So with recent success of these lists at Nova, I was wondering if I could get some tips from people that run it.

Seems to be 2 variations that work, Nurgle and Slaanesh. Builds?

What powers do you roll? How do you balance the desire to summon with wanting to buff your guys with Biomancy?

I got 11th overall with nurgle princes, but was 5th overall before dropping at the end of round 6... that being said....

My list was:

Fateweaver
GUO, Exalted gift, lvl 3

17 pink horrors
13 pink horrors

3 x nurgle prince, wings, armour, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts


I roll powers as following. Starting g with princes I roll on Demonology. If I get a 1 4 or 5, then I keep it and roll again. Should the second roll be a 2 3 or 6, then I swap it for the primaris.

If a prince rolls a combination of 1 4 and 5 on the first two rolls, then the third roll just goes towards demonology too.

If I've swapped out the second roll for the primaris then the third roll is generally on biomancy, seeking iron arm, life leach, or endurance to help keep princes alive. If I'm fighting wraithknights or riptides, I often roll the 3rd power on telepathy to take psychic shriek.

Psychic shriek is exceptionally good with fateweaver since if you roll a 6, 4, and a 1, you can re roll only the 1 and have a shot and instantly killing an unwounded wraithknight.

It's also worth noting that the nurgle princes gain chaos focus nurgle and that template weapon is no joke.

Please link to the results or at least share the lists

Well master shake there is one of em, thanks dude for posting.

Shake, what did you lose to and what's a bad matchup for the list?

Now we're just missing the Welsh guy with the slaanesh version. Anyone know his user name?

Basically, I lost to being too drunk. Haha

Ha. Ok. So what do you find is a bad matchup and how do you overcome it?

Serpent spam is not the best match up but that can be mitigated by really taking advantage of the summoning aspect of the demons. Nothing says feth wave serpents like summoning 30 demonettes with cursed earth on turn 1!

Why do you go with a number of 17 and 13 in your pink horrors instead of 3 12s? Points?

Why do you choose 2 Greater Gifts for Each of the Princes? And not go for Portaglyph.

Sorry if the questions come off a little pokey, I am genuinely curious as to this specific build as I think it is good. Just curious.

Your Warp Charge count is 22 i believe. I find myself perfectly fine at the 20 to 25 range of Warp Charge because Dice roll adds more , did you feel like you did not have enough warp charge?? To little?

1 Greater Gift is for the Balesword, the other for survivability.

Instant Death on a maneuverable FMC spells death to all other MCs in the game stave possibly the Avatar.

I was very surprised to see the Number of FMC builds doing well in Nova!!! I'm very interested in the Slaanesh builds. This one especially
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/12th-Overall-James-Ramsay-Nova-Open-2014.pdf
My main question is how do they FMCs do damage now that assault and vector strike been nerfed?

I'd like to know how often you flew the MC and how important LoS Blocking terrain was.

Also Congrats master shake. nice placing.

Just thought too, isn't psychic shriek a LD test. So the opponent would roll it and then FW couldn't re-roll it?

 sickening wrote:
I was very surprised to see the Number of FMC builds doing well in Nova!!! I'm very interested in the Slaanesh builds. This one especially
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/12th-Overall-James-Ramsay-Nova-Open-2014.pdf
My main question is how do they FMCs do damage now that assault and vector strike been nerfed?

It depends on your list really.

Daemon FMCs tend to be Daemons Prince of Slaanesh for absurd amounts of shooting. Since the Lash of Despair is Str User the Daemon Prince rolling 3 times on Biomancy can be str 9 with Iron Arm. Which gives you 2D6 shots at Str 9.

You will get players like myself who will run Daemon Prince of Nurgle builds with Baleswords and Exalted Rewards. I you roll a 4-5 you tend to take an Artifact in it's place (Portaglyph) but what you're really trying to get is Rift Bringer or Soul Eater. Even Wind of Chaos can be helpful if you decide you want to fly around as a Slaaneshi Prince, since if gives you another weapon to fire. But for Daemons of Nurgle you're looking for Rift and Soul Eater for CC. Because that's what you'll be doing with Nurgle Princes. You have a 12" movement phase and a 2+ Cover save. If your board has sufficient terrain you will even have LoS blocking. This means that you will be getting into CC turn 2/3 depending on how you play your cards.

.

Are you talking about Jumping them every turn and not flying? I thought about doing the say with Tzeentch Princes and Be'Lakor casting shrouding. It will give you a 2+ cover save re rolling 1s and hitting at S8 in CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AutarchRion
GUO=Great Unclean One

 sickening wrote:
Are you talking about Jumping them every turn and not flying? I thought about doing the say with Tzeentch Princes and Be'Lakor casting shrouding. It will give you a 2+ cover save re rolling 1s and hitting at S8 in CC.

I have thought about this a lot and the biggest problem with it is you have to keep everything so close together.

Hollismason wrote:
Why do you go with a number of 17 and 13 in your pink horrors instead of 3 12s? Points?

Why do you choose 2 Greater Gifts for Each of the Princes? And not go for Portaglyph.

Sorry if the questions come off a little pokey, I am genuinely curious as to this specific build as I think it is good. Just curious.

Your Warp Charge count is 22 i believe. I find myself perfectly fine at the 20 to 25 range of Warp Charge because Dice roll adds more , did you feel like you did not have enough warp charge?? To little?

I go with 13 and 17 because the points aren't there for 3 units of 12. Plus, having 13 and 17 allows me to cast sacrifice without sacrifice a power level on the horrors.

....which leads me into your next question. 2 greater gifts are for survivability. I generally only take a balesword if I roll a bad gift or I really need it. I don't take an Exalted because it's simply not as good as a greater on a prince. I can always summon a Herald with a portal glyph too.

My warp charge count is 21, and I find it to be ample in most cases for cursed earth and 3 warp charge 3 powers.

 sickening wrote:
I was very surprised to see the Number of FMC builds doing well in Nova!!! I'm very interested in the Slaanesh builds. This one especially
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/12th-Overall-James-Ramsay-Nova-Open-2014.pdf
My main question is how do they FMCs do damage now that assault and vector strike been nerfed?

I was using the Slaanesh FMC build that came 12th. I was doing well and lost ultimately to Tom who was running Eldar/dark eldar. I was pretty lucky in that game and had it in the bag when it went to turn 7 until I messed up on the last turn with how I claimed objectives. I blame tiredness after 10 games and jetlag after travelling 4000 miles!

The slaanesh vs nurgle vs tzeentch prince debate depending on play style and meta. I prefer the slaanesh version because I am naturally quite aggressive and prefer the extra shooting option and the run/fleet can be very useful when you do land.

Ultimately when I rolled my gifts/powers it depends on who I was against.

Normally If against heavy mech like knights I go all out on biomancy hoping for iron arm for str 9 lashes as mentioned previously.
Against infantry normally took shriek 1st (even over invis etc) and then roll daemonology or biomancy depending on rest of the powers.

The terrain was crucial to how the army worked. Without the heavy terrain you would have to use a bastion definitely.

Always took lash for 1st gift unless i rolled reroll invun and 4+ fnp and didn't need it.

I used most of my dice on 1-2 dice beam of change/flickering fire/shrieks/pavane of slaanesh etc. The pavane is so good, so so so good. It takes apart most invisible units and can deny jink saves if used carefully. If I had had another model I would have used a 3rd slaanesh prince over belakor but I changed my list while I was in the US (from screamer council etc) but I felt bad using that tiny model! Belakor was very good but the more beams/lashes you have the better!!

 Master Shake wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Why do you go with a number of 17 and 13 in your pink horrors instead of 3 12s? Points?

Why do you choose 2 Greater Gifts for Each of the Princes? And not go for Portaglyph.

Sorry if the questions come off a little pokey, I am genuinely curious as to this specific build as I think it is good. Just curious.

Your Warp Charge count is 22 i believe. I find myself perfectly fine at the 20 to 25 range of Warp Charge because Dice roll adds more , did you feel like you did not have enough warp charge?? To little?

I go with 13 and 17 because the points aren't there for 3 units of 12. Plus, having 13 and 17 allows me to cast sacrifice without sacrifice a power level on the horrors.

....which leads me into your next question. 2 greater gifts are for survivability. I generally only take a balesword if I roll a bad gift or I really need it. I don't take an Exalted because it's simply not as good as a greater on a prince. I can always summon a Herald with a portal glyph too.

My warp charge count is 21, and I find it to be ample in most cases for cursed earth and 3 warp charge 3 powers.

Cool, thanks for the answers, yes I obsessively talk with other players about Chaos Daemons and Chaos Daemon summoned based armies, as it's very far and few between for people to show up with them, despite me believing that Summoning is one of the more powerful tools in winning tournaments due to ease of grabbing objectives.

Anything you'd want to change about the army?

Nothing.

I feel like Be'lakor is a chump. Serpent shields destroy him.

I don't particularly care for him, a lot of people use him though. I actually don't really use Fateweaver but that's me.

Basically I wouldn't use Belakor normally, but he was quite good at Nova because of the ridiculous terrain (and his ridiculous height helps!). He punked quite a few wraithknights and also helped me against Gareth Hunt's Knights/Grinders and the 2 other knight armies I played. Nobody could see him unless I wanted them to. His biggest weakness is obviously getting hit by lots of ignore shots (a broadside pack he is terrified of, or serpents) and that he can't mix and match his powers.

The more I play it the more i like using supplemental list that has some punch when it comes to Daemon Summoning. I haven't used FMC yet, I lean towards Slaanesh, so it'd be a KOS for me. I also really love Soul Grinders so it's hard to give up my precious Soul Grinders.

In your experience, do you think Codex Daemons DPs are more effective or Codex CSM?

If you choose Nurgle DP in CSM, he get's +1 tougness, and different weapon options, than a DP from Codex Daemons. Plus, if my memory is working...they are not slow and purposeful in Codex CSM. Which versions tend to do better in competitive play?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, anyone know of a really good flying circus battle report i could watch? i would like to see how skilled players run a list like this on the tabletop.

Master Shake and Jpr:

Besides aurarch's question above about possibly using csm princes (a good one!) I have another:

How do you guys use the walking GD (GUO/KoS)? Especially the KoS seems like she'd just die to serpents and the like.

AutarchRion wrote:In your experience, do you think Codex Daemons DPs are more effective or Codex CSM?

If you choose Nurgle DP in CSM, he get's +1 tougness, and different weapon options, than a DP from Codex Daemons. Plus, if my memory is working...they are not slow and purposeful in Codex CSM. Which versions tend to do better in competitive play?.

No this is wrong. DPs in CSM don't get Mark of Nurgle they get Daemon of Nurgle which does the same thing as it does in Codex: Daemons (so Shrouded and Slow & Purposeful). CSM DPoN also have to roll at least one power on CSM's terrible Nurgle discipline which Daemon DPoN do not. The only difference from there is the ability to take the Black Mace and Spell Familiar instead of Greater Rewards. So CSM princes trade in all chances for durabilty for damage and that's not tha great because they die really easily already so need that extra defense from greater rewards to stay alive. Also since you'd ally it in you forced to spend an additional 50 pts minimum on bad troops.

Budzerker wrote:Master Shake and Jpr:

Besides aurarch's question above about possibly using csm princes (a good one!) I have another:

How do you guys use the walking GD (GUO/KoS)? Especially the KoS seems like she'd just die to serpents and the like.

KoS are better then LoC and BT in 7ed because FMC got nerfed hard.

It gets to combat the most reliably now for the price. With the nerf to FMCs changing flight modes it means often they will get shot down just as fast as the Keeper on the turn they change modes but you are still paying a premium for FMC status. Since KoS has +3" to running and Fleet it means its consistently fast enough to make reliable turn 2 charges just like the BT and LoC can so generally just as good at reaching combat as any other GD but for cheaper. Also is pretty much an par for combat stats as any of the GDs being so is still up to snuff there.

Plus the Keeper's psychic prowess is nothing to sneeze at namely because of Telepathy. You can always get Psychic Shriek which is an amazing witchfire (and you can still run after using it) but you also can roll shrouding and best of all Invisibility. If you get Invis then she is superior to all other greater daemons by a landslide.

As for the GUO the only viable way to use one is to take 2 greater rewards, roll triple biomancy and deep strike it. If you get a bunch of extra durabilty from rewards and biomancy then it's hard to reliably kill but its so slow (having S&P) that it is extremely easy to just run away from it so you have to deep strike it right in the middle of the enemy to have any chance of doing something.

I still think FMC is very effective if you build and play around it well. I just played a couple games with a Lord of Change and Tzeentch Daemon Prince supported by Be'Lakor and I can tell you they shrugged off an absurd amount of firepower even without the greater rewards tables. 2+ rerollable cover saves on the tzeentch daemons got me far enough into the enemy lines to then split and engage 3 different units in close combat and wipe out any threats. (Although one prince did get shut down and killed by those pesky mindshackle scarabs so I diverted a couple maulerfiends to deal with that unit.). That was at 1500 and my next games will be 1850 where I should be able to get a 4th FMC in.

I actually really like Keeper of Secrets and Slaanesh Daemon Princes instead of Nurgle.The main reason being Daemon Princes of Slaanesh get the Lash, and can go Biomancy or Telepathy. I go Biomancy first hoping for Iron Arm.A KOS w/ Level 3 and 2 Greater 1 Lesser is boss and comes in a good deal cheaper.Also in Regards to Slaanesh, there is one thing that Slaanesh get's that is super helpful and it may not be the most powerful.Is the fact that it's Primary , is a BEAM. So you can hit Invisible units with it, unfortunately it is only ST6 but it does have rending and again it can fire in the Psychic Phase and run.

KOS Being able to Shoot in the psychic phase with Psychic Shriek then Run D6 + 3 is huge.

It's also like 80 or more points cheaper and taking greater gifts can make it pretty much a beast in combat.


Also, armies can weep openly at a 24 inch ST6 Rending BEAM. That's pretty great.


What are peoples opinions on something like this?


Keeper w/ Level 3, 2 Greater Gifts

Heralds
Herald Of Slaanesh , Lvl 2,
Herald of Slaanesh, Lvl 2 ,
Herald of Slaanesh , Lvl 2, w/ Steed
Herald of Slaanesh, Lvl 2 , w/ Steed , Exalted (Portaglyph)

Total : 715
Warp Charge : 11

Troops
12 Pink Horrors 108
12 Pink Horrors 108
15 Daemonettes of Slaanesh , w/ Icon , Musician

Total : 371
Warp Charge : 4


Fast Attack
13 Seekers of Slaanesh w/ Heart Seeker, Icon , Musician

Total : 181


H. Support
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh w/ Greater Gift, Level 3 , Wings
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh w Greater Gift, Level 3 , Wings

Total : 580
Warp Charge 6

Total Warp Charge : 21
Total Cost : 1842

Total Number of Possible Psychic Shrieks : 7
Total Number of ST6 Beams : 7
Total Number of Rolls on Telepathy possible : 13
Total possible Invisibility or Shrouding : 13
Total Summoning Units : 9

Should I save points and just go with Daemonettes?


Keeper w/ Level 3, 2 Greater Gifts

Heralds
Herald Of Slaanesh , Lvl 2,
Herald of Slaanesh, Lvl 2 ,
Herald of Slaanesh , Lvl 2, w/ Steed
Herald of Slaanesh, Lvl 2 , w/ Steed , Exalted (Portaglyph)

Total : 715
Warp Charge : 11

Troops

13 Daemonettes of Slaanesh , w/ Icon , Musician
13 Daemonettes of Slaanesh

Total : 274

Warp Charge : 0

H. Support
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh w/ Greater Gift, Level 3 , Wings
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh w Greater Gift, Level 3 , Wings
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh w/ Greater Gift , Level 3 Wings

Total : 870

Warp Charge 9

Total Warp Charge : 20

However, with a low number of units, it is actually possible I could cast Invisibility on everything or at least 50 to 75% of the army.

Total Cost : 1839

Dont forget that any UNIT may only cast 1 ability with the same name per psychic phase (Therefore, if you plan to put all your Heralds in that one squad of Seekers, you can only cast Psychic Shriek once from the UNIT.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Dont forget that any UNIT may only cast 1 ability with the same name per psychic phase (Therefore, if you plan to put all your Heralds in that one squad of Seekers, you can only cast Psychic Shriek once from the UNIT.

Yeah, this isn't true like at all please stop saying it and promoting it it's just wrong on multiple levels and it keeps popping up on the forums and it's annoying as it starts this whole argument. We don't play it that way and neither does any of the other tournaments (Nova, BAO, Adepticon, Local) or people we know , which we go by. It's a rules debate issue because if you play it that way then you can't cast powers when you join a Psyker to a normal squad because of that interpretation.

So yeah, you can play it that way if you like but it's going to hamstring the game. If you play it that way that's fine but realize that if you follow that way you can never cast a power if you have a psyker in a squad because there's no way to select that unit as there is no such thing as a Psychic Unit. You're welcome to open that can of worms in YMDC, but generally everyone has agreed that they mean a model with the Psyker special rule as there's literally no such thing as a Psyker unit in the game but instead individual models with a Psyker rule. That's the jist of it. It's a huge can of worms just like the how many psychic powers can you cast thing.

Hollismason wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Dont forget that any UNIT may only cast 1 ability with the same name per psychic phase (Therefore, if you plan to put all your Heralds in that one squad of Seekers, you can only cast Psychic Shriek once from the UNIT.

Yeah, this isn't true like at all please stop saying it and promoting it it's just wrong on multiple levels and it keeps popping up on the forums and it's annoying as it starts this whole argument. We don't play it that way and neither does any of the other tournaments (Nova, BAO, Adepticon, Local) or people we know , which we go by. It's a rules debate issue because if you play it that way then you can't cast powers when you join a Psyker to a normal squad because of that interpretation.

So yeah, you can play it that way if you like but it's going to hamstring the game. If you play it that way that's fine but realize that if you follow that way you can never cast a power if you have a psyker in a squad because there's no way to select that unit as there is no such thing as a Psychic Unit. You're welcome to open that can of worms in YMDC, but generally everyone has agreed that they mean a model with the Psyker special rule as there's literally no such thing as a Psyker unit in the game but instead individual models with a Psyker rule. That's the jist of it. It's a huge can of worms just like the how many psychic powers can you cast thing.

I must be mistaken then. I guess I'll have to re read the whole psychic phase again since I can recall something about either A) The same psychic ability cannot be cast twice in succession, or B) Witchfires cannot be cast twice in succession unless otherwise stated

Citing would be helpful

The same model can not attempt to cast the same psychic power more than once is the way people interpret it because RAW it doesn't like make sense at all unfortunately. It's one of the " Whoops , broke game" things. It's one of the bigger issues with the Psychic Rules.

If you read the BAO FAQ, and others you'll see they all FAQed it because it doesn't make sense. If you do it the other way you get all kinds of weird gak like a model that's in a unit with a psyker being allowed to suffer a perils or the whole unit disappearing if you get possession etc..


Check out the NOVA and BAO rules in Tournaments forum they have FAQs, and I highly recommend them, my group and in fact most Tournaments at least abides by them over GW until GW makes one as its such a easy neutral source and they're just really well done and settle a lot of headaches.

BAO faq, first page under psychic states multiple psykers from the same unit cannot manifest the same power in a single phase.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4VC3WZFH6Hnek1leHN4anRncDg/preview?pli=1

I know for a fact the stupid rules of " Disappearing Psyker" came up with some guy in a game at BAO.

My bad though was pretty sure BAO followed NOVA.

Maybe this could help:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609539.page

 Master Shake wrote:
I got 11th overall with nurgle princes, but was 5th overall before dropping at the end of round 6... that being said....

My list was:

Fateweaver
GUO, Exalted gift, lvl 3

17 pink horrors
13 pink horrors

3 x nurgle prince, wings, armour, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts


I roll powers as following. Starting g with princes I roll on Demonology. If I get a 1 4 or 5, then I keep it and roll again. Should the second roll be a 2 3 or 6, then I swap it for the primaris.

If a prince rolls a combination of 1 4 and 5 on the first two rolls, then the third roll just goes towards demonology too.

If I've swapped out the second roll for the primaris then the third roll is generally on biomancy, seeking iron arm, life leach, or endurance to help keep princes alive. If I'm fighting wraithknights or riptides, I often roll the 3rd power on telepathy to take psychic shriek.

Psychic shriek is exceptionally good with fateweaver since if you roll a 6, 4, and a 1, you can re roll only the 1 and have a shot and instantly killing an unwounded wraithknight.

It's also worth noting that the nurgle princes gain chaos focus nurgle and that template weapon is no joke.

Out of curiosity, do you think this list could be made with a Tzeentch focus? The other list posted in here was similar but Slaanesh + Be'Lakor, but with save rerolls and extra Psychic power, how do you think a Lord of Change led force would fare?

Requizen wrote:

 Master Shake wrote:
I got 11th overall with nurgle princes, but was 5th overall before dropping at the end of round 6... that being said....

My list was:

Fateweaver
GUO, Exalted gift, lvl 3

17 pink horrors
13 pink horrors

3 x nurgle prince, wings, armour, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts


I roll powers as following. Starting g with princes I roll on Demonology. If I get a 1 4 or 5, then I keep it and roll again. Should the second roll be a 2 3 or 6, then I swap it for the primaris.

If a prince rolls a combination of 1 4 and 5 on the first two rolls, then the third roll just goes towards demonology too.

If I've swapped out the second roll for the primaris then the third roll is generally on biomancy, seeking iron arm, life leach, or endurance to help keep princes alive. If I'm fighting wraithknights or riptides, I often roll the 3rd power on telepathy to take psychic shriek.

Psychic shriek is exceptionally good with fateweaver since if you roll a 6, 4, and a 1, you can re roll only the 1 and have a shot and instantly killing an unwounded wraithknight.

It's also worth noting that the nurgle princes gain chaos focus nurgle and that template weapon is no joke.

Out of curiosity, do you think this list could be made with a Tzeentch focus? The other list posted in here was similar but Slaanesh + Be'Lakor, but with save rerolls and extra Psychic power, how do you think a Lord of Change led force would fare?

I think that the Jink+Shrouded special rule for Nurgle DPs is essential IMO. Without that 2+ cover, DPs become very fragile. The key is to get the 4+ FNP greater reward and just jink all the way up the tabletop and crush people in CC.

AutarchRion wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Master Shake wrote:
I got 11th overall with nurgle princes, but was 5th overall before dropping at the end of round 6... that being said....

My list was:

Fateweaver
GUO, Exalted gift, lvl 3

17 pink horrors
13 pink horrors

3 x nurgle prince, wings, armour, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts


I roll powers as following. Starting g with princes I roll on Demonology. If I get a 1 4 or 5, then I keep it and roll again. Should the second roll be a 2 3 or 6, then I swap it for the primaris.

If a prince rolls a combination of 1 4 and 5 on the first two rolls, then the third roll just goes towards demonology too.

If I've swapped out the second roll for the primaris then the third roll is generally on biomancy, seeking iron arm, life leach, or endurance to help keep princes alive. If I'm fighting wraithknights or riptides, I often roll the 3rd power on telepathy to take psychic shriek.

Psychic shriek is exceptionally good with fateweaver since if you roll a 6, 4, and a 1, you can re roll only the 1 and have a shot and instantly killing an unwounded wraithknight.

It's also worth noting that the nurgle princes gain chaos focus nurgle and that template weapon is no joke.

Out of curiosity, do you think this list could be made with a Tzeentch focus? The other list posted in here was similar but Slaanesh + Be'Lakor, but with save rerolls and extra Psychic power, how do you think a Lord of Change led force would fare?

I think that the Jink+Shrouded special rule for Nurgle DPs is essential IMO. Without that 2+ cover, DPs become very fragile. The key is to get the 4+ FNP greater reward and just jink all the way up the tabletop and crush people in CC.

You can get the same thing with the Shrouding power from Telepathy, and then you get to re-roll 1s.

Daemon Princes of Tzeentch, are not slouches in CC at all.

Daemon princes of all kinds are not slouches in CC. That stat line is awesome.

Yeah, I lean toward Slaanesh and Tzeentch.

Tzeentch is also a half way decent gun boat since it get's the Flickering Fire ability.

 Tyran wrote:

AutarchRion wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Master Shake wrote:
I got 11th overall with nurgle princes, but was 5th overall before dropping at the end of round 6... that being said....

My list was:

Fateweaver
GUO, Exalted gift, lvl 3

17 pink horrors
13 pink horrors

3 x nurgle prince, wings, armour, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts


I roll powers as following. Starting g with princes I roll on Demonology. If I get a 1 4 or 5, then I keep it and roll again. Should the second roll be a 2 3 or 6, then I swap it for the primaris.

If a prince rolls a combination of 1 4 and 5 on the first two rolls, then the third roll just goes towards demonology too.

If I've swapped out the second roll for the primaris then the third roll is generally on biomancy, seeking iron arm, life leach, or endurance to help keep princes alive. If I'm fighting wraithknights or riptides, I often roll the 3rd power on telepathy to take psychic shriek.

Psychic shriek is exceptionally good with fateweaver since if you roll a 6, 4, and a 1, you can re roll only the 1 and have a shot and instantly killing an unwounded wraithknight.

It's also worth noting that the nurgle princes gain chaos focus nurgle and that template weapon is no joke.

Out of curiosity, do you think this list could be made with a Tzeentch focus? The other list posted in here was similar but Slaanesh + Be'Lakor, but with save rerolls and extra Psychic power, how do you think a Lord of Change led force would fare?

I think that the Jink+Shrouded special rule for Nurgle DPs is essential IMO. Without that 2+ cover, DPs become very fragile. The key is to get the 4+ FNP greater reward and just jink all the way up the tabletop and crush people in CC.

You can get the same thing with the Shrouding power from Telepathy, and then you get to re-roll 1s.

Thing is, what if you don't roll it up? Or fail to cast/get denied? Plus, dice spent on that are dice not spent on summoning/iron arm/endurance etc. Not that tzeentch DPs are bad at all, but the jink/shrouding combo is just awesome and totally given for nurgle.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:


Thing is, what if you don't roll it up? Or fail to cast/get denied? Plus, dice spent on that are dice not spent on summoning/iron arm/endurance etc. Not that tzeentch DPs are bad at all, but the jink/shrouding combo is just awesome and totally given for nurgle.

That's why you have several ones, with 10 rolls on telepathy (3x3 for the DPs and 1 from Fateweaver) you should get a few shrouding (and a few invisibility). Plus a single shrouding will protect all the FMC in range with a re-rolleable 2+ cover save (which is 6 times better than a normal 2+ cover save).

How many of these armies rely on summoning? And how many models beyond the initial list to you need to invest in to be able to compete. I love the idea of a FMC melee list, but don't want to spend a sick amount on extra troops/dogs!

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

AutarchRion wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Master Shake wrote:
I got 11th overall with nurgle princes, but was 5th overall before dropping at the end of round 6... that being said....

My list was:

Fateweaver
GUO, Exalted gift, lvl 3

17 pink horrors
13 pink horrors

3 x nurgle prince, wings, armour, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts


I roll powers as following. Starting g with princes I roll on Demonology. If I get a 1 4 or 5, then I keep it and roll again. Should the second roll be a 2 3 or 6, then I swap it for the primaris.

If a prince rolls a combination of 1 4 and 5 on the first two rolls, then the third roll just goes towards demonology too.

If I've swapped out the second roll for the primaris then the third roll is generally on biomancy, seeking iron arm, life leach, or endurance to help keep princes alive. If I'm fighting wraithknights or riptides, I often roll the 3rd power on telepathy to take psychic shriek.

Psychic shriek is exceptionally good with fateweaver since if you roll a 6, 4, and a 1, you can re roll only the 1 and have a shot and instantly killing an unwounded wraithknight.

It's also worth noting that the nurgle princes gain chaos focus nurgle and that template weapon is no joke.

Out of curiosity, do you think this list could be made with a Tzeentch focus? The other list posted in here was similar but Slaanesh + Be'Lakor, but with save rerolls and extra Psychic power, how do you think a Lord of Change led force would fare?

I think that the Jink+Shrouded special rule for Nurgle DPs is essential IMO. Without that 2+ cover, DPs become very fragile. The key is to get the 4+ FNP greater reward and just jink all the way up the tabletop and crush people in CC.

You can get the same thing with the Shrouding power from Telepathy, and then you get to re-roll 1s.

Thing is, what if you don't roll it up? Or fail to cast/get denied? Plus, dice spent on that are dice not spent on summoning/iron arm/endurance etc. Not that tzeentch DPs are bad at all, but the jink/shrouding combo is just awesome and totally given for nurgle.

That's why I run Be'lakor in my list. He grants the guaranteed shrouding and can fly along next to all the other tzeentch princes who get rerollable 2+ cover saves (it also works great with a csm unit of bikers and screamers). I throw 4 dice at shrouding just to be extra safe and if the opponent has a lot of denying dice I'd be tempted to throw more but they usually want to save them for the flickering fires and iron arms that follow.

The nurgle option is more consistent, yes, but also less flexible. I get to squeeze in other units like maulerfiends, bikers, and screamers and get them excellent protection as well.

 Tyran wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:


Thing is, what if you don't roll it up? Or fail to cast/get denied? Plus, dice spent on that are dice not spent on summoning/iron arm/endurance etc. Not that tzeentch DPs are bad at all, but the jink/shrouding combo is just awesome and totally given for nurgle.

That's why you have several ones, with 10 rolls on telepathy (3x3 for the DPs and 1 from Fateweaver) you should get a few shrouding (and a few invisibility). Plus a single shrouding will protect all the FMC in range with a re-rolleable 2+ cover save (which is 6 times better than a normal 2+ cover save).

But dude man! If you only focus on Telepathy, then you miss out on some of the awesome Biomancy Powers... like IRon Arm. I would rather have jink/shrouded + Iron arm. So deadly. Nurgle DPs just do it for me.... give me chills (of the good variety) I never like to rely on randomly generated powers. Every once in awhile you can, but certainly not for all of your DPs in a Flying Circus. Nurgle are gonna give you the most consistent survivability.

If you play Slaanesh / Tzeentch it's a better choice imo and actually comes in at a pretty cheap price. Plus you can have like 5 pr more actually almost unkillable units it's also cheaper to have Daemon Princes of Tzeentch as you know your getting that rerollable Shrouding or invisibility.

This is a list I've been trying out it's 4 2k, for lower points I usually switch seekers w/ Daemonettes along with switching out one squad of horrors.

Fateweaver

Heralds of Slaanesh x 2 (Level 2)
Steed

Herald of Tzeentch x 2 ( Level 3)
Grimoire , Portaglyph Disc


Troops

11 Pink Horrors
11 Pink Horrors



F. Attack
Seekers x 15
Screamers x 7



H. Support
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch , Level 3 , Greater Gift x 2, 1 Lesser, Wings
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, Level 3, Greater Gift x 2, 1 Lesser , Wings




It's going to have around 22+ Warp Charge, The ability to summon and 5 Base Rolls on Invisibility whoops I mean Telepathy.

With a Small Model count and unit count initially it's really easy to protect with buffs. Also, Screamers benefit from Shrouding as well, they have a 2+ Cover jink Save. Fateweaver can and will blow the crap out of things, now that you can fire off every single Psychic Spell from Tzeentch if you want.

Good Luck killing anything that has Invisibility and Grimoire on it. I think it's actually a statistical impossibility to kill something with a 2++ Rerollable and needing 6s to hit. It's basically impossible to kill something that is 6s to hit, has Feel No Pain, and has a 2++ Rerollable Invunerable.

Each of the Daemon Princes get's 2 Chances to get Feel No Pain as well. So yeah... your just not going to kill that army if they get a Invisibility off on something that has Feel No Pain and a rerollable armour save.

Nurgle allows you to pass up on having to roll invisibility. It also has the advantage of 2+ jink during a potential alpha strike, which other princes lack.

Having to roll till you get invisibility can hamper an army greatly.

Yeah each one has it's advantages and disadvantages, Alpha strike is somethng to worry about. My preference is towards Tzeentch or Slaanesh. I like Tzeentch because you get such a great character w/ Fateweaver , the reroll, the reroll the warp storm.

I prefer Tzeentch / Slaanesh mix, I think it's more well rounded and overall is more a "take all comers".

Tempted to buy belakor now, to try out that tzeentch list. Or a keeper of secrets, because she doesn't seem awful anymore. Currently run guo, 3 nurgle princes for my 1500 giggles list, but these seem fun too.

 Master Shake wrote:
Nurgle allows you to pass up on having to roll invisibility. It also has the advantage of 2+ jink during a potential alpha strike, which other princes lack.

Having to roll till you get invisibility can hamper an army greatly.

I think you mean 'shrouding', which is the 7th ed power that gives 6" radius of shrouded targeting the psyker. Invisibility causes all to hit rolls (ranged and melee) to require a 6+ (and no blasts). Bel'kor knows all the Telepathy powers as standard so doesn't need to roll.

None the less you do raise a good point which is that you resist alphastrikes and you don't have to worry about:
- failing casting shrouded
- bel'kor periling and forgetting his spells
- bel'kor failing to cast shrouding
- bel'kor getting nuked down
- keeping all your dp within 6" of bel'kor

Bel'kor dies pretty fast to both wave serpents and smart missile systems, both of which are twin linked and ignore cover (giving him a 4++ only) which, given enough volume of fire will down him. Flying him up the middle of the board in a 6" bubble of death is not a good idea.

A far better tactic is to circle 3 dp of nurgle over your enemies heads for 5 turns summoning daemonettes onto every objective you need and landing only if it looks like cheesery won't win you the game.

I really prefer the Tzeentch and Slaanesh, I find it more annoying for my opponent when multiple things in the army have 2++ rerollable or you need 6s to hit. 've never had a problem with no getting Shrouding or Invisibility with that many rolls on the chart.

I mean you get The Grimoire, you get access to invisibility plus a like 33% chance he'll have Feel No Pain because of Greater Gifts, GOOD LUCK dealing with that guy flying around summoning daemons all day and destroying units in CC.

With a low count Alpha Strike is pretty easy to castle against. Plus if you don't completely and utterly alpha strike the army, you just stuck a unit with in charge range of the worst things in the game to be in charge range of. Generally having 2 Greater Gifts , and 1 Lesser makes it so they just wreck complete shop, especially taking the staff. I just prefer more versatile lists and the Fateweaver gives me a big advantage on having great and powerful unit plus the access to the Daemon Princes.


If you take Belakor , you have to also take a Great Unclean One to get the Daemon Princes, so your getting a 200 point tax on the Daemon Princes, where as Fateweaver you can still take Heralds.

Great Unclean one is a good unit, but it's not really an amazing utility unit like Fateweaver is.

That's my issue with it. I'm not particularly fond of Great Unclean Ones.

I've never lost a Tzeentch Daemon Prince in a army that has Grimoire and access to Shrouding or Invisibility. It's to much gak to deal with and no one can crack it.

I don't even know what the statistical odds are of killing something that's got invisibility and a grimoire on it. I know I can fly one Daemon Prince though into the middle of my opponents army and they just have to ignore it and if they tar pit it, it's going to just keep on summoning daemons.


I mean when I construct I always construct w/ Back up plans. For example the above list :

I've got Grimoire - this is definitive
I've got 5 Rolls on Telepathy , just starting off, Fateweaver and the Heralds
I've got 6 Rolls on Malefic - So I've got a chance at Cursed Earth for +1, and the Possibility either of the Daemon Princes w/ Roll Reroll all Invulnerables or at least a 4+ w/ Rerolling Ones.
Biomancy- You got two spells on here that give a +3 Toughness, then another that gives Feel No pain.
Telepathy - You have two spells that make them super unkillable, Invisibility, or Shrouding.

Then you have the Daemon Princes

I've got a better than 50% chance to get at least 1 thing that gives me Feel No Pain, either from the Greater list or from Biomancy , I'm not worried about a Daemon Prince w/ a 4+ Jink and then additional Feel No Pain and that's just with rolling twice on Greater and once on biomancy just odds are you'll get something that get's feel no pain, if you get Feel No pain from Greater and then Iron Arm, just tell people to go away.

I just don't need to worry about definitively getting Invisibility or Shrouding because there are other ways that I am able to protect my Daemon Princes and units.

My point is I like to go for Versatility and have options.

No one really answered my question. Maybe it's dumb, but I'm very new to daemons. With Flying Circus lists in 7th - how important is it to make use of summoning?

Extremely

Thanks Hulksmash. And with all this rolling for Iron Arm / Endurance / Shrouding / Invisibility etc... Which units roll on summoning and what do they try to summon? How many dice per turn?

I havent had a chance yet, but I think I would make a nurgle DP with 2 biomancy and 1 daemonology, or vice versa, though I feel getting endurance or iron arm is higher priority than getting something other than primaris for summoning.

Mastershake laid it out pretty well but here is where I'm at:

I'd say it depends on the first Daemonology roll. If I roll a 4 then I roll against on Daemonology looking for a 5 or swapping for the primaris and throwing 1 dice at Telepathy (if Slaanesh) or Biomancy (if Nurgle). If I don't roll a 4 then I just take the primaris or hopefully I rolled a 5. The rest then go to the other trees.

Sacrifice is just so awesomely useful and easy to get off it's hard to swap it for the primaris. Basically you want your FMC's rocking either the primaris or incursion (5). The rest can go to others.

I understand how extremely powerful gaining extra models on the board is (especially as a screen/distraction from your more expensive and powerful units), but Summoning just feels so janky to me. First you have to make a WC3 power, which generally means ~5 dice on one ability and a pretty decent chance to peril (though, to be fair, that means if it goes off they generally can't deny). Then you have to deep strike, and since most things don't bring icons, there's always the chance they'll just pop off the table or die altogether.

I mean, yes, suddenly having a free squad is worth the risk, but I feel that in general, having more reliable powers on other tables is good as well. Of course, if you're going the lists from Nova which only have ~30 models on the board to start, you kind of need more bodies just so you don't die immediately.

And let's be real. You're generally looking at your 5 FMC's costing in the range of 1400pts before anything other than wings and pyshic powers. So There isn't a lot of room for models after that.

 Hulksmash wrote:
And let's be real. You're generally looking at your 5 FMC's costing in the range of 1400pts before anything other than wings and pyshic powers. So There isn't a lot of room for models after that.

Oh yeah, I totally understand that much at least. But likely after the first turn (as long as all the Summonings went off and nothing catastrophic happened), I'd likely switch most of my focus onto other powers.

Also, let's not forget that a culexus assassin in a flyer can roll up and shut down the shrouding. They can not shut down. The nurgle princes shrouding.

Hi, I'm a masochist.

Can I make FMC's work with a Khorne only list?

Bloodthirster
Herald on Juggernaught
Dogs
Bloodletters
Bloodletters
Khorne Prince with Wings
Khorne Prince with Wings
Belakor

Obviously, in this environment, most of the time the Demon Princes just hop and not fly.

Am I just wasting my time?

Any list can work. It might not win too much, but it'll work.

 whitedragon wrote:
Hi, I'm a masochist.

Can I make FMC's work with a Khorne only list?

Bloodthirster
Herald on Juggernaught
Dogs
Bloodletters
Bloodletters
Khorne Prince with Wings
Khorne Prince with Wings
Belakor

Obviously, in this environment, most of the time the Demon Princes just hop and not fly.

Am I just wasting my time?

I would recommend flipping a stool upside down and sitting on one of the pegs while you play this list. It will complete experience.

You will have a very difficult time with this list, mainly because the DPs cannot take any psychic powers.

Actually it works pretty well I know someone here who has a Belakor Khorne List. He just flies Belakor up with giving shrouding to the Bloodthirster and Daemon Princes, then goes to town.

I think he uses a crapload of Dogs and just casts invisibility on them if he can.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually it works pretty well I know someone here who has a Belakor Khorne List.

He just flies Belakor up with giving shrouding to the Bloodthirster and Daemon Princes, then goes to town.

Hollismason wrote:Actually it works pretty well I know someone here who has a Belakor Khorne List. He just flies Belakor up with giving shrouding to the Bloodthirster and Daemon Princes, then goes to town.

I think he uses a crapload of Dogs and just casts invisibility on them if he can.

I have been messing around with something similar. Scouting cav/beasts+grimoire+Be'Lakor w/ shrouding/invisibility is actually very good. Dogs tend to work the best but crushers+karnatak can work. One of the supplemental units I use with this is a unit of letters in a bastion w/ tunnel and quadd gun to give me a modicum of AA/anti skimmer and a quick response mid field unit. There are some additional options if you play with forgeworld units, a group of blood slaughters with the grimoire and impalers can be pretty boss.

The blood thirsters are pretty boss if well supported and/or you get the right gifts. I am not impressed by the khorne princes though as they tend to be overall worse in melee than a balesword nurgle prince or mace Tz prince and significantly less survivable than either.

Khorne has some pretty sad issues to deal with atm.....

Bloodletters are pretty bad atm, a Bloodreaper has better weapon options than Skulltaker (Who is awful) and a Skullcrusher champion is actually cheaper + Better with an Axe of Khorne than Skulltaker on his mount.....

Princes are pretty much in the same boat. There is no conceivable, reliable way to get them in CC without the aid of a Psyker. Primarily Invisibility. There are a lot of people in our local area saying Khorne needs love on multiple levels. Fact if they're simply out classed in terms of flexibility compared to other Princes.

At least Khorne Hounds are still arguably the best Fast Attack Choice PFP compared to the others. I just wish a little more balancing went into the writing of the Codex. Right now I look at the last edition and sigh with depression on how bad things transferred over to 6th Edition Codex.

 Master Shake wrote:
Any list can work. It might not win too much, but it'll work.

Out of curiosity, with your list, do you Deep Strike the GUO or do you just try to walk it across the field? Footslogging him makes sense from the point of having more Warp Dice on the table turn 1 and powers to throw out, but the time it takes to get him across the board is pretty long and his inability to force people to get charged if they don't want to seem pretty difficult to deal with.

I mean, he's still a T7 W6 with Shrouding and Biomancy, but he's not going to be doing much for his points other than drawing fire and casting things.

So many things in this thread bother me...

The rules specifically say a unit cannot cast the same spell more than once, I know there is a rules debate thread for that but I just wanted to say just how assinine it is that you assume differently, when 2 of like 1000 tournaments, oh, and "your buddies" play it that way. These arent house rules, it fething says it directly.

Secondly, nurgle DP are crap, the sword is good, but your cver save is basically worthless with the amount of things that remove it now.

Slaanesh > Tzeentch, but at least tzeench can work well.

How many people are goingto be taking a culexus assassin? The answer is probably 1 in 20 or even less, this model is NO reason to alter your list in ANY way.

Someone asked how important summoning was for FMC, hulksmash's answer was shocking to me, you do not need summoning at ALL, if you feel like it use it but is it necessary? HELL NO!!! I have on squad of 11 horrors for summoning in my list, and if they get the invul spell they wont be summoning anything.

/rant

 whitedragon wrote:
Hi, I'm a masochist.

Can I make FMC's work with a Khorne only list?

Bloodthirster
Herald on Juggernaught
Dogs
Bloodletters
Bloodletters
Khorne Prince with Wings
Khorne Prince with Wings
Belakor

Obviously, in this environment, most of the time the Demon Princes just hop and not fly.

Am I just wasting my time?

Be'lakor is an HQ so that list is illegal ash you are using 3 HQ slots

chadbrochill17 wrote:
So many things in this thread bother me...

The rules specifically say a unit cannot cast the same spell more than once, I know there is a rules debate thread for that but I just wanted to say just how assinine it is that you assume differently, when 2 of like 1000 tournaments, oh, and "your buddies" play it that way. These arent house rules, it fething says it directly.

Secondly, nurgle DP are crap, the sword is good, but your cver save is basically worthless with the amount of things that remove it now.

Slaanesh > Tzeentch, but at least tzeench can work well.

How many people are goingto be taking a culexus assassin? The answer is probably 1 in 20 or even less, this model is NO reason to alter your list in ANY way.

Someone asked how important summoning was for FMC, hulksmash's answer was shocking to me, you do not need summoning at ALL, if you feel like it use it but is it necessary? HELL NO!!! I have on squad of 11 horrors for summoning in my list, and if they get the invul spell they wont be summoning anything.

/rant

I cant agree with your statement on the Princes dedication, simply because I know the pain of not getting Iron Arm on my Slaaneshi Princes. It CRIPPLES you. Outright CRIPPLES. You effectively spend 350 points on Str 6 Shooting.

That being said Ive only run into 2 opponents so far that have managed to kill my 3 princes of Nurgle before they could Table them fully. One of those players was a Tau player (Who still lost turn 5) and the other was Eldar (Who still lost due to objectives) Nurgle deals with anything MC. This nullifies Waithknights and Riptides outright. If they are trying to get to you they are trying to focus on 1 Prince per turn for Removing cover. If you are positioning and using cover (That is, if you are playing on a board with ACTUAL COVER or LOS blocking terrain, as you should be) You will be able to hide princes VERY well behind said LOS and can effectively make turn 3 charges.

chadbrochill17 wrote:
So many things in this thread bother me...

The rules specifically say a unit cannot cast the same spell more than once, I know there is a rules debate thread for that but I just wanted to say just how assinine it is that you assume differently, when 2 of like 1000 tournaments, oh, and "your buddies" play it that way. These arent house rules, it fething says it directly.

Secondly, nurgle DP are crap, the sword is good, but your cver save is basically worthless with the amount of things that remove it now.

Slaanesh > Tzeentch, but at least tzeench can work well.

How many people are goingto be taking a culexus assassin? The answer is probably 1 in 20 or even less, this model is NO reason to alter your list in ANY way.

Someone asked how important summoning was for FMC, hulksmash's answer was shocking to me, you do not need summoning at ALL, if you feel like it use it but is it necessary? HELL NO!!! I have on squad of 11 horrors for summoning in my list, and if they get the invul spell they wont be summoning anything.

/rant

I don't think you actually understand the argument presented, but you can take it up in YMDC.


Anyway here's how I choose my psychic powers and the semi thought process behind how I choose my gak as someone was wondering and why.


Okay since I like to be verbose let's look at the list we have before us so that you can get a idea of my thought process. First I usually roll my gifts before my psychic powers along with the warlord trait, yes you can actually roll this off I guess, but I've never not once had someone complain.


First let's look at what the base line save for my Daemon Princes are

5++ , 4+ Jink Cover , Reroll 1, that improves the 5+ slightly it's a definite increase but not huge. You'll notice I don't take Warp Forged Armour, there's a reason , I can roll it and it affects Gravs.

1 - +1 Wound , It will not die - Defensive
2 - FNP - Defensive
3 - Reroll Invuln - Defensive
4 - Hellfire - Offensive
5 - Armour/ Fleshbane - Offensive
6 - Unbreakable - Defensive

So of the 4 Choices , more than half give a defensive ability, yes you can roll two Offensives, but if you roll Armour/Flesh that's a good thing. Hellfires also pretty decent, anyway my decision is based on if I get two Defensives. Also , if you get Hellfire , you can go for the Greater Aether for the +1 ST. If you get both just stick with them and go Biomancy for more survivability.

Fateweaver First to see if I get Endurance, Invisibility or Forewarning or two Defensive Spells

Then I roll for my Malefic w/ my Tzeentch

Then I roll for my Telepathy on Heralds of Slaanesh

Then I roll for my Pink Horrors

And Finally if I don't have any Shrouding or Invisibility, or at least 3 more buff defensive spells, I start rolling on Telepathy with the Princes hoping to get Invisibility or Shrouding.

My order for Summoning always goes

Cursed Earth
Sacrifice
Defensive
Summons
Hold 8 or more over till the end and the last thing I cast is usually Invisibility so that they have to sit on their dispel dice if they have them if they want to try and stop it. So I still get most of my stuff off. I prefer Sacrifice over Summoning on the first turn as it super charges my Warp and gives me the option to roll again on Malefic or pick a Herald of Slaanesh in a Chariot if I need it which will be a 2nd turn charge.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GoliothOnline wrote:

chadbrochill17 wrote:
So many things in this thread bother me...

The rules specifically say a unit cannot cast the same spell more than once, I know there is a rules debate thread for that but I just wanted to say just how assinine it is that you assume differently, when 2 of like 1000 tournaments, oh, and "your buddies" play it that way. These arent house rules, it fething says it directly.

Secondly, nurgle DP are crap, the sword is good, but your cver save is basically worthless with the amount of things that remove it now.

Slaanesh > Tzeentch, but at least tzeench can work well.

How many people are goingto be taking a culexus assassin? The answer is probably 1 in 20 or even less, this model is NO reason to alter your list in ANY way.

Someone asked how important summoning was for FMC, hulksmash's answer was shocking to me, you do not need summoning at ALL, if you feel like it use it but is it necessary? HELL NO!!! I have on squad of 11 horrors for summoning in my list, and if they get the invul spell they wont be summoning anything.

/rant

I cant agree with your statement on the Princes dedication, simply because I know the pain of not getting Iron Arm on my Slaaneshi Princes. It CRIPPLES you. Outright CRIPPLES. You effectively spend 350 points on Str 6 Shooting.

That being said Ive only run into 2 opponents so far that have managed to kill my 3 princes of Nurgle before they could Table them fully. One of those players was a Tau player (Who still lost turn 5) and the other was Eldar (Who still lost due to objectives) Nurgle deals with anything MC. This nullifies Waithknights and Riptides outright. If they are trying to get to you they are trying to focus on 1 Prince per turn for Removing cover. If you are positioning and using cover (That is, if you are playing on a board with ACTUAL COVER or LOS blocking terrain, as you should be) You will be able to hide princes VERY well behind said LOS and can effectively make turn 3 charges.

I see you on the Nurgle , but the Staff of Change pretty much does the same thing, most of those things get their save against a Daemon Prince of Nurgle anyway.

I just prefer Tzeentch for that reroll 1, and the 2+ cover reroll, because it's soooo good. Sure nurgle get's it baseline.

Probably Preference.

Dont forget that the staff of change doesnt have ID, The Balesword does And with ID comes the negation of any and all FNP rolls things like Riptides can get It helps a lot!

Yeah like I said I think one is way more offensive by just a little bit , Nurgle ,but Tzeentch can be more defensive.
Plus, Fateweaver , who's arguably one of the best characters in the game satisfies that requirement. I dunno, I'd just rather have Fateweaver than Belakor. I always go more defensive because their already super offensive. That and Riptides don't bother me, I like to Terrify them off the board.

I've honestly never had a problem with my Daemon Princes dying, my problem is Mass Flyers 3+ and Alpha Strike Drop Pod.

Even Imperial Leaf-blower isn't that difficult to deal with. I've played it 3 times, it won all 3 , 2 wipes, 1 super close against my friend who is a bastard and brings a billion NightScythes. They didn't even really do anything they were just really annoying.

I am not sure what the issue is here:

1) Nurgle DPs are the most consistently productive DP. All others rely on some combination of Grimiore/Rewards/Powers. Yes, you can be pretty sure to get some, but you are still taking chances.

2) If you like a sore butt, then you can run a khorne DP list, otherwise, "HELL NO!" (to borrow the verbiage from above) Khorne DPs are a sure fire way to lose. If it makes you feel good to let your oopenent win, then all the power to you. Otherwise, don't run Khorne DPs.

/rant in answer to the rant

Here are the advantages and disadvantages or at least what I consider the disadvantages.

Tzeentch
Advantages
1. Can be taken as H. Support w/ Purchase of Fateweaver
2. Get's ST8 for 10 points
3. Can straight up roll the two Greater Gifts, doesn't have to choose the Base weapon like the others as that +2 ST is pretty kicking and really it's got a AP2. This is huge because that's 2 rolls and you don't have to give one up.
4. Can have a 2+ rerollable save in multiple ways in addition to gaining feel no pain.
5. Gets a Chaos Primaris that gives it some shooting so it can actually be viable versus flyers
Disadvantages
1. Little bit more expensive
2. Doesn't get Shrouding Automatically, has to roll for it

Nurgle :
1. Get's Shrouding Automatically
2. Gets the Bale Sword which makes it a instant death dealer.
Disadvantages
1. Has to use a roll on the Greater gift
2. Cannot get a rerollable
3. Needs to get Iron Arm or it's ST6, but it has poison, so it's still a 4+ which is good. There's some situations where even up it's kind of like Meh.
4. Doesn't have any real options against other flying things.

Slaanesh
1. Get's Rending which is extra damage vs vehicles
2. Has some decent anti flying with LASH, ST6 or more if it get's Iron Arm.
Disadvantages
1. Mark doesn't really give it anything to special
2. Really needs Iron arm to work
3. Not as survivable

That's my ranking. I take Slaanesh over Nurgle all the time cause its a themed thing for me. I don't like taking troops and one off marked vehicles it doesn't make sense to me to have a Khorne Hounds in a rmy full of Tzeentch or Slaanesh.


It's just pretty much almost impossible to kill a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch that has Shrouding and Invisibility on it or any other buff. It's to much to deal with.

Some one can come up with the odds of what it'd take to kill the following and let's say it doesn't get a Cover Save.

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w/ Feel No Pain and has Invisible.

I dont think those benefits vs cons really add up properly since you're kinda biased towards Tzeentch already

Watch,

Nurgle :
1. Get's Shrouding Automatically
2. Gets the Bale Sword for instant Death
3. Doesnt have to fly and can get into CC while Jinking and still maintaining a 12" movement
4. Have a 2+ Cover Save and can jink when still on the ground
5. AP2 from being a MC means whatever target you GET into CC with better have an invuln save or expect horrendous deaths since you have ID on your Balesword.
6. Nurgle Princes dont need Biomancy. They roll Telepathy like all other princes and shoot for Invisibility. If they get it, they guarantee CC success and become melee mongering death machines


Disadvantages
1. Ignoring Cover - but still easily manageable if you play properly with LOS blocking Terrain
2. Doesnt get Rerollable 1s. Thats fine.

Honestly I cant think of anything else that I would consider a downside to being Of Nurgle. You're killing anything and everything that isnt EW. You flat out ignore models with FNP. Negating that alone guarantees Riptides and things like Wraithknights and the likes die outright. Even the Grey Knight Dread Knights have to stay away from Nurgle Princes. But a Tzeentch Prince might just die from one because of 1 lucky Knight attack landing. Difference in it being that you need to push wound with a Tzeentch Prince, where a Nurgle Prince only needs to land a single wound for that Dreadknight, Swarm Lord, Wraithknight, Carnifex Brood to disappear.

Hollismason wrote:
Some one can come up with the odds of what it'd take to kill the following and let's say it doesn't get a Cover Save.

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w/ Feel No Pain and has Invisible.

I think it would be ~6% chance per shot to wound (assumed serpent shield shots).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D1XfuhXXioKlY9s3ITJY_qcSwmdIAbu7lHo3Mb5ya2Q/edit?usp=sharing

Feel No Pain is actually a 4+.


Yeah, I agree Nurgle is a better CC and beast, but I prefer Tzeentch , I can take Fateweaver and there's no utility unit like him for Nurgle.

You gotta take the GUO and I'm not a huge fan of that guy.

Very slow, pretty much needs to deepstrike.

Just not a fan.

Have you ever tried dropping him down with double Greaters and a Plague Flail? It's pretty scary to zone with.

Either way, I respect your opinions and do agree with your Tzeentch methods

I actually like the GUO these days. He makes a pretty decent platform to manifest malefic powers off of. With cursed earth he and 1-2 greater gifts he is very hard to kill too. Even possession is nice as when the GUO is almost dead you can get a fresh one and get a free movement.

He is definitely super slow though. You pick an important objective and you move him to it through the entire game. Preferably that was the objective the opponent happened to leave their soft squishy bit on and the tough units between the GUO and soft bits.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
I dont think those benefits vs cons really add up properly since you're kinda biased towards Tzeentch already

Watch,

Nurgle :
1. Get's Shrouding Automatically
2. Gets the Bale Sword for instant Death
3. Doesnt have to fly and can get into CC while Jinking and still maintaining a 12" movement
4. Have a 2+ Cover Save and can jink when still on the ground
5. AP2 from being a MC means whatever target you GET into CC with better have an invuln save or expect horrendous deaths since you have ID on your Balesword.
6. Nurgle Princes dont need Biomancy. They roll Telepathy like all other princes and shoot for Invisibility. If they get it, they guarantee CC success and become melee mongering death machines


Disadvantages
1. Ignoring Cover - but still easily manageable if you play properly with LOS blocking Terrain
2. Doesnt get Rerollable 1s. Thats fine.

Honestly I cant think of anything else that I would consider a downside to being Of Nurgle. You're killing anything and everything that isnt EW. You flat out ignore models with FNP. Negating that alone guarantees Riptides and things like Wraithknights and the likes die outright. Even the Grey Knight Dread Knights have to stay away from Nurgle Princes. But a Tzeentch Prince might just die from one because of 1 lucky Knight attack landing. Difference in it being that you need to push wound with a Tzeentch Prince, where a Nurgle Prince only needs to land a single wound for that Dreadknight, Swarm Lord, Wraithknight, Carnifex Brood to disappear.

I don't fly with the Tzeentch ones either, I leave them jumping around 12" at a time and jinking with the shrouding from be'lakor so that shouldn't be an advantage of nurgle over tzeentch if they both do the same thing. If you look at number 4, then tzeentch actually has the advantage because they get a rerollable 2+ instead of just a 2+. Nurgle will have ID against more targets than the tzeentch ones, but str 8 does ID most characters at least but yeah the advantage would be nurgle there.

Another huge advantage to me with tzeentch was using flickering fires on my lords of change and fateweaver to shoot down fliers. They can make a mess of light fliers by getting to skyfire all those strength 5 shots and I've found fliers hard to take out for both CSM and Daemons so it removed a glaring weakness in a lot of my lists.

The other advantage is that while the Nurgle Princes are more self sufficient, they also allow for less versatility. Running the Tzeentch setup where you're casting shrouding lets you bring a lot of other support units like screamers that can also enjoy a 2+ jink. I run CSM with Daemon allies, so I also brought a lot of maulerfiends which enjoyed a 2+ as well (placed behind the princes, shrouding, and stealth for first turn. they were in combat by the 2nd turn). My next match I'm going to run a chaos lord on a bike with the axe of blinding fury in a unit of other bikers who will also enjoy the 2+ jink.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
I dont think those benefits vs cons really add up properly since you're kinda biased towards Tzeentch already

Watch,

Nurgle :
1. Get's Shrouding Automatically
2. Gets the Bale Sword for instant Death
3. Doesnt have to fly and can get into CC while Jinking and still maintaining a 12" movement
4. Have a 2+ Cover Save and can jink when still on the ground
5. AP2 from being a MC means whatever target you GET into CC with better have an invuln save or expect horrendous deaths since you have ID on your Balesword.
6. Nurgle Princes dont need Biomancy. They roll Telepathy like all other princes and shoot for Invisibility. If they get it, they guarantee CC success and become melee mongering death machines


Disadvantages
1. Ignoring Cover - but still easily manageable if you play properly with LOS blocking Terrain
2. Doesnt get Rerollable 1s. Thats fine.

Honestly I cant think of anything else that I would consider a downside to being Of Nurgle. You're killing anything and everything that isnt EW. You flat out ignore models with FNP. Negating that alone guarantees Riptides and things like Wraithknights and the likes die outright. Even the Grey Knight Dread Knights have to stay away from Nurgle Princes. But a Tzeentch Prince might just die from one because of 1 lucky Knight attack landing. Difference in it being that you need to push wound with a Tzeentch Prince, where a Nurgle Prince only needs to land a single wound for that Dreadknight, Swarm Lord, Wraithknight, Carnifex Brood to disappear.

I don't fly with the Tzeentch ones either, I leave them jumping around 12" at a time and jinking with the shrouding from be'lakor so that shouldn't be an advantage of nurgle over tzeentch if they both do the same thing. If you look at number 4, then tzeentch actually has the advantage because they get a rerollable 2+ instead of just a 2+. Nurgle will have ID against more targets than the tzeentch ones, but str 8 does ID most characters at least but yeah the advantage would be nurgle there.

Another huge advantage to me with tzeentch was using flickering fires on my lords of change and fateweaver to shoot down fliers. They can make a mess of light fliers by getting to skyfire all those strength 5 shots and I've found fliers hard to take out for both CSM and Daemons so it removed a glaring weakness in a lot of my lists.

The other advantage is that while the Nurgle Princes are more self sufficient, they also allow for less versatility. Running the Tzeentch setup where you're casting shrouding lets you bring a lot of other support units like screamers that can also enjoy a 2+ jink. I run CSM with Daemon allies, so I also brought a lot of maulerfiends which enjoyed a 2+ as well (placed behind the princes, shrouding, and stealth for first turn. they were in combat by the 2nd turn). My next match I'm going to run a chaos lord on a bike with the axe of blinding fury in a unit of other bikers who will also enjoy the 2+ jink.

If you have Be'lakor (or indeed any Tzeentch DP) cast Shrouding, then it forces all of them to ball up in 6" around that guy. While not bad, Nurgle doesn't have to worry about anything like that at all, each Prince can go in whatever direction he wants, which is not only more tactical but also necessary against things like Ignores Cover blast templates (hello Tau).

for Khorne, I know you want DPs but also why not take some a Skull Cannon?

Str 8 Large Blast is decent enough...I know its Ap5 but not everyone will make their saves.

Once I finish my mono-nurgle list I am definitely making mono-khorne....maybe by then we'll have a new codex...

 Master Shake wrote:
I got 11th overall with nurgle princes, but was 5th overall before dropping at the end of round 6... that being said....

My list was:

Fateweaver
GUO, Exalted gift, lvl 3

17 pink horrors
13 pink horrors

3 x nurgle prince, wings, armour, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts


I roll powers as following. Starting g with princes I roll on Demonology. If I get a 1 4 or 5, then I keep it and roll again. Should the second roll be a 2 3 or 6, then I swap it for the primaris.

If a prince rolls a combination of 1 4 and 5 on the first two rolls, then the third roll just goes towards demonology too.

If I've swapped out the second roll for the primaris then the third roll is generally on biomancy, seeking iron arm, life leach, or endurance to help keep princes alive. If I'm fighting wraithknights or riptides, I often roll the 3rd power on telepathy to take psychic shriek.

Psychic shriek is exceptionally good with fateweaver since if you roll a 6, 4, and a 1, you can re roll only the 1 and have a shot and instantly killing an unwounded wraithknight.

It's also worth noting that the nurgle princes gain chaos focus nurgle and that template weapon is no joke.

Apologies, I went back and re-read this. This last sentence is untrue. Chaos Focus is a bonus from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and does not exist in Chaos Daemons nor the FAQ as far as I can tell. If you want the Plague Primaris, you need to roll on the table and swap.

Yeah, no. Exact wording from the rulebook:

If a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God (see Codex: CSM or Codex: Daemons) that model automatically knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to the their parent deity, in addition to any other powers it knows.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Yeah, no. Exact wording from the rulebook:

If a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God (see Codex: CSM or Codex: Daemons) that model automatically knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to the their parent deity, in addition to any other powers it knows.

What page is that on? I'm alright being wrong, but I can't find that in the BRB or C: Daemons.

Edit: nevermind I'm dumb. Found it 3 seconds after posting.

No worries

I've been following this thread avidly, as I'm only just getting around to updating my old flying circus.

I've written up a list with Be'lakor, Fateweaver and three tzeentch princes, one with a grimoire. With the re-roll from being a deamon of tzeentch, guaranteed access to invisibility/shrouding and the grimoire, do you think it is necessary to take greater rewards on the princes to make them more survivable?

If you can score the feel no pain reward, it is so incredibly helpful. Boosts their survavability incredibly.

 AutarchRion wrote:
If you can score the feel no pain reward, it is so incredibly helpful. Boosts their survavability incredibly.

20/40 points per DP is a lot to spend for a one sixth/one third chance at getting the FNP. Elsewise, I could end up with a 3+ save that I already paid for, a couple of offensive powers, or a pretty sword. Could the 120 points not be better spent elsewhere?

Admittedly, 4+ FNP would be sweet.

I run my Tzeentch DP's completely naked. Just wings and level 3. I run my Slaanesh ones with just wings, level 3, and one greater for a whip.

I'd rather have the models that that 60 points per DP gets me. As it is I'm normally spending 1250 even at that rate on Slaanesh with DP's, KoS, and another FMC.

As for Fateweaver everyone understands that a CAD doesn't have to be your primary detachment anymore right? So you can pay 25pts to avoid warpstorm altogether (assuming you're allowed Come the Apoc. Allies).

 Hulksmash wrote:
I run my Tzeentch DP's completely naked. Just wings and level 3. I run my Slaanesh ones with just wings, level 3, and one greater for a whip.

I'd rather have the models that that 60 points per DP gets me. As it is I'm normally spending 1250 even at that rate on Slaanesh with DP's, KoS, and another FMC.

As for Fateweaver everyone understands that a CAD doesn't have to be your primary detachment anymore right? So you can pay 25pts to avoid warpstorm altogether (assuming you're allowed Come the Apoc. Allies).

What would be your Primary Detachment then? The Allied Detachment specifically says it cannot be a Primary Detachment, so I assume you're talking about a formation or something of the like.

Edit: or another CAD, I suppose, but that starts getting expensive.

With CtA you could take a single inquisitor. It's not an allied detachment. Just an inquisitorial detachment. And the only requirement for that detachment is 1 HQ.

Ah, of course. A somewhat silly list, and he probably won't contribute too much if you leave him base, but I suppose it's somewhat worthwhile to ignore Warp Storm.

25pts to ignore it is nice. Alternatively you could always just bump him to level 1, hope to roll a 6 on Daemonology and otherwise just summon stuff.

Eh that is true but I don't build my lists around Chicanery.

Not saying its bad, just not something I'd do. Same reason I don't play gods that hate each other in the same army.

I like the idea of a "Sorceror" who think's he's summoned minions and keeps doing so. The very idea entertains me. Since they'll eat him when they finish with whatever they are their to destroy

I really miss Daemonic Attack rules :(

Requizen wrote:


If you have Be'lakor (or indeed any Tzeentch DP) cast Shrouding, then it forces all of them to ball up in 6" around that guy. While not bad, Nurgle doesn't have to worry about anything like that at all, each Prince can go in whatever direction he wants, which is not only more tactical but also necessary against things like Ignores Cover blast templates (hello Tau).

Don't forget that it's a 6" radius around the base though and you only need to knick the edges for the first turn. The first turn I basically move my formation straight forward, but counting from the outside edges of the far princes there is actually about a 20" span across the table for your 3 front units. Blasts are not big enough to hit multiple units like this, nor are there problems reaching either end of the board in the second turn when you don't have to stay within 6" anymore. The second turn the princes on the edges can separate as they please and reliably get into combat or reach a corner if need be.

Yeah I also don't like the possibility of getting hit with something that ignores cover so I like the added defense that the Tzeentch can bring but that's me.

Wyvern Batteries surprisingly enough can actually kill them.


Also, I've went with a cheaper no psyker Prince to fill that last slot and it worked fine because the other 2 had buff spells.

Crystal-Maze wrote:
20/40 points per DP is a lot to spend for a one sixth/one third chance at getting the FNP. Elsewise, I could end up with a 3+ save that I already paid for, a couple of offensive powers, or a pretty sword. Could the 120 points not be better spent elsewhere?

No .

 Hulksmash wrote:
With CtA you could take a single inquisitor. It's not an allied detachment. Just an inquisitorial detachment. And the only requirement for that detachment is 1 HQ.

That thought never even crossed my mind. I tip my hat to you. Now I'm considering eliminating fateweaver from my list altogether and replacing him with another prince...

Why would you eliminate the warpstorm? I have found that it helps more than harms.

 Tyran wrote:
Why would you eliminate the warpstorm? I have found that it helps more than harms.

It can give major boons to your army, but all of the decent potential outcomes are mirrored on the table by terrible ones. Sure, Fateweaver grents re-rolls, but its still an element of chance that some players prefer to eliminate. It just means that the player dictates more of what happens in the game, rather than letting the dice decide.

Fateweaver is very very good even without warp storm manipulation. He's simply essential in a flying mc list IMO.

I think people are looking at the Greater Rewards the Wrong way. It's not that you are getting a 1/6th chance to get Feel No Pain (it's actually higher w/ 2 rolls)

It's that when you add in rolling on Biomancy your odds to get Feel No Pain increase to almost a 80%.

What?

You have 2 rolls on a D6 chart to get feel no pain then if you choose Biomancy you have 3 more rolls. Each of those charts has something that gives you feel no pain, a 1/6 chance actually, so you roll 5 times, that makes it a 5/6ths chance to get one of those, actually higher as you have to count rerolls.

Statistically one of those rolls is going to grant you some way to get feel no pain either the Greater Gift or the Rolling on Biomancy and it's going to be a greater odds of 5 rolls total so around a 80% or more if you roll all on biomancy.

It's of course different than the Gift Feel No pain as you have to cast it, but it's still feel no pain.



It's why you don't roll your Chaos Daemon Princes rolls first, because you want to hopefully grab Invisibility on something else, then be able to go for Biomancy or Malefic.

It's more options

Lets say a Prince get's Feel No Pain and +1 Wound and it will not die

Then you have some choices because that guy is pretty buff already.

Don't roll his psychic powers till last, because if you get 2 or more other defense buffs, Invisibility or Shrouding, he can go straight Biomancy, hoping to get Feel No Pain to cast on another Daemon Prince. It's statistically almost impossible to kill a Daemon Prince w/ a 2++ reroll and a 4+ Feel No Pain.and it is impossible if he get's Invisibility on him some how. Let's say you have a weapon that wounds on a 2+, ignores cover. Your still going to have to shoot him like 60 + times to cause 1 wound.

Then you add in you have more than one of them and it just becomes a game of , do nothing and my Daemon princes fly around killing you and summoning more Daemons.

Crystal-Maze wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Why would you eliminate the warpstorm? I have found that it helps more than harms.

It can give major boons to your army, but all of the decent potential outcomes are mirrored on the table by terrible ones. Sure, Fateweaver grents re-rolls, but its still an element of chance that some players prefer to eliminate. It just means that the player dictates more of what happens in the game, rather than letting the dice decide.

I don't view it as a problem. The chance that something bad happens (2/3/4 result) has the same percent chance that nothing happens (7 result) or something good happens (10/11/12 result). And 2 and 3 can be mitigated by a further dice roll. Damage results have a 11.1% (Tzeentch's Fire/Khorne's Wrath) or 13.8% (Glorious Rot/Dark Prince) chance to do damage. And depending on what's in your list, that can help you more than harm you. In a mono-Daemon list, it has a much higher chance of being good than being bad. In a dual-daemon list, it about evens out, but even if a bad one is rolled only part of your army has a chance to be affected.

So, in fact, if you run a mostly mono-Daemon list, there's a higher percent chance that the Warp Storm table is more profitable for you than not. It's still chance, of course, but on the whole I think it's a perfectly fine chance. I mean, if you already are planning on allies and can make someone your Warlord/Primary Detachment, sure go for it. But to me it doesn't seem to be a necessity to work around it by any means.

That and you have the chance to roll the ability as a warlord trait to reroll it, and Fateweaver so its like welp.

I've never had it be anything but a boon.

Plus now with Cursed Earth, you can basically have a close to 3++ army if you roll the right boon on the chart and being in range of Cursed Earth it becomes a good thing.

That result is especially great when you have Tzeentch and your rerolling 1s.

Just starting up Daemons, running 3-4 FMC in my new proto-list.
This thread has been an excellent help for me regarding which MCs/FMCs are good for what and most/least useful, what else to bring with them, and especially regarding which psyker powers are most/least beneficial.

I've got questions regarding the rewards though. I'm getting that for most DPs the general consensus is buying 2x Greater rewards for survivability, and if you're fielding Nurgle DPs and the opponent has multiple high wound models or MCs of their own, swap a Greater for the Balesword.

But which Greater do you swap? Is the Balesword > or < than Armourbane/Fleshbane?
Which MCs to purchase Lesser Rewards for?
Which ones do you want Exalted rewards on, and more specifically where do you put which Hellforged artifacts?

Pardon my ignorance and thanks for your time!

Hollismason wrote:
I think people are looking at the Greater Rewards the Wrong way. It's not that you are getting a 1/6th chance to get Feel No Pain (it's actually higher w/ 2 rolls)

It's that when you add in rolling on Biomancy your odds to get Feel No Pain increase to almost a 80%.

What?

You have 2 rolls on a D6 chart to get feel no pain then if you choose Biomancy you have 3 more rolls. Each of those charts has something that gives you feel no pain, a 1/6 chance actually, so you roll 5 times, that makes it a 5/6ths chance to get one of those, actually higher as you have to count rerolls.

Statistically one of those rolls is going to grant you some way to get feel no pain either the Greater Gift or the Rolling on Biomancy and it's going to be a greater odds of 5 rolls total so around a 80% or more if you roll all on biomancy.

It's of course different than the Gift Feel No pain as you have to cast it, but it's still feel no pain.

That's not how the odds work at all. You don't just add the fractions together to get the combined odds. If you have 5 rolls each with a 1/6 chance to get what you'd like and can reroll duplicate results it comes to about 2/3 chance of getting it. That takes into account rerolls as well by doing [1-(5/6)(4/5)(5/6)(4/5)(3/4)]

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Just starting up Daemons, running 3-4 FMC in my new proto-list.
This thread has been an excellent help for me regarding which MCs/FMCs are good for what and most/least useful, what else to bring with them, and especially regarding which psyker powers are most/least beneficial.

I've got questions regarding the rewards though. I'm getting that for most DPs the general consensus is buying 2x Greater rewards for survivability, and if you're fielding Nurgle DPs and the opponent has multiple high wound models or MCs of their own, swap a Greater for the Balesword.

But which Greater do you swap? Is the Balesword > or < than Armourbane/Fleshbane?
Which MCs to purchase Lesser Rewards for?
Which ones do you want Exalted rewards on, and more specifically where do you put which Hellforged artifacts?

Pardon my ignorance and thanks for your time!

There is no general rule, it just comes down to how your list is constructed (and in the case of swapping rewards it depends on what you rolled, and what army you are facing like the balesword is no worth swapping for against Imperial Knights)

The best I can say is I usually take the exalted reward on the Greater Daemon because they are inherently tougher so can better afford missing a greater gift. And lesser gifts are pretty much only ever if you have spare point. I've written list where neither was the case though. It just comes down to what you army consists of.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I think people are looking at the Greater Rewards the Wrong way. It's not that you are getting a 1/6th chance to get Feel No Pain (it's actually higher w/ 2 rolls)

It's that when you add in rolling on Biomancy your odds to get Feel No Pain increase to almost a 80%.

What?

You have 2 rolls on a D6 chart to get feel no pain then if you choose Biomancy you have 3 more rolls. Each of those charts has something that gives you feel no pain, a 1/6 chance actually, so you roll 5 times, that makes it a 5/6ths chance to get one of those, actually higher as you have to count rerolls.

Statistically one of those rolls is going to grant you some way to get feel no pain either the Greater Gift or the Rolling on Biomancy and it's going to be a greater odds of 5 rolls total so around a 80% or more if you roll all on biomancy.

It's of course different than the Gift Feel No pain as you have to cast it, but it's still feel no pain.

That's not how the odds work at all. You don't just add the fractions together to get the combined odds. If you have 5 rolls each with a 1/6 chance to get what you'd like and can reroll duplicate results it comes to about 2/3 chance of getting it. That takes into account rerolls as well by doing [1-(5/6)(4/5)(5/6)(4/5)(3/4)]

I'm sure someone can correct me but I am pretty sure the equation to use is

(1/6 + 1/5) =
(1/6 + 1/5 + 1/4) =

I may be incorrect though it's early and I was into my cups when I wrote that but because it's 2 separate charts that you are rolling on you would actually have to calculate the odds separately, but since the rule applies to both charts ( IE you reroll duplicates on both charts) ad hoc statement of treat them the same is fine.

Those people recommending removing fateweaver and the warp storm are crazy.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Just starting up Daemons, running 3-4 FMC in my new proto-list.
This thread has been an excellent help for me regarding which MCs/FMCs are good for what and most/least useful, what else to bring with them, and especially regarding which psyker powers are most/least beneficial.

I've got questions regarding the rewards though. I'm getting that for most DPs the general consensus is buying 2x Greater rewards for survivability, and if you're fielding Nurgle DPs and the opponent has multiple high wound models or MCs of their own, swap a Greater for the Balesword.

But which Greater do you swap? Is the Balesword > or < than Armourbane/Fleshbane?
Which MCs to purchase Lesser Rewards for?
Which ones do you want Exalted rewards on, and more specifically where do you put which Hellforged artifacts?

Pardon my ignorance and thanks for your time!

The psychic powers and greater rewards you would take greatly depend on what your opponent is bringing. For example, a baleswoard would be good if you are going against a monstrous creature list (because it grants instant death). But the armourbane/fleshbane reward would be great if you are going against vehicles or knights. My advice is to play several games with the rewards you like, and see which work best for you. In general (I run a nurgle list) I go for feel no pain and the armourbane/fleshbane. If there are no vehicles or knights, I take a balesword. The psychic powers I like are from Biomancy. So I shoot for Iron Arm and Endurance. If already have Iron Arm and the Greater Reward that grants feel no pain, I take a roll on telepathy hoping to get Invisibilty.

There are many combinations that can work to great effect.

Yeah, I can't foresee not taking Fateweaver in a FMC list.

i have wanted to try fateweaver, but I'm too pre occupied with double bloodthirsters, and belakor.

having so much fun with this list, and i know, thirsters suck... yadayadayada...

but two of them with belakor, a bunch of dogs, and soulgrinders? yes please!

Hollismason wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I think people are looking at the Greater Rewards the Wrong way. It's not that you are getting a 1/6th chance to get Feel No Pain (it's actually higher w/ 2 rolls)

It's that when you add in rolling on Biomancy your odds to get Feel No Pain increase to almost a 80%.

What?

You have 2 rolls on a D6 chart to get feel no pain then if you choose Biomancy you have 3 more rolls. Each of those charts has something that gives you feel no pain, a 1/6 chance actually, so you roll 5 times, that makes it a 5/6ths chance to get one of those, actually higher as you have to count rerolls.

Statistically one of those rolls is going to grant you some way to get feel no pain either the Greater Gift or the Rolling on Biomancy and it's going to be a greater odds of 5 rolls total so around a 80% or more if you roll all on biomancy.

It's of course different than the Gift Feel No pain as you have to cast it, but it's still feel no pain.

That's not how the odds work at all. You don't just add the fractions together to get the combined odds. If you have 5 rolls each with a 1/6 chance to get what you'd like and can reroll duplicate results it comes to about 2/3 chance of getting it. That takes into account rerolls as well by doing [1-(5/6)(4/5)(5/6)(4/5)(3/4)]

I'm sure someone can correct me but I am pretty sure the equation to use is

(1/6 + 1/5) =
(1/6 + 1/5 + 1/4) =

I may be incorrect though it's early and I was into my cups when I wrote that but because it's 2 separate charts that you are rolling on you would actually have to calculate the odds separately, but since the rule applies to both charts ( IE you reroll duplicates on both charts) ad hoc statement of treat them the same is fine.

Completely wrong. If there were a lot more instances of rolling you would add up to over 100% probability which is impossible.

Also you don't calculate powers and rewards separately (as they both contribute to the probability of your daemon rolling 4+ FNP), you just have to account for them being dependent variables

Hollismason wrote:

You have 2 rolls on a D6 chart to get feel no pain then if you choose Biomancy you have 3 more rolls. Each of those charts has something that gives you feel no pain, a 1/6 chance actually, so you roll 5 times, that makes it a 5/6ths chance to get one of those, actually higher as you have to count rerolls.

If you are trying to calculate the chance of getting at least one FnP Gift or Power, you need to calculate the chance of failing every roll and then taking that from 1 to determine the chance of not failing every single roll.

So it would be

1- (5/6 * 4/5 *5/6 * 4/5 * 3/4) = 2/3 = 66.667% chance of getting at least one FnP power or gift.

Fateweaver also allows you last ditch combos. For instance, at the ATC, an opponent of mine had a Herald star allied and Ahriman and some other things on a skyshield.

Turn one on the warp storm I rolled a 6 and a 1. I used Fateweaver's re roll to re roll the 1. I got a 5. Ahriman was forced to take a leadership check or be removed from play. Poof. Ahriman gone and I automatically kick off the game with first blood and slay the warlord. It also gave me a 4 power dice advantage.

I can't tell you how many times I've used the staff to manipulate the warp storm to my advantage. Anytime you roll a 6 on one of the dice, his re roll gives you a 50% chance of getting +1 invulnerable, killing a psyker, or getting a free unit.

I'm pretty sure I would pay 300pts for just his re roll in most games.

 Master Shake wrote:
Fateweaver also allows you last ditch combos. For instance, at the ATC, an opponent of mine had a Herald star allied and Ahriman and some other things on a skyshield.

Turn one on the warp storm I rolled a 6 and a 1. I used Fateweaver's re roll to re roll the 1. I got a 5. Ahriman was forced to take a leadership check or be removed from play. Poof. Ahriman gone and I automatically kick off the game with first blood and slay the warlord. It also gave me a 4 power dice advantage.

I can't tell you how many times I've used the staff to manipulate the warp storm to my advantage. Anytime you roll a 6 on one of the dice, his re roll gives you a 50% chance of getting +1 invulnerable, killing a psyker, or getting a free unit.

I'm pretty sure I would pay 300pts for just his re roll in most games.

I'd definitely include him if I were playing super competitive games. Unfortunately, our store is mostly casual (foot Marines, few to no Fliers, no one allies, etc, Tyranid lists with no Flyrants or even no Tyrants at all, etc), and I don't want to be the guy who brings the 300 point MC Unique that imbalances the game.

Then again, I like winning.

He also allows a reroll of that nasty Double 2, which succccks.



Yeah, I just threw that together, the percentages stuff isn't my strong suit.

I think the big thing that we should probably be talking about is more how to deal with the stupid Cullexus in a flier or Drop Pod (possible now with Space Wolves) I mean it's really hard to deal with the Drop Pod version. The Flier version you have a good chance again. That drop pod though, I honestly can't come up with a Defense against that. Normally you castle or at least I do against Drop Pod spam or I summon a mass amount of Daemons as much as I can to make a buffer.

Just hard to deal with that.


I mean just dealing with the Cullexus in general is difficult, but he'll straight up murder Fateweaver and just shut down your game for a turn on a alpha strike and quickly. Then shuts down any defenses you have put up and if they get the 1st it's really difficult.

Having been on the recieving end of a Drop Pod Cullexus and Centurionstar it's tough.

Nurgle's a bit better against him, because they auto get the Shrouded.

Hollismason wrote:I think the big thing that we should probably be talking about is more how to deal with the stupid Cullexus in a flier or Drop Pod (possible now with Space Wolves) I mean it's really hard to deal with the Drop Pod version. The Flier version you have a good chance again. That drop pod though, I honestly can't come up with a Defense against that. Normally you castle or at least I do against Drop Pod spam or I summon a mass amount of Daemons as much as I can to make a buffer.

Just hard to deal with that.


I mean just dealing with the Cullexus in general is difficult, but he'll straight up murder Fateweaver and just shut down your game for a turn on a alpha strike and quickly. Then shuts down any defenses you have put up and if they get the 1st it's really difficult.

Having been on the recieving end of a Drop Pod Cullexus and Centurionstar it's tough.

Nurgle's a bit better against him, because they auto get the Shrouded.

This is one of the advantages of nurgle princes. Their self reliance.

As long as the damage isn't too bad you can always jump away from the Cullexus however if they are dropping it in they probably dropped a bunch of other nasty stuff and are likely to kill whatever they drop near. My strategy for this sort of thing is to bait one corner of the board with my army or the more expensive half of my army. I then put any important objectives I get to place in the other corner. Either they drop in and kill a significant portion of my army and have extreme difficulties getting back to objectives or they get the objective but deal vastly less damage. In the case of the Tz based list with dependence on shrouding this is less ideal.

Another option could be a void shield gen to place the daemons inside spaced out so that the pods cannot land inside. Otherwise you could try to create a bubble wrap with your troops by placing them ~5" out from the FMC so that the pod cannot land between and the opponent will only be able to effectively engage the outer least valuable models. Still likely to end with a whole lot of damage though.

Reserving most of your army could also work but then you come in piece meal...

Master Shake wrote:I can't tell you how many times I've used the staff to manipulate the warp storm to my advantage. Anytime you roll a 6 on one of the dice, his re roll gives you a 50% chance of getting +1 invulnerable, killing a psyker, or getting a free unit.

I'm pretty sure I would pay 300pts for just his re roll in most games.

There used to be a brilliant article with the chances and everything and when to use the reroll both vs when to reroll 1 dice. It was out in 6ed. I cannot seem to find it now but fatey's ability to manipulate the table is an incredibly powerful ability in and of itself. Your case of Arhiman is an excellent example.

Yeah, Nurgle doesn't suffer as badly as Tzeentch and Slaanesh, but he's still something that's a huge annoyance. Even if he does infiltrate you'll be hard pressed to shoot him because psychic attacks don't hurt him. Beams do but otherwise.

It's not that he's hard to kill , its that if he get's the jump on you it can be absolutely devastating. You get GravCenturions or Bikers coming at you plus this guy just moved then ran up at you.

I usually kill him with auto hits from the screamers.

How many people are running assassins in a tournament build?

I don't play in tournaments but all of my friends who play Imperial try to find room in their List for either the Vindicare or Callidus. Cullexus if their playing me.

Played with Be'lakor and a Nurgle DP working Biomancy vs Ravenwing the other day.
Those two models almost singlehandedly won me that match. Every turn they each took out a unit of bikers, and both survived the game.
Lost on VP though since he was zooming around nabbing objectives and I saw red and mostly played to kill.

Didn't bother swooping Be'lakor at all, and the Nurgle Prince only on T1.

That was the Ravenwing player's first match vs FMCs, but while he won on VP it went poorly for him combat-wise. Do DA/Ravenwing have an answer to FMCs?

Back to the assassins...I don't have the data slate so forgive the ignorance. Assassins can infiltrate and move 6 per turn? The callidus is not going to do much to demon players and I am not sure the vindicare is super scary either as you can hide models outside of LOS that are important even in squads.

The Cullex has a 12 inch bubble that drops blessings and maledictions. That is awful I agree and you can only manifest on a 6. However, I am not sure how that stops a summoning list you have 4 flying models that can cast plus two squads of horrors. A question I have is with brotherhood of psykers I can choose who to manifest the power with. If one horror is within 12 I assume that horror manifests on a 6 but not the one that is 13 inches away? Is that a correct assumption? I know it comes from the unit champion to begin with etc but you should be able to keep it 12 inches away. The assassin at some point cannot be everywhere to stop you from casting and keeping up powers. If it is in a storm raven it might be turn 3 before it turns up and at that point you are fighting down over 350 points. In a 1500 point game that is not an insignificant amount and you could have so much on the board in 2-3 turns the assassin does not matter. If you tie it up with a squad (yes you might not kill it) but he is not moving for a few turns.

Do assassins get hit and run?

I personally think that a rule which should be enforced is the following:

If the enemy kills your Assassin, he has the right to take the model and crush it beneath his feet.

Seriously... Assassins.

What's the problem with assassins? If the culexus gets up in my bidness, I move away in the movement phase, manifest powers as normal in the psychic phase, and slash him to death with screamers in short order. Problem solved.

That's the way I've been handling him. No, the problem is Alpha Strike and the Cullexus being stuck in fliers as his 12 extends out from the hull which sucks. Vindicare has Precision shots, and a shot that ignores invulnerable along with a shot Turbo penetrator to cause D3 Wounds. It's not a pleasant thing to face he can in fact reliably put wounds on FMCs w/ D3 wounds. His weapon is AP2 , so you only get your invulnerable. He also can reliably penetrate Soul Grinders w/ ST10 AP2 shot that ignores cover if their Nurgle. So yeah he's not pleasant ot face.

None of the assassins are "OMG overpowered" they're very powerfun units but they are absolute pain in the ass to deal with if you ignore them.

It's just not pleasant.

Also, the Cullexus can move, fire , and run in the shooting phase.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
What's the problem with assassins? If the culexus gets up in my bidness, I move away in the movement phase, manifest powers as normal in the psychic phase, and slash him to death with screamers in short order. Problem solved.

Well... as a chaos player, I live to destroy any Imperium dogs I see. And the Assassins are on the same level as Grey Knights in my eyes (complete abominations). But on another note....I just hate assassins. Can really ruin my day sometimes.

Yeah, they can just really ruin your day is basically it. Especially the Vindicare firing off the D3 wounds one. It's just nasty.

I read a bat rep a bit ago where the daemon princes didn't take the armor, because they had a 1/3 chance to get it as a reward.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I read a bat rep a bit ago where the daemon princes didn't take the armor, because they had a 1/3 chance to get it as a reward.

I believe that qualifies as idiocy.

Thanks for derailing my question NightWrench.
Some but not all of the assassins have hit & run. Culexus assassins are going to seriously hamper Daemon psyker heavy armies if we aren't all over the board. Plus they're reasonably difficult to put down.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Thanks for derailing my question NightWrench.
Some but not all of the assassins have hit & run. Culexus assassins are going to seriously hamper Daemon psyker heavy armies if we aren't all over the board. Plus they're reasonably difficult to put down.

In your experience, how difficult is it to take an assassin out? They aren't that tanky in my experience. In fact, they are relatively squishy wouldn't you say?

The problem with the Cullexus is that shooting is pretty worthless, you need 6s to hit him then he ignores it on a 4+, so he's really annoying.

The problem with the Vindicare is he ignores cover, has AP2 , and is prob going to wound you.

So you get your 5++ and if you you fail D3 wounds.

Hollismason wrote:
The problem with the Cullexus is that shooting is pretty worthless, you need 6s to hit him then he ignores it on a 4+, so he's really annoying.

The problem with the Vindicare is he ignores cover, has AP2 , and is prob going to wound you.

So you get your 5++ and if you you fail D3 wounds.

That's an average of 1 wound a turn on a daemon prince (one who didnt get FNP or reroll invulns), and even then it's only if you are gliding.

Against a soul grinder it needs a 4+ to penetrate and a 5 to immobilise or a 6 explode. So he has a 1 in 12 chance of destroying your grinder, and another 1 in 12 chance (1 in 6 overall) of immobilising it (which could be just as bad) add in the 5+ invuln and it's a 1 in 8. Soul grinders have 4 HP and ignore shaken/stunned on a 2+ so he doesn't really need to worry too much about any of the other results (or glances).

I'm going to change the subject a little here.... How are Daemon FMC Lists dealing with vehicle heavy armies?

Since smash was nerfed, how are you taking out vehicles??

I would be worried about running into an Imperial Guard Parking Lot or a formation of 3 Knights.

Crystal-Maze wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Why would you eliminate the warpstorm? I have found that it helps more than harms.

It can give major boons to your army, but all of the decent potential outcomes are mirrored on the table by terrible ones. Sure, Fateweaver grents re-rolls, but its still an element of chance that some players prefer to eliminate. It just means that the player dictates more of what happens in the game, rather than letting the dice decide.

In all of my games (hundreds) so far since the new Daemon codex, I've only had the Warp Storm screw me once or twice. Fateweaver's Warlord re-roll and single D6 re-roll per turn smooths out a lot of the randomness in the army. I have a rule of not re-rolling results of 7, and only rerolling results of 2,3 or 4. I will sometimes re-roll a single D6 if I haven't used Fatweweaver's single D6 re-roll yet though, but by the shooting phase I've usually already used it on the Grimoire, a reserve roll, adjusting a Psychic Shriek results, etc.

 AutarchRion wrote:
I'm going to change the subject a little here.... How are Daemon FMC Lists dealing with vehicle heavy armies?

Since smash was nerfed, how are you taking out vehicles??

I would be worried about running into an Imperial Guard Parking Lot or a formation of 3 Knights.

They're great. AB/FB greater gifts, S8 AP1 lance greater gift, and summoning. Plague bearers will eventually bring down a knight titan.

Personally, if I roll flesh bane armour bane a prince I try like hell to get iron arm so I can run around the board kicking knight titans in the dick. (With fateweaver using prescience on him)

 Master Shake wrote:

 AutarchRion wrote:
I'm going to change the subject a little here.... How are Daemon FMC Lists dealing with vehicle heavy armies?

Since smash was nerfed, how are you taking out vehicles??

I would be worried about running into an Imperial Guard Parking Lot or a formation of 3 Knights.

They're great. AB/FB greater gifts, S8 AP1 lance greater gift, and summoning. Plague bearers will eventually bring down a knight titan.

Personally, if I roll flesh bane armour bane a prince I try like hell to get iron arm so I can run around the board kicking knight titans in the dick. (With fateweaver using prescience on him)

I played a guy this weekend in a local tournament that was running the Adamantine Lance formation. I rolled Tzeentch powers on my two princes, and between them and Fateweaver I got first blood from one of his Knights. That one exploded and caused some damage to the other two, one of which was finished off by my Invisible Screamers, the other by Be'lakor.

The nice thing about Psychic shooting is being able to scoot around his shields. He can't reset them until the start of my shooting phase.

Hollismason nailed it, the Culexus only gets hit by snap-shots and has a 4++. Rather annoying.

undertow awesome to hear about the Adamantine Lance going down hard to your Daemons. How many Screamers you run to support your FMCs?

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Hollismason nailed it, the Culexus only gets hit by snap-shots and has a 4++. Rather annoying.

undertow awesome to hear about the Adamantine Lance going down hard to your Daemons. How many Screamers you run to support your FMCs?

At 1750 I run one squad of 7. They got Invisibility in turn 1, as well as keeping a model within 6" of Be'lakor for Shrouding. Then they were in combat with a Knight by turn 2, still invisible.

I've never had any problems with Knights.

Also, currently playing a FMC army but with the Helbrute Murder Pack Database.

It's super fun but super low model count starting off. Not really competitive.

Best investment I made was getting hold of the Helbrutes. It's a lot of fun to run a mechanized Chaos Daemon force.

Cheers undertow. At 1850 I'm planning on a unit of 6, maybe I'll try shuffle some pts around for more.

Hollismason; How do you kit out the Murderpack?

 AutarchRion wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
What's the problem with assassins? If the culexus gets up in my bidness, I move away in the movement phase, manifest powers as normal in the psychic phase, and slash him to death with screamers in short order. Problem solved.

Well... as a chaos player, I live to destroy any Imperium dogs I see. And the Assassins are on the same level as Grey Knights in my eyes (complete abominations). But on another note....I just hate assassins. Can really ruin my day sometimes.

I like this statement. I feel the same for Eldar or Tau as well just not to the same extent.

@Laughingcarp

I didn't mean to derail your question. Ravenwing Blackknights and librarians rolling on Divinity. Twin linked ignoring cover plasma guns can ruin an FMC day, providing you get Perfect Timing.

@gwarsh41

If your meta is grav gun heavy or centstar heavy I could make an arguement for this too. Grav guns are awful if you have no armor other than your inv.

What is the biggest issue you guys run into against GK? Got a local dude I will probably end up playing in the campaign soon, sure he will tailor a bit if he knows he is fighting daemons. Doesn't seem too hard for GK to tailor anti daemons though.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
What is the biggest issue you guys run into against GK? Got a local dude I will probably end up playing in the campaign soon, sure he will tailor a bit if he knows he is fighting daemons. Doesn't seem too hard for GK to tailor anti daemons though.

With Force being subject to Deny the Witch and Warp Quake being removed, I don't think it's as uphill a battle as it was in 5th if a GK player decided to tailor against you. It might be harder to get your key blessings off, but you could just throw a few more dice at the really important ones. My army might suffer a bit with all of my shooting being Psychic, but you could tailor to him as well

I've not had difficulty with Grey Knights, just don't target them with Psychic Abilities.

I just use my FMCs as summoning platforms instead of beat sticks because of their ID stuff.

Overall it's not that difficult of a match up.

They can wreck you though if you are not careful and they get lucky.