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Feast made a mistake by approving it the first time and then made another mistake by approving an illegal list again the 2nd time around. I blame that on too much unconsolidated info out there when building lists.

But they admitted their mistake, and it wasn't Feast that disqualified the Runner-up/winner. Rather, the "winner" voluntarily stepped down and relinquished the title himself.

To be honest the new 7th edition rules arent really that easy to read or to understand. And when youre running a 100+ man tournamnet with x amount of possible army compositions, it's next to impossible to track every small mistake.

I actually made the same mistake myself at a local tournament and brought a illegally list, as I misread 'only one faction allowed' for CAD. So I can sympathise with how crappy it feels.

Also the rules for FW characters has a seperate sheet explains the chapter tactics rule. Given Sevrin Loth's stand alone section of rules, it would clearly allow Sevrin Loth in any SM army. IMO, once the approved stamp goes on the list it's legal. Changing it during the game serves no purpose.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Also the rules for FW characters has a seperate sheet explains the chapter tactics rule. Given Sevrin Loth's stand alone section of rules, it would clearly allow Sevrin Loth in any SM army. IMO, once the approved stamp goes on the list it's legal. Changing it during the game serves no purpose.

I'm not sure you are understanding this. This is not a case of whether FW is approved or not. Rather, it is a restriction with Space Marine armies themselves.

Currently, you can run Sevrin Loth. He is just as legal as Marneus Calgar or Vulkan in a Space Marines army. Now if his army was purely Red Scorpions with the Tyrannic War Vet formation, then the list would be absolutely legal.

What you CANNOT do is to put a character from one Chapter into an army made up of an entirely different Chapter. For example, you cannot just put Calgar, who is Ultramarines, into a purely Salamanders army. The only way to legally do so is to ally in his Chapter in if you want to run both Calgar and Vulkan (that is, without going Unbound). Thus, to legally run both, you need 2 detachments - Salamanders as primary for Vulkan and Ultramarines as an ally for Calgar (or vice versa).

The same applies to Loth + Ko'sorro Khan. Khan is White Scars. Loth is Red Scorpions. In order to run both in the same army, you need to ally in one of them (in this case, White Scars primary for Khan and Red Scorpion allies for Loth). In any case, that requires 2 detachments already. And then you have the Tyrannic War Veteran formation, which would make his army 3 detachments.




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 iddy00711 wrote:
To be honest the new 7th edition rules arent really that easy to read or to understand. And when youre running a 100+ man tournamnet with x amount of possible army compositions, it's next to impossible to track every small mistake.

I actually made the same mistake myself at a local tournament and brought a illegally list, as I misread 'only one faction allowed' for CAD. So I can sympathise with how crappy it feels.

Yeah, it's hard to keep track with all the new formations/dataslates/armies/Forgeworld/etc. material coming out constantly. Even the most hardcore of 40K bookkeepers would have problems with this.

 jy2 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Also the rules for FW characters has a seperate sheet explains the chapter tactics rule. Given Sevrin Loth's stand alone section of rules, it would clearly allow Sevrin Loth in any SM army. IMO, once the approved stamp goes on the list it's legal. Changing it during the game serves no purpose.

I'm not sure you are understanding this. This is not a case of whether FW is approved or not. Rather, it is a restriction with Space Marine armies themselves.

Currently, you can run Sevrin Loth. He is just as legal as Marneus Calgar or Vulkan in a Space Marines army. Now if his army was purely Red Scorpions with the Tyrannic War Vet formation, then the list would be absolutely legal.

What you CANNOT do is to put a character from one Chapter into an army made up of an entirely different Chapter. For example, you cannot just put Calgar, who is Ultramarines, into a purely Salamanders army. The only way to legally do so is to ally in his Chapter in if you want to run both Calgar and Vulkan (that is, without going Unbound). Thus, to legally run both, you need 2 detachments - Salamanders as primary for Vulkan and Ultramarines as an ally for Calgar (or vice versa).

The same applies to Loth + Ko'sorro Khan. Khan is White Scars. Loth is Red Scorpions. In order to run both in the same army, you need to ally in one of them (in this case, White Scars primary for Khan and Red Scorpion allies for Loth). In any case, that requires 2 detachments already. And then you have the Tyrannic War Veteran formation, which would make his army 3 detachments.

Hey man, I think the Lord of Necrons knows that, he was commenting on the layout of the rules and how they might not be clear for loth. However I would say that they seem pretty clear to me, but then again I'm very familiar with loth and his rules and i've used him several times myself.

This is direct from Loth's 6th ed update, note bits in bold.

Sevrin Loth is a HQ choice for a Codex: Space Marines army or a Space Marine Siege Assault Vanguard army with Chapter Tactics (Red Scorpions). A single Honour Guard squad may be included in an army that includes Sevrin Loth – that unit does not count against the army’s HQ allowance.

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 iddy00711 wrote:
To be honest the new 7th edition rules arent really that easy to read or to understand. And when youre running a 100+ man tournamnet with x amount of possible army compositions, it's next to impossible to track every small mistake.

I actually made the same mistake myself at a local tournament and brought a illegally list, as I misread 'only one faction allowed' for CAD. So I can sympathise with how crappy it feels.

Yeah, it's hard to keep track with all the new formations/dataslates/armies/Forgeworld/etc. material coming out constantly. Even the most hardcore of 40K bookkeepers would have problems with this.

The thing is they did check lists. Each player had to submit their lists weeks in advance. Feast approved his list. The thing I see is that he was the only one approved to run a 3 detachment list whereas everyone else only could run 2.

 Julnlecs wrote:
The thing is they did check lists. Each player had to submit their lists weeks in advance. Feast approved his list. The thing I see is that he was the only one approved to run a 3 detachment list whereas everyone else only could run 2.

They did check it, but didn't find it clearly.

The main reasposibility for a legal armylist is and should always be on the player.

TOs checking armylists should be viewed as a help to check lists/get illegal lists out, but is not a guarantee against wrong list and don't make illegal lists legal,

It's impossible for the TO to get everything. It's a huge job. The only place it works is as done in ETC. One country get the job to check some of the other countries lists, and send them their findings.

Tyfus wrote:

 Julnlecs wrote:
The thing is they did check lists. Each player had to submit their lists weeks in advance. Feast approved his list. The thing I see is that he was the only one approved to run a 3 detachment list whereas everyone else only could run 2.

They did check it, but didn't find it clearly.

The main reasposibility for a legal armylist is and should always be on the player.

TOs checking armylists should be viewed as a help to check lists/get illegal lists out, but is not a guarantee against wrong list and don't make illegal lists legal,

It's impossible for the TO to get everything. It's a huge job. The only place it works is as done in ETC. One country get the job to check some of the other countries lists, and send them their findings.

Having been part of the ETC process, i'll say that multiple countries are assigned to each other country. So for Team USA, we'll be assigned to ~5 other countries and responsible for checking their lists. It's still common for one or two countries checking Country Y's lists to catch things that others checking their lists missed.

Ultimate responsibility has always been and always will be on the player, as you said.

Target wrote:
Ultimate responsibility has always been and always will be on the player, as you said.

Agreed but if I have any expectation from an event I pay to attend it's quality control. This didn't look great for the player in question but his giving up the title spoke well to his character. This didn't make feast look great given that they missed it, but then again allowing super heavies, especially absurdly undercosted fw stompas did far more damage in my eyes than missing a small detail in a list.

And how many "absurdly undercosted" super heavies were in the finals?

1 (big bird of TZ).

What irritates me isnt all the dice/list nonsense but trying to figure out how 4 storms talon, 10 bikes and loth beat a 999 point unbeatable lord of change. It's the equivalent of a 3 point guards man bringing down an Avatar in combat.

They played to the mission, which didn't cater to SH/GC.

 Julnlecs wrote:
The thing is they did check lists. Each player had to submit their lists weeks in advance. Feast approved his list. The thing I see is that he was the only one approved to run a 3 detachment list whereas everyone else only could run 2.

That is exactly my point. This is what happens in a tournament with pre-checked list. Now think about what happens when lists are not sent in.

It's best to check lists in advance and have a team. I believe army builder now supports CADs and formations.

@ NecronLord3 I get that but clearly there's something unique about the list that let it deal with the lord of change (and all the other super hard lists that were present). I'm not sure if you're familiar with the rules but the lord of change will almost guarantee victory in an objective match, it spawns units, flies and can regenerate wounds; making it one of the most ridiculous models in the game.


What I dont get, is how the internet can light up as soon as a lictor army wins a small tournament but when 4 storm talons smash though a major/unrestricted tournament like this one, no one bats an eyelid.

One actually took a list out of oft field and the other got caught cheating.

I also wouldn't call the 11th Co. GT a "small tournament"

Right the change from white scar bikers to red scorpions isnt that big, +1 jink, S5 how and hit and run. The only way to access whether this had an effect on the tournament as a whole, is to look at each match game by game. Which is why we need more information, a battle report of some kind or just a general overview from people who were there.


As for the guy with the loaded dice, it was one or two, I seriously doubt that had such a big effect on his game. But once again it's hard to judge with no evidence/ battle report.



My own opinion is that tournament organisers should make submitted lists public so the burden of double checking the list is also on the 40k community rather then just a handful of people.

Right the change from white scar bikers to red scorpions isnt that big, +1 jink, S5 how and hit and run. The only way to access whether this had an effect on the tournament as a whole, is to look at each match game by game. Which is why we need more information, a battle report of some kind or just a general overview from people who were there.

The big thing is that he got acces to good units from 3 sources, while the rest only got to choose from 2. If this is revaled after he has played games, the soulution is easy IMO from a TO. He gets expelled from the GT. If he asked before if this combo is allowed and got a yes, it's more difficult of course.

As for the guy with the loaded dice, it was one or two, I seriously doubt that had such a big effect on his game. But once again it's hard to judge with no evidence/ battle report.

If a player is cought with loaded dices in his dice-pool the choice as a TO is clear; he must be expelled from the tournament. There should be no reason to try to backtrack his games and try to find out how many times they where used and so on.

The argument about just a few dices are silly IMO. A lot of games are decided on a single roll. Think about roll of who goes first, seize and when game ends, to get the demon book inv save of, and so on.

@Tyfus
That's true, technically his list wasnt 'legal' until after round 6, but then he changed it and still won games at the top tables.
But you can't make sweeping generalisations until you look at the effect of bring 3 sources had on his games.

As for his 'punishment', that should have be up the people playing tournament since it directly affected them. If they were ok with it, then there shouldnt be a problem.

How many detachments you can use is a big deal in competitive play.

When the illegal list has too many detacments it's impossibel to back track his game. That is possible in some other cases. For example if you are 5 points over because a melta bomb on a sergeant, but the bomb hasnt been used yet. So delete the bomb and continue. But even then it's difficult, which part of the list is over?

And his list was still illegal after the correction, but the TO seemed to miss it.

Really? How do you know?

Not that impossible, he only played a handful of people, I'm sure he'd remember when white scar chapter tactics would of given him the edge. Once again some kind of response from someone who played him would clear it up.

 iddy00711 wrote:
Really? How do you know?

Not that impossible, he only played a handful of people, I'm sure he'd remember when white scar chapter tactics would of given him the edge. Once again some kind of response from someone who played him would clear it up.

The correction he was allowed to do for the rest of his games was to put in a minimum scout squad from red scorpions chapter. He then had a legal ally detachemnt with Loth and the scouts. The problem who was still there however, was that it was 3 detachment. The limit for the event was 2.

To ask if he didnt have benifit of white scars seems strange. Did he never use scout, hit and run, jink save or hammer of wrath in none of his games ? Seems rather teoretical. And how can you tell that white scar should be dropped, and not the ultramarines ? Or Loth ?

Point is simple, With that sort of illegal list he should be exluded. IMO it's not a call for the players he played, but something the TO has to step up and do.

And by exluded i mean that he should loose all his wins, so he can't win the event.

Jesus, Iddy, if you're going to get into an online argument about something that happened at a tournament, then at least get the basics right. All the info you need is in this thread.

He started off with an illegal list (because apparently Space Marines Chapter Tactics is a super complicated concept) and then the TO made him change his list to one that was, per the tournament rules, still illegal. What's the point of even having tournament rules then, if that's irrelevant?

Also, 11th Company had about twice as many people as Feast of Blades.

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Hah easy mate, It's not an argument, it's a friendly discussion about what happened at the event. I dont really care about the ethics of the whole thing I just wanna know how the list was played and the actual gaming side of the event.

Yeah my bad, When I first read the thread (5 weeks ago), I didnt realise 3 sources was illegal at that tournament, slight mix up on my side .


@blackmoor

Apparently it was two dice out of 120.

 iddy00711 wrote:
@ NecronLord3 I get that but clearly there's something unique about the list that let it deal with the lord of change (and all the other super hard lists that were present). I'm not sure if you're familiar with the rules but the lord of change will almost guarantee victory in an objective match, it spawns units, flies and can regenerate wounds; making it one of the most ridiculous models in the game.


What I dont get, is how the internet can light up as soon as a lictor army wins a small tournament but when 4 storm talons smash though a major/unrestricted tournament like this one, no one bats an eyelid.

11th Company had either 58 or 59 people, Feast of Blades this year, the event you're talking about, had just over 30 if memory serves. Also, storm talons are a legitimate unit, most people barely remembered lictors were in the codex.

 iddy00711 wrote:

@blackmoor

Apparently it was two dice out of 120.

It has been confirmed by someone that watched the whole thing that it was more than 2

 iddy00711 wrote:
@ NecronLord3 I get that but clearly there's something unique about the list that let it deal with the lord of change (and all the other super hard lists that were present). I'm not sure if you're familiar with the rules but the lord of change will almost guarantee victory in an objective match, it spawns units, flies and can regenerate wounds; making it one of the most ridiculous models in the game.


What I dont get, is how the internet can light up as soon as a lictor army wins a small tournament but when 4 storm talons smash though a major/unrestricted tournament like this one, no one bats an eyelid.

Kenny also designed the scenarios for feast. The mission I watched had a table quarters objective where he was able to deny his quarter from the LoC and due to the quarters being scored based on number of units, not cost of units, the LoC player was at a disadvantage because he couldn't summon enough units to make up for the fact that 999 points was wrapped up in one model where Kenny had multiple cheap units and could score against the LoC player. Like I said mission design discouraged the SH/GC lists but didn't eliminate them as being viable.

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