So, I wanted to find about how things went at this year's Feast of Blades invitational. The Internet is strangely silent. Anyone?

I was wondering the same thing.

Doh, you said Invitational.

Well, one finalist was found to have made it to round 6 with an illegal list (white scars with Sevrin Loth stuck in there) so he was made to change his list on the spot, and the other was DQed for having dice with the 2's drilled and painted to look like 5's so that he couldn't roll 2's with Tzeentch Daemons.

So, I guess, uh... everyone's a winner?

slaede wrote:
Well, one finalist was found to have made it to round 6 with an illegal list (white scars with Sevrin Loth stuck in there) so he was made to change his list on the spot, and the other was DQed for having dice with the 2's drilled and painted to look like 5's so that he couldn't roll 2's with Tzeentch Daemons.

So, I guess, uh... everyone's a winner?

Which player drilled their dice? Inquiring GT organizers wish to know for future reference if this player attends.

It was Kenny Boucher from he Forge the Narrative podcast. Supposedly it happened at the end of the tournament. He claims he bought the dice on eBay but never checked them. He apologized publicly at the event and wrote an apology on the FTN Facebook page.

Who was it a bit ago that showed up and used weighted dice claiming he had no idea they were loaded and that he'd just picked them up on his into the event? I wanna say it was at Beaky Con but I'm not 100%sure.

Also, who doesn't notice they don't roll two's on certain dice all tournament?

slaede wrote:
Well, one finalist was found to have made it to round 6 with an illegal list (white scars with Sevrin Loth stuck in there) so he was made to change his list on the spot, and the other was DQed for having dice with the 2's drilled and painted to look like 5's so that he couldn't roll 2's with Tzeentch Daemons.

So, I guess, uh... everyone's a winner?

What was illegal about the list? Over in points?

So besides the crap that people love to endlessly talk about (cheating), I'm much more interested in the actual results (and general perceptions of the whole thing), given that it was a 'kitchen sink' event (where you could take just about anything).

Did it still roughly all still work given the huge breadth of choices players had to bring? Did certain LoW dominate (Ascendent C'Tan)? Minus the 'cheaters', what were the other lists in the finals, etc, etc, etc.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

jy2 wrote:
What was illegal about the list? Over in points?

Severin Loth has to be in a Red Scorpions detachment and it sounds like he was in a White Scars detachment.

Yep, found the thread. It was BeakyCon 2012 with supposedly member of the Wrecking Crew using a weighted dice for his go first or seize rolls.

As for the event I'm also interested in the results and what people thought about the format.

 jy2 wrote:

slaede wrote:
Well, one finalist was found to have made it to round 6 with an illegal list (white scars with Sevrin Loth stuck in there) so he was made to change his list on the spot, and the other was DQed for having dice with the 2's drilled and painted to look like 5's so that he couldn't roll 2's with Tzeentch Daemons.

So, I guess, uh... everyone's a winner?

What was illegal about the list? Over in points?

Sevrin Loth was included in a White Scars detachment, apparently. Feast Facebook page said they got it wrong by letting him change up his list in the last game and apologized.

What use are the results of the tournament? Both finalists got there illegitimately and weren't caught until they vanquished ten opponents. That throws the entire thing into disarray. You think if you lost to Boucher and finished 20th that you would feel your placing has any legitimacy?

slaede wrote:

What use are the results of the tournament? Both finalists got there illegitimately and weren't caught until they vanquished ten opponents. That throws the entire thing into disarray. You think if you lost to Boucher and finished 20th that you would feel your placing has any legitimacy?

The only reason that matters if you think the overall winner of a tournament is the only thing that matters, which is most certainly not the case seeing that is the biggest event to allow just about everything.

So yes, I could care less about the cheaters, but I would love to find out more about everything else.

Yakface, the only thing I'm getting from you is that cheating is ok as long as everybody had fun.

Everybody didn't have fun. The guys who caught them have spoken. They won't be going back next year.

Really curious about the T. C'tans performance amongst other uber-LoW?

 Julnlecs wrote:
Yakface, the only thing I'm getting from you is that cheating is ok as long as everybody had fun.

Everybody didn't have fun. The guys who caught them have spoken. They won't be going back next year.

You can choose to interpret what I said in any manner you like, but the above summary isn't at all what I was saying.

What I'm saying is that people love to talk endlessly about cheating. You could easily have 10 pages about people saying the same things about cheaters.

I could care less about talking about cheaters. People that need to cheat to win toy soldier games are pathetic and if it can be confirmed that they knowingly cheated, then they should be banned, plain and simple.

But my point was:

Regardless of whether there were cheaters in the event or even if they managed to win, there is still lots more things of interest to actually discuss about the event, since this was quite a unique set of event rules (compared to other events)…so I would love for people that were there to actually talk about other parts of the event, because frankly there isn't any more to say about cheating that hasn't already been said a billion times over.

I agree with Yackface. I want to know how the T-C'tan played, and other super heavies/Lords of War in a standard game.

 Fxeni wrote:

slaede wrote:
Well, one finalist was found to have made it to round 6 with an illegal list (white scars with Sevrin Loth stuck in there) so he was made to change his list on the spot, and the other was DQed for having dice with the 2's drilled and painted to look like 5's so that he couldn't roll 2's with Tzeentch Daemons.

So, I guess, uh... everyone's a winner?

Which player drilled their dice? Inquiring GT organizers wish to know for future reference if this player attends.

It should be noted that I said he had drilled dice. I didn't say he drilled them himself. He says he bought a bucket of used dice on Ebay and didn't know. I've personally played Kenny at ATC and found him a fine fellow and a skilled player. However, being a Tzeentch Daemon player myself, and knowing how much rolling 2's happens to be bad for Tzeentch Daemons with 3+ saves and Grimoires, I can't help but be given pause.

No C'Tans at all. There was a Warhound, 400pt Stompa that a lot of players questioned how he got it at 400pts, the 999pt FW Lord of Change to which I drew for round 1 and couldn't do anything to. No Adaman Lance, someone had draigo and that was practically it for LoW that I saw in lists. There were only 32 players so if felt more like a RTT then the actual Invitational it was the past 4 years. Missions were interesting which can be found on the FOB website. Terrain this year included a massive Cathedral centerpiece that was 15"x 10" and 10"+ in height.

Wish it was as big as last year but feeling many places don't want to pay to host a qualifier. Felt the switch from No LoW/Esc/SH/FW in the quals to everything in the Invitational was a bit much. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed 6 of my 8 Games played this weekend, I just don't feel at 1500pts its a good Idea to include everything in the game. I think Originally thats what the Open GT was meant for at FoB. In the future, I'd hope they keep the Qual the same as the Invitational for restrictions on lists even if it were to allow LoW, be it Codex only ones.

slaede wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

What was illegal about the list? Over in points?

Sevrin Loth was included in a White Scars detachment, apparently. Feast Facebook page said they got it wrong by letting him change up his list in the last game and apologized.

Isn't FoB one of the few events that still required and approved lists in advance? If so, then how should they have handled it? I did go read their list construction requirements, leaves a bit to be desired for clarity. Not defending whatever did/did not happen, just musing.

 punchdub wrote:

slaede wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

What was illegal about the list? Over in points?

Sevrin Loth was included in a White Scars detachment, apparently. Feast Facebook page said they got it wrong by letting him change up his list in the last game and apologized.

Isn't FoB one of the few events that still required and approved lists in advance? If so, then how should they have handled it? I did go read their list construction requirements, leaves a bit to be desired for clarity. Not defending whatever did/did not happen, just musing.

I dunno, but if only 32 people showed up, I'd say making stores pay to host a qualifier and running a mostly unrestricted tournament where C'tan shards are legal does not appear to be a recipe for success. Or it could be that 7e is just that terrible that tourney attendance is getting hit. Only 7 showed up to the local Feast qualifier in Phoenix. Nobody showed for an RTT this past Saturday.

Wait, wait, wait. The Transcendent is supposed to be so OP, that when allowed, everyone will take one, and butt hurt will be had by all. How can this be?

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tournament/Feast-of-Blades-Open-2014/3/leaderboard

Is the only one posted on ToF so far.

With so many lists to check and the complexity of the lists now, things can fall through the cracks.

So I was in the Open and talked to Kenny after the games. When I asked how his games went, he let me know how it all went down for him. When he told me he bought a grab bag of dice on ebay and some of them them ended up being "messed up", I believed him. I've known Kenny for a while now and he's a straight shooter. I also spoke with his opponent who told me he played Kenny TWICE on the weekend and never thought anything was a miss. Here's the thing, there were only 2-3 dice that were in question and Kenny's opponent(I think his name was Josh) said to me that Kenny would reach into his box without looking grabbing random dice to use for rolls. Random being big dice, small sice, whatever, it was a grab bag. So the chances of pulling those "rigged dice" when there were not that many are very low.

On the whole attendance was down but I think every tournament so far except Adepticon has been the same way. 7th ed I guess? lot's of different reasons I suppose. I can't speak for the lists in the Invitational other than it was pointed out to me that between ALL the players, there were only 6-7 wave serpents? Impressive. In the Open there were a few crazy things in people's list but not too over the top I think. A few superheavies like a Shadowsword, a Fellblade, a Big Mek Stompa, and a Harridan was even flying around on one of the tables. Overall it was a great event like every year I've gone, just attendance was down is all.

I don't understand what was so hard to understand about the whole situation on the part of the TOs. If someone is found to be doing something prohibited by the rules, they should be immediately DQ'd from the event and their wins vacated. It makes no difference if it was intentional or not. I don't believe people should be banned permanently, because mistakes are made. If you are DQ'd in multiple events than bans may become necessary, but as far as this tournament goes I think a valuable lesson on tournament preparation may be the appropriate punishment. I don't know Kenny or Josh well enough to make a judgement on who they are, and I don't condemn them. If it was a mistake, it is one they won't make again.if it wasn't, then it's a mistake the community won't let happen again (without consequences).
All that being said, I've said this on another site and I'll say it here. The outrage isn't about trophies, victories, or prizes. It's about the investment I make as a player to fly, stay, and participate away from my home, girlfriend, and job. I spent nearly $500 on this trip. I played 7 games and enjoyed all of them - including the one I played against Kenny. I thought the TOs were great, hard working, and deserve recognition for the efforts they put forth to run a great event. But in my eyes my event is tarnished by the actions (accidental or otherwise) of a few, but more importantly, the lack of appropriate consequences on the part of the organizers. I know they were put in a tough spot, and it's clear they weren't prepared to handle it. I hope that all future tournaments develop plans and are prepared to enforce them, even if it means booting someone from the top table and handing the trophy to the next guy (or in this case, the next-next guy). Until then, I won't be giving anyone my $75 to feel like I wasn't given a fair shake at winning, as everyone should receive.

Then you will never attend a gt again, every event for any game will have someone do something shady or against the rules either on purpose or accidentally. TOs will never catch everything. There is also no good response beyond dqing the player going forward. Any retroactive awarding of wins messes up the whole event.
I thought they did DQ Kenny what else really needs to be done? Retroactively give all his opponents wins, and max points? IMO that is way less fair to everyone else, as it is unlikely that that would have actually happened.

Lesson here which should have been learned am while ago. Don't buy random bags of dice or at least check them if you do. Also events can provide dice if you really want to cut down on this issue.

So I like Kenny and listen to his podcast, but I have to say the whitewashing that is going on here is disturbing. The player at Beakycon was essentially crucified by Blood of Kittens and posters here. He was shamed into quitting 40k. The posts went on for weeks. The player had the exact same circumstances as Kenny. I'm all for forgiveness not the faux rage that went on before. Players should be DQ'd and that should be the end of it.

Why was Kenny called out for the dice ?

I am a avid listener of the podcast. I like the FTN crew however in this case I feel Kenny needs to prove his innocence. EBay receipt, the original listing, etc.... I am really bummed out by this. The FTN crew helped design the missions for FOB as well.
No part of this is ok. If you are caught with a smoking gun you need to do more then apologize. You must prove you didn't know. Its embarrassing to the game and if it was me I'd be doing more then saying sorry.

So where can we get the actual results? I heard pure DE came in 4th. I would love to see the list!

Breng77 wrote:
Then you will never attend a gt again, every event for any game will have someone do something shady or against the rules either on purpose or accidentally. TOs will never catch everything. There is also no good response beyond dqing the player going forward. Any retroactive awarding of wins messes up the whole event.
I thought they did DQ Kenny what else really needs to be done? Retroactively give all his opponents wins, and max points? IMO that is way less fair to everyone else, as it is unlikely that that would have actually happened.

Lesson here which should have been learned am while ago. Don't buy random bags of dice or at least check them if you do. Also events can provide dice if you really want to cut down on this issue.

Kenny wasn't the only one Breng. Joshua used an illegal list for most of his games. He was called out on it and all the judges did was allow him to change his list mid tournament and continue playing like nothing was wrong. He then ended up winning the invitational. Rules clearly said you could only take 2 sources and he took 3.

That certainly does suck and he also should have been DQ'd from awards and made to remove the offending model from his list. I'm not saying everything was done perfectly. Just saying that you cannot go back and award wins and points to their old opponents, it just does not work. It's one of the reasons I check lists ahead of time, and they should have done so for the invite at least (larger event list checking is difficult.)

Checking lists was part of their requirements in the rules. It still wasnt caught by the TO.s til mid tournament.

suggests lists were just checked for points, not for legality. But I was not involved in anyway, so I cannot speak to that really.

It sucks, but it won't be the last time something like this happends, nor the first.

Anyone know what Matthew Alle's Orks list was? He came in second, apparently.

This whole thing sucks because they're pre-tournament issues.
This isn't a case where an Iron Halo is magically a 3++ or someone is moving bases front to back; i.e. in-game cheating.
Easily preventable.

1. I've always been an advocate for GTs and large events to provide dice for people. Make it part of the entry fee, make the 6 a custom logo for the event, and call it good. Or hell, just give everyone a cube of GW or Chessex dice.
2. The list issue is a T.O. failure*. Lists are submitted prior to the tournament, and should be vetted by multiple organizers for QA. I don't know how they failed in this...unless they were just checking the block. Granted, the new rules/supplements/dataslates and so on the GW keeps rolling out don't make this easy.

*T.O.s have a tough job, and they're not infallible, I got it.

Does this mean someone can use a 6.5" straightedge that's labeled 6" and it's "all good" because they "bought it from someone else?"

You're responsible for all the stuff you bring with you to a tournament, it doesn't matter where you bought it. It "came" from your carrying case you brought to this game.

I find it comical people feel the need to cheat at man dolls.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I find it comical people feel the need to cheat at man dolls.

I find this very comical indeed.

regarding the dice.

Obviously it happened multiple times, as the 5 and 2 are across from each other the only way someone would notice would be if the player never rolled 2s, or hardly rolled 2s.

the player in question would have had to been using the cheating dice the majority of the time for it to be caught, it would not have been a one or two time thing.

given it is a "large grab bag of dice" this means the player was intentionally setting the dice back in the bag to take when he needed to not roll 2s, or the majority of the dice were rigged.

given its not hard to tell when something is wrong with dice, it sounds like a lot of white washing of someone being a cheat.

regardless it would still be neat to see lists and results, the non cheating player results are still relavent, as well as there would be interest in seeing what % of army factions were present and how they all placed overall.

regarding tournaments- many tournaments used to supply the dice to be used, I still think its a good idea and would gladly pay extra, especially if the dice were special somehow and marked the event.

Edit-Would love to see the nid list that placed 3rd, and ork lists that placed High.

I am guessing the 400pt ork stompa is the mekstompa or some such, not sure its legal for use according to FW currently fwiw, but not sure been a while since I looked at its rules.

Is all this cheating and bad lists speculation or is it true? If true and it went on very long, how can the tournament have a winner in a field where almost half of the players played against illegal stuff? That's too bad. I'm sure a lot of people traveled a long distance to play there only for this to happen.. really stinks.

I can only speak for the Open lists and what I saw in it. I didn't pay much attention to what was the invitational.

Matt's Orks from memory:
Forgeworld Warboss-skilled rider to unit, scout, Init 4 powerclaw guy.
2 Warbosses with claws
Big Mek on bike with shokk attack gun.
3 units of 10-15 lootas each( cant remember how much each)
Unit of boys on foot- 20-30ish
1 max size unit of warbikers for all 3 warbosses to go in. 1 of em had lucky stikk!!!
3-5 man bike squads with nobs w/claws.
3 coptas

The tyranid list was an unbound flying circus if I remember right. I didn't fight it though so don't know the particulars. 3 Flyrants and I think the FW new Tyranid MC.

So I am a bit surprised by the reaction here. The TO's are doing the best they can and 40k is a complicated game where people make mistakes and sometimes will be able to catch cheating and sometimes you will not.

On the dice issue. That is cheating pure and simple. I think you have to treat it as a strict liability crime (meaning it is irrelevant if the person had the intention to cheat or not). The person when caught is immediately DQ'd and not eligible for any prize support. If it's only discovered at the end of the event all you can do is remove the person from the rankings. If discovered early (first game) opponent gets the win and the cheating player not allowed to participate for the rest of the event period. Any game that has happened without being caught results stay the same (no other option). If caught mid game that player gets the win.

For the player, if no intent people should accept his apology and welcome him at future events. If there is a history of cheating, then you can talk about not allowing him to enter events.

For the list construction issue. That should have been caught by the first opponent/TO's. If caught before dice are rolled let the person change his list as it almost certainly is just a misunderstanding. If the person cannot change their list than let him play (as this may be on the TO's fault )but no prize support and he is auto placed on the bottom table. If not caught until the end or after the first game, DQ the player from prize support and awards and have him change the list to make it legal going forward if possible andt have him play on bottom table because that at that point should just be for fun anyway.

I watched a good deal of Kenny's final two games (via the live stream) and he didn't win those games because of one loaded die. He won those games with superior tactics.

I'm in the camp that he didn't actually know he had a loaded die. My reason...he had the finals game well in hand from turn 3 onward. If he knew he had a loaded die...why would he leave it laying around for someone to potentially see when the game was obviously his to lose? He doesn't put me in the mind of a WAAC player (his and everyone's attitude at FTN seems 100% against WAAC), but if he were, he'd have swallowed that die after turn 3 of the finals.

Either way, the list snafu is the bigger issue. No matter what the TOs thought was the right move, the player should have DQd himself (as Kenny did when the die was discovered) or tweaked his list to get rid of the 3rd source. I personally would have been mortified and just dropped out of the competition, but that's just me...

Potential future dice fix: Everyone use the same dice. Whether there tournament provided or you bring your own, both players play with the same dice.

Potential future list fix: TOs need to pay attention to the lists at their tournaments??? Seems reasonable enough.

I will say that the Indy Open provided a dice pool at each table last year (2013 I think) and it was pretty awesome. While I love my dice I don't mind using an open pool.

Bummer....

I feel bad for the TO's - who put a lot of time and effort into organizing the event - then get bad press.

I feel bad for the player who is being questioned on dice. Most likely an honest mistake - there will be doubters regardless, but if you read his post - sounds like a honest mistake and he feels pretty bad about it.

Feel bad for the guy with the list. If you submit a list and it is ok by TO's - you should feel like you are good to go. Sure that is an honest mistake as well.

Would like to see the lists that were played and see/read some good battle reports. 7th and Tourneys are still pretty new - and hope they continue to grow and improve.

This was posted on Kenny's Next Level Painting FB page:

"This weekend I had a blast at feast of blades. It was simply amazing. Everyone was awesome. There was however a dice issue. I am humiliated and embarrassed that this has occurred. I did not know that there were illegal dice in my dice box. It was simply a mistake on my part. I know this is only an excuse, and no one has any reason to believe me. I purchased a party pack of dice on eBay. It was a random assortment of dice. The seller listed it simply as "one pound of randomly selected dice". 40k is more to me than simply winning. I have played for over 10 years and have professionally painted over 100 armies. For me, 40k is about hanging out with great friends and having a great weekend together while playing 40k. I often talk about there being a social-contract between each player for our 2-plus hour games. I am humiliated that I did not inspect my dice when I bought them and violated this social-contract with all of my opponents this weekend. I will now always inspect my dice and promise to show this amazing community that this situation is not indicative of me or my behavior. To my mother- who watched watched all of my streaming games this weekend, my brother, my friends, this community, and most importantly my opponents; I am sorry. This will never happen again."-Kenny

Breng77 wrote:
Then you will never attend a gt again, every event for any game will have someone do something shady or against the rules either on purpose or accidentally. TOs will never catch everything. There is also no good response beyond dqing the player going forward. Any retroactive awarding of wins messes up the whole event.
I thought they did DQ Kenny what else really needs to be done? Retroactively give all his opponents wins, and max points? IMO that is way less fair to everyone else, as it is unlikely that that would have actually happened.

Lesson here which should have been learned am while ago. Don't buy random bags of dice or at least check them if you do. Also events can provide dice if you really want to cut down on this issue.

I thought I made it clear that I wasn't as upset with the people accused of cheating but by the tournaments response to what happened. You can't eliminate all cheating, that's understood. But when it is exposed and you allow it to continue, you show you are unwilling to do what it takes to run a successful event. I didn't say go back and change all the standings, I merely said vacate their wins (they were using torrent of fire - all results should have been changed to losses and removed from the overall results).

So here is the thing. In this case I agree both players should be DQ'd (I don't care much about other wins, if they can get removed from torrent go ahead and do it (not sure that a double loss is possible in torrent though having used it, so changing one player to a loss means the other player wins.). Beyonds that sure DQ the guilty parties if you want for mistakes that were made, and give the prizes to other people. I'm just saying as a TO I know that my first GT had a "cheat" win the best general prize. Guy was playing rules wrong the whole event, but was never brought to my attention until the event was over. It happens. From my understanding it was exposed during the last game, so sure you could DQ both players at that point and have the next guys take the crown.

Kenny Got DQ'd as for the List issue, if the event was supposed to check lists, and let it through is that the players fault, or the events? It is kind of both, player for sending the list with a mistake in it, and event for not catching it. So when it comes up is it fair for the event that said "You're list is legal" to say sorry we screwed up and you are DQ'd.

Situation sucks all around.

Illegal list is illegal.

I find it funny that BoLS isn't reporting on cheating at a major tourney. They always seem eager to do it when there's an issue at nova...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Illegal list is illegal.

and your line of reasoning says Cheater dice are for cheaters....whats your point

 Julnlecs wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
.

Kenny wasn't the only one Breng. Joshua used an illegal list for most of his games. He was called out on it and all the judges did was allow him to change his list mid tournament and continue playing like nothing was wrong. He then ended up winning the invitational. Rules clearly said you could only take 2 sources and he took 3.

TOs should have caught it before tourney ( but they have a hard job) and once caught all games are forfeit.

and with the loaded dice (no mater guilt or innocence) the punishment was appropriate because a DQ is really all that is warranted.

However regardless of guilt no one should be shamed and forced from the game like the beaky con player was, people make mistakes in life ................their should be redemption especially in toy soldiers.

For.those.curious about lists, there was a lot of variety. One DE, SoB, GK (Centurion Star), Black Templars, Tau. Not a lot of spam lists. Only one titan, several knights but no knight primaries. The top Ork list was the 100 ork formation and it did well.

Sisters? Somebody took Sisters? Cool! How did they do?

zedsdead wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Illegal list is illegal.

and your line of reasoning says Cheater dice are for cheaters....whats your point

This is one of the reasons I enjoyed your policy zed of providing pretty amazing dice so everyone uses the same stuff. The whole situation is unfortunate and really puts a stain on FoB which from everyone I've talked to that has attended says is usually an amazing event and outside of this particular situation was an amazing event. I'm surprised people would say they won't be attending again because of it.

I took Sisters w/ a Knight Paladin. Got Kenny down to a squad of Daemonettes in the first round but he had points advantage and won, beat GK Centurion Star round 2, lost to a White Scars army (had him down to 3 bikes and one had the relic), beat DE in the last placement round and ended up in Bracket 3 on tiebreakers. First round beat Black Templars drop pod army w/ LR, second round beat a Necron list featuring two Command Barges, 3 Annihilation barges, 1 night scythe and 2 Ghost Arks. He played well but my range and outflanking/deep strike managed to overcome his fail at killing the knight with practically his whole.army shooting it turn 3. Last round of bracket 3 I lost to my friend John Capson who played Invisibility-star of 7 bright glances, 3 wave serpents, WK. He kept it all in reserve aside from the star and was able to grab 3/5 objectives to secure the win (I lost two units and he didn't lose any).

I've played in plenty of GT level events, but I've never been to Feast of Blades, and I don't know the guys who run it, but this list thing seems like an honest mistake on all parts. I'm not sure what this new-found fascination with attacking whoever manages to do well in big tournaments, but I don't think it's good for the hobby.

It's a weird coincidence if he had dice that randomly ended up in his bag without twos and he was playing Tzeentch (if I heard correctly earlier). Isn't that the one that lets you reroll ones but not twos?

This wasn't because someone did well, it was due to a list being outside of the rules.of the tournament. As far as Kenny playing Tzeentch, he didn't have any heralds or Grimoire in his list. He had two CSM Sorcerers and Belakor, and never rolled a single save on the Daemonettes. (In our game).

 pretre wrote:
It's a weird coincidence if he had dice that randomly ended up in his bag without twos and he was playing Tzeentch (if I heard correctly earlier). Isn't that the one that lets you reroll ones but not twos?

I don't have an opinion on this; I spoke with Chandler about how Feast in general went, and I trust him to do the best he can by his event.

I will say that this was the WORST possible # for Kenny to've had in his bag, presuming it was just an unlucky purchase. Five is a MAJOR # to roll on both Malefic and Telepathy psychic powers, as well as the aforementioned value of it from a Tzeentch perspective, and there are numerous other examples from the current game where rolling 5 = awesome. It also stands out less than 1's and 6's. If you roll 10 dice and 5 of them are 5's while three of them are 1's, you'll hear someone complain or cheer about the improbable odds of rolling 3 1's in only 10 dice, but not say a word about half of the results being 5. Same would be true of 3's and 4's.

I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt, and as a TO have no doubt Chandler and co did the best they could, but I do think it sucks for Kenny if this was an honest mistake that the # was a 5, and that the couple dice in his bag were all doubled up on the 5's (i.e., it didn't randomly include some dice with double 6's, and some with double 5's, etc., but all of the "bad" dice were double 5's).

Celestine4thewin wrote:This wasn't because someone did well, it was due to a list being outside of the rules.of the tournament. As far as Kenny playing Tzeentch, he didn't have any heralds or Grimoire in his list. He had two CSM Sorcerers and Belakor, and never rolled a single save on the Daemonettes. (In our game).

Aha, good to know.

@MVB: Yeah. I mean, it is very possible that it went down as he said, but still. Even if it did, it seems crazy that he wouldn't notice and that the dice would be coincidentally set up like that. Even if it's a coincidence, it's the worst possible thing to happen to him.

The thing is that the number 5 is the only one where the other number wont show up on one of the sides while also being able to drill it with the normal placement of pips.

So there is no way to really see it unless you actively look at it closely. So it is quite understandable how both players would not notice at all.

For kenny it would have required that he closely examined every one of the random dice(anyone here actually do that?)

It doesn't seem crazy pretre it actually seems pretty logical, I have hundreds of dice and grab random handfuls usually to bring to games/tournaments. I've never once inspected mine or anyone else dice because I thought they're was something odd about them. It seems crazy to me someone even caught the fact that they were altered. I guess that's just me though. And it is super unfortunate for Kenny, he seems like a solid dude who genuinely likes the competition in a non waac way.

Chancetragedy wrote:
It doesn't seem crazy pretre it actually seems pretty logical, I have hundreds of dice and grab random handfuls usually to bring to games/tournaments. I've never once inspected mine or anyone else dice because I thought they're was something odd about them. It seems crazy to me someone even caught the fact that they were altered. I guess that's just me though. And it is super unfortunate for Kenny, he seems like a solid dude who genuinely likes the competition in a non waac way.

I guess that people handle things differently. I like nice matching sets of dice for tournaments: a cube of chessex, or a bag of dakka dice. Either way, it's really unusual to have some very specifically modified dice mixed into your dice. I own pounds of dice as well for 40k, D&D and other games and I'm willing to bet there aren't any loaded ones in there.

Awhile ago I bought a whole bunch of game science dice on Amazon. Anyway I played with them for about a year before one of opponents pointed out that on a handful of them the opposite sides didn't add up to seven. I was shocked and had never noticed that before.

Is it the same as having dice that don't roll twos and will roll more fives and than anything? No, of course not, but it does show that even at high end dice manufactures issues happen.

We only identified as modified after we were sitting around BSing and I was rolling it and after about 10 minutes we were just like "wow this dice rolls crazy...", then another random player realized we hadn't rolled a single 2. It wasn't during a game, I had found it under the table I played Kenny on. I have no idea if he used it in the game, but he didn't roll insane so who knows. I will repeat that he didn't act like a cheat when we played and I didn't notice home specifically grabbing the dice (there were several in the box) in specific situations. I'm inclined to.give him the benefit of the doubt on his intentions, but dropping from the tournament was the only proper move.

I just want to get a little clarification- so Kenny wasn't caught using the die and dropped out of the tourney of his own will? or was he caught in the game using it?

BeeCee wrote:
I just want to get a little clarification- so Kenny wasn't caught using the die and dropped out of the tourney of his own will? or was he caught in the game using it?

Kenny here
I am the one with the cheater dice. I just wanted to weigh in here. Arron (great guy I played with sisiters) turned in a suspicious dice to the TO. They brought it to my attention and I immediately agreed to have my cigar box of about 120 dice inspected. The inspection revield one more dice like the one turned in(could be wrong about the number,they had me walk away). I obviously waw DQ'd and immediately reminded them that I played in the doubles tournament the day before and did well in that event too....and reminded them to QD'd me and my partner who i shared some dice with. I will talk more on this during our podcast and webcasts. Feel free to contact me for more details.
With sincerest apologies
Kenny

BeeCee wrote:
I just want to get a little clarification- so Kenny wasn't caught using the die and dropped out of the tourney of his own will? or was he caught in the game using it?

Correct, the dice was found on the floor. He didn't know about it and wasn't specifically going for any dice but instead dropped out of the tourney out of his own free will esp it was brought to his attention. It asn't brought to his attention till the final table where as you saw Celestine4thewin is the one who reported it.

Hello,

I was the one with the list issues and I would like to say something in regards.

I have watched the backlash over the past 24 hours in regards to the Feast of Blades Invitational this year and feel that at this point I needed to step up and say a couple of things.

I contacted the FoB staff in regards to what I was going to run for the invitational this year a couple of times to make sure that I was running my list the way they wanted. I know that 7th edition has created a situation where there is an exorbitant amount of information and sources out there to choose from when building a list and it can get confusing.

When in the 6th round the head judge brought it to my attention that the list I was running was not a valid list as per their rules, I asked what they wanted me to do about it. I was told that I would need to modify my list to make it legal. I asked how they wanted me to modify my list that they would be comfortable with the changes and was told to remove enough from the list to add one troop choice to the list from the Red Scorpions chapter to make the Red Scorpions character I was using a legal allied detachment. So I made the appropriate changes to my list.

I took a couple of minutes to ask the head judges whether they felt it would be better overall for the tournament if I stepped down and forfeited right then and was told that the changes that were made were done so I can play it out, and that I should play if I wanted to play. I am not going to lie when I say that I really wanted to play and so with their endorsement I played on. I came to this tournament with the intent to play a legal list and thought I was. Obviously there was a miscommunication somewhere before the tournament occurred as I thought I was doing so. It was never my intent to take advantage of the tournament or to "cheat" in any way.

The fact that now the integrity of the Feast of Blades staff has been called into question along with myself, my team, and others has made if very clear to me that maintaining that integrity and the integrity of this community is far more important than a pretty trophy (and it is pretty) and a couple boxes of Eldar that I got as a prize.

I feel that the only thing I can do to assist in trying to fix the issue that has arisen as a result of this past weekend is to step down as the winner of the Feast of Blades and give my prize support to Vince (I can't remember his last name) from El Paso, TX. He was running a beautiful Daemon list led by the Forgeworld Lord of Change (the 999 point one). If by chance anyone on any of these forums knows how to contact Vince and let him know to get in contact with me I would be more than happy to send him the trophy and prize support from the event. He fought well and played hard and is truly deserving of the prize.

The only other thing I can do is offer my deepest apologies to any individuals that came to this event and felt they didn't get their fair shot. I sincerely do apologize to you for any wrong you feel victim of. I know it costs a lot to go to these events, I spent a hefty sum myself coming out to this one. And I know that feeling like you got cheated hurts and can even make some question whether it is worth making the trip again. I can only pray that what I am saying here will fall on open ears and hearts and you will know that these events are still worth going to and such a great time to have been able to experience.

I have held to the motto for years in my life that "I don't judge people by the mistakes they make in life, but how they deal with those mistakes." I am hoping that I have dealt with this mistake as best I can. I hope to have a chance to come back next year and make a good showing for both my team and the Feast.

As far as my games with Kenny. I had such an amazing two games with Kenny this weekend and I refuse to believe there was EVER any intent behind whatever may have been found in regards to his dice. He was an amazing opponent both time we played and I would love the opportunity to play again. Hope to see you again Kenny. Sorry about this weekend.

Takes a lot to step up and do something like this, Josh. Well done, especially considering all of the circumstances. I had a blast at FoB, it was fun, well run, and I plan on coming back again next year.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
This was posted on Kenny's Next Level Painting FB page:

"This weekend I had a blast at feast of blades. It was simply amazing. Everyone was awesome. There was however a dice issue. I am humiliated and embarrassed that this has occurred. I did not know that there were illegal dice in my dice box. It was simply a mistake on my part. I know this is only an excuse, and no one has any reason to believe me. I purchased a party pack of dice on eBay. It was a random assortment of dice. The seller listed it simply as "one pound of randomly selected dice". 40k is more to me than simply winning. I have played for over 10 years and have professionally painted over 100 armies. For me, 40k is about hanging out with great friends and having a great weekend together while playing 40k. I often talk about there being a social-contract between each player for our 2-plus hour games. I am humiliated that I did not inspect my dice when I bought them and violated this social-contract with all of my opponents this weekend. I will now always inspect my dice and promise to show this amazing community that this situation is not indicative of me or my behavior. To my mother- who watched watched all of my streaming games this weekend, my brother, my friends, this community, and most importantly my opponents; I am sorry. This will never happen again."-Kenny

I have known Kenny for a couple of years and was shocked when his name came up as someone with funny die. It is very much outside his MO as he is typically a nice and honest guy who would rather go pew pew with models and drink a cold one rather than win a game. He also has an investment in this hobby as his career is based on his reputation. For what it is worth I will put myself behind Kenny and back him up and chalk this off to an honest mistake. He just is not that kind of guy that will cheat.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Yep, found the thread. It was BeakyCon 2012 with supposedly member of the Wrecking Crew using a weighted dice for his go first or seize rolls.

As for the event I'm also interested in the results and what people thought about the format.

It was not a member of the WRECKING CREW, it was a guy from south florida, there were several WRECKING CREW members there. I actually played and beat the guy with the dice, never noticed that it was being used. The dice in question was inspected later that night in the hotel and we all determined with a very scientific method( roll it a bunch of times while drinking) that it was wieghted. The guy using it was not in contention to win anything but the middle of the pack award. Had tons of random dice, he was DQed and hasnt been seen playing 40k since.

So no these two incidents are not related and no Kenny was not at Beaky Con.

Just putting a little truth to the statement.

I did say supposedly. That was what was in the previous thread here. I knew it wasn't Kenny at that event.

Every time I've met or seen Kenny he's seemed like a stand up dude (when he wasn't to drunk to stand ). As rando as it was I would have given him a pass based on his history alone and seeing how he attends events. It's why I was a bit shocked it was his name honestly.

I love Kenny and those amazing GUNS he sports, as well as his fine hat. The only issue I see is that he just happened to be playing a list the SPECIFICALLY fails rolls on a 2 and the dice he bought had the 2's replaced by 5's. I'm sure that is just coincidence but can we all agree that it is one HELL of a coincidence?

/ducks into the bushes.

Joshua.Dearth wrote:Hello,

I was the one with the list issues and I would like to say something in regards.

I have watched the backlash over the past 24 hours in regards to the Feast of Blades Invitational this year and feel that at this point I needed to step up and say a couple of things.

I contacted the FoB staff in regards to what I was going to run for the invitational this year a couple of times to make sure that I was running my list the way they wanted. I know that 7th edition has created a situation where there is an exorbitant amount of information and sources out there to choose from when building a list and it can get confusing.

When in the 6th round the head judge brought it to my attention that the list I was running was not a valid list as per their rules, I asked what they wanted me to do about it. I was told that I would need to modify my list to make it legal. I asked how they wanted me to modify my list that they would be comfortable with the changes and was told to remove enough from the list to add one troop choice to the list from the Red Scorpions chapter to make the Red Scorpions character I was using a legal allied detachment. So I made the appropriate changes to my list.

I took a couple of minutes to ask the head judges whether they felt it would be better overall for the tournament if I stepped down and forfeited right then and was told that the changes that were made were done so I can play it out, and that I should play if I wanted to play. I am not going to lie when I say that I really wanted to play and so with their endorsement I played on. I came to this tournament with the intent to play a legal list and thought I was. Obviously there was a miscommunication somewhere before the tournament occurred as I thought I was doing so. It was never my intent to take advantage of the tournament or to "cheat" in any way.

The fact that now the integrity of the Feast of Blades staff has been called into question along with myself, my team, and others has made if very clear to me that maintaining that integrity and the integrity of this community is far more important than a pretty trophy (and it is pretty) and a couple boxes of Eldar that I got as a prize.

I feel that the only thing I can do to assist in trying to fix the issue that has arisen as a result of this past weekend is to step down as the winner of the Feast of Blades and give my prize support to Vince (I can't remember his last name) from El Paso, TX. He was running a beautiful Daemon list led by the Forgeworld Lord of Change (the 999 point one). If by chance anyone on any of these forums knows how to contact Vince and let him know to get in contact with me I would be more than happy to send him the trophy and prize support from the event. He fought well and played hard and is truly deserving of the prize.

The only other thing I can do is offer my deepest apologies to any individuals that came to this event and felt they didn't get their fair shot. I sincerely do apologize to you for any wrong you feel victim of. I know it costs a lot to go to these events, I spent a hefty sum myself coming out to this one. And I know that feeling like you got cheated hurts and can even make some question whether it is worth making the trip again. I can only pray that what I am saying here will fall on open ears and hearts and you will know that these events are still worth going to and such a great time to have been able to experience.

I have held to the motto for years in my life that "I don't judge people by the mistakes they make in life, but how they deal with those mistakes." I am hoping that I have dealt with this mistake as best I can. I hope to have a chance to come back next year and make a good showing for both my team and the Feast.

As far as my games with Kenny. I had such an amazing two games with Kenny this weekend and I refuse to believe there was EVER any intent behind whatever may have been found in regards to his dice. He was an amazing opponent both time we played and I would love the opportunity to play again. Hope to see you again Kenny. Sorry about this weekend.

Joshua.Dearth wrote:Hello,

I was the one with the list issues and I would like to say something in regards.

I have watched the backlash over the past 24 hours in regards to the Feast of Blades Invitational this year and feel that at this point I needed to step up and say a couple of things.

I contacted the FoB staff in regards to what I was going to run for the invitational this year a couple of times to make sure that I was running my list the way they wanted. I know that 7th edition has created a situation where there is an exorbitant amount of information and sources out there to choose from when building a list and it can get confusing.

When in the 6th round the head judge brought it to my attention that the list I was running was not a valid list as per their rules, I asked what they wanted me to do about it. I was told that I would need to modify my list to make it legal. I asked how they wanted me to modify my list that they would be comfortable with the changes and was told to remove enough from the list to add one troop choice to the list from the Red Scorpions chapter to make the Red Scorpions character I was using a legal allied detachment. So I made the appropriate changes to my list.

I took a couple of minutes to ask the head judges whether they felt it would be better overall for the tournament if I stepped down and forfeited right then and was told that the changes that were made were done so I can play it out, and that I should play if I wanted to play. I am not going to lie when I say that I really wanted to play and so with their endorsement I played on. I came to this tournament with the intent to play a legal list and thought I was. Obviously there was a miscommunication somewhere before the tournament occurred as I thought I was doing so. It was never my intent to take advantage of the tournament or to "cheat" in any way.

The fact that now the integrity of the Feast of Blades staff has been called into question along with myself, my team, and others has made if very clear to me that maintaining that integrity and the integrity of this community is far more important than a pretty trophy (and it is pretty) and a couple boxes of Eldar that I got as a prize.

I feel that the only thing I can do to assist in trying to fix the issue that has arisen as a result of this past weekend is to step down as the winner of the Feast of Blades and give my prize support to Vince (I can't remember his last name) from El Paso, TX. He was running a beautiful Daemon list led by the Forgeworld Lord of Change (the 999 point one). If by chance anyone on any of these forums knows how to contact Vince and let him know to get in contact with me I would be more than happy to send him the trophy and prize support from the event. He fought well and played hard and is truly deserving of the prize.

The only other thing I can do is offer my deepest apologies to any individuals that came to this event and felt they didn't get their fair shot. I sincerely do apologize to you for any wrong you feel victim of. I know it costs a lot to go to these events, I spent a hefty sum myself coming out to this one. And I know that feeling like you got cheated hurts and can even make some question whether it is worth making the trip again. I can only pray that what I am saying here will fall on open ears and hearts and you will know that these events are still worth going to and such a great time to have been able to experience.

I have held to the motto for years in my life that "I don't judge people by the mistakes they make in life, but how they deal with those mistakes." I am hoping that I have dealt with this mistake as best I can. I hope to have a chance to come back next year and make a good showing for both my team and the Feast.

As far as my games with Kenny. I had such an amazing two games with Kenny this weekend and I refuse to believe there was EVER any intent behind whatever may have been found in regards to his dice. He was an amazing opponent both time we played and I would love the opportunity to play again. Hope to see you again Kenny. Sorry about this weekend.

Very decent of you Josh! I would love to know your exact list, and why it wasnt legal.

Kimchi - He ran no heralds in his list and no grimoire, so it was not as much of an issue as it may seem.

Also, 2/120 dice with this issue?

Considering Kenny's previous history and what people are saying about him, i would say it was an honest mistake.

So far every person that has met or played him has said he is a great guy and that he is more about having a laugh than winning.

So to be honest, i would have given him a pass as its really does not add up.
His life is built on his reputation, so why risk everything for 2 dodgy dice?

Its not as if 2 dice were enough to influence an entire game when there are over 100 in the pot.





However, this is why i prefer to open a new cube at the start of any tournie as it saves any issues.

This was a 1500 point tournament? Wow....

I have weighted dice I bought off the internet some time ago, along with matching normal dice. Dice can roll high or low. Unless you are really looking at them, you won't notice anything weird in the rolls.

That being said.....I injured my hand a number of years ago. I can't use small dice....well I can but it involves using my off hand which becomes annoying. I almost always make custom dice for my army. It would take a TO or an oppnent a few seconds to determine if dice are valid or not, and be cheaper in the long run for the TO ( ordering dice transporting, distributing etc).

@Joshua.Dearth

I cant agree more with you, we had some battles! I look forward to many more. I'm sure you will have to beg Vince to take the award from you. He is a stand up guy!

I want to say thanks to everyone who has my back on this issue! One day i hope invite you all to enjoy a beer and a shot.
PS: even if you didn't have my back on you are invited.

-Kenny

Did any flying armies do good? How about SW?

I may take up the offer of a drink if i ever cross the water

Never been to the US in my life, but seeing all of the tournie stuff posted across Dakka is enough to make me want to.

The tournaments in the US really do seem to show up the UK as there are rarely any over here, let alone on the same scale.

So i may have to arrange a holiday to get a few games in

I mean seriously he had two dice out of 120, one of which was left on the ground and that is the only way it was found to be bad dice.

On top of that anyone who played him never saw him looking for specific dice to roll.

Yea, legit mistake IMO, I honestly dont see how it could have possibly had such a huge impact on the game if he randomly grabbed those dice.

Edit: Although it doesn't mean much I got your back Kenny. Love the podcast, love the live stream keep going strong.

 Jackal wrote:
I may take up the offer of a drink if i ever cross the water

Never been to the US in my life, but seeing all of the tournie stuff posted across Dakka is enough to make me want to.

The tournaments in the US really do seem to show up the UK as there are rarely any over here, let alone on the same scale.

So i may have to arrange a holiday to get a few games in

You come over here for one and I will go over there for one!

Sounds like a deal to me then Kenny

Just need to find a decent tournament over here 1st.

That and i need to finish off my 2nd ed. nids army (which weighs a bloody ton!) before i can have a proper game again.

arjak15 wrote:
Did any flying armies do good? How about SW?

There was a Space Wolves list w/ Drop Pods, but I don't think it was top half. It didn't have the new flyer. There wasn't a whole lot of flyers, most of them were represented by two lists - one guy brought a Vendetta/Valkyrie/Vulture that I believe contained 6 total fliers and he finished pretty high, and of course Josh's list contained 4 Storm Talons and he made it to the top table (as mentioned in this thread). There were many Daemon Princes and the such, including Bel'akor, but it was actually a fairly thin field as far as fliers are concerned.

What about multi-detachments? I know 1500 points limits things pretty hard, but did many people take 3+ detachments? Were Inquisitors a frequent include like they were at the last Adepticon?

What kind of representation did Lords of War have?

 Reecius wrote:
Takes a lot to step up and do something like this, Josh. Well done, especially considering all of the circumstances. I had a blast at FoB, it was fun, well run, and I plan on coming back again next year.

We all know you where too busy drinking yourself into a coma reece, we know you didnt remember it.

Who was running the green tide, and what was the rest of his list like?

 yakface wrote:

What about multi-detachments? I know 1500 points limits things pretty hard, but did many people take 3+ detachments? Were Inquisitors a frequent include like they were at the last Adepticon?

What kind of representation did Lords of War have?

Ditto, I was really surprised when I heard fob was 1500pts. So far it seems the craziest thing has been the 999pt fw chaos dude.

 yakface wrote:

What about multi-detachments? I know 1500 points limits things pretty hard, but did many people take 3+ detachments? Were Inquisitors a frequent include like they were at the last Adepticon?

What kind of representation did Lords of War have?

The tournament had a 1+1 format, so nobody had more than two detachment. I don't think I saw a single inquisition detachment. There were maybe 5-10 total LoW (including Knights). But only one titan, don't think there were any baneblades and there were no ctan shards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fxeni wrote:
Who was running the green tide, and what was the rest of his list like?

I believe that orksq were tasty, and it was that formation and some grots in a bastion I believe.

I'm pretty sure I know who's behind the 1500pts because last time I was in Colorado, I know they were debating on the points level. I will say that I think 40k going smaller points levels, % restriction, and two lists would make for a different meta and make list chicken oh, so sweet.

Josh is a baller dude and he's really that good. Teach the guy a new game the night before and he'll win a tournament in it the next damn day. Literally. I saw it. Didn't even use his own models... but won some to keep playing! Awesome guy and great looking armies to boot. I 100% believe it's an honest mistake all around.

Played Kenny B once at Feast in '12 I believe. Almost had him... almost. XD Granted I don't know him that well, and shady dice are always skeptical, but after more facts have come in it just seems like the case of worst coincidence ever. I hope better attention is paid in the future, but I do hope GTs don't start enforcing dice purchases and what not off one event mishap.

arjak15 wrote:
Did any flying armies do good? How about SW?

I played the only Pure SW list, and think had 1 of 2 SWs at all in detachments. I didn't expect to be able to attend Feast this year, and if I did was going to buy and play SW. Did poorly with them but what do you expect when I bought and painted over a 2-3 week period with no test games. Played Vince with his 999pt FW Lord of Change game 1 and while intimidating as it was, tried to played the mission and slow down the big bird and didnt do squat that game. Vince clearly clarified anything that needed to be with the 999pt Bird, and it was still a fun game. game 2 and game 5 I played against Pure DE from Utah, my favorite opponent by far because our games turn into narratives practically and we both had fun even if it went bad for one of us a turn. played Tri-tide Tau that I almost pulled a win thanks to Iron Arm on Runepriest with the Relic and came down to rolling a final invuln save at the top of 5 to determine if I would win or not. Played GateGravs w/ Tiggy and Draigo game 4 and played a BT w/ Warhound game 6. Terrain favored my games against Tau and the Warhound, all I could do is roll 2's.

As for Kenny and Everything else. I am hearing about it all 2nd hand as I went home to watch football after my knock out game against the warhound. I've played Kenny multiple times when he was living in the springs and never had the issue of cheating come up, He is just a great player, and out of all the tournaments he has attended this is the first that something like this as happened concerning him to my knowledge. It takes a lot to say what both him and Josh have said and are able to be ok saying it. It also takes a lot for Kenny to respect those in the team tournament for something that happened in the invitational.

I really think it'd be easy and smart for tournies to just provide a dice pool OR require players to use a maximum of 3 dice variants per player.

I was at FoB just watching, not playing, and saw a lot of mixed dice rolls with all different sets of dice. It's stupid annoying and confusing to sit there and stare at weird dice it all kinds of different sizes, colors and pip variants to try and figure out if a frickin' spell went off or not. Also, cheating prevention and such.

 TheKbob wrote:
I hope better attention is paid in the future, but I do hope GTs don't start enforcing dice purchases and what not off one event mishap.

Problem is these aren't "one off" issues. FoB this year.. Beaky Con 2 yrs ago and before that there were others. These problems pop up more often than we like and what these things do is put a bad light on both the player and the host Tournament. Its why for the past 5 years we have had a Dice rule where we supply new dice for everyone to use at the BFS. Its goes a step to protect the integrity of the event as well as the players.. I know its not always popular to make people play with other dice than there own.

Other Tournaments provide dice pools as well which is a great idea too.

Theres always the chance of cheater dice making there way into Tournaments that provide dice.. however I would consider that an easier way of defining intent of the player.

All I can say is protect your Tournament

Hey, any rough idea what Joshua's (i.e. the guy who won) list was? I going into a tourny myself and could do with some inspiration on what to take.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
Takes a lot to step up and do something like this, Josh. Well done, especially considering all of the circumstances. I had a blast at FoB, it was fun, well run, and I plan on coming back again next year.

We all know you where too busy drinking yourself into a coma reece, we know you didnt remember it.

Lol, some truth to that!

Looking forward to having a chance to talk with you at LVO reecius. Hopefully I wont be completely hammered this time......

"Bought them on eBay" Ok, so that is as simple as showing us the transaction within eBay.

Will we see it? I doubt it. Even if he does, it's your job to ensure you're not playing with 'loaded' dice.

Where is your birth certificate? Thanks Obama. =D

Celestine4thewin wrote:
I took Sisters w/ a Knight Paladin. Got Kenny down to a squad of Daemonettes in the first round but he had points advantage and won, beat GK Centurion Star round 2, lost to a White Scars army (had him down to 3 bikes and one had the relic), beat DE in the last placement round and ended up in Bracket 3 on tiebreakers. First round beat Black Templars drop pod army w/ LR, second round beat a Necron list featuring two Command Barges, 3 Annihilation barges, 1 night scythe and 2 Ghost Arks. He played well but my range and outflanking/deep strike managed to overcome his fail at killing the knight with practically his whole.army shooting it turn 3. Last round of bracket 3 I lost to my friend John Capson who played Invisibility-star of 7 bright glances, 3 wave serpents, WK. He kept it all in reserve aside from the star and was able to grab 3/5 objectives to secure the win (I lost two units and he didn't lose any).

 Physh wrote:
I played the only Pure SW list, and think had 1 of 2 SWs at all in detachments. I didn't expect to be able to attend Feast this year, and if I did was going to buy and play SW. Did poorly with them but what do you expect when I bought and painted over a 2-3 week period with no test games. Played Vince with his 999pt FW Lord of Change game 1 and while intimidating as it was, tried to played the mission and slow down the big bird and didnt do squat that game. Vince clearly clarified anything that needed to be with the 999pt Bird, and it was still a fun game. game 2 and game 5 I played against Pure DE from Utah, my favorite opponent by far because our games turn into narratives practically and we both had fun even if it went bad for one of us a turn. played Tri-tide Tau that I almost pulled a win thanks to Iron Arm on Runepriest with the Relic and came down to rolling a final invuln save at the top of 5 to determine if I would win or not. Played GateGravs w/ Tiggy and Draigo game 4 and played a BT w/ Warhound game 6. Terrain favored my games against Tau and the Warhound, all I could do is roll 2's.

Thanks guys. This is the reason I came to this thread. I would really like to see the final results from both the Invitational and the Open. It was 32 in the Invitational and only 24 in the Open? I am especially interested because of Feast's choice of missions, and army composition rules. I would generally like to know if they altered the outcome in a significant way.

So it's looking like the consensus is its okay to use an illegal army list for whatever reason. Kind of surprising.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's looking like the consensus is its okay to use an illegal army list for whatever reason. Kind of surprising.

not the consensus.
the rules for what is and what isn't legal are in flux. he didn't right down misinformation or try to game the system. it was a mistake. Back in 4th edition i was playing at the uk gt heat 1 and wrote my army list saturday morning. I was 2 points over due to a krak grenade. this was discovered during round two and I received a loss on game one. the list was fixed during game two and was allowed to finish the event.

the player should have been given a loss in each game he played the illegal list and allowed to continue with a corrected list.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's looking like the consensus is its okay to use an illegal army list for whatever reason. Kind of surprising.

No its okay to use an army list where there was obviously intent to use the correct list(as was seen by contact with the TO's among other things) and that accidents happen. We all admit we are in a time of rapid flux, mistakes are going to happen. People are going to make basic mistakes, so are TO's.

It is just part of the growing process considering there is so much variation in army construction across events. TO's are scrambling to try and put on the best events they can in such a short time.

I don't blame the TO's these are people who are putting on all this time and effort because they LOVE this game, they put forward so much more than we do(some even doing things at a personal loss/risk) just so we have plenty of events to go to. If they made a slight mistake in checking everyone's lists I say let it slide. The player who won volunteered to send all the prize support he received to the other person, even though no one asked or demanded that he did.

Everyone who has met Kenny can vouch for his character, he had two dice out of 120, one of which was left behind which was the source that resulting in the error being found. Out of all the dice rolled in a game those two would not make a significant difference in the long term. It effected 1/6 rolls on 1/60 dice that is a .2% increase in his favor, I doubt any of the games were even that close. He didn't resist at all, publicly apologized and willingly withdrew from the tournament.

In my mind I see this as a positive about our community as a whole. People who realize their error not only apologize, but take additional steps to rectify the situation. We have our donkey-caves, but so does every community.

Well, 2 dice out of 120 are important depending on the specific roll they are used for. Not that I'm saying that happened, but something to think about. If I have a die that only rolls 6's and I only use it for one die roll per game, that can be a big deal (first turn/seize).

 pretre wrote:
Well, 2 dice out of 120 are important depending on the specific roll they are used for. Not that I'm saying that happened, but something to think about. If I have a die that only rolls 6's and I only use it for one die roll per game, that can be a big deal (first turn/seize).

That implies knowledge that those specific dice were cheaty dice, considering that one of the two dice was left under the table I highly doubt that is the case.

 Leth wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Well, 2 dice out of 120 are important depending on the specific roll they are used for. Not that I'm saying that happened, but something to think about. If I have a die that only rolls 6's and I only use it for one die roll per game, that can be a big deal (first turn/seize).

That implies knowledge that those specific dice were cheaty dice, considering that one of the two dice was left under the table I highly doubt that is the case.

This.

Leth wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's looking like the consensus is its okay to use an illegal army list for whatever reason. Kind of surprising.

No its okay to use an army list where there was obviously intent to use the correct list(as was seen by contact with the TO's among other things) and that accidents happen. We all admit we are in a time of rapid flux, mistakes are going to happen. People are going to make basic mistakes, so are TO's.

It is just part of the growing process considering there is so much variation in army construction across events. TO's are scrambling to try and put on the best events they can in such a short time.

I don't blame the TO's these are people who are putting on all this time and effort because they LOVE this game, they put forward so much more than we do(some even doing things at a personal loss/risk) just so we have plenty of events to go to. If they made a slight mistake in checking everyone's lists I say let it slide. The player who won volunteered to send all the prize support he received to the other person, even though no one asked or demanded that he did.

Everyone who has met Kenny can vouch for his character, he had two dice out of 120, one of which was left behind which was the source that resulting in the error being found. Out of all the dice rolled in a game those two would not make a significant difference in the long term. It effected 1/6 rolls on 1/60 dice that is a .2% increase in his favor, I doubt any of the games were even that close. He didn't resist at all, publicly apologized and willingly withdrew from the tournament.

In my mind I see this as a positive about our community as a whole. People who realize their error not only apologize, but take additional steps to rectify the situation. We have our donkey-caves, but so does every community.

Thanks for the support man,but it is the literal definition of cheating. That is why i bowed out of both events. I was mortified and embarrassed. I do have the purchase history in my amazon account still and plan on sharing it on FB this week. I don't really think it proves much because anyone can buy dice from different sellers and say what ever they want. I think character generator dice were simply sorted into the dice by the seller randomly.
-Kenny

pretre wrote:Well, 2 dice out of 120 are important depending on the specific roll they are used for. Not that I'm saying that happened, but something to think about. If I have a die that only rolls 6's and I only use it for one die roll per game, that can be a big deal (first turn/seize).

I agree, and that is why i feel like a cheater. Because i cannot say with any certainty that this did not happen. I have a sense of dice superstition. I like rolling medium dice for most thingd, small dice for leadership tests, and big dice for important things like one off things,and all of them for attacks! I can only say i am sorry , it was not intentional and i will help try to create a dice standard.
-Kenny

 Leth wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Well, 2 dice out of 120 are important depending on the specific roll they are used for. Not that I'm saying that happened, but something to think about. If I have a die that only rolls 6's and I only use it for one die roll per game, that can be a big deal (first turn/seize).

That implies knowledge that those specific dice were cheaty dice, considering that one of the two dice was left under the table I highly doubt that is the case.

You've never left your car keys in a chair or at the bar? I don't know this guy from Adam and don't have a stake in it, but saying that only .2% of his performance was increased is voodoo statistics and not representative of what 2 loaded dice in a pile of dice means. If you're going to cheat smart (and deniably), you don't make your whole pile roll better than average. You use a couple chosen dice and only use them when they will give you the most benefit.

In other words, if someone has a pile of 10,000 dice and one loaded one, that gives him a substantive advantage because they know that they can influence any roll they want by using that one die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Next Level wrote:
I agree, and that is why i feel like a cheater. Because i cannot say with any certainty that this did not happen. I have a sense of dice superstition. I like rolling medium dice for most thingd, small dice for leadership tests, and big dice for important things like one off things,and all of them for attacks! I can only say i am sorry , it was not intentional and i will help try to create a dice standard.

See and this is why I have a tendency to believe him now. So far Kenny has owned up to it and been an adult about it. So either it was really an accident or he's really convincing.

Moral of this whole story: Don't buy second-hand dice.

Next Level wrote:
Thanks for the support man,but it is the literal definition of cheating.

That it was cheating was never in doubt, the only thing that was in doubt(for some people) was intent. Intent should matter more in this situation than the actual action. People were foaming at the mouth and getting their pitchforks out. Acting like they have never made a mistake before. Talks of banning or massive overhauls that need to be made to tournaments(At the TO's expense I might add, never something they need to be responsible for).

See and this is why I have a tendency to believe him now. So far Kenny has owned up to it and been an adult about it. So either it was really an accident or he's really convincing.

Honestly what he is feeling right now is a punishment far and above the actual offense.

If kenny wanted to cheat he would just come around the table and CHOKE YOU OUT. When you woke up he would tell you how they game went and give a very convincing explination why you dont have any pants on.


just saying...........

 Leth wrote:
Honestly what he is feeling right now is a punishment far and above the actual offense.

Not seeing it.

Just don't allow mixed dice. I don't think you have to provide dice, just limit each player to one set/cube. Doesn't prevent people tampering with dice but makes it a lot harder for cheaters to pick the modified dice out of a bunch of identical dice. Fast rolling isn't as much of a thing now that you parse out rolls based on weapon so it's not like having different colors/sizes saves that much time.

 Leth wrote:

Honestly what he is feeling right now is a punishment far and above the actual offense.

Woah.

Did you just really say that if you bring altered dice that are made to cheat opponents to a tournament, and you feel bad about it, it is a punishment worse than you deserve?
Really?

No, i think he is quite aware of the appearance of this issue, and is taking it exactly as he needs to.
I don't think him quitting the tournament, forfeiting all prizes, and leaving is what bothers him. It would not me. It is the proper thing to do.
If the exact thing happened to me, What would REALLY bother me is the perception that I tried to cheat when i had no intention to. that would stick in my craw something fierce! From now on, every time I made an amazing roll, my opponent might, just for a tenth of a second, glance at the dice again and wonder...

Do i think it was intentional? No, no I do not. Do I think he is being overpunished? No, no i do not.
But I do feel sorry for the guy.

IMO I really think you are truly responsable for what you do. With the issue of buying used dice and them being drilled out to remove the 2 clearly is an advantage for a MoT demons player. If thats what he was playing it would be hard for me to believe that it was an accident or honest mistake. If you incorrectly write your list, again that was your fault regardless of it being an honest mistake. Removing the model(s) that are in violation and recieving a loss for every match which the illegal list was used should be how it is handled.

I think the best course of action is DQ or games up yo that point all count as a loss. Letting people slide sets a bad precedent. It doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not.

Josh and Kenny were in the wrong... very clearly in the wrong. Both situations are understandable, but they both made decisions that broke the social contract and the rules of the Tournament.
Kenny has stood up, admitted his fault and has done what he can to fix the issue.
Josh has also stood up, worked with Tournament officials to fix the situation... and then has decided that the choice of the Tournament officials didn't go far enough to fix the situation and is reaching out to someone who was wronged.
The Tournament officials did the best that they could at the time... many of us disagree with the decision that they came to (ultimately Josh did as well), but it is a tough decision to make in the 5 minutes between rounds of a huge, multi-day tourney. Like refs in any sporting event, you need to take their judgment at face-value, and know that they made their decision with the best of intentions.

Those involved have all acted in the best way imaginable after-the-fact... and for that, I commend them all.

The beauty about loaded dices is that they dont have to be any different than your other dices

5 dices will roll normal while 2 others will roll 6 all the time ... your opponent will never notice unless he takes the dices in his hands.
There are also tricks that can be mastered to make the dices roll better. Like holding them a certain way between your fingers and throwing them horizontally will give a certain result more often.

Casino experts can be very good with this technique.

I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to use the event dice (if there are any) in preference to any I bring unless I happen to need different colors or something for say plasma & bolter shots at the same time. I know not all events sell them, but Feast has and except for one year where they sold the last set to the guy ahead of me in line -d'oh!- I have purchased sets at every FoB tourney. If nothing else it supports the event and I get to add more dice to the thousands I already own

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the best course of action is DQ or games up yo that point all count as a loss. Letting people slide sets a bad precedent. It doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not.

I find it ironic that the same guy who refused to "out" a dice cheater caught red handed at his very own Tournament (Beaky 2) now wants to "tar and feather" these 2 guys. Joshes explination actually sounds plausible.. did the TOs ok the list ? seems this is the case. Kenny unfortunatly has a harder road to over come.. but i respect him coming here and being open about it.


you guys however did everything you could to keep "your" cheater from getting known....... hipocricy much ?

Here is an article I wrote on my blog about the loaded dice at BeakyCon2 (written days after the event):

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2012/10/discussion-on-topic-of-loaded-dice-at.html

As someone who has dealt with the negative backlash on the Internet due to intentional cheating at one of my events my advice is check lists in advance (I've written an article with detailed guidelines based upon my experience), have a plan in place in case something should happen and let everyone know in advance. Not checking army lists is the same as not providing dice. It's a major pain. Everyone in the community basically wants the same thing - the ultimate authority should be the TOs. Anyways mistakes will happen from time to time and we can all learn from each other. I am a huge advocate of Torrent of Fire - it's an awesome tool for even small events. The more tools we have the better we can prepare. Not trying to rock the boat - just trying to share from my experience. If we let things slide unfortunately it will only end up potentially encouraging a certain element and not that anyone here falls into that particular domain.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Here is an article I wrote on my blog about the loaded dice at BeakyCon2 (written days after the event):

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2012/10/discussion-on-topic-of-loaded-dice-at.html

As someone who has dealt with the negative backlash on the Internet due to intentional cheating at one of my events my advice is check lists in advance (I've written an article with detailed guidelines based upon my experience), have a plan in place in case something should happen and let everyone know in advance. Not checking army lists is the same as not providing dice. It's a major pain. Everyone in the community basically wants the same thing - the ultimate authority should be the TOs. Anyways mistakes will happen from time to time and we can all learn from each other. I am a huge advocate of Torrent of Fire - it's an awesome tool for even small events. The more tools we have the better we can prepare. Not trying to rock the boat - just trying to share from my experience. If we let things slide unfortunately it will only end up potentially encouraging a certain element and not that anyone here falls into that particular domain.

I have never understood why in the US it has not been a requirement to turn in lists in advance. When I lived in Switzerland and played in France and Germany most tournaments were tracked on this site http://www.tabletoptournaments.net/index.php where you had to submit your list at least a month in advance. Amazing that a bunch of different countries/ languages/ cultures can figure it out and in the US we cannot....

Ok, the horse is officially dead! You don't have to beat it anymore.

stormboy97 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Yep, found the thread. It was BeakyCon 2012 with supposedly member of the Wrecking Crew using a weighted dice for his go first or seize rolls.

As for the event I'm also interested in the results and what people thought about the format.

It was not a member of the WRECKING CREW, it was a guy from south florida, there were several WRECKING CREW members there. I actually played and beat the guy with the dice, never noticed that it was being used. The dice in question was inspected later that night in the hotel and we all determined with a very scientific method( roll it a bunch of times while drinking) that it was wieghted. The guy using it was not in contention to win anything but the middle of the pack award. Had tons of random dice, he was DQed and hasnt been seen playing 40k since.

So no these two incidents are not related and no Kenny was not at Beaky Con.

Just putting a little truth to the statement.

Everything you said is true . Tasty taste from BoK was the player that saw him using the die in his game , the TO examined die and player forfeited their game and was generally DQ'ed from tourney( he payed only one more game the next day after his opponent had no one to play and said it was fine to get the game in ) , tasty couldn't stop crying, bitching and moaning about it for days on end , shaming the player into never playing again and ( in my opinion ) intentionally trying to hurt the reputation of beaky con even though they handled it in a100% professional manner .

zedsdead wrote:


I find it ironic that the same guy who refused to "out" a dice cheater caught red handed at his very own Tournament (Beaky 2) now wants to "tar and feather" these 2 guys. Joshes explination actually sounds plausible.. did the TOs ok the list ? seems this is the case. Kenny unfortunatly has a harder road to over come.. but i respect him coming here and being open about it.


you guys however did everything you could to keep "your" cheater from getting known....... hipocricy much ?

What are you talking about ? Beaky immediately owned up to it .

Beaky was raked over the coals for no reason other than tasty needed the clicks at BoK
And the player , a player who loved the game and had played forever , never played again

.

so, what about some actual army lists..... ?

Definitely interested in the lists.

I agree, the horse is long dead

Lists would be interesting; we had a lot of negative feedback ourselves about things like the Transcendent C'tan in the Narrative and Trios, though it did not win said events.

I think it's always a bit of a frustration that the forums and blogs consider themselves crusaders trying to make sure fellow hobbyists are punished properly for hiccups or mistakes in toy soldier games. It's really Feast's responsibility, and we should give a little trust and compassion to a bunch of people who put long hours and hard work into running their event as best they can. Hundreds of people showed up, and instead of being celebrated, there's flames goin' on over a 32-person event and some fairly believable honest mistakes.

+1 to "what went great?" and "what lists" and "dead horse."

+1 to all the amazing spinning going on .

MVBrandt wrote:
Lists would be interesting; we had a lot of negative feedback ourselves about things like the Transcendent C'tan in the Narrative and Trios, though it did not win said events.

Not understanding this statement? Adepticon isn't allowing the C'tan because it's unbeatable. How was it beaten?

 mk2 wrote:

stormboy97 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Yep, found the thread. It was BeakyCon 2012 with supposedly member of the Wrecking Crew using a weighted dice for his go first or seize rolls.

As for the event I'm also interested in the results and what people thought about the format.

It was not a member of the WRECKING CREW, it was a guy from south florida, there were several WRECKING CREW members there. I actually played and beat the guy with the dice, never noticed that it was being used. The dice in question was inspected later that night in the hotel and we all determined with a very scientific method( roll it a bunch of times while drinking) that it was wieghted. The guy using it was not in contention to win anything but the middle of the pack award. Had tons of random dice, he was DQed and hasnt been seen playing 40k since.

So no these two incidents are not related and no Kenny was not at Beaky Con.

Just putting a little truth to the statement.

Everything you said is true . Tasty taste from BoK was the player that saw him using the die in his game , the TO examined die and player forfeited their game and was generally DQ'ed from tourney( he payed only one more game the next day after his opponent had no one to play and said it was fine to get the game in ) , tasty couldn't stop crying, bitching and moaning about it for days on end , shaming the player into never playing again and ( in my opinion ) intentionally trying to hurt the reputation of beaky con even though they handled it in a100% professional manner .

zedsdead wrote:


I find it ironic that the same guy who refused to "out" a dice cheater caught red handed at his very own Tournament (Beaky 2) now wants to "tar and feather" these 2 guys. Joshes explination actually sounds plausible.. did the TOs ok the list ? seems this is the case. Kenny unfortunatly has a harder road to over come.. but i respect him coming here and being open about it.


you guys however did everything you could to keep "your" cheater from getting known....... hipocricy much ?

What are you talking about ? Beaky immediately owned up to it .

Beaky was raked over the coals for no reason other than tasty needed the clicks at BoK
And the player , a player who loved the game and had played forever , never played again

.

Actually no... he was raked over the coals for not being transparent and letting the community know who the guy was because he was a friend and from his local gaming community.

Nevermind.

I was the Tyranid player at the invitational. The only tyranid player, I was running a single CAD with:
2 Flyrants + Devourers + ES Grubs (Duh)
Malanthrope
Tervigon
30 Gaunts
20 Gargoyles
Dimachaeron
2 Carnifexes + Devourers

Over all I went 6-1. I lost my very first game on Friday. And I blame that on having a very good opponent with 6 vendetta valkerye elysian drop troops that I was in no way prepared for, and the fact that I looked at the mission packet wrong. I didn't realize the Objectives were cumulative until turn 5. I argued with my opponent over the end game score but in the end decided it was my own fault for not reading the mission properly and gave him the win. My next games involved facing White Scar Grav Bikers with khan, Ork nob bikers supported by lots of artillery, DE, Triptide tau with farsight and a knight, A knight Castigator with imp guard and pask including 2 wyverns and a hydra on a skyshield. Then finally for the top of bracket 2 I ended up facing my original opponent again. 6 Valkyrie vendetta elysian troops all with melta bombs. This time around I was very careful with the mission and knew to give him first turn since he started entirely in reserve. I came away with the win and took the top of bracket 2.

Shame on you Zed,

Public shame for a mistake. Why didn't Tasty post his name then? Beaky took the hit for no reason other than a personal vendetta. The player was dealt with and Dq'ed. The circumstances here were very different. Beaky was at a mid level table, FoB was at the top table. There was no anonymity possible at FoB. I hope other TOs do not take your pious stance and avoid public shaming.

Everyone deserves a second chance.

zedsdead wrote:

 mk2 wrote:

stormboy97 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Yep, found the thread. It was BeakyCon 2012 with supposedly member of the Wrecking Crew using a weighted dice for his go first or seize rolls.

As for the event I'm also interested in the results and what people thought about the format.

It was not a member of the WRECKING CREW, it was a guy from south florida, there were several WRECKING CREW members there. I actually played and beat the guy with the dice, never noticed that it was being used. The dice in question was inspected later that night in the hotel and we all determined with a very scientific method( roll it a bunch of times while drinking) that it was wieghted. The guy using it was not in contention to win anything but the middle of the pack award. Had tons of random dice, he was DQed and hasnt been seen playing 40k since.

So no these two incidents are not related and no Kenny was not at Beaky Con.

Just putting a little truth to the statement.

Everything you said is true . Tasty taste from BoK was the player that saw him using the die in his game , the TO examined die and player forfeited their game and was generally DQ'ed from tourney( he payed only one more game the next day after his opponent had no one to play and said it was fine to get the game in ) , tasty couldn't stop crying, bitching and moaning about it for days on end , shaming the player into never playing again and ( in my opinion ) intentionally trying to hurt the reputation of beaky con even though they handled it in a100% professional manner .

zedsdead wrote:


I find it ironic that the same guy who refused to "out" a dice cheater caught red handed at his very own Tournament (Beaky 2) now wants to "tar and feather" these 2 guys. Joshes explination actually sounds plausible.. did the TOs ok the list ? seems this is the case. Kenny unfortunatly has a harder road to over come.. but i respect him coming here and being open about it.


you guys however did everything you could to keep "your" cheater from getting known....... hipocricy much ?

What are you talking about ? Beaky immediately owned up to it .

Beaky was raked over the coals for no reason other than tasty needed the clicks at BoK
And the player , a player who loved the game and had played forever , never played again

.

Actually no... he was raked over the coals for not being transparent and letting the community know who the guy was because he was a friend and from his local gaming community.

 Anglacon wrote:

 mk2 wrote:
Tasty taste from BoK was the player that saw him using the die in his game , the TO examined die and player forfeited their game and was generally DQ'ed from tourney( he payed only one more game the next day after his opponent had no one to play and said it was fine to get the game in ) , tasty couldn't stop crying, bitching and moaning about it for days on end , shaming the player into never playing again and ( in my opinion ) intentionally trying to hurt the reputation of beaky con



Beaky was raked over the coals for no reason other than tasty needed the clicks at BoK
And the player , a player who loved the game and had played forever , never played again

.

I don't know where in the world you get your information, but you might want to make sure the stuff you are saying is true..... I don't think Tasty was even AT the tournament, much less being the one who caught the guy.

And I won't stir up trouble here, but the rest of the stuff you said was all wrong as well.
the only thing partially true is that Beaky did own up to it, but never released his name/info.

You are correct sir! Never at the event I have no idea who and what this guy is talking about. This was my original post about the matter.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/10/15/tits-for-tournaments-beakycon-results-cheating-and-public-service-announcement/

I was the one who played the GreenTide. List was

GreenTide all powerclaws 90 boyz 10 Nobz 1 warboss
Weird Boy level 2
Mad Doc
3 MSU Grot squads
Bastion with Quad Gun

Here is my report from Feast.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/10/15/tits-tournaments-feast-cheating/

 thejughead wrote:
Shame on you Zed,

Public shame for a mistake. Why didn't Tasty post his name then? Beaky took the hit for no reason other than a personal vendetta. The player was dealt with and Dq'ed. The circumstances here were very different. Beaky was at a mid level table, FoB was at the top table. There was no anonymity possible at FoB. I hope other TOs do not take your pious stance and avoid public shaming.

Everyone deserves a second chance.

Oh please stop.... the only reason why anonymity was possible is because that's the way they wanted it. It was one of there guys.. and they didn't want him outed.. yea Beaky finally admitted the guy was cheating.. but it took some time and further players coming forward for the guy to do it. That's a far cry from his "illegal lists are illegal" black and white comment he made here.

Whats hypocritical is Beaky taking a pious stance on this issue.

And as I pointed out as well as others.. you guys seem to want to change history. Its clear thats what mk2 wants to do and has been clearly refuted. Pretty much just a continuation of the same ole same ole guys protecting one another.

Reply by: Darkness - click to view full reply 

1985

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 19:46:28

Post by: Darkness

I was the one who played the GreenTide. List was

GreenTide all powerclaws 90 boyz 10 Nobz 1 warboss
Weird Boy level 2
Mad Doc
3 MSU Grot squads
Bastion with Quad Gun

Here is my report from Feast.

Tasty! What could beat this army at 1500?

Reply by: mk2 - click to view full reply 

41894

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 20:09:24

Post by: mk2

zedsdead wrote:

 mk2 wrote:

stormboy97 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Yep, found the thread. It was BeakyCon 2012 with supposedly member of the Wrecking Crew using a weighted dice for his go first or seize rolls.

As for the event I'm also interested in the results and what people thought about the format.

It was not a member of the WRECKING CREW, it was a guy from south florida, there were several WRECKING CREW members there. I actually played and beat the guy with the dice, never noticed that it was being used. The dice in question was inspected later that night in the hotel and we all determined with a very scientific method( roll it a bunch of times while drinking) that it was wieghted. The guy using it was not in contention to win anything but the middle of the pack award. Had tons of random dice, he was DQed and hasnt been seen playing 40k since.

So no these two incidents are not related and no Kenny was not at Beaky Con.

Just putting a little truth to the statement.

Everything you said is true . Tasty taste from BoK was the player that saw him using the die in his game , the TO examined die and player forfeited their game and was generally DQ'ed from tourney( he payed only one more game the next day after his opponent had no one to play and said it was fine to get the game in ) , tasty couldn't stop crying, bitching and moaning about it for days on end , shaming the player into never playing again and ( in my opinion ) intentionally trying to hurt the reputation of beaky con even though they handled it in a100% professional manner .

zedsdead wrote:


I find it ironic that the same guy who refused to "out" a dice cheater caught red handed at his very own Tournament (Beaky 2) now wants to "tar and feather" these 2 guys. Joshes explination actually sounds plausible.. did the TOs ok the list ? seems this is the case. Kenny unfortunatly has a harder road to over come.. but i respect him coming here and being open about it.


you guys however did everything you could to keep "your" cheater from getting known....... hipocricy much ?

What are you talking about ? Beaky immediately owned up to it .

Beaky was raked over the coals for no reason other than tasty needed the clicks at BoK
And the player , a player who loved the game and had played forever , never played again

.

Actually no... he was raked over the coals for not being transparent and letting the community know who the guy was because he was a friend and from his local gaming community.

Actually NO...he was not a friend at all, in fact the guys at beaky banned him for life and barely knew him. Awesome how you make facts up though. That is part of the problem with the internet lynch mob tough guys...all talk no substance or facts.

Reply by: thejughead - click to view full reply 

61519

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 20:12:28

Post by: thejughead

You seem more dedicated to seeking out internet justice for your own satisfaction.

Shaming someone does nothing for the hobby. Repeat offenders should be banned. Seems you forgot all about forgiveness. Its man-dolls.

zedsdead wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
Shame on you Zed,

Public shame for a mistake. Why didn't Tasty post his name then? Beaky took the hit for no reason other than a personal vendetta. The player was dealt with and Dq'ed. The circumstances here were very different. Beaky was at a mid level table, FoB was at the top table. There was no anonymity possible at FoB. I hope other TOs do not take your pious stance and avoid public shaming.

Everyone deserves a second chance.

Oh please stop.... the only reason why anonymity was possible is because that's the way they wanted it. It was one of there guys.. and they didn't want him outed.. yea Beaky finally admitted the guy was cheating.. but it took some time and further players coming forward for the guy to do it. That's a far cry from his "illegal lists are illegal" black and white comment he made here.

Whats hypocritical is Beaky taking a pious stance on this issue.

And as I pointed out as well as others.. you guys seem to want to change history. Its clear thats what mk2 wants to do and has been clearly refuted. Pretty much just a continuation of the same ole same ole guys protecting one another.

Reply by: mk2 - click to view full reply 

41894

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 20:41:57

Post by: mk2

 tastytaste wrote:

 Anglacon wrote:

 mk2 wrote:
Tasty taste from BoK was the player that saw him using the die in his game , the TO examined die and player forfeited their game and was generally DQ'ed from tourney( he payed only one more game the next day after his opponent had no one to play and said it was fine to get the game in ) , tasty couldn't stop crying, bitching and moaning about it for days on end , shaming the player into never playing again and ( in my opinion ) intentionally trying to hurt the reputation of beaky con



Beaky was raked over the coals for no reason other than tasty needed the clicks at BoK
And the player , a player who loved the game and had played forever , never played again

.

I don't know where in the world you get your information, but you might want to make sure the stuff you are saying is true..... I don't think Tasty was even AT the tournament, much less being the one who caught the guy.

And I won't stir up trouble here, but the rest of the stuff you said was all wrong as well.
the only thing partially true is that Beaky did own up to it, but never released his name/info.

You are correct sir! Never at the event I have no idea who and what this guy is talking about. This was my original post about the matter.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/10/15/tits-for-tournaments-beakycon-results-cheating-and-public-service-announcement/

I was the one who played the GreenTide. List was

GreenTide all powerclaws 90 boyz 10 Nobz 1 warboss
Weird Boy level 2
Mad Doc
3 MSU Grot squads
Bastion with Quad Gun

Here is my report from Feast.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/10/15/tits-tournaments-feast-cheating/

Hey bud I was at the table behind you when it happened . The following are facts that are not in dispute and if you don't agree I can drag up every witness there and see where we stand .

1. He had a die that was loaded to roll 6 (not all the time but most of the time, the first few rolls from Matt had a 2 come up as I recall ) , you yourself said you recognized it from a convention you went to. it was black with silver pips.
2. He said he did not realize that die was loaded. he actually used casino die that were even bigger so this die did not stand out (to him).
3. You went to the TO and told them what was going on.
4. The TO RULED IN YOUR FAVOR and disqualified him from the game and gave you the win. (beaky always did the right thing and they were harmed by the internet lynch mob that you yourself started but we can leave that for another post )
5. The player was mortified, literally in tears. He apologized to you on the spot (you can not deny this I was there!) explained that he and gone to our local store and grabbed the die because it looked cool from a grab box along with other ones , he did not realize it was loaded.
6. You refused to listen to him
7. he said if you could just get the game in, that he would show you this is not what he was about and you had the automatic win that he just wanted to play it out .
8. you shook your head upset and said I am not going to play you now or ever.
9. He played the next day against the last placed opponent who had a bye, after he asked permission from the TO and Opponent no less!
10, you came home and blew it up , you never stopped complaining about it there also , all you did was talk, talk , talk about it with your buddies loud enough for everyone to hear. You were the exact opposite of a gentleman in that circumstance.
11. The internet detonated. they wanted blood they wanted a name, they wanted to destroy this individual.
12. i found it curious the beaky guys did not give up his name(maybe they did eventually) , that shows a tremendous amount of integrity from Steve and Matt as they really barely new this guy.
13. the internet furor was so over the top, so insane...the player never played 40K again (even without his name being revealed ). A dedicated player with a fully painted army that he loved who had played for years and was a respected member of the community .

Now here is the part I will reveal for the first time, not even the beaky guys know this.

It did not sit well with me because this was someone I had played against and wanted the truth(at this point I did not really know) . I listened to his story, wrote everything down and VERIFIED IT without him knowing (at first). I went to the store in question, asked if he had been in and purchased dice recently , asked if he had purchased dice form the bin, took pictures of the bin. At this point I asked the store owner (with impeccable credentials, he has been in business for 39 years at the same store !) if he would sign a document stating what he just told me (he was like what???? then I explained) .

I talked to the store owner today, he will step forward. and just tell the truth that he knows .

The player (who has quit the game right after so who cares what his name is) , was then contacted by me, i told him we can make this public it could exonerate him ...he told me and I paraphrase " I don't care anymore, this is so bad, they will just say i found it there and knew about it and used it" the crazy thing is I have purchased dice from that bin FOR YEARS since i have been visiting the store since 1985.
This die was not drilled on one side, in fact you had to roll it a bunch of times to even know it could be loaded

Nick , you might not agree with me and i know you are a huge fan of the hobby but buddy you might have gotten this one wrong. Trust me you started the dominoes that destroyed this individual. Post script is he got into something else and is thriving in that community but we lost a dedicated tournament player.

Reply by: tastytaste - click to view full reply 

13300

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 20:51:56

Post by: tastytaste

 Darkness wrote:

I was the one who played the GreenTide. List was

GreenTide all powerclaws 90 boyz 10 Nobz 1 warboss
Weird Boy level 2
Mad Doc
3 MSU Grot squads
Bastion with Quad Gun

Here is my report from Feast.

Tasty! What could beat this army at 1500?

I had to play the same guy I lost to twice. I think I lost the first game by two points the second one by one point. I lost because A. my opponent was a good Tau player and B. I didn't read the missions beforehand caused me to lose the second game when I should have done some other things because I was unaware of one the victory conditions. If they were not really funky missions I would have beaten him both times, but he was a really good player and I should actually play to the mission hehe.

Reply by: tastytaste - click to view full reply 

13300

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 21:01:58

Post by: tastytaste

 mk2 wrote:

 tastytaste wrote:

 Anglacon wrote:

 mk2 wrote:
Tasty taste from BoK was the player that saw him using the die in his game , the TO examined die and player forfeited their game and was generally DQ'ed from tourney( he payed only one more game the next day after his opponent had no one to play and said it was fine to get the game in ) , tasty couldn't stop crying, bitching and moaning about it for days on end , shaming the player into never playing again and ( in my opinion ) intentionally trying to hurt the reputation of beaky con



Beaky was raked over the coals for no reason other than tasty needed the clicks at BoK
And the player , a player who loved the game and had played forever , never played again

.

I don't know where in the world you get your information, but you might want to make sure the stuff you are saying is true..... I don't think Tasty was even AT the tournament, much less being the one who caught the guy.

And I won't stir up trouble here, but the rest of the stuff you said was all wrong as well.
the only thing partially true is that Beaky did own up to it, but never released his name/info.

You are correct sir! Never at the event I have no idea who and what this guy is talking about. This was my original post about the matter.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/10/15/tits-for-tournaments-beakycon-results-cheating-and-public-service-announcement/

I was the one who played the GreenTide. List was

GreenTide all powerclaws 90 boyz 10 Nobz 1 warboss
Weird Boy level 2
Mad Doc
3 MSU Grot squads
Bastion with Quad Gun

Here is my report from Feast.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/10/15/tits-tournaments-feast-cheating/

Hey bud I was at the table behind you when it happened . The following are facts that are not in dispute and if you don't agree I can drag up every witness there and see where we stand .

1. He had a die that was loaded to roll 6 (not all the time but most of the time, the first few rolls from Matt had a 2 come up as I recall ) , you yourself said you recognized it from a convention you went to. it was black with silver pips.
2. He said he did not realize that die was loaded. he actually used casino die that were even bigger so this die did not stand out (to him).
3. You went to the TO and told them what was going on.
4. The TO RULED IN YOUR FAVOR and disqualified him from the game and gave you the win. (beaky always did the right thing and they were harmed by the internet lynch mob that you yourself started but we can leave that for another post )
5. The player was mortified, literally in tears. He apologized to you on the spot (you can not deny this I was there!) explained that he and gone to our local store and grabbed the die because it looked cool from a grab box along with other ones , he did not realize it was loaded.
6. You refused to listen to him
7. he said if you could just get the game in, that he would show you this is not what he was about and you had the automatic win that he just wanted to play it out .
8. you shook your head upset and said I am not going to play you now or ever.
9. He played the next day against the last placed opponent who had a bye, after he asked permission from the TO and Opponent no less!
10, you came home and blew it up , you never stopped complaining about it there also , all you did was talk, talk , talk about it with your buddies loud enough for everyone to hear. You were the exact opposite of a gentleman in that circumstance.
11. The internet detonated. they wanted blood they wanted a name, they wanted to destroy this individual.
12. i found it curious the beaky guys did not give up his name(maybe they did eventually) , that shows a tremendous amount of integrity from Steve and Matt as they really barely new this guy.
13. the internet furor was so over the top, so insane...the player never played 40K again (even without his name being revealed ). A dedicated player with a fully painted army that he loved who had played for years and was a respected member of the community .

Now here is the part I will reveal for the first time, not even the beaky guys know this.

It did not sit well with me because this was someone I had played against and wanted the truth(at this point I did not really know) . I listened to his story, wrote everything down and VERIFIED IT without him knowing (at first). I went to the store in question, asked if he had been in and purchased dice recently , asked if he had purchased dice form the bin, took pictures of the bin. At this point I asked the store owner (with impeccable credentials, he has been in business for 39 years at the same store !) if he would sign a document stating what he just told me (he was like what???? then I explained) .

I talked to the store owner today, he will step forward. and just tell the truth that he knows .

The player (who has quit the game right after so who cares what his name is) , was then contacted by me, i told him we can make this public it could exonerate him ...he told me and I paraphrase " I don't care anymore, this is so bad, they will just say i found it there and knew about it and used it" the crazy thing is I have purchased dice from that bin FOR YEARS since i have been visiting the store since 1985.
This die was not drilled on one side, in fact you had to roll it a bunch of times to even know it could be loaded

Nick , you might not agree with me and i know you are a huge fan of the hobby but buddy you might have gotten this one wrong. Trust me you started the dominoes that destroyed this individual. Post script is he got into something else and is thriving in that community but we lost a dedicated tournament player.

I WAS NOT AT THIS EVENT! Never been to Florida in my entire life. Unless you are talking about another Nick or referring to someone else in this off track thread.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 21:09:53

Post by: pretre

To be fair to Tasty, his article says it was from Altmann.

Reply by: mk2 - click to view full reply 

41894

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 21:10:23

Post by: mk2

 tastytaste wrote:

 mk2 wrote:

 tastytaste wrote:

 Anglacon wrote:

 mk2 wrote:
Tasty taste from BoK was the player that saw him using the die in his game , the TO examined die and player forfeited their game and was generally DQ'ed from tourney( he payed only one more game the next day after his opponent had no one to play and said it was fine to get the game in ) , tasty couldn't stop crying, bitching and moaning about it for days on end , shaming the player into never playing again and ( in my opinion ) intentionally trying to hurt the reputation of beaky con



Beaky was raked over the coals for no reason other than tasty needed the clicks at BoK
And the player , a player who loved the game and had played forever , never played again

.

I don't know where in the world you get your information, but you might want to make sure the stuff you are saying is true..... I don't think Tasty was even AT the tournament, much less being the one who caught the guy.

And I won't stir up trouble here, but the rest of the stuff you said was all wrong as well.
the only thing partially true is that Beaky did own up to it, but never released his name/info.

You are correct sir! Never at the event I have no idea who and what this guy is talking about. This was my original post about the matter.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/10/15/tits-for-tournaments-beakycon-results-cheating-and-public-service-announcement/

I was the one who played the GreenTide. List was

GreenTide all powerclaws 90 boyz 10 Nobz 1 warboss
Weird Boy level 2
Mad Doc
3 MSU Grot squads
Bastion with Quad Gun

Here is my report from Feast.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/10/15/tits-tournaments-feast-cheating/

Hey bud I was at the table behind you when it happened . The following are facts that are not in dispute and if you don't agree I can drag up every witness there and see where we stand .

1. He had a die that was loaded to roll 6 (not all the time but most of the time, the first few rolls from Matt had a 2 come up as I recall ) , you yourself said you recognized it from a convention you went to. it was black with silver pips.
2. He said he did not realize that die was loaded. he actually used casino die that were even bigger so this die did not stand out (to him).
3. You went to the TO and told them what was going on.
4. The TO RULED IN YOUR FAVOR and disqualified him from the game and gave you the win. (beaky always did the right thing and they were harmed by the internet lynch mob that you yourself started but we can leave that for another post )
5. The player was mortified, literally in tears. He apologized to you on the spot (you can not deny this I was there!) explained that he and gone to our local store and grabbed the die because it looked cool from a grab box along with other ones , he did not realize it was loaded.
6. You refused to listen to him
7. he said if you could just get the game in, that he would show you this is not what he was about and you had the automatic win that he just wanted to play it out .
8. you shook your head upset and said I am not going to play you now or ever.
9. He played the next day against the last placed opponent who had a bye, after he asked permission from the TO and Opponent no less!
10, you came home and blew it up , you never stopped complaining about it there also , all you did was talk, talk , talk about it with your buddies loud enough for everyone to hear. You were the exact opposite of a gentleman in that circumstance.
11. The internet detonated. they wanted blood they wanted a name, they wanted to destroy this individual.
12. i found it curious the beaky guys did not give up his name(maybe they did eventually) , that shows a tremendous amount of integrity from Steve and Matt as they really barely new this guy.
13. the internet furor was so over the top, so insane...the player never played 40K again (even without his name being revealed ). A dedicated player with a fully painted army that he loved who had played for years and was a respected member of the community .

Now here is the part I will reveal for the first time, not even the beaky guys know this.

It did not sit well with me because this was someone I had played against and wanted the truth(at this point I did not really know) . I listened to his story, wrote everything down and VERIFIED IT without him knowing (at first). I went to the store in question, asked if he had been in and purchased dice recently , asked if he had purchased dice form the bin, took pictures of the bin. At this point I asked the store owner (with impeccable credentials, he has been in business for 39 years at the same store !) if he would sign a document stating what he just told me (he was like what???? then I explained) .

I talked to the store owner today, he will step forward. and just tell the truth that he knows .

The player (who has quit the game right after so who cares what his name is) , was then contacted by me, i told him we can make this public it could exonerate him ...he told me and I paraphrase " I don't care anymore, this is so bad, they will just say i found it there and knew about it and used it" the crazy thing is I have purchased dice from that bin FOR YEARS since i have been visiting the store since 1985.
This die was not drilled on one side, in fact you had to roll it a bunch of times to even know it could be loaded

Nick , you might not agree with me and i know you are a huge fan of the hobby but buddy you might have gotten this one wrong. Trust me you started the dominoes that destroyed this individual. Post script is he got into something else and is thriving in that community but we lost a dedicated tournament player.

I WAS NOT AT THIS EVENT! Never been to Florida in my entire life. Unless you are talking about another Nick or referring to someone else in this off track thread.

If it was not you then destruction was done by proxy as you posted only one side of the story , my story is still how it went down. Regardless of who I addressed my last post to.

Reply by: Anglacon - click to view full reply 

2382

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 21:12:46

Post by: Anglacon

 mk2 wrote:




Hey bud I was at the table behind you when it happened . The following are facts that are not in dispute and if you don't agree I can drag up every witness there and see where we stand .

1. He had a die that was loaded to roll 6 (not all the time but most of the time, the first few rolls from Matt had a 2 come up as I recall ) , you yourself said you recognized it from a convention you went to. it was black with silver pips.
2. He said he did not realize that die was loaded. he actually used casino die that were even bigger so this die did not stand out (to him).
3. You went to the TO and told them what was going on.
4. The TO RULED IN YOUR FAVOR and disqualified him from the game and gave you the win. (beaky always did the right thing and they were harmed by the internet lynch mob that you yourself started but we can leave that for another post )
5. The player was mortified, literally in tears. He apologized to you on the spot (you can not deny this I was there!) explained that he and gone to our local store and grabbed the die because it looked cool from a grab box along with other ones , he did not realize it was loaded.
6. You refused to listen to him
7. he said if you could just get the game in, that he would show you this is not what he was about and you had the automatic win that he just wanted to play it out .
8. you shook your head upset and said I am not going to play you now or ever.
9. He played the next day against the last placed opponent who had a bye, after he asked permission from the TO and Opponent no less!
10, you came home and blew it up , you never stopped complaining about it there also , all you did was talk, talk , talk about it with your buddies loud enough for everyone to hear. You were the exact opposite of a gentleman in that circumstance.
11. The internet detonated. they wanted blood they wanted a name, they wanted to destroy this individual.
12. i found it curious the beaky guys did not give up his name(maybe they did eventually) , that shows a tremendous amount of integrity from Steve and Matt as they really barely new this guy.
13. the internet furor was so over the top, so insane...the player never played 40K again (even without his name being revealed ). A dedicated player with a fully painted army that he loved who had played for years and was a respected member of the community .

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Out of the above, you are wrong on:
1,3,4,6,8,10, And possibly 12 and 13.

Reply by: mk2 - click to view full reply 

41894

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 21:14:41

Post by: mk2

 Anglacon wrote:

 mk2 wrote:




Hey bud I was at the table behind you when it happened . The following are facts that are not in dispute and if you don't agree I can drag up every witness there and see where we stand .

1. He had a die that was loaded to roll 6 (not all the time but most of the time, the first few rolls from Matt had a 2 come up as I recall ) , you yourself said you recognized it from a convention you went to. it was black with silver pips.
2. He said he did not realize that die was loaded. he actually used casino die that were even bigger so this die did not stand out (to him).
3. You went to the TO and told them what was going on.
4. The TO RULED IN YOUR FAVOR and disqualified him from the game and gave you the win. (beaky always did the right thing and they were harmed by the internet lynch mob that you yourself started but we can leave that for another post )
5. The player was mortified, literally in tears. He apologized to you on the spot (you can not deny this I was there!) explained that he and gone to our local store and grabbed the die because it looked cool from a grab box along with other ones , he did not realize it was loaded.
6. You refused to listen to him
7. he said if you could just get the game in, that he would show you this is not what he was about and you had the automatic win that he just wanted to play it out .
8. you shook your head upset and said I am not going to play you now or ever.
9. He played the next day against the last placed opponent who had a bye, after he asked permission from the TO and Opponent no less!
10, you came home and blew it up , you never stopped complaining about it there also , all you did was talk, talk , talk about it with your buddies loud enough for everyone to hear. You were the exact opposite of a gentleman in that circumstance.
11. The internet detonated. they wanted blood they wanted a name, they wanted to destroy this individual.
12. i found it curious the beaky guys did not give up his name(maybe they did eventually) , that shows a tremendous amount of integrity from Steve and Matt as they really barely new this guy.
13. the internet furor was so over the top, so insane...the player never played 40K again (even without his name being revealed ). A dedicated player with a fully painted army that he loved who had played for years and was a respected member of the community .

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Out of the above, you are wrong on:
1,3,4,6,8,10, And possibly 12 and 13.

I am talking about Beaky con 2 you obviously think we are talking about Feast of blades. As I am right on 13 out of 13.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 21:21:07

Post by: pretre

 mk2 wrote:
I am talking about Beaky con 2 you obviously think we are talking about Feast of blades.

This is probably a great indication that you are off topic for the thread. Maybe start a new one?

Reply by: mk2 - click to view full reply 

41894

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 21:22:32

Post by: mk2

 pretre wrote:

 mk2 wrote:
I am talking about Beaky con 2 you obviously think we are talking about Feast of blades.

This is probably a great indication that you are off topic for the thread. Maybe start a new one?

I agree ...but no new threads, its over and done at this point.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 22:08:29

Post by: Dozer Blades

Tasty Taste you will post up one side of the story... That is how you operate.

Reply by: Fishboy - click to view full reply 

3963

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/16 22:38:18

Post by: Fishboy

 NecronLord3 wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
Lists would be interesting; we had a lot of negative feedback ourselves about things like the Transcendent C'tan in the Narrative and Trios, though it did not win said events.

Not understanding this statement? Adepticon isn't allowing the C'tan because it's unbeatable. How was it beaten?

Mike I played in the narrative and did very well for my team. However what did happen to both me and the Ctan was the special rules and other tweaks were put out to even out our win records
Basically this means it was not a good measure of the dominance of the C'Tan. In our local events it seems it has really dominated and tipped the scale but I also think people are not fully playing 7th edition lists and once everyone gets all the gibbens on board things will balance out. Either way I will be at NOVA next year just to show people how bad I am with Tyranids

I would like to see lists for this event as well but at 1500 points it does not translate well to other events as most are 1850 or 2K.

Reply by: punchdub - click to view full reply 

39162

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/17 00:31:24

Post by: punchdub

 punchdub wrote:
So, I wanted to find about how things went at this year's Feast of Blades invitational. The Internet is strangely silent. Anyone?

OP here. Evidently I was not specific enough in my original request for information, so let me narrow the scope of my inquiry in an attempt to keep the discussion on point; my point. Is there a list of rankings for the event and are the top 10 lists available? Evidently, the other "things" have now been discussed in detail and we're still no closer to understanding how the other 30+ players did.

Reply by: cyberjonesy - click to view full reply 

78216

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/17 01:04:07

Post by: cyberjonesy

DeviousDonut wrote:
I was the Tyranid player at the invitational. The only tyranid player, I was running a single CAD with:
2 Flyrants + Devourers + ES Grubs (Duh)
Malanthrope
Tervigon
30 Gaunts
20 Gargoyles
Dimachaeron
2 Carnifexes + Devourers

Over all I went 6-1. I lost my very first game on Friday. And I blame that on having a very good opponent with 6 vendetta valkerye elysian drop troops that I was in no way prepared for, and the fact that I looked at the mission packet wrong. I didn't realize the Objectives were cumulative until turn 5. I argued with my opponent over the end game score but in the end decided it was my own fault for not reading the mission properly and gave him the win. My next games involved facing White Scar Grav Bikers with khan, Ork nob bikers supported by lots of artillery, DE, Triptide tau with farsight and a knight, A knight Castigator with imp guard and pask including 2 wyverns and a hydra on a skyshield. Then finally for the top of bracket 2 I ended up facing my original opponent again. 6 Valkyrie vendetta elysian troops all with melta bombs. This time around I was very careful with the mission and knew to give him first turn since he started entirely in reserve. I came away with the win and took the top of bracket 2.

Meesa likes very much !
Care to explain how you use the army, its seems so full of synergy

Reply by: DeviousDonut - click to view full reply 

46897

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/17 14:31:08

Post by: DeviousDonut

I'd be happy to. The flyrants obviously fly forward and do their thing if I get first turn. Go for the obvious first blood rhino transport or some equivalent. Then just harass and get rear armor basically the rest of the game. The rest of the army moves slowly forward in a giant deathstar. The Dima Malanthrope Tervigon and 2 carnifexes all move pretty close to each other and the tervigon spawn goes in front to ensure everyone has a 3+ cover save. I bubble wrap them with the termagaunts who daisy chain across the whole board to any objectives I want. I then use the gargoyles as either a second daisy chaining screen or a tarpit depending on what i'm playing. The screens prevent my star from being assaulted and gives everyone 3+cover or 2+ if im in ruins. Then when i'm across the board the screens leave to tie down threats or grab objectives while the malanthrope dima and 2 carni's wreak havoc, the tervigon normally sits at midfield providing a little synapse and support.

Reply by: tag8833 - click to view full reply 

81431

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/17 14:53:55

Post by: tag8833

DeviousDonut wrote:
I'd be happy to. The flyrants obviously fly forward and do their thing if I get first turn. Go for the obvious first blood rhino transport or some equivalent. Then just harass and get rear armor basically the rest of the game. The rest of the army moves slowly forward in a giant deathstar. The Dima Malanthrope Tervigon and 2 carnifexes all move pretty close to each other and the tervigon spawn goes in front to ensure everyone has a 3+ cover save. I bubble wrap them with the termagaunts who daisy chain across the whole board to any objectives I want. I then use the gargoyles as either a second daisy chaining screen or a tarpit depending on what i'm playing. The screens prevent my star from being assaulted and gives everyone 3+cover or 2+ if im in ruins. Then when i'm across the board the screens leave to tie down threats or grab objectives while the malanthrope dima and 2 carni's wreak havoc, the tervigon normally sits at midfield providing a little synapse and support.

Do you find that the meta moving towards elite units and vehicles and away from infantry give you an advantage running a high model count army?

Reply by: DeviousDonut - click to view full reply 

46897

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/19 20:42:31

Post by: DeviousDonut

Yeah definitely, the amount of Str 6 shooting with the devourers really destroys most elite armies. The only exceptions are high toughness targets like wraithknights and dreadknights, but that's what the dimachaeron is for. The gargoyles and gaunts are to tie down anything my army can't handle, or at least tie them down long enough for the dima to eat them, then everyone consolidates towards objectives.

Reply by: Javin - click to view full reply 

33525

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/19 22:40:09

Post by: Javin

So how did the narrative event go?

Reply by: BlaxicanX - click to view full reply 

51881

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/20 02:53:29

Post by: BlaxicanX

I don't give a single gak about the cheating discussion in here.

Have we finally gotten the actual results? I'd like to see what lists did best.

Reply by: Celestine4thewin - click to view full reply 

90412

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/20 07:00:58

Post by: Celestine4thewin

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't give a single gak about the cheating discussion in here.

Have we finally gotten the actual results? I'd like to see what lists did best.

I requested the results, so if they get sent to me I'll post them on here.

Reply by: BlaxicanX - click to view full reply 

51881

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/20 09:16:39

Post by: BlaxicanX

Right on, thanks dude.

Reply by: TheSilo - click to view full reply 

84609

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/31 16:09:02

Post by: TheSilo

 pretre wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Well, 2 dice out of 120 are important depending on the specific roll they are used for. Not that I'm saying that happened, but something to think about. If I have a die that only rolls 6's and I only use it for one die roll per game, that can be a big deal (first turn/seize).

That implies knowledge that those specific dice were cheaty dice, considering that one of the two dice was left under the table I highly doubt that is the case.

You've never left your car keys in a chair or at the bar? I don't know this guy from Adam and don't have a stake in it, but saying that only .2% of his performance was increased is voodoo statistics and not representative of what 2 loaded dice in a pile of dice means. If you're going to cheat smart (and deniably), you don't make your whole pile roll better than average. You use a couple chosen dice and only use them when they will give you the most benefit.

In other words, if someone has a pile of 10,000 dice and one loaded one, that gives him a substantive advantage because they know that they can influence any roll they want by using that one die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Next Level wrote:
I agree, and that is why i feel like a cheater. Because i cannot say with any certainty that this did not happen. I have a sense of dice superstition. I like rolling medium dice for most thingd, small dice for leadership tests, and big dice for important things like one off things,and all of them for attacks! I can only say i am sorry , it was not intentional and i will help try to create a dice standard.

See and this is why I have a tendency to believe him now. So far Kenny has owned up to it and been an adult about it. So either it was really an accident or he's really convincing.

Moral of this whole story: Don't buy second-hand dice.

I don't believe the excuse for a minute. We all have favorite dice that we break out because we think they're lucky, thinking about all the times I've handled my dice (even as a casual player) it's unfathomable that someone couldn't notice at all for months.

Reply by: tyllon - click to view full reply 

47667

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/10/31 20:35:54

Post by: tyllon

 TheSilo wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Well, 2 dice out of 120 are important depending on the specific roll they are used for. Not that I'm saying that happened, but something to think about. If I have a die that only rolls 6's and I only use it for one die roll per game, that can be a big deal (first turn/seize).

That implies knowledge that those specific dice were cheaty dice, considering that one of the two dice was left under the table I highly doubt that is the case.

You've never left your car keys in a chair or at the bar? I don't know this guy from Adam and don't have a stake in it, but saying that only .2% of his performance was increased is voodoo statistics and not representative of what 2 loaded dice in a pile of dice means. If you're going to cheat smart (and deniably), you don't make your whole pile roll better than average. You use a couple chosen dice and only use them when they will give you the most benefit.

In other words, if someone has a pile of 10,000 dice and one loaded one, that gives him a substantive advantage because they know that they can influence any roll they want by using that one die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Next Level wrote:
I agree, and that is why i feel like a cheater. Because i cannot say with any certainty that this did not happen. I have a sense of dice superstition. I like rolling medium dice for most thingd, small dice for leadership tests, and big dice for important things like one off things,and all of them for attacks! I can only say i am sorry , it was not intentional and i will help try to create a dice standard.

See and this is why I have a tendency to believe him now. So far Kenny has owned up to it and been an adult about it. So either it was really an accident or he's really convincing.

Moral of this whole story: Don't buy second-hand dice.

I don't believe the excuse for a minute. We all have favorite dice that we break out because we think they're lucky, thinking about all the times I've handled my dice (even as a casual player) it's unfathomable that someone couldn't notice at all for months.

I 2nd that. Everyone knows their dice and where they came from. "feel like a cheater", No! Kenny is a cheater.

Reply by: ngilstrap - click to view full reply 

54896

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/02 02:01:30

Post by: ngilstrap

I don't examine my dice nor have I, and it's kind of ridiculous that someone would expect that I have. I have a bag of dice I've been using for years. When I buy dice, I sort of expect them to be OK, as I do pretty much anything that I purchase, especially something so ubiquitous as dice. I dump them out of the container they are in and straight into my bag with all the other dice and do so without first examining each die for efficacy.

So, let's not pretend, for whatever reason that we feel the need to persecute, that someone should be closely examining all the dice they buy and that it isn't somehow possible for someone to buy and have dice in their dice bag that are deformed, tampered, or otherwise defective.

Bad gak can and does happen to really good people, all day, every day. So, shouldn't we at least require a pattern of behavior before we condemn someone? Wouldn't you want the same for yourself if bad gak happened to you?

I would encourage we remember,

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Wiser words, there are none, because when the bell next tolls, it might very well be for you.

Reply by: Physh - click to view full reply 

73653

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/02 02:45:08

Post by: Physh

Saying everyone knows their dice isn't true. I never look at any of my dice if I buy a cube from Chessex or else where. I open them and use them, For all I know any of those dice could have been made defective and I would know it. A lot of places that sell dice typically have a box of random dice that you can buy singles or random amount that fits in a cup. I've played Kenny plenty of times when he was living here in Colorado, nothing Fishy ever. At Adepticon when I see him, nothing fishy. Like others have said if you are randomly pulling dice out of a box and tossing them, I highly doubt you are finding "that" dice every time.

Reply by: OverwatchCNC - click to view full reply 

28365

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/02 21:11:15

Post by: OverwatchCNC

And I thought this thread had run its course. How foolish.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/03 00:59:20

Post by: Dozer Blades

I know Kenny and he would never intentionally bring loaded dice - he is first a great guy and second not stupid.

Reply by: Thedecay - click to view full reply 

79769

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/03 21:20:21

Post by: Thedecay

Celestine4thewin wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't give a single gak about the cheating discussion in here.

Have we finally gotten the actual results? I'd like to see what lists did best.

I requested the results, so if they get sent to me I'll post them on here.

Did this ever happen?

Reply by: Bahkara - click to view full reply 

208

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/03 22:32:48

Post by: Bahkara

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I know Kenny and he would never intentionally bring loaded dice - he is first a great guy and second not stupid.

People do stupid things whether intentional or not. At this point its best just to move on and kenny will just have to try to repair whatever damage his reputation got from this incident.

And I agree that i thought this was done with

Reply by: NecronLord3 - click to view full reply 

6251

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/04 00:51:38

Post by: NecronLord3

Thedecay wrote:

Celestine4thewin wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't give a single gak about the cheating discussion in here.

Have we finally gotten the actual results? I'd like to see what lists did best.

I requested the results, so if they get sent to me I'll post them on here.

Did this ever happen?

Torrent of fire totally crashed at Feast. All results had to be decided with a back up spreadsheet. The results will be slow be made available.

Reply by: tyllon - click to view full reply 

47667

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/04 19:19:04

Post by: tyllon

 Bahkara wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I know Kenny and he would never intentionally bring loaded dice - he is first a great guy and second not stupid.

People do stupid things whether intentional or not. At this point its best just to move on and kenny will just have to try to repair whatever damage his reputation got from this incident.

And I agree that i thought this was done with

is not loaded dice but dice(s) with two 5s and no 2s. I don't know why people defend kenny with loaded dice when that not the issue in the first place.

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/05 06:00:46

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

SOOOOOOOO what were the Top 16 lists?

Reply by: Celestine4thewin - click to view full reply 

90412

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/07 09:25:43

Post by: Celestine4thewin

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
SOOOOOOOO what were the Top 16 lists?

All I can say is bombard FoB w/ requests for results, because they haven't so much as acknowledged a single one of my questions/requests. Kind of irritated by the complete lack of anything from them.

Reply by: iddy00711 - click to view full reply 

42234

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/25 20:44:26

Post by: iddy00711

This is just ridiculous, not only are they're no battle reports but there's not even a rough shod top 3 list up.

Reply by: Kimchi Gamer - click to view full reply 

72555

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/26 05:27:06

Post by: Kimchi Gamer

It might be because the top two lists were the guy with the cheating dice and the guy with the illegal list, lol. I think they both gave up the top spot after the tournament to the third ranked guy so its all a cock up at this point. Most likely just going to scratch the 2014 tournament off the record books. Nothing to see here. I SAID MOVE ALONG, SIR.

Reply by: iddy00711 - click to view full reply 

42234

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/27 13:17:56

Post by: iddy00711

Hah, it's stupid that people are berating a guy for essentially not adding in a 50 point scout unit to his army. Clearly the guy won mainly due to skill/ army composition.


So far I've deduced his list to be...

4 storm talons

captain cassius

5 T. war vets

wall of matrys with quad gun/ drop pod with honour guard

white scars chapter master - et al.

2 units of 5 bikes with grav

Sevrin loth

Reply by: jy2 - click to view full reply 

23113

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/27 14:57:38

Post by: jy2

 iddy00711 wrote:
Hah, it's stupid that people are berating a guy for essentially not adding in a 50 point scout unit to his army. Clearly the guy won mainly due to skill/ army composition.


So far I've deduced his list to be...

4 storm talons

captain cassius

5 T. war vets

wall of matrys with quad gun/ drop pod with honour guard

white scars chapter master - et al.

2 units of 5 bikes with grav

Sevrin loth

No, it wasn't just the scouts.

His list was illegal because it used 3 detachments (max 2):

Tyrannic War Vets
White Scars
Red Scorpions (or whatever Chapter Loth is)

Reply by: NecronLord3 - click to view full reply 

6251

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/27 17:04:11

Post by: NecronLord3

His army also wasn't illegal as Sevrin Loth can be included in any Space Marines army http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/badabupdate-v2.pdf as an hq choice and also was approved by Feast prior to the event. IMO, feast made a bad call in the last round by making him change his list.

Reply by: jy2 - click to view full reply 

23113

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/27 17:38:45

Post by: jy2

He may only be included if it is the same Chapter. Otherwise, you have to ally him in just as if you had 2 separate chapters.

Reply by: rigeld2 - click to view full reply 

47462

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/27 17:55:10

Post by: rigeld2

 NecronLord3 wrote:
His army also wasn't illegal as Sevrin Loth can be included in any Space Marines army http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/badabupdate-v2.pdf as an hq choice and also was approved by Feast prior to the event. IMO, feast made a bad call in the last round by making him change his list.

Only if it is a Red Scorpion detachment (Chapter Tactics rules, Severin's rules). It was illegal.

Reply by: NecronLord3 - click to view full reply 

6251

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/27 18:41:16

Post by: NecronLord3

No the rules are:

Sevrin Loth is a HQ choice for a Codex: Space Marines army or...

Can this be interpreted another way? Perhaps but regardless Feast approved the list therefore it was legal for the event.

Reply by: PanzerLeader - click to view full reply 

6686

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/27 18:57:22

Post by: PanzerLeader

 NecronLord3 wrote:
No the rules are:

Sevrin Loth is a HQ choice for a Codex: Space Marines army or...

Can this be interpreted another way? Perhaps but regardless Feast approved the list therefore it was legal for the event.

And by the SM codex, named characters can only be taken in detachments with matching chapter tactics.

Reply by: Crablezworth - click to view full reply 

7463

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/27 19:32:11

Post by: Crablezworth

It's the same reason you can't have tigerius lead a white scars army...

Reply by: jy2 - click to view full reply 

23113

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/27 20:19:21

Post by: jy2

 NecronLord3 wrote:
No the rules are:

Sevrin Loth is a HQ choice for a Codex: Space Marines army or...

Can this be interpreted another way? Perhaps but regardless Feast approved the list therefore it was legal for the event.

Let me quote the rule that you are missing:

Each character in this update has been assigned the appropriate Chapter Tactics and, as with the special characters presented in Codex: Space Marines, may be included as part of any detachment with the same Chapter Tactic.

Reply by: NecronLord3 - click to view full reply 

6251

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/27 20:57:37

Post by: NecronLord3

Regardless his list was approved by feast prior to the event.

Reply by: jy2 - click to view full reply 

23113

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/27 21:28:48

Post by: jy2

Feast made a mistake by approving it the first time and then made another mistake by approving an illegal list again the 2nd time around. I blame that on too much unconsolidated info out there when building lists.

But they admitted their mistake, and it wasn't Feast that disqualified the Runner-up/winner. Rather, the "winner" voluntarily stepped down and relinquished the title himself.

Reply by: iddy00711 - click to view full reply 

42234

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/27 23:50:48

Post by: iddy00711

To be honest the new 7th edition rules arent really that easy to read or to understand. And when youre running a 100+ man tournamnet with x amount of possible army compositions, it's next to impossible to track every small mistake.

I actually made the same mistake myself at a local tournament and brought a illegally list, as I misread 'only one faction allowed' for CAD. So I can sympathise with how crappy it feels.

Reply by: NecronLord3 - click to view full reply 

6251

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/28 00:10:52

Post by: NecronLord3

Also the rules for FW characters has a seperate sheet explains the chapter tactics rule. Given Sevrin Loth's stand alone section of rules, it would clearly allow Sevrin Loth in any SM army. IMO, once the approved stamp goes on the list it's legal. Changing it during the game serves no purpose.

Reply by: jy2 - click to view full reply 

23113

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/28 00:33:47

Post by: jy2

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Also the rules for FW characters has a seperate sheet explains the chapter tactics rule. Given Sevrin Loth's stand alone section of rules, it would clearly allow Sevrin Loth in any SM army. IMO, once the approved stamp goes on the list it's legal. Changing it during the game serves no purpose.

I'm not sure you are understanding this. This is not a case of whether FW is approved or not. Rather, it is a restriction with Space Marine armies themselves.

Currently, you can run Sevrin Loth. He is just as legal as Marneus Calgar or Vulkan in a Space Marines army. Now if his army was purely Red Scorpions with the Tyrannic War Vet formation, then the list would be absolutely legal.

What you CANNOT do is to put a character from one Chapter into an army made up of an entirely different Chapter. For example, you cannot just put Calgar, who is Ultramarines, into a purely Salamanders army. The only way to legally do so is to ally in his Chapter in if you want to run both Calgar and Vulkan (that is, without going Unbound). Thus, to legally run both, you need 2 detachments - Salamanders as primary for Vulkan and Ultramarines as an ally for Calgar (or vice versa).

The same applies to Loth + Ko'sorro Khan. Khan is White Scars. Loth is Red Scorpions. In order to run both in the same army, you need to ally in one of them (in this case, White Scars primary for Khan and Red Scorpion allies for Loth). In any case, that requires 2 detachments already. And then you have the Tyrannic War Veteran formation, which would make his army 3 detachments.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iddy00711 wrote:
To be honest the new 7th edition rules arent really that easy to read or to understand. And when youre running a 100+ man tournamnet with x amount of possible army compositions, it's next to impossible to track every small mistake.

I actually made the same mistake myself at a local tournament and brought a illegally list, as I misread 'only one faction allowed' for CAD. So I can sympathise with how crappy it feels.

Yeah, it's hard to keep track with all the new formations/dataslates/armies/Forgeworld/etc. material coming out constantly. Even the most hardcore of 40K bookkeepers would have problems with this.

Reply by: Wilson - click to view full reply 

77477

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/28 09:21:10

Post by: Wilson

 jy2 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Also the rules for FW characters has a seperate sheet explains the chapter tactics rule. Given Sevrin Loth's stand alone section of rules, it would clearly allow Sevrin Loth in any SM army. IMO, once the approved stamp goes on the list it's legal. Changing it during the game serves no purpose.

I'm not sure you are understanding this. This is not a case of whether FW is approved or not. Rather, it is a restriction with Space Marine armies themselves.

Currently, you can run Sevrin Loth. He is just as legal as Marneus Calgar or Vulkan in a Space Marines army. Now if his army was purely Red Scorpions with the Tyrannic War Vet formation, then the list would be absolutely legal.

What you CANNOT do is to put a character from one Chapter into an army made up of an entirely different Chapter. For example, you cannot just put Calgar, who is Ultramarines, into a purely Salamanders army. The only way to legally do so is to ally in his Chapter in if you want to run both Calgar and Vulkan (that is, without going Unbound). Thus, to legally run both, you need 2 detachments - Salamanders as primary for Vulkan and Ultramarines as an ally for Calgar (or vice versa).

The same applies to Loth + Ko'sorro Khan. Khan is White Scars. Loth is Red Scorpions. In order to run both in the same army, you need to ally in one of them (in this case, White Scars primary for Khan and Red Scorpion allies for Loth). In any case, that requires 2 detachments already. And then you have the Tyrannic War Veteran formation, which would make his army 3 detachments.

Hey man, I think the Lord of Necrons knows that, he was commenting on the layout of the rules and how they might not be clear for loth. However I would say that they seem pretty clear to me, but then again I'm very familiar with loth and his rules and i've used him several times myself.

This is direct from Loth's 6th ed update, note bits in bold.

Sevrin Loth is a HQ choice for a Codex: Space Marines army or a Space Marine Siege Assault Vanguard army with Chapter Tactics (Red Scorpions). A single Honour Guard squad may be included in an army that includes Sevrin Loth – that unit does not count against the army’s HQ allowance.

Reply by: Blackmoor - click to view full reply 

195

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/28 10:35:17

Post by: Blackmoor

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iddy00711 wrote:
To be honest the new 7th edition rules arent really that easy to read or to understand. And when youre running a 100+ man tournamnet with x amount of possible army compositions, it's next to impossible to track every small mistake.

I actually made the same mistake myself at a local tournament and brought a illegally list, as I misread 'only one faction allowed' for CAD. So I can sympathise with how crappy it feels.

Yeah, it's hard to keep track with all the new formations/dataslates/armies/Forgeworld/etc. material coming out constantly. Even the most hardcore of 40K bookkeepers would have problems with this.

Since army builder is no longer in common usage, and everyone adds up there points by themselves, and scribbles them on a sheet of paper, add to it the complexities of the 7th edition FOC, and I would not be surprised if there were a larger number of illegal lists than people think. No one is checking them though so we do not know about them.

Reply by: Julnlecs - click to view full reply 

8059

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/28 11:13:37

Post by: Julnlecs

The thing is they did check lists. Each player had to submit their lists weeks in advance. Feast approved his list. The thing I see is that he was the only one approved to run a 3 detachment list whereas everyone else only could run 2.

Reply by: Tyfus - click to view full reply 

81768

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/28 13:04:13

Post by: Tyfus

 Julnlecs wrote:
The thing is they did check lists. Each player had to submit their lists weeks in advance. Feast approved his list. The thing I see is that he was the only one approved to run a 3 detachment list whereas everyone else only could run 2.

They did check it, but didn't find it clearly.

The main reasposibility for a legal armylist is and should always be on the player.

TOs checking armylists should be viewed as a help to check lists/get illegal lists out, but is not a guarantee against wrong list and don't make illegal lists legal,

It's impossible for the TO to get everything. It's a huge job. The only place it works is as done in ETC. One country get the job to check some of the other countries lists, and send them their findings.

Reply by: Target - click to view full reply 

8311

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/28 14:27:56

Post by: Target

Tyfus wrote:

 Julnlecs wrote:
The thing is they did check lists. Each player had to submit their lists weeks in advance. Feast approved his list. The thing I see is that he was the only one approved to run a 3 detachment list whereas everyone else only could run 2.

They did check it, but didn't find it clearly.

The main reasposibility for a legal armylist is and should always be on the player.

TOs checking armylists should be viewed as a help to check lists/get illegal lists out, but is not a guarantee against wrong list and don't make illegal lists legal,

It's impossible for the TO to get everything. It's a huge job. The only place it works is as done in ETC. One country get the job to check some of the other countries lists, and send them their findings.

Having been part of the ETC process, i'll say that multiple countries are assigned to each other country. So for Team USA, we'll be assigned to ~5 other countries and responsible for checking their lists. It's still common for one or two countries checking Country Y's lists to catch things that others checking their lists missed.

Ultimate responsibility has always been and always will be on the player, as you said.

Reply by: Crablezworth - click to view full reply 

7463

Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/28 21:31:34

Post by: Crablezworth

Target wrote:
Ultimate responsibility has always been and always will be on the player, as you said.

Agreed but if I have any expectation from an event I pay to attend it's quality control. This didn't look great for the player in question but his giving up the title spoke well to his character. This didn't make feast look great given that they missed it, but then again allowing super heavies, especially absurdly undercosted fw stompas did far more damage in my eyes than missing a small detail in a list.

Reply by: NecronLord3 - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 00:11:03

Post by: NecronLord3

And how many "absurdly undercosted" super heavies were in the finals?

Reply by: iddy00711 - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 02:48:26

Post by: iddy00711

1 (big bird of TZ).

What irritates me isnt all the dice/list nonsense but trying to figure out how 4 storms talon, 10 bikes and loth beat a 999 point unbeatable lord of change. It's the equivalent of a 3 point guards man bringing down an Avatar in combat.

Reply by: NecronLord3 - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 02:58:25

Post by: NecronLord3

They played to the mission, which didn't cater to SH/GC.

Reply by: Blackmoor - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 07:00:16

Post by: Blackmoor

 Julnlecs wrote:
The thing is they did check lists. Each player had to submit their lists weeks in advance. Feast approved his list. The thing I see is that he was the only one approved to run a 3 detachment list whereas everyone else only could run 2.

That is exactly my point. This is what happens in a tournament with pre-checked list. Now think about what happens when lists are not sent in.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 14:40:08

Post by: Dozer Blades

It's best to check lists in advance and have a team. I believe army builder now supports CADs and formations.

Reply by: iddy00711 - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 15:41:12

Post by: iddy00711

@ NecronLord3 I get that but clearly there's something unique about the list that let it deal with the lord of change (and all the other super hard lists that were present). I'm not sure if you're familiar with the rules but the lord of change will almost guarantee victory in an objective match, it spawns units, flies and can regenerate wounds; making it one of the most ridiculous models in the game.


What I dont get, is how the internet can light up as soon as a lictor army wins a small tournament but when 4 storm talons smash though a major/unrestricted tournament like this one, no one bats an eyelid.

Reply by: Bahkara - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 16:27:28

Post by: Bahkara

One actually took a list out of oft field and the other got caught cheating.

I also wouldn't call the 11th Co. GT a "small tournament"

Reply by: iddy00711 - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 16:48:34

Post by: iddy00711

Right the change from white scar bikers to red scorpions isnt that big, +1 jink, S5 how and hit and run. The only way to access whether this had an effect on the tournament as a whole, is to look at each match game by game. Which is why we need more information, a battle report of some kind or just a general overview from people who were there.


As for the guy with the loaded dice, it was one or two, I seriously doubt that had such a big effect on his game. But once again it's hard to judge with no evidence/ battle report.



My own opinion is that tournament organisers should make submitted lists public so the burden of double checking the list is also on the 40k community rather then just a handful of people.

Reply by: Tyfus - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 18:55:03

Post by: Tyfus

Right the change from white scar bikers to red scorpions isnt that big, +1 jink, S5 how and hit and run. The only way to access whether this had an effect on the tournament as a whole, is to look at each match game by game. Which is why we need more information, a battle report of some kind or just a general overview from people who were there.

The big thing is that he got acces to good units from 3 sources, while the rest only got to choose from 2. If this is revaled after he has played games, the soulution is easy IMO from a TO. He gets expelled from the GT. If he asked before if this combo is allowed and got a yes, it's more difficult of course.

As for the guy with the loaded dice, it was one or two, I seriously doubt that had such a big effect on his game. But once again it's hard to judge with no evidence/ battle report.

If a player is cought with loaded dices in his dice-pool the choice as a TO is clear; he must be expelled from the tournament. There should be no reason to try to backtrack his games and try to find out how many times they where used and so on.

The argument about just a few dices are silly IMO. A lot of games are decided on a single roll. Think about roll of who goes first, seize and when game ends, to get the demon book inv save of, and so on.

Reply by: iddy00711 - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 19:35:05

Post by: iddy00711

@Tyfus
That's true, technically his list wasnt 'legal' until after round 6, but then he changed it and still won games at the top tables.
But you can't make sweeping generalisations until you look at the effect of bring 3 sources had on his games.

As for his 'punishment', that should have be up the people playing tournament since it directly affected them. If they were ok with it, then there shouldnt be a problem.

Reply by: Tyfus - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 19:53:33

Post by: Tyfus

How many detachments you can use is a big deal in competitive play.

When the illegal list has too many detacments it's impossibel to back track his game. That is possible in some other cases. For example if you are 5 points over because a melta bomb on a sergeant, but the bomb hasnt been used yet. So delete the bomb and continue. But even then it's difficult, which part of the list is over?

And his list was still illegal after the correction, but the TO seemed to miss it.

Reply by: iddy00711 - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 21:51:59

Post by: iddy00711

Really? How do you know?

Not that impossible, he only played a handful of people, I'm sure he'd remember when white scar chapter tactics would of given him the edge. Once again some kind of response from someone who played him would clear it up.

Reply by: Tyfus - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 22:06:14

Post by: Tyfus

 iddy00711 wrote:
Really? How do you know?

Not that impossible, he only played a handful of people, I'm sure he'd remember when white scar chapter tactics would of given him the edge. Once again some kind of response from someone who played him would clear it up.

The correction he was allowed to do for the rest of his games was to put in a minimum scout squad from red scorpions chapter. He then had a legal ally detachemnt with Loth and the scouts. The problem who was still there however, was that it was 3 detachment. The limit for the event was 2.

To ask if he didnt have benifit of white scars seems strange. Did he never use scout, hit and run, jink save or hammer of wrath in none of his games ? Seems rather teoretical. And how can you tell that white scar should be dropped, and not the ultramarines ? Or Loth ?

Point is simple, With that sort of illegal list he should be exluded. IMO it's not a call for the players he played, but something the TO has to step up and do.

And by exluded i mean that he should loose all his wins, so he can't win the event.

Reply by: Thud - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 22:20:15

Post by: Thud

Jesus, Iddy, if you're going to get into an online argument about something that happened at a tournament, then at least get the basics right. All the info you need is in this thread.

He started off with an illegal list (because apparently Space Marines Chapter Tactics is a super complicated concept) and then the TO made him change his list to one that was, per the tournament rules, still illegal. What's the point of even having tournament rules then, if that's irrelevant?

Also, 11th Company had about twice as many people as Feast of Blades.

Reply by: Blackmoor - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 23:13:15

Post by: Blackmoor

X

Reply by: iddy00711 - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 23:28:40

Post by: iddy00711

Hah easy mate, It's not an argument, it's a friendly discussion about what happened at the event. I dont really care about the ethics of the whole thing I just wanna know how the list was played and the actual gaming side of the event.

Yeah my bad, When I first read the thread (5 weeks ago), I didnt realise 3 sources was illegal at that tournament, slight mix up on my side .


@blackmoor

Apparently it was two dice out of 120.

Reply by: Target - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/29 23:44:15

Post by: Target

 iddy00711 wrote:
@ NecronLord3 I get that but clearly there's something unique about the list that let it deal with the lord of change (and all the other super hard lists that were present). I'm not sure if you're familiar with the rules but the lord of change will almost guarantee victory in an objective match, it spawns units, flies and can regenerate wounds; making it one of the most ridiculous models in the game.


What I dont get, is how the internet can light up as soon as a lictor army wins a small tournament but when 4 storm talons smash though a major/unrestricted tournament like this one, no one bats an eyelid.

11th Company had either 58 or 59 people, Feast of Blades this year, the event you're talking about, had just over 30 if memory serves. Also, storm talons are a legitimate unit, most people barely remembered lictors were in the codex.

Reply by: Bahkara - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/30 01:50:25

Post by: Bahkara

 iddy00711 wrote:

@blackmoor

Apparently it was two dice out of 120.

It has been confirmed by someone that watched the whole thing that it was more than 2

Reply by: NecronLord3 - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/30 02:02:47

Post by: NecronLord3

 iddy00711 wrote:
@ NecronLord3 I get that but clearly there's something unique about the list that let it deal with the lord of change (and all the other super hard lists that were present). I'm not sure if you're familiar with the rules but the lord of change will almost guarantee victory in an objective match, it spawns units, flies and can regenerate wounds; making it one of the most ridiculous models in the game.


What I dont get, is how the internet can light up as soon as a lictor army wins a small tournament but when 4 storm talons smash though a major/unrestricted tournament like this one, no one bats an eyelid.

Kenny also designed the scenarios for feast. The mission I watched had a table quarters objective where he was able to deny his quarter from the LoC and due to the quarters being scored based on number of units, not cost of units, the LoC player was at a disadvantage because he couldn't summon enough units to make up for the fact that 999 points was wrapped up in one model where Kenny had multiple cheap units and could score against the LoC player. Like I said mission design discouraged the SH/GC lists but didn't eliminate them as being viable.

Reply by: Blackmoor - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/11/30 02:31:45

Post by: Blackmoor

X

Reply by: Kriswall - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/12/05 18:08:56

Post by: Kriswall

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Regardless his list was approved by feast prior to the event.

This seems like the main issue. If the tournament approved the list, the tournament is at fault.

Reply by: Wolves for the Wolf God - click to view full reply 

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Feast of Blades results @ 2014/12/30 22:31:15

Post by: Wolves for the Wolf God

 Kriswall wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Regardless his list was approved by feast prior to the event.

This seems like the main issue. If the tournament approved the list, the tournament is at fault.

As long as he didn't go in maliciously hoping it wasn't picked up. Which i highly doubt was even a consideration. Human error is just that.