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Shotgun wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
****Disclaimer - This is for the US only. I assume GW in the UK works similarly but only know 100% for sure this is the US Policy****

GW Stores are for recruiting this has been the case since at least 2001. The only stores based around regular gamers were the Battle Bunkers. First they get new hobbyists into warhammer or 40k and then the purpose is then to shift the newly recruited people out to FLGS's. It's up to the FLGS and the GW employee though to make this relationship work.

I think that is a doomed plan from the start. What incentive does the FLGS have to take on the maintenance of the new customer? The GW store has likely already sold him his rule books and pulled out all of his initial investment of models, then passes him off to the FLGS to game at. The FLGS now has to eat the overhead costs associated with this player without any associated sales from him/her. The FLGS has to hope that the new player stays within the game -and- wants to expand the army -and- wants to expand it from the limited availablity of models can sell. Hopefully its a third tactical squad and not a couple Direct Only special characters.

Completely disagree.
The smart FLGS creates a home for the Wargamer. GW stores don't offer a discount, so the FLGS isn't competing with them on price (though they do compete with online retailers). The FLGS just has to generate enough loyalty that the gamer will come to them when they want too...
-buy hobby supplies (paint, dice, flock etc)
-Start a new army
-Move to a new game
-Add units to their army. (yes I realize that some units are only orderable)
-Buy terrain
-Buy the new edition, codex, etc.
-Play in a tournament
-etc, etc.

The FLGS has EVERY incentive to maintain the new customer. It simply requires having a longer term view of the customer as a "Gamer" and not just a "GW newbie who already bought their army". My favorite FLGS is my favorite because they carry alot of non-GW stuff. However, GW product still occupies a larger part of the store than any other maker (reaper is a close second) is located at the front of the store, and they still have alot of GW games played in their gaming area during the week.

And this is a store with at least 3 GW stores in a 20 mile radius, and one that's located in the nearby super-Mega-Mall that's only 7 miles away. Yet the FLGS still thrives.

Herzlos wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
The reason for GW doing their own casting in house (including plastic) has nothing to do with price, its because they are paranoid about Chinese recasters.

It's also about price; it saves them a fortune.

 adamsouza wrote:
I absolutely do not want to turn this thread into another discussion about how GW may or may not fail in the next few years, but you mentioned the $30 single figures.

Forgive me if I can't recall the thread, but it was mentioned that a GW staffer confessed that
1.) Molds for plastics have down in price in recent years
2.) Those $30 single figs GW is fond of lately, pay for themselves on release day

1. I don't think anyone will deny molds have dropped in price significantly; there's even cheaper steel/aluminium for smaller runs. I believe it's now well under $10,000 for a mold, and this is shown by the sheer volume of new companies getting plastic molds done, and even Salute 2013 had an LE mini made in plastic to give away to visitors.

2. I've never heard that but I wouldn't be surprised. Back of envelope calculations show you only need to sell about ~1500 to recover the cost of the mold ($10,000 for mold, $500 for design, 25% of sticker price covering the overheads). That gives about $7 in fixed overheads (design/mold) + maybe $1 in per-unit (the plastic stamp, box, shipping), they sell to stores for $15, which sell to customers for $30. I've no idea how many places sell GW stuff these days, but if there were 500 globally, that's only 3 per shop.

I can speak of this in terms of companies making steel molds inhouse, I clearly remember about 24 years ago reading in Fine Scale Modeller about how Tamiya make their models from scratch to a retail boxed kit.

In 1990 Tamiya costed their steel molds at $2 million USD per steel mold. Why? because the manufacturing costs were due to the fact that at that time all steel molds were made by hand and very time consuming and almost exclusively by hand. How does this relate to GW as of today, it costs GW 50,000 pounds per steel mold to make, why because they are produced with computers and are almost exclusively cut by automated machines and due to modern manufacturing techniques it is vastly cheaper to produce steel molds. The steel molds are designed on a computer and then are sent down to the automated cutting machine and within hours they have steel molds ready to be fitted to the universal injection machines.

I mostly play at my local GW, it seems really big compared to thoose one-man stores. There is three gaming tables(they are pretty small, though) and there is almost always 2-3 employees there at all times, all are really cool people. I could play at a local FLGS but because I don't know anyone there, as opposed to the GW store, I haven't played a match there. Will proabaly start soon though, as my need for more space and more serious opponents may outweigh the cons.

 adamsouza wrote:

I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.

1) Sacramento Ca has one has a good amount of tables

2) GW is trying to sell there Product, would you go into a Ford dealership and see them selling Chevy or GM? No.

3)I play orks and one of the employees came up to me and saw my ramshackled trucks that were not official GW models HE TOOK PICTURES OF THEM! *gasp* He then told me how cool they are and wanted to know what I did to make them.

4) The employee gave me his number so we can play 40k he did not push miniatures or anything he opened up a 7th codex for orks and let me use it when I was there.

I play with about 18 people some close friends others just people I met because we enjoy the same hobby we all have complaints about prices and some funny/stupid lore. But we all agree that GW has changed some of there methods. Like a giant Emperor class cruiser turning around.

What I am sick of is the thousands of posts of "GW is the devil"

 zombiekila707 wrote:
What I am sick of is the thousands of posts of "GW is the devil"

Probably because you don't read posts all the way though before you decide what they are about.

 adamsouza wrote:
Not arguing that. I'm actually a huge fan of most of GW's games. I just think people read too much importance into the value of the official GW Stores.

I disagree. I think GW stores (and Battle Bunkers) are irrelevant. I played in them once or twice, ordered from them a couple times. But there was nothing special about it.

I don't think they matter, and I'm not sure why you're concerned about them. GW tried B&M, and appears to be done with the concept.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Not arguing that. I'm actually a huge fan of most of GW's games. I just think people read too much importance into the value of the official GW Stores.

I disagree. I think GW stores (and Battle Bunkers) are irrelevant. I played in them once or twice, ordered from them a couple times. But there was nothing special about it.

I don't think they matter, and I'm not sure why you're concerned about them. GW tried B&M, and appears to be done with the concept.

You disagree by completely agreeing with me ? I see why you are confused about my concern.

I started this thread because I was noticed that there is a segment of the Dakka Population, who play in GW stores, who misinterpret changes at their local GW shops for changes in the hobby in general.

That's like getting worried when a LHS closes down. Not a concern. I do appreciate the inevitable "Going Out of Business" sales, though.

I'm in a similar mindset to you Adamsouza, my closest GW is roughly 250-300 miles away, although my gaming/hobbying is all done with a local group of simlarly minded wargamers who rent out one of our local 'Scout Halls' if not it is at home in a garage with friends.

We have one independent stockist nearby (about 30ish miles from us) who basically only sells GW products and has no room for gaming tables etc.

I always find it strange how people react to these changes but I've always just pinned it down to my perspective being fairly different as I've never relied on a GW store for anything.

Besides I always thought that GW would always make more money online than they would in actual stores as most stores don't carry full stocks and I've never seen the point of ordering to a store and picking up from there (but then this is because distance is a factor for me.).

Plus the larger gaming/hobby events are always rumoured to pull in huge amounts of money, the likes of games day which I've been to 4-5 times before always seemed to sell well. (Although I don't know how warhammer fest went.)

 zombiekila707 wrote:
2) GW is trying to sell there Product, would you go into a Ford dealership and see them selling Chevy or GM? No.

You completely missed the point there. Nobody expects GW to sell non-GW products in their own stores, the point is that this makes a GW store inferior to an independent store from the point of view of the customer. The GW store sells GW products, the independent store sells the same GW products and also sells a lot of other stuff that you might want to buy. And they might even sell the same GW products at a discount! So there's no reason to even consider going to the GW store.

What I am sick of is the thousands of posts of "GW is the devil"

So am I. I would love it if GW would stop doing things that drive people to post entirely justified "GW sucks" complaints.

 Peregrine wrote:
So there's no reason to even consider gong to the GW store.

And if you don't have a FLGS and only have a local GW?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So there's no reason to even consider gong to the GW store.

And if you don't have a FLGS and only have a local GW?

There is never a good reason to gong a GW Store

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And if you don't have a FLGS and only have a local GW?

Sucks for you. Thankfully this situation rarely exists in the US.

(And if you pay attention to the whole paragraph instead of just taking that one sentence out of context you'll notice that I was talking about a comparison between a GW store and an independent store, which implies the existence of both.)

 Peregrine wrote:
Sucks for you.

Picking sentences out of context is fun though

I must admit though if I had the luxury of choosing between a FLGS and a GW, I must admit I'd probably choose a FLGS, not that GW stores are terrible or anything, but logic applies that you'd go to the place that supplies all of your hobby/gaming needs and you inevitibly go to the cheaper option when you have the choice (which often means not GW ).

Also from what I've heard about UK GW stores, is that most don't provide gaming space beyond introductory games. (That may not be the case everywhere, just from what I've read.)

I have both a local GW and more than one independent gaming retailer within a reasonable distance of me.

In the end I intentionally made a retailer secondary to my hobby. I got together with enough like minded people and we rent a room in a community centre once a month. As well we also go to a monthly board game night and bring drop cloths and terrain and play there two. In addition to that we play in eachother's homes and at local events/miniconventions that happen a few times a year. The end result is that we play at least once a week and everyone buys from wherever they want with no "pay where you play" pressure.

To get back to the point of the original post though:

 adamsouza wrote:
GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.

GW does indeed try to segment their market place. They want their customers to be ignorant of other options.

I never had a GW store around for the majority of my hobby life. If I criticize GW's attempt to segment their market place and provide a complete package to those ignorant of better options, it is because it is bad for the customer. You end up with stupid things like paying $10 for 5ml of plastic glue when you can get vastly superior glue for less money by going with Ambroid ProWeld, Plastruct Cement, Tamiya thin, Testors thin, etc.,.

GW segmenting their market allows them to wring as much money out of each ignorant customer as possible.

 adamsouza wrote:
Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.

Personally, I've never stepped into an official GW Store, It's not intentional, there has never been one within a reasonable drive. I don't think there has ever been one in my home state for that matter. (Just googled it, it's a 3 hour and 30 mintue drive to the nearest store in Greenwich Village, New York) I learned about 40K in a local comic book shop, and started playing in another comic book shop. As a consequence I imagine, I don't see GW Shops as an important part of the hobby. I routinely see the opposite belief held, even if it is not intentional.

When GW cuts back gaming space, staff, stock, etc.. in a GW shop,someone will post about it, with the belief it is iindicative of the health of the hobby, and GW, as a whole.
Closing a GW store is met with echoes of doom and gloom. When there were copies of Space Hulk left on the shelf, Space Hulk was decried a failure because there were copies still on the shelf at the GW store.

To be honest, I guess I can kind of see where the belief comes from, but I just don't buy it.

I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.

I have read this several times and I have an opinion, you have never stepped inside an actual GW store, so in regards you have no first hand knowledge of the seen pertaining to GW stores.

1, You hear stories but have never witnessed anything, you opinion is hearsay and nothing else, blurred by other people's construed facts to suit themselves and you take that on board and your conclusion are baseless without first hand knowledge.

2,GW makes it's decision where to locate their stores with the best information at the time and if that proves disadvantageous they close that store, this is business. Local independent stockists that also carry a wider variety of gaming systems have by in-large larger players who play their own games such as Magic the Gathering and don't play anything else, those stores must cater for a wider audience, while GW caters for GW products only, any other claim over the amount of table is disingenuous to GW.

3, Claiming that GW frowns upon other figures from other manufacturers is rank ignorance of the facts. Why should a GW store allow a player to play a game in-store with other folks figures, you can not play Magic the Gathering with Pokémon cards, to raise that as an issue is again disingenuous to GW. Also if GW are sponsoring that non GW hobby store's league then they will abide by GW rules, I dare you next time to use Pokémon cards in your next Magic the Gathering game and see how far that get's you.

4, GW employees are sale people first and hobbyist second, again to be blunt having never going into a GW store to a first hand account of these people you have no right to make these claims, again you are been disingenuous to both GW and those who staff these stores. I have been in many GW stores and their first love is the hobby who are sales employees, also you lack all credibility. GW store employees are there to seel product, this actually keeps the store running, that is called business that unfortunately you lack an understanding of.

5, When was the last time you or anyone else that complains about GW ever stepped into a store totally dedicated to Warmachine and that it is operated by PP, as far as I know GW is the only games manufacturer that operates it's own stores as well as using independent stockist, if they aren't then inform me.

 Achaylus72 wrote:
I have read this several times and I have an opinion, you have never stepped inside an actual GW store, so in regards you have no first hand knowledge of the seen pertaining to GW stores.

1, You hear stories but have never witnessed anything, you opinion is hearsay and nothing else, blurred by other people's construed facts to suit themselves and you take that on board and your conclusion are baseless without first hand knowledge.

2,GW makes it's decision where to locate their stores with the best information at the time and if that proves disadvantageous they close that store, this is business. Local independent stockists that also carry a wider variety of gaming systems have by in-large larger players who play their own games such as Magic the Gathering and don't play anything else, those stores must cater for a wider audience, while GW caters for GW products only, any other claim over the amount of table is disingenuous to GW.

3, Claiming that GW frowns upon other figures from other manufacturers is rank ignorance of the facts. Why should a GW store allow a player to play a game in-store with other folks figures, you can not play Magic the Gathering with Pokémon cards, to raise that as an issue is again disingenuous to GW. Also if GW are sponsoring that non GW hobby store's league then they will abide by GW rules, I dare you next time to use Pokémon cards in your next Magic the Gathering game and see how far that get's you.

4, GW employees are sale people first and hobbyist second, again to be blunt having never going into a GW store to a first hand account of these people you have no right to make these claims, again you are been disingenuous to both GW and those who staff these stores. I have been in many GW stores and their first love is the hobby who are sales employees, also you lack all credibility. GW store employees are there to seel product, this actually keeps the store running, that is called business that unfortunately you lack an understanding of.

5, When was the last time you or anyone else that complains about GW ever stepped into a store totally dedicated to Warmachine and that it is operated by PP, as far as I know GW is the only games manufacturer that operates it's own stores as well as using independent stockist, if they aren't then inform me.

I have been to a few GW stores so let me take a crack at this.

You've claimed that other stores cater to more games so they need more tables as if a GW store somehow doesn't?
Its irrelevant what games are carried. If I want a game I'm better off going to my FLGS, it has more tables and because of that there are more opportunities to play. End of discussion. More tables are better regardless of games carried.

Your pokemon-magic analogy is strange, a model with CH shoulderpads is still clearly a model of a space marine with no effect on the rules of the game...
Ignoring that though we're back to you arguing that GW don't have a reason to let you play non-GW model in their store. Fine, I accept that, but its still irrelevant if I want to game. The FLGS wins again as I now can't play at GW even if I wanted to.

FLGS staff are there to sell product too, I don't know why you would think otherwise, but lets ignore that. The issue with GW being salesmen first is going to vary from area to area and store to store but it is a fact that they have very high targets to meet and that in a single man store they are going to, out of necessity, have to focus on selling over hobby related things. Again there are good reasons for this but they are irrelevant because I, as a customer, am getting a negative experience from it.

As for the concept of a Warmachine store, it'll never happen as the cost of GWs retail chain is currently killing them while other games are experiencing significant growth while working with FLGSs rather than against them. If other companies did thought they very well might allow things like aftermarket heads and shoulderpads. Hell, mantic don't sell a generic human line for kings of war because there are so many historicals out there to use, and for a while there they where encourage avatars of war heroes be used in their game.

The GW is strong in this one

 Achaylus72 wrote:


3, Claiming that GW frowns upon other figures from other manufacturers is rank ignorance of the facts. Why should a GW store allow a player to play a game in-store with other folks figures, you can not play Magic the Gathering with Pokémon cards, to raise that as an issue is again disingenuous to GW. Also if GW are sponsoring that non GW hobby store's league then they will abide by GW rules, I dare you next time to use Pokémon cards in your next Magic the Gathering game and see how far that get's you.

5, When was the last time you or anyone else that complains about GW ever stepped into a store totally dedicated to Warmachine and that it is operated by PP, as far as I know GW is the only games manufacturer that operates it's own stores as well as using independent stockist, if they aren't then inform me.

The card example makes no sense as the cards have rules and cannot for example be exchanged by playing cards, Wargames on the other hand, the figure is just a representation of a stat in the rulebook and exchanging it with other figures has no influence on the game play.

GW stores have this rule pure for business reasons, using figures from other companies is lost revenue.

And yes i have ventured into GW stores recently

 Achaylus72 wrote:
I have read this several times and I have an opinion, you have never stepped inside an actual GW store, so in regards you have no first hand knowledge of the seen pertaining to GW stores.

“Its like a finger pointing away to the moon. Dont concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.”
― Bruce Lee, Striking Thoughts: Bruce Lee's Wisdom for Daily Living

My thread is about the mind set of some people who play in GW stores placing too much value on them, not the stores themselves.

1, You hear stories but have never witnessed anything, you opinion is hearsay and nothing else, blurred by other people's construed facts to suit themselves and you take that on board and your conclusion are baseless without first hand knowledge.

Your idea that you can't form an opinion without first hand knowledge is ludicrous.

I don't have to be a heroin addict to know being a heroin addict sucks.

2,GW makes it's decision where to locate their stores with the best information at the time and if that proves disadvantageous they close that store, this is business. Local independent stockists that also carry a wider variety of gaming systems have by in-large larger players who play their own games such as Magic the Gathering and don't play anything else, those stores must cater for a wider audience, while GW caters for GW products only, any other claim over the amount of table is disingenuous to GW.

I'm not entirely certain what the point you are trying to make here in this section.
Are you claiming that GW stores have limited table space because other stores who carry more varied product have more customers ?

3, Claiming that GW frowns upon other figures from other manufacturers is rank ignorance of the facts.

No, it's not. GW frowns on you using compatible models from other manufacturers because of the perceived loss of income. There is no ignorance on my part on this.

Why should a GW store allow a player to play a game in-store with other folks figures you can not play Magic the Gathering with Pokémon cards, to raise that as an issue is again disingenuous to GW.

You can not play MTG with Pokemon cards because they are printed pieces of paper with competely incompatble rules and symbols on them.
You can play 40K and Fantasy with miniatures from other manufacturers because the rules are contained in a book and the models are just proxy markers you push around a table to represent your forces in game.

Also if GW are sponsoring that non GW hobby store's league then they will abide by GW rules, I dare you next time to use Pokémon cards in your next Magic the Gathering game and see how far that get's you.

You are being disengenous at this point. Playing MTG with Pokemon cards is much like playing MTG with a normal deck of playing cards. It's mechanically imposible and a terrible analogy for playing GW games with other manufacturers miniatures.

4, GW employees are sale people first and hobbyist second, again to be blunt having never going into a GW store to a first hand account of these people you have no right to make these claims, again you are been disingenuous to both GW and those who staff these stores. I have been in many GW stores and their first love is the hobby who are sales employees, also you lack all credibility.

Applying your own logic, you have no right to make these claims, and again you are been disingenuous. Since you've never met me, or witnessed me making any such claims first hand you are relying on second hand information about me to form conclusions without first hand knowledge.

GW store employees are there to seel product, this actually keeps the store running, that is called business that unfortunately you lack an understanding of.

The first part applies to other gaming shops as well, so I don't understand why you think it's significant enough to point out. The second part is just a hyperbolic insult directed at me.

5, When was the last time you or anyone else that complains about GW ever stepped into a store totally dedicated to Warmachine and that it is operated by PP, as far as I know GW is the only games manufacturer that operates it's own stores as well as using independent stockist, if they aren't then inform me.

So you want me to tell you the last time I stepped into a store that doesn't exist ?

------

The greatest irony of this thread has become the multiple allegations of me being a GW hater. I am usually accused of being a GW Fanboi by people who actually hate GW.

 adamsouza wrote:
The greatest irony of this thread has become the multiple allegations of me being a GW hater. I am usually accused of being a GW Fanboi by people who actually hate GW.

Kinda sucks doesn't it? That's how most people feel about being called 'haters'.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
The greatest irony of this thread has become the multiple allegations of me being a GW hater. I am usually accused of being a GW Fanboi by people who actually hate GW.

Kinda sucks doesn't it? That's how most people feel about being called 'haters'.

Honestly, I find it kind of amusing. I'm waiting for the inevitable comparisons to myself and Hitler.

 Achaylus72 wrote:
Local independent stockists that also carry a wider variety of gaming systems have by in-large larger players who play their own games such as Magic the Gathering and don't play anything else, those stores must cater for a wider audience, while GW caters for GW products only, any other claim over the amount of table is disingenuous to GW.

Lol, no. If an independent store has 20 tables available (with enough miniatures terrain to set up 5-10 of them for 40k) the fact that there are some MTG players using a couple of them doesn't magically make the GW store, where there are 2-3 tables and one of them is permanently reserved for starter set demo games, have better table space. The simple fact is that a lot of independent stores have way more 40k space available than GW's own stores.

3, Claiming that GW frowns upon other figures from other manufacturers is rank ignorance of the facts. Why should a GW store allow a player to play a game in-store with other folks figures, you can not play Magic the Gathering with Pokémon cards, to raise that as an issue is again disingenuous to GW. Also if GW are sponsoring that non GW hobby store's league then they will abide by GW rules, I dare you next time to use Pokémon cards in your next Magic the Gathering game and see how far that get's you.

Nobody is disputing the fact that GW has a good reason to ban non-GW products from their stores. But I, as a customer, do not care about what is best for the store's profits, I care about what is best for my gaming experience. And I have a choice between a GW store where I can only use GW models, or an independent store where I can use the same GW models and I can use non-GW models. The independent store is clearly providing a superior service in this area.

Also, GW doesn't sponsor local store events and does not have any rules that must be followed.

GW store employees are there to seel product, this actually keeps the store running, that is called business that unfortunately you lack an understanding of.

And yet there are plenty of independent store owners who don't act like used car salesmen and still make a profit.

5, When was the last time you or anyone else that complains about GW ever stepped into a store totally dedicated to Warmachine and that it is operated by PP, as far as I know GW is the only games manufacturer that operates it's own stores as well as using independent stockist, if they aren't then inform me.

What's your point? The fact that GW throws away money on an attempt to pretend that their products are a self-contained GW™ Hobby™ instead of part of the larger tabletop wargaming hobby does not mean that I, as a customer, am somehow missing something because other companies don't operate their own stores. GW's own stores add nothing to my experience as a gamer or customer, if they all disappeared overnight I wouldn't shed a single tear. I would just continue to buy and play games at the local independent stores and hardly even notice GW's departure from the retail market.

I think a lot of generalizations about FLGS are being made which glamorizes them. It is like we are comparing the Best FLGS in the US to the worst GW store.

*Some FLGS have 8-20 tables? That's cool... Oh you can only wargame on them Tuesday nights from 7-9pm and Saturday one Saturday a month and that Saturday is an 'organized play' event which usually costs money and is an all-day commitment? Not all FLGS have unlimited open gaming, all the time. The sad truth is Wargaming doesn't 'pay the bills' and often gets relegated in pecking order to a lower rung.

*Ok, so you have 8-20 tables... Let's say you have open gaming with no restrictions!!! Half those tables are full of MTG and other card games. You have that RPG group in the corner taking up two tables. You have a few board gamers. So out of 20 tables you are down to 6 for wargaming. Ooops, now of the 14 people there to wargame, 6 play 40k, 6 play warmachine and 2 play Deadzone. If you show up to a store with all of your models for all of your games, you are set. I know I don't. One army/gaming system is a handful. So now the 'massive amount of choice' actually hampers me as now I have less opponents, less space, less table if I don't come prepared to play everything. If I was in 'RPG or Boardgame mode, where the materials basically consist of 'the board game and me' I could easily play any system and have fun with no real prep. Wargames are not like that.

*Ok... So Used Car salesmen and 'looking down' on my models for not being GW models is annoying. Know what is also annoying? A Store owner who takes mental calculations of what he knows people have bought through him and knows what 'internet bitz' he doesn't sell. I would rather play with my GW models guilt-free with a minor car salesman schtick than get the 3rd degree of 'where did you buy those models' and 'we don't sell those here, why didn't you ask me to order them?' or 'You know Kickstarters are killing the FLGS!'

I have had great experiences at both GW and FLGS. I have had bad experiences at both GW and FLGS. But GW stores have provided an excellent services to me over my 20 years of gaming and was a cornerstone of service to me when FLGS were failing (and still today are failing) to fulfill my needs.

*I mainly collect 40k, don't play magic, dislike Warmachine and play board games/RPG games at people's houses or meet ups. I know if I go to a GW, I can get 40k play.
*While I have a few models which I don't take to GW stores, most GWs I have gone to have been fine about 3rd party bitz. I don't make a big deal about them and don't bring total replacement models, and no one complains. The simple fact they know I have dropped coin on GW products keeps them off my back. (and honestly I never found the hard sell bothersome because I have social skills and don't find it a burden) I have honestly gotten more flak for using internet-bitz which the store doesn't carry from FLGS than I ever have from GW stores.
*GW bunkers are great. Lots of space. Even my smaller GWs have 6-8 tables. I don't have to plan via a club board to meet at 6 pm on a tuesday to get a game with one of the other people only to show up to see he started another game with someone. I don't have to deal with condescending Warmachine people looking to have a turf war and talking about how the gamer pool is Zero-sum and playing 40k is a direct attack on them. I don't have to deal with MTG people asking the owner to tell us to move. I don't have to go game on tuesday night or not at all. I say 'hey, I am free, let me go get my stuff, go to GW and game, then go home. DONE.

Not all GWs are bad or 'a false lie to indoctrinate players'. GW stores do work for many people and they are perfectly happy. You also have to realize that not all FLGS are good, and that they are rare and not super common. I have been fortunate to have multiple 'good' GW stores near me and in stints, good FLGS. To have decades of personal experience dismissed by fictional narratives of the perfect FLGS and how it beats the fictional narrative of the demonized GW store makes this whole thread seem disingenuous and yet another example of 'GW Festivus where people can re-air old grievances.

No one has tried to make the point that ALL GW stores are bad. You are the first person to mention it. The argument has been made that they can be over valued by their clientele.

Also ,you're voicing your annoyance and attempting to rebut generalized, hyperbolic complaints about GW stores with generalized, hyperbolic complaints of your own about theoretical gaming shop scenarios.

Not saying that you don't have a point, or merit to your argument, but that how you stated your defense of GW stores came across as hypocritical.

So basically some of the arguments is that a GW store caters to GW products, therefore is better than an FLGS that caters to a variety of tastes because you can play on a Friday without being told there's no room because of FNM?

WayneTheGame wrote:
So basically some of the arguments is that a GW store caters to GW products, therefore is better than an FLGS that caters to a variety of tastes because you can play on a Friday without being told there's no room because of FNM?

Not saying it is 'better' just saying it doesn't feed into a conspiracy of false value and indoctrination...

A FLGS with 20 tables and 40 active players does me Zero good if I want to go there on Friday night and play 40k and can't get a game because there are no 40k opponents there or 'tabletop gaming' is another night and table usage is reserved for other games.

So for one person who prizes 'variety' because they like a ton of stuff and bring a ton of stuff with them to play, another person may see that 'access to variety' as a bad thing due to what they want out of a gaming session. For them, a GW store might be exactly what they need.

The premise of the OP relies on the concept that there is only one 'true way' to enjoy gaming, and doesn't accept different people want different things and what is a good value and useful service to one person may not be good for another. I think a lot of people do get true value out of GW's retail outlets. I think others get true value out of FLGS. Some people may not get value out of either. I have gotten a lot of value out of gaming in GW stores over 20+ years, and I don't feel like I was lied to, indoctrinated or losing out with a false value during any of that time. If I want to play 40k, it was often not just the best choice but a quality choice of venue to do it in and kept me playing, and convinced me to 'pay where I play'.

One size never fits all, but the idea that one size can never fit any because FLGS are always better, I just don't see it.

nkelsch wrote:

A FLGS with 20 tables and 40 active players does me Zero good if I want to go there on Friday night and play 40k and can't get a game because there are no 40k opponents there or 'tabletop gaming' is another night and table usage is reserved for other games.

Very true, but with GW moving towards the one-man model and reduced opening hours you will probably find that it's closed on a Friday* night so you can't play any games.
GW stores used to be great for getting GW games in, but they've seriously cut back on that. Even in Warhammer World it's hard to just drop in and get a pick up game unless you're at an event.

*At least here Thursday is late nights, all other nights it closes at 6pm. My FLGS (with 3x as many tables) is open til 10/11pm every night.

nkelsch wrote:

The premise of the OP relies on the concept that there is only one 'true way' to enjoy gaming, and doesn't accept different people want different things and what is a good value and useful service to one person may not be good for another.

As the OP, I call shenanigans on your statement. You are either missing the point or being deliberately misleading.

 Eilif wrote:

Shotgun wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
****Disclaimer - This is for the US only. I assume GW in the UK works similarly but only know 100% for sure this is the US Policy****

GW Stores are for recruiting this has been the case since at least 2001. The only stores based around regular gamers were the Battle Bunkers. First they get new hobbyists into warhammer or 40k and then the purpose is then to shift the newly recruited people out to FLGS's. It's up to the FLGS and the GW employee though to make this relationship work.

I think that is a doomed plan from the start. What incentive does the FLGS have to take on the maintenance of the new customer? The GW store has likely already sold him his rule books and pulled out all of his initial investment of models, then passes him off to the FLGS to game at. The FLGS now has to eat the overhead costs associated with this player without any associated sales from him/her. The FLGS has to hope that the new player stays within the game -and- wants to expand the army -and- wants to expand it from the limited availablity of models can sell. Hopefully its a third tactical squad and not a couple Direct Only special characters.

Completely disagree.
The smart FLGS creates a home for the Wargamer. GW stores don't offer a discount, so the FLGS isn't competing with them on price (though they do compete with online retailers). The FLGS just has to generate enough loyalty that the gamer will come to them when they want too...
-buy hobby supplies (paint, dice, flock etc)
-Start a new army
-Move to a new game
-Add units to their army. (yes I realize that some units are only orderable)
-Buy terrain
-Buy the new edition, codex, etc.
-Play in a tournament
-etc, etc.

The FLGS has EVERY incentive to maintain the new customer. It simply requires having a longer term view of the customer as a "Gamer" and not just a "GW newbie who already bought their army". My favorite FLGS is my favorite because they carry alot of non-GW stuff. However, GW product still occupies a larger part of the store than any other maker (reaper is a close second) is located at the front of the store, and they still have alot of GW games played in their gaming area during the week.

And this is a store with at least 3 GW stores in a 20 mile radius, and one that's located in the nearby super-Mega-Mall that's only 7 miles away. Yet the FLGS still thrives.

It seems to me that you don't realize how hard it can be for a gameing store to keep profitable. Many can't offer the same deep discount online retailers offer.

War hammer games aren't even the bread winner that other products are.

 Lockark wrote:
It seems to me that you don't realize how hard it can be for a gameing store to keep profitable. Many can't offer the same deep discount online retailers offer.

This is true, and why IMHO a game store has to offer something beyond just discounts, and by that I mean something more than "We have tables to play on". I need a reason to buy things at 10% off from my local store and wait for their distributor to get things in stock when I can get them for 30% off, low or free shipping and have them guaranteed in stock and delivered in a week if I buy online.