Of all the Traitor Legions, the Night Lords seem to be the most vilified.
So I'm creating this thread as I would like to collect a list of what people think are the redeeming qualities of the Night Lords.
If you don't think they have any, that's fine. This thread is not for arguing about whether the Night Lords are good or bad. It's just to find the good stuff about the Night Lords, their "silver lining".
The Night Lords rebelled. They didn't fall to Chaos.
While they may make use of the gifts of Chaos, they are not its slaves. They fight the Imperium because of the injustice of the Emperor after Curze cleansed Nostramo as the Imperium did to many worlds.
The Night Lords are BATMAN IN SPACE. Do they need any redeeming features?
Their redeeming qualities then, IMO, are as follows:
1) they're not totally devoted to the dark gods
2) they disapprove of possession and dealing with daemons
3) they're BATMAN
4) they're renegades and pirates, making for good story plots
5) they obviously listen to Depeche Mode. (Wait, is that a good thing?)
And finally, 6) Night Lords are BATMAN!
How is that a redeeming quality? No allegiance to any of the four gods or a greater lord just makes them into backstabbing mercenary scums, which is an awesome but not very redeeming quality.
Drakeslayer wrote: 2) they disapprove of possession and dealing with daemons
Khonsu wrote: Who cares if they do not worship chaos as long as they are warp touched?
Oooh they're atheists wow that's cool.
Uh, atheism is the belief that gods don't exist. They are very aware of their existence.
Greatest redeeming feature for Konrad is that he knew parts of what was going to happen, or least it's implied. If you know the Imperium is going to engage in an apocalyptic war, pitting you against your father and both of you will die... Well, you're gonna go crazy with those visions eventually.
Never really understood the "Batman in Space" thing.
I mean... yeah, they have the whole "bat" motif thing going on with the ears, but they're methodology and convictions make them seem more like Space Punisher.
and honestly their refusal to follow the chaos gods strikes me as mostly lip service. I'm sure they have cults to the various ruinious powers among their ranks.
Why do we have to redeem them? Why can't we just enjoy the bad guy? An Anti-hero. There is no single character I like more in the 40k universe than Zso Sahaal but that doesn't mean we need to find some honor in his pre-heresy ways. Enjoy the villain.
Just like Batman, they are extremely skilled, use stealth and psychology to beat superior numbers, and use high tech; but in addition to Batman they are gigantic nasty monsters.
Why do we have to redeem them? Why can't we just enjoy the bad guy? An Anti-hero. There is no single character I like more in the 40k universe than Zso Sahaal but that doesn't mean we need to find some honor in his pre-heresy ways. Enjoy the villain.
My thoughts exactly. I cant find any real redeeming features for them. But thats how they are written and Im fine with that.
How is that a redeeming quality? No allegiance to any of the four gods or a greater lord just makes them into backstabbing mercenary scums, which is an awesome but not very redeeming quality.
Because they are taking a stand on principle, not because they are mindlessly obedient to a supernatural power. 1ksons fight because they're armor-robots who are compelled to do so, and khorne berzerkers fight because it's the only thing they can do anymore thanks to intentional brain damage and insane compulsion.
Night lords fight against the imperium because it's corrupt and brutal and awful in every way, and once they wake up all the sheeple they can restore order and liberty. What redeems them is that they epitomise the civil liberty aspect of chaos. They're still chaos, though, because they're donkey-caves about it. They're the occupy movement with guns, and, like other terrorist organizations like, formerly, ETA or the IRA, their fundamental disrespect for people they consider stupider or worse than them permits them to commit violence that is arguably against the entire point of what they're trying to achieve in the first place. Well-meaning, but flawed. That's really chaos in a nutshell.
I'd like them more, except for the stupid bat ears.
BlaxicanX wrote:I mean... yeah, they have the whole "bat" motif thing going on with the ears, but they're methodology and convictions make them seem more like Space Punisher.
+1
If only they went around in black with a skull motif instead of flappy faced lightning squiggles...
Night lords fight against the imperium because it's corrupt and brutal and awful in every way, and once they wake up all the sheeple they can restore order and liberty. What redeems them is that they epitomise the civil liberty aspect of chaos. They're still chaos, though, because they're donkey-caves about it. They're the occupy movement with guns, and, like other terrorist organizations like, formerly, ETA or the IRA, their fundamental disrespect for people they consider stupider or worse than them permits them to commit violence that is arguably against the entire point of what they're trying to achieve in the first place. Well-meaning, but flawed. That's really chaos in a nutshell.
The NL represent, more than civil liberties, unfettered personal freedom... and why that's such a terrible thing. They are, by their very nature, terrorists to such extremes that we would probably need to invent a new word, like "ultra-megaterrorism" or "hyper-pantsgakking-terrorism" to describe their combat doctrine.
There's nothing redeeming about this Legion. They aren't meant to be redeemable. They're monsters in super-human guises.
That's what tyrannid are for, or even DE or orks to an extent.
What makes chaos so good is that they're so relatable. They're not faceless monsters, they're "normal people" who have made what look, on the face of it, reasonable decisions, and then live with the nightmare of their own consequences.
Chaos works because it could be you. It works because it reminds you that the Nazis were voted into power, anti-poverty measures since the 1970's have increased poverty, and that the path to hell is paved in good intentions and the desire to do things your way. They're the epitome of beware what you wish for, lest you get it.
They're not just yet another faceless, alien, unintelligible threat out there somewhere. It's the danger from within...
SharkoutofWata wrote: Why do we have to redeem them? Why can't we just enjoy the bad guy? An Anti-hero. There is no single character I like more in the 40k universe than Zso Sahaal but that doesn't mean we need to find some honor in his pre-heresy ways. Enjoy the villain.
Because that would make them one-dimensional? Even Hitler had a good side.
I don't see the NL as anything like that. Just like Colonel Kurtz, they stopped being human and became beasts. They went into the jungle and, instead of taming it, they became beasts within it.
There's nothing relatable about the Night Lords. Nothing they or their Primarch experienced is anything like anything any of us on these boards, or any other human being who has ever heard of Warhammer 40,000 has ever, or will ever, experience. This is true about most of the Traitor Legions, specifically, but the setting in-general.
Yes, the Nazis were voted into power; it's also a really bad example because their nationalism and anti-semetism were not exactly unusual for the era, and the reason they came into power is directly a result of the Treaty of Versailles that ended the First World War. The Night Lords were not. They were not elected. They hold no office. They answer to no one. They are a rogue military resource, nothing more. They do what they do because they want to do it. They really have nothing but their own selfish interests in mind when they do it, too. They're not setting anyone free of anything. They're not striking against "The Man". They're simply butchering innocent people, and the response sent to defend those innocent people, for the lulz.
Psienesis wrote:There's nothing relatable about the Night Lords.
Nothing? Not one thing?
No one can relate to the bitterness caused by loss of faith, and the desire to reciprocate against those who still believe. No one can relate to engaging on a mindless level those who a person believes too stupid to engage on a rational one. No one can relate to being ordered to do something that you think will cause more harm than good, and having to weigh obedience against responsibility and utility. No one has ever felt the sting of being rebuked for doing one's job too well, or the listless yearning of fighting for a lost cause.
Nope. Completely unrelatable.
Psienesis wrote:Yes, the Nazis were voted into power; it's also a really bad example because their nationalism and anti-semetism were not exactly unusual for the era, and the reason they came into power is directly a result of the Treaty of Versailles that ended the First World War. The Night Lords were not.
It's an idea showing an example of something else by comparing similarities, not relating direct equivalency. It's an analogy. Sheesh.
Like the above, I think you're failing to appreciate how abstract ideas can be related to individual circumstances.
No one can relate to the bitterness caused by loss of faith, and the desire to reciprocate against those who still believe. No one can relate to engaging on a mindless level those who a person believes too stupid to engage on a rational one. No one can relate to being ordered to do something that you think will cause more harm than good, and having to weigh obedience against responsibility and utility. No one has ever felt the sting of being rebuked for doing one's job too well, or the listless yearning of fighting for a lost cause.
No, because I'm not a psychopath.
To quote Colonel Kurtz (and, by extension, Conrad Kurze):
Colonel Kurtz wrote:I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror... Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies! I remember when I was with Special Forces... seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate some children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried, I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out; I didn't know what I wanted to do! And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it... I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, my God... the genius of that! The genius! The will to do that! Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we, because they could stand that these were not monsters, these were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men, our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment! Because it's judgment that defeats us.
Perhaps you are. Feeling emotions, including negative ones, is part of being human. If you can't feel hurt or betrayal, then either you've achieved enlightenment or something's wrong.
Ailaros wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:I mean... yeah, they have the whole "bat" motif thing going on with the ears, but they're methodology and convictions make them seem more like Space Punisher.
+1
If only they went around in black with a skull motif instead of flappy faced lightning squiggles...
Perhaps you are. Feeling emotions, including negative ones, is part of being human. If you can't feel hurt or betrayal, then either you've achieved enlightenment or something's wrong.
Ailaros wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:I mean... yeah, they have the whole "bat" motif thing going on with the ears, but they're methodology and convictions make them seem more like Space Punisher.
+1
If only they went around in black with a skull motif instead of flappy faced lightning squiggles...
Oh, they do, sort of:
Definitely more Punisher and less Adam West.
There’s a dream I have from time to time. And in the dream I don’t stop. I kill the soldiers and the hitmen. The extortioners and the racketeers, the dark old feths who send them out to fight — I hold the trigger down until they’re all gone —
But I don’t stop.
The innocents are just watching, like always. The slack-jawed thousands, gazing at the beast. My family lie red and shredded in the grass. I face the crowd and bring the weapon to my shoulder. If my world ends, I tell them, so does yours.
The recoil starts and I wake up.
It’s just a dream, I always tell myself. It’s just a dream.
Night lords fight against the imperium because it's corrupt and brutal and awful in every way, and once they wake up all the sheeple they can restore order and liberty. What redeems them is that they epitomise the civil liberty aspect of chaos. They're still chaos, though, because they're donkey-caves about it. They're the occupy movement with guns, and, like other terrorist organizations like, formerly, ETA or the IRA, their fundamental disrespect for people they consider stupider or worse than them permits them to commit violence that is arguably against the entire point of what they're trying to achieve in the first place. Well-meaning, but flawed. That's really chaos in a nutshell.
The NL represent, more than civil liberties, unfettered personal freedom... and why that's such a terrible thing. They are, by their very nature, terrorists to such extremes that we would probably need to invent a new word, like "ultra-megaterrorism" or "hyper-pantsgakking-terrorism" to describe their combat doctrine.
There's nothing redeeming about this Legion. They aren't meant to be redeemable. They're monsters in super-human guises.
Night lords fight against the imperium because it's corrupt and brutal and awful in every way, and once they wake up all the sheeple they can restore order and liberty. What redeems them is that they epitomise the civil liberty aspect of chaos. They're still chaos, though, because they're donkey-caves about it. They're the occupy movement with guns, and, like other terrorist organizations like, formerly, ETA or the IRA, their fundamental disrespect for people they consider stupider or worse than them permits them to commit violence that is arguably against the entire point of what they're trying to achieve in the first place. Well-meaning, but flawed. That's really chaos in a nutshell.
The NL represent, more than civil liberties, unfettered personal freedom... and why that's such a terrible thing. They are, by their very nature, terrorists to such extremes that we would probably need to invent a new word, like "ultra-megaterrorism" or "hyper-pantsgakking-terrorism" to describe their combat doctrine.
There's nothing redeeming about this Legion. They aren't meant to be redeemable. They're monsters in super-human guises.
The Night Lords are fully aware that the chaos gods exist, but (for most of them) that's no good reason to go around doing anything as stupid as believing in them!
And....no. The scariest thing about them - the 'proper' night lords, like Sevatar and Talos - is that they aren't psychopaths. They're sociopaths. They're quite* sane, but have dispassionately decided that the most time-efficient approach to getting what they want is skinning you alive with a flensing scalpel.
If I had to pick one redeedming quality, it's that because of the above, a lot of them aren't the cackling psychopaths that they are made out to be (and Kurse definitely was). If you read the verious Night Lords books, a surprising number of them end up getting killed doing something stupid and/or noble, despite their best efforts to the contrary.
If I had to pick one redeedming quality, it's that because of the above, a lot of them aren't the cackling psychopaths that they are made out to be (and Kurse definitely was). If you read the verious Night Lords books, a surprising number of them end up getting killed doing something stupid and/or noble, despite their best efforts to the contrary.
* well, as sane as chaos marines get.
I have to defend Kurze. There's only one or two Primarchs that landed on a world worse than Nostramo. There were none cursed with his visions.
The Emperor could have helped him at any time and didn't. Kurze was driven insane- he didn't choose his path.
Ehhh... most of the Primarchs landed on gakky war-torn planets, but not all of them turned bad. Sanguinus grew up on a planet infested with zombie-mutants, Corax was a prisoner, Kahn was a Warlord enamored in constant fighting, etc.
Living in a gak-hole is no excuse for being an donkey-cave. I say the same thing for Kurze that I say about Angron. If he was really just a poor tortured soul who hated life so much, he should have just vented himself out an airlock. There's no excuse for making the Galaxy suffer for your emotional baggage.
BlaxicanX wrote: Living in a gak-hole is no excuse for being an donkey-cave. I say the same thing for Kurze that I say about Angron. If he was really just a poor tortured soul who hated life so much, he should have just vented himself out an airlock. There's no excuse for making the Galaxy suffer for your emotional baggage.
What are you talking about? Living in a gak-hole is far and away the best excuse for being an donkey-cave. And venting himself out an airlock wasn't going to solve the problem of OMG EVERYONE IN THIS gakky GALAXY REALLY NEEDS TO DIE RIGHT NOW.
BlaxicanX wrote: Living in a gak-hole is no excuse for being an donkey-cave. I say the same thing for Kurze that I say about Angron. If he was really just a poor tortured soul who hated life so much, he should have just vented himself out an airlock. There's no excuse for making the Galaxy suffer for your emotional baggage.
What are you talking about? Living in a gak-hole is far and away the best excuse for being an donkey-cave.
Nah. Tell that to all the Primarchs who grew up on gak-holes and didn't become psychotic monsters.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: And venting himself out an airlock wasn't going to solve the problem of OMG EVERYONE IN THIS gakky GALAXY REALLY NEEDS TO DIE RIGHT NOW.
Indeed. Hence why they're psychotic villainous bad guys rather than tortured puppies that just need a hug.
Oh, I'm not saying that growing up into Psychotic Evil Vampire Batman was necessarily a choice Kurze made so much as what was forced onto him, but it's nevertheless what happened.
Yes, Corax and Sanguinius were on worlds almost as bad. But they had something he didn't - any form of caring human contact. Both were raised by humans as children and grew up with broadly positive views of humanity in their psyches.
A closer analogy is the Lion, who survived in the forest as a child, and was introduced into society later - and noticeably is a primarch with next to no people skills who despite his tactical and strategic instincts, can't really cope with a war where you don't have the good guys in white hats and the bad guys in black hats, and alternates between refusing to trust anyone and trusting people he really shouldn't have.
Kurze watched humanity from the outside, and formed his lasting opinion from the world he was born on. Unfortunately for the galaxy, that world was Nostromo, which is portrayed as an equal mix of 1920's chicago and the Butcher Bay super-max prison. As a result, his - perfectly logical - decision was that humanity consists entirely of terrified sheep and vicious bastards, and the only way to maintain any kind of order is to be even more terrifying, vicious, and bastardish than anyone else.
Terror - at least early on - is a method, not a goal.
Of course, visions, hatred, and general psycohopathy kind of corrupted that along the way.
The Night Lords are fully aware that the chaos gods exist, but (for most of them) that's no good reason to go around doing anything as stupid as believing in them!
This part is more interesting, the more I think about it. In a way, it's sort of the rokko's basilisk problem.
Most chaos know that the chaos gods exist, and they then worship them, and most people in general don't worship them, but they don't know about their existence, either, so of course they wouldn't. It's an interesting idea that NL know that the gods are real, and that they don't worship them at the same time. They're not atheists - they know the chaos gods exist, nor are they your more garden-variety unbeliever.
They are apostates - they know the truth, but choose to reject its implications on ethical grounds.
I mean, it's easy to be an atheist in a world where there's no proof of god, but let's say that tomorrow he shows up everywhere and says "yeah, I'm real", and then hangs around and starts doing a bunch of god stuff. In the case of material proof, of course, very few would be atheists anymore (though there are a few flat-earthers left), but think about what kind of person you'd have to be to see tangible proof of the existence of God and then say "No thanks, we'll get along better on our own."
That's a special kind of crazy balsiness. That sort of infallible positivism is rare. Secular humanism, in a way, put to the test in a way it can't be now.
What you're describing is an anti-theist. Given the history of the world with a definitive god-form running it, I can see why people would take that position.
After all, there's some pretty terrible gak in the world. If God showed up tomorrow, I would ask Him "Why?". I doubt any answer He could give would satisfy me.
BlaxicanX wrote:I mean... yeah, they have the whole "bat" motif thing going on with the ears, but they're methodology and convictions make them seem more like Space Punisher.
+1
If only they went around in black with a skull motif instead of flappy faced lightning squiggles...
You mean like the skull motif that lies at the center of their Legion symbol?
They have turned from the Emperor's light. There is no redemption for them. They have turned to their own agendas.
However, from a non-loyalist point of view, they actually are pretty redemptionable. Is that even a word? Anyways, they rebelled, which means that they did not turn to chaos. However, I don't think the Night Lords want to turn back to the Imperium.
They were always monsters. The Emperor chose them, turned them into superhuman monsters, and harnessed their horror upon Terra and the galaxy. To crush worlds in his name; flay, maim, defile, defenestrate, castrate, eviscerate and subjugate in his name. Their stubborn continued existence is a reminder that the Empire of Man was built on horror.
And when this Empire of Man finally tears itself apart, new monsters must be employed to strangle it back together.
How is that a redeeming quality? No allegiance to any of the four gods or a greater lord just makes them into backstabbing mercenary scums, which is an awesome but not very redeeming quality.
Because worshiping a god is shackling yourself to a life of servitude.
Night lords are all about freedom, what space marines can do when no one tells them how to act.
The Night Lords are fully aware that the chaos gods exist, but (for most of them) that's no good reason to go around doing anything as stupid as believing in them!
This part is more interesting, the more I think about it. In a way, it's sort of the rokko's basilisk problem.
Most chaos know that the chaos gods exist, and they then worship them, and most people in general don't worship them, but they don't know about their existence, either, so of course they wouldn't. It's an interesting idea that NL know that the gods are real, and that they don't worship them at the same time. They're not atheists - they know the chaos gods exist, nor are they your more garden-variety unbeliever.
They are apostates - they know the truth, but choose to reject its implications on ethical grounds.
I mean, it's easy to be an atheist in a world where there's no proof of god, but let's say that tomorrow he shows up everywhere and says "yeah, I'm real", and then hangs around and starts doing a bunch of god stuff. In the case of material proof, of course, very few would be atheists anymore (though there are a few flat-earthers left), but think about what kind of person you'd have to be to see tangible proof of the existence of God and then say "No thanks, we'll get along better on our own."
That's a special kind of crazy balsiness. That sort of infallible positivism is rare. Secular humanism, in a way, put to the test in a way it can't be now.
Indeed. It's kind of the reverse of the creed put forwards by Argel Tal and the less cackling bond-villain types in his legion - what you might call the 'proper' word bearers in the same way Talos and Sevatar are the 'proper' Night Lords*. He's torturing you, burning your blood and chanting in dark daemonic tongues not because he's mad but because chaos is real and thats how sorcery works.
"The chaos gods are real, and disbelieving in them isn't going to make them go away. This is the way the universe is - it doesn't matter if I like it or not."
Lorgar himself is actually kind of similar - he tells Magnus that 'he hears the voices of the gods' and magnus warns him that they'll try to decieve him. Lorgar responds that he said he can hear them, not that he trusts them.
You do realize that the film Braveheart is historical fiction of the worst sort, right? And the Age of Enlightenment didn't do away with religion (far from it, actually, it would go on to create several more of them), it simply did away with pagan beliefs in the supernatural.
He was the emperors terror weapon, his atomic threat. His legion quelled entire worlds merely by arriving in system. This is what the emperor wanted the night Haunter to be, however in the eyes of the fledgling imperium they went too far.
If you give a child a trowel and send them out into the garden to dig up weeds without properly instructing them as to which plants are actually flowers, how can you punish the child for your failings as a teacher?
Ailaros wrote: Yup, Braveheart was a movie, therefore freedom is a terrible thing.
/headdesk
One, William Wallace, in the film, represented a very-limited form of freedom. Freedom from an external nation ruling over an indigenous people. Not unlimited personal freedom to do whatever the feth you wanted.
Two, what "freedom" the Night Lords represent is "free to do whatever you want, until some stronger thing comes along, has its way with you, and leaves you broken and bleeding in the ruins of your own flesh, for the lulz"
Three, the Night Lords aren't freedom fighters. They're not trying to take down the Imperium. They know that is an impossible goal, especially since they fell apart into scattered warbands throughout the Eye of Terror since the death of Curze. They also don't give a feth about it. There is no unifying cause, creed or agenda for the Night Lords, apart from plunder and piracy. They exist only to fulfill their own selfish desires for loot, bloodshed, power, and entirely crushing an enemy.... preferably before the battle even starts. They are, at heart, cowards. They don't want to fight an enemy on even-footing, or even give an enemy any real chance to retaliate. The only battles they want to fight are the ones that they have all but guaranteed they are going to win, and win overwhelmingly, preferably through use of sabotage, terror, ambush and whatever underhanded trick they can imagine. A legion of honorable warriors, the Night Lords certainly are not.
Psienesis wrote: They are, at heart, cowards. They don't want to fight an enemy on even-footing, or even give an enemy any real chance to retaliate. The only battles they want to fight are the ones that they have all but guaranteed they are going to win, and win overwhelmingly, preferably through use of sabotage, terror, ambush and whatever underhanded trick they can imagine. A legion of honorable warriors, the Night Lords certainly are not.
What competent general ever wants to fight an enemy on an even footing or give them a chance to retaliate? I'm no military historian but I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of wars have been won because one side had an advantage over the other. Does that make the majority of victors cowards?
What competent general ever wants to fight an enemy on an even footing or give them a chance to retaliate? I'm no military historian but I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of wars have been won because one side had an advantage over the other. Does that make the majority of victors cowards?
The Night Lords would prefer to first rape and murder your civilian population. Then poison your water supply. And then infect your troops with Space-AIDS.
Then they capture the medical relief and replace the meds with more poisons.
We, in the modern world, have a dozen or more treaties that expressly forbid all of the above, and most civilized countries on the planet adhere to them.
What competent general ever wants to fight an enemy on an even footing or give them a chance to retaliate? I'm no military historian but I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of wars have been won because one side had an advantage over the other. Does that make the majority of victors cowards?
The Night Lords would prefer to first rape and murder your civilian population. Then poison your water supply. And then infect your troops with Space-AIDS.
Then they capture the medical relief and replace the meds with more poisons.
We, in the modern world, have a dozen or more treaties that expressly forbid all of the above, and most civilized countries on the planet adhere to them.
That's funny because the last major open conflict between great powers saw the wholesale bombing of civilian populations with the express purpose of causing as many civilian casualties as possible. Because when the chips are down the treaties all go out the window.
Ailaros wrote: Yup, Braveheart was a movie, therefore freedom is a terrible thing.
/headdesk
One, William Wallace, in the film, represented a very-limited form of freedom. Freedom from an external nation ruling over an indigenous people. Not unlimited personal freedom to do whatever the feth you wanted.
Two, what "freedom" the Night Lords represent is "free to do whatever you want, until some stronger thing comes along, has its way with you, and leaves you broken and bleeding in the ruins of your own flesh, for the lulz"
Three, the Night Lords aren't freedom fighters. They're not trying to take down the Imperium. They know that is an impossible goal, especially since they fell apart into scattered warbands throughout the Eye of Terror since the death of Curze. They also don't give a feth about it. There is no unifying cause, creed or agenda for the Night Lords, apart from plunder and piracy. They exist only to fulfill their own selfish desires for loot, bloodshed, power, and entirely crushing an enemy.... preferably before the battle even starts. They are, at heart, cowards. They don't want to fight an enemy on even-footing, or even give an enemy any real chance to retaliate. The only battles they want to fight are the ones that they have all but guaranteed they are going to win, and win overwhelmingly, preferably through use of sabotage, terror, ambush and whatever underhanded trick they can imagine. A legion of honorable warriors, the Night Lords certainly are not.
Anyone else get a massive sense of deja vu from this post?
What competent general ever wants to fight an enemy on an even footing or give them a chance to retaliate? I'm no military historian but I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of wars have been won because one side had an advantage over the other. Does that make the majority of victors cowards?
The Night Lords would prefer to first rape and murder your civilian population. Then poison your water supply. And then infect your troops with Space-AIDS.
Then they capture the medical relief and replace the meds with more poisons.
We, in the modern world, have a dozen or more treaties that expressly forbid all of the above, and most civilized countries on the planet adhere to them.
and most non state entities do not. The night lord's arent a country. They never claimed to be.
Which brings me back to my original point. They're cowards.They focus their attention on civilian targets, the unarmed, individuals who aren't even aware that they're at war with anyone yet. They're pirates and raiders, much like the Dark Eldar, striking the undefended, grabbing the loot, and then withdrawing before any serious resistance can be raised against them.
There is absolutely nothing redeemable about the Night Lords.
That's funny because the last major open conflict between great powers saw the wholesale bombing of civilian populations with the express purpose of causing as many civilian casualties as possible. Because when the chips are down the treaties all go out the window.
That was the war that created the treaties I mentioned.
Psienesis wrote: Which brings me back to my original point. They're cowards.They focus their attention on civilian targets, the unarmed, individuals who aren't even aware that they're at war with anyone yet. They're pirates and raiders, much like the Dark Eldar, striking the undefended, grabbing the loot, and then withdrawing before any serious resistance can be raised against them.
There is absolutely nothing redeemable about the Night Lords.
What is redeeming is that they aren't hipocrits. You think the IoM always opperates in a honorable way. Never kills innocent civilians, never attacks the softer support areas, never wages war against a force that isnt their equal?
All factions in 40k fight battles that suit them and commit war crimes. The night lords are just honest about it.
You think the IoM always opperates in a honorable way. Never kills innocent civilians, never attacks the softer support areas, never wages war against a force that isnt their equal?
Citation needed.
What is redeeming is that they aren't hipocrits.
Or they are. The NL are not a unified Legion. They're a scattering of small groups, warbands, brigands and even solo operatives. Nothing can be said about them that applies to all of them other than they primarily look out for #1 first and foremost, above all else.
"Not being a hypocrite" isn't a redeeming feature. What it IS is a "lack of a horrible/donkey-cave/evil feature"
Just because you are something that's NOT evil doesn't mean your good. A rock isn't a hypocrite either but I wouldn't particularly call that a redeeming feature of rocks.
Saying "At least they're not hypocrites" is the equivalent of saying "Well, at least they don't smell like monkey vomit" or "at least they aren't child molestors" or "at least they aren't chaos spawn". I wouldn't call either of those "redeeming features" either, myself. Instead, they're merely a "lack of being something awful"
TiamatRoar wrote:Saying "At least they're not hypocrites" is the equivalent of saying "Well, at least they don't smell like monkey vomit" or "at least they aren't child molestors" or "at least they aren't chaos spawn". I wouldn't call either of those "redeeming features" either, myself. Instead, they're merely a "lack of being something awful"
Redeeming one's self is compensating for the bad parts. Having some things that aren't bad about them when everyone else is slipping down the rankings because of that bad thing seems like a redemptive activity. Not AS redemptive as if, you know, they gave low-calorie snack foods to little kids or volunteered at the local library, but anything that's less worse than everyone else is technically a form of better.
Psienesis wrote: Ehm... John Wayne Gacy didn't kill as many people as Mao Tse Tung, but that does not make him a better person.
Good, no, but better, yes.
It's funny to be on the other side of this. For years back in 4th and 5th edition, people used to rave about autocannons because they were better at things that they were still terrible against. Better and good weren't synonyms, then, and they still aren't, now.
In any case, if the night lords butcher an entire planet, and then the imperium exterminatus' a planet, and then solves a slave revolt problem by killing all the slaves, then yes, for that duration, night lords would be better. They would be redeemed, if not absolutely, then relatively when compared to the imperium in this case.
Psienesis wrote: Ehm... John Wayne Gacy didn't kill as many people as Mao Tse Tung, but that does not make him a better person.
Good, no, but better, yes.
It's funny to be on the other side of this. For years back in 4th and 5th edition, people used to rave about autocannons because they were better at things that they were still terrible against. Better and good weren't synonyms, then, and they still aren't, now.
In any case, if the night lords butcher an entire planet, and then the imperium exterminatus' a planet, and then solves a slave revolt problem by killing all the slaves, then yes, for that duration, night lords would be better. They would be redeemed, if not absolutely, then relatively when compared to the imperium in this case.
Well no, Since the Night Lords are probably motivated by being psychotic killers/Batman-esque murderers and the Imperium being motivated in order to prevent the taint of Chaos spreading/A rebellion spreading.
Both are murders but the Night Lords make their victims gak their collective pants before they gouge their eyes out and rape/mutilate them, While the Imperium surgically erases a planet.
Night Lords are way, Way, Wayyyyyyyyyy worse and as farthest as you can get from any semblance of being "Redeemable" bro.
Ailaros wrote:In any case, if the night lords butcher an entire planet, and then the imperium exterminatus' a planet, and then solves a slave revolt problem by killing all the slaves, then yes, for that duration, night lords would be better. They would be redeemed, if not absolutely, then relatively when compared to the imperium in this case.
No? I mean, let's look at the context of the situations.
In the former, the NL butcher a planet for the lulz, basically. They have no overarching tactical goal or plan here. They butcher the planet because they want to, because they're here for plunder, because it entertains them, whatever. The NL warbands are not involved in any greater mission or task.
The Imperium will commit Exterminatus on a planet when it is judged entirely lost, without hope for rescue. Maybe it's an entirely Ork-held world. Maybe there's a Hive Fleet 8 hours from arrival. Maybe a Chaos Cult opened a stable Warp Rift and daemons are flooding out in the millions. Whatever. There is a decided tactical reason to destroy that planet. It is also not something that "just happens". The Inquisition is involved, and takes a bit of doing to get the right vessels lined up to be there, with the right ordnance, etc. This is not something that happens on a whim.
Slave revolt. Guess what? The Imperium isn't a democracy, it's a totalitarian state. Rebel against the rightful rulers of the planet, expect to get killed... though your deaths will not come at the hands of the "Imperium", but at the hands of the Planetary Governor and whatever military assets they can call in, which may include PDF, Arbites, and similar forces, as it threatens the world's tithe to the Administratum.
If the slave rebellion can succeed fast enough, replace the planetary rulers fast enough, and not miss making their tithe-grade, the Imperium.... that is, the Adepta Terra, the Administratum, doesn't care. It's a local matter, and far beyond their ability to care about it.
Of course, if that slave rebellion is accepting Traitor or Xenos help, then they are, indeed, Heretics and should all be dead, because now they've gotten the Inquisition involved. Let that be a lesson to the rest of you.
Khonsu wrote:Well no, Since the Night Lords are probably motivated by being psychotic killers/Batman-esque murderers and the Imperium being motivated in order to prevent the taint of Chaos spreading/A rebellion spreading.
So, the ends justify the means?
Khonsu wrote:Both are murders but the Night Lords make their victims gak their collective pants before they gouge their eyes out and rape/mutilate them, While the Imperium surgically erases a planet.
So, the means justify the ends?
There's not a great deal of ethical ground to stand on, here. Comparing one mass-murdering group of freedom-loving superhumans to another mass-murdering group of order-loving superhumans... well...
By this point, we're not talking about if there are redeeming qualities to night lords as much as we are talking about redeeming qualities of the Imperium.
Khonsu wrote:Well no, Since the Night Lords are probably motivated by being psychotic killers/Batman-esque murderers and the Imperium being motivated in order to prevent the taint of Chaos spreading/A rebellion spreading.
So, the ends justify the means?
Khonsu wrote:Both are murders but the Night Lords make their victims gak their collective pants before they gouge their eyes out and rape/mutilate them, While the Imperium surgically erases a planet.
So, the means justify the ends?
There's not a great deal of ethical ground to stand on, here. Comparing one mass-murdering group of freedom-loving superhumans to another mass-murdering group of order-loving superhumans... well...
By this point, we're not talking about if there are redeeming qualities to night lords as much as we are talking about redeeming qualities of the Imperium.
He's comparing the reasons why these mass murders happen.
The Night Lords do this for fun, the Imperium out of necessity.
Khonsu wrote:Well no, Since the Night Lords are probably motivated by being psychotic killers/Batman-esque murderers and the Imperium being motivated in order to prevent the taint of Chaos spreading/A rebellion spreading.
So, the ends justify the means?
Khonsu wrote:Both are murders but the Night Lords make their victims gak their collective pants before they gouge their eyes out and rape/mutilate them, While the Imperium surgically erases a planet.
So, the means justify the ends?
There's not a great deal of ethical ground to stand on, here. Comparing one mass-murdering group of freedom-loving superhumans to another mass-murdering group of order-loving superhumans... well...
By this point, we're not talking about if there are redeeming qualities to night lords as much as we are talking about redeeming qualities of the Imperium.
Dude let's ignore most of what I wrote like you did, the Imperium still comes out on top.
Both ways the planet is dead correct?
Atleast you do not get cleaved in half infront of your family before you die.
I'm sure that brings a great deal of comfort to people as they watch their children being slaughtered...
It's certainly better than watching your children get flayed alive, get made into a new coat, and then watching them get staked on your flatscreen tv, knowing you're next.
Whether or not the ends justify the means, at least the Imperium HAS ends.
Maybe you're of the belief that the Imperium's ends dont justify the means. Maybe you don't care that those people who watched their children getting slaughtered was done so that Chaos wouldn't envelop more planets (leading to things a lot worse than just children getting slaughtered).
That doesn't change the fact that the Imperium at least TRIES to have an end in the first place.
So let's say the ends don't justify the means. The Imperium still comes out on top because they're at least sincerely trying to have something that justifies it in the first place, even if they failed to get that justification, The Night Lords meanwhile are doing it just for the hell of it. In a world where I'm forced to choose between an evil person TRYING to be moral and TRYING to have a good moral reason for what they're doing (even if failing), and a person who's just evil and committing evil for the hell of it, I'd say the former has the higher moral ground (even if both are evil)
(of course, my own personal belief is that, yes, given the circumstances, the Imperium's ends do justify the means sometimes. But again, even if they didn't, the Imperium still comes off as better than the Night Lords because they're at least TRYING to be good)
(as an aside, another reason "not a hypocrite" isn't a redeeming factor for the Nightlords is because they aren't even TRYING in the first place. It's as easy for a Nightlord to not be a hypocrite as it is for a friggin' rock to not be a hypocrite, because any idiot and jackass can not be a hypocrite when they aren't even trying to have any morals in the first place)
There's also the fact that unlike the Night Lords, the Imperium actually does do good things some times. Ordos Hospitalers actually run charity hospitals, Space Marines sometimes rescue women and children in novels even when it's inconvenient for them, and in some places, Imperial servants actually receive paychecks and are gainfully employed. Good luck finding Night Warriors running charity institutes, rescuing women and children they don't know unless it's to enslave them, and relying on any work force that isn't slavery. Good luck finding them doing anything morally positive at all to anyone outside their monkey sphere (and, in most cases, even within it). Which is why they aren't redeemable.
Even Kurse hated his own legion, for crying out loud. And he did so for a reason. There was nothing good about them for the most part.
Ailaros wrote:In any case, if the night lords butcher an entire planet, and then the imperium exterminatus' a planet, and then solves a slave revolt problem by killing all the slaves, then yes, for that duration, night lords would be better. They would be redeemed, if not absolutely, then relatively when compared to the imperium in this case.
No? I mean, let's look at the context of the situations.
In the former, the NL butcher a planet for the lulz, basically. They have no overarching tactical goal or plan here. They butcher the planet because they want to, because they're here for plunder, because it entertains them, whatever. The NL warbands are not involved in any greater mission or task.
The Imperium will commit Exterminatus on a planet when it is judged entirely lost, without hope for rescue. Maybe it's an entirely Ork-held world. Maybe there's a Hive Fleet 8 hours from arrival. Maybe a Chaos Cult opened a stable Warp Rift and daemons are flooding out in the millions. Whatever. There is a decided tactical reason to destroy that planet. It is also not something that "just happens". The Inquisition is involved, and takes a bit of doing to get the right vessels lined up to be there, with the right ordnance, etc. This is not something that happens on a whim.
Two points.
1) The original instance where the Night Lords butchered a world without the Imperium's orders, it was Nostramo. Curze thought that the planet was beyond redeeming, so he butchered everyone on HIS CHAPTER'S RECRUITING WORLD to save the Legion from being filled with... people from Nostramo (Nostamoians?).
2) Re-read about the Badab War. While some parts of the Imperium do horrible things when they have to, some parts do horrible things because they can. Example: Carcharodons Astra. They *could* have attempted to hunt down the Mantis Warriors. Instead, they butchered civilians so that the Mantis Warriors would come to them... and they did it in such an epic fashion that the Fire Hawks quit the war... after fighting on the *same* side as the Sharks.
Then, faced with the task of disabling the defenses of Badab, the Sharks cooked off the planet's reactors, killing millions of loyalists, Space Marines included (I can see Tyberos telling jokes about "How many Star Phantoms does it take to escape a dying world?"). Why? Lulz.
Heck- Carcharodons fight about like you'd expect loyalist Night Lords to fight... terror, shock and awe, killing innocents whenever they can get away with it.
Even Kurse hated his own legion, for crying out loud. And he did so for a reason. There was nothing good about them for the most part.
Hey, I mentioned in my OP that if you think the Night Lords have no redeeming qualities, that's fine, but this thread is not for that.
I just want to collect the good traits about the Night Lords, whatever they may be. I know the Night Lords are pretty bad, and I anticipated people to assert that they are almost wholly bad. So I deliberately mentioned it in my OP, yet people still continue to assert...
Ailaros wrote:In any case, if the night lords butcher an entire planet, and then the imperium exterminatus' a planet, and then solves a slave revolt problem by killing all the slaves, then yes, for that duration, night lords would be better. They would be redeemed, if not absolutely, then relatively when compared to the imperium in this case.
No? I mean, let's look at the context of the situations.
In the former, the NL butcher a planet for the lulz, basically. They have no overarching tactical goal or plan here. They butcher the planet because they want to, because they're here for plunder, because it entertains them, whatever. The NL warbands are not involved in any greater mission or task.
The Imperium will commit Exterminatus on a planet when it is judged entirely lost, without hope for rescue. Maybe it's an entirely Ork-held world. Maybe there's a Hive Fleet 8 hours from arrival. Maybe a Chaos Cult opened a stable Warp Rift and daemons are flooding out in the millions. Whatever. There is a decided tactical reason to destroy that planet. It is also not something that "just happens". The Inquisition is involved, and takes a bit of doing to get the right vessels lined up to be there, with the right ordnance, etc. This is not something that happens on a whim.
Two points.
1) The original instance where the Night Lords butchered a world without the Imperium's orders, it was Nostramo. Curze thought that the planet was beyond redeeming, so he butchered everyone on HIS CHAPTER'S RECRUITING WORLD to save the Legion from being filled with... people from Nostramo (Nostamoians?).
2) Re-read about the Badab War. While some parts of the Imperium do horrible things when they have to, some parts do horrible things because they can. Example: Carcharodons Astra. They *could* have attempted to hunt down the Mantis Warriors. Instead, they butchered civilians so that the Mantis Warriors would come to them... and they did it in such an epic fashion that the Fire Hawks quit the war... after fighting on the *same* side as the Sharks.
Then, faced with the task of disabling the defenses of Badab, the Sharks cooked off the planet's reactors, killing millions of loyalists, Space Marines included (I can see Tyberos telling jokes about "How many Star Phantoms does it take to escape a dying world?"). Why? Lulz.
Heck- Carcharodons fight about like you'd expect loyalist Night Lords to fight... terror, shock and awe, killing innocents whenever they can get away with it.
We're not Comparing the NL with the Carcharodons since they're an exception to the rule, You could've just as well put the Salamanders instead.
The Greater Imperium would not condone such actions, Let alone the vast majority of Astartes chapters.
2) Re-read about the Badab War. While some parts of the Imperium do horrible things when they have to, some parts do horrible things because they can. Example: Carcharodons Astra. They *could* have attempted to hunt down the Mantis Warriors. Instead, they butchered civilians so that the Mantis Warriors would come to them... and they did it in such an epic fashion that the Fire Hawks quit the war... after fighting on the *same* side as the Sharks.
So... you''ve pointed out that the Imperium has arguably evil individuals (the Carcharodons) while in the same paragraph also pointing out it has GOOD members (The Fire Hawks)
....what was your point again?
Just because the Imperium has evil things in it doesn't change the fact that it has good things in it like the Fire Hawks (IE, redeeming features for the Imperium as a whole). The same can't be said for the Night Lords, who don't really have any substantial good things whatsoever.
(it's notable that it's not just the Fire Hawks that dislike the Carcharodons, either. The Carcharodon's table top rules make them desperate allies with all other Imperial factions for a reason)
TiamatRoar wrote: Good luck finding Night Warriors running charity institutes, rescuing women and children they don't know unless it's to enslave them, and relying on any work force that isn't slavery. Good luck finding them doing anything morally positive at all to anyone outside their monkey sphere (and, in most cases, even within it). Which is why they aren't redeemable.
Spoiler:
Malcharion's last act is saving the life of some random legion serf.
Why would Night Lords rescue women and children they don't know? If they aren't legion serfs then they are most likely Imperials and therefore the enemy. Do you see Salamanders rescuing "innocent" Night Lord serfs? Most of the "innocent" victims of the Night Lords' atrocities are enemy civilians. And even then, an Imperial civilian captured by the Night Lords would be much more likely to survive if they were useful (albeit in slavery) than a Night Lord serf captured by the Imperium who would most likely be killed outright.
TiamatRoar wrote: Good luck finding Night Warriors running charity institutes, rescuing women and children they don't know unless it's to enslave them, and relying on any work force that isn't slavery. Good luck finding them doing anything morally positive at all to anyone outside their monkey sphere (and, in most cases, even within it). Which is why they aren't redeemable.
Spoiler:
Malcharion's last act is saving the life of some random legion serf.
Why would Night Lords rescue women and children they don't know? If they aren't legion serfs then they are most likely Imperials and therefore the enemy. Do you see Salamanders rescuing "innocent" Night Lord serfs? Most of the "innocent" victims of the Night Lords' atrocities are enemy civilians. And even then, an Imperial civilian captured by the Night Lords would be much more likely to survive if they were useful (albeit in slavery) than a Night Lord serf captured by the Imperium who would most likely be killed outright.
That's why I said "outside their monkey sphere". Pretty sure Night Lords would be just as uncaring to Chaos civilians too, anyways (for what constitutes a civilian in a Chaos society), if BL/GW actually ever bothered to show Chaos civilian life.
Harriticus wrote: If you try to apply NL to real-world morality, they have no redeeming qualities and are genocidal maniacs.
However in the fictional universe of 40k, the fact they're not slaves of the dark gods is pretty good.
Necron, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and Orks (unless you count Gork and Mork as dark, and even then they're very hands-off sorts of gods) aren't slaves of the Dark Gods either.
And whether or not the Night Lords are slaves of the dark gods is debateable. They might simply be slaves and not realize it.
Just because the Imperium has evil things in it doesn't change the fact that it has good things in it like the Fire Hawks (IE, redeeming features for the Imperium as a whole). The same can't be said for the Night Lords, who don't really have any substantial good things whatsoever.
How about, "They don't worship an atheist's corpse."
TiamatRoar wrote: Good luck finding Night Warriors running charity institutes, rescuing women and children they don't know unless it's to enslave them, and relying on any work force that isn't slavery. Good luck finding them doing anything morally positive at all to anyone outside their monkey sphere (and, in most cases, even within it). Which is why they aren't redeemable.
Spoiler:
Malcharion's last act is saving the life of some random legion serf.
Why would Night Lords rescue women and children they don't know? If they aren't legion serfs then they are most likely Imperials and therefore the enemy. Do you see Salamanders rescuing "innocent" Night Lord serfs? Most of the "innocent" victims of the Night Lords' atrocities are enemy civilians. And even then, an Imperial civilian captured by the Night Lords would be much more likely to survive if they were useful (albeit in slavery) than a Night Lord serf captured by the Imperium who would most likely be killed outright.
That's why I said "outside their monkey sphere". Pretty sure Night Lords would be just as uncaring to Chaos civilians too, anyways (for what constitutes a civilian in a Chaos society), if BL/GW actually ever bothered to show Chaos civilian life.
What are "Chaos civilians"? Unlike the Imperium, Chaos is not a monolithic entity. Why would a Night Lord care about the welfare of a Black Legion serf? Even the Night Lords themselves are divided. A Night Lord serf from an enemy Night Lord warband could be as much an enemy as an Imperial civilian.
Do the Night Lord warbands treat their own serfs well? Well, it depends on the status/skill/usefulness of the serf, but for the most part not really, no. But they don't go around committing wholesale genocide on their own crew. My point is you can't compare the atrocities the Night Lords commit against their enemies with the atrocities the Imperium commits against its own people. Apples to oranges. A valid comparison would be how each faction treats its enemies and how each treats its own.
Just because the Imperium has evil things in it doesn't change the fact that it has good things in it like the Fire Hawks (IE, redeeming features for the Imperium as a whole). The same can't be said for the Night Lords, who don't really have any substantial good things whatsoever.
How about, "They don't worship an atheist's corpse."
You mean a Giant atheist, Possibly the galaxy's most powerful psyker ever that literally conjures Flaming Space Marines and Is guiding a humongous Galaxy spanning Space Empire and guiding every goddamn space ship in that while being half-dead?
There is no alternative to the Emperor anyways, And we all know the drawbacks so you don't have to mention them.
Besides Space marines do not worship the Emperor, And while the Night Lords are call edgy and cool and supposedly do not worship the Chaos gods(Many do as evidenced by Daemon Princes and the like) They are tools in their hands just as much as any traitor Legion.
I just want to collect the good traits about the Night Lords, whatever they may be.
They don't have any.
And whether or not the Night Lords are slaves of the dark gods is debateable. They might simply be slaves and not realize it.
Bingo.
Do they take pleasure in their nightmarish atrocities? Yes. Do they shed blood? Oh, gods, yes. Do they enact change? Indeed! Do they invoke despair in those who witness the remains of their handiwork? Without question.
While they may not go for the whole pomp and circumstance of Chaos Worship, they are most certainly pawns of the Ruinous Powers.
There's loads. They did what they thought was right (war through absolute terror) to bring systems into Compliance and get censured for it. Bombs for freedom or somesuch. Their Primarch knew what was going to happen, as mentioned previously, and was driven insane even though the Emperor maybe could've stopped it.
Just because the Imperium has evil things in it doesn't change the fact that it has good things in it like the Fire Hawks (IE, redeeming features for the Imperium as a whole). The same can't be said for the Night Lords, who don't really have any substantial good things whatsoever.
How about, "They don't worship an atheist's corpse."
Necrons, Tyrannids, Dark Eldar, Orks, rocks, and dirt don't worship the Emperor either.
Something's wrong when the only "redeeming features" people can think of are a lack of other features.
Do the Night Lord warbands treat their own serfs well? Well, it depends on the status/skill/usefulness of the serf, but for the most part not really, no. But they don't go around committing wholesale genocide on their own crew. My point is you can't compare the atrocities the Night Lords commit against their enemies with the atrocities the Imperium commits against its own people. Apples to oranges. A valid comparison would be how each faction treats its enemies and how each treats its own.
Alright, I guess you could say "One redeeming feature of the Night Lords is that SOME of them treat their serfs well."
Given that's not a trait for the majority of night lords, or a trait associated with the Night Lord's gene seed or so in general (but instead is something up to only a few select individuals), I get the feeling that's not what the original poster is looking for.
Khonsu wrote:Well no, Since the Night Lords are probably motivated by being psychotic killers/Batman-esque murderers and the Imperium being motivated in order to prevent the taint of Chaos spreading/A rebellion spreading.
So, the ends justify the means?
Khonsu wrote:Both are murders but the Night Lords make their victims gak their collective pants before they gouge their eyes out and rape/mutilate them, While the Imperium surgically erases a planet.
So, the means justify the ends?
There's not a great deal of ethical ground to stand on, here. Comparing one mass-murdering group of freedom-loving superhumans to another mass-murdering group of order-loving superhumans... well...
By this point, we're not talking about if there are redeeming qualities to night lords as much as we are talking about redeeming qualities of the Imperium.
He's comparing the reasons why these mass murders happen.
The Night Lords do this for fun, the Imperium out of necessity.
Who says the Night lords do it for fun? They do it to break order and ensure submission. They brutalize a planet to make the next 10 easier for them to conquer.
The imperium brutalizes a planet to keep order and ensure submission.
Both use for, organized violence, to achieve their goals.
And whether or not the Night Lords are slaves of the dark gods is debateable. They might simply be slaves and not realize it.
Bingo.
Do they take pleasure in their nightmarish atrocities? Yes. Do they shed blood? Oh, gods, yes. Do they enact change? Indeed! Do they invoke despair in those who witness the remains of their handiwork? Without question.
While they may not go for the whole pomp and circumstance of Chaos Worship, they are most certainly pawns of the Ruinous Powers.
With that you could put a sizeable proportion of the IoM's armed forces in the "pawns of the ruinous powers" category as well.
I'm not sure where this fact is from, if anyone has a source, feel free to add.
Konrad Curze, after growing up among and observing the people of Nostramo decided, as was his predilection to, the best method to change the exploitative and murderously oppressive regime that was in place, was to take the lynchpin member of such an organization, crush him to a pulp, flay his flesh from his bones and string him up in plain view where all could see what would become of them should they follow the path of corruption. He left the soldiers, the footmen, the laborers of such a system alone. The people just following orders were let live but they were given an example of what would happen to them should they continue what they were doing without question. Did he scare them? Yes, that was his purpose to scare them out of their blind obedience. But he didn't butcher them or force them to change by application of torture. He gave them a choice. Be better, or end up like this man. And he repeated this example on those that would not change to drive home the point.
This I think is a noble goal. He is the definition of a revolutionary. Curze inspires those on bottom to rise up and make something of themselves by showing that cretins and cheats and liars and rapists and murderers all get their just desserts.
This is their redeeming quality as a legion in its inception. To scare the average citizen into choosing the right path by display of punishment for those that do wrong. It is much like how our country's prison system is built today (except that it lacks the capitalist profit scheme and protestant ethical concerns which I believe are both just fetters on society)
The problem that develops in the legion is that which develops in Curze himself. Not that he craves power through terror, not even that he becomes addicted to soaking in the horror and anguish of others (as Curze doesn't really develop these traits, he simply gives up because his foresight allows him to see where such a path leads as regular Night Lords lack) but that he becomes blind to righteousness and corruption. He sees all as criminals as evidenced by his murdering of those that have done no wrong, almost randomly, to keep his citizens in line as his city/planet devolves into chaos on its own. He struggles to tighten his grasp on his people but more and more slip through his fingers. A reign of terror will never last because people adapt to fear and learn from their betters to use it as a tool themselves, to control other people and thus, when Nostramo is finally cleansed, it is the same as it was when Konrad Curze first made his appearance.
It is this that drove the Night Lords to insanity, excess, bloodlust or despair, into the arms of Chaos more than anything else. That all people became targets to them. They saw corruption everywhere (and possibly rightly so) and took rather to trying to destroy entire planets to try and pacify or inspire the greater Imperium but saw no change. Only more corruption. The development of terror as an end rather than a means or a tool and the subsequent bathing in the screams of a dying planet are merely symptoms of this collapsed dichotomy that plagues the Night Lords.
Curze is actually quite similar to Che, come to think of it.
A revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate.
To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary … These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution!
Crazy with fury I will stain my rifle red while slaughtering any enemy that falls in my hands! My nostrils dilate while savoring the acrid odor of gunpowder and blood. With the deaths of my enemies I prepare my being for the sacred fight and join the triumphant proletariat with a bestial howl!
BlaxicanX wrote: Nah. Tell that to all the Primarchs who grew up on gak-holes and didn't become psychotic monsters.
With the possible exception of Vulkan, they're all psychotic monsters. And even Vulkan was a bit nuts and did some pretty horrible things... he just had the grace to feel bad about it afterwards.
I just want to collect the good traits about the Night Lords, whatever they may be.
They don't have any.
Wow, you replied to my post, yet ignored the rest of the stuff in it.
I've already said, if you (or anyone else) don't believe they have any good traits, there's no need to mention it. Let those who believe they have say their piece. No point asserting that they don't have any since the purpose of this thread is not to debate that.
If their wasn't something relatable the books wouldn't sell.
then your psychotic
Adhom attacks don't stick.
Both are murders but the Night Lords make their victims gak their collective pants before they gouge their eyes out and rape/mutilate them, While the Imperium surgically erases a planet.
What about the whole achrophlagalent thing. Torturing captives to save their souls or enslaving and sterilizing the entire population of Armageddon. These actions are as cruel as they are unnecessary.
Why would a Night Lord care about the welfare of a Black Legion serf?
Khai-zan Uprisings (968.M41) - Led by Night Lords Chaos Space Marines, Traitor Planetary Defence Forces and numerous uprisings by Chaos Cultists, an attack is launched during a public holiday on the Imperial Agri-world of Khai-Zan, unleashing the Khai-Zan Uprisings. With over half of the Planetary Defence Force on leave, the beleagured planet soon finds itself beset on all sides by the Forces of Chaos. The cultists utilize summoned daemons but, due to the distance of Khai-Zan from the Eye of Terror and a lack of devotion from the Night Lords, the actual number of summoned daemons is very small. The Night Lords' Chaos Champion Gorsameth leads his troops in a clash against the men of the 122nd Cadian Shock Troopers, under Captain Fane. The Night Lords Chaos Sorcerer Asuramandos uses Warp magicks to redirect and mis-deploy the defenders, causing them to be overrun in the ensuing battle. Captain Fane as well as his entire company die in defence of an Adeptus Arbites Precinct House. The stranglehold of Chaos over Khai-zan is finally broken by the arrival of the Astartes of the Imperial Fists. Every Traitor is slain to a man.
What about the whole achrophlagalent thing. Torturing captives to save their souls or enslaving and sterilizing the entire population of Armageddon. These actions are as cruel as they are unnecessary.
Pain is Faith entering the body.
The population of Armageddon had been witnesses to a Daemonic Incursion that featured a Daemon Primarch. Of course they had to be exterminated! That kind of knowledge *cannot* be allowed to spread. Sure, it's gakky, but it is the absolute best thing that can be done, given the circumstances.
They DID accomplish compliance during the Great Crusade.
One of my favorite bits is how Planetary Governors would execute their own populations criminals and heretics at mere word that the VIII were in their sector.
One of my favorite bits is how Planetary Governors would execute their own populations criminals and heretics at mere word that the VIII were in their sector.
It may not have been pretty, but it worked.
Everyone achieved compliance during the Great Crusade, Even the Word Bearers.
Night lords fight against the imperium because it's corrupt and brutal and awful in every way, and once they wake up all the sheeple they can restore order and liberty. What redeems them is that they epitomise the civil liberty aspect of chaos. They're still chaos, though, because they're donkey-caves about it. They're the occupy movement with guns, and, like other terrorist organizations like, formerly, ETA or the IRA, their fundamental disrespect for people they consider stupider or worse than them permits them to commit violence that is arguably against the entire point of what they're trying to achieve in the first place. Well-meaning, but flawed. That's really chaos in a nutshell.
The NL represent, more than civil liberties, unfettered personal freedom... and why that's such a terrible thing. They are, by their very nature, terrorists to such extremes that we would probably need to invent a new word, like "ultra-megaterrorism" or "hyper-pantsgakking-terrorism" to describe their combat doctrine.
There's nothing redeeming about this Legion. They aren't meant to be redeemable. They're monsters in super-human guises.
They're kind of like ISIS.
No, that's the Word Bearers.
ISIS is a brutal combination of the Word Bearers and Night Lords. They're even beheading infants now.
That's even more grimdark than what 40k has to offer.
One of my favorite bits is how Planetary Governors would execute their own populations criminals and heretics at mere word that the VIII were in their sector.
It may not have been pretty, but it worked.
Everyone achieved compliance during the Great Crusade, Even the Word Bearers.
"Even" the Word Bearers? Uhh.. I thought the WB made the most loyal worlds?
I'm not sure about the "most" loyal, but the Word Bearers were certainly extremely effective in ensuring that the worlds they conquered were loyal to the Imperium.
Perhaps not the most efficient use of their time (which was, in the end, the Emperor's actual problem), but there it is.
Psienesis wrote: I'm not sure about the "most" loyal, but the Word Bearers were certainly extremely effective in ensuring that the worlds they conquered were loyal to the Imperium.
Perhaps not the most efficient use of their time (which was, in the end, the Emperor's actual problem), but there it is.
ISIS is a brutal combination of the Word Bearers and Night Lords. They're even beheading infants now.
The word bearers built things. They built cities, hospitals, roads, monuments and temples. They built them all in such a way to promote religious devotion, but they did none the less build things. The taught the population and created a rigid order in the social fabric of the words the conqured. Again it was a social order that deified the emperor, but they none the less educated people and created a stable society.
The Word Bearers are NOT ISIS/ISIL/IS who much around and destroy things.
One of my favorite bits is how Planetary Governors would execute their own populations criminals and heretics at mere word that the VIII were in their sector.
It may not have been pretty, but it worked.
Everyone achieved compliance during the Great Crusade, Even the Word Bearers.
"Even" the Word Bearers? Uhh.. I thought the WB made the most loyal worlds?
But until Monarchia they've made the smallest number of worlds compliant, You'd agree.
Psienesis wrote: I'm not sure about the "most" loyal, but the Word Bearers were certainly extremely effective in ensuring that the worlds they conquered were loyal to the Imperium.
Perhaps not the most efficient use of their time (which was, in the end, the Emperor's actual problem), but there it is.
ISIS is a brutal combination of the Word Bearers and Night Lords. They're even beheading infants now.
The word bearers built things. They built cities, hospitals, roads, monuments and temples. They built them all in such a way to promote religious devotion, but they did none the less build things. The taught the population and created a rigid order in the social fabric of the words the conqured. Again it was a social order that deified the emperor, but they none the less educated people and created a stable society.
The Word Bearers are NOT ISIS/ISIL/IS who much around and destroy things.
Better read up on your Word bearers Exergy, They had specialized units that destroyed a planets culture and pantheon of Gods, And murdered every member of that world's clergy.
Better read up on your Word bearers Exergy, They had specialized units that destroyed a planets culture and pantheon of Gods, And murdered every member of that world's clergy.
That the WB selectively killed the priest caste and destroyed the centers of worship is irrelevant, because what they did then was rebuild those places with temples dedicated to the Emperor of Mankind, filled with the zealously faithful, often members of the Legion itself, to convert the populace.
This worked, and worked extremely well, it was just very time-consuming. The Emperor would rather they kill every man, woman and child that resisted.
Psienesis wrote: he Emperor would rather they kill every man, woman and child that resisted.
Did the Emperor ever give such orders? When did he do that, and under what circumstances?
This was the whole deal with the destruction of Monarchia. The Emperor did not really give much of a feth that they were worshipping him, what he gave a feth about was the time they were taking in building all the temples and monuments and the time spent in converting the populaces of these worlds. The Emperor's main beef was that he had sent the Word Bearers out to be conquerers and soldiers, not missionaries; the real problem was that they were wasting time at being the latter, rather than the former.
If the Emperor actually cared about the religious aspect of it (rather than that simply being symptomatic) then it is more than likely he would have taken pains to stamp out the veneration of him that was happening on Terra, all around him, while he was there. He didn't. The Word Bearers could have been wasting time with secular public works projects, it didn't matter to the Emperor. All that mattered was that the Word Bearers were not advancing as swiftly as he would like.
Psienesis wrote: This was the whole deal with the destruction of Monarchia. The Emperor did not really give much of a feth that they were worshipping him, what he gave a feth about was the time they were taking in building all the temples and monuments and the time spent in converting the populaces of these worlds. The Emperor's main beef was that he had sent the Word Bearers out to be conquerers and soldiers, not missionaries; the real problem was that they were wasting time at being the latter, rather than the former.
If the Emperor actually cared about the religious aspect of it (rather than that simply being symptomatic) then it is more than likely he would have taken pains to stamp out the veneration of him that was happening on Terra, all around him, while he was there. He didn't. The Word Bearers could have been wasting time with secular public works projects, it didn't matter to the Emperor. All that mattered was that the Word Bearers were not advancing as swiftly as he would like.
I’m afraid you have me misunderstood. I’m asking if there was at any point under the Great Crusade, where the Emperor said “these feewls are refusing to surrender themselves to the Imperium.
Therefor every single man, woman and child needs to be killed.”
Monarchia is different because its destruction served as punishment for Lorgar, due to his slow pace doing the crusade.
The people of Monarchia were already compliant with the Imperium.
I’m afraid you have me misunderstood. I’m asking if there was at any point under the Great Crusade, where the Emperor said “these feewls are refusing to surrender themselves to the Imperium.
Therefor every single man, woman and child needs to be killed.”
Any time He directed the World Eaters to take a planet.
I’m afraid you have me misunderstood. I’m asking if there was at any point under the Great Crusade, where the Emperor said “these feewls are refusing to surrender themselves to the Imperium.
Therefor every single man, woman and child needs to be killed.”
Any time He directed the World Eaters to take a planet.
So you do not have a quote, page, or spoiler for me? Okay then.
No its not, its no different from Cyrion of the Night Lords laughing from hearing the fears of his victims, its sadism.
The population of Armageddon had been witnesses to a Daemonic Incursion that featured a Daemon Primarch. Of course they had to be exterminated! That kind of knowledge *cannot* be allowed to spread. Sure, it's gakky, but it is the absolute best thing that can be done, given the circumstances.
So why not just kill them. Somehow I have the feeling that they don't even have them doing anything remotely useful, just breaking rocks or some other menial task, again sadism, the Imperium started out being sadistic for expediency then became the sadistic for the fun of it. Kinda like the Night Lords that's what Curze meant when he said "the lesson of the Legion" over and over again, proving that the Imperium was just as vile he was, only he would take responsibility for his sins while the Imperium and the Emperor wouldn't. Then again this sounds more like the redeeming qualities of Curze as opposed to the Legion he hated. I suppose the redeeming quality is their still are some Night Lords that are ruthless to win as opposed to just getting some weird sexual thrill from murdering people.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
*cannot*
Why because people might realize that their living a lie. The Imperium damns itself with ignorance, that's the flaw since the great crusade.
The Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, anything originating from the progenium schools such as Commissars take second place to the dark elder on the evil scale.
No its not, its no different from Cyrion of the Night Lords laughing from hearing the fears of his victims, its sadism.
Sadism is a sexual fetish whereby sexual gratification is obtained through the infliction of pain on another. While there may be some sadists within the religious organizations of the Imperium, that is not the point or purpose of the Penitent Engine.
So why not just kill them. Somehow I have the feeling that they don't even have them doing anything remotely useful, just breaking rocks or some other menial task, again sadism, the Imperium started out being sadistic for expediency then became the sadistic for the fun of it.
Those broken rocks would later be turned into concrete for the re-construction of Armageddon.
Why because people might realize that their living a lie. The Imperium damns itself with ignorance, that's the flaw since the great crusade.
The Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, anything originating from the progenium schools such as Commissars take second place to the dark elder on the evil scale.
Human beings generally prefer living lives of ignorance. In the setting of 40K, that's actually not a bad choice, because the knowledge of things in the larger galaxy
So you do not have a quote, page, or spoiler for me? Okay then.
Do the World Eaters recognize combatants vs non-combatants on the planets they deploy to, pre-Heresy? Yes or No?
The Emperor sent the World Eaters to pacify planets during the Great Crusade, Yes or No?
Spoiler: The answer to Question 1 is "no", the answer to Question 2 is "Yes". The Emperor knew what Angron was up to... that was entirely why He put him in charge of the Legion.
Simple inference would tell you that the Emperor knew what He was consigning a planet to that He sent the World Eaters to capture. This is why so many of them simply surrendered once they learned the World Eaters were coming.
Psienesis wrote: Do the World Eaters recognize combatants vs non-combatants on the planets they deploy to, pre-Heresy? Yes or No?
The Emperor sent the World Eaters to pacify planets during the Great Crusade, Yes or No?
Spoiler: The answer to Question 1 is "no", the answer to Question 2 is "Yes". The Emperor knew what Angron was up to... that was entirely why He put him in charge of the Legion.
Simple inference would tell you that the Emperor knew what He was consigning a planet to that He sent the World Eaters to capture. This is why so many of them simply surrendered once they learned the World Eaters were coming.
I haven’t read any source material depicting the World Eaters committing genocide against civilians prior to Horus corruption, and even if they did, nowhere is the Emperor shown to have sanctioned such acts of brutality. Now, should written material that proves your point true exist, and you could point me to it, then that would be grand indeed. As of now this is merely your own interpretation of the fluff.
What idiotic superstition everyone's soul gets absorbed into the warp.
Those broken rocks would later be turned into concrete for the re-construction of Armageddon.
Those broken rocks would later be turned into concrete for the re-construction of Armageddon.
No its pretty well implied that a lot of what the Imperium does is wasteful and just done as part of mindless bureaucracy.
I have to say this may be the only time I find someone's take of fiction downright disturbing. Your just to in to this stuff, maybe its just as act, larping or trolling but you come off like someone who could have run a concentration camp.
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Human beings generally prefer living lives of ignorance.
What are you basing this on, humans naturally seek knowledge.
What are you basing this on, humans naturally seek knowledge.
Watched the news lately? Humans don't seek knowledge, they seek confirmation of the beliefs they already hold.
I have to say this may be the only time I find someone's take of fiction downright disturbing. Your just to in to this stuff, maybe its just as act, larping or trolling but you come off like someone who could have run a concentration camp.
I don't judge the Imperium by my 21st century liberal standards, I judge them by the reality of the setting in which it is found, and in that reality, life is cheap, and people die for horrid reasons, because the galaxy is vast, and utterly uncaring.
The Imperium is a brutal, bloody, dogmatic dictatorship.
Warhammer 40,000 Opening Scrawl wrote:
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.
That is the Imperium. You are, no matter *who* you are, simply one of a billion billion cogs in an unimaginably vast machine that simply plods along under its own inertia. Nothing you accomplish will matter, because the galaxy is too big to care about the efforts of just one person.
Warhammer 40,000 Opening Scrawl wrote:Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
This is Warhammer 40k. Hope is the first step on the road to Disappointment. There is no happy ending, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. These are the tales of the End of Times. Humanity will not survive this, the last chapter of its existence, as it now is. It will either experience its foretold apotheosis and awaken as a psychic race, or it will be consumed by the legion of threats that surround it.
Those who fight to protect humanity do so because it is all they can do. There is no hope for an ultimate victory, simply delaying the inevitable for one more day.
To quote another fan:
Baron von EvilSatan, 1d4Chan wrote:The Imperium isn’t grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn’t survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single gak decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a gak life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die.
Watched the news lately? Humans don't seek knowledge, they seek confirmation of the beliefs they already hold.
How do you explain all the inventions made. Maybe I can't speak for humanity but I can speak for myself in saying that I don't like most things I know but I accept them.
I don't judge the Imperium by my 21st century liberal standards
Niether do I. I am not complaining that they don't have trial by jury I'm complaining that they murder and torture their own citizens for petty reasons and are destroying mankind just as well as the Necrons or Orks. Even Imperial fluff admits to the self destructiveness of the Imperium and its pointless corruption and brutality. I'm not complaining about ruthlessness i'm just saying that the ruthlessness should make more sense.
Humanity will not survive this
Then all the efforts of the Imperium are meaningless. Humanity will survive, but not with the High Lords in charge, either the Emperor will come back and rule over a much diminished Empire or Abaddon will. The reason the humanity is in such a dire straight is because of stagnation which was beginning before the Horus Heresy.
It will either experience its foretold apotheosis and awaken as a psychic race, or it will be consumed by the legion of threats that surround it.
Because individuals can rise above the masses around them.
I'm complaining that they murder and torture their own citizens for petty reasons and are destroying mankind just as well as the Necrons or Orks. Even Imperial fluff admits to the self destructiveness of the Imperium and its pointless corruption and brutality. I'm not complaining about ruthlessness i'm just saying that the ruthlessness should make more sense.
In the case of Armageddon, it does make sense. "Knowledge is power, guard it well" and "Be strong in your ignorance" being axioms of virtue in the Imperium, these people had knowledge they shouldn't have, and were no longer ignorant of things they should be.
In other words, "Men must die so that Man may endure". Those people were potential threats, because the mere knowledge of Chaos is a potential gateway to Corruption (which is why the Inquisition watches the Inquisition, and often employs specialists to do the actual reading of grimoires and such, like the Sisters Dialoguous) and there were millions of people with the knowledge of Chaos, and an untested fortitude of will to resist its temptations.
Better for everyone to exterminate them.
Then all the efforts of the Imperium are meaningless.
Because individuals can rise above the masses around them.
You know my point is right your just being stubborn, if humanity wanted ignorance then their would be no reason to guard imformation in either a real of fictional universe.
these people had knowledge they shouldn't have, and were no longer ignorant of things they should be.
If the Imperium was smarter they would have used them to form a special regiment meant to follow the retreating forces of Choas in places they won't send most troops, after all why wear an unbrella if your alread wet. This was a great victory for Chaos, the Imperiums reaction has paved a way for a new heresy, the Space Wolf and friends Heresy, the Wolves have their share of friends, and when they finally turn it won't be pretty.
Yes. Welcome to the GrimDark.
Then why even purge them, why not just get blitz everyday so your too drunk to realize your being eaten by an alien.
I prefer to think that humanities future will be greater than anything anyone could imagine, as Lorgar said immortality with an eternity to unsterdand the true nature of the universe.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Emperor is dead, hail to the Warmaster.
You know my point is right your just being stubborn, if humanity wanted ignorance then their would be no reason to guard imformation in either a real of fictional universe.
Not at all. People invent answers for the questions they would rather not ponder and, over time, those answers are simply taken as fact, despite lacking any sort of proof to their veracity.
[quote[if humanity wanted ignorance then their would be no reason to guard imformation in either a real of fictional universe.
The Imperium *does* guard information. You won't find things like public libraries that contain books and data slates that are not heavily censored by the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition, for example. You will not find television shows that are not basically Imperial propaganda or religious programming.
If the Imperium was smarter they would have used them to form a special regiment meant to follow the retreating forces of Choas in places they won't send most troops, after all why wear an unbrella if your alread wet. This was a great victory for Chaos, the Imperiums reaction has paved a way for a new heresy, the Space Wolf and friends Heresy, the Wolves have their share of friends, and when they finally turn it won't be pretty.
Most of the people who were exterminated on Armageddon were civilians. Not PDF and certainly not suitable for the IG. What are you going to do with a bunch of grunt laborers, fry cooks, housewives, deadbeat-dads, office drones and children of all stripes? Throwing them at the forces of Chaos is just a more expensive way of killing them all. After all, you have to pay to feed, clothe and arm them, and then fly them from Armageddon to wherever it is you decide you're going to throw them away.
And this besides the fact that an unknown number of these people had already turned, and already possessed within their souls the seed of possession, which may eventually result in a Daemonic incursion.
Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
This was a great victory for Chaos, the Imperiums reaction has paved a way for a new heresy, the Space Wolf and friends Heresy, the Wolves have their share of friends, and when they finally turn it won't be pretty.
The Months of Shame, as the Space Wolves refer to that event, is not likely something that they will ever repeat. Sure, they "won" that engagement, but lost significant numbers of their forces as well as a good portion of their fleet assets.
Further, as Russ was loyal to the Emperor, the Wolves remain loyal to His Imperium. Who would want to be the first Space Wolf to shame the legacy of Russ?
Not that some Space Wolves have not previously fallen to Chaos and turned to the worship of the Ruinous Powers (as happened during the Badab War), but the current-era Space Wolves are presented as being made of much sterner stuff.
And while the Space Wolves have their allies, not all of your allies are going to decide to etch eight-pointed stars into their power armor, give over to the worship of the Chaos Gods, and join sides with the forces they've been fighting for 10,000 years.
I prefer to think that humanities future will be greater than anything anyone could imagine, as Lorgar said immortality with an eternity to unsterdand the true nature of the universe.
The true nature of the universe is that all things came from Chaos, and to Chaos will all things ultimately descend. "Order" is an illusion, it is simply Chaos acting in a predictable pattern. He achieved exactly what he wanted for Humanity, of course, which is why he is now a Daemon Prince, and a thrall to the Ruinous Powers. There are certainly pleasures, and terrors, beyond imagining in Chaos.
Then why even purge them, why not just get blitz everyday so your too drunk to realize your being eaten by an alien.
Why not, indeed! This is why ignorance is a virtue in the Imperium. It is because if the masses of Mankind actually had an inkling of an idea of the threats in the galaxy, they would probably off themselves in an orgiastic explosion of violence, rioting and anarchy.
This is precisely why the Imperium's population is kept in the dark about such things.
The Imperium *does* guard information. You won't find things like public libraries that contain books and data slates that are not heavily censored by the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition, for example. You will not find television shows that are not basically Imperial propaganda or religious programming.
Which shows that humans naturally seek knoledge.
The Months of Shame, as the Space Wolves
The Grey Knights call it that.
Further, as Russ was loyal to the Emperor, the Wolves remain loyal to His Imperium. Who would want to be the first Space Wolf to shame the legacy of Russ?
Not that some Space Wolves have not previously fallen to Chaos and turned to the worship of the Ruinous Powers (as happened during the Badab War), but the current-era Space Wolves are presented as being made of much sterner stuff.
And while the Space Wolves have their allies, not all of your allies are going to decide to etch eight-pointed stars into their power armor, give over to the worship of the Chaos Gods, and join sides with the forces they've been fighting for 10,000 years.
I never said they would fall to Chaos, i'm saying that a non chaotic civil war is around the corner. These guys have a shoot on sight policy for Inquisition and Ecclisiarchal ships.
what he wanted for Humanity
He wanted a union of humanity and the warp, this failed because Horus, Fulgrim, Erebus and Phaeron went their own way.
Why not, indeed! This is why ignorance is a virtue in the Imperium. It is because if the masses of Mankind actually had an inkling of an idea of the threats in the galaxy, they would probably off themselves in an orgiastic explosion of violence, rioting and anarchy.
No they would join or found an empire that had some potential of survival.
I never said they (Space Wolves) would fall to Chaos, i'm saying that a non chaotic civil war is around the corner. These guys have a shoot on sight policy for Inquisition and Ecclisiarchal ships.
Some corrections.
The end of the Months of Shame ended in a ceasefire between the Wolves and Inquisition. So while the two despise each other (except the Ordos Xenos, which IIRC in another source is stated to get along with the Space Wolves), there's no shoot-on-sight order for either of them (not that they don't end up shooting each other anyways every once in a while, but honestly probably only a little more than most Imperial departments shoot each other)
The Eccesiarchy decided to "let sleeping dogs lie" after their attempted attack on Fenris, which again would probably mean a ceasefire. The Space Wolves only shot at the Ecclesiarchy AFTER they had the audacity to try to land a ship on Fenris according to the latest Logan supplement in spite of the wolves telling them to bugger off while they were in orbit over Fenris. Before then, the wolves just shouted "Go away" a lot at them.
The one and only redeeming feature of the Night Lords, or at least Curze, is that he/they both know that he/they were monsters, but necessary monsters. The vindication of Curze was his death at the hand of the Emperor, despite the Emperor being no better then Curze. All Curze did was not sugarcoat things like the Emperor does.
But ultimately order must be maintained through lethal force- as without it there can be no order. That was the point the Night Haunter was making, as he was just a judge that ruled by martial law alone.
Their redeeming quality is the consistency of their philosophy. The imperium pretends to be honorable and virtuous, and is absolutely fascist and horrible.
The Night Lords admit to what they did and do- rather than trying to pretend.
NIght Haunter died to prove the point. It makes me wonder if the Emperor actually believed in the virtue that he was enforcing on the Night Lords. It is possible that those compromises came little by little, and Night Haunter wanted to let the Emperor know about it.
He certanly did from time to time.
While he dosen't shoot people with regular guns nowadays it's not like Batman is overly concerned by people dying from the abuse he deals out.
There are plenty of instances even in the modern movies and comics where Batman beats people up in such quantity and quality that a few are bound to have died as a result. Having some absolute moral rule against killing people just makes Batman a worse character IMO.
As of the Batman/Night Legion connection. It feels rather forced. Curze in particular has some glaring similarities to the Batman in the pacification of Nostramo but the Legion as a whole hasn't.
A redeeming quality of the NightLords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.
A redeeming quality of the NightLords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.
So, their redeemable quality is that their terrorism is justified against a more-powerful military organization, regardless of civilian casualties?
A redeeming quality of the Night Lords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.
"If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary"
The thing about the Nightlords is they don't HAVE an ultimate goal.
Yes, causing mass suicides for the sake of overall decreased deaths in pursuit of some arguably nobler cause could arguably be a redeemable trait. It kinda flies out the window if you remove the "in pursuit of a nobler cause" (and maybe replace it with "of Night Lords" right after "decreased deaths")
They aren't even doing it for the sake of Chaos. At least some other Chaos Marines could be said to be doing their baby sacrifices because they honestly believe Chaos should be the just and true masters of the galaxy and/or are the only things that can make it strong enough to survive. Night Lords, however, don't care about Chaos. All those suicides they're causing? They're doing it primarily because they enjoy it, and that's it. Their ultimate goal is "Themselves", and the only ones that would agree with THAT ultimate goal is "Themselves" as well (and, in most cases, it's more "myself" than "themselves").
A redeeming quality of the NightLords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.
So, their redeemable quality is that their terrorism is justified against a more-powerful military organization, regardless of civilian casualties?
No fair making comparisons to actual human organizations.
At which point did I make a direct comparison to an actual human organization?
The Imperium's military forces outnumber the Night Lords, yes or no?
The Night Lords, as a matter of combat doctrine, target civilian populations, yes or no?
That these scenarios are directly relatable to certain RL organizations is beyond my control... but, since 40K is a game of satirical elements, I suppose it is inevitable.
A redeeming quality of the NightLords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.
So, their redeemable quality is that their terrorism is justified against a more-powerful military organization, regardless of civilian casualties?
In Total War, civilians are actually a legitimate military target. They're the industry. If you wipe out the civilians of the enemy or scare them senseless to the point that they don't work, the enemy's economy and industry goes up in smoke. Night Lords terror tactics are actually one of the more sensible doctrines in 40k, after the memetic insanity that is the Alpha Legion.
In Total War, civilians are actually a legitimate military target. They're the industry. If you wipe out the civilians of the enemy or scare them senseless to the point that they don't work, the enemy's economy and industry goes up in smoke. Night Lords terror tactics are actually one of the more sensible doctrines in 40k, after the memetic insanity that is the Alpha Legion.
That, in no way, makes those who engage in such activities redeemable, or even forgivable. Especially because, in the current era, the Night Lords don't really stop... unless something arrives to stop them. There's no end-goal to their slaughter, no tactical value to the target.
In Total War, civilians are actually a legitimate military target. They're the industry. If you wipe out the civilians of the enemy or scare them senseless to the point that they don't work, the enemy's economy and industry goes up in smoke. Night Lords terror tactics are actually one of the more sensible doctrines in 40k, after the memetic insanity that is the Alpha Legion.
That, in no way, makes those who engage in such activities redeemable, or even forgivable. Especially because, in the current era, the Night Lords don't really stop... unless something arrives to stop them. There's no end-goal to their slaughter, no tactical value to the target.
It is, literally, for the lulz.
No, it does serve a goal. The more civilians you terrify, maim, or kill, the greater the damage to the Imperium. Although if Night Lords were truly devious, they wouldn't kill anyone. It's a far greater drain on resources if you just cripple as much of the enemy as you possibly can, as then the enemy must either supply healthcare that drains their resources or they either outright kill or leave the wounded to bleed to death, both of which would cause mass rioting in the enemy state.
A redeeming quality of the NightLords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.
So, their redeemable quality is that their terrorism is justified against a more-powerful military organization, regardless of civilian casualties?
I wouldn't say that it's justified. But it would be a redeeming quality, would it not?
The Nightlords do not have the means to target the Imperiums military forces in a "fair fight". Even attacking largely civilian targets might be too costly in the long run without using the terror tactics they do in order to diminish their strength.
Psienesis wrote:
In Total War, civilians are actually a legitimate military target. They're the industry. If you wipe out the civilians of the enemy or scare them senseless to the point that they don't work, the enemy's economy and industry goes up in smoke. Night Lords terror tactics are actually one of the more sensible doctrines in 40k, after the memetic insanity that is the Alpha Legion.
That, in no way, makes those who engage in such activities redeemable, or even forgivable. Especially because, in the current era, the Night Lords don't really stop... unless something arrives to stop them. There's no end-goal to their slaughter, no tactical value to the target.
A redeeming quality of the Night Lords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.
"If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary"
The thing about the Nightlords is they don't HAVE an ultimate goal.
Yes, causing mass suicides for the sake of overall decreased deaths in pursuit of some arguably nobler cause could arguably be a redeemable trait. It kinda flies out the window if you remove the "in pursuit of a nobler cause" (and maybe replace it with "of Night Lords" right after "decreased deaths")
They aren't even doing it for the sake of Chaos. At least some other Chaos Marines could be said to be doing their baby sacrifices because they honestly believe Chaos should be the just and true masters of the galaxy and/or are the only things that can make it strong enough to survive. Night Lords, however, don't care about Chaos. All those suicides they're causing? They're doing it primarily because they enjoy it, and that's it. Their ultimate goal is "Themselves", and the only ones that would agree with THAT ultimate goal is "Themselves" as well (and, in most cases, it's more "myself" than "themselves").
But is it really true that the NightLords have no goal other than to cause suffering for sufferings sake? They do want the imperium to fall do they not?
And even if their goal is just to care for themselves it would still be rational (if heartless) to use the terror tactics they do, in order to suffer minimal resistance while they wipe out a world in order to plunder supply and to fuel their horrific reputation (something which will help in terrorizing the next world).
But if the planetary defences commit suicide in droves and the discipline implodes due to terror of the Nightlords; any attack gets easier and the killing of civilians in horrific fashion is a part of the terror tactics.
The loss of civilians doesn't hurt the empire as a whole but each Nightlord attack is helped by their methods and reputation. Each Nightlord marine lost is a big hit to the legion or warband, as they don't have good infrastructure to replace losses.
In Total War, civilians are actually a legitimate military target. They're the industry. If you wipe out the civilians of the enemy or scare them senseless to the point that they don't work, the enemy's economy and industry goes up in smoke. Night Lords terror tactics are actually one of the more sensible doctrines in 40k, after the memetic insanity that is the Alpha Legion.
That, in no way, makes those who engage in such activities redeemable, or even forgivable. Especially because, in the current era, the Night Lords don't really stop... unless something arrives to stop them. There's no end-goal to their slaughter, no tactical value to the target.
It is, literally, for the lulz.
No, it does serve a goal. The more civilians you terrify, maim, or kill, the greater the damage to the Imperium. Although if Night Lords were truly devious, they wouldn't kill anyone. It's a far greater drain on resources if you just cripple as much of the enemy as you possibly can, as then the enemy must either supply healthcare that drains their resources or they either outright kill or leave the wounded to bleed to death, both of which would cause mass rioting in the enemy state.
Most Night Lords aren't doing it to damage the Imperium. They're doing it literally for the lulz (or, in some cases, in preparation of more lulz to come).
Zywus wrote: But if the planetary defences commit suicide in droves and the discipline implodes due to terror of the Nightlords; any attack gets easier and the killing of civilians in horrific fashion is a part of the terror tactics.
The loss of civilians doesn't hurt the empire as a whole but each Nightlord attack is helped by their methods and reputation.
Except in the imperium all information is heavily censured to the point where no one would know, who the Night Lords are. In the case of a NL raid, civilians will be told they are attacked by pirates, if they told anything at all. PDF and guardsmen will most likely be told they are fighting a renegade SM chapter.
Only top brass would have inklings about what they are dealing with and they’ll keep that info to themselves.
Zywus wrote: But if the planetary defences commit suicide in droves and the discipline implodes due to terror of the Nightlords; any attack gets easier and the killing of civilians in horrific fashion is a part of the terror tactics.
The loss of civilians doesn't hurt the empire as a whole but each Nightlord attack is helped by their methods and reputation. Each Nightlord marine lost is a big hit to the legion or warband, as they don't have good infrastructure to replace losses.
And? They have nothing redeemable about them that makes their survival a requirement.
Zywus wrote: But if the planetary defences commit suicide in droves and the discipline implodes due to terror of the Nightlords; any attack gets easier and the killing of civilians in horrific fashion is a part of the terror tactics.
The loss of civilians doesn't hurt the empire as a whole but each Nightlord attack is helped by their methods and reputation. Each Nightlord marine lost is a big hit to the legion or warband, as they don't have good infrastructure to replace losses.
And? They have nothing redeemable about them that makes their survival a requirement.
I would say that it's somewhat redeemable that they commit their atrocities ultimately in order to survive (they need to plunder resources to keep their ships and equipment running).
Could they keep themselves supplied without causing as much suffering? Probably. But they don't really have much of an option other than keep raiding the empire or retreat into the warp and give in to chaos.
Zywus wrote: But if the planetary defences commit suicide in droves and the discipline implodes due to terror of the Nightlords; any attack gets easier and the killing of civilians in horrific fashion is a part of the terror tactics.
The loss of civilians doesn't hurt the empire as a whole but each Nightlord attack is helped by their methods and reputation.
Except in the imperium all information is heavily censured to the point where no one would know, who the Night Lords are. In the case of a NL raid, civilians will be told they are attacked by pirates, if they told anything at all. PDF and guardsmen will most likely be told they are fighting a renegade SM chapter.
Only top brass would have inklings about what they are dealing with and they’ll keep that info to themselves.
That's a valid point and yea, I guess imperial censorship would make it hard too build up a murderous reputation among the general populace before any attack.
One may wonder though, whether imperial censorship is as effective as they would like it to appear.
There are billions of people on various worlds around the empire with whom the empire has little direct contact with. In the slums and underhives I imagine that tales and rumours spread quite freely.
Even so, the terror tactics is still helpful to the NightLords during an attack on world A, even if people on world B never gets to know the details.
I would say that it's somewhat redeemable that they commit their atrocities ultimately in order to survive (they need to plunder resources to keep their ships and equipment running).
Could they keep themselves supplied without causing as much suffering? Probably. But they don't really have much of an option other than keep raiding the empire or retreat into the warp and give in to chaos.
In what way is this redeemable? In what way does it not only excuse their actions, but lifts them to a higher moral ground than other Traitor Legions?
Maybe we are operating under different defenitions of the term redeemable?
I never claimed that the nigtlords were operating on a higher moral grounds than the other legions.
Assuming "redeemable" is related to "morally good" (by most standards of morality. Although even the Chaos Gods' idea of morality includes that their servants are supposed to be willing to die for them) instead of just "practical" (since being practical means jack squat for morality if you're doing it just for your own selfish reasons), another part of the whole point of being good is that you're willing to sacrifice yourself for a greater good, or even lay down and die and accept your punishment for doing something evil (down to even committing suicide to atone, going by some moral codes). That Night Lords are doing those atrocities for the sake of their own survival is the OPPOSITE of redeemable, if anything.
I would say that it's somewhat redeemable that they commit their atrocities ultimately in order to survive (they need to plunder resources to keep their ships and equipment running).
Could they keep themselves supplied without causing as much suffering? Probably. But they don't really have much of an option other than keep raiding the empire or retreat into the warp and give in to chaos.
In what way is this redeemable? In what way does it not only excuse their actions, but lifts them to a higher moral ground than other Traitor Legions?
There's a massive difference between the Night Lords being bellends because it helps them survive (though they do enjoy it in the process), and the Emperor's Children being total bellends because they literally get off on it.
I would say that it's somewhat redeemable that they commit their atrocities ultimately in order to survive (they need to plunder resources to keep their ships and equipment running).
Could they keep themselves supplied without causing as much suffering? Probably. But they don't really have much of an option other than keep raiding the empire or retreat into the warp and give in to chaos.
In what way is this redeemable? In what way does it not only excuse their actions, but lifts them to a higher moral ground than other Traitor Legions?
There's a massive difference between the Night Lords being bellends because it helps them survive (though they do enjoy it in the process), and the Children of the Emperor being total bellends because they literally get off on it.
It should also be noted that there are two different political entities in the Night Lords. Those who view fear as means to an end, and those who view as fear for the sake of fear, and are typically degenerated Raptor Cults.
This brings us back to my original question, then, "What are the ends of the Night Lords that justify the means by which they arrive at them?"
Is it survival? In that case, what is it about the Night Lords that their survival, as an organization, is so desirable to justify their atrocities?
In the case of the Imperium, their atrocities are justified because they are, truly, the last hope for humanity. The Imperium also does not do what it does out of a sense of wicked pleasure or perverse enjoyment... all the gak conditions and people living gak lives in the gakkiest conditions imaginable are the results of the absolutely best choices that could have been made at the time, given the circumstances.
So what is it about the Night Lords that the galaxy needs them to survive? Or humanity in general? Or even Chaos?
In what way is the galaxy not better off with the Night Lords entirely dead?
Lol yeah "They have to plunder supplies", The main body of the Thousand Sons being in the warp for like 8k years consecutively disproves that.
They don't need any supplies, If they were that dire for supplies they'd raid in the Eye or whatever but they probably control Demi-forgeworlds there anyways and need no supplies they're just causing Terror for the sake of it or in order to "get off" as you pointed about the Emperor's Children.
In the case of the Imperium, their atrocities are justified because they are, truly, the last hope for humanity. The Imperium also does not do what it does out of a sense of wicked pleasure or perverse enjoyment... all the gak conditions and people living gak lives in the gakkiest conditions imaginable are the results of the absolutely best choices that could have been made at the time, given the circumstances.
The Imperials like to say that but humanity might stand a better chance without the high lords of terra, the Emperor thought the stuff that the current Imperium is made of would be the death of humanity.
The Imperium also does not do what it does out of a sense of wicked pleasure or perverse enjoyment
Self mutilation nudity and just plain weird, also fluff wise everything that starts out as worship of the Emperor turns into Chaos, probably why the Emperor was creeped out by lorgar.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So what is it about the Night Lords that the galaxy needs them to survive? Or humanity in general? Or even Chaos?
The Night Lords of horrible horrible beings but if I were to say what their dong that's redeemable is that their tearing down an empire based on a lie.
Psienesis wrote: This brings us back to my original question, then, "What are the ends of the Night Lords that justify the means by which they arrive at them?"
Is it survival? In that case, what is it about the Night Lords that their survival, as an organization, is so desirable to justify their atrocities?
In the case of the Imperium, their atrocities are justified because they are, truly, the last hope for humanity. The Imperium also does not do what it does out of a sense of wicked pleasure or perverse enjoyment... all the gak conditions and people living gak lives in the gakkiest conditions imaginable are the results of the absolutely best choices that could have been made at the time, given the circumstances.
So what is it about the Night Lords that the galaxy needs them to survive? Or humanity in general? Or even Chaos?
In what way is the galaxy not better off with the Night Lords entirely dead?
Except the universe is better off with both everybody dead and nobody dead. The universe isn't effected nor gives a damn about anybody else, it isn't sapient. Now, it could be asked what the Night Lords do for the Imperium, but that would be silly and self centered of the Imperium to believe they're the center of everything and the universe revolves around them.
(Although it does revolve around each individual.)
Self mutilation nudity and just plain weird, also fluff wise everything that starts out as worship of the Emperor turns into Chaos, probably why the Emperor was creeped out by lorgar.
Ehm, the Sisters Repentia are actually based on real-world religious practices (flagellants).
I'm... not so sure what's so weird about nudity. Unless you don't ever shower or bathe. Or change clothes. In which case... that's weird. Real weird.
But in either case, such things are not a sexual fetish for the Sisters.
In the case of the Imperium, their atrocities are justified because they are, truly, the last hope for humanity. The Imperium also does not do what it does out of a sense of wicked pleasure or perverse enjoyment... all the gak conditions and people living gak lives in the gakkiest conditions imaginable are the results of the absolutely best choices that could have been made at the time, given the circumstances.
The Imperials like to say that but humanity might stand a better chance without the high lords of terra, the Emperor thought the stuff that the current Imperium is made of would be the death of humanity.
The Imperium also does not do what it does out of a sense of wicked pleasure or perverse enjoyment
Self mutilation nudity and just plain weird, also fluff wise everything that starts out as worship of the Emperor turns into Chaos, probably why the Emperor was creeped out by lorgar.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So what is it about the Night Lords that the galaxy needs them to survive? Or humanity in general? Or even Chaos?
The Night Lords of horrible horrible beings but if I were to say what their dong that's redeemable is that their tearing down an empire based on a lie.
The moment you understand there is no better alternative to the Imperium is the moment you understand the true meaning of "Grimdark" in 40k's plot.
They tear down the Imperium to replace it with a much bleaker future for humanity, They are trash.
Psienesis wrote: This brings us back to my original question, then, "What are the ends of the Night Lords that justify the means by which they arrive at them?"
Is it survival? In that case, what is it about the Night Lords that their survival, as an organization, is so desirable to justify their atrocities?
You're looking at this from.. to high up? Does that make sense. The Night Lords don't have to be crucial to the survival of the galaxy to "justify their existence", they merely have to keep existing.
Let me put this a different way.
There are people who will kill other people in rage, out of faith, for vengeance, to defend something they believe in, or even for sport. Yet these people do not make up the majority of humanity as we know it. In fact, there's only one instance in which nearly EVERY person is willing to kill.. and that is to save their own life. To protect themselves and preserve their existence. This is basically why, in ye'average post apocalypse setting, trust is the hardest thing to come across and other people are the biggest threat. Once brass tacks are down and your own life is on the line, pretty much everyone becomes a killer.
To rope this back in: You're looking at the question wrong. No race in the 40k setting can justify its survival beyond "We'd just rather not die, kthx". The Imperium (and subsequently humanity) isn't helping the galaxy are large - quite the opposite. From a purely natural perspective, humans are a blight upon the 40k galaxy because of how many planets they effectively destroy (strip-harvesting entire planets, turning others into toxic and polluted wasted lands). The only way you can 'justify' the thing the Imperium, and indeed humanity does in this setting, is if the continued existence of those who commit the acts is justification.
The same goes for the Eldar. They're not helping the galaxy out at large - they freaking created Slaanesh.
The Orks have doubtlessly stamped numerous races into extinction, and like the Imperium have a bad habit of utterly ruining the worlds they end up on.
Dark Eldar are in the same boat as Eldar, and complete bastards to boot.
Chaos is the antithesis of reality.
The Necrons.. Yeah.
Do I even need to mention Tyranids?
The Tau are the 'best' race, but again cannot justify it. They have extremely underhanded practices, and alien races they encounter are either killed or subjugated in their empire; usually some combination there of.
Basically, the only justification for the Night Lords committing the actions they do in order to keep existing is that it allows them to keep existing. A pretty strong justification, considering no other faction in the 40k setting can say any different, and existence at large would be better off without most (all) of them.
Or quite simply Moral and Existential Nihilism, the default of the universe, means the universe doesn't care about anything, nobody has a divined purpose, and it doesn't matter if anybody lives or everybody dies.
Wyzilla wrote: Or quite simply Moral and Existential Nihilism, the default of the universe, means the universe doesn't care about anything, nobody has a divined purpose, and it doesn't matter if anybody lives or everybody dies.
I'd argue that, despite not being alive, being merged with the Warp and essentially destroyed is a net loss for the universe.
Wyzilla wrote: Or quite simply Moral and Existential Nihilism, the default of the universe, means the universe doesn't care about anything, nobody has a divined purpose, and it doesn't matter if anybody lives or everybody dies.
I'd argue that, despite not being alive, being merged with the Warp and essentially destroyed is a net loss for the universe.
Well it prevents the universe from being destroyed by Heat-Death.
Psienesis wrote: This brings us back to my original question, then, "What are the ends of the Night Lords that justify the means by which they arrive at them?"
Is it survival? In that case, what is it about the Night Lords that their survival, as an organization, is so desirable to justify their atrocities?
You're looking at this from.. to high up? Does that make sense. The Night Lords don't have to be crucial to the survival of the galaxy to "justify their existence", they merely have to keep existing.
Let me put this a different way.
There are people who will kill other people in rage, out of faith, for vengeance, to defend something they believe in, or even for sport. Yet these people do not make up the majority of humanity as we know it. In fact, there's only one instance in which nearly EVERY person is willing to kill.. and that is to save their own life. To protect themselves and preserve their existence. This is basically why, in ye'average post apocalypse setting, trust is the hardest thing to come across and other people are the biggest threat. Once brass tacks are down and your own life is on the line, pretty much everyone becomes a killer.
To rope this back in: You're looking at the question wrong. No race in the 40k setting can justify its survival beyond "We'd just rather not die, kthx". The Imperium (and subsequently humanity) isn't helping the galaxy are large - quite the opposite. From a purely natural perspective, humans are a blight upon the 40k galaxy because of how many planets they effectively destroy (strip-harvesting entire planets, turning others into toxic and polluted wasted lands). The only way you can 'justify' the thing the Imperium, and indeed humanity does in this setting, is if the continued existence of those who commit the acts is justification.
The same goes for the Eldar. They're not helping the galaxy out at large - they freaking created Slaanesh.
The Orks have doubtlessly stamped numerous races into extinction, and like the Imperium have a bad habit of utterly ruining the worlds they end up on.
Dark Eldar are in the same boat as Eldar, and complete bastards to boot.
Chaos is the antithesis of reality.
The Necrons.. Yeah.
Do I even need to mention Tyranids?
The Tau are the 'best' race, but again cannot justify it. They have extremely underhanded practices, and alien races they encounter are either killed or subjugated in their empire; usually some combination there of.
Basically, the only justification for the Night Lords committing the actions they do in order to keep existing is that it allows them to keep existing. A pretty strong justification, considering no other faction in the 40k setting can say any different, and existence at large would be better off without most (all) of them.
Even if that's the viewpoint you're going by (which on a side note, completely ignores the context of the original post, which clearly meant "in the context of general moral standards that most sentient beings have" at the very least), "justified" does not equal "redeemable", anyways. Therefore even by your own view of "what's good for the galaxy" or "everyone else isn't any good for the galaxy", there is nothing redeeming to the Nightlords. Just "justified" and "just as bad as everyone else", which is still not "redeemable" at all. (not that anything could be "redeemable" by that viewpont. If there is no morality, there's no such thing as "redeemable" per the context of the original post)
Even if that's the viewpoint you're going by (which on a side note, completely ignores the context of the original post, which clearly meant "in the context of general moral standards that most sentient beings have" at the very least), "justified" does not equal "redeemable", anyways. Therefore even by your own view of "what's good for the galaxy" or "everyone else isn't any good for the galaxy", there is nothing redeeming to the Nightlords. Just "justified" and "just as bad as everyone else", which is still not "redeemable" at all. (not that anything could be "redeemable" by that viewpont. If there is no morality, there's no such thing as "redeemable" per the context of the original post)
Okay, but that still doesn't undermine my point. If we're going off the "general moral standards that most sentient beings have", than every single race in 40k is made up 100% of monsters. No one is good, no one is justified, no one is nice. Grim Dark.
If we're looking at this from in-universe, so the moral standards of each race, than everyone thinks everyone else is immoral, while they're paragons of morality, virtue, and good ( or at least justifiable, with the exception of most of chaos..). So it's a flawed question. If we're looking at it via real-world morality.. Well, then everyone is horrible and deserves to be killed by fire.
Even if that's the viewpoint you're going by (which on a side note, completely ignores the context of the original post, which clearly meant "in the context of general moral standards that most sentient beings have" at the very least), "justified" does not equal "redeemable", anyways. Therefore even by your own view of "what's good for the galaxy" or "everyone else isn't any good for the galaxy", there is nothing redeeming to the Nightlords. Just "justified" and "just as bad as everyone else", which is still not "redeemable" at all. (not that anything could be "redeemable" by that viewpont. If there is no morality, there's no such thing as "redeemable" per the context of the original post)
Okay, but that still doesn't undermine my point. If we're going off the "general moral standards that most sentient beings have", than every single race in 40k is made up 100% of monsters. No one is good, no one is justified, no one is nice. Grim Dark.
If we're looking at this from in-universe, so the moral standards of each race, than everyone thinks everyone else is immoral, while they're paragons of morality, virtue, and good ( or at least justifiable, with the exception of most of chaos..). So it's a flawed question. If we're looking at it via real-world morality.. Well, then everyone is horrible and deserves to be killed by fire.
This is a thread about redeemable qualities, not about whether or not someone is a monster (in fact, the whole point of the thread is acknowledging that someone is a monster, but asking if they still have redeeming qualities). Logan Grimmar can be a monster for hating Xenos, but his redeeming quality is he sincerely cares about many other people, for example (note: That's just one example). If he, Calgar, Dante, and the Salamanders have no redeeming features, you're gonna have to tell that to the fluff writers because they're rather explicit about them being nice people (IE, a redeeming feature) in spite of their other negative traits (which, at most, is typically just xenos hatred)
(the same can apply to the Imperium in varying degrees, and it's not just a matter of perspective. Even the Chaos Space Marine codex, which is from Chaos' point of view for the most part, doesn't bother trying to paint the Nightlords in any redeeming light, IIRC)
Even if that's the viewpoint you're going by (which on a side note, completely ignores the context of the original post, which clearly meant "in the context of general moral standards that most sentient beings have" at the very least), "justified" does not equal "redeemable", anyways. Therefore even by your own view of "what's good for the galaxy" or "everyone else isn't any good for the galaxy", there is nothing redeeming to the Nightlords. Just "justified" and "just as bad as everyone else", which is still not "redeemable" at all. (not that anything could be "redeemable" by that viewpont. If there is no morality, there's no such thing as "redeemable" per the context of the original post)
Okay, but that still doesn't undermine my point. If we're going off the "general moral standards that most sentient beings have", than every single race in 40k is made up 100% of monsters. No one is good, no one is justified, no one is nice. Grim Dark.
If we're looking at this from in-universe, so the moral standards of each race, than everyone thinks everyone else is immoral, while they're paragons of morality, virtue, and good ( or at least justifiable, with the exception of most of chaos..). So it's a flawed question. If we're looking at it via real-world morality.. Well, then everyone is horrible and deserves to be killed by fire.
Again, as we've already pointed out several times in this thread, the evils that the Imperium commits has a noble goal in the end, which is the survival of an entire species (Mankind).
The Night Lords are not fighting for this goal. They are, at best, fighting for the goal of their own personal survival, which is selfish, and in such a fight are committing atrocities that make the most-sadistic of serial murderers look like Girl Scouts in comparison.
Again I ask: By what metrics are the Night Lords at all redeemable by their actions?
The Nightlords fight against an Imperium that uses ignorance and lies to control humankind for its own ends. They do so while simultaneously recognizing the existence of true gods in the warp, and rejecting them for their vileness. It doesn't matter that they don't stand a chance of actually defeating the Imperium, only that they fight against its tyrannical hypocrisy while not devoting themselves to the chaos gods. The only reason they aren't the irrefutable good guys of the setting (there are none 'cause grimdark) is because their tactics for doing these things are barbarous in the extreme. The Nightlords share some thematic aspects with the craftworld Eldar in this respect. They are doing what is morally right in the big picture, but their methods are horrible and selfish. The Nightlords are much more redeemable than any Imperial faction which are dooming the entire human race to a fate similar to the Eldar (By doing a 180 on the Imperial Truth without the protection of a living Emperor or devotion to a true god.) in exchange for a little short term stability while simultaneously committing just as heinous acts.
Even if that's the viewpoint you're going by (which on a side note, completely ignores the context of the original post, which clearly meant "in the context of general moral standards that most sentient beings have" at the very least), "justified" does not equal "redeemable", anyways. Therefore even by your own view of "what's good for the galaxy" or "everyone else isn't any good for the galaxy", there is nothing redeeming to the Nightlords. Just "justified" and "just as bad as everyone else", which is still not "redeemable" at all. (not that anything could be "redeemable" by that viewpont. If there is no morality, there's no such thing as "redeemable" per the context of the original post)
Okay, but that still doesn't undermine my point. If we're going off the "general moral standards that most sentient beings have", than every single race in 40k is made up 100% of monsters. No one is good, no one is justified, no one is nice. Grim Dark.
If we're looking at this from in-universe, so the moral standards of each race, than everyone thinks everyone else is immoral, while they're paragons of morality, virtue, and good ( or at least justifiable, with the exception of most of chaos..). So it's a flawed question. If we're looking at it via real-world morality.. Well, then everyone is horrible and deserves to be killed by fire.
Again, as we've already pointed out several times in this thread, the evils that the Imperium commits has a noble goal in the end, which is the survival of an entire species (Mankind).
The Night Lords are not fighting for this goal. They are, at best, fighting for the goal of their own personal survival, which is selfish, and in such a fight are committing atrocities that make the most-sadistic of serial murderers look like Girl Scouts in comparison.
Again I ask: By what metrics are the Night Lords at all redeemable by their actions?
There is no metric. The only goal of anyone or anything is their own survival. The Night Lords fight for themselves, just as the Dark Eldar do, the Imperium does, or Necrons.
I think people are getting hung up on the difference between redeeming qualities and justification for their actions.
Quality-wise, there isn't anything overtly visible to me that I would call redeeming. Their over-the-top brutality and goal of inducing terror for the sake of terrifying and slaughtering others is certainly abhorrent from our external viewpoint. Tell that to a Night Lord though and they would probably say thank you. These guys live in a universe where these actions are fairly run-of-the-mill for any of the baddie factions. We have: Necrons committing universal genocide; Eldar and Dark Eldar using the other, lesser races as tools to prolong their own existence by either torturing their victims or manipulating events so that the results are in their favor at the expense of other races; the Imperium behaving the moral monstrosities we know and love them for; and Chaos is well... Chaos. The "just because everyone else is doing it, doesn't make it right" argument that your mother used to tell you comes into play here, but the only reason that I feel the Night Lords get targeted for the big baddie role is because they are so open about their actions being committed purely for the sake of committing them, and not some grander scheme or purpose. To me, that is a quasi-redeeming point. At least they fully accept the role that they made for themselves.
All of this leads into the difference between qualities and justification that I made earlier. Again, they live in a world much different and scarier than ours. So many questions are a mystery to us. Questions about divine beings, or life off the Earth for example. These help shape our sense of what is right. The 40k universe has many of these questions answered for them. For a faction that denied their species by turning their back on the Imperium, then deined the rival faction of the Warp Gods, what else is there to justify your actions than by being whatever it is that you decide for yourself to be? This is exactly what the Night Lords did. They give themselves up to no God (for the majority of them), and have given up on their species. With no outside influence to suggest what the right and wrong actions are, they have been left with the freedom to plot their own course. What it appears they have decided to pursue is to enjoy themselves... which happens to be terrifying and slaughtering the weak.
They are doing what is morally right in the big picture
This needs further explanation, because I don't believe that the Imperium is particularly hypocritical.
I see the Imperium as hypocritical to the extreme. There are the specific hypocrisies like shunning psykers yet utilizing them whenever necessary, abhorring mutants while at the same time venerating space marines (and others) who are in fact mutants themselves. More alarming is the hypocritical nature that's woven into their general purpose. They claim to be protecting mankind but in fact are damning them to an eventual fall to chaos. Everything the Emperor did was geared toward avoiding this fate. His general strategy was to abolish the worship of chaos via the elimination of belief in any/all gods. The only other way for mankind to avoid having the same fate of the eldar is to accept chaos (this is what Lorgar viewed as the only true option). In addition, by worshiping the Emperor as a god and spitting on the Imperial Truth, the Imperium goes against the core teachings of the being they claim to serve, thus making them the most harmful of heretics.
By doing a 180 on the Imperial Truth without the protection of a living Emperor or devotion to a true god.
Citation needed to prove the God-Emperor is not, in fact, a Warp Entity of immense power.
The Emperor created the Imperial Truth to expunge chaos worship and in turn prevent mankind from cataclysmic chaos event like the Eldar. The only other way to prevent this is to simply accept chaos like Lorgar. The Emperor is indeed a warp entity of immense power but the fact of the matter is that the Emperor could not protect mankind from the chaos gods through sheer force of will alone. This is why he choose the risky maneuver of trying to eliminate chaos worship and make warp travel obsolete via the webway. He sought to remove humanity from the danger of chaos solely because he knew to take on chaos with power vs power would be guaranteed to fail.
I see the Imperium as hypocritical to the extreme. There are the specific hypocrisies like shunning psykers yet utilizing them whenever necessary, abhorring mutants while at the same time venerating space marines (and others) who are in fact mutants themselves. More alarming is the hypocritical nature that's woven into their general purpose. They claim to be protecting mankind but in fact are damning them to an eventual fall to chaos. Everything the Emperor did was geared toward avoiding this fate. His general strategy was to abolish the worship of chaos via the elimination of belief in any/all gods. The only other way for mankind to avoid having the same fate of the eldar is to accept chaos (this is what Lorgar viewed as the only true option). In addition, by worshiping the Emperor as a god and spitting on the Imperial Truth, the Imperium goes against the core teachings of the being they claim to serve, thus making them the most harmful of heretics.
Excepting he didn't ban the worship of all gods. He specifically allowed the various cults worshipping him to flourish on Terra, and elswhere throughout his Empire. His core teachings were, basically, "Don't worship anything... except me."
The belief of him being some arch-atheist is... misguided, at best. Outright fabricated at worst. After all, even he used a deal with the Ruinous Powers to make the Primarchs, so it was not like he, himself, didn't believe in them.
The Emperor is indeed a warp entity of immense power but the fact of the matter is that the Emperor could not protect mankind from the chaos gods through sheer force of will alone. This is why he choose the risky maneuver of trying to eliminate chaos worship and make warp travel obsolete via the webway. He sought to remove humanity from the danger of chaos solely because he knew to take on chaos with power vs power would be guaranteed to fail.
Then he is, indeed, a god. The Ruinous Powers themselves are nothing more than powerful sentiences that reside within the Warp... exactly what the Emperor is now, and quite possibly was during the GC, too, being both a mortal body and an immortal Presence in the Warp.
Excepting he didn't ban the worship of all gods. He specifically allowed the various cults worshipping him to flourish on Terra, and elswhere throughout his Empire. His core teachings were, basically, "Don't worship anything... except me."
The belief of him being some arch-atheist is... misguided, at best. Outright fabricated at worst. After all, even he used a deal with the Ruinous Powers to make the Primarchs, so it was not like he, himself, didn't believe in them.
I believe it was in The First Heretic, the Emperor himself claims that he is no god, and that his purpose was to free people from superstitious worship, not to simply enslave them to him as diety. The Emperor knew for a fact gods existed so I wouldn't call him an atheist. However, it was his intention to abolish all knowledge and worship of the gods so that chaos couldn't get a foothold in humanity
Then he is, indeed, a god. The Ruinous Powers themselves are nothing more than powerful sentiences that reside within the Warp... exactly what the Emperor is now, and quite possibly was during the GC, too, being both a mortal body and an immortal Presence in the Warp.
There are many powerful warp entities but that doesn't mean they are all gods. The four chaos gods are truly immortal beings that are wholly of the warp. They are amalgamations of emotions from many different creatures. You can call the Emperor a god if you want but he is most assuredly mortal, otherwise he wouldn't need the life support of the golden throne, most assuredly not wholly of the warp as he is decidedly human albeit of singular psychic ability and resides in the material realm with ease which is impossible for warp creatures. He also has no connection to the emotions of the creatures of the galaxy. That is why the four are truly immortal. The four may be defeated I suppose, but there were always be those filled with the murderous intent, scheming, depravity and fear of death that empower the gods and make them immortal. The emperor has no such claim, if you unplug his archeotech chair, he'll be gone forever.
I believe it was in The First Heretic, the Emperor himself claims that he is no god, and that his purpose was to free people from superstitious worship, not to simply enslave them to him as diety. The Emperor knew for a fact gods existed so I wouldn't call him an atheist. However, it was his intention to abolish all knowledge and worship of the gods so that chaos couldn't get a foothold in humanity
And at the end of The First Heretic, the priest walks back into the burning church because he saw through the Emperor's BS and knew exactly what his game was.
There are many powerful warp entities but that doesn't mean they are all gods. The four chaos gods are truly immortal beings that are wholly of the warp. They are amalgamations of emotions from many different creatures. You can call the Emperor a god if you want but he is most assuredly mortal, otherwise he wouldn't need the life support of the golden throne, most assuredly not wholly of the warp as he is decidedly human albeit of singular psychic ability and resides in the material realm with ease which is impossible for warp creatures. He also has no connection to the emotions of the creatures of the galaxy. That is why the four are truly immortal. The four may be defeated I suppose, but there were always be those filled with the murderous intent, scheming, depravity and fear of death that empower the gods and make them immortal. The emperor has no such claim, if you unplug his archeotech chair, he'll be gone forever.
Mortal in body, not in mind. Hence the whole "Star Child" theory. Also, now, a Perpetual, which is a new spin on an old idea. Unplugging the chair might be the best thing the Imperium could do, but it is such a huge gamble they dare not do it.
Daemons are immortal, too. What, then, counts as a "God" in the Warp? After all, it cannot be the worship of mortals, because Necoho has none, and yet is a Chaos God (of Atheism, as a matter of fact). Then there is the Horned Rat and Zuvassin the Undoer, to name a few more.
... but, all of that aside, this is about the Night Lords and their "redeeming qualities", if any, as stated by the thread's title. And I still state that they don't have any. That they don't worship the Chaos Gods is not a redeeming quality, as it's not consistent throughout the remains of the Legion (such as it is), and the Night Lords are not maintaining that stance as a measure or nod of respect to the Imperial Truth in any form.
... but, all of that aside, this is about the Night Lords and their "redeeming qualities", if any, as stated by the thread's title. And I still state that they don't have any. That they don't worship the Chaos Gods is not a redeeming quality, as it's not consistent throughout the remains of the Legion (such as it is), and the Night Lords are not maintaining that stance as a measure or nod of respect to the Imperial Truth in any form.
While i agree with your assessment that the Night Lords don't have any obvious redeeming qualities, your argument here posits that the only way they could have a redeeming quality is if the entire chapter fully devoted themselves to the Chaos Gods or to the Imperial Truth. I feel that is a little restrictive. First, there must be some redeeming qualities that can exist without adhering to one of those two religious ideas. Second, if an entire chapter must devote themselves to an ideal, then there must be no redeemable chapters, bar maybe the Gray Knights. There are schisms and differing of beliefs within most chapters, often resulting in members who believe differently going renegade or becoming a chaos worshipper, particularly during the Great Crusade. If we cannot exclude minorities within chapters or legions, then i believe your standard for adhering to religious ideals as being unreachable.
graywater wrote: I tFor a faction that denied their species by turning their back on the Imperium, then deined the rival faction of the Warp Gods, what else is there to justify your actions than by being whatever it is that you decide for yourself to be? This is exactly what the Night Lords did. They give themselves up to no God (for the majority of them), and have given up on their species. With no outside influence to suggest what the right and wrong actions are, they have been left with the freedom to plot their own course. What it appears they have decided to pursue is to enjoy themselves... which happens to be terrifying and slaughtering the weak.
This, I believe is first genuinely redeeming quality that the Night Lords have been given in this thread, if we define a redeeming quality as "a quality that could hypothetically lead to one's redemption". The freedom to plot their own course includes the freedom to realise the wickedness of their ways and return to a course that is for the betterment of mankind or at least to a course that is not bent on destruction and bloodshed. What could cause a Night Lord to realise the futility of his slaughtering and mamiming and regain hope that humanity is saveable and start working to that end I have no idea.
This is also assuming that, regardless of their initial rejection of both Chaos and the Imperium, they have not in the 10,000 years since the Heresy slowly, will-they or nil-they been dragged into becoming true creatures Chaos in all but name anyway.
Taking all of this out of the context of ultimate goals, Night Haunter was based on the idea of a Batman-type character who was violently opposed to corruption in all it's forms. Another redeeming quality is that they have traditionally preyed upon the powerful and corrupt.
In a political system that is based on universal repression, there has to be some kind of counterbalance to the excesses that take place. I have always thought of the Night Lords as the logical expression of that counter, given all the other excesses of 40k. You have to be really, really awful to strike fear into the hearts of planetary governors and whatnot.
... but, all of that aside, this is about the Night Lords and their "redeeming qualities", if any, as stated by the thread's title. And I still state that they don't have any. That they don't worship the Chaos Gods is not a redeeming quality, as it's not consistent throughout the remains of the Legion (such as it is), and the Night Lords are not maintaining that stance as a measure or nod of respect to the Imperial Truth in any form.
Agree to disagree then. I think standing against an Imperium built on lies and hypocrisy while simultaneously denouncing the vile chaos gods (that others who stood against the empire fell enslaved to) is more than just a redeeming quality, its basically the moral high ground.
I think standing against an Imperium built on lies and hypocrisy while simultaneously denouncing the vile chaos gods (that others who stood against the empire fell enslaved to) is more than just a redeeming quality, its basically the moral high ground.
Morality may be understood as subjective, particularly in such a confusing setting existentially-speaking as 40k. What is right or wrong depends wholly on where you stand on any given situation. 40k has such polar positions, it is often the case that what is the right thing to do for one faction is the absolute wrong thing to do for another. Despite who is on the moral high ground, perhaps the fact that the Night Lords have drawn their own path and have stuck to it in such a subjective and unclear universe is commendable.
... but, all of that aside, this is about the Night Lords and their "redeeming qualities", if any, as stated by the thread's title. And I still state that they don't have any. That they don't worship the Chaos Gods is not a redeeming quality, as it's not consistent throughout the remains of the Legion (such as it is), and the Night Lords are not maintaining that stance as a measure or nod of respect to the Imperial Truth in any form.
Agree to disagree then. I think standing against an Imperium built on lies and hypocrisy while simultaneously denouncing the vile chaos gods (that others who stood against the empire fell enslaved to) is more than just a redeeming quality, its basically the moral high ground.
Raptor Cults are believed to worship one or more of the Minor Chaos Gods, rather than one of the Great Four, and there are *lots* of Night Lord Raptor Cults. The Bleeding Eye (a NL warband operating throughout the galaxy) is one such band. Krieg Acerbus was a Captain of the Night Lords during the GC/HH who became a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided, and is now in command of the largest collection of post-Heresy Night Lords in the galaxy.
Members of the First Claw are known to follow specific Chaos Gods. Uzas, of the First Claw, is a Khornate Berzerker, for example. Ruven, also formerly of the First Claw, had left the Legion and joined Abaddon's Black Legion as a Sorcerer. And this besides the fact that the leader of the First Claw is daemonically-possessed. I do not think the Night Lords give Chaos the middle finger as much as people believe that they do, considering that their most-mentioned warband in BL materials is chock-full of members both current and former, who have given themselves over to daemonic possession, sorcery,
You have to be really, really awful to strike fear into the hearts of planetary governors and whatnot.
The Inquisition does that, too. As do most Space Marines. The Night Lords do this by the butchering of a civilian population.
This is also assuming that, regardless of their initial rejection of both Chaos and the Imperium, they have not in the 10,000 years since the Heresy slowly, will-they or nil-they been dragged into becoming true creatures Chaos in all but name anyway.
They're based in the EoT, mutation is a foregone conclusion.
Denouncing the chaos gods means jack squat if you're knowingly serving them anyways (which the Night Lords basically are. Some of them are friggin' led by daemon princes, for crying out loud).
If anything, it also brings into question the whole "at least the Night Lords are free" quality brought up here as well as the whole "at least the Night Lords aren't hypocrites" quality (not that I personally would view either of those as falling under the definition of a "redeeming quality" because neither redeem by themselves)
Just as a reminder, the "ends justifies the means" quality only applied to them during the Great Crusade (as did the "They only prey on the rich/strong" quality). Post-heresy, they HAVE no ends to justify the means beyond simple survival (and even that's not always the reason they do what they do. They might not be Emperors' Children but they will still engage in lots of wanton destruction and brutality just because they enjoy it)
Raptor Cults are believed to worship one or more of the Minor Chaos Gods, rather than one of the Great Four, and there are *lots* of Night Lord Raptor Cults. The Bleeding Eye (a NL warband operating throughout the galaxy) is one such band. Krieg Acerbus was a Captain of the Night Lords during the GC/HH who became a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided, and is now in command of the largest collection of post-Heresy Night Lords in the galaxy.
You cite specific examples of individuals or small groups that may or may not knowing/unknowingly serve the chaos gods but these are by no means representative of the legion on the whole. Maybe its just because their rules (when they have any different from generic csm) often involve jump packs people assume Night Lords = raptors, but the Night Lords are not comprised mostly of raptors. The Bleeding Eyes are primarily from the ADB NL trilogy are not a warband but merely a squad within a warband. From my memory out of the several squads mentioned throughout the trilogy they are the only squad of raptors mentioned. Raptors are not the norm for Night Lords. It is a defining characteristic that the nightlords generally shun those who have dealings with the warp or warp creatures.
Members of the First Claw are known to follow specific Chaos Gods. Uzas, of the First Claw, is a Khornate Berzerker, for example . Ruven, also formerly of the First Claw, had left the Legion and joined Abaddon's Black Legion as a Sorcerer. And this besides the fact that the leader of the First Claw is daemonically-possessed. I do not think the Night Lords give Chaos the middle finger as much as people believe that they do, considering that their most-mentioned warband in BL materials is chock-full of members both current and former, who have given themselves over to daemonic possession, sorcery,
A single member not memberS of first claw follow a specific god as you say. Uzas follows Khorne unwittingly and if you read the trilogy his squad mates distrust and shun him for his exceedingly chaotic behavior. Spoiler: they contemplate killing him for this behavior and although decide not to he ends up dying at the hands of Talos anwyay because of it. Similarly with Ruven who is deeply mistrusted and even fled the NL legion in order to practice his sorcery. The leader of First Claw is Talos who is most assuredly not possessed as you claim. You may be thinking of Vandred from the trilogy who is leader of the 10th Company/Exalted who is definitely possessed by some sort of Tzeentchian daemon, and whom the entire company has nothing but disdain and disgust for but have to follow anyway because he rules with an iron fist and is incredibly adept at the type of void warfare they need to keep their piratical life going. Are the NL totally free from any chaos taint? obviously not, but the same can be said for the Imperium. Pointing to this fact does nothing to tarnish the fact that in general terms, the NL do not dedicate themselves to chaos. They are not the chaos devotees you paint them to be, especially not worse than the imperium who births heretics and traitors every second.
JubbJubbz wrote: You cite specific examples of individuals or small groups that may or may not knowing/unknowingly serve the chaos gods but these are by no means representative of the legion on the whole
The largest collection of post-Heresy Night Lords follows a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided. So unless we want to get down into judging individual warbands, the bulk of their representatives follow a Daemon Prince. They seem to be pretty down with the Chaos.
The fact that the Legion is so fragmented, so contradictory, so prone to stabbing one another in the back indicates that, no, they aren't redeemable and, no, they're not even particularly justified in their actions, as most of their actions are based on either backstabbing a rival, stealing something from someone else, or avenging a slight that happened 10,000 years ago.
JubbJubbz wrote: From my memory out of the several squads mentioned throughout the trilogy they are the only squad of raptors mentioned. Raptors are not the norm for Night Lords. It is a defining characteristic that the nightlords generally shun those who have dealings with the warp or warp creatures.
Except...
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 6th Ed wrote:The Night Lords, due to their specialty on terror tactics and shock assaults, are known to employ large numbers of Raptors
There's a lot of Raptor Cults in the NL.
The Bleeding Eyes are a Night Lords affiliated Chaos Raptor cult. A populous brotherhood, the Bleeding Eye operates in cells across several Sectors of the Galaxy and ally themselves with other Chaos Space Marine warbands, often acting as mercenaries.
... that's from Lexicanum, but is sourced from Blood Reaver.
JubbJubbz wrote: They are not the chaos devotees you paint them to be, especially not worse than the imperium who births heretics and traitors every second.
If the defense of the Night Lords is "they're just as bad as the Imperium!" then they're not redeemable, since the Night Lords are one of the reasons the Imperium is so bad. If their defense is "they are only as bad as Space-Hitler!" then... yeah, not redeemable.
The largest collection of post-Heresy Night Lords follows a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided. So unless we want to get down into judging individual warbands, the bulk of their representatives follow a Daemon Prince. They seem to be pretty down with the Chaos.
There isn't a whole lot of fluff that even mentions Krieg Acerbus. To my knowledge he's only brought up in Lord of the Night. So there's not really much to go off of. If you want to cherry pick that fact however, it still doesn't lessen the legion in anyway. Daemon Princes aren't democratically elected officials, they tend to be tyrants if they care about an army at all. Just because Hitler was the leader of Germany, does that mean those he lead were irredeemable? The answer is no, they can be redeemable because a tyrannical leader has power to force people to do things they don't want to do. There's a difference between 'redeemable' and 'infallible'.
The fact that the Legion is so fragmented, so contradictory, so prone to stabbing one another in the back indicates that, no, they aren't redeemable and, no, they're not even particularly justified in their actions, as most of their actions are based on either backstabbing a rival, stealing something from someone else, or avenging a slight that happened 10,000 years ago.
Again, a flaw does not make them irredeemable. No one is going to arguing that any faction in 40k has all kinds of horrible practices/tendencies. In fact, there's very few factions that aren't fractured as you speak. The Imperium also is fragmented, contradictory, and prone to stabbing one another in the back. Their actions are very justified for the same arguments I've stated above. The Emperor's creation of the space-Nazi Imperium is much more than a "slight" as you put it to the ones he stepped on to do so.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 6th Ed wrote:The Night Lords, due to their specialty on terror tactics and shock assaults, are known to employ large numbers of Raptors
There's a lot of Raptor Cults in the NL.
As far as I can tell this statement never occurs in the Chaos Codex 6th edition. It only appears on Lexi. In a whole page of fluff for Raptors, the Night Lords are mentioned a single time. What it actually says is, "... the Night Lords ... attract a great many Raptors to its banner." This does not imply in anyway that Raptors are somehow a core of the Night Lords. In fact, if you actually read the fluff on the raptors in the codex it only supports whats in the night lords trilogy that raptors are sort of wandering squads that nobody likes but are too useful to send away. They don't represent the character of the Night Lords legion any more than an Inquisitor represents the character of a chapter he tags along with.
The Bleeding Eyes are a Night Lords affiliated Chaos Raptor cult. A populous brotherhood, the Bleeding Eye operates in cells across several Sectors of the Galaxy and ally themselves with other Chaos Space Marine warbands, often acting as mercenaries.
... that's from Lexicanum, but is sourced from Blood Reaver.
Read the trilogy, the squad in it is affiliated with the Night Lords, as a Raptor cult they change allegiances and are not owned, nor a part of any particular legion, different squads being allied to different legions at any given time.
If the defense of the Night Lords is "they're just as bad as the Imperium!" then they're not redeemable, since the Night Lords are one of the reasons the Imperium is so bad. If their defense is "they are only as bad as Space-Hitler!" then... yeah, not redeemable.
You've said this more than once, but no one is claiming that they are redeemable because "they're just as bad as the Imperium." In fact, one of the things that does make them redeemable is that they are staunch enemies of Space-Hitler.
Since the fluff written concerning the Night Lords seems to mean less to you than poorly cited little blurbs from wikis. Here's some of the same supporting my stance that the Night Lords are not, and never have been 'down with chaos.'
Lexicanum and Warhammer40k wikia wrote:
the Night Lords maintain a certain contempt for all of the Ruinous Powers, as well as for what they perceive as weakness of any sort, a mistrust they inherited from the Night Haunter, who was no more fond of the major Chaos Gods than he was of his father the Emperor
...
However, as of the late 41st Millennium, some Night Lords may be tainted by the touch of Chaos and have developed mutations, a fact that those so affected try to hide from their brethren, as the Night Lords are traditionally as disgusted by mutation as their Loyalist counterparts
...
The Legion holds no true allegiance to any one of the four Ruinous Powers and views all religious devotion as a form of weakness
...
It is just as likely that the Night Lords will be seen fighting alongside a group of foul Plague Marines as it is the undead warriors of the Thousand Sons. However, it has been ascertained that the Night Lords have nothing but scorn for faith in all its forms
There isn't a whole lot of fluff that even mentions Krieg Acerbus. To my knowledge he's only brought up in Lord of the Night. So there's not really much to go off of. If you want to cherry pick that fact however, it still doesn't lessen the legion in anyway. Daemon Princes aren't democratically elected officials, they tend to be tyrants if they care about an army at all. Just because Hitler was the leader of Germany, does that mean those he lead were irredeemable? The answer is no, they can be redeemable because a tyrannical leader has power to force people to do things they don't want to do. There's a difference between 'redeemable' and 'infallible'.
Ehm, BS. And, in fact, the trials after WW2 demonstrated that it was BS. "I was only following orders" is not a valid defense against the commission of atrocities.
40K Wikia publishes fan-fiction as fact, so its sources are suspect. I know the fandom wants the NL to be the Chaos Legion that gives Chaos the finger... but they really don't seem to be.
They are, in any case, not even slightly redeemable.
Ehm, BS. And, in fact, the trials after WW2 demonstrated that it was BS. "I was only following orders" is not a valid defense against the commission of atrocities.
d
Only Axis officers were tried, notice Axis and Officers. No mention atrocities that happened during the battle of Monte Casino, bombing of Hiroshima, or deaths of German POW's.
In reality those who don't follow orders meet untimely demises. Hugh Thomson who intervened during the My Lia massacre was given purposely dangerous missions afterward. Trying soldiers is impossible because 18 year old kids can not be blamed for the actions of politicians. Also the Nuremberg tribunals are one of the greatest examples of victors justice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back to the subject of the Night Lords.... Do the Blood Angels have any redeeming qualities as the hallucinate while drinking the blood of their enemies are cleaving a women holding a child in two(Void Stalker)? Does the Inquisition have redeeming qualities when torture those who are loyal to them? No side in 40k is meant to be considered good, any good is supposed to be like finding flowers in a junkyard. As far as redeeming qualities they protect those that are loyal to them, each other, mortals under their rule, and sometimes even allied warbands and legions.
Does the Inquisition have redeeming qualities when torture those who are loyal to them?
What is inexcusable in the cause of purity?
No mention atrocities that happened during the battle of Monte Casino, bombing of Hiroshima, or deaths of German POW's.
The victors write the history books. Nothing was done about the bombing of Hiroshima because it wasn't considered illegal, and your claim about the deaths of German POWs is pretty vague. POWs die all the time for a number of reasons, most not connected to war-crimes.
Monte Casino was bombed because it was believed to be part of the German defensive line (and, in fact, had been, but had been abandoned prior to the bombing). Further, several reconnaissance reports indicated evidence that it was occupied by German forces, and military intelligence indicated that it was a perfect location for artillery spotting and as an observation post for the surrounding countryside. While there was some dissent with the reports, the prevailing belief was that the monastery may have been currently occupied, recently occupied, or could be occupied at any point, at which point the attempt to take the region would be lost (as it had stalled out thus far, with upwards of 80% Allied casualties).
There was no concentrated, coordinated effort to kill civilians in the church... in fact, it was not until after the hill was finally taken that the Allied forces even learned that there had been civilians in the church.
Hugh Thomson who intervened during the My Lia massacre was given purposely dangerous missions afterward
Hugh Thompson was a helicopter pilot who would receive a DFC (which he threw away), a Purple Heart and, later, a Soldier's Medal. He survived Vietnam, and there is no indication that his actions at My Lai were responsible for his later missions. He was, after all, a spotter-pilot. They fly a small, lightweight helicopter (the OH-23 Raven, at the time) into combat areas to act as artillery and air-support spotters.
More importantly, there were investigations done on My Lai. Whether or not you agree with the findings is irrelevant, the fact remains that investigations were done under the auspices that such actions were not tolerated. Nothing of the sort is done by the Night Lords.
The Night Lords pull a My Lai because it's a Tuesday... only they make it a thousand times worse. Instead of just putting people in groups and lobbing grenades at them or cutting them down with machineguns, the Night Lords will line people up, strip them down, and then peel their skin off, one at a time, forcing the others to watch.
You mistake my point, the point im trying to make is that you go against orders whether their illegal, evil, or just plain stupid something bad will happen to you.
Not considered illegal by the victors, Saddam didn't think gassing the Kurds was illegal either.
Ehm, it was one of the justifications used for the continuing occupation and re-invasion of Iraq. We know how that ended.
I'm not talking about the bombing of Monte Casino i'm talking about the mass rapes and murders that happened.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marocchinate
That was something I wasn't aware of, I was only aware of the battle. Also, this event happened after, not during.
You mistake my point, the point im trying to make is that you go against orders whether their illegal, evil, or just plain stupid something bad will happen to you.
Ehm, no, really, it doesn't. In the modern military (I have served in the US Army), it is drilled into your head from Day 1 that you have both the right and the responsibility to disobey and report any order that is unlawful or in violation of the Geneva Conventions or Rules of Engagement as defined by the DOD. Do violations still happen? Of course. Are they swept under the rug when they are exposed? No. The court-martials and such resulting from Abu Ghraib as one such example.
it is drilled into your head from Day 1 that you have both the right and the responsibility to disobey and report any order that is unlawful or in violation of the Geneva Conventions or Rules of Engagement as defined by the DOD.
The US army isn't sent to commit acts of terror so having them report violations makes sense. If you look at any time the US or any Western democracy commits an atrocity they always do it with "plausible deniability" sometimes using another country to perform atrocities, sometimes using covert troops. I've personally heard from people who lets just say WOULD KNOW that during the Vietnam War it was often special forces that committed the worst atrocities. Look at the murders dynacorp is suspected of in South America.
Lets just leave America out for a second, lets say if you were in the Japanese Army during WWII do you really think you would live long if you refused to take part in things you thought were unethical? Soldiers do what their told with a few exceptions, this is nothing new.
That was something I wasn't aware of
Its largely unknown outside of Italy. In the US sort of like in Russia WWII is such a component of our identity nothing that contradicts the "good war" narrative is not allowed.
Back to the main topic what do the Night Lords have that's redeeming? Not much, but neither do many factions in 40K. The Eldar are a bunch of Elf racist, the Imperium is an oppressive theocracy. Tell me can you relate to a Blood Angel who drinks the blood of children any more than you can relate to Cyrion getting some sexual thrill off of fear?
Back to the main topic what do the Night Lords have that's redeeming? Not much, but neither do many factions in 40K. The Eldar are a bunch of Elf racist, the Imperium is an oppressive theocracy. Tell me can you relate to a Blood Angel who drinks the blood of children any more than you can relate to Cyrion getting some sexual thrill off of fear?
Er, the whole point of a redeeming quality is that there's a good quality in there among the bad ones, typically of the moral alignment depending on the context (which is probably the intended context of the OP for this thread). So the Imperium being an oppressive theocracy or the Blood Angels drinking blood doesn't change the fact that the Imperium also has (for example) charity hospitals run by the sisters hospitaler or that the Blood Angels are extremely nice and caring towards many others when they aren't in the throngs of the black rage.
You can be an extremely evil jack ass but if you have a redeeming quality, then you have a redeeming quality. The Imperium and the Blood Angels have that. The question is whether or not the Night Lords do (and IMHO, they don't and the fluff has made it clear they don't, with the exception of like, a few exceptions that aren't representative of the legion. At least, post-heresy, though even pre-heresy the only difference was they were pointed in an arguably more moral direction by those they were working for).
1. Dedication to something greater to themselves, their Legion, their fathers memory each other.
2. Fighting in the name of truth against an empire built on lies. Whenever you hear them justify what they do they always make a reference to the Imperiums founding lies. Also the death is nothing but vindication was meant to send a message of truth.
3. Loyalty to each other, even though they despise because their brothers.
4. Courage in the face of impossible odds. Space Marines know fear, just in a more logical way. In Void Stalker both the Night Lords and mortal crew met their fates without begging or talking about how it was unfair.
5. Ingenuity when dealing with tough problems, the shriek, fighting war on their terms. Their actions would have been worthy of Sun Zsu
Ehm, no, really, it doesn't. In the modern military (I have served in the US Army), it is drilled into your head from Day 1 that you have both the right and the responsibility to disobey and report any order that is unlawful or in violation of the Geneva Conventions or Rules of Engagement as defined by the DOD. Do violations still happen? Of course. Are they swept under the rug when they are exposed? No. The court-martials and such resulting from Abu Ghraib as one such example.
It is in fact drilled into you, but you'd be naive to think that there wont be repercussions in some way shape or form for the disobeying of an order. It very likely wouldn't something serious like being taking out behind the wood shed and shot, but there generally are smaller punishments that Officers and NCOs are able to get away with. Your average trooper is also likely to forget this 'duty' to disobey unlawful orders in the heat of things and carry out the action regardless. On a similar note of forgetting, many people also forget that they swear to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States, from all foes foreign and domestic and under the letter should interpret certain actions of politicians as unlawful attacks.
Back on topic, I think part of the issue with this thread is the insistence of the Legion to be judge as a whole. The Eighth Legion is a shattered entity, broken up more so than many of their brother Legions, and each warband has ultimately different and sometimes conflicting ideologies. Where one may completely abhor the powers of the warp, another may make a an uneasy alliance for their own gain, where one may murder a world for fun, another may do it out of the necessity to survive. Prior to this fracturing it would be simpler to define whether or not they had an redeeming qualities on the whole, now its simply a case by case basis.
The same can also be said of various Imperial institutions, while one maybe heavy handed and uncaring, another might not be.
It is in fact drilled into you, but you'd be naive to think that there wont be repercussions in some way shape or form for the disobeying of an order. It very likely wouldn't something serious like being taking out behind the wood shed and shot, but there generally are smaller punishments that Officers and NCOs are able to get away with. Your average trooper is also likely to forget this 'duty' to disobey unlawful orders in the heat of things and carry out the action regardless. On a similar note of forgetting, many people also forget that they swear to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States, from all foes foreign and domestic and under the letter should interpret certain actions of politicians as unlawful attacks.
Not that I disagree, but that's a topic for a different thread.
broken up more so than many of their brother Legions
They don't have leader but are always able to come together when facing a threat whether the Imperium or a rival Legion.
charity hospitals run by the sisters hospitaler
Their are doctors in the eye of terror too. The Imperial hospitals only care for genetically pure Imperial citizens. This is a universe where people only protect their own.
