects?

Some nonsense to do with the growth not working. Female immune systems aren't different to male ones, so it's not a case of organ rejection as you would get with real-life organ transplants.

Then it has to be something on the genetic level, as it's (as you say) not an immune system issue.

Psienesis wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
A body rejecting organs has nothing to do with its "features", and instead to do with antigens on the cellular surface. I think it's fairly safe to presume that anything specifically created to be implanted into the human body would be designed with this in mind. This would probably mean that the artificial organs have no antigens whatsoever, or some other means of avoiding the body's immune system.

Then why does geneseed fail 100% of the time in female subjects?

Isn't it like 99,97%?

So femmarines are possible theoretically, but only theoretically.

Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

Except they're as much of a biological mutant a person who just underwent an organ transplant. Are you going to walk into a hospital, find everyone who's gotten an organ transplant and scream MUTANT! at them?

Yes. They have sullied the Sacred Human Form with their third lung and second heart.

By the Emperor's design, I might add.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
People can't produce acid

Coughcoughstomachacidcoughcough

 Psienesis wrote:
Then it has to be something on the genetic level, as it's (as you say) not an immune system issue.

Yet as has been pointed out before, neither are female genes. In fact, women in reality should be more stable given the extra X chromosome.

Actually, not genetic. I believe the official GW take on the subject was hormonal.

The real reason is probably that The Emperor wanted to surround himself with a space army full exclusively of men with rock-hard abs.

EDIT: And thank you, Wyzilla. You know, I didn't realise it was you until I wrote this sentence and looked at your name. I usually identify people based on their avatar.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

this.

People can't produce acid and we can't magically implant someone with a snake's poison sack and expect it to work.
You need to genetically change or alter the body in order to allow for continued sustaining of a formerly foreign organ that it did not know how to operate.

Hell, most people reject organs from humans. this is why so many initiates die, because their genetics either can't take the geneseed or their bodies reject the implants.

Actually we do, only instead of acid for dissolving food in our mouths, we secrete a base. Our stomach however does secrete acid, and damn potent stuff at that.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

To be fair, there are dogs that are brown, hairless and shorter than my knee, and dogs that are big enough for me to ride, very haired and black, yet they are both dogs.

What exactly defines a new species?

I am not sure if the reproduction argument holds given the synthetic nature of the Marine ascension.

Dogs are kind of a bad comparison as they are the species with the most genetic variation to our knowledge.

Anyway according to wikipedia "A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring."

Since GW has skirted around the subject we do not know why space marines don't have kids. It might be that radiation makes them infertile. They are celibate (not space wolves lol), or they are genetically incompitable. if they are genetically incompatible then they are no longer of the same species.

Assuming genetic incompatibility I will go back the mule comparison with space marines. Mules cannot have off spring with either horses, or donkeys (ok female mules can but its super super rare), and they are essentially genetically incompatible with both of their parent's races. Space marines cannot have offspring with the human race due to their genetic incompatibility.

neither reproduce and are genetically different from their parents. in that case i would call them a different species.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

this.

People can't produce acid and we can't magically implant someone with a snake's poison sack and expect it to work.
You need to genetically change or alter the body in order to allow for continued sustaining of a formerly foreign organ that it did not know how to operate.

Hell, most people reject organs from humans. this is why so many initiates die, because their genetics either can't take the geneseed or their bodies reject the implants.

Actually we do, only instead of acid for dissolving food in our mouths, we secrete a base. Our stomach however does secrete acid, and damn potent stuff at that.

you know what i meant

As said, a female marine is theoretically possible. Maybe she would not be sterile. If so, the reproduction argument does not hold.

(:

I am really playing devil's advocate now, ain't I?

That's not the scientific definition. It's a good general way of describing a species, but it's not concrete. Wikipedia isn't a good place to get exact information, either, but even it says "often defined as".

EDIT: Ashiraya, there's not really any reason why it wouldn't be totally possible. I'm pretty sure The Emperor created his "bulwark against the terror" to be male-only, rather than it just coincidentally being incompatible. Maybe it wasn't even for sexist reasons - maybe he just wanted them to resemble him as much as possible.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

this.

People can't produce acid and we can't magically implant someone with a snake's poison sack and expect it to work.
You need to genetically change or alter the body in order to allow for continued sustaining of a formerly foreign organ that it did not know how to operate.

Hell, most people reject organs from humans. this is why so many initiates die, because their genetics either can't take the geneseed or their bodies reject the implants.

Actually we do, only instead of acid for dissolving food in our mouths, we secrete a base. Our stomach however does secrete acid, and damn potent stuff at that.

Hydrochloric acid out of your stomach will not permit you to dissolve handcuffs in seconds. Sorry, it's not *that* potent. Also, you only cause yourself comparatively mild discomfort when you regurgitate said acid into your mouth, rather than dissolving your entire face. So not only are Space Marines modified to secrete this acid, they are also given something that prevents them from eating through their own mouths with it.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

To be fair, there are dogs that are brown, hairless and shorter than my knee, and dogs that are big enough for me to ride, very haired and black, yet they are both dogs.

What exactly defines a new species?

I am not sure if the reproduction argument holds given the synthetic nature of the Marine ascension.

Dogs are kind of a bad comparison as they are the species with the most genetic variation to our knowledge.

Anyway according to wikipedia "A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring."

Since GW has skirted around the subject we do not know why space marines don't have kids. It might be that radiation makes them infertile. They are celebrate (not space wolves lol), or they are genetically incompitable. if they are genetically incompatible then they are no longer of the same species.

Assuming genetic incompatibility I will go back the mule comparison with space marines. Mules cannot have off spring with either horses, or donkeys (ok female mules can but its super super rare), and they are essentially genetically incompatible with both of their parent's races. Space marines cannot have offspring with the human race due to their genetic incompatibility.

neither reproduce and are genetically different from their parents. in that case i would call them a different species.

You do realize the much more likely option is that 1) due to indoctrination and hypnotherapy, they're probably about as sexually active as a corpse? And that 2) if they did have sex with somebody, they're liable to kill the lover with their strength, and only artificial fertlization like with livestock breeding would work?

AND GOD DAMMIT DAKKA, WE WENT A MONTH! A WHOLE MONTH WITHOUT DISCUSSING SPACE MARINE DICKS! DAMMIT!

-resets Days Without Astartes Dicks Being Mentioned back to zero-

You were the one that mentioned their Little Heavy Bolters. We were talking about the science of human (and otherwise) reproduction.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
That's not the scientific definition. It's a good general way of describing a species, but it's not concrete. Wikipedia isn't a good place to get exact information, either, but even it says "often defined as".

According to that definition Mules, and Space Marines are not a species because they always die out in the first generation, but for the purposes of argumentation i will say that their inability to produce offspring is evidence of a drastic change in genetics to the point of being a species even though they technically don't meet the specification.

I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

 Psienesis wrote:
You were the one that mentioned their Little Heavy Bolters. We were talking about the science of human (and otherwise) reproduction.

It was a horrible chess move by the enemy. You mention sterility and the topic will immediately come up. Maybe someday GW will just answer the question.

Maybe it's just me, having written several 15-page essays on them, but I think we can discuss reproductive systems in a mature and civil manner.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Maybe it's just me, having written several 15-page essays on them, but I think we can discuss reproductive systems in a mature and civil manner.

The civility doesn't matter, it's just that we're discussing the reproductive systems of a fictional entity and their sexuality. As a Warsie as well, I don't remember that coming up when discussing Jedi. Or Mandalorians.

Hey guys, is the Marine yaoi starting now?

 Melissia wrote:
No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

I guess it ranges from chapter to chapter.

Hey guys, is the Marine yaoi starting now?

That was the thread about Custodes and French maid outfits.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

If sterility is the fault of environmental change in the host due to the process of becoming a space marine, then we could simply take sperm from initiates before they are space marines (or those that got too old before they were found to be have been included) and expose them to the viruses that make up the gene seed. This goes back to the article i posted earlier about viruses traveling from one generation to the next via infiltration of the reproductive cells.

Ehm, the Space Marine Initiate is, most commonly, a pre-pubescent boy.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

Considering they sound like Clint Eastwood, and not choir boys, they most certainly are not castrated.

Simply take the sample from a guardsmen who could have been an initiate, but somehow slipped through the cracks and become too old to be an initate.

Wyzilla wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Maybe it's just me, having written several 15-page essays on them, but I think we can discuss reproductive systems in a mature and civil manner.

The civility doesn't matter, it's just that we're discussing the reproductive systems of a fictional entity and their sexuality. As a Warsie as well, I don't remember that coming up when discussing Jedi. Or Mandalorians.

Why is that a problem? It doesn't matter with Jedi or Mandalorians because they are not in a similar situation. Space Marine reproductive systems, on the other hand, are quite relevant.

Ashiraya wrote:Hey guys, is the Marine yaoi starting now?

It began with Rogue Trader. Where's the cover art for that book, which features two Ultramarines wrestling while others watch?

Sledgehammer wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

If sterility is the fault of environmental change in the host due to the process of becoming a space marine, then we could simply take sperm from initiates before they are space marines (or those that got too old before they were found to be have been included) and expose them to the viruses that make up the gene seed. This goes back to the article i posted earlier about viruses traveling from one generation to the next via infiltration of the reproductive cells.

Please read everyone's responses to you previously in this thread.

EDIT:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Considering they sound like Clint Eastwood, and not choir boys, they most certainly are not castrated.

Choir boys sound like that because of a lack of hormones (mostly testosterone) in their development. A hormone deficiency is the last thing a Space Marine will have.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

Considering they sound like Clint Eastwood, and not choir boys, they most certainly are not castrated.

That's... not what castration is.

Sledgehammer wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

If sterility is the fault of environmental change in the host due to the process of becoming a space marine, then we could simply take sperm from initiates before they are space marines (or those that got too old before they were found to be have been included) and expose them to the viruses that make up the gene seed. This goes back to the article i posted earlier about viruses traveling from one generation to the next via infiltration of the reproductive cells.

frozenocean wrote:
Please read everyone's responses to you previously in this thread.

i couldn't find a response to that.

i really want to know why changing the dna of a reproductive cell with the geneseed before it undergoes radiation would not work.

you could then artificially inseminate women with it and have space marine babies.
if those babies can reproduce then they are human if they cannot then the mule comparison is very apt.

if the artificial insemination does not result in babies then Astarte are not human.

 Psienesis wrote:

Growing organs is more difficult than cloning people. If they can do something as complex as that, then it would be easy. Cloning is "stem-cell tech".

Then why are we capable of doing one but not the other in the modern era?

We can grow organs via stem-cells. We have not yet successfully cloned someone.

We could totally clone a person right now, if it wasn't an incredibly taboo thing to do artificially. Plus it would be unethical given the health problems the clone will experience due to genetic degradation.

Identical twins are effectively natural clones as well. So it is not only possible, it happens naturally(but doing it artificially has ethical problems)

Cloning something is relatively easy. Its not nearly as hard as trying to artificially regulate the growth of a new organ. One simply requires swapping out DNA, the other requires stem cell cultures, artificial hormone regulation, etc...

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

Considering they sound like Clint Eastwood, and not choir boys, they most certainly are not castrated.

That's... not what castration is.

Woops, I meant Castrato voices.

I think the natural occurrence of identical twins is off the mark for this discussion, especially considering that Space Marines definitely don't happen naturally (in-universe or otherwise).

Furthermore, identical twins are not (necessarily) clones of either of their parents (they should, in fact, be roughly 50/50), so I would hesitate to say that one twin is the clone of the other. It's... not quite the same "photocopying" mechanic in play.

As far as the ethical concerns go... the bans on various kinds of cloning technologies is very patchwork across the world. It is, perhaps, most notable that no Federal law in the US bans human cloning.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think the natural occurrence of identical twins is off the mark for this discussion, especially considering that Space Marines definitely don't happen naturally (in-universe or otherwise).

Furthermore, identical twins are not (necessarily) clones of either of their parents (they should, in fact, be roughly 50/50), so I would hesitate to say that one twin is the clone of the other. It's... not quite the same "photocopying" mechanic in play.

As far as the ethical concerns go... the bans on various kinds of cloning technologies is very patchwork across the world. It is, perhaps, most notable that no Federal law in the US bans human cloning.

They're not clones of their parents, they're actually a clone of each other.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

Considering they sound like Clint Eastwood, and not choir boys, they most certainly are not castrated.

That's... not what castration is.

Woops, I meant Castrato voices.

That's still not what castration is. For the effect you're talking about, that's losing the berries before puberty. Losing the twig is... optional, I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I think the natural occurrence of identical twins is off the mark for this discussion, especially considering that Space Marines definitely don't happen naturally (in-universe or otherwise).

Furthermore, identical twins are not (necessarily) clones of either of their parents (they should, in fact, be roughly 50/50), so I would hesitate to say that one twin is the clone of the other. It's... not quite the same "photocopying" mechanic in play.

As far as the ethical concerns go... the bans on various kinds of cloning technologies is very patchwork across the world. It is, perhaps, most notable that no Federal law in the US bans human cloning.

They're not clones of their parents, they're actually a clone of each other.

Still not quite in the same ballpark of what is being discussed here. This is more whether or not the Space Marine, following the genetic manipulation that makes them a Space Marine, including the implantation of the progenoid glands, makes them something other than humans.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:


It is a case of artificial genetic chimerism. Tell me which part of "space marines are genetic chimerae" means they don't have the same genes anymore.

then that would mean that the gene seed is/are the organs being implanted.
Gene seed from my knowledge is the modification (whether by adding, destroying, modifying etc) of genetic material that allows a space marine to accept these implants and allow them to function properly without drugs.

the whole purpose of the gene seed is to accommodate for the implants. if anyone could receive them then there would be a lot more space marines, and a lot less dead initiates.

Look, the first thing you have to amend is that the quote you keep using appears only on the 40k wiki. It is a fabrication.

Secondly, yes, gene seed is the organs that are culturesd from the Primarchs. They do not re


Look, nobody on the other side of this appears to know what animals are.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It doesn't matter with Jedi or Mandalorians because they are not in a similar situation. Space Marine reproductive systems, on the other hand, are quite relevant.

Or irrelevant. A marine is "only" a human with biological implants and modifications. Even if he had working equipment he can't pass on the new traits, just as a top-level athlete (years of training, medication and steroids) won't magically produce children with improved physical characteristics.

As for why it was made so complicated, well, maybe that is what the Emperor wanted? Having to find compatible implantation candidates means even the haughtiest looking-down-on base humans Chapter has to protect the people in their recruiting area. All of them, if possible. Every marine will intellectually know he was first born of a human woman before he was made special. Superhumans that could just breed and replenish their ranks would soon have no use for baseline humanity except as slaves.

If you read the older books (Realm of Chaos) then the Emperor did not specifically set out to create Space Marines, they were a necessity after losing the Primarchs. His original intention was to create a new race of super-humans with the Primarchs being the first of many.

After the Primarchs were lost the Emperor didn't have the time or ability to recreate them and so, using what scraps of genetic material were left created the implants that would turn a regular human into something more Primarch-like.

Things may well be a little different now with the HH series (although I can't think of anything off the top of my head the specifically contradicts that earlier background) but the Space Marines were something the Emperor created to make the best of a bad job; The Emperor didn't want modified humans, He'd already made those (Thunder Warriors) and they had a built in redundancy so that they would die out after the Emperor no-longer required them which, considering they conquered the Sol System for Him seems pretty damn harsh. Is it any wonder that Space Marine, for whatever reason, just don't father children? Maybe the natural biological imperative to breed does not exist in Space Marines because that is what the Emperor wanted, loyal little minions to fight His wars for Him and then afterwards just go away and die.

That kind of bottles the mind. How exactly would the all-male primarchs be a new race if they can't reproduce though?

If you replaced humanity with the primarchs, humanity would vanish in a generation. Sure that generation would be longer than a normal generation, but they'd still die off eventually.

 Melissia wrote:
That kind of bottles the mind. How exactly would the all-male primarchs be a new race if they can't reproduce though?

If you replaced humanity with the primarchs, humanity would vanish in a generation. Sure that generation would be longer than a normal generation, but they'd still die off eventually.

Besides vulken?

 Desubot wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That kind of bottles the mind. How exactly would the all-male primarchs be a new race if they can't reproduce though?

If you replaced humanity with the primarchs, humanity would vanish in a generation. Sure that generation would be longer than a normal generation, but they'd still die off eventually.

Besides vulken?

I'm sure the Emperor could find away to kill him (Soul blasting a la Horus).

 Melissia wrote:
That kind of bottles the mind. How exactly would the all-male primarchs be a new race if they can't reproduce though?

If you replaced humanity with the primarchs, humanity would vanish in a generation. Sure that generation would be longer than a normal generation, but they'd still die off eventually.

Space Marines can be viewed as a parasitic species living in a symbiotic relationship with their host species(humans)

Like a virus, they require a host species to reproduce(co-opting host members to create new space marines)

Thus they are a different species, albeit one which requires a different one to reproduce.

Not really all that different from a fig wasp or any virus.

Or just modified humans. I don't view Space Marines as a different species since they didn't evolve to their current state. The change from human to marine is more of a metamorphic change like what caterpillars are to butterflies.

So, yes, Space Marines are still Homo Sapiens Sapiens. They just have a few extra gubbins stuck in them.

 Melissia wrote:
That kind of bottles the mind. How exactly would the all-male primarchs be a new race if they can't reproduce though?

If you replaced humanity with the primarchs, humanity would vanish in a generation. Sure that generation would be longer than a normal generation, but they'd still die off eventually.

Maybe he wanted to make them all perpetuals as well?

 Melissia wrote:
That kind of bottles the mind. How exactly would the all-male primarchs be a new race if they can't reproduce though?

If you replaced humanity with the primarchs, humanity would vanish in a generation. Sure that generation would be longer than a normal generation, but they'd still die off eventually.

Here's the actual quote: "The Emperor's intention was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic blueprint of the Primarchs." The Lost and The Damned page 177.

We know that this new race is distinct from the Space Marines as a later paragraph describes them as 'another plan' after the Primarchs are scattered. It throws up some interesting possibilities about male and female super-humans and whilst it would be highly unlikely that one or both of the missing Primarchs were female given all of the hints we have about them talking about brothers and not sister/s we don't know for certain.

Irrespective of that the Emperor's intention of creating a new super-race does beg a rather more fundamental question, what was His plan for ordinary humans? We know that the Thunder Warriors were created with an in-built self-destruct mechanism which is utterly ruthless (especially in comparison to how the Astartes are feted as Mankind's shining beacon of hope and not convenient and disposable like the Thunder Warriors who were amongst other things, experiments needed to hone the techniques required to make the Primarchs) and we should also consider the Shaman. Yes they guided humanity and lived alongside ordinary humans but at the end of the day they poured themselves into the New Man for one reason only, their own personal survival and the Emperor didn't necessarily make the Primarchs as the best super-humans possible, He made them using his own genetic material with the intention that they would be like Him; might it not be possible that there is a less than honourable reason for this? Then we have the Emperor and His armies of super-humans destroying utterly any that weren't interested in His grand plan for the galaxy even if they were otherwise decent human beings getting along just fine.

There is a reason why the visions shown to Horus convinced him that the Emperor needed to be destroyed; even if that future was as a result of Horus's rebellion.

The new super race could have been intended as a refinement of the Legiones Astartes project so that the Imperium could produce soldiers much more efficiently

The Emperor's plan for a super-race predates the Astartes which only came about as a result of the loss of the Primarchs and the Emperor's need to get on with the Great Crusade due to the birth of Slaanesh. After the Primarchs were lost and the Astartes were created it would seem the Emperor abandoned His plans for the super-race and even if He intended to get back around to it, Horus put paid to any such eventuality.