Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.
Personally, I've never stepped into an official GW Store, It's not intentional, there has never been one within a reasonable drive. I don't think there has ever been one in my home state for that matter. (Just googled it, it's a 3 hour and 30 mintue drive to the nearest store in Greenwich Village, New York) I learned about 40K in a local comic book shop, and started playing in another comic book shop. As a consequence I imagine, I don't see GW Shops as an important part of the hobby. I routinely see the opposite belief held, even if it is not intentional.
When GW cuts back gaming space, staff, stock, etc.. in a GW shop,someone will post about it, with the belief it is iindicative of the health of the hobby, and GW, as a whole.
Closing a GW store is met with echoes of doom and gloom. When there were copies of Space Hulk left on the shelf, Space Hulk was decried a failure because there were copies still on the shelf at the GW store.
To be honest, I guess I can kind of see where the belief comes from, but I just don't buy it.
I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.
There was one in Holyoke MA and Boston right in Harvard Square in Cambridge. There used to be one in Manchester CT...at one point I had 2 stores within a 20 minute drive.
*edit* I should probably read the OP the whole way through next time.
In Australia and America GW stores are meaningless, the belief of any value they provide is almost entirely down to the UK demographic where there is a GW in every small town.
It also comes down to the general perception of them 5 years ago rather than what they are now.
They used to all have 3 or 4 employees, 6 or so tables, open every day with good hours, encourage in store gaming and be in high foot traffic locations. Then the one man stores happened.
More of this perception of them comes from GWHQ themselves, they have repeatedly stated that their hobby centers are their best source of advertising and is instrumental in their continued success. Somehow they don't see the move out of high traffic areas, halving of square footage and slashing of employees and store hours to hurt this plan at all.
The thing is... GW does do some amazing things for the hobby. LoTR and The Hobbit are renowned for their tight and well written ruleset. Too bad no one plays them in my area.
What sets GW and warhammer apart from any other game is the sheer amount of fluff out there. There really is a palpable sense of a vast endless universe to anyone inside the 40k hobby. Just check Black Library. You can argue X-wing for Star Wars and their amazing extended universe, but I ask.. Does Fantasy Flight Games produce and manage all of that fluff and canon?
Pyeatt wrote: The thing is... GW does do some amazing things for the hobby.
Not arguing that. I'm actually a huge fan of most of GW's games. I just think people read too much importance into the value of the official GW Stores.
To be honest, OP, I really don't understand the point of your post, unless you're griping because there's none close to you. Are you complaining because a store owned and funded by GW only wants GW in their store? Let me know what happens if Privateer Press mans up and makes their own store franchise. Pretty sure it's going to be PP games everywhere inside. MAYBE a small token outside source game.
I'm actually not griping about GW at all. I'm trying to illustrate that people who play in them tend to put an overabundance on the value and importance of actual GW stores on their role in the hobby.
adamsouza wrote: I just think people read too much importance into the value of the official GW Stores.
OOOOOHHhhhhh I feel like a goober. I got you now. My nearest GW store is 1.2 hours away. So I only go there for things my FLGS doesnt have. There's another thread floating around about annoyances with FLGS. Guess what the ABSOLUTE MOST POPULAR is. Special order models, either not coming, coming late, not being told about it, or something similar.
At a GW store, they have almost everything for 40k and fantasy. And if you absolutely have to order something, they're almost always on the money about notifying you and so forth. Very different environment than an FLGS.
Pyeatt wrote: if Privateer Press mans up and makes their own store franchise
I highly doubt that will ever happen. PP have the good sense to simply work with FLGS to expand their product, where as GW are sinking about half of there revenue (maybe more now that it's dropping so fast) into keeping open a ton of stores that simply aren't working anymore.
When you're playing a game, you want casual. When you're trying to spend money, you want professional. And they're heavily encouraging "professional salesmen". That's the importance I place in them.
Pyeatt wrote: if Privateer Press mans up and makes their own store franchise
I highly doubt that will ever happen. PP have the good sense to simply work with FLGS to expand their product, where as GW are sinking about half of there revenue (maybe more now that it's dropping so fast) into keeping open a ton of stores that simply aren't working anymore.
My point is... It's their store. They own it. If another game brand bought their own store, you'd better believe it's at least 95% going to be stocked with their stuff.
I used to have a local GW when I lived in a much more populated area near Toronto. I don't think I went to it more than once a year though. Gaming seemed to be about being in people's houses and events at local convention type things.
My assessment about GW having some troubles doesn't have anything to do with their GW stores near me, but their decline in revenue in their financial reports. Which I happen to think is weather-able.
And more will be coming as when they convert more and more of their stores to single employee operations. The thing is, so what if their revenue for a retail store drops (say 40%) if their costs to run the store are more than halved by the transition? It just means they need to keep opening them and trying to find the right combination of employee and location. If they can open more stores that each operate at a better margin than the previous multi-employee model, then they can keep more of their money.
I have seen GW retail in Canada really take a hit though. Especially among independent stores that have other options. It's very hard to compete with American online discounters that can get the product to people's door for very close to what a local retailer would have to pay at trade discount.
Just think about that prospect from an independent store owner's perspective. Would you stock a product that your customers can get for your own wholesale price, shipped right to their door? All the while every dollar that goes to GW is one less dollar that you can use to negotiate better volume discounts with your distributors for the real money maker of your store: card games.
I think GW will continue to have flat revenue with higher prices and declining units sold while the rest of the market grows around them, diminishing their market share over time. Those who want to keep enjoying GW's products will still be able to do so (with every new release pushing the price up further and further) without some catastrophic demise of GW.
Just a slow decline into irrelevancy and segmentation from the larger hobby market. No doom. No big explosion. With a majority of customers buying direct at a higher price to ensure they can get what they want as your local store might get volume limited on popular products and can't get you the whole line anyway.
Stores are described as entry points for the GW hobby - and their only means of promotion. Moving them to areas where there is less footfall and denying the ability of their customers (who recruit for GW) to play games and paint and assemble miniatures in this 'hobby' space.
So, less potential customers able to see the brand and then less potential customers can see the hobby in action. You see where this goes.
There is also 'Direct Only' Core product is not available to FLGS and is only orderable via website or in store for delivery. Another negative.
Its not vitriol being spewed here. GW believe this is great news for their investors - at a time when revenues are down.
Yeah. I see a continual decline in revenues ahead. They still haven't even transitioned all their stores to single employee operations yet, so more staff cuts to come!
Margins will be protected at all costs. Dividends must be paid or GW offers investors literally nothing. No growth story. No dividends. Just failure.
Last time I went in a GW store was quite some years ago. I wanted something that had just been released but was told they didn't stock it because it was 'direct only' and despite me going direct to their own shop I was told I could order it in store and and collect it mid week or the following weekend. But I just didn't travel into the city that often, I used to go every few weeks or once a month. And buying online and paying postage on top just to get a single blister really wasn't worth it.
Waste of time. You don't even get rewarded going to their to their own corporate stores in city locations because they don't carry most of their own stock. It's not like it was in the 90s when you would walk in and the place was wall to wall with books, boxes and blisters. Now they are apparently downsizing so you can't even play games in their shops, not that I ever did myself, the small tables are only there for demo games to sell to new customers. I'm not sure what a GW store is for, their staff must really feel the pressure trying to meet store targets.
I've been in harrogates GW and Maidstones and found the managers of both to be enthusiastic hobbyists aswell as salesmen (they're one man stores). Both have run leagues or campaigns in the store, open late on certain nights for gaming and do their best to arrange games for their customers who are new to the area. Yes there is less gaming space than in the days of yore but they both stand out as great places to game for me. I literally went into the store for the first time with my army a few weeks back (mostly forgeworld, very little purchased in that store) and the manager helped me find a local gamer to play against, encouraged me to book in more games and informed me of the 40K ladder league coming up, and at not point was I pushed to purchase anything whilst in the store,.
adamsouza wrote: Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking.
GW, as a whole and especially with their own stores, thinks they can succeed by doing business somewhat like Apple in that GW has created a complete ecosystem for gaming. You can now buy every single thing you need to game from GW and only GW. From the game, to hobby tools, to paints, to terrain, to even the table surface, you can get all that from GW without having to go anywhere else. It creates an echo chamber, in that, while you're in a GW store, you see only GW, even down to the carrying case your models are in. It's like no other brands exist, no other products exist. You're in a box with no windows to the outside world of wargaming. And that's exactly what GW wants.
I went into my local GW a few weeks back (the very same one that got me hooked in 97) because I wanted a Death Jester. Since they have been converted to finecast I wanted to have the opportunity to check the QC over before purchase. Sadly the store doesn't stock a lot of their own products. The employee offered to place an order for me on the pos and have it shipped to store so I wouldn't have to pay shipping. The problem is I wanted to check the item BEFORE purchase so I walked out empty handed.
What good is a corporate store that only sells their own products yet fail to stock so much of them on their shelves? The FLGS I shop at is just up the road a bit and they stock the exact same things that the corporate store does but offer a discount system, has other companies paint, tools ect and tons of gaming space. Why would I ever go to the GW store?
The one advantage that can get me into a GW store is completely lost as they themselves don't stock half of their own range. I need at least 5 of these models but I don't want to go through the process of waiting for them to come in and having to deal with waiting for the exchanges to come in if there is a problem. All I want to do is walk in, check the blisters and buy the good ones and walk out. Why is that so hard?
I too miss the days of the late 90's early 2000's when the store was jam packed full of cool stuff. They used to keep blisters under the gaming tables as well so you could ask them for stuff you didn't see.
It is so frustrating to read these sorts of posts, because it is so easy to fix!
GWS have it right that centralising your stockholding can bring huge efficiencies, it avoids the scenario whereby you have 300 stores all with an item in stock, but a customer walks into store 301 and walks out empty handed, or where store 301 orders one, which in GW's case may be manufactured but would usually be ordered in, despite there already being 300 available for sale. In actual fact, in the case of slower moving items, you could probably service demand for any given SKU with far fewer units on hand, say 50 units to cover 500 stores.
The problem with GW specifically is a) as mentioned, they need a reason for customers to go into their stores - the whole range, or a substantially higher percentage than found in indys, could easily be it and b) hobbyists are, IME, often sufferers of shiny syndrome and i want it now disease, and, certain exclusives aside, why wait for a full RRP order when an online company will discount? Sure, timescales could be argued, but the store delivery option is a once a week deal IIRC, so even a modest value order would likely be outperformed by their own website assuming you hit the free shipping threshold.
There is a c) in terms of Finecast quality, but this is an anomaly really, and never should have been an issue.
GW had it right, and have systematically spoiled it, and that to me as a hobbyist in possession of at least a semi-competent business brain, is hugely frustrating.
I think it is a good point you make, at least as it reflects that the value of the GW store has been decreasing as the store quality itself has been decreasing.
When I was getting back into 40k the last time, the fact that there was a "Chicago" (not in chicago) battle bunker 45 minutes away was pretty cool and definitely a major asset for me as a GW hobbyist. I would stop their occasionally and paint or game. I didn't go too often, but it was nice to know that if I couldn't get a game in locally, it was there. Since then, the Bunker has closed (as has the nearest GW in Oak Park) and stores don't really seem to be mecca's for actual gaming anymore.
In short, in my limited experience, there seems to be less and less reason for even the GW fan to hang-out at a GW store and because of this, they do indeed have less value.
I prefer your standard FLGS. variety is the spice of life
The stores aren't necessary infinity,privateer press and flames of war have managed to make and expand their popular set's without the need of a centric hobby store at all.
The whole no advertising thing is both silly and also defunct what got me into the hobby was the battle games in middle earth magazine series and also LOTR
that was a hell of alot of advertisement for GW
the much more responsible approach would be to work with gaming stores and even some toy stores as well to push and promote your product.
The GW store here is awful for gaming since it has like only two tables, and there's...like 4 FLGS stores here, each with many more tables.
I don't buy GW new, I feel one can find better stuff second hand (and oop stuff, which I like generally more).
I have been in this hobby for 25 years. I play at my local GW store because it is the closest to me, the manager is friendly and the customers/players are nice. It is a larger store with 3 tables so we can play games. The manager is an awful salesperson and never pesters me to buy something. (which I assume he will be fired one day)
The other hobby store I could go to is twice as far away, the staff ignore me and the player base is very cliqueish.
So I play at the GW store 9/10 times because it suits me. Not because of some indoctrination. People will play based on what works best for them in their area.
When I lived in Raleigh NC the store was too small to play games although the manager was always nice. I had my choice of multiple gaming stores and I played at the one with the nicest staff and nicest customer base - which is how I always choose where I play.
We: Did you start your wargaming life at a GW or an Indy? I suspect that may be more pertinent than where you choose to play now ie. those who start in a GW tend towards a much narrower view, those who have experience with the wider wargaming hobby and indy retailers may still choose to use a GW for reasons such as you outline, but it will be more of an informed choice.
OP, you're not the only person asking this. A GW store closing is a good thing for the hobby because it opens up more room in the market for a far superior independent store to take its place. Instead of being sad about it closing we should celebrate the removal of such an unproductive leech from the community, and look forward to what might replace it.
I like GW stores. They offer a place to play, which is valuable to me. Over the years it's become increasingly harder to organise specific game times with friends, so if it weren't for the store I probably wouldn't be playing games at all. Of all the wargames I've started over the years, most of them I've quit because of lack of people to play against.
While the local GW is a shadow of what it used to be, if it closed it would be a damned shame for me, I would have to find a new place to play.
It has nothing to do with indoctrination, it's the simple fact of the matter. I've been playing for close to 20 years now and have dabbled in other games over those years. I didn't even start in a GW store, I started in an FLGS and playing with mates and then moved on to a GW store later.
They offer a place to play, which is valuable to me.
The stores near me have phased out their gaming tables. I wasn't aware that any GW still allowed people to play in their stores, other than for demo games.
Meanwhile the nearest FLGS (which is still half an hour away from me) has a ton of tables, ton of terrain, and an instore espresso stand.
****Disclaimer - This is for the US only. I assume GW in the UK works similarly but only know 100% for sure this is the US Policy****
GW Stores are for recruiting this has been the case since at least 2001. The only stores based around regular gamers were the Battle Bunkers. First they get new hobbyists into warhammer or 40k and then the purpose is then to shift the newly recruited people out to FLGS's. It's up to the FLGS and the GW employee though to make this relationship work.
FLGS that have clean stores, solid customer service, and run events/have active people playing GW games in their stores then get the new blood and are supposed to grow the new blood in gaming.
The problems are
1) most store managers even don't get this no matter how it's drilled in. They see it as losing sales and try to hold onto every single person. Part of this problem is the bonus pay scale and financial targets.
2) People don't tend to understand this (see point one but add in point 3)
3) FLGS mostly get butthurt about a GW store in their area and don't work to grow the 40k/fantasy gamers.
A good FLGS is going to have a ton more going for it than a GW store is. That's a given. But they are normally worse at getting people into 40k/Fantasy/Wargaming for a variety of reasons.
People need to stop expecting a GW store to be a FLGS.
People need to stop expecting a GW store to be a FLGS.
Personally, I think that's a suicidal path for GW to take. There's no reason a GW store can't compete with the FLGS for service if GW wanted to. If anything it should be easier for them, as their proffit margins on any moved product are going to be higher. Bad management is the reason the GW stores are failing, not bad concept. They've focused on individual sales, rather than creating a self sustaining eco system. Metaphorically, their red shirts these days are hunters, rather than farmers. Properly managed, a FLGS creates a self sustaining environment that will grow the player base and provide a steady source of purchases via increased player population and retention of veterans. As far as I can tell, GW stores these days just try to ambush whoever comes in and harvest them for all their worth before abandoning them.
Having starting playing in a Hobby shop, I still had a fairly close-minded approach to Warhammer.
ALL MODELS and parts, at that time, I required to be GW. Even though other stuff is allowed in store, it wasn't until GW got rid of their sponsored tournaments in the US that I thought "screw it", and started building my armies from other cheaper miniature lines.
GW events I attended were why I built from GW product only. Since they pulled the plug on those, it opened a floodgate of amazing minis from other companies.
Hulksmash wrote: ****Disclaimer - This is for the US only. I assume GW in the UK works similarly but only know 100% for sure this is the US Policy****
GW Stores are for recruiting this has been the case since at least 2001. The only stores based around regular gamers were the Battle Bunkers. First they get new hobbyists into warhammer or 40k and then the purpose is then to shift the newly recruited people out to FLGS's. It's up to the FLGS and the GW employee though to make this relationship work.
I think that is a doomed plan from the start. What incentive does the FLGS have to take on the maintenance of the new customer? The GW store has likely already sold him his rule books and pulled out all of his initial investment of models, then passes him off to the FLGS to game at. The FLGS now has to eat the overhead costs associated with this player without any associated sales from him/her. The FLGS has to hope that the new player stays within the game -and- wants to expand the army -and- wants to expand it from the limited availablity of models can sell. Hopefully its a third tactical squad and not a couple Direct Only special characters.
Hulksmash wrote: ****Disclaimer - This is for the US only. I assume GW in the UK works similarly but only know 100% for sure this is the US Policy****
GW Stores are for recruiting this has been the case since at least 2001. The only stores based around regular gamers were the Battle Bunkers. First they get new hobbyists into warhammer or 40k and then the purpose is then to shift the newly recruited people out to FLGS's. It's up to the FLGS and the GW employee though to make this relationship work.
I think that is a doomed plan from the start. What incentive does the FLGS have to take on the maintenance of the new customer? The GW store has likely already sold him his rule books and pulled out all of his initial investment of models, then passes him off to the FLGS to game at. The FLGS now has to eat the overhead costs associated with this player without any associated sales from him/her. The FLGS has to hope that the new player stays within the game -and- wants to expand the army -and- wants to expand it from the limited availablity of models can sell. Hopefully its a third tactical squad and not a couple Direct Only special characters.
You not understanding the business model doesn't make it doomed. I'll try to make an example though I'm sure it'll be flawed
-Ten 12 year old boys convince their parents to buy them starters and equipment for 40k in 2 weeks in September (early enough that the parents don't say wait till christmas) -Six of those boys never come back, they either open it at home or forget it or what have you. These are sales that a FLGS is unlikely to get period. They just don't generally have staff that sell excitement like a GW employee is supposed to. -Three of those boys comes back in a few times, picks up some stuff, maybe play a few mega-battles, and get stuff for christmas. After that they're never seen again. An FLGS misses out on most of these types of customers too for the same reason as the above. -One kid come back after christmas. Wanting to play games, paint, and really gets into the hobby for 2-3 years before he discovers girls. This is the kid that most GW's shift to an FLGS. He's got a 50/50 shot a being a lifer for wargaming.
So the FLGS misses out on mass sales (which they don't really do anyway) and gets a likely dedicated hobbiest for several years, if not life. This kid will spend a fair bit of money over the years and treated correctly will never look inside a GW again while he's playing. He'll also likely branch out into other games that the store carries or runs events for. All for zero investment in time and location finding this kid and getting him into the hobby.
That's how FLGS are supposed to profit off of GW. With a good GW/FLGS arrangement this results in lots of new players/buyers at the FLGS over the course of the year. And if they do it right they use the newly excited and recruited hobbyist to bring in his friends.
GW Recruits hobbyists. FLGS sustain, nurture, and grow them. It's a system that works extremely well if done correctly. Game stores get new blood and dedicated gamers that'll spend money over time on various games and gaming materials and GW makes 55% of the sales those FLGS make on GW product without having to pay the additional overhead for larger spaces and more employees.
It's not a VS. relationship. It's meant to be a partnership. That said GW managers worried about bottom lines are as much to blame for it not working that way as scared/poor FLGS owners. And oddly FLGS generally can have a better stock of GW products than stores can. Simply because they can keep special order items on the floor if they feel they'll sell where as GW store managers have zero control over their inventories anymore.
The relationship described above used to sort of work around where I live; there's only one GW in the province (please note, British Columbia is the size of the UK with 7 million people, though more than half in a big, unkempt urban sprawl near the US border), but there used to be three of them; one in the downtown core, and one each in the biggest subsidiary "cities" directly across the two rivers which separate the downtown core form the rest of the population. None of them were especially large, property being what it is here, but they each had a good staff to customer ratio and some gaming space.
What they were good for was, however, linking customers up with FLGS in more convenient locations for them they might not know about. People would go to a GW store for a variety of reasons; curiosity in the product, new to the area but already invested and looking for games, new players, etc. The stores would make some money off them, but never be afraid to recommend store X in location Y if the customer mentions it's a long or difficult trip for them to these stores, and the store employees would often go to those stores themselves, not in an official capacity, but as part of the larger community for tournaments, events and so on. All the FLGS owners knew one another, and the GW employees as well, and were actually quite organized in minimizing overlap and maximizing their business efficiency through a number of means, such as co-ordinated events, when moving locations they'd ensure they wouldn't overlap catchment areas and so on.
Fast forwards to today, one of the GW employees had his schedule re-arranged by his manager to prevent him from going to one of the FLGS events, and GW constantly shorts the individual stores on products, messes up orders, delays products and the lone, little GW store in a hard-to-reach immigrant community fundamentally denies any other venues for The Hobby exist.
And for some reason, the local community isn't growing.
Pyeatt wrote: if Privateer Press mans up and makes their own store franchise
I highly doubt that will ever happen. PP have the good sense to simply work with FLGS to expand their product, where as GW are sinking about half of there revenue (maybe more now that it's dropping so fast) into keeping open a ton of stores that simply aren't working anymore.
PP remembers a fact that GW has long forgotten. They are a game (and mini) PRODUCER, not a game (and mini) RETAILER.
GW wants to be the Coporate Wet Dream Version of Marvel. They want to branch their IP out into different markets, while somehow maintaining a strangle hold on it and the profits made from it.
adamsouza wrote: Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.
Personally, I've never stepped into an official GW Store, It's not intentional, there has never been one within a reasonable drive. I don't think there has ever been one in my home state for that matter. (Just googled it, it's a 3 hour and 30 mintue drive to the nearest store in Greenwich Village, New York) I learned about 40K in a local comic book shop, and started playing in another comic book shop. As a consequence I imagine, I don't see GW Shops as an important part of the hobby. I routinely see the opposite belief held, even if it is not intentional.
When GW cuts back gaming space, staff, stock, etc.. in a GW shop,someone will post about it, with the belief it is iindicative of the health of the hobby, and GW, as a whole.
Closing a GW store is met with echoes of doom and gloom. When there were copies of Space Hulk left on the shelf, Space Hulk was decried a failure because there were copies still on the shelf at the GW store.
To be honest, I guess I can kind of see where the belief comes from, but I just don't buy it.
I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.
You see, you don't understand the point in all this, this is what I have been told, and goes like this.
GW is in the process of restructuring its regime and has been for the 10 or so years, eventually in 5 to 10 year GW will kill off its tabletop gaming side and be solely a Hobby only operations.
To make a point, within 10 years there will be only two types of stores Kiosk and Shop Front these are very small stores with no gaming at all.
Bunker and Hobby stores will be closed, not to mention that any Independent Stockist will only carry the two rulebooks (Warhammer and 40K) and the starter sets, all other purchases will be done through GW's online store.
Also regards to this, GW is expected to stop the free pick-up, all purchase via online store will be sent to postal addresses only, this is where the income will come from the charging of postage. GW is expected to earn millions of pounds in postal charges alone.
I'll give you an example, 7 years ago I was the odd one out, a pure collector, not interested in the gaming side, however 7 years later I am GW's main focus, the pure collector.
Achaylus72 wrote: GW is in the process of restructuring its regime and has been for the 10 or so years, eventually in 5 to 10 year GW will kill off its tabletop gaming side and be solely a Hobby only operations.
This would be committing suicide as a profitable business. GW needs the existence of the game to convince people to buy the models, without seeing it on display/hearing the stories of awesome games/etc they aren't going to get very many new customers and their sales would be almost entirely limited to the last few current players finishing their collections. This would only make sense as a business move if you assume that GW's management have been infiltrated by employees of WOTC and they are deliberately trying to crash GW's stock price so that WOTC can buy the IP as cheaply as possible.
Bunker and Hobby stores will be closed, not to mention that any Independent Stockist will only carry the two rulebooks (Warhammer and 40K) and the starter sets, all other purchases will be done through GW's online store.
This would also be suicide as a profitable business, at least outside of the UK. GW depends on getting sales through independent stores, limit those stores to selling a few starter sets and most of them will just drop GW's products entirely*. And now all the people coming into those stores to play MTG/RPGs/comics/etc will have GW's competition as their first introduction to tabletop wargaming, meaning that GW will have very few replacement customers and no hope of long-term survival.
*Remember, in the US (and probably elsewhere) tabletop wargaming as a whole is small compared to MTG/RPGs/board games/comics/etc. Most independent stores are staying in business because of non-GW products, making some extra profit off GW stuff is just a nice bonus. If GW destroys the profitability of selling their products then the independent store loses almost nothing buy dumping them and giving the shelf space to some other game.
Also regards to this, GW is expected to stop the free pick-up, all purchase via online store will be sent to postal addresses only, this is where the income will come from the charging of postage. GW is expected to earn millions of pounds in postal charges alone.
This makes no sense at all, unless you assume that GW is going to massively overcharge for shipping as a hidden cost instead of just raising prices AND get enough gullible customers to think that it really costs that much to ship something. The much more likely outcome of trying something that stupid would be that people buy less stuff from GW, and those losses more than offset any gains from overcharging for shipping.
Also, you seem to ignore the fact that in-store pickup is a great marketing tool for GW. You're more likely to buy stuff when you get free shipping and, unlike most free shipping, GW can just throw your order into the box of stuff they're already delivering to each store instead of having to ship a separate package to you. And then once you're in the store to pick up your order GW gets a chance to sell you even more stuff. Throwing this sales opportunity away makes absolutely no sense.
You see, you don't understand the point in all this, this is what I have been told, and goes like this.....
That is the future, get used to it.
I would have been happy to ignore you, but the irony that your entire long responce was both condescending, and completely failed to miss the point, made it irresistable.
Everything you stated is irrelevant to my post. I think GW shops are completely overvalued by members of our community, and mostly irrelevant to survival of this hobby.
You see, you don't understand the point in all this, this is what I have been told, and goes like this.....
That is the future, get used to it.
I would have been happy to ignore you, but the irony that your entire long responce was both condescending, and completely failed to miss the point, made it irresistable.
Everything you stated is irrelevant to my post. I think GW shops are completely overvalued by members of our community, and mostly irrelevant to survival of this hobby.
I think the problem, though, is that he's right. Not that that sort of person can sustain the gw business model, but that certainly seems to be what they're aiming for.
I'll give you an example, 7 years ago I was the odd one out, a pure collector, not interested in the gaming side, however 7 years later I am GW's main focus, the pure collector.
That is the future, get used to it.
It's not us that has to get used to it, it's GW. When their business fails because their way of doing things sucks, they'll wonder why targeting the smallest minority and alienating everyone else didn't work.
It's not us that has to get used to it, it's GW. When their business fails because their way of doing things sucks, they'll wonder why targeting the smallest minority and alienating everyone else didn't work.
You just need to close your eyes and repeat "jewel like objects of magic and wonder" over and over until your negative thoughts just fade away.
frozenwastes wrote: You just need to close your eyes and repeat "jewel like objects of magic and wonder" over and over until your negative thoughts just fade away.
Don't click your heels at the same time though, or you might end up in kansas.
Pyeatt wrote: if Privateer Press mans up and makes their own store franchise
I highly doubt that will ever happen. PP have the good sense to simply work with FLGS to expand their product, where as GW are sinking about half of there revenue (maybe more now that it's dropping so fast) into keeping open a ton of stores that simply aren't working anymore.
PP remembers a fact that GW has long forgotten. They are a game (and mini) PRODUCER, not a game (and mini) RETAILER.
Much like the movie Pearl Harbor, you guys just keep missing the point. My point is, of course GW only wants their products in their store. If any other game company made a store, they would do the same if not very very similar.
adamsouza wrote: I'm actually not griping about GW at all. I'm trying to illustrate that people who play in them tend to put an overabundance on the value and importance of actual GW stores on their role in the hobby.
If you play in the stores... their value is that they give you a place to play... sooo... that's their value.
If the store closes and you were one of the people who played in the store, yeah, it would be kind of annoying because you'd have to find a new place to play.
I'm sure their importance varies greatly depending on location, but as a location where people can gather and game, it's useful. More useful (in that purpose) than my FLGS where it's all MtG and Warmahordes players.
If the store doesn't let you play there, then that store is not important. I'm not sure what else needs to be said
I'm pretty lucky with the area I'm in, as I'm practically tripping over both FLGS and GW stores, more than I've put the effort into going to. I'm probably counting my area as probably bigger than most people, but generally within an hour of public transport, I have 4 GWs and 3 FLGS that I know of.
I generally feel more welcome in the GWs than in the FLGS, and it's usually because I get along better with other hobbyists/customers, even the ones I've just met. Staff are pretty good everywhere, which is pretty surprising. In any case, I just go where I feel like I'm not wasting people's time.
I have mixed feelings regarding the value (and purpose) of GW stores to both GW and their customers.
On the positive side, GW stores allow GW to place their products directly into in the public eye, one of the few, true marketing tools available to them other than their website and WD. While I do agree that the primary focus of GW stores is retail sales and the recruitment of new players, I also believe that GW’s secondary focus is building and sustaining a dedicated player base in their stores. More about this later.
GW stores also provide the opportunity for new and veteran players alike to see most (if not all) of their product line first hand in one convenient location. The FLGS in my area can’t even begin to compete in terms of variety, availability and volume. GW stores also provide the ability to order nearly everything in their product range and have it shipped free of charge to their store for pickup within a week of placing the order. An FLGS would have to be on top of their ordering game to compete with GW in this regard.
It’s been stated that the GW store/FLGS relationship should be a mutually supportive relationship where the GW store introduces the new player to the hobby and then hands the new player off to the FLGS for sustainment throughout the player’s gaming career. While this is a healthy, desirable end state, I believe that GW’s actions are counter to this.
The GW store in my area will have its second anniversary this coming January. In that time, there have been several permanent managers and a handful of temporary managers running this store, a total of 9 managers in all. The reasons for these manager changes have ranged from failure to meet sales goals through disenchantment with corporate policy/direction.
The current manager has inherited a proverbial soup sandwich of a situation. Not only does he have to meet his expected monthly sales figures, he also has to produce enough sales volume to overcome the Fiscal Year to date sales shortfalls he inherited from his predecessors. GW Corporate is holding him accountable for sales performance throughout the entire Fiscal Year, despite the fact that he has only been the manager of this store for less than a handful of months.
Part of the problem lies in the location of this store. It is located in one of the most affluent locations in the area (theoretically a desirable location), but it is also located in the least trafficked area of the shopping center it is located in. This area is also located far enough away from the majority of the local player base who tend to patronize FLGS options located closer to them or turn to internet based sales alternatives.
The GW store manager has more of an FLGS mindset in that he desires to build and sustain an active in store player base ala FLGS style. He does however view the FLGS as competition in this regard, which I believe is the result of having the monthly and cumulative Fiscal Year to date sales quotas always dangling over his head. Factors working against him include store location, limited in store gaming space, restricted opening days and hours, and finally competition from the FLGS themselves.
If GW’s desire is to build and sustain an active local player base in their stores, then the small, one man GW stores are not the approach to take. My local GW store has three 6 X 4 gaming tables shoe horned into an area surrounded by product shelves on three sides. While games are in progress, there is not enough room for purchasing customers to walk around and browse the merchandise on the shelves without having to constantly squeeze by players at the gaming tables. The store also does not allow anyone to use the in store restroom (only the Manager can use it), will not allow food or beverages into store, in addition to all of the other factors mentioned above. The FLGS have the advantage in this area as the environment and experience are both customer and player friendly in these regards. All in all, this is not the way to go about attracting, maintaining and sustaining a dedicated in store player base.
I truly don’t see my local GW store being in existence past the end date of its current lease despite the best heroic sales efforts on the part of the current manager. GW could have prevented this problem by thoroughly researching the local gaming scene and carefully selecting a retail location based on that research before situating this store in its current location.
If GW’s goal is to truly cultivate an active, in store player base, then I believe that they are better served by increasing the manning in one man stores to at least two people while at the same time, reducing the total number of these stores, re-establishing larger, regional battle bunker type stores and working to re-establish long lasting, healthy business relationships with FLGS. By re-establishing multi-man stores, GW can be open for business during more days and hours each week. Limiting business hours to selected hours on Wednesdays through Sundays is causing them to lose potential business.
I would also like to see GW re-establish one large, flagship store in the US that stocked all of the GW product line including FW and BL, similar to the former GW US Headquarters in Glen Burnie, MD. With the savings that GW could have realized by opening fewer one man stores, they could have afforded to keep Glen Burnie open.
adamsouza wrote: Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.
Personally, I've never stepped into an official GW Store, It's not intentional, there has never been one within a reasonable drive. I don't think there has ever been one in my home state for that matter. (Just googled it, it's a 3 hour and 30 mintue drive to the nearest store in Greenwich Village, New York) I learned about 40K in a local comic book shop, and started playing in another comic book shop. As a consequence I imagine, I don't see GW Shops as an important part of the hobby. I routinely see the opposite belief held, even if it is not intentional.
When GW cuts back gaming space, staff, stock, etc.. in a GW shop,someone will post about it, with the belief it is iindicative of the health of the hobby, and GW, as a whole.
Closing a GW store is met with echoes of doom and gloom. When there were copies of Space Hulk left on the shelf, Space Hulk was decried a failure because there were copies still on the shelf at the GW store.
To be honest, I guess I can kind of see where the belief comes from, but I just don't buy it.
I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.
(Note up front: Adam Souza and i are from the same regional area, so there's some regional specific info in this post, that's why. We're both from Southeast Massachusetts.... Heck i think we traded on bartertown once, haha!).
I can sum up this entire post in two points:
1) Wargamers are hyperbolic reactionists.
2) GW has a lot of curious / wonky / bad / flat out stupid ways of conducting business.
It's the same when any local game store dies, all the locals take their microcosm of gaming and extrapolate it to the wider health of the hobby. Incorrectly. They say "oh the hobby is dying around here".... not correct, your store couldn't keep its doors open. Why is that ? Are people giving up the game, or are they playing in their basements, at clubs, etc. Are they not buying at all anymore, or are they buying online at discount ? Etc etc.
While it might be true in the microcosm, it's not in the macrocosm.
Gaming is more accessible now than it ever was and innovative minis are thriving on places like Kickstarter - to the point where even mainstream companies are crowdfunding their R&D (which is absurd, in my eyes, but whatever... if people will pay them for R&D that will get off the ground whether it's crowd funded or not, be my guest).
The real crux here is not if company X is brainwashing / indoctrinating its clientele its that the brick and mortar model continues its slow strangulation death throes. There are people that can still make it work, but their model has adapted. Cards. Board games. Kid friendly stuff. etc. Those are the shops making it. GW doesn't have that arrow in its proverbial quiver.
Offfering discounts at least something like online - 10 years ago in new england if you went into a shop and said "hey, for every 100 bucks i spend, give me 10% off", the shop owner probably would have laughed at you and then asked you to leave. Hell the shop i played at 13 years ago, i witnessed an exchange just like this. The other shop i sometimes went to in Dartmouth, i witnessed something similar.
They're both long since closed up their doors.
Now the most successful shop around here, Battleground Games and Hobbies, does that as standard operating practice and policy. It's all to combat the "well i can buy this from the warestore for 20% off" mentality. Guess what ? Abbington is still open to this day, and their new(er) store, Plainville is thriving and kicking ass.
So its not really a problem with the hobby. Its a problem with the brick and mortar model. Moreover its a problem that GW doesn't have an answer like game stores that have figured out how to stay open, which they've done through adaptation and diversification.
While it might be true in the microcosm, it's not in the macrocosm.
Yes.Yes,Yes. Thank you for getting it.
---------
You mentioned Dartmouth, that would have been Grandmasters, and you couldn't have chosen a better example about the discount and GW indoctrination to their way of thinking.
I had multiple discussions with the store owner about the possibility of getting a discount when making large orders. Every time it came down to the same thing, GW had brain washed him into the logic trap that if he offered any discount he would have to sell twice as much stock. The discussion would just grind to a halt there. He would rather I spend my money elsewhere, and receive a 0% cut of the profit, because 20% was half as much as 40% and "he'd have to sell twice as much product." I thought at one point he might just have a grudge against me, but I watched him have this conversation with other customers.
In it's defense, and this means a lot coming from me because I didn't like the owner, not offering a discount isn't what closed Grandmasters. They built a Best Buy in the same plaza and the land lord wanted to triple the rent. The store owner's brother in law offered him a great job at his company. It was more pay, less head aches, and fewer hours. He received an offer from one of the regular gamers there who went on to open Game Haven up the street.
Game Haven actually offered a 10% discount for a $10 yearly membership, which included a locker to store your stuff a the shop. Game Haven was actually quite popular with GW and FOW crowds but ended up closing after disputes with the their land lord. First the Landlord had destroyed their store sign while remodelling and then they found out that the water supply there was pretty contaminated with lead. They found out about the contamination because they were using the tap water in their childs formula and were furious, closing up shop within a week.
Interesting info on Grandmaster (and game haven, which i only went to once).
What's really ironic, is this is not at ALL what the locals started rumormongering about, haha! Which just proves the point. I heard all sorts of stories involving personal crisis (bankruptcy, for one thing), to poor business management. So assuming the "family offered a better job is true", this really slams home the home run of my point of "gamers are not always, but tend to be hyperbolic reactionists".
However, i'm with you that Grand Master ... had the potential to be a good store, but my gaming crew never ended up calling that home because we weren't a huge fan of the owner, or the clique of 5-6 owner's friends that called that home and pretty made anyone else feel like they were bothering them if they dared come in and play. I won't name names, but there were two guys that drove me absolutely crazy there. All in all it wasn't really a great store because it wasn't welcoming. And you're right - while i never approached the owner for a discount, he had that feet in the sand mentality - my way or the high way. So its interesting to hear that the store didn't encounter problems other than the Best Buy. I never believed the craziest of the stories, but figured that what happens to most happened ; it just became unsustainable. Considering how clique-y the store was, that didn't seem hard to imagine. If you make an environment where only 5 people feel welcome, and everyone else is impinging on their clubhouse, its hard to keep the doors open.
Same for the other store i referred to, but in that instance, I know for a fact that the store ceased being profitable and was actually losing money.
Anywho... good hearing from you and thanks for the info on those stores.
adamsouza wrote: Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.
Personally, I've never stepped into an official GW Store, It's not intentional, there has never been one within a reasonable drive. I don't think there has ever been one in my home state for that matter. (Just googled it, it's a 3 hour and 30 mintue drive to the nearest store in Greenwich Village, New York) I learned about 40K in a local comic book shop, and started playing in another comic book shop. As a consequence I imagine, I don't see GW Shops as an important part of the hobby. I routinely see the opposite belief held, even if it is not intentional.
When GW cuts back gaming space, staff, stock, etc.. in a GW shop,someone will post about it, with the belief it is iindicative of the health of the hobby, and GW, as a whole.
Closing a GW store is met with echoes of doom and gloom. When there were copies of Space Hulk left on the shelf, Space Hulk was decried a failure because there were copies still on the shelf at the GW store.
To be honest, I guess I can kind of see where the belief comes from, but I just don't buy it.
I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.
(Note up front: Adam Souza and i are from the same regional area, so there's some regional specific info in this post, that's why. We're both from Southeast Massachusetts.... Heck i think we traded on bartertown once, haha!).
I can sum up this entire post in two points:
1) Wargamers are hyperbolic reactionists.
2) GW has a lot of curious / wonky / bad / flat out stupid ways of conducting business.
It's the same when any local game store dies, all the locals take their microcosm of gaming and extrapolate it to the wider health of the hobby. Incorrectly. They say "oh the hobby is dying around here".... not correct, your store couldn't keep its doors open. Why is that ? Are people giving up the game, or are they playing in their basements, at clubs, etc. Are they not buying at all anymore, or are they buying online at discount ? Etc etc.
While it might be true in the microcosm, it's not in the macrocosm.
Gaming is more accessible now than it ever was and innovative minis are thriving on places like Kickstarter - to the point where even mainstream companies are crowdfunding their R&D (which is absurd, in my eyes, but whatever... if people will pay them for R&D that will get off the ground whether it's crowd funded or not, be my guest).
The real crux here is not if company X is brainwashing / indoctrinating its clientele its that the brick and mortar model continues its slow strangulation death throes. There are people that can still make it work, but their model has adapted. Cards. Board games. Kid friendly stuff. etc. Those are the shops making it. GW doesn't have that arrow in its proverbial quiver.
Offfering discounts at least something like online - 10 years ago in new england if you went into a shop and said "hey, for every 100 bucks i spend, give me 10% off", the shop owner probably would have laughed at you and then asked you to leave. Hell the shop i played at 13 years ago, i witnessed an exchange just like this. The other shop i sometimes went to in Dartmouth, i witnessed something similar.
They're both long since closed up their doors.
Now the most successful shop around here, Battleground Games and Hobbies, does that as standard operating practice and policy. It's all to combat the "well i can buy this from the warestore for 20% off" mentality. Guess what ? Abbington is still open to this day, and their new(er) store, Plainville is thriving and kicking ass.
So its not really a problem with the hobby. Its a problem with the brick and mortar model. Moreover its a problem that GW doesn't have an answer like game stores that have figured out how to stay open, which they've done through adaptation and diversification.
My (thirty-)two cents on the matter.
-- Haight
Then explain the global sales loss of $17.20 million USD in the last report, that is not a micro economics but macroeconomics.
Also in my area alone in the last 7 years has seen a healthy retail and gaming league scene which had 7 retail outlets and 6 gaming leagues with about 500 players to now 2 retail outlets and 1 gaming league with at best 15 to 20 players.
Can you explain how in Australia at it's height GW had 300+ independent stockists, now 75. And in light of the new retail practices by GW in Europe with their "Trade Partners" is resulting in Independent Stockists are pulling out in large numbers with dozens of stores no longer stocking GW product.
I have explained this but their are some who for whatever reason categorically refuse to understand the issues.
adamsouza wrote: Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.
Personally, I've never stepped into an official GW Store, It's not intentional, there has never been one within a reasonable drive. I don't think there has ever been one in my home state for that matter. (Just googled it, it's a 3 hour and 30 mintue drive to the nearest store in Greenwich Village, New York) I learned about 40K in a local comic book shop, and started playing in another comic book shop. As a consequence I imagine, I don't see GW Shops as an important part of the hobby. I routinely see the opposite belief held, even if it is not intentional.
When GW cuts back gaming space, staff, stock, etc.. in a GW shop,someone will post about it, with the belief it is iindicative of the health of the hobby, and GW, as a whole.
Closing a GW store is met with echoes of doom and gloom. When there were copies of Space Hulk left on the shelf, Space Hulk was decried a failure because there were copies still on the shelf at the GW store.
To be honest, I guess I can kind of see where the belief comes from, but I just don't buy it.
I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.
(Note up front: Adam Souza and i are from the same regional area, so there's some regional specific info in this post, that's why. We're both from Southeast Massachusetts.... Heck i think we traded on bartertown once, haha!).
I can sum up this entire post in two points:
1) Wargamers are hyperbolic reactionists.
2) GW has a lot of curious / wonky / bad / flat out stupid ways of conducting business.
It's the same when any local game store dies, all the locals take their microcosm of gaming and extrapolate it to the wider health of the hobby. Incorrectly. They say "oh the hobby is dying around here".... not correct, your store couldn't keep its doors open. Why is that ? Are people giving up the game, or are they playing in their basements, at clubs, etc. Are they not buying at all anymore, or are they buying online at discount ? Etc etc.
While it might be true in the microcosm, it's not in the macrocosm.
Gaming is more accessible now than it ever was and innovative minis are thriving on places like Kickstarter - to the point where even mainstream companies are crowdfunding their R&D (which is absurd, in my eyes, but whatever... if people will pay them for R&D that will get off the ground whether it's crowd funded or not, be my guest).
The real crux here is not if company X is brainwashing / indoctrinating its clientele its that the brick and mortar model continues its slow strangulation death throes. There are people that can still make it work, but their model has adapted. Cards. Board games. Kid friendly stuff. etc. Those are the shops making it. GW doesn't have that arrow in its proverbial quiver.
Offfering discounts at least something like online - 10 years ago in new england if you went into a shop and said "hey, for every 100 bucks i spend, give me 10% off", the shop owner probably would have laughed at you and then asked you to leave. Hell the shop i played at 13 years ago, i witnessed an exchange just like this. The other shop i sometimes went to in Dartmouth, i witnessed something similar.
They're both long since closed up their doors.
Now the most successful shop around here, Battleground Games and Hobbies, does that as standard operating practice and policy. It's all to combat the "well i can buy this from the warestore for 20% off" mentality. Guess what ? Abbington is still open to this day, and their new(er) store, Plainville is thriving and kicking ass.
So its not really a problem with the hobby. Its a problem with the brick and mortar model. Moreover its a problem that GW doesn't have an answer like game stores that have figured out how to stay open, which they've done through adaptation and diversification.
My (thirty-)two cents on the matter.
-- Haight
Then explain the global sales loss of $17.20 million USD in the last report, that is not a micro economics but macroeconomics.
Also in my area alone in the last 7 years has seen a healthy retail and gaming league scene which had 7 retail outlets and 6 gaming leagues with about 500 players to now 2 retail outlets and 1 gaming league with at best 15 to 20 players.
Can you explain how in Australia at it's height GW had 300+ independent stockists, now 75. And in light of the new retail practices by GW in Europe with their "Trade Partners" is resulting in Independent Stockists are pulling out in large numbers with dozens of stores no longer stocking GW product.
I have explained this but their are some who for whatever reason categorically refuse to understand the issues.
No one is disputing that ; cease searching for a GW white knight defender where none exists, or someone decrying your stance as false where none was made. Also you allude to where "you've explained this all before", but you speak like 1) I have any idea who you are, or 2) your treatise on the matter is unto law given word format. Geez. Put succintly, chill out.
We're not talking about health of the company (which had some AWFUL moments in the past couple years), or its business practices (which generally suck but have small shiny moments of hope each year). I would probably agree with you on these particular points by the way.
We're talking about gamers in general tending to see an individual store not doing well and then extrapolating that to the hobby in a wider macrocosm.
Gaming in general is not on the decline, though GW might have been last year (we'll see the next financial report if that trend continues).... however you're proving my point that taking a microcosm (in this case a large one - GW's financial health) and extrapolating that to the tabletop gaming industry at large. Warmachine and Hordes are doing better than ever - so much so that Privateer was able to launch other games (fair being fair: i have no idea how well Level 7 or 9 whatever its called is doing). Malifaux was successful enough to reboot its line of minis into plastic (and gorgeous ones at that). Games like Xwing , dropzone commander are getting attention. Once independent manufacturers like Mantic are gaining steam. Kickstarters offer lots of indies options.
Gaming on the whole is doing better ; the brick and mortar model ( Be it GW or otherwise, which again, you missed the WHOLE damn point of my post which i swung away from the microcosm of GW and to the wider hobby / industry as a whole, and which Adam Souza, the OP, agreed with) is not, though there are some smart entrepreneurs out there that have managed to make it work and thrive.
Take your area: have people given up gaming ? Or did those retail outlets close because people bought online ? Maybe a healthy bit of both ? Also while your figures are anecdotal and impossible to prove or disprove on gamers in the area, i simply don't believe your gaming area had 500 active purchasing players and now is down to 15-20. These sound like ridiculous figures to me - particularly the 500. No industry or product, unless you are the pager in comparison to the cell phone sees that kind of decrease unless you are made completely obsolete (like the horse and buggy vs. the car, or the steam engine vs. the internal combustion engine).
Have clubs opened in your area (which was a very popular thing in my area for several years after some retailers closed up shop, the pendulum has now swung the other way that there are now 4 shops with a thriving clientele, and a few - i can name 3, but there might be more - clubs are still around and kicking - and this is just in central to southeastern massachussetts. I don't get up to the north shore much, so there could be more.
So in closing you missed, largely the point of the discussion, but you were so quick to slam GW that you ignored the larger points - which is fine, i don't disagree with you on your slams, but again, you're proving my point by reinforcing that gamers think in the microcosm not the macrocosm. Tabletop gaming is in a MUCH better place than it was ten years ago by almost every benchmark except the brick and mortar retailer benchmark.
And your sales claims of GW dipping, while true and valid, don't indicate a dearth of gaming ; they indicate a dearth of GW gaming - games like PP's games, Wyrd's, Fantasy Flight, Mantic, Corvus belli and others are doing really really well.
I have no idea why the heck you evne took the time to reply to my post... it's like you didn't bother reading it or even try to understand what i was saying, but couldn't hit reply fast enough to type a couple googled facts, throw out a couple of ridiculous stats as "facts", and "prove" somehow that GW sucks ... which no one is particularly denying for one, and in addition, proves my point right on the money aside from your ridiculous claims of an impossibly large playgroup that i seriously doubt numbered 500 people. I mean... some regional gaming cons barely get 500 tabletop players, and you're claiming your every day play groups in the area had that many. I turn a skeptical eye towards that. I really skeptical eye with my nose pinched shut, eyeing up the male bovine farm next door.
Achaylus72 , you have crafted a passionate post seemingly in responce to a post other than the ones you quoted.
My stance in the OP was that any one local GW Store is not an indicator of the overall health of the GW hobby.
Personally, I think the problem with GW in Austrailia is that they charge you poor bastards twice as much, even though your currency is on par with the US dollar.
If GW is going for niche collectors, then that have to compete with actual collector's pieces... I don't think they're good enough to step up to boutique lines like Kingdom Death, artist lines like Andrea, and the "every man" miniature line like Reaper. Kindgom Death makes incredible resin limited run minis, Andrea makes both historical and fantasy sculpts (along with many companies like them), and Reaper makes models priced correctly for a broad market.
GW makes cartoony minis in relatively overcosted packs for mini collectors. Spend $30 for a 28mm heroic scale figure (plastic or poor resin) versus $10~$20 for a truescale 54mm in metal. If they are shooting for an even narrower margin of folks who are just "GW Collectors" then I don't think they can sustain the business model they have. I'm actually pretty certain they cannot given they do all injection molding plastic in house that only becomes profitable at high volume sales versus metals or resins.
I absolutely do not want to turn this thread into another discussion about how GW may or may not fail in the next few years, but you mentioned the $30 single figures.
Forgive me if I can't recall the thread, but it was mentioned that a GW staffer confessed that
1.) Molds for plastics have down in price in recent years
2.) Those $30 single figs GW is fond of lately, pay for themselves on release day
TheKbob wrote: If GW is going for niche collectors, then that have to compete with actual collector's pieces... I don't think they're good enough to step up to boutique lines like Kingdom Death, artist lines like Andrea, and the "every man" miniature line like Reaper. Kindgom Death makes incredible resin limited run minis, Andrea makes both historical and fantasy sculpts (along with many companies like them), and Reaper makes models priced correctly for a broad market.
GW makes cartoony minis in relatively overcosted packs for mini collectors. Spend $30 for a 28mm heroic scale figure (plastic or poor resin) versus $10~$20 for a truescale 54mm in metal. If they are shooting for an even narrower margin of folks who are just "GW Collectors" then I don't think they can sustain the business model they have. I'm actually pretty certain they cannot given they do all injection molding plastic in house that only becomes profitable at high volume sales versus metals or resins.
I've recently swung away from gaming into collecting and painting for its own sake and this is exactly what I've experienced.
I've been buying large scale resin pieces with limited runs of 100-200 because they are sculpted and produced in the artists garage. That to me is collecting and those are mind blowing quality.
adamsouza wrote: I absolutely do not want to turn this thread into another discussion about how GW may or may not fail in the next few years, but you mentioned the $30 single figures.
Forgive me if I can't recall the thread, but it was mentioned that a GW staffer confessed that 1.) Molds for plastics have down in price in recent years 2.) Those $30 single figs GW is fond of lately, pay for themselves on release day
Remove the game. Now do they? And what's your data because most of the Kickstarters and other companies (like Wyrd and Dreamforge) still suggest a significantly higher investment, more so than a resin/metal spin-type mold. And they sell their's at a cheaper cost/higher volume with no in-house production capabilities, meaning GW should be able to undercut having nearly a vertical consolidation for pipelining out minis.
Or was the intent of your post to say the are not just overpriced but insanely overpriced to pay for themselves on release day?
There is no removing the game. When GW stops making the game there will be no reason to buy the miniatures.
I don't appreciate you trying to put words in my mouth about GW's pricing. They are profitable at their current pricing. That was my point.
As you pointed out, they do thier own plastic in house, while every kickstarter out there is getting someone outside of thier company to do it for them. It's cheaper for GW to do plastic than any Kickstarter can manage. If you don't understand that concept, your entire concept of their buissiness model is flawed.
The reason for GW doing their own casting in house (including plastic) has nothing to do with price, its because they are paranoid about Chinese recasters.
jonolikespie wrote: The reason for GW doing their own casting in house (including plastic) has nothing to do with price, its because they are paranoid about Chinese recasters.
It's also about price; it saves them a fortune.
adamsouza wrote: I absolutely do not want to turn this thread into another discussion about how GW may or may not fail in the next few years, but you mentioned the $30 single figures.
Forgive me if I can't recall the thread, but it was mentioned that a GW staffer confessed that
1.) Molds for plastics have down in price in recent years
2.) Those $30 single figs GW is fond of lately, pay for themselves on release day
1. I don't think anyone will deny molds have dropped in price significantly; there's even cheaper steel/aluminium for smaller runs. I believe it's now well under $10,000 for a mold, and this is shown by the sheer volume of new companies getting plastic molds done, and even Salute 2013 had an LE mini made in plastic to give away to visitors.
2. I've never heard that but I wouldn't be surprised. Back of envelope calculations show you only need to sell about ~1500 to recover the cost of the mold ($10,000 for mold, $500 for design, 25% of sticker price covering the overheads). That gives about $7 in fixed overheads (design/mold) + maybe $1 in per-unit (the plastic stamp, box, shipping), they sell to stores for $15, which sell to customers for $30. I've no idea how many places sell GW stuff these days, but if there were 500 globally, that's only 3 per shop.
jonolikespie wrote: The reason for GW doing their own casting in house (including plastic) has nothing to do with price, its because they are paranoid about Chinese recasters.
It's mostlyabout price. GW was producing their own miniatures in metal, plastic, and resin long before there were recasters.
Hulksmash wrote: ****Disclaimer - This is for the US only. I assume GW in the UK works similarly but only know 100% for sure this is the US Policy****
GW Stores are for recruiting this has been the case since at least 2001. The only stores based around regular gamers were the Battle Bunkers. First they get new hobbyists into warhammer or 40k and then the purpose is then to shift the newly recruited people out to FLGS's. It's up to the FLGS and the GW employee though to make this relationship work.
I think that is a doomed plan from the start. What incentive does the FLGS have to take on the maintenance of the new customer? The GW store has likely already sold him his rule books and pulled out all of his initial investment of models, then passes him off to the FLGS to game at. The FLGS now has to eat the overhead costs associated with this player without any associated sales from him/her. The FLGS has to hope that the new player stays within the game -and- wants to expand the army -and- wants to expand it from the limited availablity of models can sell. Hopefully its a third tactical squad and not a couple Direct Only special characters.
Completely disagree.
The smart FLGS creates a home for the Wargamer. GW stores don't offer a discount, so the FLGS isn't competing with them on price (though they do compete with online retailers). The FLGS just has to generate enough loyalty that the gamer will come to them when they want too...
-buy hobby supplies (paint, dice, flock etc)
-Start a new army
-Move to a new game
-Add units to their army. (yes I realize that some units are only orderable)
-Buy terrain
-Buy the new edition, codex, etc.
-Play in a tournament
-etc, etc.
The FLGS has EVERY incentive to maintain the new customer. It simply requires having a longer term view of the customer as a "Gamer" and not just a "GW newbie who already bought their army". My favorite FLGS is my favorite because they carry alot of non-GW stuff. However, GW product still occupies a larger part of the store than any other maker (reaper is a close second) is located at the front of the store, and they still have alot of GW games played in their gaming area during the week.
And this is a store with at least 3 GW stores in a 20 mile radius, and one that's located in the nearby super-Mega-Mall that's only 7 miles away. Yet the FLGS still thrives.
jonolikespie wrote: The reason for GW doing their own casting in house (including plastic) has nothing to do with price, its because they are paranoid about Chinese recasters.
It's also about price; it saves them a fortune.
adamsouza wrote: I absolutely do not want to turn this thread into another discussion about how GW may or may not fail in the next few years, but you mentioned the $30 single figures.
Forgive me if I can't recall the thread, but it was mentioned that a GW staffer confessed that
1.) Molds for plastics have down in price in recent years
2.) Those $30 single figs GW is fond of lately, pay for themselves on release day
1. I don't think anyone will deny molds have dropped in price significantly; there's even cheaper steel/aluminium for smaller runs. I believe it's now well under $10,000 for a mold, and this is shown by the sheer volume of new companies getting plastic molds done, and even Salute 2013 had an LE mini made in plastic to give away to visitors.
2. I've never heard that but I wouldn't be surprised. Back of envelope calculations show you only need to sell about ~1500 to recover the cost of the mold ($10,000 for mold, $500 for design, 25% of sticker price covering the overheads). That gives about $7 in fixed overheads (design/mold) + maybe $1 in per-unit (the plastic stamp, box, shipping), they sell to stores for $15, which sell to customers for $30. I've no idea how many places sell GW stuff these days, but if there were 500 globally, that's only 3 per shop.
I can speak of this in terms of companies making steel molds inhouse, I clearly remember about 24 years ago reading in Fine Scale Modeller about how Tamiya make their models from scratch to a retail boxed kit.
In 1990 Tamiya costed their steel molds at $2 million USD per steel mold. Why? because the manufacturing costs were due to the fact that at that time all steel molds were made by hand and very time consuming and almost exclusively by hand. How does this relate to GW as of today, it costs GW 50,000 pounds per steel mold to make, why because they are produced with computers and are almost exclusively cut by automated machines and due to modern manufacturing techniques it is vastly cheaper to produce steel molds. The steel molds are designed on a computer and then are sent down to the automated cutting machine and within hours they have steel molds ready to be fitted to the universal injection machines.
I mostly play at my local GW, it seems really big compared to thoose one-man stores. There is three gaming tables(they are pretty small, though) and there is almost always 2-3 employees there at all times, all are really cool people. I could play at a local FLGS but because I don't know anyone there, as opposed to the GW store, I haven't played a match there. Will proabaly start soon though, as my need for more space and more serious opponents may outweigh the cons.
I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.
1) Sacramento Ca has one has a good amount of tables
2) GW is trying to sell there Product, would you go into a Ford dealership and see them selling Chevy or GM? No.
3)I play orks and one of the employees came up to me and saw my ramshackled trucks that were not official GW models HE TOOK PICTURES OF THEM! *gasp* He then told me how cool they are and wanted to know what I did to make them.
4) The employee gave me his number so we can play 40k he did not push miniatures or anything he opened up a 7th codex for orks and let me use it when I was there.
I play with about 18 people some close friends others just people I met because we enjoy the same hobby we all have complaints about prices and some funny/stupid lore. But we all agree that GW has changed some of there methods. Like a giant Emperor class cruiser turning around.
What I am sick of is the thousands of posts of "GW is the devil"
adamsouza wrote: Not arguing that. I'm actually a huge fan of most of GW's games. I just think people read too much importance into the value of the official GW Stores.
I disagree. I think GW stores (and Battle Bunkers) are irrelevant. I played in them once or twice, ordered from them a couple times. But there was nothing special about it.
I don't think they matter, and I'm not sure why you're concerned about them. GW tried B&M, and appears to be done with the concept.
adamsouza wrote: Not arguing that. I'm actually a huge fan of most of GW's games. I just think people read too much importance into the value of the official GW Stores.
I disagree. I think GW stores (and Battle Bunkers) are irrelevant. I played in them once or twice, ordered from them a couple times. But there was nothing special about it.
I don't think they matter, and I'm not sure why you're concerned about them. GW tried B&M, and appears to be done with the concept.
You disagree by completely agreeing with me ? I see why you are confused about my concern.
I started this thread because I was noticed that there is a segment of the Dakka Population, who play in GW stores, who misinterpret changes at their local GW shops for changes in the hobby in general.
I'm in a similar mindset to you Adamsouza, my closest GW is roughly 250-300 miles away, although my gaming/hobbying is all done with a local group of simlarly minded wargamers who rent out one of our local 'Scout Halls' if not it is at home in a garage with friends.
We have one independent stockist nearby (about 30ish miles from us) who basically only sells GW products and has no room for gaming tables etc.
I always find it strange how people react to these changes but I've always just pinned it down to my perspective being fairly different as I've never relied on a GW store for anything.
Besides I always thought that GW would always make more money online than they would in actual stores as most stores don't carry full stocks and I've never seen the point of ordering to a store and picking up from there (but then this is because distance is a factor for me.).
Plus the larger gaming/hobby events are always rumoured to pull in huge amounts of money, the likes of games day which I've been to 4-5 times before always seemed to sell well. (Although I don't know how warhammer fest went.)
zombiekila707 wrote: 2) GW is trying to sell there Product, would you go into a Ford dealership and see them selling Chevy or GM? No.
You completely missed the point there. Nobody expects GW to sell non-GW products in their own stores, the point is that this makes a GW store inferior to an independent store from the point of view of the customer. The GW store sells GW products, the independent store sells the same GW products and also sells a lot of other stuff that you might want to buy. And they might even sell the same GW products at a discount! So there's no reason to even consider going to the GW store.
What I am sick of is the thousands of posts of "GW is the devil"
So am I. I would love it if GW would stop doing things that drive people to post entirely justified "GW sucks" complaints.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And if you don't have a FLGS and only have a local GW?
Sucks for you. Thankfully this situation rarely exists in the US.
(And if you pay attention to the whole paragraph instead of just taking that one sentence out of context you'll notice that I was talking about a comparison between a GW store and an independent store, which implies the existence of both.)
I must admit though if I had the luxury of choosing between a FLGS and a GW, I must admit I'd probably choose a FLGS, not that GW stores are terrible or anything, but logic applies that you'd go to the place that supplies all of your hobby/gaming needs and you inevitibly go to the cheaper option when you have the choice (which often means not GW).
Also from what I've heard about UKGW stores, is that most don't provide gaming space beyond introductory games. (That may not be the case everywhere, just from what I've read.)
I have both a local GW and more than one independent gaming retailer within a reasonable distance of me.
In the end I intentionally made a retailer secondary to my hobby. I got together with enough like minded people and we rent a room in a community centre once a month. As well we also go to a monthly board game night and bring drop cloths and terrain and play there two. In addition to that we play in eachother's homes and at local events/miniconventions that happen a few times a year. The end result is that we play at least once a week and everyone buys from wherever they want with no "pay where you play" pressure.
To get back to the point of the original post though:
adamsouza wrote: GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.
GW does indeed try to segment their market place. They want their customers to be ignorant of other options.
I never had a GW store around for the majority of my hobby life. If I criticize GW's attempt to segment their market place and provide a complete package to those ignorant of better options, it is because it is bad for the customer. You end up with stupid things like paying $10 for 5ml of plastic glue when you can get vastly superior glue for less money by going with Ambroid ProWeld, Plastruct Cement, Tamiya thin, Testors thin, etc.,.
GW segmenting their market allows them to wring as much money out of each ignorant customer as possible.
adamsouza wrote: Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.
Personally, I've never stepped into an official GW Store, It's not intentional, there has never been one within a reasonable drive. I don't think there has ever been one in my home state for that matter. (Just googled it, it's a 3 hour and 30 mintue drive to the nearest store in Greenwich Village, New York) I learned about 40K in a local comic book shop, and started playing in another comic book shop. As a consequence I imagine, I don't see GW Shops as an important part of the hobby. I routinely see the opposite belief held, even if it is not intentional.
When GW cuts back gaming space, staff, stock, etc.. in a GW shop,someone will post about it, with the belief it is iindicative of the health of the hobby, and GW, as a whole.
Closing a GW store is met with echoes of doom and gloom. When there were copies of Space Hulk left on the shelf, Space Hulk was decried a failure because there were copies still on the shelf at the GW store.
To be honest, I guess I can kind of see where the belief comes from, but I just don't buy it.
I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.
I have read this several times and I have an opinion, you have never stepped inside an actual GW store, so in regards you have no first hand knowledge of the seen pertaining to GW stores.
1, You hear stories but have never witnessed anything, you opinion is hearsay and nothing else, blurred by other people's construed facts to suit themselves and you take that on board and your conclusion are baseless without first hand knowledge.
2,GW makes it's decision where to locate their stores with the best information at the time and if that proves disadvantageous they close that store, this is business. Local independent stockists that also carry a wider variety of gaming systems have by in-large larger players who play their own games such as Magic the Gathering and don't play anything else, those stores must cater for a wider audience, while GW caters for GW products only, any other claim over the amount of table is disingenuous to GW.
3, Claiming that GW frowns upon other figures from other manufacturers is rank ignorance of the facts. Why should a GW store allow a player to play a game in-store with other folks figures, you can not play Magic the Gathering with Pokémon cards, to raise that as an issue is again disingenuous to GW. Also if GW are sponsoring that non GW hobby store's league then they will abide by GW rules, I dare you next time to use Pokémon cards in your next Magic the Gathering game and see how far that get's you.
4, GW employees are sale people first and hobbyist second, again to be blunt having never going into a GW store to a first hand account of these people you have no right to make these claims, again you are been disingenuous to both GW and those who staff these stores. I have been in many GW stores and their first love is the hobby who are sales employees, also you lack all credibility. GW store employees are there to seel product, this actually keeps the store running, that is called business that unfortunately you lack an understanding of.
5, When was the last time you or anyone else that complains about GW ever stepped into a store totally dedicated to Warmachine and that it is operated by PP, as far as I know GW is the only games manufacturer that operates it's own stores as well as using independent stockist, if they aren't then inform me.
Achaylus72 wrote: I have read this several times and I have an opinion, you have never stepped inside an actual GW store, so in regards you have no first hand knowledge of the seen pertaining to GW stores.
1, You hear stories but have never witnessed anything, you opinion is hearsay and nothing else, blurred by other people's construed facts to suit themselves and you take that on board and your conclusion are baseless without first hand knowledge.
2,GW makes it's decision where to locate their stores with the best information at the time and if that proves disadvantageous they close that store, this is business. Local independent stockists that also carry a wider variety of gaming systems have by in-large larger players who play their own games such as Magic the Gathering and don't play anything else, those stores must cater for a wider audience, while GW caters for GW products only, any other claim over the amount of table is disingenuous to GW.
3, Claiming that GW frowns upon other figures from other manufacturers is rank ignorance of the facts. Why should a GW store allow a player to play a game in-store with other folks figures, you can not play Magic the Gathering with Pokémon cards, to raise that as an issue is again disingenuous to GW. Also if GW are sponsoring that non GW hobby store's league then they will abide by GW rules, I dare you next time to use Pokémon cards in your next Magic the Gathering game and see how far that get's you.
4, GW employees are sale people first and hobbyist second, again to be blunt having never going into a GW store to a first hand account of these people you have no right to make these claims, again you are been disingenuous to both GW and those who staff these stores. I have been in many GW stores and their first love is the hobby who are sales employees, also you lack all credibility. GW store employees are there to seel product, this actually keeps the store running, that is called business that unfortunately you lack an understanding of.
5, When was the last time you or anyone else that complains about GW ever stepped into a store totally dedicated to Warmachine and that it is operated by PP, as far as I know GW is the only games manufacturer that operates it's own stores as well as using independent stockist, if they aren't then inform me.
I have been to a few GW stores so let me take a crack at this.
You've claimed that other stores cater to more games so they need more tables as if a GW store somehow doesn't?
Its irrelevant what games are carried. If I want a game I'm better off going to my FLGS, it has more tables and because of that there are more opportunities to play. End of discussion. More tables are better regardless of games carried.
Your pokemon-magic analogy is strange, a model with CH shoulderpads is still clearly a model of a space marine with no effect on the rules of the game...
Ignoring that though we're back to you arguing that GW don't have a reason to let you play non-GW model in their store. Fine, I accept that, but its still irrelevant if I want to game. The FLGS wins again as I now can't play at GW even if I wanted to.
FLGS staff are there to sell product too, I don't know why you would think otherwise, but lets ignore that. The issue with GW being salesmen first is going to vary from area to area and store to store but it is a fact that they have very high targets to meet and that in a single man store they are going to, out of necessity, have to focus on selling over hobby related things. Again there are good reasons for this but they are irrelevant because I, as a customer, am getting a negative experience from it.
As for the concept of a Warmachine store, it'll never happen as the cost of GWs retail chain is currently killing them while other games are experiencing significant growth while working with FLGSs rather than against them. If other companies did thought they very well might allow things like aftermarket heads and shoulderpads. Hell, mantic don't sell a generic human line for kings of war because there are so many historicals out there to use, and for a while there they where encourage avatars of war heroes be used in their game.
3, Claiming that GW frowns upon other figures from other manufacturers is rank ignorance of the facts. Why should a GW store allow a player to play a game in-store with other folks figures, you can not play Magic the Gathering with Pokémon cards, to raise that as an issue is again disingenuous to GW. Also if GW are sponsoring that non GW hobby store's league then they will abide by GW rules, I dare you next time to use Pokémon cards in your next Magic the Gathering game and see how far that get's you.
5, When was the last time you or anyone else that complains about GW ever stepped into a store totally dedicated to Warmachine and that it is operated by PP, as far as I know GW is the only games manufacturer that operates it's own stores as well as using independent stockist, if they aren't then inform me.
The card example makes no sense as the cards have rules and cannot for example be exchanged by playing cards, Wargames on the other hand, the figure is just a representation of a stat in the rulebook and exchanging it with other figures has no influence on the game play.
GW stores have this rule pure for business reasons, using figures from other companies is lost revenue.
Achaylus72 wrote: I have read this several times and I have an opinion, you have never stepped inside an actual GW store, so in regards you have no first hand knowledge of the seen pertaining to GW stores.
“Its like a finger pointing away to the moon. Dont concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.” ― Bruce Lee, Striking Thoughts: Bruce Lee's Wisdom for Daily Living
My thread is about the mind set of some people who play in GW stores placing too much value on them, not the stores themselves.
1, You hear stories but have never witnessed anything, you opinion is hearsay and nothing else, blurred by other people's construed facts to suit themselves and you take that on board and your conclusion are baseless without first hand knowledge.
Your idea that you can't form an opinion without first hand knowledge is ludicrous.
I don't have to be a heroin addict to know being a heroin addict sucks.
2,GW makes it's decision where to locate their stores with the best information at the time and if that proves disadvantageous they close that store, this is business. Local independent stockists that also carry a wider variety of gaming systems have by in-large larger players who play their own games such as Magic the Gathering and don't play anything else, those stores must cater for a wider audience, while GW caters for GW products only, any other claim over the amount of table is disingenuous to GW.
I'm not entirely certain what the point you are trying to make here in this section.
Are you claiming that GW stores have limited table space because other stores who carry more varied product have more customers ?
3, Claiming that GW frowns upon other figures from other manufacturers is rank ignorance of the facts.
No, it's not. GW frowns on you using compatible models from other manufacturers because of the perceived loss of income. There is no ignorance on my part on this.
Why should a GW store allow a player to play a game in-store with other folks figures you can not play Magic the Gathering with Pokémon cards, to raise that as an issue is again disingenuous to GW.
You can not play MTG with Pokemon cards because they are printed pieces of paper with competely incompatble rules and symbols on them.
You can play 40K and Fantasy with miniatures from other manufacturers because the rules are contained in a book and the models are just proxy markers you push around a table to represent your forces in game.
Also if GW are sponsoring that non GW hobby store's league then they will abide by GW rules, I dare you next time to use Pokémon cards in your next Magic the Gathering game and see how far that get's you.
You are being disengenous at this point. Playing MTG with Pokemon cards is much like playing MTG with a normal deck of playing cards. It's mechanically imposible and a terrible analogy for playing GW games with other manufacturers miniatures.
4, GW employees are sale people first and hobbyist second, again to be blunt having never going into a GW store to a first hand account of these people you have no right to make these claims, again you are been disingenuous to both GW and those who staff these stores. I have been in many GW stores and their first love is the hobby who are sales employees, also you lack all credibility.
Applying your own logic, you have no right to make these claims, and again you are been disingenuous. Since you've never met me, or witnessed me making any such claims first hand you are relying on second hand information about me to form conclusions without first hand knowledge.
GW store employees are there to seel product, this actually keeps the store running, that is called business that unfortunately you lack an understanding of.
The first part applies to other gaming shops as well, so I don't understand why you think it's significant enough to point out. The second part is just a hyperbolic insult directed at me.
5, When was the last time you or anyone else that complains about GW ever stepped into a store totally dedicated to Warmachine and that it is operated by PP, as far as I know GW is the only games manufacturer that operates it's own stores as well as using independent stockist, if they aren't then inform me.
So you want me to tell you the last time I stepped into a store that doesn't exist ?
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The greatest irony of this thread has become the multiple allegations of me being a GW hater. I am usually accused of being a GW Fanboi by people who actually hate GW.
adamsouza wrote: The greatest irony of this thread has become the multiple allegations of me being a GW hater. I am usually accused of being a GW Fanboi by people who actually hate GW.
Kinda sucks doesn't it? That's how most people feel about being called 'haters'.
adamsouza wrote: The greatest irony of this thread has become the multiple allegations of me being a GW hater. I am usually accused of being a GW Fanboi by people who actually hate GW.
Kinda sucks doesn't it? That's how most people feel about being called 'haters'.
Honestly, I find it kind of amusing. I'm waiting for the inevitable comparisons to myself and Hitler.
Achaylus72 wrote: Local independent stockists that also carry a wider variety of gaming systems have by in-large larger players who play their own games such as Magic the Gathering and don't play anything else, those stores must cater for a wider audience, while GW caters for GW products only, any other claim over the amount of table is disingenuous to GW.
Lol, no. If an independent store has 20 tables available (with enough miniatures terrain to set up 5-10 of them for 40k) the fact that there are some MTG players using a couple of them doesn't magically make the GW store, where there are 2-3 tables and one of them is permanently reserved for starter set demo games, have better table space. The simple fact is that a lot of independent stores have way more 40k space available than GW's own stores.
3, Claiming that GW frowns upon other figures from other manufacturers is rank ignorance of the facts. Why should a GW store allow a player to play a game in-store with other folks figures, you can not play Magic the Gathering with Pokémon cards, to raise that as an issue is again disingenuous to GW. Also if GW are sponsoring that non GW hobby store's league then they will abide by GW rules, I dare you next time to use Pokémon cards in your next Magic the Gathering game and see how far that get's you.
Nobody is disputing the fact that GW has a good reason to ban non-GW products from their stores. But I, as a customer, do not care about what is best for the store's profits, I care about what is best for my gaming experience. And I have a choice between a GW store where I can only use GW models, or an independent store where I can use the same GW models and I can use non-GW models. The independent store is clearly providing a superior service in this area.
Also, GW doesn't sponsor local store events and does not have any rules that must be followed.
GW store employees are there to seel product, this actually keeps the store running, that is called business that unfortunately you lack an understanding of.
And yet there are plenty of independent store owners who don't act like used car salesmen and still make a profit.
5, When was the last time you or anyone else that complains about GW ever stepped into a store totally dedicated to Warmachine and that it is operated by PP, as far as I know GW is the only games manufacturer that operates it's own stores as well as using independent stockist, if they aren't then inform me.
What's your point? The fact that GW throws away money on an attempt to pretend that their products are a self-contained GW™ Hobby™ instead of part of the larger tabletop wargaming hobby does not mean that I, as a customer, am somehow missing something because other companies don't operate their own stores. GW's own stores add nothing to my experience as a gamer or customer, if they all disappeared overnight I wouldn't shed a single tear. I would just continue to buy and play games at the local independent stores and hardly even notice GW's departure from the retail market.
I think a lot of generalizations about FLGS are being made which glamorizes them. It is like we are comparing the Best FLGS in the US to the worst GW store.
*Some FLGS have 8-20 tables? That's cool... Oh you can only wargame on them Tuesday nights from 7-9pm and Saturday one Saturday a month and that Saturday is an 'organized play' event which usually costs money and is an all-day commitment? Not all FLGS have unlimited open gaming, all the time. The sad truth is Wargaming doesn't 'pay the bills' and often gets relegated in pecking order to a lower rung.
*Ok, so you have 8-20 tables... Let's say you have open gaming with no restrictions!!! Half those tables are full of MTG and other card games. You have that RPG group in the corner taking up two tables. You have a few board gamers. So out of 20 tables you are down to 6 for wargaming. Ooops, now of the 14 people there to wargame, 6 play 40k, 6 play warmachine and 2 play Deadzone. If you show up to a store with all of your models for all of your games, you are set. I know I don't. One army/gaming system is a handful. So now the 'massive amount of choice' actually hampers me as now I have less opponents, less space, less table if I don't come prepared to play everything. If I was in 'RPG or Boardgame mode, where the materials basically consist of 'the board game and me' I could easily play any system and have fun with no real prep. Wargames are not like that.
*Ok... So Used Car salesmen and 'looking down' on my models for not being GW models is annoying. Know what is also annoying? A Store owner who takes mental calculations of what he knows people have bought through him and knows what 'internet bitz' he doesn't sell. I would rather play with my GW models guilt-free with a minor car salesman schtick than get the 3rd degree of 'where did you buy those models' and 'we don't sell those here, why didn't you ask me to order them?' or 'You know Kickstarters are killing the FLGS!'
I have had great experiences at both GW and FLGS. I have had bad experiences at both GW and FLGS. But GW stores have provided an excellent services to me over my 20 years of gaming and was a cornerstone of service to me when FLGS were failing (and still today are failing) to fulfill my needs.
*I mainly collect 40k, don't play magic, dislike Warmachine and play board games/RPG games at people's houses or meet ups. I know if I go to a GW, I can get 40k play.
*While I have a few models which I don't take to GW stores, most GWs I have gone to have been fine about 3rd party bitz. I don't make a big deal about them and don't bring total replacement models, and no one complains. The simple fact they know I have dropped coin on GW products keeps them off my back. (and honestly I never found the hard sell bothersome because I have social skills and don't find it a burden) I have honestly gotten more flak for using internet-bitz which the store doesn't carry from FLGS than I ever have from GW stores.
*GW bunkers are great. Lots of space. Even my smaller GWs have 6-8 tables. I don't have to plan via a club board to meet at 6 pm on a tuesday to get a game with one of the other people only to show up to see he started another game with someone. I don't have to deal with condescending Warmachine people looking to have a turf war and talking about how the gamer pool is Zero-sum and playing 40k is a direct attack on them. I don't have to deal with MTG people asking the owner to tell us to move. I don't have to go game on tuesday night or not at all. I say 'hey, I am free, let me go get my stuff, go to GW and game, then go home. DONE.
Not all GWs are bad or 'a false lie to indoctrinate players'. GW stores do work for many people and they are perfectly happy. You also have to realize that not all FLGS are good, and that they are rare and not super common. I have been fortunate to have multiple 'good' GW stores near me and in stints, good FLGS. To have decades of personal experience dismissed by fictional narratives of the perfect FLGS and how it beats the fictional narrative of the demonized GW store makes this whole thread seem disingenuous and yet another example of 'GW Festivus where people can re-air old grievances.
No one has tried to make the point that ALL GW stores are bad. You are the first person to mention it. The argument has been made that they can be over valued by their clientele.
Also ,you're voicing your annoyance and attempting to rebut generalized, hyperbolic complaints about GW stores with generalized, hyperbolic complaints of your own about theoretical gaming shop scenarios.
Not saying that you don't have a point, or merit to your argument, but that how you stated your defense of GW stores came across as hypocritical.
So basically some of the arguments is that a GW store caters to GW products, therefore is better than an FLGS that caters to a variety of tastes because you can play on a Friday without being told there's no room because of FNM?
WayneTheGame wrote: So basically some of the arguments is that a GW store caters to GW products, therefore is better than an FLGS that caters to a variety of tastes because you can play on a Friday without being told there's no room because of FNM?
Not saying it is 'better' just saying it doesn't feed into a conspiracy of false value and indoctrination...
A FLGS with 20 tables and 40 active players does me Zero good if I want to go there on Friday night and play 40k and can't get a game because there are no 40k opponents there or 'tabletop gaming' is another night and table usage is reserved for other games.
So for one person who prizes 'variety' because they like a ton of stuff and bring a ton of stuff with them to play, another person may see that 'access to variety' as a bad thing due to what they want out of a gaming session. For them, a GW store might be exactly what they need.
The premise of the OP relies on the concept that there is only one 'true way' to enjoy gaming, and doesn't accept different people want different things and what is a good value and useful service to one person may not be good for another. I think a lot of people do get true value out of GW's retail outlets. I think others get true value out of FLGS. Some people may not get value out of either. I have gotten a lot of value out of gaming in GW stores over 20+ years, and I don't feel like I was lied to, indoctrinated or losing out with a false value during any of that time. If I want to play 40k, it was often not just the best choice but a quality choice of venue to do it in and kept me playing, and convinced me to 'pay where I play'.
One size never fits all, but the idea that one size can never fit any because FLGS are always better, I just don't see it.
A FLGS with 20 tables and 40 active players does me Zero good if I want to go there on Friday night and play 40k and can't get a game because there are no 40k opponents there or 'tabletop gaming' is another night and table usage is reserved for other games.
Very true, but with GW moving towards the one-man model and reduced opening hours you will probably find that it's closed on a Friday* night so you can't play any games.
GW stores used to be great for getting GW games in, but they've seriously cut back on that. Even in Warhammer World it's hard to just drop in and get a pick up game unless you're at an event.
*At least here Thursday is late nights, all other nights it closes at 6pm. My FLGS (with 3x as many tables) is open til 10/11pm every night.
The premise of the OP relies on the concept that there is only one 'true way' to enjoy gaming, and doesn't accept different people want different things and what is a good value and useful service to one person may not be good for another.
As the OP, I call shenanigans on your statement. You are either missing the point or being deliberately misleading.
Hulksmash wrote: ****Disclaimer - This is for the US only. I assume GW in the UK works similarly but only know 100% for sure this is the US Policy****
GW Stores are for recruiting this has been the case since at least 2001. The only stores based around regular gamers were the Battle Bunkers. First they get new hobbyists into warhammer or 40k and then the purpose is then to shift the newly recruited people out to FLGS's. It's up to the FLGS and the GW employee though to make this relationship work.
I think that is a doomed plan from the start. What incentive does the FLGS have to take on the maintenance of the new customer? The GW store has likely already sold him his rule books and pulled out all of his initial investment of models, then passes him off to the FLGS to game at. The FLGS now has to eat the overhead costs associated with this player without any associated sales from him/her. The FLGS has to hope that the new player stays within the game -and- wants to expand the army -and- wants to expand it from the limited availablity of models can sell. Hopefully its a third tactical squad and not a couple Direct Only special characters.
Completely disagree.
The smart FLGS creates a home for the Wargamer. GW stores don't offer a discount, so the FLGS isn't competing with them on price (though they do compete with online retailers). The FLGS just has to generate enough loyalty that the gamer will come to them when they want too...
-buy hobby supplies (paint, dice, flock etc)
-Start a new army
-Move to a new game
-Add units to their army. (yes I realize that some units are only orderable)
-Buy terrain
-Buy the new edition, codex, etc.
-Play in a tournament
-etc, etc.
The FLGS has EVERY incentive to maintain the new customer. It simply requires having a longer term view of the customer as a "Gamer" and not just a "GW newbie who already bought their army". My favorite FLGS is my favorite because they carry alot of non-GW stuff. However, GW product still occupies a larger part of the store than any other maker (reaper is a close second) is located at the front of the store, and they still have alot of GW games played in their gaming area during the week.
And this is a store with at least 3 GW stores in a 20 mile radius, and one that's located in the nearby super-Mega-Mall that's only 7 miles away. Yet the FLGS still thrives.
It seems to me that you don't realize how hard it can be for a gameing store to keep profitable. Many can't offer the same deep discount online retailers offer.
War hammer games aren't even the bread winner that other products are.
Lockark wrote: It seems to me that you don't realize how hard it can be for a gameing store to keep profitable. Many can't offer the same deep discount online retailers offer.
This is true, and why IMHO a game store has to offer something beyond just discounts, and by that I mean something more than "We have tables to play on". I need a reason to buy things at 10% off from my local store and wait for their distributor to get things in stock when I can get them for 30% off, low or free shipping and have them guaranteed in stock and delivered in a week if I buy online.
nkelsch wrote: *Ok, so you have 8-20 tables... Let's say you have open gaming with no restrictions!!! Half those tables are full of MTG and other card games. You have that RPG group in the corner taking up two tables. You have a few board gamers. So out of 20 tables you are down to 6 for wargaming. Ooops, now of the 14 people there to wargame, 6 play 40k, 6 play warmachine and 2 play Deadzone.
So you have 6 players for 40k, and enough tables for 3 games. How exactly is that worse than a GW store where you have 10 players for 40k but only 2 tables available, and the store closes at 8pm so forget about having time to play a second game unless you spend a whole weekend day camped in the store hoping to get a turn? The simple fact is that at a decent independent store even being stuck in the back corner on the leftover tables still gives you more gaming opportunities than a GW store.
*Ok... So Used Car salesmen and 'looking down' on my models for not being GW models is annoying. Know what is also annoying? A Store owner who takes mental calculations of what he knows people have bought through him and knows what 'internet bitz' he doesn't sell. I would rather play with my GW models guilt-free with a minor car salesman schtick than get the 3rd degree of 'where did you buy those models' and 'we don't sell those here, why didn't you ask me to order them?' or 'You know Kickstarters are killing the FLGS!'
IOW, let's just assume that the independent store owner is TFG while the GW employee is an amazing guy? Why not instead assume that both are the same kind of person, in which case if you play in the GW store you can expect the same criticism of "internet bits" and might even be told to put away your non-GW models and never bring them again.
*GW bunkers are great. Lots of space. Even my smaller GWs have 6-8 tables.
How many of these stores still exist? The bunkers are all closed, and GW is in the process of replacing all of the old normal-size stores with one-person closets in a random corner of whatever strip mall has the cheapest rent in the area. The local GW store here has three tables, and one of them is permanently reserved for starter set demo games (which really means it's reserved for holding the starter set models while they collect dust, since I've never seen any new customers come into the store). Maybe you're lucky enough to have a larger GW with a lease that hasn't ended yet, but don't expect it to be there much longer.
How many of these stores still exist? The bunkers are all closed, and GW is in the process of replacing all of the old normal-size stores with one-person closets in a random corner of whatever strip mall has the cheapest rent in the area. The local GW store here has three tables, and one of them is permanently reserved for starter set demo games (which really means it's reserved for holding the starter set models while they collect dust, since I've never seen any new customers come into the store). Maybe you're lucky enough to have a larger GW with a lease that hasn't ended yet, but don't expect it to be there much longer.
That 3 tables with 1 permanently reserved is the standard here in Australia and I do believe everywhere else in the world that is a single man store, if you're local store has 6 tables you're the outlier.
Hulksmash wrote: ****Disclaimer - This is for the US only. I assume GW in the UK works similarly but only know 100% for sure this is the US Policy****
GW Stores are for recruiting this has been the case since at least 2001. The only stores based around regular gamers were the Battle Bunkers. First they get new hobbyists into warhammer or 40k and then the purpose is then to shift the newly recruited people out to FLGS's. It's up to the FLGS and the GW employee though to make this relationship work.
I think that is a doomed plan from the start. What incentive does the FLGS have to take on the maintenance of the new customer? The GW store has likely already sold him his rule books and pulled out all of his initial investment of models, then passes him off to the FLGS to game at. The FLGS now has to eat the overhead costs associated with this player without any associated sales from him/her. The FLGS has to hope that the new player stays within the game -and- wants to expand the army -and- wants to expand it from the limited availablity of models can sell. Hopefully its a third tactical squad and not a couple Direct Only special characters.
Completely disagree.
The smart FLGS creates a home for the Wargamer. GW stores don't offer a discount, so the FLGS isn't competing with them on price (though they do compete with online retailers). The FLGS just has to generate enough loyalty that the gamer will come to them when they want too...
-buy hobby supplies (paint, dice, flock etc)
-Start a new army
-Move to a new game
-Add units to their army. (yes I realize that some units are only orderable)
-Buy terrain
-Buy the new edition, codex, etc.
-Play in a tournament
-etc, etc.
The FLGS has EVERY incentive to maintain the new customer. It simply requires having a longer term view of the customer as a "Gamer" and not just a "GW newbie who already bought their army". My favorite FLGS is my favorite because they carry alot of non-GW stuff. However, GW product still occupies a larger part of the store than any other maker (reaper is a close second) is located at the front of the store, and they still have alot of GW games played in their gaming area during the week.
And this is a store with at least 3 GW stores in a 20 mile radius, and one that's located in the nearby super-Mega-Mall that's only 7 miles away. Yet the FLGS still thrives.
It seems to me that you don't realize how hard it can be for a gameing store to keep profitable. Many can't offer the same deep discount online retailers offer.
War hammer games aren't even the bread winner that other products are.
Don't know where you got that from what I said. You've either misread my response (and what I was responding to) or you're putting some words in my mouth.
-Nowhere did I say it was easy to keep profitable
-Never did I say that an FLGS can offer the same discounts as online retailers.
-I acknowledged that the FLGS must compete with online business.
-I never said Warhammer is the bread and butter of a game store. (that usually belongs to CCG's)
However, I stand by my assessment that the FLGS has every incentive to draw the new GW gamer from the GW store (even if they've already bought their first round of stuff) since they will need more, and -as you say- the FLGS needs every sale it can get. Despite at least 3 GW stores in the area, most of the successful game stores in Chicagoland (though not all) have GW products as one of their lines and the oldest and largest features it prominently with prime store space and lots of it. Apparently they see the value in taking GW customers when they can.
