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I'm pretty sure I know who's behind the 1500pts because last time I was in Colorado, I know they were debating on the points level. I will say that I think 40k going smaller points levels, % restriction, and two lists would make for a different meta and make list chicken oh, so sweet.

Josh is a baller dude and he's really that good. Teach the guy a new game the night before and he'll win a tournament in it the next damn day. Literally. I saw it. Didn't even use his own models... but won some to keep playing! Awesome guy and great looking armies to boot. I 100% believe it's an honest mistake all around.

Played Kenny B once at Feast in '12 I believe. Almost had him... almost. XD Granted I don't know him that well, and shady dice are always skeptical, but after more facts have come in it just seems like the case of worst coincidence ever. I hope better attention is paid in the future, but I do hope GTs don't start enforcing dice purchases and what not off one event mishap.

arjak15 wrote:
Did any flying armies do good? How about SW?

I played the only Pure SW list, and think had 1 of 2 SWs at all in detachments. I didn't expect to be able to attend Feast this year, and if I did was going to buy and play SW. Did poorly with them but what do you expect when I bought and painted over a 2-3 week period with no test games. Played Vince with his 999pt FW Lord of Change game 1 and while intimidating as it was, tried to played the mission and slow down the big bird and didnt do squat that game. Vince clearly clarified anything that needed to be with the 999pt Bird, and it was still a fun game. game 2 and game 5 I played against Pure DE from Utah, my favorite opponent by far because our games turn into narratives practically and we both had fun even if it went bad for one of us a turn. played Tri-tide Tau that I almost pulled a win thanks to Iron Arm on Runepriest with the Relic and came down to rolling a final invuln save at the top of 5 to determine if I would win or not. Played GateGravs w/ Tiggy and Draigo game 4 and played a BT w/ Warhound game 6. Terrain favored my games against Tau and the Warhound, all I could do is roll 2's.

As for Kenny and Everything else. I am hearing about it all 2nd hand as I went home to watch football after my knock out game against the warhound. I've played Kenny multiple times when he was living in the springs and never had the issue of cheating come up, He is just a great player, and out of all the tournaments he has attended this is the first that something like this as happened concerning him to my knowledge. It takes a lot to say what both him and Josh have said and are able to be ok saying it. It also takes a lot for Kenny to respect those in the team tournament for something that happened in the invitational.

I really think it'd be easy and smart for tournies to just provide a dice pool OR require players to use a maximum of 3 dice variants per player.

I was at FoB just watching, not playing, and saw a lot of mixed dice rolls with all different sets of dice. It's stupid annoying and confusing to sit there and stare at weird dice it all kinds of different sizes, colors and pip variants to try and figure out if a frickin' spell went off or not. Also, cheating prevention and such.

 TheKbob wrote:
I hope better attention is paid in the future, but I do hope GTs don't start enforcing dice purchases and what not off one event mishap.

Problem is these aren't "one off" issues. FoB this year.. Beaky Con 2 yrs ago and before that there were others. These problems pop up more often than we like and what these things do is put a bad light on both the player and the host Tournament. Its why for the past 5 years we have had a Dice rule where we supply new dice for everyone to use at the BFS. Its goes a step to protect the integrity of the event as well as the players.. I know its not always popular to make people play with other dice than there own.

Other Tournaments provide dice pools as well which is a great idea too.

Theres always the chance of cheater dice making there way into Tournaments that provide dice.. however I would consider that an easier way of defining intent of the player.

All I can say is protect your Tournament

Hey, any rough idea what Joshua's (i.e. the guy who won) list was? I going into a tourny myself and could do with some inspiration on what to take.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
Takes a lot to step up and do something like this, Josh. Well done, especially considering all of the circumstances. I had a blast at FoB, it was fun, well run, and I plan on coming back again next year.

We all know you where too busy drinking yourself into a coma reece, we know you didnt remember it.

Lol, some truth to that!

Looking forward to having a chance to talk with you at LVO reecius. Hopefully I wont be completely hammered this time......

"Bought them on eBay" Ok, so that is as simple as showing us the transaction within eBay.

Will we see it? I doubt it. Even if he does, it's your job to ensure you're not playing with 'loaded' dice.

Where is your birth certificate? Thanks Obama. =D

Celestine4thewin wrote:
I took Sisters w/ a Knight Paladin. Got Kenny down to a squad of Daemonettes in the first round but he had points advantage and won, beat GK Centurion Star round 2, lost to a White Scars army (had him down to 3 bikes and one had the relic), beat DE in the last placement round and ended up in Bracket 3 on tiebreakers. First round beat Black Templars drop pod army w/ LR, second round beat a Necron list featuring two Command Barges, 3 Annihilation barges, 1 night scythe and 2 Ghost Arks. He played well but my range and outflanking/deep strike managed to overcome his fail at killing the knight with practically his whole.army shooting it turn 3. Last round of bracket 3 I lost to my friend John Capson who played Invisibility-star of 7 bright glances, 3 wave serpents, WK. He kept it all in reserve aside from the star and was able to grab 3/5 objectives to secure the win (I lost two units and he didn't lose any).

 Physh wrote:
I played the only Pure SW list, and think had 1 of 2 SWs at all in detachments. I didn't expect to be able to attend Feast this year, and if I did was going to buy and play SW. Did poorly with them but what do you expect when I bought and painted over a 2-3 week period with no test games. Played Vince with his 999pt FW Lord of Change game 1 and while intimidating as it was, tried to played the mission and slow down the big bird and didnt do squat that game. Vince clearly clarified anything that needed to be with the 999pt Bird, and it was still a fun game. game 2 and game 5 I played against Pure DE from Utah, my favorite opponent by far because our games turn into narratives practically and we both had fun even if it went bad for one of us a turn. played Tri-tide Tau that I almost pulled a win thanks to Iron Arm on Runepriest with the Relic and came down to rolling a final invuln save at the top of 5 to determine if I would win or not. Played GateGravs w/ Tiggy and Draigo game 4 and played a BT w/ Warhound game 6. Terrain favored my games against Tau and the Warhound, all I could do is roll 2's.

Thanks guys. This is the reason I came to this thread. I would really like to see the final results from both the Invitational and the Open. It was 32 in the Invitational and only 24 in the Open? I am especially interested because of Feast's choice of missions, and army composition rules. I would generally like to know if they altered the outcome in a significant way.

So it's looking like the consensus is its okay to use an illegal army list for whatever reason. Kind of surprising.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's looking like the consensus is its okay to use an illegal army list for whatever reason. Kind of surprising.

not the consensus.
the rules for what is and what isn't legal are in flux. he didn't right down misinformation or try to game the system. it was a mistake. Back in 4th edition i was playing at the uk gt heat 1 and wrote my army list saturday morning. I was 2 points over due to a krak grenade. this was discovered during round two and I received a loss on game one. the list was fixed during game two and was allowed to finish the event.

the player should have been given a loss in each game he played the illegal list and allowed to continue with a corrected list.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's looking like the consensus is its okay to use an illegal army list for whatever reason. Kind of surprising.

No its okay to use an army list where there was obviously intent to use the correct list(as was seen by contact with the TO's among other things) and that accidents happen. We all admit we are in a time of rapid flux, mistakes are going to happen. People are going to make basic mistakes, so are TO's.

It is just part of the growing process considering there is so much variation in army construction across events. TO's are scrambling to try and put on the best events they can in such a short time.

I don't blame the TO's these are people who are putting on all this time and effort because they LOVE this game, they put forward so much more than we do(some even doing things at a personal loss/risk) just so we have plenty of events to go to. If they made a slight mistake in checking everyone's lists I say let it slide. The player who won volunteered to send all the prize support he received to the other person, even though no one asked or demanded that he did.

Everyone who has met Kenny can vouch for his character, he had two dice out of 120, one of which was left behind which was the source that resulting in the error being found. Out of all the dice rolled in a game those two would not make a significant difference in the long term. It effected 1/6 rolls on 1/60 dice that is a .2% increase in his favor, I doubt any of the games were even that close. He didn't resist at all, publicly apologized and willingly withdrew from the tournament.

In my mind I see this as a positive about our community as a whole. People who realize their error not only apologize, but take additional steps to rectify the situation. We have our donkey-caves, but so does every community.

Well, 2 dice out of 120 are important depending on the specific roll they are used for. Not that I'm saying that happened, but something to think about. If I have a die that only rolls 6's and I only use it for one die roll per game, that can be a big deal (first turn/seize).

 pretre wrote:
Well, 2 dice out of 120 are important depending on the specific roll they are used for. Not that I'm saying that happened, but something to think about. If I have a die that only rolls 6's and I only use it for one die roll per game, that can be a big deal (first turn/seize).

That implies knowledge that those specific dice were cheaty dice, considering that one of the two dice was left under the table I highly doubt that is the case.

 Leth wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Well, 2 dice out of 120 are important depending on the specific roll they are used for. Not that I'm saying that happened, but something to think about. If I have a die that only rolls 6's and I only use it for one die roll per game, that can be a big deal (first turn/seize).

That implies knowledge that those specific dice were cheaty dice, considering that one of the two dice was left under the table I highly doubt that is the case.

This.

Leth wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's looking like the consensus is its okay to use an illegal army list for whatever reason. Kind of surprising.

No its okay to use an army list where there was obviously intent to use the correct list(as was seen by contact with the TO's among other things) and that accidents happen. We all admit we are in a time of rapid flux, mistakes are going to happen. People are going to make basic mistakes, so are TO's.

It is just part of the growing process considering there is so much variation in army construction across events. TO's are scrambling to try and put on the best events they can in such a short time.

I don't blame the TO's these are people who are putting on all this time and effort because they LOVE this game, they put forward so much more than we do(some even doing things at a personal loss/risk) just so we have plenty of events to go to. If they made a slight mistake in checking everyone's lists I say let it slide. The player who won volunteered to send all the prize support he received to the other person, even though no one asked or demanded that he did.

Everyone who has met Kenny can vouch for his character, he had two dice out of 120, one of which was left behind which was the source that resulting in the error being found. Out of all the dice rolled in a game those two would not make a significant difference in the long term. It effected 1/6 rolls on 1/60 dice that is a .2% increase in his favor, I doubt any of the games were even that close. He didn't resist at all, publicly apologized and willingly withdrew from the tournament.

In my mind I see this as a positive about our community as a whole. People who realize their error not only apologize, but take additional steps to rectify the situation. We have our donkey-caves, but so does every community.

Thanks for the support man,but it is the literal definition of cheating. That is why i bowed out of both events. I was mortified and embarrassed. I do have the purchase history in my amazon account still and plan on sharing it on FB this week. I don't really think it proves much because anyone can buy dice from different sellers and say what ever they want. I think character generator dice were simply sorted into the dice by the seller randomly.
-Kenny

pretre wrote:Well, 2 dice out of 120 are important depending on the specific roll they are used for. Not that I'm saying that happened, but something to think about. If I have a die that only rolls 6's and I only use it for one die roll per game, that can be a big deal (first turn/seize).

I agree, and that is why i feel like a cheater. Because i cannot say with any certainty that this did not happen. I have a sense of dice superstition. I like rolling medium dice for most thingd, small dice for leadership tests, and big dice for important things like one off things,and all of them for attacks! I can only say i am sorry , it was not intentional and i will help try to create a dice standard.
-Kenny

 Leth wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Well, 2 dice out of 120 are important depending on the specific roll they are used for. Not that I'm saying that happened, but something to think about. If I have a die that only rolls 6's and I only use it for one die roll per game, that can be a big deal (first turn/seize).

That implies knowledge that those specific dice were cheaty dice, considering that one of the two dice was left under the table I highly doubt that is the case.

You've never left your car keys in a chair or at the bar? I don't know this guy from Adam and don't have a stake in it, but saying that only .2% of his performance was increased is voodoo statistics and not representative of what 2 loaded dice in a pile of dice means. If you're going to cheat smart (and deniably), you don't make your whole pile roll better than average. You use a couple chosen dice and only use them when they will give you the most benefit.

In other words, if someone has a pile of 10,000 dice and one loaded one, that gives him a substantive advantage because they know that they can influence any roll they want by using that one die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Next Level wrote:
I agree, and that is why i feel like a cheater. Because i cannot say with any certainty that this did not happen. I have a sense of dice superstition. I like rolling medium dice for most thingd, small dice for leadership tests, and big dice for important things like one off things,and all of them for attacks! I can only say i am sorry , it was not intentional and i will help try to create a dice standard.

See and this is why I have a tendency to believe him now. So far Kenny has owned up to it and been an adult about it. So either it was really an accident or he's really convincing.

Moral of this whole story: Don't buy second-hand dice.

Next Level wrote:
Thanks for the support man,but it is the literal definition of cheating.

That it was cheating was never in doubt, the only thing that was in doubt(for some people) was intent. Intent should matter more in this situation than the actual action. People were foaming at the mouth and getting their pitchforks out. Acting like they have never made a mistake before. Talks of banning or massive overhauls that need to be made to tournaments(At the TO's expense I might add, never something they need to be responsible for).

See and this is why I have a tendency to believe him now. So far Kenny has owned up to it and been an adult about it. So either it was really an accident or he's really convincing.

Honestly what he is feeling right now is a punishment far and above the actual offense.

If kenny wanted to cheat he would just come around the table and CHOKE YOU OUT. When you woke up he would tell you how they game went and give a very convincing explination why you dont have any pants on.


just saying...........

 Leth wrote:
Honestly what he is feeling right now is a punishment far and above the actual offense.

Not seeing it.

Just don't allow mixed dice. I don't think you have to provide dice, just limit each player to one set/cube. Doesn't prevent people tampering with dice but makes it a lot harder for cheaters to pick the modified dice out of a bunch of identical dice. Fast rolling isn't as much of a thing now that you parse out rolls based on weapon so it's not like having different colors/sizes saves that much time.

 Leth wrote:

Honestly what he is feeling right now is a punishment far and above the actual offense.

Woah.

Did you just really say that if you bring altered dice that are made to cheat opponents to a tournament, and you feel bad about it, it is a punishment worse than you deserve?
Really?

No, i think he is quite aware of the appearance of this issue, and is taking it exactly as he needs to.
I don't think him quitting the tournament, forfeiting all prizes, and leaving is what bothers him. It would not me. It is the proper thing to do.
If the exact thing happened to me, What would REALLY bother me is the perception that I tried to cheat when i had no intention to. that would stick in my craw something fierce! From now on, every time I made an amazing roll, my opponent might, just for a tenth of a second, glance at the dice again and wonder...

Do i think it was intentional? No, no I do not. Do I think he is being overpunished? No, no i do not.
But I do feel sorry for the guy.

IMO I really think you are truly responsable for what you do. With the issue of buying used dice and them being drilled out to remove the 2 clearly is an advantage for a MoT demons player. If thats what he was playing it would be hard for me to believe that it was an accident or honest mistake. If you incorrectly write your list, again that was your fault regardless of it being an honest mistake. Removing the model(s) that are in violation and recieving a loss for every match which the illegal list was used should be how it is handled.

I think the best course of action is DQ or games up yo that point all count as a loss. Letting people slide sets a bad precedent. It doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not.

Josh and Kenny were in the wrong... very clearly in the wrong. Both situations are understandable, but they both made decisions that broke the social contract and the rules of the Tournament.
Kenny has stood up, admitted his fault and has done what he can to fix the issue.
Josh has also stood up, worked with Tournament officials to fix the situation... and then has decided that the choice of the Tournament officials didn't go far enough to fix the situation and is reaching out to someone who was wronged.
The Tournament officials did the best that they could at the time... many of us disagree with the decision that they came to (ultimately Josh did as well), but it is a tough decision to make in the 5 minutes between rounds of a huge, multi-day tourney. Like refs in any sporting event, you need to take their judgment at face-value, and know that they made their decision with the best of intentions.

Those involved have all acted in the best way imaginable after-the-fact... and for that, I commend them all.

The beauty about loaded dices is that they dont have to be any different than your other dices

5 dices will roll normal while 2 others will roll 6 all the time ... your opponent will never notice unless he takes the dices in his hands.
There are also tricks that can be mastered to make the dices roll better. Like holding them a certain way between your fingers and throwing them horizontally will give a certain result more often.

Casino experts can be very good with this technique.

I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to use the event dice (if there are any) in preference to any I bring unless I happen to need different colors or something for say plasma & bolter shots at the same time. I know not all events sell them, but Feast has and except for one year where they sold the last set to the guy ahead of me in line -d'oh!- I have purchased sets at every FoB tourney. If nothing else it supports the event and I get to add more dice to the thousands I already own

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the best course of action is DQ or games up yo that point all count as a loss. Letting people slide sets a bad precedent. It doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not.

I find it ironic that the same guy who refused to "out" a dice cheater caught red handed at his very own Tournament (Beaky 2) now wants to "tar and feather" these 2 guys. Joshes explination actually sounds plausible.. did the TOs ok the list ? seems this is the case. Kenny unfortunatly has a harder road to over come.. but i respect him coming here and being open about it.


you guys however did everything you could to keep "your" cheater from getting known....... hipocricy much ?

Here is an article I wrote on my blog about the loaded dice at BeakyCon2 (written days after the event):

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2012/10/discussion-on-topic-of-loaded-dice-at.html

As someone who has dealt with the negative backlash on the Internet due to intentional cheating at one of my events my advice is check lists in advance (I've written an article with detailed guidelines based upon my experience), have a plan in place in case something should happen and let everyone know in advance. Not checking army lists is the same as not providing dice. It's a major pain. Everyone in the community basically wants the same thing - the ultimate authority should be the TOs. Anyways mistakes will happen from time to time and we can all learn from each other. I am a huge advocate of Torrent of Fire - it's an awesome tool for even small events. The more tools we have the better we can prepare. Not trying to rock the boat - just trying to share from my experience. If we let things slide unfortunately it will only end up potentially encouraging a certain element and not that anyone here falls into that particular domain.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Here is an article I wrote on my blog about the loaded dice at BeakyCon2 (written days after the event):

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2012/10/discussion-on-topic-of-loaded-dice-at.html

As someone who has dealt with the negative backlash on the Internet due to intentional cheating at one of my events my advice is check lists in advance (I've written an article with detailed guidelines based upon my experience), have a plan in place in case something should happen and let everyone know in advance. Not checking army lists is the same as not providing dice. It's a major pain. Everyone in the community basically wants the same thing - the ultimate authority should be the TOs. Anyways mistakes will happen from time to time and we can all learn from each other. I am a huge advocate of Torrent of Fire - it's an awesome tool for even small events. The more tools we have the better we can prepare. Not trying to rock the boat - just trying to share from my experience. If we let things slide unfortunately it will only end up potentially encouraging a certain element and not that anyone here falls into that particular domain.

I have never understood why in the US it has not been a requirement to turn in lists in advance. When I lived in Switzerland and played in France and Germany most tournaments were tracked on this site http://www.tabletoptournaments.net/index.php where you had to submit your list at least a month in advance. Amazing that a bunch of different countries/ languages/ cultures can figure it out and in the US we cannot....