So I've got 3 interrelated questions.


The Teleport Homer says that it works in units of Terminators/units with Personal Teleporters who are deep striking.

Gate of Infinity makes you re-deep strike onto the board.

Rites of Teleportation lets you pretend you are Eldar when you deep strike.


Can a unit that Deep Strikes via Gate of Infinity benefit from a teleport homer AND get the Rites of Teleportation bonus?

By my reading(and GWs leaky rules) I think you can, but I'd like to get confirmation.

I would say yes, and that is a nice combo

I'm thinking Interceptor squads with Teleport Homers, and as many Lvl3 Libbys+Terminator squad modules as you can fit in(or if you're lucky with your Grand Master)

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm thinking Interceptor squads with Teleport Homers, and as many Lvl3 Libbys+Terminator squad modules as you can fit in(or if you're lucky with your Grand Master)

Just remember that a Teleport Homer must be on the tabletop at the beginning of the turn you wish to make use of it. That means before reserve rolls.

The goal would be to have a homer on each unit in the army that can take one, use Rites to DS as many units on to the table as possible turn 1, and then starting turn 2 use Gate to combo non-scatter from the Homers with run-shoot/shoot-run from Rites.

Personally, I find the combo to be legal per RAW because Rites allows a NSF unit arriving by DS to either run-shoot or shoot-run the turn they arrive, Gate has a unit redeploy via DS during a Psychic phase, while GK Telrport Homers require a DS'ing unit to be arriving from DS reserves. As all 3 requirements are met, the combo seems to work per RAW.

The issues:

An argument can be made that a Gating unit is not arriving ftom DS reserves because at no point in the power are we told to place the unit into DS reserves. The argument for arriving from DS reserves is that Gating tells us to use the DS rules as normal, and DS states a unit must be in DS reserves in order to DS. I see the connection between Gate's remove from table = place in DS reserve, but others disagree.

An argument can be made that Rites only work the first time a NSF unit arrives via DS, not everytime a NSF unit arrives via DS. I can see it going either way.

As with everything, your mileage may vary. I for one can see the RAW in both arguments, yet think the RAW supports the combo over not supporting the combo.

SJ

Rites of Teleportation specifically requires the unit to arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.

Does GoI put the unit in DSR?

It says ''using the rules for deep strike''

Normally, a deep striking unit arrives from deep strike reserves. So I think it must temporarily place them in deep strike reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ond Angel wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm thinking Interceptor squads with Teleport Homers, and as many Lvl3 Libbys+Terminator squad modules as you can fit in(or if you're lucky with your Grand Master)

Just remember that a Teleport Homer must be on the tabletop at the beginning of the turn you wish to make use of it. That means before reserve rolls.

Of course.

Interceptor squads deploy normally, everything else deep strikes turn one. Or uses GoI turn one. Depends on the battlefield situation.

No, sorry. As cool as this combo would be, it doesn't work.

Teleport homers and Rites of Teleportation work when you arrive from Deep Strike Reserve. When using Gate of Infinity, at no point are units ever placed in reserve.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No, sorry. As cool as this combo would be, it doesn't work.

Teleport homers and Rites of Teleportation work when you arrive from Deep Strike Reserve. When using Gate of Infinity, at no point are units ever placed in reserve.

But the rules for deep strike say you arrive from deep strike reserve. So yes it does.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It says ''using the rules for deep strike''

Normally, a deep striking unit arrives from deep strike reserves. So I think it must temporarily place them in deep strike reserves.

This is what I don't agree with - you shouldn't have to invoke some implied "temporary reserves" to make the teleport homers work. What makes more sense to me is that GoI implicitly skips over the reserves step of the Deep Strike rules, since the models were never in reserves (they were explicitly "removed from the board").

Why not?

What prevents that from being the case?

Deep Strike is a way to arrive from reserves = you are arriving from reserves when you Deep Strike. Even if you were only in reserves for a miniscule amount of time.

That logic is false
Deep Strike is a way of arriving from Reserves.
But not every Deep Strike is an arrival from Reserves.

You are saying that, for a minuscule amount of time, they are held in Reserve.
Can you link me the rule that tells us that? Otherwise we'd have to assume they do not come from Reserve.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why not?

What prevents that from being the case?

Deep Strike is a way to arrive from reserves = you are arriving from reserves when you Deep Strike. Even if you were only in reserves for a miniscule amount of time.

Please quote the rule that allows models on the table to leave the table and enter reserves.

Actually, because the default state is that units that are deep striking come from reserves, it is you who have to prove they do not arrive from reserves.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, because the default state is that units that are deep striking come from reserves, it is you who have to prove they do not arrive from reserves.

Did they start the game in Deep Strike Reserves? If not they cannot Deep Strike at all then.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, because the default state is that units that are deep striking come from reserves, it is you who have to prove they do not arrive from reserves.

Did they start the game in Deep Strike Reserves? If not they cannot Deep Strike at all then.

So you admit that to deep strike you must be in reserves.

Thus for Gate of Infinity to work, it MUST place the unit into Deep Strike Reserves temporarily.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, because the default state is that units that are deep striking come from reserves, it is you who have to prove they do not arrive from reserves.

Did they start the game in Deep Strike Reserves? If not they cannot Deep Strike at all then.

So you admit that to deep strike you must be in reserves.

Thus for Gate of Infinity to work, it MUST place the unit into Deep Strike Reserves temporarily.

But it doesn't place the unit in Reserves, as unlike Skyleap, Borrow, or Leaving Combat Space it does not give permission to place units in Reserves. Therefore as per your logic, GoI does not work at all.

I believe a precedence is set as Necron Deathmarks can not multi mark as they use a cryptek of despair to jump around the board.

If they go into reserve, then why don't you have to make a reserve roll to get them back?

Deathmarks had to be FAQ'd to not get their multiple marks. RAW they were perfectly capable of marking multiple units.

 Ghaz wrote:
If they go into reserve, then why don't you have to make a reserve roll to get them back?

Because the power says they "immediately arrive"

Which also supports my claim. Where do they arrive from if not from reserves?


They "immediately arrive using the rules for Deep Strike."

The rules for deep strike require you to place units using it in reserve. Ergo, units using Gate of Infinity MUST be arriving from reserves.

Please provide a rules quote that states the unit is placed in Reserves.

Also the rules for Deep Strike require the unit to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.

 Happyjew wrote:
Please provide a rules quote that states the unit is placed in Reserves.

"Gate of Infinity is a blessing... ...remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."

Also the rules for Deep Strike require the unit to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.

Your own words prove it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Deathmarks had to be FAQ'd to not get their multiple marks. RAW they were perfectly capable of marking multiple units.

 Ghaz wrote:
If they go into reserve, then why don't you have to make a reserve roll to get them back?

Because the power says they "immediately arrive"

Which also supports my claim. Where do they arrive from if not from reserves?


They "immediately arrive using the rules for Deep Strike."

The rules for deep strike require you to place units using it in reserve. Ergo, units using Gate of Infinity MUST be arriving from reserves.

So are they 'arriving immediately' if they go into reserve? No they're not. This more than amply disproves your claims.

Sure they are. They go into reserves and then immediately arrive(to clarify they don't wait for next turn's movement phase). This is because you can't deep strike if you aren't in reserves, thus is a mandatory(and implicit) result of casting Gate of Infinity.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Please provide a rules quote that states the unit is placed in Reserves.

"Gate of Infinity is a blessing... ...remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."

Also the rules for Deep Strike require the unit to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.

Your own words prove it.

I'm sure you can highlight where it says the unit goes into Reserves. For example:

Codex: Eldar wrote:Skyleap: ...remove the unit from the board and place it in Onoging Reserve.

Codex: Tyranids wrote:Burrow: If it does so, remove it from the table and place it into Ongoing Reserves.

Note both of those tell you to place the unit in Reserves.

Since you are insisting that all the Deep Strike rules must be used, please explain how you get around the following:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule

So only units that are entirely composed of models with the Deep Strike special rule can use GoI. And the Veil of Darkness doesn't work at all.

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves

Did you remember to roll for the unit using GoI? After all it is part of the Deep Strike rules. This also means you cannot use it Turn 1, since you do not roll for Reserves until Turn 2.


Also how are you bringing in Reserves if it is not the start of the Movement phase? You need permission to override that as well.

No they don't. 'Immediately' does not allow any side trips. Placing a unit in reserve, no matter how briefly means that you've broken the rule that they immediately arrive.

 Happyjew wrote:

I'm sure you can highlight where it says the unit goes into Reserves. For example:

Codex: Eldar wrote:Skyleap: ...remove the unit from the board and place it in Onoging Reserve.

Codex: Tyranids wrote:Burrow: If it does so, remove it from the table and place it into Ongoing Reserves.

Note both of those tell you to place the unit in Reserves.

Both of those rules are redundant wording(plentiful in GW rules), as using Deep Strike requires you to use Reserves.

Since you are insisting that all the Deep Strike rules must be used, please explain how you get around the following:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule

So only units that are entirely composed of models with the Deep Strike special rule can use GoI. And the Veil of Darkness doesn't work at all.

That may indeed be true. Fortunately all GK psykers who can get GOI have the ability to Deep Strike. You might not be able to use it if in a unit that doesn't have Deep Strike, but thats another debate.

Maybe Veil of Darkness doesn't work. It results in less of a broken game when you can't cast a psychic power at all.

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves

Did you remember to roll for the unit using GoI? After all it is part of the Deep Strike rules. This also means you cannot use it Turn 1, since you do not roll for Reserves until Turn 2.

Also how are you bringing in Reserves if it is not the start of the Movement phase? You need permission to override that as well.

Did you forget the "arrives immediately" part of GOI?

That supersedes the normal requirement to roll for reserves and that it be in the movement phase.

Even though you go into reserves and then deep strike, you still satisfy the "immediately" because nothing else happens between then. It literally happens instantaneously.

They instantaneously enter reserves, arrive, and Deep Strike. Thus satisfying all the rules.



But clearly you guys aren't willing to accept this, so best just to part ways in disagreement. We both think the other to be wrong so nothing will come of it.

slighty on topic (but mostly off, i can't find this posted anywhere else) ... the Teleport Homer rule is: it works for units of Terminators and or units with Personal Teleporters who are deep striking.

As Strike Squads in particular are not in Termie armour nor carry PTs but they have the Deep Strike rule, does this mean that they can't use Teleport Homers? Also would mean that the DK wouldn't be able to use without the 30pt upgrade (although the chappie in the harness is in Termie armour..would that count?).

Unless the unit has permission, then they must have Terminator amour listed in their wargear.

an oversight do you reckon? seems a bit daft not being able to use the homers

Possibly with the Dreadknight. Dreadknights used to have Dreadknight Armour, which allowed them to teleport. Now they do not.

 harryflashman wrote:
an oversight do you reckon? seems a bit daft not being able to use the homers

Not an oversight. The lore is that Strike Squads arrive first (without help from homers) and set up the homers for the main force of Terminators and Teleporters. And almost no one takes a Dreadknight without a teleporter now so that isn't really an issue.

 Happyjew wrote:
Possibly with the Dreadknight. Dreadknights used to have Dreadknight Armour, which allowed them to teleport. Now they do not.

Well Personal Teleporters both give Deep Strike and will trigger the Teleport Homer now. So if a Dreadknight is deep striking he can use teleport homers.

On the Eldar comment, note that the Eldar Battle Focus rule lets you move-shoot or shoot-move in the shooting phase. The Deep strike rule states that:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

So a quote of the GK Battle Focus rule would be needed to see when they do their dance.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No, sorry. As cool as this combo would be, it doesn't work.
Teleport homers and Rites of Teleportation work when you arrive from Deep Strike Reserve. When using Gate of Infinity, at no point are units ever placed in reserve.

But the rules for deep strike say you arrive from deep strike reserve. So yes it does.

Daniel has it right.
GOI says:

Gate of Infinity is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

RAW but not HIWPI, Gate is either broken or only intended to allow someone who already deep struck in to move around. The "arrives immediately" portion is simply an out of order sequencing so you can do it in the Psychic phase.

Gate says arrive following the DS rules.
The DS rules are :
1) Start off the table from reserves
2) Have the deep strike rule

GOI explicitly says to follow those rules, but does not grant those conditions to units that don't already have them. GreyTemplar and I have disagreed at length so I won't attempt to re-litigate it here, but you can see it in the Skyleap thread if interested. Note that my future lack of follow up on attempts to claim that "arrives immediately" means they go into reserves, count as having started in reserves before the game and gain the DS rule" is not an acceptance of such claims.



Also, a quote of the GK teleport homer would be useful for nonGK players to see. The SM one, for example, does NOT allow Drop Pods to come in accurately, only the locator beacon is worded that way.

The GK Teleport homer says,

Friendly units composed entirely of models in Terminator armor(including the Cuirass of Sacrifice) and/or models with a personal teleporter do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the teleport homer's bearer

The Deep Strike Rules say,

...when placing a unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)...

This shows an equivalence between arriving by Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves. A=B, therefore, a unit doing A is also doing B.


Finally, Gate of Infinity says,

...It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

So Gate of Infinity = arriving from Deep Strike.

Arriving from Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves.

Deep Strike Reserve + TDA or Personal Teleporter = may use Teleport Homer.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The GK Teleport homer says,

Friendly units composed entirely of models in Terminator armor(including the Cuirass of Sacrifice) and/or models with a personal teleporter do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the teleport homer's bearer

I'll disagree on the rest for reasons we'd just go in circles over, but thank you for the GK teleport homer (_8(|) quote. I'm glad that they wrote it as "entirely in" vs "with" so at least that's clear enough to not allow 1 termie guy to tote a PAGK squad around. I'd have been fine with "at least one model with" termie armor wording too, it's just the ambiguous states I hate.

Yeah, the older Teleport homer rules were bad because there is no difference in deep striking.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
On the Eldar comment, note that the Eldar Battle Focus rule lets you move-shoot or shoot-move in the shooting phase. The Deep strike rule states that:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

So a quote of the GK Battle Focus rule would be needed to see when they do their dance.

C:GK Rites of Teleportation, last line; "In addition, all units from this Detachment can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve."

RAW being one thing, its pretty obvious that GoI does not actually put them into reserve. It just moves them with deep strike scatter rules.

Nothing suggests that was their intent. The previous versions actually explicitly said the unit counts as arriving from reserves.

A unit using GoI isn't arriving from deep strike reserve. They cannot therefore benefit from a teleport homer.

I believe I concisely showed they in fact do count as arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. Because arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve(Per the DS rules) and GoI says you arrive immediately by deep strike anywhere on the board.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I believe I concisely showed they in fact do count as arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. Because arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve(Per the DS rules) and GoI says you arrive immediately by deep strike anywhere on the board.

Don't the Deep Strike rules also say the whole unit needs to have the Deep Strike rule, and start the game in Deep Strike Reserves?

 Happyjew wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I believe I concisely showed they in fact do count as arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. Because arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve(Per the DS rules) and GoI says you arrive immediately by deep strike anywhere on the board.

Don't the Deep Strike rules also say the whole unit needs to have the Deep Strike rule, and start the game in Deep Strike Reserves?

They do. Which RAW means that only a unit that has the ability to deep strike normally can use GoI. Not a problem in this situation.

And because GoI says you "immediately arrive" you also enter reserves when you use the power. Thus you satisfy all the requirements for deep striking.

The problem is the 'start the game' part, so just entering Reserves for a brief moment still would fail to meet the Requirements.
I loath you Deep Strike, I refuse to ever use you again because of all this poor editing and formatting....

 Grey Templar wrote:
The GK Teleport homer says,

Friendly units composed entirely of models in Terminator armor(including the Cuirass of Sacrifice) and/or models with a personal teleporter do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the teleport homer's bearer

The Deep Strike Rules say,

...when placing a unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)...

This shows an equivalence between arriving by Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves. A=B, therefore, a unit doing A is also doing B.


Finally, Gate of Infinity says,

...It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

So Gate of Infinity = arriving from Deep Strike.

Arriving from Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves.

Deep Strike Reserve + TDA or Personal Teleporter = may use Teleport Homer.

yes, this is all correct, and backed up by actual, rules.


everyone contesting that deep striking units in terminator armour/with teleporters dont get to benefit from rules they are entitled to benefit from is wrong, and they have not quoted any rules to back up their statement that arriving from deepstrike can be done more then one way, or without placing the unit into deep strike or deepstrike reseve (which GW EXPLICITLY for once, states it uses those two terms interchangeably)

RAW: yes GOI causes the unit to deep strike, and yes it benifits from any bonuses to deep striking like the homer and run/shoot bonus.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I believe I concisely showed they in fact do count as arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. Because arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve(Per the DS rules)

This is incorrect for the following reasons.

1) Nowhere in the GoI rules does it state that the unit is placed in deep strike reserves. Assuming that they do enter deep strike reserves as part of GoI therefore has no basis in RAW.
2) Nowhere in the deep strike rules does it say that if you are arriving by deep strike you are always arriving from deep strike reserve by default. What it actually says as part of the basic deep strike rules is that to be eligible to deep strike the unit must have started the game in reserve.

 Grey Templar wrote:
and GoI says you arrive immediately by deep strike anywhere on the board.

This is also incorrect. What the GoI rules actually say is that the unit "immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for deep strike" which is not the same as what you are claiming. If the unit were arriving by deep strike the GoI rule would explicitly state this, as for example in the rules for Conjured units which state "the new unit then arrives via deep strike".

The "immediately arrives" part of the rule is an explicit instruction within an advanced rule giving the unit permission to....... immediately arrive, which takes precedence over the parts of the deep strike rules regarding eligibility to deep strike. This means GoI can be successfully manifested for units containing models without the deep strike rule, and which did not start the game in reserve. The "using the rules for deep strike" part is telling you to use the same rules for actually putting the models back on the board, i.e. placement of a model, rolling for scatter etc.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Don't the Deep Strike rules also say the whole unit needs to have the Deep Strike rule, and start the game in Deep Strike Reserves?

They do. Which RAW means that only a unit that has the ability to deep strike normally can use GoI. Not a problem in this situation.

And because GoI says you "immediately arrive" you also enter reserves when you use the power. Thus you satisfy all the requirements for deep striking.

You appear to be advocating that a unit manifesting GoI must follow the deep strike rules in their entirety despite the explicit permission for the unit to immediately arrive (as discussed above). Following your logic, this would mean that a unit manifesting GoI would also have to pass a reserve roll. I'd like to know what would happen if they failed this reserve roll.

 Tonberry7 wrote:


1) Nowhere in the GoI rules does it state that the unit is placed in deep strike reserves. Assuming that they do enter deep strike reserves as part of GoI therefore has no basis in RAW.
2) Nowhere in the deep strike rules does it say that if you are arriving by deep strike you are always arriving from deep strike reserve by default. What it actually says as part of the basic deep strike rules is that to be eligible to deep strike the unit must have started the game in reserve.

As I said before, the Deep Strike rules show a 100% equivalency between arriving by Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves. They say Deep Strike reserves is just another name for Deep Striking.

In case you'd like to see for yourself, look at page 162. Very first paragraph.

I'll even quote it again.

When placing a unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

As you can see, plain as day. arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

This is also incorrect. What the GoI rules actually say is that the unit "immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for deep strike" which is not the same as what you are claiming. If the unit were arriving by deep strike the GoI rule would explicitly state this, as for example in the rules for Conjured units which state "the new unit then arrives via deep strike".

Using the rules for deep strike = deep striking. And as I have proven above, arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike reserves.

so deep striking isnt deep striking tonberry?

yup.. great argument... please stop just arguing the "rules as written" without having any written rules to support your position.

Grey has posted very clear rules on this, its not even arbitrary, GW flat out says deep strike = deep strike reserve.

end of story.

your argument is analogous to the following:

"i dont have to reduce my strength because GW said in this maledictions' rules paragraph to reduce my "strength characteristic" as opposed to simply referring to it as "strength".

 easysauce wrote:
so deep striking isnt deep striking tonberry?

yup.. great argument... please stop just arguing the "rules as written" without having any written rules to support your position.

Grey has posted very clear rules on this, its not even arbitrary, GW flat out says deep strike = deep strike reserve.

end of story.

your argument is analogous to the following:

"i dont have to reduce my strength because GW said in this maledictions' rules paragraph to reduce my "strength characteristic" as opposed to simply referring to it as "strength".

Actually, he is saying Strength = Strength Characteristic, in this example. You know, the whole Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves thing?

GoI tells us to remove the unit from the board, and immediately place the unit anywhere on the board using the Deep Strike rules. When you remove the unit, where does it go before it's placed? Per the Deep Strike rules, the unit is in Deep Strike reserves. If the unit mishaps and is returned the Deep Strike Reserves, how is the unit being "returned" if it didn't start the Deep Strike process from Deep Strike Reserves?

Yes, the rules are not tightly written. Yes, Geedub could have been more explicit in the Deep Strike USR, or the GoI power, or the Teleport Homer. However, they were not. Both RAW and RAI appear to synergize the use of Teleport Homers to support GoI. If Geedub does not want this synergy to occur, they can FAQ or Erreta it.

SJ

jeffersonian... thats what I am saying dude, we are on the same page

You're interpreting the GoI rule wrong. The part of the DS rules used for GoI is NOT the entire thing, otherwise it doesn't work on anything but units who have the deepstrike rule (a bigger issue when looking at other psykers).

GoI utilizes the DS rules for arrival, meaning placement and scatter.

 troa wrote:
You're interpreting the GoI rule wrong. The part of the DS rules used for GoI is NOT the entire thing, otherwise it doesn't work on anything but units who have the deepstrike rule (a bigger issue when looking at other psykers).

GoI utilizes the DS rules for arrival, meaning placement and scatter.

GoI says to use the rules for Deep Striking. However, the last time this came up one htread was more or less locked right away as a duplicate, and the main thread it had spawned off of was locked as it was going nowhere, and the GoI works side refused to engage in honest debate.

GoI confers the DS USR by default. This is irrefutable, because GoI specifically tells us to use the DS rules, and the DS USR can be conferred upon a unit that is bring transported. As soon as GoI is successfully cast, the unit in question is removed from the table, placed in Deep Strike Reserves, one model from the unit is placed anywhere on the table, scatter is addressed, and then the remaining models are placed if no mishap occurred. That is the sequence of steps followed per GoI and DS. GoI allows for the unit to be placed into DS Reserves after deployment, confers the DS USR on to the unit (if it did not already have the USR), and immediately deploys the unit from DS Reserves during the same Psychic phase GoI was cast. If the unit successfully arrive back on the table, the conferred DS USR is lost; however, if the unit mishapped and remained in DS Reserves, the unit would retain the conferred DS USR.

Yes, there is a lot of complexity envolved in the one power, yet in order to execute the power is written, a number of steps must be followed. If those steps are followed, then the blessed unit does infact arrive from DS Reserve, which would allow the unit to benefit from Teleport Homers if the unit was also fully TDA or PA w/ PT.

SJ

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:


1) Nowhere in the GoI rules does it state that the unit is placed in deep strike reserves. Assuming that they do enter deep strike reserves as part of GoI therefore has no basis in RAW.
2) Nowhere in the deep strike rules does it say that if you are arriving by deep strike you are always arriving from deep strike reserve by default. What it actually says as part of the basic deep strike rules is that to be eligible to deep strike the unit must have started the game in reserve.

As I said before, the Deep Strike rules show a 100% equivalency between arriving by Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves. They say Deep Strike reserves is just another name for Deep Striking.

In case you'd like to see for yourself, look at page 162. Very first paragraph.

I'll even quote it again.

When placing a unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

As you can see, plain as day. arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

This is also incorrect. What the GoI rules actually say is that the unit "immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for deep strike" which is not the same as what you are claiming. If the unit were arriving by deep strike the GoI rule would explicitly state this, as for example in the rules for Conjured units which state "the new unit then arrives via deep strike".

Using the rules for deep strike = deep striking. And as I have proven above, arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike reserves.

Simply repeating your argument unfortunately doesn't make it correct. In the case of GoI, using the placement rules for deep strike does not mean that the unit was ever placed in deep strike reserves and nothing you have quoted supports this. The rules for GoI make no reference to placing the unit in reserves.

RAW they are correct Tonberry. I realize it after reading it over so many times.

RAI they are not though. I don't know anyone who would play it that way seriously either.

Many rules are similar in the BRB so I am not that thrown off by it.

We know that GoI was meant to teleport any unit it was cast on around the table, regardless of if they have the Deep strike rule or not. GW just wrote it wrong.

 Grey Templar wrote:

When placing a unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

As you can see, plain as day. arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve

You're also completely misinterpreting this quote. What it is actually saying is that when you place a unit in reserve at the start of the game, and intend to deep strike it later, you must tell your opponent this, and it is then classed as being in deep strike reserve.

Even if a GoI unit were arriving via deep strike this would not automatically confer that they had been placed in deep strike reserve as part of the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eihnlazer wrote:
We know that GoI was meant to teleport any unit it was cast on around the table, regardless of if they have the Deep strike rule or not. GW just wrote it wrong.

This is also my view. I'm just saying they aren't arriving from deep strike reserve and therefore can't benefit from the teleport homer.

Its you who are misinterpreting it.

It says when a unit arrives by Deep Strike it is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. That applies whether it was originally placed in reserves or not, and not just to units which were originally placed in reserves like you are claiming.

And unless you can prove otherwise then its not the case.

Gate of Infinity is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

It says nothing about getting to ignore the "rules for deep strike" that require the deep strike rule nor the need to start off the board. RAW it is broken. RAI and HYWPI and HIWPI doesn't matter for YMDC.
The "arrives immediately" portion presumably means you do it in the psychic phase and don't need a roll. It does not RAW explicitly state that. Misquoting it doesn't change that, nor does butchering the English language.

I'd play it that it works for all, just like Skyleap lets you deep strike back in T2 after starting on the board.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its you who are misinterpreting it.

It says when a unit arrives by Deep Strike it is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

Can you actually cite a rule stating this rather than just assuming it? You still haven't proved that a unit using GoI enters reserves at any time in the process. They are simply moving from one location on the board to another using the rules for deep strike.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That applies whether it was originally placed in reserves or not, and not just to units which were originally placed in reserves like you are claiming.

If you're claiming that all parts of the deep strike rules must be adhered to for GoI, are you saying that the target unit must have been placed in reserve at the start of the game for the power to work? And that they have to make a reserve roll as part of manifesting GoI? What happens if they fail that roll?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its you who are misinterpreting it.

It says when a unit arrives by Deep Strike it is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

Can you actually cite a rule stating this rather than just assuming it? You still haven't proved that a unit using GoI enters reserves at any time in the process. They are simply moving from one location on the board to another using the rules for deep strike.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That applies whether it was originally placed in reserves or not, and not just to units which were originally placed in reserves like you are claiming.

If you're claiming that all parts of the deep strike rules must be adhered to for GoI, are you saying that the target unit must have been placed in reserve at the start of the game for the power to work? And that they have to make a reserve roll as part of manifesting GoI? What happens if they fail that roll?

1) I already have cited a rule stating that. Twice. Once in direct response to you. In the very post you quoted. When are you going to cite a rule that proves your side?

2) No roll is required because GoI says "arrive immediately"

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its you who are misinterpreting it.

It says when a unit arrives by Deep Strike it is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

Can you actually cite a rule stating this rather than just assuming it? You still haven't proved that a unit using GoI enters reserves at any time in the process. They are simply moving from one location on the board to another using the rules for deep strike.

I think, if he could, he would have done so by now. It's easier to just say you already proved it than to actually prove when there is no rules support on your side and you don't want to concede a point. When you have to hand waive away proofs and rely on selective quotes from multiple sources when something is explicitly spelled out in one section, you've generally got a bad position to start arguing from. This isn't always the case, such as when View A relies on five clauses you can rely on five clauses to build view B, but when view ! is clear from one quote and View B needs to splice a half dozen to cobble together a vague response.... you're generally too close to the issue to see other people's perspectives, much less concede you may be wrong.

Where I am,

DSR is a odd one, really you either believe you don't go into DSR and are just using the deployment rules or you do believe you use it but are then bound by all the restrictions, you have to start the game in DSR and every instance of use after arriving the first time via a roll (as GOI is used when your on the board yeah?) you are bound by all the restriction of arriving from reserves...

Really I don't think it's a well thought out rule. Intent could easily be the former or the latter and much RAW put forward is a bit broken or rules jumpy. I would lean to not entering DSR as seems much like the path of least restraint.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its you who are misinterpreting it.

It says when a unit arrives by Deep Strike it is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

Can you actually cite a rule stating this rather than just assuming it? You still haven't proved that a unit using GoI enters reserves at any time in the process. They are simply moving from one location on the board to another using the rules for deep strike.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That applies whether it was originally placed in reserves or not, and not just to units which were originally placed in reserves like you are claiming.

If you're claiming that all parts of the deep strike rules must be adhered to for GoI, are you saying that the target unit must have been placed in reserve at the start of the game for the power to work? And that they have to make a reserve roll as part of manifesting GoI? What happens if they fail that roll?

1) I already have cited a rule stating that. Twice. Once in direct response to you. In the very post you quoted. When are you going to cite a rule that proves your side?

No, you haven't. You keep repeating a line from the deep strike rules that doesn't actually say what you are interpreting it to.

 Grey Templar wrote:
2) No roll is required because GoI says "arrive immediately"

Ok so you're now saying that the "arrives immediately" permission allows you to ignore some parts of the deep strike rules but not others. Are you saying that the target unit must have been placed in reserve at the start of the game for the power to work or can we ignore this too?

If you're now saying they don't have to roll to come in from reserves because the rule gives the explicit permission to "arrive immediately" (which I agree with), how can you possibly maintain the position that they are are still arriving from deep strike reserve? "Immediately" means the unit disappears from their original position and reappears straight away in their new one. They don't make a detour to reserves for a quick cup of tea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nem wrote:
Where I am,

DSR is a odd one, really you either believe you don't go into DSR and are just using the deployment rules or you do believe you use it but are then bound by all the restrictions, you have to start the game in DSR and every instance of use after arriving the first time via a roll (as GOI is used when your on the board yeah?) you are bound by all the restriction of arriving from reserves...

Really I don't think it's a well thought out rule. Intent could easily be the former or the latter and much RAW put forward is a bit broken or rules jumpy. I would lean to not entering DSR as seems much like the path of least restraint.

Exactly. If you accept the RAW that the unit doesn't go into deep strike reserve, and just uses the explicit permission to arrive immediately and use the deep strike rules for placement GoI works perfectly fine.

If you start arguing that they do go into deep strike reserve in order to claim benefit from a teleport homer then you run into a lot of problems.

You ask me to cite a rule I already have, but claim it doesn't say what it very clearly does.

We're obviously done here. I have cited actual rules. You have not, but keep mewling that the rule I have cited says something totally different(yet are unable to provide proof)

I have cited rules backing up my claim. You have not.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You ask me to cite a rule I already have, but claim it doesn't say what it very clearly does.

We're obviously done here. I have cited actual rules. You have not, but keep mewling that the rule I have cited says something totally different(yet are unable to provide proof)

I have cited rules backing up my claim. You have not.

You have also completely ignored clearly stated rules the contradict your position. You have yet to provide a rationale for how GoI uses all of the Deep Strike Rules without the unit having been in Deep Strike Reserve AT THE START OF THE GAME. Which is very clearly a requirement that GoI does not fullfill.

It may or may not require you to start the game in reserves to work.

I have not been trying to touch that part(for what its worth I would agree that RAW it would require the unit to have started the game in reserves), but all I'm here to prove is that GoI can trigger the Teleport Homer and Rites of Teleportation. And I have done that.

If you would be so kind, where are these rules which "clearly contradict my position"?

 Grey Templar wrote:
You ask me to cite a rule I already have, but claim it doesn't say what it very clearly does.

We're obviously done here. I have cited actual rules. You have not, but keep mewling that the rule I have cited says something totally different(yet are unable to provide proof).

No, I'm asking you to cite a rule proving that a unit manifesting GoI is arriving from Deep strike reserve. Which you cannot. Unless you can prove this the unit can't benefit from a teleport homer.

You initially claimed that a GoI unit is arriving via deep strike and using a convoluted logic must therefore be arriving from deep strike reserve. And because they were deep striking they must abide by all of the deep striking rules. More recently you have decided that the GoI rules exempt them from making a reserve roll. You still haven't answered whether the GoI unit has to have started the game in reserve as per the deep strike rules.

Instead of addressing the glaring inconsistencies in your argument you have instead decided to describe me as "mewling". Yes, I think we probably are done here.

All of your sticking points I have clearly dealt with in my argument. Which I will again repeat for you.

Page 162, paragraph 1, line 2, clearly demonstrates that arriving by deep strike = deep strike reserves.

Page 194. Gate of Infinity. "Using the rules for deep strike." This clearly shows that you are indeed arriving by deep strike, which as I proved above also equals deep strike reserves. This satisfies one requirement for the Teleport Homer and the only requirement needed for Rites of Teleportation.

As for needing a reserves roll, that is covered by the line "immediately arrives". No roll is needed because you arrive immediately.

 Grey Templar wrote:
All of your sticking points I have clearly dealt with in my argument. Which I will again repeat for you.

Page 162, paragraph 1, line 2, clearly demonstrates that arriving by deep strike = deep strike reserves.

Page 194. Gate of Infinity. "Using the rules for deep strike." This clearly shows that you are indeed arriving by deep strike, which as I proved above also equals deep strike reserves. This satisfies one requirement for the Teleport Homer and the only requirement needed for Rites of Teleportation.

As for needing a reserves roll, that is covered by the line "immediately arrives". No roll is needed because you arrive immediately.

Pg 162 says no such thing or you would non-selectively quote it.
Gate of Infinity says:

remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

It does NOT say they go into deep strike reserve. It says they must follow the Deep Strike rules. Reasonable people would assume the "arrives immediately" lets you not wait until the beginning of your next turn and most will let you skip the roll to arrive too. That's HIWPI, but that is NOT RAW. Most people will also accept that RAW GoI is broken and won't work on anyone that did NOT start the game in Reserves, but play by a RAI method where they can, even if they don't have the DS rule on the unit/psyker. That is NOT however, RAW.

If someone reads their book and they believe they see toughness ten on all their models, and if they can get their opponent to believe them then they get to be T10 too. If you believe you you don't have to follow the actual rules as written and your opponent knowingly wants to handicap himself by giving you an advantage or if you are willing to deceive them into giving you a more favorable set of rules, then you are free to do that. HYPWI is HYWPI and not RAW and not YMDC.

Yes it does say exactly such a thing.

It says units arriving by deep strike is sometimes called deep strike reserves. Its in plain English.

All you've said is ''nuh uh, it doesn't say that'' without showing any support for your claim.

 Grey Templar wrote:
All of your sticking points I have clearly dealt with in my argument. Which I will again repeat for you.

Page 162, paragraph 1, line 2, clearly demonstrates that arriving by deep strike = deep strike reserves.

It doesn't demonstrate that at all. What it demonstrates is that when you place a unit in reserve at the start of the game, and intend to deep strike it later, you must tell your opponent this, and it is then classed as being in deep strike reserve.

What I understand your interpretation to be is "if a unit arrives by deep strike at any point in the game, the unit is treated as having arrived from deep strike reserves for all rules purposes". Which is simply not supported by RAW.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Page 194. Gate of Infinity. "Using the rules for deep strike." This clearly shows that you are indeed arriving by deep strike, which as I proved above also equals deep strike reserves. This satisfies one requirement for the Teleport Homer and the only requirement needed for Rites of Teleportation.

Here you are just compounding your error. GoI makes no mention of entering reserves at all and you have not proved that they do so by virtue of deep striking. If they were even arriving via deep strike as part of GoI and not just using the same rules for placing the models.

 Grey Templar wrote:
As for needing a reserves roll, that is covered by the line "immediately arrives". No roll is needed because you arrive immediately.

Precisely. No roll is needed because you arrive immediately and don't enter reserves at all. Even for a nanosecond. "Immediately" means nothing happens inbetween removing the models and replacing them using the deep strike rules.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It says units arriving by deep strike is sometimes called deep strike reserves. Its in plain English.

Seriously, you're just repeatedly misquoting this to suit your argument. It doesn't say that at all. It's referring to placing units in reserve that will deep strike in the future, and not indicating that the act of actually deep striking and being placed in deep strike reserves are the same thing.

Deep strike reserves is just a term to distinguish between units placed in reserve at the start of the game that will be deep striking, from units placed in reserve that will come on via their table edge. The distinction is made because you are obliged to infrom your opponent which units will arrive from reserve via deep strike. All units that are placed in deep strike reserve at the start of the game must arrive via deep strike, but this doesn't mean the reverse is automatically true, i.e. that all units using rules for deep strike have arrived from deep strike reserves.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

I don't know about you guys, but that's pretty convincing to me. I'm sure people can read into it and, after parsing and pulling out grammar dictionaries, decide that it doesn't mean what it seems to mean. But if the terms are being used synonymously, then I see it as fairly cut and dry.

Ex) "When placing Space Marines on the table, you must tell your opponent if they are equipped with Bolters (sometimes called Boltguns)."

I don't understand the confusion.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

I don't know about you guys, but that's pretty convincing to me. I'm sure people can read into it and, after parsing and pulling out grammar dictionaries, decide that it doesn't mean what it seems to mean. But if the terms are being used synonymously, then I see it as fairly cut and dry.

Ex) "When placing Space Marines on the table, you must tell your opponent if they are equipped with Bolters (sometimes called Boltguns)."

I don't understand the confusion.

DoW

So if they are the same thing, if you place a unit in deep strike reserve at the start of the game, they are also arriving by deep strike at the same time? Logic dictates you would then have to deep strike them straight away at the start of the game. This makes no sense.

 DogOfWar wrote:
"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

I don't know about you guys, but that's pretty convincing to me. I'm sure people can read into it and, after parsing and pulling out grammar dictionaries, decide that it doesn't mean what it seems to mean. But if the terms are being used synonymously, then I see it as fairly cut and dry.

Ex) "When placing Space Marines on the table, you must tell your opponent if they are equipped with Bolters (sometimes called Boltguns)."

I don't understand the confusion.

DoW

There's another way to look at that quote. There are many ways a unit can arrive via Deep Strike. Sometimes the way it arrives is by Deep Strike Reserve. Other times it can Deep Strike by means of an ability like Gate of Infinity. The two are not necessarily equal. Looking at the book it seems clear to me that the rule is describing how to place a unit into reserves if you wish to deploy them via Deep Strike. It then tells you how to deploy via Deep Strike. If you are using Gate of Infinity then you can just skip to the part about arriving via Deep Strike.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
So if they are the same thing, if you place a unit in deep strike reserve at the start of the game, they are also arriving by deep strike at the same time? Logic dictates you would then have to deep strike them straight away at the start of the game. This makes no sense.

I think that's exactly what they're saying, at least that's how I interpret it.

I think the intention was that any unit that Deep Strikes will always either be arriving from Reserves, or treated as if they are arriving from Reserves. That seems to make sense given the writers specifically indicated that Deep Strike is considered synonymous with Deep Strike Reserve. If that's the case, then even a unit that gains the ability to use the rules for Deep Strike via a circuitous means (e.g. Gate of Infinity) follows all the same rules for Deep Strike Reserves, barring any specifically mentioned exceptions (arriving immediately, etc.).

Maybe it's not what they intended, but it certainly seems to be a much simpler way of resolving GoI and any other situations that don't exactly follow the basic Deep Strike Reserves mechanic. Occam's Razor and all that jazz.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
Maybe it's not what they intended, but it certainly seems to be a much simpler way of resolving GoI and any other situations that don't exactly follow the basic Deep Strike Reserves mechanic. Occam's Razor and all that jazz.

Intent doesn't matter much in a thread that is revived and reworded repeatedly. RAW Gate of Infinity it is broken and doesn't work for anything that doesn't meet the Deep Strike rules requirements to:
1) Have the deep strike rule.
2) start off the table in deep strike reserve.

Further, in neither case RAW do GoI guys go through DSR (arrives immediately, not after brunch in DSR land) and thus they are NOT eligible for teleport homers on that basis.

RAI it should work, but that means that Hawks works too, to DSR in automatically T2 after a T1 Skyleap.

That's HIWPI and others will as has been pointed out, but that is not RAW correct.

Frankly, I'm surprised a certain someone in this thread doesn't just decide that they can ignore the scatter portion of the DS rules too. Why not deep strike them into someone else transport while you are at it and cite the out of context snippet of "arrives anywhere on the board" for fifteen pages to justify it.

Why on earth would I argue that they ignore scatter? Nothing at all suggests they would ignore that part of the DS rules. Only the need to roll for reserves is completely ignored.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why on earth would I argue that they ignore scatter? Nothing at all suggests they would ignore that part of the DS rules. Only the need to roll for reserves is completely ignored.

Who said I meant you? Sounds like a guilty conscience to me.

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
So if they are the same thing, if you place a unit in deep strike reserve at the start of the game, they are also arriving by deep strike at the same time? Logic dictates you would then have to deep strike them straight away at the start of the game. This makes no sense.

I think that's exactly what they're saying, at least that's how I interpret it.

I'm interested how you actually propose to implement this during a game. Do you, for example, say during deployment, "I'm putting this unit of terminators in deep strike reserve. But the rules say that deep strike reserve is the same as deep striking so I'm going to deep strike them now as part of my deployment." You surely can't seriously think this is right.

 DogOfWar wrote:
I think the intention was that any unit that Deep Strikes will always either be arriving from Reserves, or treated as if they are arriving from Reserves.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion regarding intent, which may or may not be correct, but there is no rules support for this.

 DogOfWar wrote:
That seems to make sense given the writers specifically indicated that Deep Strike is considered synonymous with Deep Strike Reserve.

Except they didn't, this is again just your opinion. They are two separate rules. Why would having the deep strike rule and starting the game in deep strike reserve be listed as two separate requirements to be eligible to deep strike?

 DogOfWar wrote:
If that's the case, then even a unit that gains the ability to use the rules for Deep Strike via a circuitous means (e.g. Gate of Infinity) follows all the same rules for Deep Strike Reserves, barring any specifically mentioned exceptions (arriving immediately, etc.).

Maybe it's not what they intended, but it certainly seems to be a much simpler way of resolving GoI and any other situations that don't exactly follow the basic Deep Strike Reserves mechanic. Occam's Razor and all that jazz.

DoW

The simplest way to resolve GoI would be to do exactly as instructed and remove the unit from the board, then immediately place them elsewhere using the deep strike rules for scatter, mishaps etc. Like you say, the "arriving immediately" is a specific exception to some of the deep strike rules. So no, you don't need to roll for reserves (because they don't enter reserves). You can check to see if they have the deep strike rule and if they started the game in deep strike reserves if you like, but GoI still dictates that they arrive immediately.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Lots of words

It was indeed my opinion. I think it was fairly clear that I was expressing that when I used words like "I think" and "it seems to be." I'm sorry that you were confused, but I'm glad we cleared it up.

If you would like to have a RAW argument, I'm sure Grey Templar will be happy to oblige.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Lots of words

It was indeed my opinion. I think it was fairly clear that I was expressing that when I used words like "I think" and "it seems to be." I'm sorry that you were confused, but I'm glad we cleared it up.

If you would like to have a RAW argument, I'm sure Grey Templar will be happy to oblige.

DoW

There is no confusion, at least on my part. You were fairly clear in that you claim

 DogOfWar wrote:
the writers specifically indicated that Deep Strike is considered synonymous with Deep Strike Reserve.

when in fact they didn't.

If you don't feel comfortable discussing the RAW, that's fine. Thanks for your input anyway, it was most constructive. Especially this part:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Lots of words

Oh, my apologies. I thought you'd be able to remember what you said. Try not to get too upset, this is a game about toy soldiers, after all.

I quoted the rule from the rulebook. That is the only RAW I stated. You're free to interpret as you wish, but those are indeed the Rules as Written.

Here it is again, word for word, in case you missed it:

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

Everything else is conjecture, as is my opinion on the matter.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
Oh, my apologies. I thought you'd be able to remember what you said. Try not to get too upset, this is a game about toy soldiers, after all.

I quoted the rule from the rulebook. That is the only RAW I stated. You're free to interpret as you wish, but those are indeed the Rules as Written.

Here it is again, word for word, in case you missed it:

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

Everything else is conjecture, as is my opinion on the matter.

DoW

Now I really am confused. I remember perfectly fine what I said and I'm certainly not upset. Did you have anything to actually add to the debate or do you just want to continue sniping at me given your rules arguments have fallen to pieces?

Turn the snark down, folks. If you can't play nice in here, I'll take your toys away.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Now I really am confused. I remember perfectly fine what I said and I'm certainly not upset. Did you have anything to actually add to the debate or do you just want to continue sniping at me given your rules arguments have fallen to pieces?

You were obviously upset that I didn't quote your entire post. It's also fairly obvious that you were offended that I quoted "lots of words," (you wouldn't have addressed it if you weren't) so you have my genuine apologies. I don't like long quotes and breaking up your various comments would have been too tedious, especially since my response was very simple. It was not intended as a personal insult.

Seriously though, I've read through many of your comments and I think you really do need to relax a little. This forum isn't a battle or a competition, it's a way for people to learn more about the rules. It's really not designed to be a dick-measuring contest, even though many people seem to think it is. Getting angry and combative online is about as productive as keying your own car.

Back on topic, the original question was whether Teleport Homers and Rites of Teleportation work with GoI. The stumbling point (as I see it) is whether a unit that is in Deep Strike is also considered to be in Reserves. I see a quoted rule in the book that says the two terms—namely Deep Strike Reserve and Deep Strike—are used synonymously. That's enough for me to determine that if a unit is affected by a rule that forces them to Deep Strike at some point in the game, they are considered to be (if only for a moment) in Deep Strike Reserves.

If you disagree, that's fine, and I promise you I won't judge you for it. This being said, neither side has 'proven' anything with any degree of concreteness. Is it still nebulous? Of course. So it seems that we'll all have to choose how we want to play it based on the limited information we have.

To make it abundantly clear, given the sparse RAW that is available in the Rulebook, my RAI and HIWPI is that GoI can benefit from Rites of Teleportation and Teleport Homers.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Now I really am confused. I remember perfectly fine what I said and I'm certainly not upset. Did you have anything to actually add to the debate or do you just want to continue sniping at me given your rules arguments have fallen to pieces?

You were obviously upset that I didn't quote your entire post. It's also fairly obvious that you were offended that I quoted "lots of words," (you wouldn't have addressed it if you weren't) so you have my genuine apologies. I don't like long quotes and breaking up your various comments would have been too tedious, especially since my response was very simple. It was not intended as a personal insult.

I can assure you I didn't take it as a personal insult, no apology is required. I actually found it quite amusing. If anything, a dismissive description of someone elses views as "lots of words" can only really detract from the strength of an argument.

 DogOfWar wrote:
Seriously though, I've read through many of your comments and I think you really do need to relax a little. This forum isn't a battle or a competition, it's a way for people to learn more about the rules. It's really not designed to be a dick-measuring contest, even though many people seem to think it is. Getting angry and combative online is about as productive as keying your own car.

I completely agree. It's hard to judge someones mood through an online post but I think in this case you may be interpreting conviction of opinion with anger. I'd also agree that many people prefer to start sniping at others instead of presenting a rational argument, unfortunately when this happens it makes it harder to have a reasoned discussion about the rules in question.

 DogOfWar wrote:
Back on topic, the original question was whether Teleport Homers and Rites of Teleportation work with GoI. The stumbling point (as I see it) is whether a unit that is in Deep Strike is also considered to be in Reserves. I see a quoted rule in the book that says the two terms—namely Deep Strike Reserve and Deep Strike—are used synonymously. That's enough for me to determine that if a unit is affected by a rule that forces them to Deep Strike at some point in the game, they are considered to be (if only for a moment) in Deep Strike Reserves.

Yes. Firstly, to better understand your position, I'm curious as to what you mean exactly when you say "in Deep Strike". Do you mean a unit that is in the process of Deep Striking or one that has been placed in Deep Strike Reserve? I'm assuming the former but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Regarding that oft-quoted line from the deep strike rules, I think that it could certainly have been more clearly worded, but don't agree that it is defining that arriving by Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing. Arriving by Deep Strike is a method of deploying a unit on the board, while Deep Strike Reserves is a term used to describe units placed in Reserves that have been nominated to arrive by Deep Strike at such time that they are deployed. The distinction between Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves is a necessary one as the rules require you to tell your opponent which of your Reserves will be arriving via Deep Strike.

Any unit placed in Deep Strike Reserves therefore must arrive via Deep Strike when they deploy, but there is no logical or RAW basis to dictate that the reverse must be true for a unit starting the turn on the board - i.e. that a unit Deep Striking due to GoI must have arrived from Deep Strike Reserves. After all, the GoI unit was not in reserves when the power was manifested, and there is no mention within the GoI rules of ever entering Deep Strike Reserves as part of resolving the power, even for a moment. Furthermore, I believe the phrase "immediately arrives" within the GoI rules demonstrates that once the unit is removed from the board, they effectively instantaneously appear at their chosen location without ever entering Reserves in between.

My position remains that because the GoI unit never enters Deep Strike Reserve and therefore is not arriving from Deep Strike Reserve in resolving the power, that it cannot benefit from a Teleport Homer.

 DogOfWar wrote:
If you disagree, that's fine, and I promise you I won't judge you for it. This being said, neither side has 'proven' anything with any degree of concreteness. Is it still nebulous? Of course. So it seems that we'll all have to choose how we want to play it based on the limited information we have.

Yes, agreed, ultimately how we want to play any particular rule is a free choice. It is a game after all.

tonberry7 wrote:I completely agree. It's hard to judge someones mood through an online post but I think in this case you may be interpreting conviction of opinion with anger. I'd also agree that many people prefer to start sniping at others instead of presenting a rational argument, unfortunately when this happens it makes it harder to have a reasoned discussion about the rules in question.

Thank you for clarifying your views.

I think that perhaps the key point in this situation is that some people aren't interested in arguing. Some are, of course (and I can certainly be in the mood for a good debate every now and then), but sometimes people are really just interested in voicing their view so that others can add it to the meat of their own discussion. I really hope it doesn't sound harsh, but my original comment wasn't directed towards you at all. You felt the need to address it, however, and while I really don't mean to be rude, I don't care what you think about my reading of this particular rule. I appreciate you taking the time to address it, of course, but I made the mistake of allowing you to draw me into the argument.

I shared my view and how I would play the issue, but I really should have left the thread at that point. It was my mistake for engaging with you and I'll have to file that one away for next time.

DoW

Sometimes I wish there was a way to report, in order to reward, polite behavior on this board....

 DogOfWar wrote:

tonberry7 wrote:I completely agree. It's hard to judge someones mood through an online post but I think in this case you may be interpreting conviction of opinion with anger. I'd also agree that many people prefer to start sniping at others instead of presenting a rational argument, unfortunately when this happens it makes it harder to have a reasoned discussion about the rules in question.

Thank you for clarifying your views.

I think that perhaps the key point in this situation is that some people aren't interested in arguing. Some are, of course (and I can certainly be in the mood for a good debate every now and then), but sometimes people are really just interested in voicing their view so that others can add it to the meat of their own discussion. I really hope it doesn't sound harsh, but my original comment wasn't directed towards you at all. You felt the need to address it, however, and while I really don't mean to be rude, I don't care what you think about my reading of this particular rule. I appreciate you taking the time to address it, of course, but I made the mistake of allowing you to draw me into the argument.

I shared my view and how I would play the issue, but I really should have left the thread at that point. It was my mistake for engaging with you and I'll have to file that one away for next time.

DoW

And I really thought we were going to stick to the topic from now on. I addressed your initial post as I didn't think you were interpreting things correctly, and wanted to try and discuss the reasons why. Isn't that the whole point of a debate?

If you didn't want anyone to discuss your views, or if you don't care what anyone else thinks, is there even any point in entering a rules debate?

 Tonberry7 wrote:
And I really thought we were going to stick to the topic from now on. I addressed your initial post as I didn't think you were interpreting things correctly, and wanted to try and discuss the reasons why. Isn't that the whole point of a debate?

If you didn't want anyone to discuss your views, or if you don't care what anyone else thinks, is there even any point in entering a rules debate?

That's a valid question.

I don't have a lot of posts, but I see that you don't either. In my relatively short time visiting YMDC, I've learned that many people do indeed want to engage in a discussion and actively pick apart ideas in the hopes of reaching a solid, logical, concrete conclusion. Others want to simply put in their 2 cents and treat it more like a poll or a vote. Often—especially if it deals with a particularly nebulous piece of GW's writing—there is no 'correct' answer and the thread circles the drain, the same points being brought up in slightly different ways, until it's locked by a Mod.

Occasionally these two types of people misunderstand each other and one will make the mistake of being drawn into an argument for which they really don't have a vested interest. It's not necessarily anyone's fault, but it's probably something to consider for next time. Sometimes it's literally just about sharing opinions and viewpoints, rather than delving into a logical parsing of sentence structure with a middle-finger shaped 'QED' at the end.

Both are fine, depending on the situation, but it's probably good to remember that not everyone wants to have a fight about it. In this case, it was certainly my fault for actively responding to you (and probably confusing you to boot), so you have my apologies there.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
And I really thought we were going to stick to the topic from now on. I addressed your initial post as I didn't think you were interpreting things correctly, and wanted to try and discuss the reasons why. Isn't that the whole point of a debate?

If you didn't want anyone to discuss your views, or if you don't care what anyone else thinks, is there even any point in entering a rules debate?

That's a valid question.

I don't have a lot of posts, but I see that you don't either. In my relatively short time visiting YMDC, I've learned that many people do indeed want to engage in a discussion and actively pick apart ideas in the hopes of reaching a solid, logical, concrete conclusion. Others want to simply put in their 2 cents and treat it more like a poll or a vote. Often—especially if it deals with a particularly nebulous piece of GW's writing—there is no 'correct' answer and the thread circles the drain, the same points being brought up in slightly different ways, until it's locked by a Mod.

Occasionally these two types of people misunderstand each other and one will make the mistake of being drawn into an argument for which they really don't have a vested interest. It's not necessarily anyone's fault, but it's probably something to consider for next time. Sometimes it's literally just about sharing opinions and viewpoints, rather than delving into a logical parsing of sentence structure with a middle-finger shaped 'QED' at the end.

Both are fine, depending on the situation, but it's probably good to remember that not everyone wants to have a fight about it. In this case, it was certainly my fault for actively responding to you (and probably confusing you to boot), so you have my apologies there.

DoW

Indeed. Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion, even if the are wrong. They can't expect to post something on here and not elicit a response though.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Indeed. Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion, even if the are wrong. They can't expect to post something on here and not elicit a response though.

While you quoted me, I really don't feel you actually read it. The entire crux of my post there was to highlight the fact that sometimes there isn't a right or wrong answer. Moreover, even if there is—such as the classic "WraithKnights can't shoot because they don't have eyes" argument—it's nonsensical to follow that line of reasoning.

Don't worry, in time you'll realize that always arguing pure RAW is a rather foolish road to take. That way lies madness. Ask GWAR.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Indeed. Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion, even if the are wrong. They can't expect to post something on here and not elicit a response though.

While you quoted me, I really don't feel you actually read it. The entire crux of my post there was to highlight the fact that sometimes there isn't a right or wrong answer. Moreover, even if there is—such as the classic "WraithKnights can't shoot because they don't have eyes" argument—it's nonsensical to follow that line of reasoning.

Don't worry, in time you'll realize that always arguing pure RAW is a rather foolish road to take. That way lies madness. Ask GWAR.

DoW

I certainly accept that there are cases where the rules just aren't clear enough, and as such there isn't really a right or wrong answer. In these instances I'm perfectly happy to concede that this is the case (even though I might have an opinion on the matter), and that an FAQ could be of benefit to all concerned.

It's also true however that in a lot of cases there actually is a correct way to play it based on the RAW. Sometimes people aren't sure, or may need a little convincing, and that's where YMDC can certainly be of help. What can be counter-productive however is when someone is obviously deliberately misinterpreting or misquoting something to support their arguments.

You've kindly pointed out that I don't have many posts on this forum, perhaps, in time, when I have a few more posts under my belt, this will allow me to realise, as you suggest, that I am confused.

SO, we seem to be done here.