I'd like the MODs to present a ruling on this, as I am noticing an uptick in playful euphemisms being used for a specific racial group that strike me as offensive, but seems to generate no warnings or other criticism from the moderation team. So, in the interest of being clear about where the boundaries of accepted racism are established on Dakka Dakka, I was hoping the MOD team could confer on this topic and provide a ruling.

When does using a racial descriptor cross a line?

White, black, yellow, brown and red are all descriptors for skin color and are usually paired with other descriptors to identify a type of person: e.g. white-guy, brown-woman, black-dude, ect.

Nothing wrong with that, as far as I can tell. But it gets a little tricky when other terms are added.

Case in point: Whitey McWhiteBoy.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/619902.page#7318938

Justification for such a term is given here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/619902.page#7319920

Then the term reappears later in the thread with no MOD comments, even though MODs have been in the thread, so the appearance given by the lack of moderation is that this term is acceptable:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/619902.page#7319920

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/619902.page#7342467

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/619902.page#7342467

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/619902.page#7342467

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360/619902.page#7342566

So, Dakka MODs, what is the official stance on this? If Whitey McWhiteBoy is an acceptable descriptor for a white male character are other fanciful descriptors okay for other races/genders? I ask because "Mick" is a racist term associated with Irish folk. So why is Whitey McWhiteboy acceptable? If we can use an openly racist white term can other races enjoy the same privielge?

Is Brownie-Taco-Eater acceptable? How about Blackie-Watermelon-Face?

For the white ladies how about Whitey-McMammories?

I am being intentionally outrageous because this double standard is disgusting and I am surprised it is being allowed on Dakka which usually offers a fair treatment for its various member demographics. This, however, is offensive. As a white person of Scots/Irish decent I see no useful purpose for these playfully racist terms directed only at white people. Surely a discussion about race should leave out unnecessary descriptors that do nothing more than further racial stereotypes. Whitey McWhiteBoy (or Scruffy McWhiteBoy) are unnecessary. You can just say white.

To the MODS: Please clarify Dakka's position on language like what I posted above because its use is spreading and I see this as a problematic shift in behavior on these forums.

There is no hard and fast rule. Obviously, context is very important when it comes to potentially offensive terms. Dakka Dakka has human moderators because this kind of thing requires case-by-case judgment (also we are probably cheaper than robots). Generally speaking, if you think it might legitimately offend someone (for example, if you think you might have to clear it with a mod) then it is best not to post it at all.

As a white guy and a racist (or so I've been told), I love Whitey McWhiteBoy.

The other examples DarkTraveller777 gives above strike me as quite clear: "Brownie-Taco-Eater" and "Blackie-Watermelon-Face" are clearly meant to reinforce established racist stereotypes about historically marginalized races. "Whitey-McMammories" serves to reduce a woman's worth to her breasts. In my judgment, these are all clearly meant to offend, that's the only purpose they serve, and I would certainly give warning/suspensions for posting terms like this.

By contrast, "White McWhiteBoy" doesn't seem to accomplish anything either directly or by implication except to point out that someone is white, albeit in a facetious manner. Now, it could hypothetically be deployed in an offensive manner. Like a butter knife, even such a dull term could be used as a weapon. I do not think it is offensive in and of itself, however. For example -- the posts DarkTraveller777 calls out seem to be lampooning the trend in AAA video games to employ the same stubbly white male protagonist again and again. But it is not being used to insult a race of people.

It's a difficult case as anything referring to whites isn't loaded with a history of racism.

I'd go with you though. If someone uses the term "Whitey McWhiteBoy" then he clearly uses it in an offensive way, be it to mock other people at the very least; which ultimatively is offensive again and violates rule #1.

I'd PM any of the mods involved in the thread or even yakface / legoburner about it if you're really concerned about it, albeit they usually have a keen eye on the Nuts and Bolts section and frequently reply to user pleas.

The official stance is that you know when you cross the line, so don't.

People who do will get moderated.

I would assume that "Whitey McWhiteBoy" was offensive.

I think it has something to with privilege, which one should check daily apparently. So it's sort of like diabetes.

Scruffy WhiteDude is a pretty good description of the type of videogame character like Drake out of Drake's Whatever (can't remember the name of the games.) He is a scruffy white dude and there are many similar characters in other video games.

I have seen the term used in articles outside the confines of DakkaDakka. It is a fairly common trope.

Whitey McWhiteBoy does nothing to describe a character except emphasise his whiteness and, in terms of using the term 'boy', to diminish his adult identity. Think about why black servants and slaves used to be called 'boy'.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Scruffy WhiteDude is a pretty good description of the type of videogame character like Drake out of Drake's Whatever (can't remember the name of the games.) He is a scruffy white dude and there are many similar characters in other video games.

I have seen the term used in articles outside the confines of DakkaDakka. It is a fairly common trope.

Whitey McWhiteBoy does nothing to describe a character except emphasise his whiteness and, in terms of using the term 'boy', to diminish his adult identity. Think about why black servants and slaves used to be called 'boy'.

What if 'boy' was replaced by 'guy'? Would the over-emphasis on the skin colour still be crossing the line, or would this just make it more of a murky area to moderate?

Whitey McWhite Person.
Whitey McWhite Chap.
Jewish McJew Dude.
Dusky McBlack Guy.
Pinky McHomo Man.

It is pretty clear that when the main descriptor is doubling up on some kind of ethnic identity, there could be a tinge of racism.

There is a big difference between pointing out that race is an issue regarding a given topic and marginalizing people because of race. All these McWhitey phrases in the thread in question are clearly commenting on the idea that the majority of extremely generic AAA video game protagonists are white. That is to say, race is an issue when it comes to designing a protagonist for these games. Calling such characters "Scruffy McWhitey" or whatever is an attempt to call out that they lack characterization beyond their race (and gender and poor shaving habits). But such a phrase does not demean white people, either by evoking a history of marginalization of white people or associated negative stereotypes that seek to marginalize or reinforce the historical marginalization of white people (if there was such a thing). That said, it's also obvious that someone could use phrases like "Whitey McWhiteBoy" to insult others purely/primarily on the basis of race and that would be racism. That kind of thing merits correction on this site.

This does seem like an awfully hairy matter.

Do you often have to deal with borderline cases where it's difficult to decide if it breaks rule #1 or not?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do you often have to deal with borderline cases where it's difficult to decide if it breaks rule #1 or not?

Speaking for myself, it is very rare to see a borderline racism issue on here. But it has happened once or twice and in those situations I post about it in the moderator forum and look for how other mods see the issue.

This isn't just something that happens to Whites either. For example, the Magic Negro, which yeah, contains the N-Bomb in its name, but is a widely accepted term among critics for a racist stereotype. In fact, the use of a the word is purposeful, to call out how old fashioned and racist the idea itself is.

Calling that group of characters colorful terms like White McWhiteDude is the opposite of racist. It's using tongue in cheek to point out an absurdity.

Another example would be characters with names like Black Dynamite, which indicate that racial empowerment is a central theme.

Exactly. Blaxploitation is an entire genre dedicated to this.

 LordofHats wrote:
This isn't just something that happens to Whites either. For example, the Magic Negro, which yeah, contains the N-Bomb in its name, but is a widely accepted term among critics for a racist stereotype. In fact, the use of a the word is purposeful, to call out how old fashioned and racist the idea itself is.

Calling that group of characters colorful terms like White McWhiteDude is the opposite of racist. It's using tongue in cheek to point out an absurdity.

I am not seeing the connection at all between the Magical Negro trope and the "colorful" naming conventions used for Caucasians in the thread I linked to.

I am at a loss why there needs to be colorful descriptors for one race and not for others in any conversation, let alone one about video games.

 Manchu wrote:
There is a big difference between pointing out that race is an issue regarding a given topic and marginalizing people because of race. All these McWhitey phrases in the thread in question are clearly commenting on the idea that the majority of extremely generic AAA video game protagonists are white. That is to say, race is an issue when it comes to designing a protagonist for these games. Calling such characters "Scruffy McWhitey" or whatever is an attempt to call out that they lack characterization beyond their race (and gender and poor shaving habits). But such a phrase does not demean white people, either by evoking a history of marginalization of white people or associated negative stereotypes that seek to marginalize or reinforce the historical marginalization of white people (if there was such a thing). That said, it's also obvious that someone could use phrases like "Whitey McWhiteBoy" to insult others purely/primarily on the basis of race and that would be racism. That kind of thing merits correction on this site.

And again, why not just use "white" when commenting on a Caucasian's race? The need to add some flair to a racial term implies a need by the poster(s) to take a dig at a particular group, otherwise the base term would be sufficient.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The official stance is that you know when you cross the line, so don't.

People who do will get moderated.

I would assume that "Whitey McWhiteBoy" was offensive.

Also - if you said it to someone in person, would the odds of them punching you in the face be statistically high? If so...

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I am not seeing the connection at all between the Magical Negro trope and the "colorful" naming conventions used for Caucasians in the thread I linked to.

I know you don't. Otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
And again, why not just use "white" when commenting on a Caucasian's race?

In this case,

 Manchu wrote:
to call out that they lack characterization beyond their race

The idea is, this (genus of) character(s) might as well be called White McWhiteGuy because that's all he is -- he's just a white guy.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

I am at a loss why there needs to be colorful descriptors for one race and not for others in any conversation, let alone one about video games.

I don't see the need for any reference to any skin color unless they are explicitely talked of.

If you see the term being used in an offensive way, PM a mod you trust and he'll look into it

 LordofHats wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I am not seeing the connection at all between the Magical Negro trope and the "colorful" naming conventions used for Caucasians in the thread I linked to.

I know you don't. Otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Ooo what a burn.

So explain it better than dropping a wiki link? How is Whitey McWhiteBoy used in the thread I linked to not racist? Especially when the posters using the term are doing so while lamenting how over used white characters are? The context of that thread does not indicate that the posters were using that term ironically, but rather vindictively to show their frustration.

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
And again, why not just use "white" when commenting on a Caucasian's race?

In this case,

 Manchu wrote:
to call out that they lack characterization beyond their race

The idea is, this (genus of) character(s) might as well be called White McWhiteGuy because that's all he is -- he's just a white guy.

So just call him generic white guy?

Mick is a racist term. Adding additional variations of "white" to describe a white character all the while joining them with a historically racist term (Mc) is racist.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So just call him generic white guy?

Mick is a racist term. Adding additional variations of "white" to describe a white character all the while joining them with a historically racist term (Mc) is racist.

Whitey McWhiteGuy, as used in the thread in question, is a (very) slightly facetious way of criticizing a character (type). It does not demean white people. It does not even evoke stereotypes about white people. And I don't think anyone is evoking the slur "Mick" with the phrase "McWhitey." That's really stretching credibility and makes me wonder if this thread is even in good faith. There is no indication whatsoever of prejudice against Irish or Scottish people in that thread.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So explain it better than dropping a wiki link?

He did:

 LordofHats wrote:
the use of a the word is purposeful, to call out how old fashioned and racist the idea itself is

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
the posters using the term are doing so while lamenting how over used white characters are?

Crucially, they are not arguing or even implying that there is anything inferior about being white. Again, there is a difference between ackonowledging that race is an issue and demeaning/marginalizing people because of race.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So explain it better than dropping a wiki link?

I did explain it. You simply choose not to understand because you'd rather decry how terrible it is being a white guy with all these double standards floating about that don't actually exist.

Especially when the posters using the term are doing so while lamenting how over used white characters are?

Yeah.



Some people might find this has gotten a little annoyingly repetitive.

The context of that thread does not indicate that the posters were using that term ironically, but rather vindictively to show their frustration.

And this says you don't actually understand the context of the thread.

Yeah, I see where this is going.

I am genuinely upset by the term being used, posted as much in the thread and nothing happened. When seeing the term (or variations of it being used days later) I alerted the MODs using the yellow triangle and nothing happened. So, I started this thread, and thanks to you Manchu it looks like yet again, nothing will happen.

Fine. Despite other members agreeing that this is questionable language to use when describing a white person, Manchu is questioning the credibility of this thread. Awesome.

If a discussion on race cannot even grant one group the courtesy of being taken seriously without having ridiculous monikers added to their race, well I am not sure this is a community I want to be part of.

And Mick is a racist term directed at Irish. Yes, no one in that thread specifically bashed Irish in name, but they made the generic white guy a "Mick" by adding the Mc to the term Whitey McWhiteBoy. Last I checked not every white person in the world is of Irish ancestry, but you sure wouldn't know that after the gross generalization of whites in that thread. Because according to that thread all white guys are Mc's.

I am extremely disappointed in you, Manchu, and in Dakka in general. I expected better of this place.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So explain it better than dropping a wiki link?

I did explain it. You simply choose not to understand because you'd rather decry how terrible it is being a white guy with all these double standards floating about that don't actually exist.

I said nothing of the sort. I simply would like white people to be referred to as white people, and not juvenile terms like Whitey McWhiteBoy. But thanks, I am choosing not to understand you? fething really?

Because according to that thread all white guys are Mc's.

And now you obviously didn't read my post properly, as I specificied my use of Scruffy McWhiteDude included the 'Mc' for the exact reason that White Everyman Heroes have this tendency to be Irishish (John McLane anyone? The sterotypical everyman is literally Irish). The whole reason it's there is to point out the stereotype.

Your fee fees were hurt by someone using colorful language to express their annoyance at how video game protagonists tend to be this interchangeable guy with no personality. Have a lolipop. If your skin is this thin, I can't fathom how you go through life without constantly being offended.

 LordofHats wrote:

Because according to that thread all white guys are Mc's.

And now you obviously didn't read my post properly, as I specificied my use of Scruffy McWhiteDude included the 'Mc' for the exact reason that White Everyman Heroes have this tendency to be Irishish (John McLane anyone? The sterotypical everyman is literally Irish).

So you used a stereotype of white people to make your insulting term more stereotypical?

 LordofHats wrote:
Your fee fees were hurt by someone using colorful language to express their annoyance at how video game protagonists tend to be this interchangeable guy with no personality. Have a lolipop. If your skin is this thin, I can't fathom how you go through life without constantly being offended.

My hypocrisy skin is quite thin. It is hypocritical to rely on stereotypes, or use demeaning language, for one group and not others. I am not advocating that racist terms be allowed for other groups, rather that Dakka checks its use of racially insensitive terms in regards to whites. If it isn't okay to use stupid language for other groups it shouldn't be okay to do so regarding whites. Also, your tone is obnoxious. Might want to check that.

Dark, you're acting like a petulant child. Manchu disagrees with you, and the opinions of other members have proved that this issue is incredibly divisive, but you're acting as if we've just mugged you, smashed the urn containing your grandma's ashes on the pavement, and then kicked your puppy into an open fire.

The impression I'm getting is that you started this thread in order to have argument, and your complete collapse into some sort of "everyone is against me" state only suggests that if you ever intended to have a decent discussion about it then you abandoned that idea pretty damn quickly.

Drop the whole "I'm disappointed in you" act, and quit trying to lynch Manchu because he opposes your viewpoint.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Manchu is questioning the credibility of this thread.

At this point, yes I am calling shenanigans. Your argument is that "Whitey McWhiteGuy" is preemptively racist at least because you assume (with zero evidence) that the surname prefix "Mc" is intended to evoke the racist slur "mick." "Mick" is not even a slur against white people generally.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Because according to that thread all white guys are Mc's.

That is not even close to any point made or implied in that thread.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So you used a stereotype of white people to make your insulting term more stereotypical?

Obtuse is as obtuse does.

It is hypocritical to rely on stereotypes, or use demeaning language, for one group and not others.

So you also missed the part where it was pointed out this doesn't just happen to whites? (I pointed it out in the thread you linked to as well)

Edited by Manchu ~ Rule One is be Polite

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
If it isn't okay to use stupid language for other groups it shouldn't be okay to do so regarding whites.

Well, yes, you're right about that. I think we need to be sure there is no miscommunication -- Racism is not okay on Dakka Dakka, against any race. As I have explained, I believe phases like "Whitey McWhiteGuy" could be used in a racist way, that is in a way to demean people for being white. And I have explained why I do not think that is how the phrase was used in the thread.

I always kind of figured that until we as a society move on and accept that skin color means exactly as much as hair color or eye color we will have problems like this.

Skin color is not important enough to get offended over and it's not important enough to discriminate over. The day we can playfully joke about ethnicity with our friends the way we joke about hair color (with no discriminatory intent behind it whatsoever) will be a much better day for our society.

Horrible stuff was done for stupid reasons in the past, but dragging that baggage along with us isn't helping. I wish I knew what we could do about this subject, but (like many social issues) other than people agreeing not to be dumb I see no solution, so it pretty much makes me pissed off whenever it comes up (again like most social issues).

So I guess I'm saying I see nothing wrong with stuff like this unless the person saying it actually believes what they're saying, in which case there's not much that can be done for them at that point.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
Dark, you're acting like a petulant child. Manchu disagrees with you, and the opinions of other members have proved that this issue is incredibly divisive, but you're acting as if we've just mugged you, smashed the urn containing your grandma's ashes on the pavement, and then kicked your puppy into an open fire.

The impression I'm getting is that you started this thread in order to have argument, and your complete collapse into some sort of "everyone is against me" state only suggests that if you ever intended to have a decent discussion about it then you abandoned that idea pretty damn quickly.

Drop the whole "I'm disappointed in you" act, and quit trying to lynch Manchu because he opposes your viewpoint.

I have debated things with Manchu before, and he follows a pretty tight script. Once he disagrees with you, the thread usually devolves into his extreme parsing of language until everyone is talking in circles.

And yes, I do feel mugged. I absolutely disagree that what Psienesis stated here was not a derisive comment about white people. To be told that his use of "Whitey McWhiteBoy" could be replaced with "just a white guy" is insulting, because he could have done that. But he didn't, he chose to use a ridiculous term to make a point.

For the record I am disappointed. I am disappointed that language I see as divisive is dismissed as harmless because that means I get to enjoy more such speech in future threads. Great news!

 Manchu wrote:
At this point, yes I am calling shenanigans. Your argument is that "Whitey McWhiteGuy" is preemptively racist at least because you assume (with zero evidence) that the surname prefix "Mc" is intended to evoke the racist slur "mick." "Mick" is not even a slur against white people generally.

Mc is the phonetic equivalent to mick. You hear it when you say the term Whitey McWhiteBoy. Is it impossible to see how that, along with the dismissive term boy, and the redundancy of two usages of the word white would come across as racist? Sure, you're saying it isn't racist in the other thread's case because you don't see the harmful intention there, but I do see the intention as being harmful, as far as it is inflammatory speech designed to elicit a response.



I have a difficult time believing you are arguing that "Whitey McWhiteBoy" is a preferable phrase to "generic white guy" in terms of having a reasonable conversation about race, but yet you are stating that they have the same intended meaning.

Finally, people will stop calling me a chuwero.

@DarkTraveller777

Your passive aggressive personal attacks are completely unnecessary.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I have a difficult time believing you are arguing that "Whitey McWhiteBoy" is a preferable phrase to "generic white guy" in terms of having a reasonable conversation about race

It is good you are having difficulty believing that because it is not what I have been arguing. I have been very clear from my first post ITT - While the kind of phrases you mention might hypothetically be used in a racist manner, such is not the case in thread you called out. In that thread

- no one is being attacked for being white
- no one is claiming being white is inferior
- no one is evoking stereotypes about being white

Your argument that the phrases are rendered racist because the concept of being white is juxtaposed with the surname prefix "Mc-," which is in turn homophonous with the slur "Mick," is totally unconvincing. To begin with, "Mick" is not even an anti-white slur. More importantly, there is no evidence that anyone meant to evoke prejudice against Irish people, much less by specifically referencing the "Mick" slur. But that's no surprise considering there is not even evidence that anyone meant to evoke prejudice against whites or anyone else.

Now - I also understand that you don't like the phrases. You not liking a phrase does not make it racist. It does not make a phrase against our rules, either.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Manchu, and in Dakka in general. I expected better of this place.

Manchu is NOT the entirety of Dakka and Manchu (fortunately) does NOT represent Dakka in any way.

As stated before: make an elaborated post, referring to threads / posts in questions and raise your concerns to yakface / legoburner. They represent Dakka's official stance and they, ultimatively, decide what's okay and what isn't.

"Whitey McWhiteGuy" is on the same level as "Blacky McBlackGuy" and whether one is offensive or nor depends on the context.

Bring it up to yakface and you will Dakka's official stance on it.

You don't want to openly speak against a moderator's personal opinion.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


And yes, I do feel mugged. I absolutely disagree that what Psienesis stated here was not a derisive comment about white people. To be told that his use of "Whitey McWhiteBoy" could be replaced with "just a white guy" is insulting, because he could have done that. But he didn't, he chose to use a ridiculous term to make a point.

For the record I am disappointed. I am disappointed that language I see as divisive is dismissed as harmless because that means I get to enjoy more such speech in future threads. Great news!

I have a difficult time believing you are arguing that "Whitey McWhiteBoy" is a preferable phrase to "generic white guy" in terms of having a reasonable conversation about race, but yet you are stating that they have the same intended meaning.

As the son of an Irish mother and Cornish father, I find nothing offensive in this term. 'something Mcsomething' is used in conversation quite often to refer to a 'somebody' in a conversation, in Britain, and has sweet FA to do with citing something racist (and we'd associate Mc far more with Scotland, for the record).

Eg: bloke walks past covered with football team clothing on; 'Have a look at Footie McFootball over there!' or guy walks into FLGS covered in 40k bling 'look out, it's Count Nerdy Von Geekenstein' (also not a slur at Germans...). The interjection of a 'Mc' or 'Von' in these cases is integral to pointing out you're referencing a name in the humor.

And if 'Mick' really is derived from Mc (and not Michael, as 'Paddie' is from Patrick, both hugely popular Irish names) then it's still derived from and not interchangeable with, which still leaves the term 'mcsomething' as harmless.

I despise racism, I just really can't see it here.

This thread went downhill the moment OP compared two completely different things such as Whitey McWhiteguy and Blackie-Watermelon-Face.

Might have been a worthwhile discussion of he would have compared Whitey McWhiteguy to Blackie McBlackguy, which would have both been names that focused solely on race.

Isn't the stereotypical Irish name O'Anything and not McAnything anyway?

 d-usa wrote:


Isn't the stereotypical Irish name O'Anything and not McAnything anyway?

Well, technically the Irish is 'Mac' not 'Mc' but a lot of the names cut the a out in the US. It's a common Gallic prefix that means 'Son of'. 'O' being 'Grandson of.' One or the other is probably more common depending on where you live.

If it means anything, and it really doesn't in this thread, in my life as a Scottish-Irish male living in Scotland with Scottish and Irish fiends and relatives I have yet to ever see someone get offended over the use of the term Mc or Mac in this context. Heck I don't think I've ever even heard someone seriously try to use Mick as a way to upset someone unless it was on an American TV show, probably set before the 50s.

Actually putting 'Mc' into a funny little jab at someone is something I definitely see as far more common here than anywhere else. Case and point, I really called someone Pretty McPretty which was a light hearted jab at reducing their worth to their looks for a joke. The 'Mc' part is the very commonly used format of this joke. No one is going to get upset with this unless they are midway through a serious mental breakdown.


Aw man I shouldn't have said anything, I'm totally gona get baned by the evil Manchu.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Actually putting 'Mc' into a funny little jab at someone is something I definitely see as far more common here than anywhere else.

It is also extremely common in the USA and has the exact same meaning MGS attributes to its usage in Britain:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
'something Mcsomething' is used in conversation quite often to refer to a 'somebody' in a conversation, in Britain, and has sweet FA to do with citing something racist

 d-usa wrote:
Might have been a worthwhile discussion of he would have compared Whitey McWhiteguy to Blackie McBlackguy, which would have both been names that focused solely on race.

Good point. In fact, OP linked to his original interlocutor explaining that is exactly what he intended:

 Psienesis wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
...and the cast of COD is more Whitey McWhiteBoy.

Could you stop this? Could you just say white? Or at least extend the cute naming convention to other skin colors? I'd love to see what you do with brown or yellow.

Once we have "generic Black protagonist" or "generic Asian protagonist", I will do so. Unfortunately, they don't exist.

Equating "Whitey McWhiteBoy with "Blackie-Watermelon-Face" shows OP did not understand Psinesis's point.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Aw man I shouldn't have said anything, I'm totally gona get baned by the evil Manchu.

 Manchu wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
Actually putting 'Mc' into a funny little jab at someone is something I definitely see as far more common here than anywhere else.

It is also extremely common in the USA and has the exact same meaning MGS attributes to its usage in Britain:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
'something Mcsomething' is used in conversation quite often to refer to a 'somebody' in a conversation, in Britain, and has sweet FA to do with citing something racist

I totally agree, I think the pair of us are basically saying the same thing and coming from similar view points on the subject.

I'd be interested to see how the OP feels about the use of the term, 'token black guy'.

 Manchu wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
Aw man I shouldn't have said anything, I'm totally gona get baned by the evil Manchu.

I can't believe you just laughed at me. I'm telling Yak and Lego on you! One rule for you guys and another rule for all of us. Fascists.

 Casey's Law wrote:
I'd be interested to see how the OP feels about the use of the term, 'token black guy'.

Or the name "Dies First" for black characters, which was also mentioned in that thread.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I despise racism, I just really can't see it here.

I too despise racism, even when it's aimed at white people (gasp!), but I can't see it there either.

 Aesop the God Awful wrote:
Or the name "Dies First" for black characters, which was also mentioned in that thread.

Along with "Attitude Brown."

 Manchu wrote:
Along with "Attitude Brown."

Defining pretty much every character Will Smith has ever played (and most of the ones played by Ice-T). Now that it's brought up, I've never understood why that trend with the casting of black actors into basically the same role in most TV shows and many movies has never drawn much attention.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Yeah, I see where this is going.

And Mick is a racist term directed at Irish. Yes, no one in that thread specifically bashed Irish in name, but they made the generic white guy a "Mick" by adding the Mc to the term Whitey McWhiteBoy. Last I checked not every white person in the world is of Irish ancestry, but you sure wouldn't know that after the gross generalization of whites in that thread. Because according to that thread all white guys are Mc's.

The people of Scotland would question Mc being used in purely Irish names, we have plenty of surnames that use it as well.

 LordofHats wrote:
I've never understood why that trend with the casting of black actors into basically the same role in most TV shows and many movies has never drawn much attention.

You would have to describe in a bit more detail exactly what you mean but the idea that black characters are often portrayed as 'streetwise' and no-nonsense has been criticized (just not condemned).

 Manchu wrote:
'streetwise' and no-nonsense has been criticized (just not condemned).

Basically this, though I'd expand streetwise and no-nonsense to include a sort of bounding (to the point of obnoxious) confidence. Such characters also often get portrayed as being obsessed with material things but I couldn't find a fancy way to work that into the name . That's the Attitude part, but I'm also rolling into it the larger cultural observation that we tend to be more inclusive culturally towards black men with lighter skin tones than those with darker tones (hence the 'brown' part of Attitude Brown).

In any case, I think "Attitude Brown" is a good example of a phrase that points out race as an issue without being racist.

 Manchu wrote:
In any case, I think "Attitude Brown" is a good example of a phrase that points out race as an issue without being racist.

As is "Whitey McWhiteboy".

I interpret the Mc prefix in the presented context to be connected to McDonalds, as in a chain restaurant that is always the same. When you see development of large houses that all have the same blocky shape they're called (at least on the east coast in the US where I've lived) Mcmansions, not because people think they're Irish but to point out their bland sameness. Whitey McWhiteboy, to me, is a term that appears to refer to the collection of white male tropes. Another example of this kind of use of Mc would be, Oh look another late night movie featuring Det. Alcoholic McStripperbanger.

Wikipedia has an article about McWords that I believe applies to this discussion.

Exactly what Prestor said.

I was also going to reference the McMansions and the McChurch as I was always under the impression that adding "Mc" to something is to symbolize ubiquitous and often bland presence, just like McDonalds restaurants.

If you think that adding "Mc" prefix to something as a pejorative is some kind of slur against Irish people, you're seriously grasping.

I am offended that a quote of my own words got this thread started, and I wasn't even invited to the party!

A bit of history on the ethnic background of Yours Truly:

On my father's side, the patriarchal line goes back 10 generations of Scot/Irish heritage, until it is lost in poor record keeping and being poor and Irish or poor and Scottish. Thus, a whole lotta Micks on my dad's side of the family. Lotta red hair and freckles, too, which I somehow avoided, even though my dad, my dad's dad, and his father, too, were all red-haired and freckled. My sister could probably pass for Irish or Scottish, though, being freckled, blue-green eyed, and red-blonde haired.

On my father's side, the matrilinal line is all kinds of European (French, French Jew, Irish) back 5 generations, to the time of my great-great-great-great-grandmother, who was Creek Indian. What her previous family was can only be guessed at, as anyone who would know for certain is at least 100 years dead, and our family records do not contain much of her history, other than to state that she was the daughter of a chieftain of some sort or another. Not that such things meant much in the 1870s in the eastern US.

On my mother's side, her patrilinial line is an unbroken chain of Irishmen back to at least the 17th century, before which time we don't have any records. So... a lotta Micks on that side of my family, too!

Her matrilinial line is Sicilian, which is, in the modern era, considered "white", but wasn't in the 1940s (when my maternal grandmother married my maternal grandfather, following his discharge from the US Army after WW2) because Sicilians were (obviously) Italians, which meant they were "wop-dagoes" or some other epithet. However, as previously stated, in modern belief, Italians are white people, because they're part of mainland Europe, and a very Christian culture, to boot (specifically Catholic).

Funny thing... the definition of "white person" has been very fluid, historically speaking, and whether or not being a "white person" was a good thing or not has also been fluid. Go back to ancient times, and the darker-complexioned ("olive", as the term goes) Greeks and Romans held themselves of superior blood to their much-paler (that is, "whiter") barbarian neighbors to the north. This saw a resurgence in the 18th and 19th centuries, when the study of "eugenics" started getting kicked around, and what was considered "perfect beauty" was a reference to the Greeks and Romans of the Classical Eras of both ancient empires. Ironic, I suppose, that the "Aryan race" (itself a borrowed Vedic term!) would come to view itself as the "master race", all blonde hair and blue eyes, in the late 19th through the 20th century. I'm definitely not in that group, having dishwater-blonde (read as: brown, unless the light hits it just right, then it's blonde... sort of) hair and brown eyes (again, that Sicilian blood) but it is funny how the various terms we human meatbags have used to describe ourselves and one another, both good and ill, have changed over time.

Thus, as it so happens, I am just about as "Whitey McWhiteboy" as you can get. Do I hate white people? No more so than I hate any other group of people, which is to say a lot. I'm an Equal-Opportunity Misanthrope. I just hate people in general. White, black, red, green, purple, orange, beige... I don't care. I don't like people. Want to do your thing? Go do it, just don't mess with someone else over there doing their thing, and don't mess with me doing my thing over here, but People don't seem to be able to handle that basic courtesy. People really are the worst part about society.

 Psienesis wrote:
I am offended that a quote of my own words got this thread started, and I wasn't even invited to the party!

I am offended for them. I am also offended that they are offended. I hope that you do not take offence the offensive nature of me being offended.

Prestor Jon wrote:
I interpret the Mc prefix in the presented context to be connected to McDonalds, as in a chain restaurant that is always the same. When you see development of large houses that all have the same blocky shape they're called (at least on the east coast in the US where I've lived) Mcmansions, not because people think they're Irish but to point out their bland sameness. Whitey McWhiteboy, to me, is a term that appears to refer to the collection of white male tropes. Another example of this kind of use of Mc would be, Oh look another late night movie featuring Det. Alcoholic McStripperbanger.

Well said.

 LordofHats wrote:
). Now that it's brought up, I've never understood why that trend with the casting of black actors into basically the same role in most TV shows and many movies has never drawn much attention.

It's because we're so good at it.

Whitey McWhiteGuy, as used in the thread in question, is a (very) slightly facetious way of criticizing a character (type). It does not demean white people.

To you it doesn't to others it sure as hell does.


Strangely if you say Blackey McBlack Guy thats sounds incredibly racist.

Because it is.

Please explain why.

 Casey's Law wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
In any case, I think "Attitude Brown" is a good example of a phrase that points out race as an issue without being racist.

As is "Whitey McWhiteboy".

I'm gonna disagree with that. I don't think Whitey McWhiteboy is a good term at all. It doesn't describe the character in the same way as "Attitude Brown" does, so in that case you're better off just saying "white".

The phrase in question was Scruffy McWhiteboy (or something), which is a good way of describing a common video game/film/TV series protagonist.

We can see from this discussion that saying "white" and "Whitey McWhiteBoy" are actually not equivalent. In the relevant context, the word "white" just describes the character's race. "Whitey McWhiteBoy" is more than a description; it is an implicit argument about the role of race in creating bland video game protagonists, the same way that "Attitude Brown" is an argument about the role of race in writing and casting parts for black people. There are white characters to whom the term "Whitey McWhiteBoy" does not apply.

 Manchu wrote:
Please explain why.

Explain why Blackey McBlackboy is racist?

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Please explain why.

Explain why Blackey McBlackboy is racist?

Yes please.

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Please explain why.

Explain why Blackey McBlackboy is racist?

Yes please.

explain why "Black boy" is racist? Thats a classic racist phrase against black men. I don't know about in the North but in Old South, it was a standard derogatory term.

 Frazzled wrote:
explain why "Black boy" is racist? Thats a classic racist phrase against black men. I don't know about in the North but in Old South, it was a standard derogatory term.

So it is a term tied to a long history of racist prejudice against and marginalization of black people?

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
explain why "Black boy" is racist? Thats a classic racist phrase against black men. I don't know about in the North but in Old South, it was a standard derogatory term.

So it is a term tied to a long history of racist prejudice against and marginalization of black people?

A long history on both sides. The term was/is also used by blacks against whites, often prior to a physical attack.

 Frazzled wrote:
A long history on both sides.

Can you tell me more about the long history of racial prejudice against and marginalization of white people in this country?

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
A long history on both sides.

Can you tell me more about the long history of racial prejudice against and marginalization of white people in this country?

I'm impressed by your attempted Aikido wrist spin, but I reply with Kirk Toss!

 Frazzled wrote:
I'm impressed by your attempted Aikido wrist spin, but I reply with Kirk Toss!

No, as usual, you reply with whimsical spam (although surprisingly not about dachshunds in this case). Your argument is that (1) "Whitey McWhiteBoy" is equivalent to "Blacky McBlackBoy" and (2) the latter is racist because "black boy" evokes a long history of racism against black people in this country. Argument (2) actually disproved argument (1).

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
A long history on both sides.

Can you tell me more about the long history of racial prejudice against and marginalization of white people in this country?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment

 Ghaz wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
A long history on both sides.

Can you tell me more about the long history of racial prejudice against and marginalization of white people in this country?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment

Ummm, that doesn't really work. It's not because they are white.



Also, wasn't blackey an old racial slur?

 Ghaz wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment

Ask yourself who was marginializing the Irish and then ask yourself if that is an example of prejudice against people because they are white.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Also, wasn't blackey an old racial slur?

Yes.

 Manchu wrote:

 Aesop the God Awful wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
In any case, I think "Attitude Brown" is a good example of a phrase that points out race as an issue without being racist.

As is "Whitey McWhiteboy".

I'm gonna disagree with that. I don't think Whitey McWhiteboy is a good term at all. It doesn't describe the character in the same way as "Attitude Brown" does, so in that case you're better off just saying "white".

The phrase in question was Scruffy McWhiteboy (or something), which is a good way of describing a common video game/film/TV series protagonist.

We can see from this discussion that saying "white" and "Whitey McWhiteBoy" are actually not equivalent. In the relevant context, the word "white" just describes the character's race. "Whitey McWhiteBoy" is more than a description; it is an implicit argument about the role of race in creating bland video game protagonists, the same way that "Attitude Brown" is an argument about the role of race in writing and casting parts for black people. There are white characters to whom the term "Whitey McWhiteBoy" does not apply.

I actually can't add anything to that. Probably better than I would have put it today.

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I'm impressed by your attempted Aikido wrist spin, but I reply with Kirk Toss!

No, as usual, you reply with whimsical spam (although surprisingly not about dachshunds in this case). Your argument is that (1) "Whitey McWhiteBoy" is equivalent to "Blacky McBlackBoy" and (2) the latter is racist because "black boy" evokes a long history of racism against black people in this country. Argument (2) actually disproved argument (1).

Actually thats not my argument.

Here's my argument (Kirk Toss!)
*BlackMcBlackboy is racist or at least insenstiive due to its similarity to a racist perjorative.
*WhiteyMcWhiteboy is racist or at least insensitive due to its similarity to a recist perjorative.
Neither have a place on Dakka.

 Frazzled wrote:
WhiteyMcWhiteboy is racist or at least insensitive due to its similarity to a recist perjorative.

What racist pejorative?

Whitey
Whiteboy

Frankly if a term is insensitive towards any group of people it shouldn't be on Dakka regardless.

 Frazzled wrote:
Whitey
Whiteboy

Can you explain to me why you think these terms are racist?

 Frazzled wrote:
Frankly if a term is insensitive towards any group of people it shouldn't be on Dakka regardless.

I disagree because "insensitive" could mean anything all the way down to "I don't like it." "Insensitivity" is certainly not the same thing as racism.

Can you explain why you think Blackey and McBlackey is racist or insensitive.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/codi-bott/2014/07/racism-against-white-people-exists/

White people aren't the only people who can be racists. Anyone who hates someone because of a 'biological difference' (their skin color, nationality, religion, etc.) is racist.

Racism against white people simply is widely accepted or not looked into.

"Everybody's a little bit racist."

 Ghaz wrote:
http://thoughtcatalog.com/codi-bott/2014/07/racism-against-white-people-exists/

White people aren't the only people who can be racists. Anyone who hates someone because of their skin color, nationality or religion is racist.

People aren't saying racism against whites doesn't exist. It's about whether or not a specific term should/could/would be considered racist.

If it isn't already then this starting to turn into a brilliant popcorn thread.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
"Everybody's a little bit racist."

That is true and it makes sense. People always look for self-affirmation and race is one example for a group you identify with. By over-identifying (and racism is one form of it), you increase your self-affirmation.

 Casey's Law wrote:
If it isn't already then this starting to turn into a brilliant popcorn thread.

That's racist.

 Aesop the God Awful wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
http://thoughtcatalog.com/codi-bott/2014/07/racism-against-white-people-exists/

White people aren't the only people who can be racists. Anyone who hates someone because of their skin color, nationality or religion is racist.

People aren't saying racism against whites doesn't exist. It's about whether or not a specific term should/could/would be considered racist.

http://www.rsdb.org/race/whites

Did anyone else spot Whitey?

 Sigvatr wrote:
Did anyone else spot Whitey?

http://www.rsdb.org/slur/whitey

Yeah...I was kinda pointing out that it is on the list indeed

 Sigvatr wrote:
Yeah...I was kinda pointing out that it is on the list indeed

Just for the sight-impaired

 Frazzled wrote:
Can you explain why you think Blackey and McBlackey is racist or insensitive.

Because they evoke (including by being a part of) a long history of racist prejudice against and marginalization of black people.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Racism against white people simply is widely accepted or not looked into.

I'/m not sure if racism against white people is "widely accepted or not looked into" but I am sure that in the USA racism against white people is ineffective.

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's a difficult case as anything referring to whites isn't loaded with a history of racism.

Nope. You have just been lucky enough to never have been exposed to actual racism directed at you for being white. And I am not talking about someone on Tumblr telling you to “check your priviledge”, I am talking actual racism. In France, the word they would use would be babtou. I do not know in Germany, or the U.S. I do not live there.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Racism against white people simply is widely accepted or not looked into.

I disagree with “widely accepted”. It is mostly ignored. And you seem like you are ignorant of what the actual racism against white looks like. But it is a real issue!

I can't speak for Sigvatr, but to me "history of racism" means more than just that someone at some time made an anti-white comment. To me, it means that a group of people has been systematically and effectively excluded from wealth and influence in a society because of their race. Has this happened to white people in France? It certainly has not happened to white people in the USA or (just based on visiting and studying history) Germany.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Aesop the God Awful wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
http://thoughtcatalog.com/codi-bott/2014/07/racism-against-white-people-exists/

White people aren't the only people who can be racists. Anyone who hates someone because of their skin color, nationality or religion is racist.

People aren't saying racism against whites doesn't exist. It's about whether or not a specific term should/could/would be considered racist.

http://www.rsdb.org/race/whites

Oooh, I'm definitely referring to all white people as dog-fethers now.
(I guess that means I'm one as well now).

 Manchu wrote:
I can't speak for Sigvatr, but to me "history of racism" means more than just that someone at some time made an anti-white comment. To me, it means that a group of people has been systematically and effectively excluded from wealth and influence in a society because of their race. Has this happened to white people in France? It certainly has not happened to white people in the USA or (just based on visiting and studying history) Germany.

How many do you need before its not acceptable on Dakka?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

(I guess that means I'm one as well now).

That heavily irritates me as the term "bitch" stems from black culture / slang language and refers to women. I...am...confused.

 Frazzled wrote:
How many do you need before its not acceptable on Dakka?

As you know (or should know), any comment a moderator judges to be rude is not acceptable.

 Sigvatr wrote:
the term "bitch" stems from black culture

I don't think that's true.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

(I guess that means I'm one as well now).

That heavily irritates me as the term "bitch" stems from black culture / slang language and refers to women. I...am...confused.

Whowhatnow? I was referring to that fact that I;m white. Swedish, Norwegian, Irish and English mostley.

Weird, I wanted to quote the first part of your post :(

Oh.

Apologies, you little Goat Roper, you :*

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

(I guess that means I'm one as well now).

That heavily irritates me as the term "bitch" stems from black culture / slang language and refers to women. I...am...confused.

No, it doesn't. That term's been in use since before Europeans knew black people existed.

*popular use of it stems [...]

It doesn't, it really doesn't. Like most forms of vulgarity, its actual origins are probably lost in the mists of time (such as the origins of "f**k" or "s**t"), but it has nothing to do with urban black culture. Seriously. I mean, shoot, the term pre-dates Emancipation, back to a time when slave-owning America was not even necessarily teaching their slaves English, and the word was well in use then.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Scruffy WhiteDude is a pretty good description of the type of videogame character like Drake out of Drake's Whatever (can't remember the name of the games.) He is a scruffy white dude and there are many similar characters in other video games.

I have seen the term used in articles outside the confines of DakkaDakka. It is a fairly common trope.

Whitey McWhiteBoy does nothing to describe a character except emphasise his whiteness and, in terms of using the term 'boy', to diminish his adult identity. Think about why black servants and slaves used to be called 'boy'.

Whitey McWhiteBoy means nothing to me in terms of being offensive. The "boy" part is your own cultural bias showing as well, and isn't something that people from where I live would even notice. It's no more demeaning than talking about "boys and girls" - that is to say - not at all. Whitey McWhiteGirl. See?

Even with your cultural bias in place, I think people are overreacting on that one and perhaps even looking to be offended. It's not "cracker". (which is also a piss-poor insult). But it's certainly not what I'd consider racist.

I think it could be used as a racist slur but the question here is whether it was used that way in a certain context (see OP's links), which I do not think is the case.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

And yes, I do feel mugged. I absolutely disagree that what Psienesis stated here was not a derisive comment about white people. To be told that his use of "Whitey McWhiteBoy" could be replaced with "just a white guy" is insulting, because he could have done that. But he didn't, he chose to use a ridiculous term to make a point.

I disagree that it's in any way insulting or derisive about white people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
I think it could be used as a racist slur but the question here is whether it was used that way in a certain context (see OP's links), which I do not think is the case.

I'll even disagree with you on that for the most part. Anything can be used as an insult, given the right tone and emphasis. Ever been called an onion? Hell, you could even turn that into a racist insult (against a whole range of different races) simply by implication (and people looking to be offended). And Mc being implied to mean "Mick"? There's a lot of reaching in this thread.

 Manchu wrote:
I can't speak for Sigvatr, but to me "history of racism" means more than just that someone at some time made an anti-white comment.

Did I say something about history?

 Ghaz wrote:
http://thoughtcatalog.com/codi-bott/2014/07/racism-against-white-people-exists/

White people aren't the only people who can be racists. Anyone who hates someone because of a 'biological difference' (their skin color, nationality, religion, etc.) is racist.

Every ethnicty contains many racists. And it's not simply related to the most broad brush of "black/white/yellow/red/brown" either. There's lots of racism in Japan towards Koreans Go to Europe. The Irish have a long history of it from.... the English. (Hey, both are "white!"). Jews, Albanians, Slavs, Romani. Greeks and Turns and Kurds. Hutu and Tutsi. Persians and Arabs. What about Polentone and Terrone? Just because you don't see the differences, doesn't mean they don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:


http://www.rsdb.org/race/whites

That's awesome. "Anglo" is in there. We should ban that here on Dakka since it can be used as a racist term by some people in a small part of the world.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Did I say something about history?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's a difficult case as anything referring to whites isn't loaded with a history of racism.

Nope.

I definitely think that Whitey McWhiteboy is pretty offensive, why not just "generic white bloke"?

The back and forth argument is absolutely preposterous frankly. Really absurd. There is absolutely no need to use the term... its not even an abbreviation! "white guy" requires fewer keystrokes!

If someone that was any other ethnicity at all called me "Whitey McWhiteboy" in the pub, we all know what the people surrounding us would think, they would think "the guy throwing that name about is a dick"

But yes, as DT has pointed out, a small group (well 2) Dakka mods are about as impartial as Al Sharpton, and what they say goes.

Why even pretend otherwise when everybody knows it?

Its like Russia denying that they have been active in Ukraine!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah I forgot to vote, I say nay.

Its pretty PC on dakka. If the President couldn't say it on TV, then we shouldn't use it either.

Can you imagine Fox news if he said "Oh well, obviously I want to hear the views of Whitey Mcwhiteguy"

It's totally okay to use offensive terms if they target a majority group. Privilege etc.

Ehm. Kind of. At least in the US, there has never been a time in the history of our national identity that being of Anglo-Saxon descent was ever a bad thing in regards to our legal institutions, financial institutions, systems of government or... anything else, really. In America, if you are white, you are already American Citizen +1. Shoot, even most social institutions were more open to whites than they were to blacks (or anyone of color for that matter)... and still are.

So if the people who have most-benefited from their ethnic heritage... their whiteness, if you will... in this nation, from its inception all the way up to this very second right now, get their jimmies rustled that I, the living example of Whitey McWhiteboy, refer to their generic depiction in video game protagonists as Whitey McWhiteboy.... tough. If that's the worst thing that happens to them this week, then they do, indeed, live lives of privilege.

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's totally okay to use offensive terms if they target a majority group. Privilege etc.

I disagree with that too, but thats because I am a man of honor and integrity.

Case in point, I am poor, but I loathe class warfare. I am the son of a single parent who was a steel-worker, yet I have argued with many a friend (almost all of them) who since the bankers crisis think its fine to hate rich people.

We don't choose to be poor, most rich don't choose to be rich, they are born and the cards lie where they may, yet the amount of hate (and by numerous posters on here I am pretty friendly with too) for "the rich" I see is immense. Its really fething ugly and it is made uglier still because people seem to think it is fine. Did Prince Harry choose to be Prince Harry? Why do so many effete Cambrdge students think its ok to throw eggs at him then? They wouldn't stand for doing it to other minorities.

Hating the rich is almost as intolerable to me as hating the poor, or people of color, its all the same thing, being a judgmental donkey-cave.

I take everyone on a case by case basis, perhaps one day in the future people can be as wise and enlightened as I am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Tough. If that's the worst thing that happens to them this week, then they do, indeed, live lives of privilege.

Seriously that is a fething terrible attitude to have when it comes to bigotry.

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's totally okay to use offensive terms if they target a majority group. Privilege etc.

Hey, do you remember when you asked me if it was not the case that you were an acceptable target and suffered from discrimination?
And I asked you in return “Which part? Acceptable target, or suffer from discrimination?”
My point was that you are an acceptable target because you do not suffer from discrimination.
Blacks are a majority group in South Africa, and where so even during the apartheid. But it was not okay to use offensive terms targeting them. And really they did suffer from discrimination.
Do you suffer from discrimination?

*looks at his username*



Also



I love posting that vid.

This needs reposted and the thread needs locked.

 Manchu wrote:
We can see from this discussion that saying "white" and "Whitey McWhiteBoy" are actually not equivalent. In the relevant context, the word "white" just describes the character's race. "Whitey McWhiteBoy" is more than a description; it is an implicit argument about the role of race in creating bland video game protagonists, the same way that "Attitude Brown" is an argument about the role of race in writing and casting parts for black people. There are white characters to whom the term "Whitey McWhiteBoy" does not apply.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's totally okay to use offensive terms if they target a majority group. Privilege etc.

Hey, do you remember when you asked me if it was not the case that you were an acceptable target and suffered from discrimination?
And I asked you in return “Which part? Acceptable target, or suffer from discrimination?”
My point was that you are an acceptable target because you do not suffer from discrimination.
Blacks are a majority group in South Africa, and where so even during the apartheid. But it was not okay to use offensive terms targeting them. And really they did suffer from discrimination.
Do you suffer from discrimination?

Wait... this is sort of a bad argument I think. I mean, you seem to be saying - and I could be misconstruing this - but that if a group isn't traditionally discriminated against because of their skin color (lets say), then using an offensive term towards a member of that group who is selected solely based upon skin color isn't actually discrimination? Cause I don't think that flies. Even a member of a majority percentage group can be discriminated.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
against*

 Casey's Law wrote:
This needs reposted and the thread needs locked.

 Manchu wrote:
We can see from this discussion that saying "white" and "Whitey McWhiteBoy" are actually not equivalent. In the relevant context, the word "white" just describes the character's race. "Whitey McWhiteBoy" is more than a description; it is an implicit argument about the role of race in creating bland video game protagonists, the same way that "Attitude Brown" is an argument about the role of race in writing and casting parts for black people. There are white characters to whom the term "Whitey McWhiteBoy" does not apply.

I'm truly stunned that you, and half the people in this thread cannot possibly see the point of what DT, and several other people are saying. Its not that its really offensive, obviously its not "really offensive" because white people have never had the power of the state arrayed against them, it isn't the issue.

The issue, clearly, is one of consistency. I think people should be able to say absolutely anything they want. If some Muslim extremist guy wants to make a banner and stand outside the houses of Parliament saying insane things, I think he should be allowed, I have always advocated that. The ISLAM4UK march should have been allowed through Wooten Bassett, it wasn't, for the same reasons that we have drawn a line under what you can and cant say. I disagree with it, but fine, whatever.

Thus we arrive at the crux. I disagree with PC nonsense, but it has won the day, and we have decided that we are always going to be PC and watch what we say all the time. Ergo, I want some bloody consistency. If you would be unable to say something in a public forum, say as a newsreader or a politician, then we should behave appropriately. Its not terribly offensive, it obviously isn't, and it doesn't upset me. But anyone with integrity hates double standards, and that's what it is. Clearly and obviously.

If a black president or a black prime minister said "Obviously I want to address the points that "Whitey mcwhiteboy" over there have brought up" it is unacceptable to all and sundry.

I am genuinely amazed that you cant see the OPs point. Its not about offensiveness, its about hypocrisy, and consistency.

"Boy" is also rude. Im a 34 year old man, if someone calls me "boy" its almost always rude unless the guy is past 70.

Why not just admit, "ok yeah, it can certainly be needlessly rude, thus we should simply say "generic white male"

I'd call you boy in real life.

And damn right I'd be trying to be rude.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I'd call you boy in real life.

And damn right I'd be trying to be rude.

Proved my point then yes?

Much appreciated.

Not a problem mate.



I'm just bitter and twisted and mean

It's like you either didn't read or didn't understand what I/Manchu said. It's a shame but I'm sorry because I don't care enough to spoon feed it.

 Casey's Law wrote:
It's like you either didn't read or didn't understand what I/Manchu said. It's a shame but I'm sorry because I don't care enough to spoon feed it.

I read it, and understood it fully, I just think its a stretch.

"generic white male" is better, use that.

Clearly missed the point.

 Ouze wrote:
I mean, you seem to be saying - and I could be misconstruing this - but that if a group isn't traditionally discriminated against because of their skin color (lets say), then using an offensive term towards a member of that group who is selected solely based upon skin color isn't actually discrimination?

I just meant what I write. I do not think Sigvatr ever suffered from discrimination. I do not think anyone suffered from being called “Whitey mcwhiteboy”. I think this is just about annoyance at perceived inequality, and not at all about actually suffering from discrimination. Some white people definitely suffered from discrimination though, but those were called «babtou», or whatever the equivalent in English is.
Manchu will certainly point out how that is not an “history of racism”, but that does not make the suffering out of the prejudice any less real.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I just meant what I write. I do not think Sigvatr ever suffered from discrimination.

...what. We could start at a very basic level with me basically getting protesters every single time when I give a speech. Laws that specifically target an entire group of people i.e. us. An entire German "political" party aiming at taking said group down. The fact that anything that goes against us being socially justified because it's "fun" to make fun of us.

This is starting (!) to become some sort of odd extension of the OT Forum.

So unless there's a reason to keep this thread open - it is going to get locked soon.

We will take it to PMs then.

Good idea!