As one of the more significant (read GW favoured) galactic empires, will the Tau enter into an alliance with the Imperium? Or perhaps they eventually carve enough out of Humanities realm that they force the Imperium to broker a truce? what do you think?
The entire purpose of the Tau's existence is manifest destiny as is the Imperium's. So... either the Tau gets exterminated or they eventually topple the rotting Imperium.
If the impirium has a major calamity, the tau could claim enough worlds to make the imprium have a truce with the tau. They might even ally with them if the disaster is bad enough (chaos conquering terra and the surrounding lands, ect.).
A tau-human alliance would be a fore to be reckoned with. They tau could certainly retro-fit the existing imperial manafactoriums to produce high tech gear. The tau are a lot more efficient with their recorces, and only elite troops such as space marines and storm troopers would get the big stuff as first, but the rank and file would get it eventually, shrinking in size but growing in power. The tau's technological prowess and innovation combined the the imperium's vast recorces and military might. They would be practically unstoppable. The tau also know how to run systems as small microcosms, thus not needing constant monitoring from the central unit.
Co'tor Shas wrote: If the impirium has a major calamity, the tau could claim enough worlds to make the imprium have a truce with the tau. They might even ally with them if the disaster is bad enough (chaos conquering terra and the surrounding lands, ect.).
A tau-human alliance would be a fore to be reckoned with. They tau could certainly retro-fit the existing imperial manafactoriums to produce high tech gear. The tau are a lot more efficient with their recorces, and only elite troops such as space marines and storm troopers would get the big stuff as first, but the rank and file would get it eventually, shrinking in size but growing in power. The tau's technological prowess and innovation combined the the imperium's vast recorces and military might. They would be practically unstoppable. The tau also know how to run systems as small microcosms, thus not needing constant monitoring from the central unit.
It would require a miracle for the AdMech to allow earth caste engineers anywhere near a forgeworld let alone a manufactorum. However should the Fabricator General stop being as thick as clotted cream and allow technological advancement on all fronts, a Tau-Imperium Tech sharing agreement would probably cause all the other races to wilt away from any kind of conflict. Except Chaos because they're nut and the nids because they're hungry.
Co'tor Shas wrote: If the impirium has a major calamity, the tau could claim enough worlds to make the imprium have a truce with the tau. They might even ally with them if the disaster is bad enough (chaos conquering terra and the surrounding lands, ect.).
A tau-human alliance would be a fore to be reckoned with. They tau could certainly retro-fit the existing imperial manafactoriums to produce high tech gear. The tau are a lot more efficient with their recorces, and only elite troops such as space marines and storm troopers would get the big stuff as first, but the rank and file would get it eventually, shrinking in size but growing in power. The tau's technological prowess and innovation combined the the imperium's vast recorces and military might. They would be practically unstoppable. The tau also know how to run systems as small microcosms, thus not needing constant monitoring from the central unit.
It would require a miracle for the AdMech to allow earth caste engineers anywhere near a forgeworld let alone a manufactorum. However should the Fabricator General stop being as thick as clotted cream and allow technological advancement on all fronts, a Tau-Imperium Tech sharing agreement would probably cause all the other races to wilt away from any kind of conflict. Except Chaos because they're nut and the nids because they're hungry.
True. I'm sure in a couple hundred years it will change, but it would be slow.
I've been coming up with a lot of progression scenarios lately.
Co'tor Shas wrote: If the impirium has a major calamity, the tau could claim enough worlds to make the imprium have a truce with the tau. They might even ally with them if the disaster is bad enough (chaos conquering terra and the surrounding lands, ect.).
A tau-human alliance would be a fore to be reckoned with. They tau could certainly retro-fit the existing imperial manafactoriums to produce high tech gear. The tau are a lot more efficient with their recorces, and only elite troops such as space marines and storm troopers would get the big stuff as first, but the rank and file would get it eventually, shrinking in size but growing in power. The tau's technological prowess and innovation combined the the imperium's vast recorces and military might. They would be practically unstoppable. The tau also know how to run systems as small microcosms, thus not needing constant monitoring from the central unit.
It would require a miracle for the AdMech to allow earth caste engineers anywhere near a forgeworld let alone a manufactorum. However should the Fabricator General stop being as thick as clotted cream and allow technological advancement on all fronts, a Tau-Imperium Tech sharing agreement would probably cause all the other races to wilt away from any kind of conflict. Except Chaos because they're nut and the nids because they're hungry.
True. I'm sure in a couple hundred years it will change, but it would be slow.
I've been coming up with a lot of progression scenarios lately.
Be happy to hear some of them if you've got the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing that also impedes Tau-Imperium alliances are the governing bodies of both empires, the Ethereals would never accept the terms offered by the High Lords as their pursuit of the greater good would conflict, nor would the High Lords be willing to allow the Tau to potentially spread that ideology as it conflicts with the Ecclisiarchy.
If tau shares some easy ways of mass production of superior tech that IOM was not able to figure out yet, they'd just get wiped after the current threat got dealt with. That's human nature. Remember native americans helping out the settlers, eh? So, it's really not in Tau interests to bolster IOM unless they're unaware of that common human feature.
If a calamity toppled earth, what would happen is the Imperium would revert to a few thousand petty Empires or isolated worlds. The Tau might start gobbling a few up... then the tyranids kill them all.
PhillyT wrote: If a calamity toppled earth, what would happen is the Imperium would revert to a few thousand petty Empires or isolated worlds. The Tau might start gobbling a few up... then the tyranids kill them all.
The Tau have dealt with Tyranids before... with more ease than the Imperium did. Simply because something is difficult for the Imperium doesn't mean its difficult for everyone.
The Tau and the Imperium have worked together - much as the Imperium and the Eldar have done - but with such diffrent universe views - the two Empires can only co-exist on a tempoary basis or until the Tau Empire is big enough to rate as a proper threat.
Emperor Pigeon wrote: As one of the more significant (read GW favoured) galactic empires, will the Tau enter into an alliance with the Imperium? Or perhaps they eventually carve enough out of Humanities realm that they force the Imperium to broker a truce? what do you think?
No, and No.
Tau will stay in the 40k verse as long as GW favors them.
Humans stay in the 40k verse as the main actor of the game until GW paints itself into a corner.
That being said, the Tau don't have real alliances. They plan to rule, to have you join. Not to get along independently.
Mankind isn't interested in being ruled by xeno overlords. Because old night. Because of events in Humans history that nearly undid the species. This means short lived temporary alliances are possible ( to arrange an accident later...) but long term the course is set upon a secure Galaxy , a xeno - free Galaxy.
The setup of 40k is made so No one could forge a lasting alliance. Eternal War needs eternal conflict. Eternal conflict needs reasons to keep on going.
Emperor Pigeon wrote: As one of the more significant (read GW favoured) galactic empires, will the Tau enter into an alliance with the Imperium? Or perhaps they eventually carve enough out of Humanities realm that they force the Imperium to broker a truce? what do you think?
No, and No.
Tau will stay in the 40k verse as long as GW favors them.
Humans stay in the 40k verse as the main actor of the game until GW paints itself into a corner.
That being said, the Tau don't have real alliances. They plan to rule, to have you join. Not to get along independently.
Mankind isn't interested in being ruled by xeno overlords. Because old night. Because of events in Humans history that nearly undid the species. This means short lived temporary alliances are possible ( to arrange an accident later...) but long term the course is set upon a secure Galaxy , a xeno - free Galaxy.
The setup of 40k is made so No one could forge a lasting alliance. Eternal War needs eternal conflict. Eternal conflict needs reasons to keep on going.
Imperium - Tau relations are :
- without shared interests.
Survival is a shared interest, surely the Tau are not so arrogant as to believe they can defeat entire hivefleets, with the threat of the Tyranids increasing on the eastern fringe it is entirely possible that the Imperium could set up an alliance should worst come to worst and the bulk of the hive fleet be too massive for the armies stationed there. Yes I do see how moronic it is using Xenos to kill Xenos but alas, this is the age of the Imperium.
Yeah, if the Imperium ever get's their gak in gear the Tau will be annihilated.
It's simple math, of course that doesn't actually apply in 40k because GW writers don't ever think about it, but yeah...the space frogs will go the way of all the other upstart alien races that the Imperium has encountered.
PhillyT wrote: If a calamity toppled earth, what would happen is the Imperium would revert to a few thousand petty Empires or isolated worlds. The Tau might start gobbling a few up... then the tyranids kill them all.
The Tau have dealt with Tyranids before... with more ease than the Imperium did. Simply because something is difficult for the Imperium doesn't mean its difficult for everyone.
...Hive Fleet Gorgon was a "relatively small hive fleet", and its two-year rampage took up a large chunk of the Tau empire. The Tau merely managed to exploit the one weakness the Hive fleet had -- Gorgon's unusually hyper evolving cycles are costly to the small hive fleet's biomass. The Tau were only playing an exhausting game of attrition with the Tyranids at best. Their final victory is only achieved through an uneasy (and eventually costly) alliance with an imperial fleet. I fail to see how the Tau had "more ease" dealing with the Tyranids than the Imperium.
On the other hand, said Imperial Fleet was commanded by Castellan Crask at the time, and as far as I can tell, was said to engaged with the Tau shortly afterwards.
There can be no peace between the Imperium and the Tau -- there are simply far too great a difference in ideologies and politics, not to mention all that bad blood, neither will back down. This can only end when either one of the empires is destroyed by something.
You have to remember farsight's insta-kill virus that destroyed an entire fleet within hours. If he could do it with his limited records, I'm sure that the tau empire could so just that, although the virus would have to be made specifically for each fleet to cope with differences in the genetics.
PhillyT wrote: If a calamity toppled earth, what would happen is the Imperium would revert to a few thousand petty Empires or isolated worlds. The Tau might start gobbling a few up... then the tyranids kill them all.
The Tau have dealt with Tyranids before... with more ease than the Imperium did. Simply because something is difficult for the Imperium doesn't mean its difficult for everyone.
Not really.
And the coming tyranid menace is beyond anything anyone has dealt with if the fluff is to be believed.
Co'tor Shas wrote: You have to remember farsight's insta-kill virus that destroyed an entire fleet within hours. If he could do it with his limited records, I'm sure that the tau empire could so just that, although the virus would have to be made specifically for each fleet to cope with differences in the genetics.
Same as the Imperium has the Life-eater virus and other nasty stuff - but they are cautious with it as they don't want the Nids to adapt to it and/or use it as a weapon themselves................
Tyranid Hive Fleets have destroyed a highest Grade Forge World (with on planet elite Titan legion) and all the vast firepower that such a world can muster- in 3 days- the Tau are equally susceptible to such massive and unrelenting force and more so as unlike say the Orks - they have to safeguard their large civilian populations.
According to the Cain novels, they have a formal truce post-Third Expansion attacks to deal with Nids. Lots and lots of Nids.
Given the emerging and existing threats to both the Tau and the Imperium, my prediction is this: In the darkness of the far future, there is only war. The Imperium won't ever get the chance to stop Tau expansion, but it will take the Tau millenia to conquer enough territory to actually threaten the Imperium beyond the eastern part of Ultima Segmentum. Even if they do develop faster FTL.
Being non-confrontational compared to Nids, Lolcrons, Chaos loons, Eldar pirates abducting entire worlds etc, Imperial bureaucrats and military leaders are entirely happy to neglect crushing the Tau basically forever. The Tau don't threaten the existence of the Imperium as a whole except on the very very long term.
Given the emerging and existing threats to both the Tau and the Imperium, my prediction is this: In the darkness of the far future, there is only war. The Imperium won't ever get the chance to stop Tau expansion...
How come that noone significant is gona attack the expanding tau while constantly threatening imperium?
It's like telling that: "Your plain can only reach 1200 kmph limit due to air resistance. And mine will fly 1500 kmph! If we ignore air resistance."
Given the emerging and existing threats to both the Tau and the Imperium, my prediction is this: In the darkness of the far future, there is only war. The Imperium won't ever get the chance to stop Tau expansion...
How come that noone significant is gona attack the expanding tau while constantly threatening imperium?
It's like telling that: "Your plain can only reach 1200 kmph limit due to air resistance. And mine will fly 1500 kmph! If we ignore air resistance."
My point isn't that the Imperium will be threatened and the Tau won't be, my point is that both are threatened and both have different ways of dealing with it. The Tau regards the Imperium as an existential threat (as they should), while the Imperium doesn't regard the Tau in the same way. There is no reason to believe that Tau expansion will stop given that it has continued for hundreds of years and Tau naivity decreases with every alien encounter. There is also no reason to believe that the Imperium will ever regard the Tau as large enough of a threat compared to Tyranids, Necrons, or Chaos to actually warrant crushing as long as they stay in the eastern sectors of Ultima Segmentum. Given that those sectors are on the path of least resistance for the Tau, it will be a very long time before the Imperium even bothers to try to crush the Tau. The Imperium is just utterly unassailable for the Tau, both sides know it and both sides play to that. The Imperium has bigger fish to fry, while the Tau take just enough worlds to keep their expansion going while not threatening the established order of things on the large scale.
The Imperium is a stagnant society, but one that has vastly more experience in dealing with most of the threats out there. It is also so large and dispersed that it can afford to take losses from the Tau with ease while it deals with real threats. By contrast, the Tau are getting better at dealing with the myriad threats to it and will continue to do so because they're a progressive society. The Tau will get better and better because they can and they must in order to survive.
Given the emerging and existing threats to both the Tau and the Imperium, my prediction is this: In the darkness of the far future, there is only war. The Imperium won't ever get the chance to stop Tau expansion...
How come that noone significant is gona attack the expanding tau while constantly threatening imperium?
It's like telling that: "Your plain can only reach 1200 kmph limit due to air resistance. And mine will fly 1500 kmph! If we ignore air resistance."
The advantage of being a small empire is that the threats actually have to encounter you.
Besides, the Nids are making for the Golden Throne, from what I understand. From the map, it looks like Behemoth is staying south of them and Kraken north. Gorgon was stamped out.
Given the emerging and existing threats to both the Tau and the Imperium, my prediction is this: In the darkness of the far future, there is only war. The Imperium won't ever get the chance to stop Tau expansion...
How come that noone significant is gona attack the expanding tau while constantly threatening imperium?
It's like telling that: "Your plain can only reach 1200 kmph limit due to air resistance. And mine will fly 1500 kmph! If we ignore air resistance."
My point isn't that the Imperium will be threatened and the Tau won't be, my point is that both are threatened and both have different ways of dealing with it. The Tau regards the Imperium as an existential threat (as they should), while the Imperium doesn't regard the Tau in the same way. There is no reason to believe that Tau expansion will stop given that it has continued for hundreds of years and Tau naivity decreases with every alien encounter. There is also no reason to believe that the Imperium will ever regard the Tau as large enough of a threat compared to Tyranids, Necrons, or Chaos to actually warrant crushing as long as they stay in the eastern sectors of Ultima Segmentum. Given that those sectors are on the path of least resistance for the Tau, it will be a very long time before the Imperium even bothers to try to crush the Tau. The Imperium is just utterly unassailable for the Tau, both sides know it and both sides play to that. The Imperium has bigger fish to fry, while the Tau take just enough worlds to keep their expansion going while not threatening the established order of things on the large scale.
The Imperium is a stagnant society, but one that has vastly more experience in dealing with most of the threats out there. It is also so large and dispersed that it can afford to take losses from the Tau with ease while it deals with real threats. By contrast, the Tau are getting better at dealing with the myriad threats to it and will continue to do so because they're a progressive society. The Tau will get better and better because they can and they must in order to survive.
Until they can't.
Threats that they can't actually stop:
1. Tyranids
2. Chaos
3. Orks
4. Necron
5. The Imperium
The Tau can mitigate threats in their immediate vicinity as long as none of those 5 see them as the most tempting target or dangerous threat. If at any point any of the above see the Tau as a target, they are done. They cannot stop those five because they are simply too small. No matter what perceived advantage they have technologically (which is small, minuscule, or none depending on the race) there numbers are so low that the technology cannot hope to make up the difference.
Tyranids: Are heading for the Astronomican, not the Tau Empire, in terms of priority targets. Given the structure of Tau society, genestealers and the like aren't likely to be as effective at calling down the Hive Fleets either. The Tau have pulled off some spectacular feats against the Nids, and if we take the Cain novels' implication of an Imperial-Tau alliance succeeding against the fleets, we already have a pretty good idea that the Nids don't chow down the Empire.
Chaos: The Tau are of no interest to Chaos, as they have little to no souls in the warp. Humans and other psychic capable races don't have the freedom or contact with the Tau to be a serious threat. The majority of humans live under a highly efficient police state. The Nicassar are too small in number and live in space away from Tau worlds. Chaos aren't a threat to the Tau in existential terms, bar them dropping the rest of the galaxy into the Warp or some nonsense.
3. Orks: The one threat in the galaxy that the Tau are not naive about is the Orks. They were the first hostile race encountered by the Tau. Bar a seriously huge Waagh encompassing much of the eastern sectors (which the Imperium would intervene to prevent), the Orks are not an existential threat to the Tau. They have fought the Orks since first venturing to the stars, if there is one threat they absolutely won't fall for, it is probably the Orks.
4. Necrons: the only actual existential threat to the Tau that is immediate. Who knows how many outer Tau outposts are actually Necron tomb worlds? Enough to cause trouble, certainly. The question of whether or not it is an existential threat depends on how many we're talking about, which sort of dynasties formerly controlled the worlds and the state of their armies in that area. Doesn't strike me as an existential threat on the basis of the small nature of the Empire, but it's the one within the realm of possibility for the medium term.
5. The Imperium: Has far bigger fish to fry, has a bureaucracy that deliberately stifles the sort of action you'd need to crush the Tau completely, and would be perfectly content to ignore the Tau entirely if it wasn't for Imperial prestige being at stake. The Imperium's strategy against the Tau is one of deterrence and detente. The worlds that the Tau take from the Imperium are not particularly valuable bar the latest few. When the Tau take a world, the Imperium's response is to try to take it back as opposed to trying to crush them. There are just too many responsibilities that the Imperium needs to fulfill, and as long as the Tau tiptoe as oppose to charge headlong at Imperial worlds, there will be no need for the Imperium to act: The Tau are simply not a big enough threat for any real effort to be put in to destroy them, yet they are big enough (or rather, advanced enough) to cause any such attack to require resources that would cause vast swathes of the Imperium to fall into enemy hands.
In short, the number of worlds the Tau seize is far smaller than the number the Imperium would lose due to weakening of forces elsewhere. Grand-scale mathematics is why the Imperium is not an existential threat in the short to medium term, simple as. It's not that the Imperium couldn't crush the Tau, it's that the cost would be higher than the gains.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickjager wrote: No the problem is that you are saying the Tau will cobtinue to expand onto Imperial worlds and the Imperium won't attack because of... a treaty.
4. Necrons: the only actual existential threat to the Tau that is immediate. Who knows how many outer Tau outposts are actually Necron tomb worlds? Enough to cause trouble, certainly. The question of whether or not it is an existential threat depends on how many we're talking about, which sort of dynasties formerly controlled the worlds and the state of their armies in that area. Doesn't strike me as an existential threat on the basis of the small nature of the Empire, but it's the one within the realm of possibility for the medium term.
... except that the Necrons are mostly on the opposite end of the galaxy. It's not likely they'll start waking up in the east with any more frequency than they are anywhere else... and since very few of them have woken up in the east, it's unlikely they'll pop up much more frequently.
3. Orks: The one threat in the galaxy that the Tau are not naive about is the Orks. They were the first hostile race encountered by the Tau. Bar a seriously huge Waagh encompassing much of the eastern sectors (which the Imperium would intervene to prevent), the Orks are not an existential threat to the Tau. They have fought the Orks since first venturing to the stars, if there is one threat they absolutely won't fall for, it is probably the Orks.
Mind you, orks have won the war of dakka vs tau as for the current fluff.
Besides, Tau haven't encountered really large-scale WAAAGHS! yet. And unlike tau, orks utilise warp travel, so information and reserves are much faster to arrive.
The reason why tau are more or less protected from orks is their actual weakness compared to other factions and evasive combat doctrine. Orks thrive on conflict. The harder it is to kill the enemy - the more orkses arrive and the tougher they get. From a War of Dakka we can see that tau are not a favorite enemy (orks actually have 1 word for friend and favorite enemy) of the brutal part of the greenskin society. The war style that tau utilise is not something that most orkses like. However, the cunning part adores this stuff. And as we can see, lots of shootas, meks and kommandoes were driven towards the the opportunities opened by the war of dakka. And eventually orkses won that war. They had been hopelessly outmaneuvred and outshot at first, but ork's war tactics naturally adapts and pared with VAST numbers - even for such a mid-tier WAAAAGH! - the tide eventually turned.
So, don't underestimate orks. They've once been dangerously close to killing the Emperor and only Horus's heroic intervention saved him.
The orks didn't win the war of dakka, the tau won. That's why tau still exist.
Other than that, it's pretty much correct. Although considering the state of anarchy that any WAAAGH is always in, tau generally have the advantage on info, it may be slower, but it actually gets their and is used.
Why is everybody so grim? The Imperium will disband and the Tau will either be crushed by mankind, or the Tyranids, or the Orks. any number of things except for a positive step forward. What if emps gets up, looks around and decides maybe NOT ALL XENOS are barbaric and in need of extermination. maybe we do enter into an alliance that allows for major refitting of imperial manufactorums and the vast production power of the Imperium allows for both Empires to effectively combat any and all threats. perhaps the Earth caste after studying the warp and its nature are able to replicate the Necron Pylons that created the Cadian gate and effectively shut off most of the Eye of Terror. What about combing Imperial and Tau knowledge of Bio-weapons and directing this against the Tyranids, Optimism people.
The current fluff (ork dex) pretty much states that tau had to withdraw. I'm sure - they'll fight the territory back in the next war (tau dex) but as it is, they've lost for now.
No wonder that tau have problems with attrition wars - especially versus orkses. There's no diminishing qualities vs that. Orks do it all the time when major conflicts arise. They come somewhere en masse, take a chunk of territory, do the crumping, loose a lot but eventually the enemy gets exhausted and withdraws, they claim planets and loot. Than the enemy regroups or organises a reconquest and orks get beaten to come back later and the process starts anew.
The current fluff (ork dex) pretty much states that tau had to withdraw. I'm sure - they'll fight the territory back in the next war (tau dex) but as it is, they've lost for now.
AFAIK, the tau dex has the war of dakka over, with the tau victorious.
The current fluff (ork dex) pretty much states that tau had to withdraw. I'm sure - they'll fight the territory back in the next war (tau dex) but as it is, they've lost for now.
AFAIK, the tau dex has the war of dakka over, with the tau victorious.
And the 7-th ork one states the opposite. Fluffwars
While the 4-th ork one stated that orks didn't manage to get much sucksess in the war of dakka, the new one states they turned out to be fine. I'll reread it when get home. I might get wrong - long since i've read the new codex allready.
Tau tactics have been honed to fight Orks for centuries, their battle records are full of utterly crushing victories over the greenskins. Mainly because of what you mentioned: The Tau don't fight the way most Orks find entertaining. They fight with a view towards insuring that it is impossible to resist attacks, something that's incredibly easy to achieve against Orks if you have the mobility and technology to pull it off.
Once again, I must clarify. I am not saying the Orks *could* not destroy the Tau Empire, I am saying they *would* not for a myriad of factors. More entertaining enemies to fight, the necessity for a huge force, requirement for more solidarity between Orkish klans in order to gain said huge force (which in turn allows for easier exploitation of divisions via countermeasures), large forces of that size drawing the attention of the Imperium, Nids, etc.
Could a Waaagh exist that could destroy the Tau? Yes.
Is it likely to come to being soon? No.
Destroying the Tau Empire requires far more effort than it would be worth for almost all factions. Eldar are too dispersed to try it, the Imperium has far bigger fish to fry, Chaos isn't bothered with the morsels that are Tau souls, Orks hate fighting Tau because they rarely get to close with the enemy or even fire back if the enemy commander is good enough, and the Nids have plenty of poorly defended Imperial worlds to prey on closer to their real objective: Terra.
The only faction that has the absolute capability, possible motivation and lack of distracting threats elsewhere is the Necrons. However, the motivation is shaky because we don't know if the Tau hold any worlds that the Necrons actually care about, and as Co'tor pointed out, a good deal of the Necrons are on the other side of the galaxy. Other threats to the Necrons will also grow as time goes on.
Perpetual war in an stagnant human empire is the setting of Warhammer 40k. The Tau Empire sticking around, acting like the Soviet Union of Blue Sikhs in Space, fits the narrative as the "non-warp" avatar of change in the galaxy.
The current fluff (ork dex) pretty much states that tau had to withdraw. I'm sure - they'll fight the territory back in the next war (tau dex) but as it is, they've lost for now.
AFAIK, the tau dex has the war of dakka over, with the tau victorious.
And the 7-th ork one states the opposite. Fluffwars
While the 4-th ork one stated that orks didn't manage to get much sucksess in the war of dakka, the new one states they turned out to be fine. I'll reread it when get home. I might get wrong - long since i've read the new codex allready.
What date is it listed at? We know that the orks captured territory, it being a war and all, but the date may be listed while the war was still going on.
I guess we need to find someone else having read the new ork dex to tell for sure about the war of dakka. Or wait till i get home and refresh my memory Anywayz, my favorit wh40k quote comes from the 4-th dex describing Kaptin' Badrukk fighting in this war.
Just says the ork warboss gathered all the guns he could to counter his higher tech foes.
But yeah, the Tau didn't really win the war. They stopped the orks advance, but the orks gain a huge amount of territory and halted the Tau's spread westward. And they are still there. Badrukk had to withdraw due to injuries, but that doesn't mean the rest of the waaagh did.
wait till the emperor is fixed, then join up wit hthe tau. think about it, the empereor was killin off xenos because they all have their own agendas, now, he has a xenos with the same agenda as him.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Halting their westward expasion? That's weird because the last thing on the tau timeline is westward expansion.
Which resulted in conflict with what was already there. Might be south western. It has been slowed and halted in some ways by running into the orks, who they did not beat, they reached a stalemate which which is where they are.
Brennonjw wrote: wait till the emperor is fixed, then join up wit hthe tau. think about it, the empereor was killin off xenos because they all have their own agendas, now, he has a xenos with the same agenda as him.
The Emperor was killing pretty much all aliens regardless of their goals. He was exclusively concerned with and involved with humanity and the concerns surrounding it.
Brennonjw wrote: wait till the emperor is fixed, then join up wit hthe tau. think about it, the empereor was killin off xenos because they all have their own agendas, now, he has a xenos with the same agenda as him.
The Emperor's agenda for Mankind was that it was Humanity's manifest destiny to rule the stars unopposed. The presence of the Tau does not coincide with that agenda.
Brennonjw wrote: wait till the emperor is fixed, then join up wit hthe tau. think about it, the empereor was killin off xenos because they all have their own agendas, now, he has a xenos with the same agenda as him.
The Emperor's agenda for Mankind was that it was Humanity's manifest destiny to rule the stars unopposed. The presence of the Tau does not coincide with that agenda.
His agenda also involved stamping out religion, so much that his downfall started when he destroyed temples made to worship him.
The Tau would have humanity as second-place to the Tau, but free of the shackles of faith.
Given his choice of two enslaved humanities, I see him siding with the rational Tau over the current Imperium.
The War of Dakka (i.e. the Waagh led by the Ork Grog Ironteef) is canonically a Tau victory because in the Farsight Enclaves supplement it describes the campaign in more detail:
After being taken by surprise by Ork tactics, Farsight eventually counterattacks with new insights after meditating on each of the Enclave worlds, with each world thematically associated with one of the Tau caste elements. Finally Farsight's forces win and Farsight reportedly kills Grog Ironteef.
As his chillingly effective methods burned the Orks from the enclaves, O''Shovah's one concession to his own desire was the isolation of the Orks' leader, Grog Ironteef. He finally located the warchief in the eye of a firestorm, attacking his own followers in an attempt to restore order. It is said that Farsight bested the beast in single combat, though none were there to witness it. All that remains of Grog is a sparkling globe filled with ash, the names of each of the enclave''s worlds engraved upon its surface.
p. 28, Farsight Enclaves supplement
The POV of the narration is consistent throughout and is not from an in-universe source, but from an omniscient third-party narrator POV. Thus there is no particular reason to doubt the veracity of its account or that Grog Ironteef is indeed dead. While Orks as a race may still threaten the Tau and the Farsight Enclaves, that is different from the "War of Dakka" as Grog and his forces were defeated and wiped out.
Brennonjw wrote: wait till the emperor is fixed, then join up wit hthe tau. think about it, the empereor was killin off xenos because they all have their own agendas, now, he has a xenos with the same agenda as him.
The Emperor's agenda for Mankind was that it was Humanity's manifest destiny to rule the stars unopposed. The presence of the Tau does not coincide with that agenda.
His agenda also involved stamping out religion, so much that his downfall started when he destroyed temples made to worship him.
The Tau would have humanity as second-place to the Tau, but free of the shackles of faith.
Given his choice of two enslaved humanities, I see him siding with the rational Tau over the current Imperium.
Brennonjw wrote: wait till the emperor is fixed, then join up wit hthe tau. think about it, the empereor was killin off xenos because they all have their own agendas, now, he has a xenos with the same agenda as him.
The Emperor's agenda for Mankind was that it was Humanity's manifest destiny to rule the stars unopposed. The presence of the Tau does not coincide with that agenda.
His agenda also involved stamping out religion, so much that his downfall started when he destroyed temples made to worship him.
The Tau would have humanity as second-place to the Tau, but free of the shackles of faith.
Given his choice of two enslaved humanities, I see him siding with the rational Tau over the current Imperium.
For the way he's described I think he'd prefer to just wipe out himself and all humanity from existence (bringing as many enemies as he can with him) instead of submit to xenos of every possible kind.
Stamping out faith and religion was a mean (one among the others) to make humanity and humanity only to rule the galaxy, not certainly the main purpose.
Brennonjw wrote: wait till the emperor is fixed, then join up wit hthe tau. think about it, the empereor was killin off xenos because they all have their own agendas, now, he has a xenos with the same agenda as him.
The Emperor's agenda for Mankind was that it was Humanity's manifest destiny to rule the stars unopposed. The presence of the Tau does not coincide with that agenda.
His agenda also involved stamping out religion, so much that his downfall started when he destroyed temples made to worship him.
The Tau would have humanity as second-place to the Tau, but free of the shackles of faith.
Given his choice of two enslaved humanities, I see him siding with the rational Tau over the current Imperium.
... wait he's serious?
Judging from earlier threads regarding the Tau vs. the Imperium, he is.
If the Emperor were to return to the current Imperium, he would likely us the system in place to achieve his goals, then reduce or remove it after the fact.
Why there would ever be a need to set the Imperium second to an "Empire" that is .0000000001 % of the size of the Imperium is absolutely beyond me. Especially with the arrival of the Emperor. The Return of the Emperor would be a monumental shift in the balance of power.
PhillyT wrote: If the Emperor were to return to the current Imperium, he would likely us the system in place to achieve his goals, then reduce or remove it after the fact.
Why there would ever be a need to set the Imperium second to an "Empire" that is .0000000001 % of the size of the Imperium is absolutely beyond me. Especially with the arrival of the Emperor. The Return of the Emperor would be a monumental shift in the balance of power.
I'm sure the Tau would figure something out. I mean, they've got so good technology that even the fluff writers are afraid of them.
Brennonjw wrote: wait till the emperor is fixed, then join up wit hthe tau. think about it, the empereor was killin off xenos because they all have their own agendas, now, he has a xenos with the same agenda as him.
The Emperor's agenda for Mankind was that it was Humanity's manifest destiny to rule the stars unopposed. The presence of the Tau does not coincide with that agenda.
His agenda also involved stamping out religion, so much that his downfall started when he destroyed temples made to worship him.
The Tau would have humanity as second-place to the Tau, but free of the shackles of faith.
Given his choice of two enslaved humanities, I see him siding with the rational Tau over the current Imperium.
... wait he's serious?
Judging from earlier threads regarding the Tau vs. the Imperium, he is.
He's the same guy who said that the Tau handled the Tyranid threat more effectively than the Imperium ever has... Whilst failing to mention that they encountered a miniscule tendril which was fatally flawed, had to enlist the assistance of both the Imperium and the fething Dark Eldar, and still were backed into a corner and terrified that they might actually win.
Dark Eldar codex (not the most recent one - the fifth ed one). Tau were fighting on some verdant jungle world and getting the feth kicked out of them, Tyrands were about to over-run onto a really important planet. High Command got a message for Urien(sp) offering to assist them for a "culture exchange". Haemonculi (again sp - not going to grab the codex to spell this stuff correctly) and their armies of flesh creatures show up, thoroughly smash the tyranids with Tau fire-support. Tau give all of the 'culture exchange' demands other than giving the coven a few Ethereals - that they refuse. Urien gets pissed off that the Tau refused him and, with Vect, goes to feth over one of their planets. Every non-tau on the planet is killed, every Tau is taken back to the Dark City - dead or alive.
It's important to note that the Tau didn't realize exactly who / what was making the offer when Urien initially got into contact, nor did they understand what would happen to those who would be part of the "culture exchange". The point, however, is that the Tau were terrified out of their wits and losing - so they made a bargain with the freaking Dark Eldar.. and weren't -immediately- turned off by the horrifying nature of the haem's creations / armies.
Btw, i stand corrected for the War of Dakka. No idea what lead me to thinking that orks won, probably a few sentences about Badrukk in the new book:
During the War of Dakka, his warriors outshot a Tau Hunter cadre. Some even claim that the Kaptin personally brought down a Freeblade Knight armed with nought but a hair squig and several inebriated Snotlings, though it seems likely that such tales have grown in the telling.
It also states:
815.M41 The War of Dakka Warboss Grog Ironteef leads a mighty Waaagh! against the burgeoning Tau Empire, gathering up all the dakka he can to counter the firepower of his more advanced foes.
The 4th edition book didn't imply orks won either. It maintains that they took territory, which isn't countered by the Farsight fluff, nor is the Farsight fluff that reliable as a FINAL source given the exceptionally tilted (intentionally - propaganda) narration.
At any rate, to have a tau victory at great cost against a minor waagh isn't exactly a glowing exhibition of Tau supremacy.
Keep in mind size. a WAAAGH that is minor to the imperium can be huge to to the tau empire. It all has to do with proportion. The fact the the tau empire was able to beat an enimy of that scale says something. The tau empire are barely a footnote, but on equal sizings, they are one of the greatest powers.
I will repeat myself. The only way the tau empire can have a greater role in the galaxy is if a MAJOR calamity hits the imperium, allowing the TE to claim undefended planets on a vast scale, and then a long time to build their own army up to fit their territory.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Keep in mind size. a WAAAGH that is minor to the imperium can be huge to to the tau empire. It all has to do with proportion. .
This is kind of the point though, one which "some people" just don't seem to get. The Tau have never had a real threat show up to oppose them. They've survived a couple of minor Waaaaghs, a small Necron revival, an undermanned Imperial Crusade which was called off to go fight Nids, and a miniscule hive-fleet which was crippled due to its own hyper evolutionary tendencies. All of these have scared the living feth out of them, and several have required outside intervention for them to survive (Nids required the help of Dark Eldar and Imperium, the Imperium had to get distracted by a massive tyranid invasion and called off, Necrons weren't interested in taking ALL of the Tau empire, afaik they only wanted one world and the Tau still got help from the Imperium). Yet several posters talk about how the Tau handle threats so much better than the Imperium, that they could oppose the Imperium to a series degree, snuff out threats, and that they're so powerful that Empy himself would want to align himself with them.
Whilst somehow managing to ignore that Tau have been severely harmed, or even feared for the entire empire's existence, against small threats which the Imperium barely even has time to register - and can stop with relative ease.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Keep in mind size. a WAAAGH that is minor to the imperium can be huge to to the tau empire. It all has to do with proportion. .
This is kind of the point though, one which "some people" just don't seem to get. The Tau have never had a real threat show up to oppose them. They've survived a couple of minor Waaaaghs, a small Necron revival, an undermanned Imperial Crusade which was called off to go fight Nids, and a miniscule hive-fleet which was crippled due to its own hyper evolutionary tendencies. All of these have scared the living feth out of them, and several have required outside intervention for them to survive (Nids required the help of Dark Eldar and Imperium, the Imperium had to get distracted by a massive tyranid invasion and called off, Necrons weren't interested in taking ALL of the Tau empire, afaik they only wanted one world and the Tau still got help from the Imperium). Yet several posters talk about how the Tau handle threats so much better than the Imperium, that they could oppose the Imperium to a series degree, snuff out threats, and that they're so powerful that Empy himself would want to align himself with them.
Whilst somehow managing to ignore that Tau have been severely harmed, or even feared for the entire empire's existence, against small threats which the Imperium barely even has time to register - and can stop with relative ease.
Well the entire tau empire barley registers . They are the true underdogs of the galaxy.
Although I will say, the tau did have the advantage during the Damocles crusade. And the during the taros campaign the imperium's momentum kind of petered out. They did damage, but they were not big enough to have any hope of completely beating the tau empire. A crusade big enough to completely take out the tau empire would take recorces that are desperately needed elsewhere.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Keep in mind size. a WAAAGH that is minor to the imperium can be huge to to the tau empire. It all has to do with proportion. .
This is kind of the point though, one which "some people" just don't seem to get. The Tau have never had a real threat show up to oppose them. They've survived a couple of minor Waaaaghs, a small Necron revival, an undermanned Imperial Crusade which was called off to go fight Nids, and a miniscule hive-fleet which was crippled due to its own hyper evolutionary tendencies. All of these have scared the living feth out of them, and several have required outside intervention for them to survive (Nids required the help of Dark Eldar and Imperium, the Imperium had to get distracted by a massive tyranid invasion and called off, Necrons weren't interested in taking ALL of the Tau empire, afaik they only wanted one world and the Tau still got help from the Imperium). Yet several posters talk about how the Tau handle threats so much better than the Imperium, that they could oppose the Imperium to a series degree, snuff out threats, and that they're so powerful that Empy himself would want to align himself with them.
Whilst somehow managing to ignore that Tau have been severely harmed, or even feared for the entire empire's existence, against small threats which the Imperium barely even has time to register - and can stop with relative ease.
Well the entire tau empire barley registers . They are the true underdogs of the galaxy.
Although I will say, the tau did have the advantage during the Damocles crusade. And the during the taros campaign the imperium's momentum kind of petered out. They did damage, but they were not big enough to have any hope of completely beating the tau empire. A crusade big enough to completely take out the tau empire would take recorces that are desperately needed elsewhere.
The Damocles Crusade was not given the initial manpower it was promised, nor did it get ANY of the reinforcements that the crusaders were assured they would have.
Despite that, the Imperial forces came within a few miles - perhaps another couple of hours, from obliterating a MASSIVE chunk of Tau military power and bringing a vital Sept World to heel.
That's why talking about how capable the Tau are is silly in the extreme. They only survived an undermanned expedition which got none of the reinforcements it was promised and only a fraction of the initial forces it should have had, entirely because the Tyranids showed up and made it so that the Imperium had bigger fish to fry.
Doing anything in the Imperium requires resources that are desperately needed elsewhere, that's kind of the running theme in 40k. Despite that, should anyone ever decide to actually look at the Tau funny, their empire gets crushed and their race probably wiped out. The Imperium could do it without batting an eye, but the Tau learned not to poke that sleeping giant in the ass and therefor haven't garnered that kind of attention since then.
Except the Imperium will never be in a position where the Tau are the greater threat to be dealt with. At least, not anytime soon.
We can bang on about the obvious mathematics that the Tau would lose against the Imperium, but we can't ignore the other half of that: All the other powers are locked in constant struggle with each other as well, and turning to try to conquer the relatively small Tau Empire would cost too much for anyone to be bothered.
Is that plot armour? Probably. But then, you Imperial fanbhoys have plenty of that of your own, so welcome to 40k I guess.
Same really with humanity during the age of Terra before the psykers and warp technology. The Eldar could have wiped them out any time they wanted to.
That is kind of the point of the Tau in the setting, a reflection of mankind's past. With the other humanoid species we have a complete cycle of galactic civilization. Tau are in spring when the exploration and empire building starts, IoM in summer when the galaxy is conquered (although near the end), Eldar the decline in fall and Necrons the winter, when all is dust.
Why conquer the Tau Empire when the Imperium can use them, without having to actually be friends with the "filthy xenos"? They make a pretty swell buffer against Tyrannids and Orks in the area when push comes to shove.
Hilariously, it's mentioned in some places (Some of the third expansion fluff, for one thing, IIRC. Maybe. I forget exactly where) how the Imperium actually negotiates with the Tau for ceasefires sometimes (the one specifically mentioned was the one that ended the Damocles Crusade, IIRC) but it's always the Imperium that breaks the agreements (there was a "like usual" in there, IIRC). Also hilarious is that there's usually nothing the Tau can do about it when it does (in terms of demanding recompense and payback. They can of course defend themselves decently enough with the help of circumstances if it's an Imperium attack, as well as ninja planets from the Imperium if opportunity arises)
Co'tor Shas wrote: I will repeat myself. The only way the tau empire can have a greater role in the galaxy is if a MAJOR calamity hits the imperium, allowing the TE to claim undefended planets on a vast scale, and then a long time to build their own army up to fit their territory.
... like Abaddon tearing open the Eye of Terror, like he's getting ready to do with his 13th Black Crusade.
Co'tor Shas wrote: I will repeat myself. The only way the tau empire can have a greater role in the galaxy is if a MAJOR calamity hits the imperium, allowing the TE to claim undefended planets on a vast scale, and then a long time to build their own army up to fit their territory.
... like Abaddon tearing open the Eye of Terror, like he's getting ready to do with his 13th Black Crusade.
Which would be a pretty cool timeline if GW advanced at all.
Not necessarily. If the Astronomican is stopped, that would send the imperium into chaos without resulting in a total breakup. Those planets or systems who already want to leave could leave for the most part, but most would stay loyal. Transport and communication would be massively disrupted, allowing all the other forces to swoop in and catch un-defended, and un-aware worlds completely by surprise. The majority of the imperium's forces that remained intact would converge on terra, leaving most worlds ripe for the picking.
Right, but the 13th crusade breaking out isn't itself enough to fragment the entire Imperium, particularly since it is on the opposite side of the galaxy from the Tau.
HE would need to be completely successful, which would signal the end for the Tau as well since it would likely mean a fusion between the real world and chaos!
But yes, the 13th Crusade is one of those potential universe enders for sure.
I wonder, it there any way that the astronomican can be disrupted without taking terra? If it could, that would severely cripple the imp, so chaos would be very interested in ding that.
13th Black Crusade won't make a difference to the Tau.
The resources being drawn to deal with it are not being drawn from eastern sectors of Ultima Segmentum. Potential warp effects would be a problem, but less so out on the Eastern Fringe, I would imagine.
Also, it doesn't succeed in anything like the terms you're talking about. Again, I must refer you to the Commissar Cain novels. Written in-universe in M42 and published later in that millenium, no reference to the Imperium falling on its arse (and no mention of a diminished Tau threat either). I'm sure damage was done, but the Imperium still faces huge threats but is not losing decisively.
Besides, Chaos couldn't get too far for the same reason the Tau can't, other powers would be drawn to it. Necron intervention would be increasingly likely on a grander scale, and the Eldar probably already are throwing all they have at the problem. Nids looking to nom Terra would probably start getting in the way as well, given Leviathan's approach angle.
Caiphas Cain novels aren't canon past the 13th crusade anymore sadly...
And dude, you can't say the Tau would be just passed by, by EVERYONE, its such a cop-out answer. You don't even know if the Tyranids are going for Terra.
The Cain novels aren't canon prior to the 13th BC, either. There isn't a canon... and the Cain novels are almost certainly an in-universe propaganda tool.
Psienesis wrote: The Cain novels aren't canon prior to the 13th BC, either. There isn't a canon... and the Cain novels are almost certainly an in-universe propaganda tool.
well I would say it would move slowly but eventualy the tau would get a empire big enough to rival the imperium
They need to eliminate the smaller threats like the eldar (I mean lets face it they're going down) no offence to eldar players.
The Tau will be Ended long before they get an empire of a size large enough to actually threaten the Imperium. Seriously. It's like Rhode Island trying to take on the US military. Even if Rhode Island manages to take its 5 neighboring states, once the US decides to end that threat, that threat gets ended.
Psienesis wrote: The Tau will be Ended long before they get an empire of a size large enough to actually threaten the Imperium. Seriously. It's like Rhode Island trying to take on the US military. Even if Rhode Island manages to take its 5 neighboring states, once the US decides to end that threat, that threat gets ended.
Spoiler:
The Tau are the "young, rising stars" of 40k. No point adding them if they're gonna be eliminated so easily.
Psienesis wrote: The Tau will be Ended long before they get an empire of a size large enough to actually threaten the Imperium. Seriously. It's like Rhode Island trying to take on the US military. Even if Rhode Island manages to take its 5 neighboring states, once the US decides to end that threat, that threat gets ended.
Spoiler:
The Tau are the "young, rising stars" of 40k. No point adding them if they're gonna be eliminated so easily.
The Squats would like to have a word.
Remember, though, that the setting doesn't go anywhere. 40K fluff is not a story, it's simply details to a setting. So the Tau Empire will *always* be the "young, rising stars". We will never see them as a truly galactic power. The Tyranids will never devour the entire galaxy, all of the Tomb Worlds will never awaken, the Black Crusades will never be able to actually topple Terra... that's not what the game is about. The GrimDark is the setting. It's intended to capture that "fifteen-minutes-to-midnight" vibe, where the Imperium is beset on all sides by enemies, and all they can do is fight to delay the inevitable for just one more day.
But this is not a situation that will ever resolve itself. The fluff has not significantly advanced since, like, 2nd or 3rd edition... and what advancement we saw then was mostly establishing the vibe of what 40K is now. Every time there is a Black Crusade, we get to read about titanic battles and sweeping victories and crushing defeats, planets we've never before heard of fall to Chaos, or are destroyed by the Imperium (or the Tyranids), and all this sort of thing... but nothing ever actually changes in the setting. They don't remove units from Codices because the Forge World that made them no longer exists. They don't delete Space Marine Chapters because their homeworld got eaten. They don't give CSM access to modern Imperial wargear because they captured a Forge World. That's just not how the game works, as is GW's intent.
... wait he's serious?
