Ok so I am aware that a number of flying monstrous creatures have the deep strike special rule. It is also true that a number of units gain the ability to become jump units by purchasing a wings or a jump pack upgrade of some kind, also giving them explicit permission to deep strike by the virtue of their unit type and the special rules associated with the jump unit type in the BRB.
My question is this: If a creature who does not have the deep strike special rule purchases an upgrade that allows him to "move exactly like a jump monstrous creature", does this confer the deployment benefits of a jump unit? Does moving "exactly like" a jump unit mean that you can use the alternative deployment methods of a jump unit? This is the case for pretty much any flying monstrous creature who does not have the deep strike special rule granted to them in their codex explicitly somehow (I'm looking at you, Hive Tyrant)
I would disagree with Fragile. I'm probably wrong as you could point out that Deep Strike is done in the movement phase and the unit counts as having moved, but it seems like wierd wording, why write "moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" instead of "changes unit type to Jump Monstrous Creature"?
I understand you're being vague to avoid bias, but what unit and upgrade are we actually talking about?
Not with a book, but a Beast moves like Jump creature, they both move 12".
I play as FMC have all the jump rules. Someone questions it, we'll roll off. If they question a roll off, they probably aren't worth playing again.
[edit]
Okay just picked up book, and again i'm fully inclined to say yes. It doesn't say units "when moving like a jump creatures gain rules associated with moving/ deploying etc blah blah". What it does say, "units described as 'moving like' jump units follow all of the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules". Doesn't specify when or where. But whatever.
Bias or no bias, i don't think i've ever DS a FMC.
eskimo wrote: Okay just picked up book, and again i'm fully inclined to say yes. It doesn't say units "when moving like a jump creatures gain rules associated with moving/ deploying etc blah blah". What it does say, "units described as 'moving like' jump units follow all of the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules". Doesn't specify when or where. But whatever..
Yep, just found that part of the Jump rules (I'd been looking mostly at the FMC rules), so I retract my previous post. Cheers.
I'm still interested in what the actual unit in question is though.
If for example it's something like " while swooping, ...", it doesn't work from reserves because you just don't swoop in reserves.
You should copy paste the full rules of that piece of wargear here so that we can confirm that it does work.
Like for example...
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
It does not get the Jump type, therefore it doesn't get USRS.
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
As soon as it enters play. I.E. you don't get to be swooping or gliding prior to deployment.
eskimo wrote: Okay just picked up book, and again i'm fully inclined to say yes. It doesn't say units "when moving like a jump creatures gain rules associated with moving/ deploying etc blah blah". What it does say, "units described as 'moving like' jump units follow all of the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules". Doesn't specify when or where. But whatever..
Yep, just found that part of the Jump rules (I'd been looking mostly at the FMC rules), so I retract my previous post. Cheers.
I'm still interested in what the actual unit in question is though.
The forelimbs of some Tyranid organisms are in fact leathery wings.
If a Monstrous Creature has this biomorph, its unit type is Flying Monstrous Creature.
It becomes an FMC, which cannot Deep Strike because it does not receive the Jump unit type for being an FMC.
It just gets to move like a Jump Unit when gliding, which only happens as it enters play, i.e. much too late for a Deep Strike, as you need to put the unit in DS reserve at the end of your deployment to arrive by Deep Strike.
eskimo wrote: Hive Tyrant with Wings as his first post
I was expecting there to be an instance of some sort of wargear that allowed "moving exactly like a jump monstrous creature" without actually changing the unit type. Otherwise, why the meandering about upgrades in the initial post.
I'll just write that off as me looking for too deep a meaning in the opening post.
They move like Jump units, they don't gain the Special Rules of Jump units. They don't suddenly gain "bulky"
Also They only move as Jump Units when Swooping or Gliding.
They can select one of these Flight modes at set times: Deployment, or start of it's move.
Note that there is nothing that allows a selection of Flight mode BEFORE Deployment, which is when it would be needed (if "Moveing Like" also granted the Special Rules).
A weak case could have been made for it granting Deep Strike last edition, but not in this one.
guys guys, this is really simple just give the page that says that "Units descrived as 'moving like' Jump units follow all the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules" I have found no such paragraph, and thereforei see nothing that says that they have the deepstrike specail rule
@SaJeel ... don't interfere in rules debate if you can't bother reading the books.
JUMP UNITS
Jump units are equipped with jump packs, wings, teleport devices or other means of moving quickly over short distances. Unlike most other unit type categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase – they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn. If not using its jump pack, a model moves as a normal model of its type. Indeed, a Jump unit can always choose to move as a normal model of their type if they wish. Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement. Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
morgoth wrote: @SaJeel ... don't interfere in rules debate if you can't bother reading the books.
I think you should re-read what he ACTUALY wrote before you insult someone.
In the last edition there was in fact a rule stating that units described as moving like Jump Units followed their rules. This rule is no longer present in 7th Ed, so he's saying if you want to claim that, you should quote the rule (and hence learn it doesn't exist anymore).
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules. - Jump Units
Ah, that sentence is still there. Wonder why the search didn't find it. Strange.
Back to the same old lengthly debate as last edition then. If they have neither Swooping or Gliding slected, are they described as moving like Jump Units?
Fragile wrote: Swooping or gliding is irrelevant. He is described as "moving like a Jump" creature in every mode he can move in. That is all that is required.
Except when in reserve. The model is in neither mode, so is NOT described as moving like a jump unit.
Fragile wrote: Swooping or gliding is irrelevant. He is described as "moving like a Jump" creature in every mode he can move in. That is all that is required.
Except when in reserve. The model is in neither mode, so is NOT described as moving like a jump unit.
That is irrelevant. The rule states that if the creature is described as moving like a Jump creature, then it gains the rules. There is no form of FMC that does not describe it as moving like a Jump creature. Therefore there is zero basis to claim that it cannot DS.
Fragile wrote: Swooping or gliding is irrelevant. He is described as "moving like a Jump" creature in every mode he can move in. That is all that is required.
Except when in reserve. The model is in neither mode, so is NOT described as moving like a jump unit.
That is irrelevant. The rule states that if the creature is described as moving like a Jump creature, then it gains the rules. There is no form of FMC that does not describe it as moving like a Jump creature. Therefore there is zero basis to claim that it cannot DS.
Fragile wrote: Swooping or gliding is irrelevant. He is described as "moving like a Jump" creature in every mode he can move in. That is all that is required.
Except when in reserve. The model is in neither mode, so is NOT described as moving like a jump unit.
That is irrelevant. The rule states that if the creature is described as moving like a Jump creature, then it gains the rules. There is no form of FMC that does not describe it as moving like a Jump creature. Therefore there is zero basis to claim that it cannot DS.
When it's in reserve, is it described as moving like a jump unit? No it isn't.
It doesn't say "if described as moving like a jump unit maybe sometime in the future".
grendel083 wrote: When it's in reserve, is it described as moving like a jump unit? No it isn't.
It doesn't say "if described as moving like a jump unit maybe sometime in the future"..
It is never NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.
The only times its described as such is when Swooping or Gliding. No other time.
You may only choose one of these when it deploys, or start of its move. In Reserve is not one of these times.
So when in Reserve, it is NOT Swooping and it is NOT Gliding. There is in fact a default move type, Which the last edition didn't have. You'll notice at the start of the rules, we are told they are Monstrous Creatures with extra rules. How does a Monstrous Creature move?
grendel083 wrote: When it's in reserve, is it described as moving like a jump unit? No it isn't.
It doesn't say "if described as moving like a jump unit maybe sometime in the future"..
It is never NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.
The only times its described as such is when Swooping or Gliding. No other time.
You may only choose one of these when it deploys, or start of its move. In Reserve is not one of these times.
So when in Reserve, it is NOT Swooping and it is NOT Gliding. There is in fact a default move type, Which the last edition didn't have. You'll notice at the start of the rules, we are told they are Monstrous Creatures with extra rules. How does a Monstrous Creature move?
Since a FMC cannot move as a MC that is pretty irrelevant. You have a choice of only 2 ways to move. Both of which are Jump.
Fragile wrote: FMCs are always described as moving like Jump units and therefore gain the rules of Jump units. Reserve does not matter.
No they're not.
They're only described as moving like jump units then Swooping or Gliding. When neither of these are selected they use the default movement for Monstrous Creatures.
In Reserve they may not select Swooping or Gliding. The are not described as moving as Jump Units.
It is possible for a game to end with a FMC having never selected a flight mode, and having never been described as moving as Jump Infantry.
Again the rule isn't "described as moving as jump infantry maybe sometime in the future".
Automatically Appended Next Post: You want to invoke a rule that only applies to models that are described as moving like Jump units when they are NOT described as moving like Jump Units just because they MIGHT be described as moving like that later in the game, maybe.
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
They are limited to choices of movement, both of which are Jump.
Again the rule isn't "described as moving as jump infantry maybe sometime in the future"
No the rule is "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units,"
Both possible modes of movement for the FMC are described as this. Nothing more needs to be proven. Your claim about a future event is again irrelevant. The rule describes them as Jump, therefore they gain the benefit of Jump.
Your argument would hold weight if one mode was NOT jump and the other was. Then you have a sound argument.
When in reserve it is not described as moving like a Jump Unit. Simple as that, there is no permission to select one of those modes.
Being described as moving like a jump unit is something that MIGHT happen in the models future, but is not garenteed.
There is indeed a type of movement they have access to which is not described as moving like a Jump Unit. They are also Monstrous Creatures, and follow all of those rules, so that standard Move is still part of their rules. The rules for flight Modes also state CAN move as Swooping or Gliding, not MUST. This introduces the possibility of other forms of Movement.
Simply put, when in reserve. They are NOT described as moving like Jump Infantry, they simply have a chance of doing so later (and again, it's not garenteed).
Automatically Appended Next Post: If the game ends early (tabling for example) with a FMC still in reserve having never deployed, has it at any point been described as moving like a Jump Unit?
No, because it was never allowed to select a Flight Mode.
Your hung up on the Reserve thing. It is not relevant.
You are given a choice of 1 of 2 methods to move. Its either one or the other, not a third option. Both are Jump.
If the game ends early (tabling for example) with a FMC still in reserve having never deployed, has it at any point been described as moving like a Jump Unit?
No, because it was never allowed to select a Flight Mode.
Yes it is described as moving like a jump unit because the FMC rule describes it as moving like a Jump unit, as I have quoted to you several times. You seem to require some kind of physical on table movement to meet criteria. The rule does not.
You're trying to invoke a rule on a model that doesn't qualify for it, because it might qualify sometime in the future.
In order to Deep Strike, you need the Deep Strike rule, and to be in reserve. So in reserve is the crucial time. And at that point it has no Flight Mode selected. It is NOT described as moving like a Jump Unit.
Yes you are given the choice of two methods later on in the game, a third exists on account of it being a Monstrous Creature. Neither of the two flight modes are available in reserve, there's simply no allowance to select one. That leaves it's default option only.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At the point when it's in Reserve, how is it described as moving? It can't be swooping or Gliding, as the FMC rules are very clear on when it can pick one of those (and reserve isn't one of them). So without Swooping or Gliding being an option, how is it described as moving?
Yes you are given the choice of two methods later on in the game, a third exists on account of it being a Monstrous Creature. Neither of the two flight modes are available in reserve, there's simply no allowance to select one. That leaves it's default option only.
This is your hangup. There are only two options for a FMC to move.
"Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding." There is not third default option of generic MC in there. You have a choice of two possibles. Both are described as Jump. Both allow you to Deep Strike.
Fragile wrote: You have a choice of two possibles. Both are described as Jump. Both allow you to Deep Strike.
And which of those two is it when in reserve?
(I'll give you a hint: it's a trick question )
It's neither, and here's why:
BRBFMC's wrote:Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules.
So all the rules of MC's apply to FMC's. That would included movement.
Flight Modes wrote:Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
So can, not must. And nothing saying it must always be one of the two.
Gliding wrote:If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
So, when Gliding it is described as moving like a Jump Unit.
Swooping wrote:If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions:
And when Swooping it is also described as moving like a Jump Unit.
So, it is a Monstrous creature which follows all of those rules including movement. It can also select one of two modes that means it is described as moving like a Jump Unit. No rule that says it must always be in one of the Flight Modes. So far, we have 3 methods of movement.
Now what times do rule say you can pick a Flight Mode?
1). Deployment (including starting on the table, arriving from reserve, and if possible Deep Strike).
2). At the start of its move.
No other times listed. So in Reserve, neither of the 2 times above can apply. A Flight Mode cannot be selected. And there is no "default" flight mode that applies at all times.
So it is not Swooping, and it is not Gliding. It is not described as moving like a Jump Unit.
That leaves it's normal movement, the same as every other MC, that is NOT described as Moving like a Jump Unit. So when in Reserve, it does not have Deep Strike.
You're trying to invoke a rule it does NOT qualify for, just because it might qualify for it later.
Yes you are given the choice of two methods later on in the game, a third exists on account of it being a Monstrous Creature. Neither of the two flight modes are available in reserve, there's simply no allowance to select one. That leaves it's default option only.
This is your hangup. There are only two options for a FMC to move.
"Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding." There is not third default option of generic MC in there. You have a choice of two possibles. Both are described as Jump. Both allow you to Deep Strike.
And which of those two is it when in reserve?
(I'll give you a hint: it's a trick question )
Give you a hint. It doesnt matter. The FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit in every possible form it can move. You seem to think that being in reserve changes this. It does not. The simple description in the FMC rule on page 131 of my particular rule book is all that is necessary to fulfill the Jump Unit rule to allow Deepstrike.
OK this is very simple to solve
here we go
"Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.'" So that means if a unit has any description of "moiving like" a jump unit has its all the specail rules of a jump unit.
Flying monstrous creatures are described as moving like a jump unit therefore they have all the special rules of a jump unit
RAwR.
In reservers or out of reserves when i read the rules for the phrase ' it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature' is still present whether or not it is being used.
Grendel A FMC would need to 100% lose the swooping rule for you to have a case. Even if it is in reserves it still has the swooping rule is still apart of its rules, just as a model with armourbane still has the rule even if it isnt in close combat
SaJeel wrote: Grendel A FMC would need to 100% lose the swooping rule for you to have a case. Even if it is in reserves it still has the swooping rule is still apart of its rules, just as a model with armourbane still has the rule even if it isnt in close combat
Not at all. It's more like giving a model Armourbane when it doesn't have it, just because it might get it later. Look at when a model can swoop or glide. It can't do either in reserve.
Fragile wrote: Give you a hint. It doesnt matter. The FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit in every possible form it can move. You seem to think that being in reserve changes this. It does not. The simple description in the FMC rule on page 131 of my particular rule book is all that is necessary to fulfill the Jump Unit rule to allow Deepstrike.
You're tring to invoke a rule for a model that doesn't qualify for it, just because it might qualify for it later.
SaJeel wrote: Grendel A FMC would need to 100% lose the swooping rule for you to have a case. Even if it is in reserves it still has the swooping rule is still apart of its rules, just as a model with armourbane still has the rule even if it isnt in close combat
Not at all. It's more like giving a model Armourbane when it doesn't have it, just because it might get it later. Look at when a model can swoop or glide. It can't do either in reserve.
Fragile wrote: Give you a hint. It doesnt matter. The FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit in every possible form it can move. You seem to think that being in reserve changes this. It does not. The simple description in the FMC rule on page 131 of my particular rule book is all that is necessary to fulfill the Jump Unit rule to allow Deepstrike.
You're tring to invoke a rule for a model that doesn't qualify for it, just because it might qualify for it later.
I am not invoking a rule. That would be something like Fateweaver's once per turn reroll. The rule states that FMCs move like Jump. Your trying to claim that because you cannot take Move actions in Reserve, that it somehow disqualifies that unit despite a clearly written rule. There is zero ambiguity in the fact that a FMC is described as moving like jump.
JinxDragon wrote: Fragile,
It is a Timing Debate:
These two modes can be chosen at a specific Time, prior to that choice what movement mode is it in?
It really isnt a timing debate. The simple question is "Is a FMC described as moving like a Jump unit". In every possible way it can move, the answer is yes. Your attempting to force the FMC to somehow move to gain these benefits. It does not have to choose either method of movement.
units described as 'moving like' jump units follow all of the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules
Is the unit in question ever described as 'moving like' jump units? Then apply the rule.
The answer is yes
Are we really trying to argue that when an FMC is it reservers the Swooping and gliding rules don't exist? Is that what grendel is saying?
I was so sure of the answer when I opened the thread, but after reading I can see where the issues arise. I can see two main points of contention.
1) This is the most obvious issue: does 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature' allow you to use the special rules of jump units.
2) If the game does allow FMCs to use the jump rules: An FMC that enters play via deepstrike it always enters play in the swooping flight mode. Only a glidingFMC 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.'
As being an FMC does not inherently provide deepstrike, and an FMC arriving by deepstrike must do so in swooping mode, does the FMC have permission to access the deepstrike rules if it can not enter play whilst gliding.
If we are going to strictly rule lawyer this, it does seem imo that units without the deepstrike ability that become FMC do not have permission to use the deepstrike rule.
However, this is not something I actually do or enforce, and we do allow flyrants to deepstrike where I play.
From a fluff perspective (no bearing on the actual rules): If my Daemon prince deepstrikes and must enter play as a swooping FMC, I must surmise that it flew to the battlefield. If my Daemon prince can fly to a battlefield, why can't the flyrant.
GW has a history of vague rules. The answer is simple: In friendly gaming groups come to a consensus. In tournaments ask the TO on any rule queries.
Big Blind Bill wrote: I was so sure of the answer when I opened the thread, but after reading I can see where the issues arise. I can see two main points of contention.
1) This is the most obvious issue: does 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature' allow you to use the special rules of jump units.
2) If the game does allow FMCs to use the jump rules: An FMC that enters play via deepstrike it always enters play in the swooping flight mode. Only a glidingFMC 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.'
Big Blind Bill wrote: I was so sure of the answer when I opened the thread, but after reading I can see where the issues arise. I can see two main points of contention.
1) This is the most obvious issue: does 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature' allow you to use the special rules of jump units.
2) If the game does allow FMCs to use the jump rules: An FMC that enters play via deepstrike it always enters play in the swooping flight mode. Only a glidingFMC 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.'
Read the first sentence of Swooping
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump MonstrousCreature
Ok this is the first sentence, what is your point? It says moves like. It does not say it 'is' a jump monstrous creature. My first point is still valid.
@Fragile as long as the FMC is not swooping or gliding, it does not get the special rules.
It cannot swoop or glide in reserve and it has the possibility like every model to just move normally (which it will never use in game due to swoop or glide being declared when it enters play), so no it doesn't get DS at the start of the game when you need to put it in Deep Strike Reserve.
What's the third mode the FMC can be in when it's not gliding or swooping? An FMC is always in one or the other. There is no third option. You are not allowed to make up a third option. An FMC that goes back into reserves is locked to the mode in which it left. An FMC that arrives via Deep Strike is locked to swooping. An FMC that is grounded is immediately in gliding mode. There is no third "limbo" state that exists in the rules.
col_impact wrote: What's the third mode the FMC can be in when it's not gliding or swooping? An FMC is always in one or the other. There is no third option. You are not allowed to make up a third option. An FMC that goes back into reserves is locked to the mode in which it left. An FMC that arrives via Deep Strike is locked to swooping. There is no third "limbo" state that exists in the rules.
What is it when in Reserve?
The FMC rules are very clear on when you can select a Flight Mode, reserve isn't one of them.
Yes going back into reserve would mean it has one, but starting the game in Reserve it doesn't.
The third option is simply the default movement for any Monstrous Creatures, since FMC's are MC's with extra rules.
col_impact wrote: What's the third mode the FMC can be in when it's not gliding or swooping? An FMC is always in one or the other. There is no third option. You are not allowed to make up a third option. An FMC that goes back into reserves is locked to the mode in which it left. An FMC that arrives via Deep Strike is locked to swooping. There is no third "limbo" state that exists in the rules.
What is it when in Reserve?
The FMC rules are very clear on when you can select a Flight Mode, reserve isn't one of them.
Yes going back into reserve would mean it has one, but starting the game in Reserve it doesn't.
The third option is simply the default movement for any Monstrous Creatures, since FMC's are MC's with extra rules.
Show in the rules where an FMC can choose or be in a third option and tell me with the rules what that is called.
col_impact wrote: Show in the rules where an FMC can choose or be in a third option and tell me with the rules what that is called.
I already have, if you scroll most of the way up this page, but I'll give you the highlights again.
First part of the Flying Monstrous Creature (FMC) rules explains that a FMC is a Monstrous Creature (MC) with some extra rules. So all rules that apply to MC's also apply to FMC's. This would included movement. So right there we have a default form of movement for the unit type.
We are then told that there are 2 Flight Modes available, Swooping and Gliding. The rules then go on to lay out how and when you may select a Flight Mode. The first being when it deploys (start on the table, arrive from reserve etc..) the second being at the start of it's Move (this requires it to be on the table).
When you can select a Flight Mode is clearly layed out. None of those times included when the Model is in Reserve. So you cannot choose for the model to be Swooping or Gliding. When in Reserve it is in neither Flight Mode. So how does it move when not swooping or gliding? The same way any other MC moves.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Please feel free to varify the rules quotes i used in the post further up the page (they were direct copy/past from the iBook rulebook).
If you can find a rule that states a FMC must have a flight mode selected while in Reserve AND a rule that allows you to choose one (or enforces one) when in Reserve, then fair play. But from what I can see, there is no way to have a Flight mode selected while in Reserve (excluding ongoing reserve of course).
grendel083 wrote: When you can select a Flight Mode is clearly layed out. None of those times included when the Model is in Reserve. So you cannot choose for the model to be Swooping or Gliding. When in Reserve it is in neither Flight Mode. So how does it move when not swooping or gliding? The same way any other MC moves.
Just Curious:
If you do not select to Glide and do not select to Swoop, can you move the standard 6" of a MC? (Assuming deployed on the board turn 1, and it is, say, turn 3?)
I will then think further if this provides any advantage (such as Jump Units running through terrain without Dangerous tests)
If you do not select to Glide and do not select to Swoop, can you move the standard 6" of a MC? (Assuming deployed on the board turn 1, and it is, say, turn 3?)
I will then think further if this provides any advantage (such as Jump Units running through terrain without Dangerous tests)
When entering play or at the start of the move, a Flight Mode must be selected. There's just no allowance to select one in Reserve.
A standard Jump unit can only use it's Skybourne in one phase, so not using it the Movement phase would allow them to go through difficult terrain without a dangerous test. So a Gliding FMC can do the same.
An FMC does not choose to go into Swooping or Gliding mode as soon as it enters play, it DECLARES
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.
declare means
1.to make known or state clearly, especially in explicit or formal terms:
2.to announce officially; proclaim
3.to reveal; show:
This means that you are not changing anything about what state the FMC is in, only making it known at that point in time for the game record. Prior to that point in time it is in Gliding or Swooping mode, it just hasn't been declared by the player yet which one.
Declare one of two, you still need to choose between 2 options. Whichever one makes you happy.
Can you find any rule allowing allowing the choice (or declaring a choice, if you prefer) of Gliding or Swooping while in Reserve?
You are reading in "choice". You are not permitted to add stuff to the rules. "Choice" is something you are adding. Declare does not mean "choose." Declare means that you are making it known or revealing. So the player reveals whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode as it enters play. This means that before it was revealed it was in Swooping or Gliding mode.
col_impact wrote: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.
Problem with the issue is the text highlighted above. Nothing in there says it was Gliding or Swooping on Turn 2 (Reserves) if you roll reserves for it on Turn 3.
It's down to Timing of the rule (What Grendel describes - my guess)
col_impact wrote: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.
Problem with the issue is the text highlighted above. Nothing in there says it was Gliding or Swooping on Turn 2 (Reserves) if you roll reserves for it on Turn 3.
It's down to Timing of the rule (What Grendel describes - my guess)
There is no timing issue. Just take full note of the use of the word declare and the state of the FMC prior to declaration logically follows. The player does not choose as it enters play. The player reveals.
Following the use of the word declare, it can be conclusively stated that the FMC is in Gliding or Swooping mode before it enters play.
col_impact wrote: You are reading in "choice". You are not permitted to add stuff to the rules. "Choice" is something you are adding. Declare does not mean "choose." Declare means that you are making it known or revealing. So the player reveals whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode as it enters play. This means that before it was revealed it was in Swooping or Gliding mode.
That's an assumption that has no basis in rules. You need to prove that the model was in a flight mode prior to it being declared. Rules quote for this please.
If you can't prove that, prove that Swooping or Gliding can be declared while in Reserve. Again, rules quote please
If you can prove that Gliding is the default form of Movement when Swooping hasn't been declared (or visa versa), you might have a case. But no rule says this.
Starting on the board, it's Gliding. No choice, no declaring. Simply is.
Same with arriving from Deep Strike. Swooping. No choice, no declaring.
Arriving from reserve, you declare which mode it is in. How do you declare which mode (out of two) if there is no choice?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: There is no timing issue. Just take full note of the use of the word declare and the state of the FMC prior to declaration logically follows. The player does not choose as it enters play. The player reveals.
Reveals what? One of the two modes it's in?
You can only declare one, and the rules don't tell you which.
So which one is it?
Could it be that you need to make a.......... choice?
Simple question col_impact: A FMC enters the table from Reserve. What flight mode do you declare and why?
col_impact wrote: You are reading in "choice". You are not permitted to add stuff to the rules. "Choice" is something you are adding. Declare does not mean "choose." Declare means that you are making it known or revealing. So the player reveals whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode as it enters play. This means that before it was revealed it was in Swooping or Gliding mode.
That's an assumption that has no basis in rules. You need to prove that the model was in a flight mode prior to it being declared. Rules quote for this please.
If you can't prove that, prove that Swooping or Gliding can be declared while in Reserve. Again, rules quote please
If you can prove that Gliding is the default form of Movement when Swooping hasn't been declared (or visa versa), you might have a case. But no rule says this.
Starting on the board, it's Gliding. No choice, no declaring. Simply is.
Same with arriving from Deep Strike. Swooping. No choice, no declaring.
Arriving from reserve, you declare which mode it is in. How do you declare which mode (out of two) if there is no choice?
I suggest you stick to using declare in your description of what is going on. By using declare when describing what happens as the FMC enters play, it can be conclusively stated that the FMC is in gliding or swooping mode before it enters play.
col_impact wrote: it can be conclusively stated that the FMC is in gliding or swooping mode before it enters play.
Only if you make many assumptions that have no basis in the rules. Lets cover some, starting with the question asked earlier:
col_impact wrote: An FMC enters the table from Reserve. It is in either gliding or swooping mode. As it enters play, I need to reveal what mode it is in.
col_impact wrote: An FMC enters the table from Reserve. It is in either gliding or swooping mode. As it enters play, I need to reveal what mode it is in.
You've repeated the question, not answered it.
What mode is it in and why?
We know for sure that it is in either Gliding or Swooping mode (per the use of declare).
The use of declare in the rules as written directly supports my argument and contradicts yours.
Big Blind Bill wrote: I was so sure of the answer when I opened the thread, but after reading I can see where the issues arise. I can see two main points of contention.
1) This is the most obvious issue: does 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature' allow you to use the special rules of jump units.
2) If the game does allow FMCs to use the jump rules: An FMC that enters play via deepstrike it always enters play in the swooping flight mode. Only a glidingFMC 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.'
Read the first sentence of Swooping
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump MonstrousCreature
Ok this is the first sentence, what is your point? It says moves like. It does not say it 'is' a jump monstrous creature. My first point is still valid.
Bill, you obviously have not read any of this thread. You should read the rules for Jump units for your answer to #1 and your second point is proven false.
grendel083 wrote: [The third option is simply the default movement for any Monstrous Creatures, since FMC's are MC's with extra rules.
This has been proven false repeatedly.
Not even once, it has not been proven, just saying it has doesn't make it so. Please quote a rule if you believe otherwise.
The FMC rule clearly states it's a MC with extra rules.
col_impact wrote: A choice is not made at that time. I do not read anything in to the rules.
Per the rules I am revealing whether the FMC is gliding or swooping.
What time is the choice made then? Rules quote please.
Because at some point, a choice must be made in order for you to declare it.
grendel083 wrote: [The third option is simply the default movement for any Monstrous Creatures, since FMC's are MC's with extra rules.
This has been proven false repeatedly.
Not even once. Please quote a rule if you believe otherwise.
The FMC rule clearly states it's a MC with extra rules.
col_impact wrote: A choice is not made at that time. I do not read anything in to the rules.
Per the rules I am revealing whether the FMC is gliding or swooping.
What time is the choice made then? Rules quote please.
Because at some point, a choice must be made in order for you to declare it.
There is no choice being made. Where are you seeing that in the rules?
The rules use DECLARE.
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.
This means per the rules the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is revealing which one as soon as it enters play.
grendel083 wrote: [The third option is simply the default movement for any Monstrous Creatures, since FMC's are MC's with extra rules.
This has been proven false repeatedly.
Not even once, it has not been proven, just saying it has doesn't make it so. Please quote a rule if you believe otherwise.
The FMC rule clearly states it's a MC with extra rules..
Yet again
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding
Show me where it says that you can use a default MC movement. You have two choices listed above. This is further confirmed by..
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
Again, no default MC movement allowed there. Your claim is again disproven.
col_impact wrote: This means per the rules the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is revealing which one as soon as it enters play.
This is pure assumption. You're creating a retroactive state for the model.
It must be in a flight mode when it goes into reserve in order to use Deep Strike. No rule allows this.
It's an assuption that the model is always in a flight mode even though any time before, or in fact during, a declaration, it could enter this state.
No rule allows a declaration of mode during this time. Your assumption is that it MUST be in one at this time. A state that you cannot prove with any rule.
A unit for example is not charging before a charge is declared. Your assumption is that it must be, that once declared the unit suddenly was charging before it was delcared.
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding
Show me where it says that you can use a default MC movement. You have two choices listed above. This is further confirmed by..
Two modes, show me a rule that proves either are used while it is in Reserve. The triggers for these rules are layed out, Reserve isn't one of them
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
Again, no default MC movement allowed there. Your claim is again disproven.
"At the start of it's move" - your own quote. You're using a rule that's invoked when a model is on the table, and trying to use it when in reserve. No rule lets you do this.
Prove it's Swooping or Zooming while in Reserve. Because until it is in one of those two flight modes, it is NOT described as moving like a Jump Unit.
Once again, you're invoking a rule the model is NOT qualified to use, just because it MIGHT become qualified for it later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The pub beckons Gentlemen. Sadly I must leave you for a time. If you wish to take the time to find a rules quote that states a FMC is either Swooping or Gliding while in Reserve (an actual quote, not an assumption), then that would be grand
col_impact wrote: This means per the rules the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is revealing which one as soon as it enters play.
This is pure assumption. You're creating a retroactive state for the model.
It must be in a flight mode when it goes into reserve in order to use Deep Strike. No rule allows this.
It's an assuption that the model is always in a flight mode even though any time before, or in fact during, a declaration, it could enter this state.
No rule allows a declaration of mode during this time. Your assumption is that it MUST be in one at this time. A state that you cannot prove with any rule.
A unit for example is not charging before a charge is declared. Your assumption is that it must be, that once declared the unit suddenly was charging before it was delcared.
I think you need to look up the definition of declare and proceed from there. The use of declare proves what I am saying and disproves your argument.
So grendel please correct me if im misunderstanding you,
You are arguing that the FMC does not have the deepstrike rule(at deployment) because of the following:
Prior to entering play the FMC moves like a MC,
upon entering play it can choose its flight mode, and at that point it gains the effects of glidin/'moving like Jump unit" and then at that point it gains the deepstrike rule. But because while in reserves it is neither swooping nor gliding it doesn't gain the benefit from them and therefore cannot deepstrike
is that correct?
No, but as you already noted, it IS in one of those modes already - it has to be, as you never choose to go into, you are either S or G at all times. Meaning you have the option to DS, as either mode allows for this
Its a superposition of the two modes that you resolve on deployment
col_impact wrote: I think you need to look up the definition of declare and proceed from there. The use of declare proves what I am saying and disproves your argument.
The assumption you're making, is that something must exist prior to it being declared. This is something the rules do not (in fact cannot) follow.
For example, you are not charging, before you declare it. Your assumption is that they were always charging (that they were charging before the game began, even while in reserve!).
Happyjew wrote: grendel, using simplified terms, please describe how a Flying Monstrous Creature moves.
When?
SaJeel wrote: So grendel please correct me if im misunderstanding you,
You are arguing that the FMC does not have the deepstrike rule(at deployment) because of the following:
Prior to entering play the FMC moves like a MC,
upon entering play it can choose its flight mode, and at that point it gains the effects of glidin/'moving like Jump unit" and then at that point it gains the deepstrike rule. But because while in reserves it is neither swooping nor gliding it doesn't gain the benefit from them and therefore cannot deepstrike
is that correct?
In a nutshell, in order to gain Deepstrike the unit needs to be "described as moving like a Jump Unit". Swooping and Gliding do this.
However, when in reserve, it is unable to declare one of these modes. So it isn't Swooping, and it isn't gliding. So how can you use a rule it's not allowed to use? How can you claim to be described as moving like a jump unit, when at that point you're not allowed to use the rules that describe it as moving like a jump unit?
As said before, you're trying to invoke a rule that the model doesn't qualify to use, purely because at some point later in the game it might be able to use it.
Anyway, the pub calls. Later
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote: No, but as you already noted, it IS in one of those modes already - it has to be, as you never choose to go into, you are either S or G at all times. Meaning you have the option to DS, as either mode allows for this
Its a superposition of the two modes that you resolve on deployment
That still follows the assumption that it must ALWAYS be in one of the two modes (I'd ask for a rules quote, but we both know there isn't one) and that it exists in a mode prior to it being declared (again, no rule says this). Until a rule says its in a flight mode, what proof is there it was in one before? And it is still a MC, and follows those rules as well.
Personal opinion and HIWPI:
In my personal opinion, Grendel is correct that due to the timing of the situation the model would not be able to gain the deep strike special rule. However, considering the fact that if the model flew off the table and was put into Ongoing reserves it COULD in fact deep strike back onto the table due to not being able to change flight modes. No longer flying would be changing flight modes, so it MUST still be swooping. Because of this, I would house rule it so that FMCs could Deep Strike at the beginning of the game as well, even though by a timing technicality they should not be able to.
col_impact wrote: I think you need to look up the definition of declare and proceed from there. The use of declare proves what I am saying and disproves your argument.
The assumption you're making, is that something must exist prior to it being declared. This is something the rules do not (in fact cannot) follow.
For example, you are not charging, before you declare it. Your assumption is that they were always charging (that they were charging before the game began, even while in reserve!).
I am not making any assumptions. I am using 'declare' correctly. Feel free to look up 'declare' in the dictionary and show how I am incorrectly using the word, instead of trying a straw man argument.
The rules use 'declare' and not 'choose to go into'. My argument is proved and yours is disproved
Prove it's in a Flight Mode prior to it being declared.
You've proved nothing so far, only posted this assumption.
Actual rules quote please.
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.
This literally means the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is REVEALING which one as soon as it enters play.
I should clarify why I believe Grendel is correct in this.
In the movement phase you may choose either swooping or gliding. Grendel posits that prior to that decision you are doing neither and so do not gain the special rules associated with those actions. The others posit that it does not matter, because since those are the only two options, whichever you assume it is doing it gains the special rule, and should therefore already have it since it does not have options to do anything BUT those two.
Similarily, In the shooting phase you may run or shoot. Prior to that decision which are you doing? Grendel's side of the argument holds up here while the others do not.
This is why I consider my decision to grant deep strike to FMCs at the beginning of the game a House Rule and not RAW.
Prove it's in a Flight Mode prior to it being declared.
You've proved nothing so far, only posted this assumption.
Actual rules quote please.
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.
This literally means the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is REVEALING which one as soon as it enters play.
Again, assumption and interpretation. It could be declared on turn 4. Prove it was in a flight mode all the time it was in reserve, and before the game when entering it. Proof please.
Prove something exists prior to it being declared, with rules. Your above quote fails to do this.
As Bojazz above has correctly observed, you are not charging before it is declared.
Prove you're in a Flight Mode before it is declared.
Prove it's in a Flight Mode prior to it being declared.
You've proved nothing so far, only posted this assumption.
Actual rules quote please.
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.
This literally means the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is REVEALING which one as soon as it enters play.
So you choose which mode the FMC is in prior to deploying it? Are we supposed to write that down somewhere before revealing it?
I declare this island belongs to me. Was the island always belonging to me? Why must the word 'declare' mean that the FMC was always in one of those two flight modes?
What about if you choose NOT to move a FMC during it's turn?
A FMC declares it's flight mode at the beginning of it's MOVE. Not it's movement phase. The Swooping/Gliding rules only last until the beginning of the FMC's next turn. Therefore if you choose not to move a FMC, you are neither Gliding OR Swooping until you declare it as doing so when you move it.
This proves that a FMC can be neither Gliding or Swooping at a point in the game. So why not in reserves?
Prove it's in a Flight Mode prior to it being declared.
You've proved nothing so far, only posted this assumption.
Actual rules quote please.
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.
This literally means the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is REVEALING which one as soon as it enters play.
Again, assumption and interpretation. It could be declared on turn 4. Prove it was in a flight mode all the time it was in reserve, and before the game when entering it. Proof please.
Prove something exists prior to it being declared, with rules. Your above quote fails to do this.
As Bojazz above has correctly observed, you are not charging before it is declared.
Prove you're in a Flight Mode before it is declared.
The burden of proof is on you at this point since you go directly against the definition of declare.
You need to prove that the rules say that you are choosing to go into Swooping or Gliding mode from some nonGliding, nonSwooping state. Declare means you are REVEALING whether you are in Swooping or Gliding mode and that no change of state is presently occuring.
col_impact wrote: The burden of proof is on you at this point since you go directly against the definition of declare.
You need to prove that the rules say that you are choosing to go into Swooping or Gliding mode from some nonGliding, nonSwooping state. Declare means you are REVEALING whether you are in Swooping or Gliding mode and that no change of state is presently occuring.
The definition of Declare is: formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).
Now prove that the model is in a Flight Mode prior to declaring it.
col_impact wrote: The burden of proof is on you at this point since you go directly against the definition of declare.
You need to prove that the rules say that you are choosing to go into Swooping or Gliding mode from some nonGliding, nonSwooping state. Declare means you are REVEALING whether you are in Swooping or Gliding mode and that no change of state is presently occuring.
The definition of Declare is: formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).
Now prove that the model is in a Flight Mode prior to declaring it.
Show source for definition of declare. Hallmark cards is not a solid source.
col_impact wrote: The burden of proof is on you at this point since you go directly against the definition of declare.
You need to prove that the rules say that you are choosing to go into Swooping or Gliding mode from some nonGliding, nonSwooping state. Declare means you are REVEALING whether you are in Swooping or Gliding mode and that no change of state is presently occuring.
The definition of Declare is: formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).
Now prove that the model is in a Flight Mode prior to declaring it.
Show source for definition of declare. Hallmark cards is not a solid source.
Given the country this rulebook was written there is only one valid source for definitions:
- say something in a solemn and emphatic manner.
"he declared that he never revises his prose"
synonyms: proclaim, announce, state, reveal, air, voice, articulate, express, vent, set forth, publicize, broadcast; More
- formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).
"Spain declared war on Britain in 1796"
synonyms: assert, maintain, state, affirm, contend, argue, insist, hold, profess, claim, avow, swear; formalaver
"he declared that they were guilty"
- pronounce or assert (a person or thing) to be something specified.
"the mansion was declared a fire hazard"
synonyms: show to be, reveal as, confirm as, prove to be, attest to someone's being
"his speech declared him to be a gentleman"
- openly align oneself for or against (a party or position) in a dispute.
"Mr. Roosevelt had declared for “a new deal.”"
announce oneself as a candidate for an election.
"he declared last April"
- reveal one's intentions or identity.
archaic
- express feelings of love to someone.
"she waited in vain for him to declare himself"
Both definitions are there. But since you don't make a prior choice in flight mode, 'to reveal' doesn't really make sense.
col_impact wrote: The burden of proof is on you at this point since you go directly against the definition of declare.
You need to prove that the rules say that you are choosing to go into Swooping or Gliding mode from some nonGliding, nonSwooping state. Declare means you are REVEALING whether you are in Swooping or Gliding mode and that no change of state is presently occuring.
The definition of Declare is: formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).
Now prove that the model is in a Flight Mode prior to declaring it.
Show source for definition of declare. Hallmark cards is not a solid source.
Given the country this rulebook was written there is only one valid source for definitions:
Since we are dealing with a state or condition (in this case a flight mode) this definition fits far better than yours.
For easy reference it's 1.1
You're using 1.4
Even in your definition, there is merely the announcement of a state that is already in existence. There is indeed no change of state happening. No choice is being made. The player is declaring that the FMC is in Gliding or Swooping mode for the game state. There is no language to indicate a change has been made from a nonGliding or nonSwooping state, merely that a statement to the factuality of Swooping or Gliding is being announced.
The burden on you is to show how a choice is being made that is changing the state of affairs from a nonSwooping, nonGliding mode to a Swooping or Gliding one.
Col Impact, I've already shown that you can be in a non-gliding, non-swooping state on the previous page. I also referenced that post AGAIN on the previous page last time you asked for proof. Do you have me on ignore or something? or are you just not reading all the posts?
edit for elaboration so people don't have to go scrolling through pages: - I move my FMC and declare that it is Gliding until the beginning of its next turn. - Next turn I do not move the FMC, and therefore cannot declare Swooping or Gliding. - He is no longer swooping or gliding for an entire turn and is treated as a regular MC.
Technically, EVERY time you announce Swooping/Gliding, you are changing his state from a non-gliding non-swooping state because the previous movement mode's effects END at the beginning of your turn.
col_impact wrote: Even in your definition, there is merely the announcement of a state that is already in existence.
The definition says "beginning of". It's starts when declared. The rules follow this (for example a charge starts when declared, not before). If you wish to claim otherwise, you'll need to prove it was in a Flight Mode prior to it being declared. A rules quote will be required.
There is indeed no change of state happening. No choice is being made. The player is declaring that the FMC is in Gliding or Swooping mode for the game state. There is no language to indicate a change has been made from a nonGliding or nonSwooping state, merely that a statement to the factuality of Swooping or Gliding is being announced.
Its the begining of a state. Previous state is not important. You're declaring a state.
The burden on you is to show how a choice is being made that is changing the state of affairs from a nonSwooping, nonGliding mode to a Swooping or Gliding one.
Previous state doesn't matter. You're declaring then begining of a state. There are two. How you intend to declare one of two without choosing is a mystery known only to you, and one that doesn't effect this debate.
Can you prove it was in a Flight Mode prior to a Flight Mode being declared?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SaJeel wrote: 2) An FMC is described as 'moving like' a jump monstrous creature
Please just tell me in as simple and clear a manner as possible siting rules that the above two points are incorrect
It's the Swooping and Gliding rules that describe it as this, correct?
If you're not allowed to use those rules, how can you use those rules?
Sajeel:
a FMC is only described as "moving like" a jump monstrous creature when it is swooping or gliding. If you can prove that it can be in a state where it is not swooping or gliding (like I have above) then there IS a time when it is NOT described as "moving like" a jump monstrous creature. So it's current mode does, indeed, matter.
Regardless of its Flight mode, the following statement is true:
A FMC is described as moving "like a Jump Monstrous Creature." I guess this is what my problem is,I am reading it like this.
If within a unit (FMC) is described as "moving like a jump unit" it gains the rules of a jump unit
Within FMC, FMCs are described as 'moving like a jump unit' therefore they gain the rules of a jump unit
Please disprove the above statement or show how it is a fallacy.
Understand I 100% understand what Grendel is saying, the above statement is the only thing that is preventing me from 100% agreeing with him
That is incorrect. It is not "regardless of it's current mode". If it is gliding, it moves like a JMC If it is swooping, it moves like a JMC If it is not, then it does not move like a JMC
SaJeel wrote: Regardless of its Flight mode, the following statement is true:
A FMC is described as moving "like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
If you're not Swooping, and not Gliding, can you make this statement without reference to these two rules?
Those two rules belong to the FMC tho
Wait i gots it!
The key to your argument lies in the the wording for gliding and swooping. I can run through the rules and reach a point where i never read the statement "like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
Yeah. Just because it can be described as moving like a JMC at two points in time doesn't mean that it moves as a JMC at ALL points in time. So it only has access to the JMC rules while it is moving like a JMC (either Swooping or Gliding). For instance, consider the following:
- I do not move my FMC, and so do not declare Gliding or Swooping. - During my opponent's turn the FMC fails a leadership test and must fall back. - I do not reference the rules for Swooping, since he is not Swooping. I do not reference the rules for Gliding, since he is not Gliding. What I am told is that he is a Monstrous Creature, and so he falls back like a monstrous creature. 2D6" Fall back instead of 3D6" fall back.
I want to deepstrike my Hive Tyrant
So i start reading the rules
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding" it isnt so I cant continue applying that rule
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping", It isnt so i cant contunue applying that rule either
When a FMC is in reserves i cannot reach the statement " it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature"
RAW i now agree with grendel an Bojazz
And thats a nifty trick Bojazz,
Another point that kinda backs this up is the FMCs in the Daemons book have Deepstrike listed as a special rule
The real key to this is that the rules ask "if it is gliding or swooping" it doesnt just state that gliding and swooping are rules that the FMC has.
It's important to note that I HOUSE RULE it to allow FMCs to deep strike at the beginning of the game. This situation is a timing technicality. For instance if the FMC leaves combat airspace while swooping, he is specifically disallowed changing flight modes while he is in reserves meaning he MUST still be swooping. So he can deep strike back in from Ongoing reserves. Because of this inconsistency, I allow my opponents to Deep Strike their FMCs at the beginning of the game. But it is a House Rule, and this forum is dedicated to finding out RAW.
Bojazz wrote: It's important to note that I HOUSE RULE it to allow FMCs to deep strike at the beginning of the game. This situation is a timing technicality. For instance if the FMC leaves combat airspace while swooping, he is specifically disallowed changing flight modes while he is in reserves meaning he MUST still be swooping. So he can deep strike back in from Ongoing reserves. Because of this inconsistency, I allow my opponents to Deep Strike their FMCs at the beginning of the game. But it is a House Rule, and this forum is dedicated to finding out RAW.
Can you quote some rules for allowing a unit to Deep Strike from Ongoing Reserves? I didn't think this was possible for a FMC.
- In order to enter Ongoing reserves it must move off the table via swooping. - While in ongoing reserves it is Disallowed from changing flight modes. No Longer swooping would be changing it, so it MUST still be in swooping mode. - While in swooping mode it moves like a JMC, and so gains the deep strike special rule. This can be found under the "Leaving Combat Airspace" section on p69.
Bojazz wrote: - In order to enter Ongoing reserves it must move off the table via swooping.
- While in ongoing reserves it is Disallowed from changing flight modes. No Longer swooping would be changing it, so it MUST still be in swooping mode.
- While in swooping mode it moves like a JMC, and so gains the deep strike special rule.
And where is the link between 'deep strike' and 'ongoing reserves'? From my reading of the BRB, 'deep strike reserves' is a totally different form of reserves from 'ongoing reserves'.
Bojazz wrote: - In order to enter Ongoing reserves it must move off the table via swooping.
- While in ongoing reserves it is Disallowed from changing flight modes. No Longer swooping would be changing it, so it MUST still be in swooping mode.
- While in swooping mode it moves like a JMC, and so gains the deep strike special rule.
It's also disallowed from moving like a Jump unit, and therefore doesn't get the DSUSR ?
Why don't you just let it go. it was never meant to be.
Wait so..... I haven't heard this before, are you not allowed to deep strike from ongoing reserves whatsoever? Man, that makes swooping hawks a LOT less effective if that's true. Can someone link me to a thread discussing this? I'd like to learn.
EDIT Upon looking at Ongoing Reserve, it describes itself as "a unit entering reserves partway through the game". So Ongoing reserve IS indeed reserve.
If they are separate that means my swooping hawks could enter play from ongoing reserve and skyleap off the same turn, since it is worded "This (a skyleap) cannot be done in the same turn that the unit arrives from Reserve." If Ongoing Reserve is separate from Reserve, then this entire line of the special rule is only referring to the first turn of the game...
Zimko "Deep Strike Reserve" is not actually a different thing. In order to Deep Strike you must have started the game "in reserve" and told your opponent that they're going to deep strike, which is "sometimes referred to as deep strike reserve".
If my swooping hawks begin the game in reserve and I announce they're deep striking and then enter reserve throughout the game (referred to as ongoing reserve) via skyleap, they can then deep strike again.
Why would it be different for a FMC that is in swooping mode? They are described as moving like JMCs (granting them the deep strike special rule), and are specifically disallowed from changing this.
It's a little confusing but basicly FMC can not Deep Strike from ongoing reserves since RAW they were not held in Deep Strike Reserves at the start of the game. Swoopings Hawks however typically are held in deep strike reserves and thus can deep strike during the game.
Edit: However, as like most of these kinds of threads, it ended with 'the rules on this aren't clear so lets move on'. So interpret how you wish.
grendel083 wrote: []Two modes, show me a rule that proves either are used while it is in Reserve. The triggers for these rules are layed out, Reserve isn't one of them
So you concede now that there is no third mode. Good. Now show how a FMC can move without being described as Jump.
Bojazz wrote: Col Impact, I've already shown that you can be in a non-gliding, non-swooping state on the previous page. I also referenced that post AGAIN on the previous page last time you asked for proof. Do you have me on ignore or something? or are you just not reading all the posts?
edit for elaboration so people don't have to go scrolling through pages:
- I move my FMC and declare that it is Gliding until the beginning of its next turn.
- Next turn I do not move the FMC, and therefore cannot declare Swooping or Gliding.
- He is no longer swooping or gliding for an entire turn and is treated as a regular MC.
Technically, EVERY time you announce Swooping/Gliding, you are changing his state from a non-gliding non-swooping state because the previous movement mode's effects END at the beginning of your turn.
If this line of reasoning were correct, an FMC could go from swooping one turn directly to charging the next turn, correct?
turn 1 swoop. choose not to move turn 2 so MC mode. turn 2 assault in MC mode.
Since you only declare as you move and charging is moving, you would have to declare swooping or gliding when you make the charge move. It would have to be gliding though since you would be disallowed from charging if you chose Swooping.
Same goes with the falling back, however fall back distance is decided BEFORE you make the fall back move, so you'd still fall back 2D6". Although I suppose you could choose Swooping and not fall back at all.
yay for broken rules!
Also Zimko, you are absolutely correct. Since a FMC could not be declared as deep striking at the beginning of the game, it cannot deep strike subsequently in the game regardless of whether or not it has the rule. I will have to change my house rule accordingly. Thanks for the linked thread!
Bojazz wrote: Col Impact, I've already shown that you can be in a non-gliding, non-swooping state on the previous page. I also referenced that post AGAIN on the previous page last time you asked for proof. Do you have me on ignore or something? or are you just not reading all the posts?
edit for elaboration so people don't have to go scrolling through pages:
- I move my FMC and declare that it is Gliding until the beginning of its next turn.
- Next turn I do not move the FMC, and therefore cannot declare Swooping or Gliding.
- He is no longer swooping or gliding for an entire turn and is treated as a regular MC.
Technically, EVERY time you announce Swooping/Gliding, you are changing his state from a non-gliding non-swooping state because the previous movement mode's effects END at the beginning of your turn.
If this line of reasoning were correct, an FMC could go from swooping one turn directly to charging the next turn, correct?
turn 1 swoop. choose not to move turn 2 so MC mode. turn 2 assault in MC mode.
Bojazz's FMCs just got alot more powerful. Sadly this interpretation ignores the requirement that you "must" declare a movement mode at the start of its move.
Fragile - how does it ignore that? If I don't move the FMC, it does not have a "start of it's move". it does not move at all. so there is nothing to declare. The instant it moves (fall back, charge, etc) I must declare it. If the rule said I had to declare at the start of the movement phase then you would be correct. however, it does not.
Bojazz wrote: Since you only declare as you move and charging is moving,
Charging is not Moving. They are two separate functions.
you would have to declare swooping or gliding when you make the charge move. It would have to be gliding though since you would be disallowed from charging if you chose Swooping.
You claim there is a third movement mode though. So there is no restriction from swooping. Your being hypocritical otherwise.
Same goes with the falling back, however fall back distance is decided BEFORE you make the fall back move, so you'd still fall back 2D6". Although I suppose you could choose Swooping and not fall back at all.
yay for broken rules!!
The rules are not broken. Your interpretation is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bojazz wrote: Fragile - how does it ignore that? If I don't move the FMC, it does not have a "start of it's move". it does not move at all. so there is nothing to declare. The instant it moves (fall back, charge, etc) I must declare it. If the rule said I had to declare at the start of the movement phase then you would be correct. however, it does not.
In order to charge you must "move" the initial charger. Charging is moving.
I don't claim there is a third movement mode. I claim there is a third state of being that is neither swooping nor gliding, which occurs when the FMC has not moved yet. It is not interpretation.
I am not claiming that you can "Not Move a Swooping FMC", but you CAN "not move a Gliding FMC". You can also "not move a FMC that is neither Swooping nor Gliding."
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just a heads up, I've got to head out for a few hours so I'll pick this up when I get back if there is further discussion to be had. happy wargaming till then!
Bojazz wrote: In order to charge you must "move" the initial charger. Charging is moving.
I don't claim there is a third movement mode. I claim there is a third state of being that is neither swooping nor gliding, which occurs when the FMC has not moved yet. It is not interpretation.
I am not claiming that you can "Not Move a Swooping FMC", but you CAN "not move a Gliding FMC". You can also "not move a FMC that is neither Swooping nor Gliding."
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just a heads up, I've got to head out for a few hours so I'll pick this up when I get back if there is further discussion to be had. happy wargaming till then!
Your interpretation collapses under its own weight.
So can I choose to Swoop and then stop dead in my tracks or not in this special MC mode that is not mentioned in the rules? How come I can switch to that special mode from Gliding mode (by not moving) but not Swooping mode, as you claim above?
And if we accept your interpretation then this rule never gets triggered.
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
However, that rule does get triggered when you change from Swooping to Gliding because you do not go from Swooping to 3rd nonFlight mode at Start of Next Turn to Gliding.
my FMC has no mode associated to it. I start the move and I declare Swooping - cool, I MUST move a minimum distance.
alternate scenario My FMC has no mode associated to it. I start the move and declare gliding - cool I can move or not move however much I want.
alternate alternate scenario my FMC has no mode associated to it. I do not start the move and so do not declare a movement mode. I have no requirement to move.
Flying modes are only in effect until the start of your next turn.
Chronlogically: start of turn - movement mode ends start of movement phase - your FMC has no flight mode associated with it here. movement phase - if you move, you must declare a new flight mode
What flight mode is your FMC in during your movement phase before you have moved it? You have rules saying that the previous flight modes have ended by that time, and you have not yet declared a new movement method. So what flight mode is it in? The answer is Neither.
If you wish to interpret that, then that is fine. However it is not RAW. Strictly RAW, your movement mode is reset to "none" at the beginning of EACH of your turns, so selecting any flight mode is a change.
Bojazz wrote: If you wish to interpret that, then that is fine. However it is not RAW. Strictly RAW, your movement mode is reset to "none" at the beginning of EACH of your turns, so selecting any flight mode is a change.
An alternate interpretation is that the FMC is set to either Gliding or Swooping at all times and you must declare (reveal) what that is at certain times.
So we going to play that FMC can deep strike or that FMC cannot charge?
That would not be an interpretation, that would be a house rule. and as I have stated previously several times, I currently house rule it that a FMC can deep strike.
Bojazz wrote: That would not be an interpretation, that would be a house rule. and as I have stated previously several times, I currently house rule it that a FMC can deep strike.
Its a RAW interpretation that runs directly off dictionary supported meaning of declare.
Of course we can follow your definition of declare and come up with an FMC that cannot assault.
My RAW interpretation works through and through. Yours causes profound breaks elsewhere.
It's a chicken egg circular debate. Either you believe they can't as they don't have access to the rule until you choose a flight mode, or you believe they can as a FMC always moves like jump irrelevant of the mode and therefore do have access, both are logical.
This will only be clarified IMO either way through FAQ
Nem wrote: It's a chicken egg circular debate. Either you believe they can't as they don't have access to the rule until you choose a flight mode, or you believe they can as a FMC always moves like jump irrelevant of the mode and therefore do have access, both are logical.
This will only be clarified IMO either way through FAQ
Unless you take the dictionary definition of declare as I am using it. Then the RAW holds up all the way through with no profound breakages.
Nem wrote: It's a chicken egg circular debate. Either you believe they can't as they don't have access to the rule until you choose a flight mode, or you believe they can as a FMC always moves like jump irrelevant of the mode and therefore do have access, both are logical.
This will only be clarified IMO either way through FAQ
Unless you take the dictionary definition of declare as I am using it. Then the RAW holds up all the way through with no profound breakages.
No, the entire "Declare means you choose earlier" argument does not work. You would need rules along the lines of:
At the start of the game, choose your flight mode, as soon as it enters play, you must declare to your opponent (etc)
Then you would be correct: There is a timing for the choice, and a timing for the "reveal" as you so insist. But as it stands there is no RaW telling you what mode you are in until "as soon as it enters play" happens.
Now by RaW: "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike"
And, in conclusion, and what Grendel has kept arguing:
"When placing the unit in Reserve" Vs "as soon as it enters play" Which happens first?
Now you either have 2 options: Choose above which comes first, or find another RaW with timing that will happen before "When placing the unit in Reserve" and lets you know what flight mode you are in.
Until then, Schrödinger's FMC will be Gliding AND Swooping AND doing none of the 2 at the same time...
grendel083 wrote: Two modes, show me a rule that proves either are used while it is in Reserve. The triggers for these rules are layed out, Reserve isn't one of them
So you concede now that there is no third mode. Good. Now show how a FMC can move without being described as Jump.
Two Flight modes, the standard movement of any MC is not a Flight Mode. The rest has been shown many times. Now show the model is in a flight mode when in reserve.
col_impact wrote: Unless you take the dictionary definition of declare as I am using it. Then the RAW holds up all the way through with no profound breakages.
Which definition are you using now?
The "reveal" one simply doesn't work, as there's no rules allowing the selection of one of the two flight modes before the declaration.
The idea that you "reveal" a flight mode (without choosing apparently, making the declaration impossible), and that this somehow retroactively puts it into a flight mode before the declaration, is not only impossible but also isn't supported by rules.
grendel083 wrote: Two modes, show me a rule that proves either are used while it is in Reserve. The triggers for these rules are layed out, Reserve isn't one of them
So you concede now that there is no third mode. Good. Now show how a FMC can move without being described as Jump.
Two Flight modes, the standard movement of any MC is not a Flight Mode. The rest has been shown many times. Now show the model is in a flight mode when in reserve.
col_impact wrote: Unless you take the dictionary definition of declare as I am using it. Then the RAW holds up all the way through with no profound breakages.
Which definition are you using now?
The "reveal" one simply doesn't work, as there's no rules allowing the selection of one of the two flight modes before the declaration.
The idea that you "reveal" a flight mode (without choosing apparently, making the declaration impossible), and that this somehow retroactively puts it into a flight mode before the declaration, is not only impossible but also isn't supported by rules.
Which definition of 'declare' are you using now? The one that makes assault with an FMC impossible?
Also, is there any rule keeping me from putting the FMC in Deep Strike Reserve?
The act of putting it into Deep Strike Reserve, makes "it always counts as being in Swooping mode"
I put the unit in reserve and tell the opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike (putting it in Deep Strike Reserve) and with that designation Swooping mode is turned to always on
Which definition of 'declare' are you using now? The one that makes assault with an FMC impossible?
I couldn't make any sense of that entire line of reasoning. I'd use the definition "formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).". I believe this is the definition Grendel is using too. It fits the best.
Same definition I've always been using, the one that fits the situation most appropriately.
It doesn't involve creating impossible states, or retroactivley changing rules. No game system can support this.
The one that makes assault with an FMC impossible?
Ah, the tangent you were discussing with Bojazz. Not something I've brought up. Is that the debate where if you skip the FMC's move, it's not counted as being in either Flight Mode? Not one I support I'm afraid. Although it doesn't state it explicitly, the rules imply that once selected a FMC will stay in the same Flight Mode until changed. You quoted the rule yourself that implies this I believe.
Zimko wrote: I couldn't make any sense of that entire line of reasoning. I'd use the definition "formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).". I believe this is the definition Grendel is using too. It fits the best.
Absolutely. A Flight Mode would certainly fit the description of a State or Condition.
The "Reveal" definition cannot work, as no rule allows for a selection before the reveal. And apparently with col_impacts theory, you can never choose, so you have to reveal one mode of two without choosing between them (which creates an impossible situation), and then apply this retroactively all the back to before the game began, for when it goes into reserve. Madness I tell you
Which definition of 'declare' are you using now? The one that makes assault with an FMC impossible?
I couldn't make any sense of that entire line of reasoning. I'd use the definition "formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).". I believe this is the definition Grendel is using too. It fits the best.
If you adhere strictly to that definition you will have times in the turn where no Flight mode is in place. So is that the definition you are using?
Same definition I've always been using, the one that fits the situation most appropriately.
It doesn't involve creating impossible states, or retroactivley changing rules. No game system can support this.
The one that makes assault with an FMC impossible?
Ah, the tangent you were discussing with Bojazz. Not something I've brought up. Is that the debate where if you skip the FMC's move, it's not counted as being in either Flight Mode? Not one I support I'm afraid. Although it doesn't state it explicitly, the rules imply that once selected a FMC will stay in the same Flight Mode until changed. You quoted the rule yourself that implies this I believe.
The definition of declare you are using cause there to be time in the turn where no flight mode is active.
Also, is there any rule keeping me from putting the FMC in Deep Strike Reserve?
The act of putting it into Deep Strike Reserve, makes "it always counts as being in Swooping mode"
I put the unit in reserve and tell the opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike (putting it in Deep Strike Reserve) and with that designation Swooping mode is turned to always on
col_impact wrote: If you adhere strictly to that definition you will have times in the turn where no Flight mode is in place.
Only when in Reserve. There is no rule anywhere stating a Flight Mode must always be in place. The rules seem to have no problem with their being no Flight mode in Reserve. Claiming they must at all times is an invention not found in the rules.
Also, is there any rule keeping me from putting the FMC in Deep Strike Reserve?
Lack of the Deep Strike rule for starters.
The act of putting it into Deep Strike Reserve, makes "it always counts as being in Swooping mode"
I put the unit in reserve and tell the opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike (putting it in Deep Strike Reserve) and with that designation Swooping mode is turned to always on
It is only put into Swooping mode when arriving from Deep Strike, not before. Also there is no Declaration on that part, so your "reveal" theory doesn't apply.
Only when entering from Reserve (as in non-Deep reserve) is a Declaration made (or changing a Flight mode, but since we're talking about deployment this won't apply).
col_impact wrote: If you adhere strictly to that definition you will have times in the turn where no Flight mode is in place.
Only when in Reserve. There is no rule anywhere stating a Flight Mode must always be in place. The rules seem to have no problem with their being no Flight mode in Reserve. Claiming they must at all times is an invention not found in the rules.
Also, is there any rule keeping me from putting the FMC in Deep Strike Reserve?
Lack of the Deep Strike rule for starters.
The act of putting it into Deep Strike Reserve, makes "it always counts as being in Swooping mode"
I put the unit in reserve and tell the opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike (putting it in Deep Strike Reserve) and with that designation Swooping mode is turned to always on
It is only put into Swooping mode when arriving from Deep Strike, not before. Also there is no Declaration on that part, so your "reveal" theory doesn't apply.
Only when entering from Reserve (as in non-Deep reserve) is a Declaration made (or changing a Flight mode, but since we're talking about deployment this won't apply).
There is no restriction on me designating it to be in Deep Strike reserves. The capability turns on with the designation.
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
col_impact wrote: If you adhere strictly to that definition you will have times in the turn where no Flight mode is in place.
Only when in Reserve. There is no rule anywhere stating a Flight Mode must always be in place. The rules seem to have no problem with their being no Flight mode in Reserve. Claiming they must at all times is an invention not found in the rules.
Spoiler:
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
Per your definition of declare there will be a gap in the turn there where no Flight mode is in place, correct?
BRB Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
There is no restriction on me designating it to be in Deep Strike reserves. The capability turns on with the designation.
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
When arriving from Deep Strike it enters Swooping mode, as you quote shows.
It must have deep strike before the game starts, that rules won't give it Swooping until at least turn 2 (in most cases).
It doesn't retroactively give it Swooping. No rule gives it Swooping while in Reserve.
Always counts, does not mean "Has always counted". You can't apply a rule retroactively.
And there is no Declaration when arriving from Deep Strike, so your Retroactive "Reveal" theory also cannot apply.
col_impact wrote: Per your definition of declare there will be a gap in the turn there where no Flight mode is in place, correct?
There will always be a flight mode in place when this rule is called. This rule requires it to be on the table, that means it will have deployed, triggering one of the Flight Modes.
BRB Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
There is no restriction on me designating it to be in Deep Strike reserves. The capability turns on with the designation.
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
When arriving from Deep Strike it enters Swooping mode, as you quote shows.
It must have deep strike before the game starts, that rules won't give it Swooping until at least turn 2 (in most cases).
It doesn't retroactively give it Swooping. No rule gives it Swooping while in Reserve.
Always counts, does not mean "Has always counted". You can't apply a rule retroactively.
And there is no Declaration when arriving from Deep Strike, so your Retroactive "Reveal" theory also cannot apply.
col_impact wrote: Per your definition of declare there will be a gap in the turn there where no Flight mode is in place, correct?
There will always be a flight mode in place when this rule is called. This rule requires it to be on the table, that means it will have deployed, triggering one of the Flight Modes.
I just designate it as arriving in Deep Strike reserve then when it arrives it counts as "being in Swooping mode". It does not enter Swooping mode as you are wrongly reading.
Also, per your use of declare, every turn there will be a gap where the FMC has no mode, correct?
Spoiler:
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
Also, per your use of declare, every turn there will be a gap where the FMC has no mode, correct?
You mean because it lasts until the start of the next turn, and a new one isn't chosen until the start of its move? That can create a gap no matter what definition you use. "Reveal" doesn't change that either, as there is still a set duration.
Are you then going to claim that is goes from "No Flight mode" to "A Flight Mode" and counts as a change? Rather than than consider the change to be different to the one used last turn?
If you take that meaning of change, you'll create propblems. Including if you use "Reveal" as it still only lasts until the start of the next turn.
And are you still claiming this idea that you must "reveal" without choosing? So we are still in the land of impossible situations?
col_impact wrote: I just designate it as arriving in Deep Strike reserve then when it arrives it counts as "being in Swooping mode". It does not enter Swooping mode as you are wrongly reading.
How do you take that to mean it was always in Swooping mode all along? You're Retroactively adding a rule.
So ignoring the fact you've broken the Deep Strike rule of placing a unit in Deep Strike reserve without Deep Strike... What if it doesn't arrive from Deep Strike reserve? For example you fail 2 reserve rolls and the game ends due to you being tabled.
The FMC never arrives, so never counts as being Swooping. So you've placed a model into Deep Strike Reserve illegally, as you are unable to Retroactively add your rule.
grendel083 wrote: [Two Flight modes, the standard movement of any MC is not a Flight Mode. The rest has been shown many times. Now show the model is in a flight mode when in reserve.
You continue with this despite being proven wrong time and again. The "additional rules" that you quote include the movement rules which replace the MC movement. This completely debunks your entire argument. But you conveniently ignore it because you know it kills your argument.
The BRB clearly states that FMCs "move like Jump". The Jump rules then give them DS. Period.
col_impact wrote: I just designate it as arriving in Deep Strike reserve then when it arrives it counts as "being in Swooping mode". It does not enter Swooping mode as you are wrongly reading.
How do you take that to mean it was always in Swooping mode all along? You're Retroactively adding a rule.
So ignoring the fact you've broken the Deep Strike rule of placing a unit in Deep Strike reserve without Deep Strike... What if it doesn't arrive from Deep Strike reserve? For example you fail 2 reserve rolls and the game ends due to you being tabled.
The FMC never arrives, so never counts as being Swooping. So you've placed a model into Deep Strike Reserve illegally, as you are unable to Retroactively add your rule.
There is nothing keeping me from designating it as arriving via Deep Strike Reserve.
grendel083 wrote: [Two Flight modes, the standard movement of any MC is not a Flight Mode. The rest has been shown many times. Now show the model is in a flight mode when in reserve.
You continue with this despite being proven wrong time and again. The "additional rules" that you quote include the movement rules which replace the MC movement. This completely debunks your entire argument. But you conveniently ignore it because you know it kills your argument.
The BRB clearly states that FMCs "move like Jump". The Jump rules then give them DS. Period.
It's not been proven once. I keep asking for this proof.
Please quote the rule that a Flight Mode must always, at all times, be selected (including Reserve). Until you can do that, you're invoking a rule you have no permission to use.
Then quote a rule allowing you to choose a Flight Mode while in reserve.
Please actaully come up with some rules, rather than just saying "has been proven wrong" when you havn't presented a single rule.
col_impact wrote: There is nothing keeping me from designating it as arriving via Deep Strike Reserve.
You don't "designating it as arriving via Deep Strike Reserve". That's a made up sentence.
Yes there is something preventing you from placing a unit into Deep Strike Reserve. The lack of Deep Strike! You're trying to place it in there because it might later gain the rules, then apply it retroactively. No rule supports this.
Also, per your use of declare, every turn there will be a gap where the FMC has no mode, correct?
You mean because it lasts until the start of the next turn, and a new one isn't chosen until the start of its move? That can create a gap no matter what definition you use. "Reveal" doesn't change that either, as there is still a set duration.
Are you then going to claim that is goes from "No Flight mode" to "A Flight Mode" and counts as a change? Rather than than consider the change to be different to the one used last turn?
If you take that meaning of change, you'll create propblems. Including if you use "Reveal" as it still only lasts until the start of the next turn.
And are you still claiming this idea that you must "reveal" without choosing? So we are still in the land of impossible situations?
declare as used in the game means "make an official proclamation". It does not coincide with choice, although it can. You are adding in the choice. Declare only makes a statement as to the state of things and the state of things could be retroactively true.
grendel083 wrote: [Two Flight modes, the standard movement of any MC is not a Flight Mode. The rest has been shown many times. Now show the model is in a flight mode when in reserve.
You continue with this despite being proven wrong time and again. The "additional rules" that you quote include the movement rules which replace the MC movement. This completely debunks your entire argument. But you conveniently ignore it because you know it kills your argument.
The BRB clearly states that FMCs "move like Jump". The Jump rules then give them DS. Period.
It's not been proven once. I keep asking for this proof.
Please quote the rule that a Flight Mode must always, at all times, be selected (including Reserve). Until you can do that, you're invoking a rule you have no permission to use.
Then quote a rule allowing you to choose a Flight Mode while in reserve.
Please actaully come up with some rules, rather than just saying "has been proven wrong" when you havn't presented a single rule.
col_impact wrote: There is nothing keeping me from designating it as arriving via Deep Strike Reserve.
You don't "designating it as arriving via Deep Strike Reserve". That's a made up sentence.
Yes there is something preventing you from placing a unit into Deep Strike Reserve. The lack of Deep Strike! You're trying to place it in there because it might later gain the rules, then apply it retroactively. No rule supports this.
Per the rules, I simply tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike
col_impact wrote: declare as used in the game means "make an official proclamation". It does not coincide with choice, although it can. You are adding in the choice. Declare only makes a statement as to the state of things and the state of things could be retroactively true.
So you want to declare and Retroactively apply one of two rules without ever choosing between them, good luck with that.
You're creating more than one impossible situation.
For one, if the game ends before it arrives, you've placed it in Deep Strike Reserve illegally. Shall we retroactivle ignore this break of rules, and pretent we never did it?
Per the rules, I simply tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike
Per the rules you need Deep Strike, when you're delaring it you don't have it (means you're breaking a rule by decalring it). You're just trying to count on it getting it later.
So each subsequent turn, when you 'declare' a FMC is Swooping you aren't making a choice, you are merely stating what mode it is in? Great so an FMC can never change modes?
col_impact wrote: declare as used in the game means "make an official proclamation". It does not coincide with choice, although it can. You are adding in the choice. Declare only makes a statement as to the state of things and the state of things could be retroactively true.
So you want to declare and Retroactively apply one of two rules without ever choosing between them, good luck with that.
You're creating more than one impossible situation.
For one, if the game ends before it arrives, you've placed it in Deep Strike Reserve illegally. Shall we retroactivle ignore this break of rules, and pretent we never did it?
Per the rules, I simply tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike
Per the rules you need Deep Strike, when you're delaring it you don't have it. You're just trying to count on it getting it later.
The rules support this. It does not have to have it at the time for me to tell my opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zimko wrote: So each subsequent turn, when you 'declare' a FMC is Swooping you aren't making a choice, you are merely stating what mode it is in? Great so an FMC can never change modes?
By declaring in that case you are indicating what your retroactive choice was, which was made from the start of the turn. Otherwise there is a gap and the FMC assault rules break wide open
Zimko wrote: So each subsequent turn, when you 'declare' a FMC is Swooping you aren't making a choice, you are merely stating what mode it is in? Great so an FMC can never change modes?
The mode it was always in since time began apparently. Then you need to hop back in time and change all those rules, or maybe tell "Past you" about them, so you can play them all correctly. Changing mode creates a time paradox that whipes out all time.
col_impact wrote: The rules support this. It does not have to have it at the time for me to tell my opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
With the underlined, I think we have truely entered the realm of madness.
"Must have the Deep Strike rule" is pretty clear, Doesn't say "must have it at some point in the future."
Zimko wrote: So each subsequent turn, when you 'declare' a FMC is Swooping you aren't making a choice, you are merely stating what mode it is in? Great so an FMC can never change modes?
The mode it was always in since time began apparently. Then you need to hop back in time and change all those rules, or maybe tell "Past you" about them, so you can play them all correctly. Changing mode creates a time paradox that whipes out all time.
col_impact wrote: The rules support this. It does not have to have it at the time for me to tell my opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
With the underlined, I think we have truely entered the realm of madness.
"Must have the Deep Strike rule" is pretty clear, Doesn't say "must have it at some point in the future."
Per the rules, I simply tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
Lol, so as soon as a psychic power comes out that allows a unit to move like jump infantry, I can simply say "they will be arriving by Deep Strike" and suddenly my whole army can Deep Strike.
col_impact wrote: Per the rules, I simply tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
I suggest you read the rules for Deep Strike. There is a requirement that the unit actually has the deep strike rule.
Not later, it needs it when it goes into Reserve. And if it never arrives? You've broken the Deep Strike rule. Well done.
And per which rules? The rules for Deep Strike that the unit does not (and might not ever) have yet?
Zimko wrote: Lol, so as soon as a psychic power comes out that allows a unit to move like jump infantry, I can simply say "they will be arriving by Deep Strike" and suddenly my whole army can Deep Strike.
Bangels used to have exactly that power. I kid you not, some tried to make that claim.
Retroactively applying a rule because at some unknown point in the furtre the might get it. Madness.
col_impact wrote: Per the rules, I simply tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
I suggest you read the rules for Deep Strike. There is a requirement that the unit actually has the deep strike rule.
Not later, it needs it when it goes into Reserve. And if it never arrives? You've broken the Deep Strike rule. Well done.
I am reading the rules. You are making up some restriction where there is no restriction. I simply place the unit in Reserve and tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike and then it is placed in Deep Strike Reserve.
col_impact wrote: I am reading the rules. You are making up some restriction where there is no restriction. I simply place the unit in Reserve and tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike and then it is placed in Deep Strike Reserve.
And which rule are you using here? The only one that covers this is Deep Strike. Is that the rule you're using?
The rule the unit doesn't have?
The rule that states (direct quote): "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule".
If you're using another rule to place this unit into Deep Strike Reserve (and inform your opponent about it), then please quote it.
col_impact wrote: I am reading the rules. You are making up some restriction where there is no restriction. I simply place the unit in Reserve and tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike and then it is placed in Deep Strike Reserve.
And which rule are you using here? The only one that covers this is Deep Strike. Is that the rule you're using?
The rule the unit doesn't have?
The rule that states (direct quote): "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule".
If you're using another rule to place this unit into Deep Strike Reserve (and inform your opponent about it), then please quote it.
Yup, so if I place a some random unit in Deep Strike Reserves and it cannot Deep Strike then it will not be able to Deep Strike per that rule when it tries to arrive via Deep Strike Reserve. It will then have to arrive via Reserves.
If I tell my opponent my FMC will arrive via Deep Strike it is placed in Deep Strike Reserves and it will be able to Deep Strike.
col_impact wrote: Yup, so if I place a some random unit in Deep Strike Reserves and it cannot Deep Strike then it will not be able to Deep Strike per that rule when it tries to arrive via Deep Strike Reserve. It will then have to arrive via Reserves.
Really? So using a special rule the unit doesn't have is fine, then you can just make up a rule that allows then to use normal reserve instead of the one you didn't declare? You have rules quotes to back this up, naturally?
If I tell my opponent my FMC will arrive via Deep Strike it is placed in Deep Strike Reserves and it will be able to Deep Strike.
So using a Special Rule that the model doesn't have?
You might find this rule relevent:
BRB - What Special Rules Do I Have? wrote:It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Reminds me how you're using a Special Rule on a model that doesn't have this Special Rule, because you might (I say might, it's not garenteed) gain it later on in the game, then claim because you later get it, you didn't break any rule by using it when you didn't have it.
So my units are OK to use the Skyfire rule, despite not having it, because they might capture a Skyfire Nexus objective later in the game? Obviously I'm justifying using a rule they don't have, with the exact same rules you are. And I'm sure you're about to quote the rule that lets you use a USR you don't have, correct?
col_impact wrote: Yup, so if I place a some random unit in Deep Strike Reserves and it cannot Deep Strike then it will not be able to Deep Strike per that rule when it tries to arrive via Deep Strike Reserve. It will then have to arrive via Reserves.
Really? So using a special rule the unit doesn't have is fine, then you can just make up a rule that allows then to use normal reserve instead of the one you didn't declare? You have rules quotes to back this up, naturally?
If I tell my opponent my FMC will arrive via Deep Strike it is placed in Deep Strike Reserves and it will be able to Deep Strike.
So using a Special Rule that the model doesn't have?
You might find this rule relevent:
BRB - What Special Rules Do I Have? wrote:It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Reminds me how you're using a Special Rule on a model that doesn't have this Special Rule, because you might (I say might, it's not garenteed) gain it later on in the game, then claim because you later get it, you didn't break any rule by using it when you didn't have it.
So my units are OK to use the Skyfire rule, despite not having it, because they might capture a Skyfire Nexus objective later in the game? Obviously I'm justifying using a rule they don't have, with the exact same rules you are. And I'm sure you're about to quote the rule that lets you use a USR you don't have, correct?
I am not using a special rule to tell my opponent that the FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike.
They are a bit We've had time travel, paradoxes from decalaring one of two modes without choosing, using USR's that a unit doesn't have, and apparently inventing rules now. We're just missing a alien cow to complete the set.
col_impact wrote: I tell my opponent that it will be arriving via Deep Strike.
Ok, so no rule. And lying to your opponent, got it So they go into Reserve, you then say it's using a special rule it doesn't have, in order to use it while not using it.
What if your opponent ask: "Arriving via Deep Strike, the unit has Deep Strike then?"
Are you honest and say "No", or Lie and say "yes"?
I wish they would have made the distinction between FMC and MC more clear. They really should have left out the rule about being a MC with additional rules. They should have just used the extra page and repeated the shared rules.
col_impact wrote: I tell my opponent that it will be arriving via Deep Strike.
Ok, so no rule. And lying to your opponent, got it So they go into Reserve, you then say it's using a special rule it doesn't have, in order to use it while not using it.
What if your opponent ask: "Arriving via Deep Strike, the unit has Deep Strike then?"
Are you honest and say "No", or Lie and say "yes"?
What part of will be arriving via Deep Strike is a lie?
col_impact wrote: What part of will be arriving via Deep Strike is a lie?
The part where it is arriving via Deep Strike without using the Deep Strike rules.
That you claimed it would be arriving from Deep Strike, when the unit doesn't have the rule and has not fulfilled the requirement of the rule.
You can't arrive from Deep Strike without using the rule for Deep Strike. You're inventing a rule with this Declaration, it isn't a rule.
You're using a rule the model doesn't have.
You're taking a conversation you have with your opponent, and claiming that fulfills the requirements of a rule. Madness.
col_impact wrote: What part of will be arriving via Deep Strike is a lie?
The part where it is arriving via Deep Strike without using the Deep Strike rules.
That you claimed it would be arriving from Deep Strike, when the unit doesn't have the rule and has not fulfilled the requirement of the rule.
You can't arrive from Deep Strike without using the rule for Deep Strike. You're inventing a rule with this Declaration, it isn't a rule.
You're using a rule the model doesn't have.
You're taking a conversation you have with your opponent, and claiming that fulfills the requirements of a rule. Madness.
I tell my opponent it will arrive via Deep Strike and the FMC will have Swooping and Jump and Deep Strike per the FMC rules when it actually needs the USR.
col_impact wrote: I tell my opponent it will arrive via Deep Strike and the FMC will have Swooping and Jump and Deep Strike per the FMC rules when it actually needs the USR.
When it actually needs it is when it goes into reserve, as per the deep strike rules. Deep Strike is CRYSTAL CLEAR on this.
What you tell your opponent has no bearing on the rules. You could tell your opponent you like dancing in the rain for all the rules cares.
Telling your opponent this fulfils no rules.
You're inventing rules to allow a unit to Deep Strike, without having the rule, without meeting the rules requirements, and without following this rule.
Claiming its arriving from Deep Strike having not used the Deep Strike USR, is breaking rules.
On a side note: Somebody pointed out earlier in this thread that Daemon FMCs all have the Deep Strike rule. You'll also note that Daemon FMCs are the only FMCs with the Deep Strike rule (listed). Furthermore, you will also note that all Daemons (including those that are jump or jet pack) also have the Deep Strike rule listed.
Not claiming it is relevant, but there it is.
Furthermore, while I agree with col_impact on legality (due to the fact the rules describe FMCs as moving like Jump units), I do disagree with his arguments.
Deviantduck, Even without specific instruction that Flying Monstrous Creature are Monstrous Creatures, the Model in question still has access to a 6 inch Move as that is granted by a Basic Rule. As per Basic Vs Advanced, all Basic Rules apply to every Model and Unit Types are not a disqualifying factor, as that Rule lacks mention of them let alone informing us to discount x or y Unit Types from any Basic Rule. It doesn't come up much in relation to Flyers or Flying Monstrous Creatures, they have more Advanced Rules telling us that they must move in a way which is not default, but that default method does not suddenly go away simply because the Unit is more then infantry.
So back to the original question: If the Rule forcing non-default movement has a specific Timing involved, what forces/allows the Model to use the non-default movement prior to that point in time?
col_impact wrote: I tell my opponent it will arrive via Deep Strike and the FMC will have Swooping and Jump and Deep Strike per the FMC rules when it actually needs the USR.
When it actually needs it is when it goes into reserve, as per the deep strike rules. Deep Strike is CRYSTAL CLEAR on this.
What you tell your opponent has no bearing on the rules. You could tell your opponent you like dancing in the rain for all the rules cares.
Telling your opponent this fulfils no rules.
You're inventing rules to allow a unit to Deep Strike, without having the rule, without meeting the rules requirements, and without following this rule.
Claiming its arriving from Deep Strike having not used the Deep Strike USR, is breaking rules.
Deep strike units don't automatically go into Deep Strike Reserves. They can be placed in just the Reserves and walk on the board. They must be designated as arriving via Deep Strike. That designation is called Deep Strike Reserves.
I place the FMC in Reserves and tell my opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike. That designation is called Deep Strike Reserves.
Are you referring to Flight Modes?
Please quote a rule allowing you to select either while in reserve. Page and paragraph please.
Show how it is relevant. FMCS can move by one of two flight modes...... Both are Jump.
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units,
Show how either mode is not described as moving like Jump.....
You cant do it.
You're using a rule the unit can't use. Similar to col_impact using a USR a model doesn't have.
You can't select Gliding, you can't select Swooping. Without referencing rules you can't use, how is it described as moving?
You're taking "described" as "later potentially described".
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col_impact wrote: Deep strike units don't automatically go into Deep Strike Reserves. They can be placed in just the Reserves and walk on the board. They must be designated as arriving via Deep Strike. That designation is called Deep Strike Reserves.
Correct, as per the Deep Strike Rules.
I place the FMC in Reserves and tell my opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike. That designation is called Deep Strike Reserves.
Tell your opponent it's a fish, for all the good it'll do. Doesn't make it so.
As per the deep strike rules you need the Deep Strike USR to be considered in Deep Strike Reserve.
Are you referring to Flight Modes?
Please quote a rule allowing you to select either while in reserve. Page and paragraph please.
Show how it is relevant. FMCS can move by one of two flight modes...... Both are Jump.
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units,
Show how either mode is not described as moving like Jump.....
You cant do it.
You're using a rule the unit can't use. Similar to col_impact using a USR a model doesn't have.
You can't select Gliding, you can't select Swooping. Without referencing rules you can't use, how is it described as moving?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: Deep strike units don't automatically go into Deep Strike Reserves. They can be placed in just the Reserves and walk on the board. They must be designated as arriving via Deep Strike. That designation is called Deep Strike Reserves.
Correct, as per the Deep Strike Rules.
I place the FMC in Reserves and tell my opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike. That designation is called Deep Strike Reserves.
Tell your opponent it's a fish, for all the good it'll do. Doesn't make it so.
As per the deep strike rules you need the Deep Strike USR to be considered in Deep Strike Reserve.
The rules don't say that. You need the Deep Strike USR to be able to Deep Strike (that's in the rules) but there is no restriction saying you can only designate units with Deep Strike for Deep Strike Reserve. Simply by telling the opponent that a unit will be deep striking designates it Deep Strike Reserve.
col_impact wrote: The rules don't say that. You need the Deep Strike USR to be able to Deep Strike (that's in the rules) but there is no restriction saying you can only designate units with Deep Strike for Deep Strike Reserve. Simply by telling the opponent that a unit will be deep striking designates it Deep Strike Reserve.
The Rules disagree.
Telling your opponent something doesn't make it so.
As per the Deep Strike rule (which believe it or not, is required for Deep Striking), the unit wanting to arrive via Deep Strike must have the Deep Strike rule and be in Reserve. That is Deep Strike Reserve. Anything else isn't Deep Strike reserve. It's made up.
col_impact wrote: The rules don't say that. You need the Deep Strike USR to be able to Deep Strike (that's in the rules) but there is no restriction saying you can only designate units with Deep Strike for Deep Strike Reserve. Simply by telling the opponent that a unit will be deep striking designates it Deep Strike Reserve.
The Rules disagree.
Telling your opponent something doesn't make it so.
As per the Deep Strike rule (which believe it or not, is required for Deep Striking), the unit wanting to arrive via Deep Strike must have the Deep Strike rule and be in Reserve. That is Deep Strike Reserve. Anything else isn't Deep Strike reserve. It's made up.
Wrong. If you don't tell your opponent that that unit will be arriving via Deep Strike then it can only walk on via Reserve.
col_impact wrote: If you don't tell your opponent that that unit will be arriving via Deep Strike then it can only walk on via Reserve.
And if you tell your opponent it will be arriving via Deep Strike, but it doesn't have the Deep Strike USR, then you have NOT met the requirements of Deep Strike Reserve. It is NOT in Deep Strike Reserve, and CANNOT arrive via Deep Strike.
col_impact wrote: If you don't tell your opponent that that unit will be arriving via Deep Strike then it can only walk on via Reserve.
And if you tell your opponent it will be arriving via Deep Strike, but it doesn't have the Deep Strike USR, then you have NOT met the requirements of Deep Strike Reserve. It is NOT in Deep Strike Reserve, and CANNOT arrive via Deep Strike.
If you think it does, you're inventing rules.
There are no requirements for Deep Strike Reserve.
When in Reserve? Can any unit move when in Reserve?
When on the table they always have a Flight Mode selected.
FMC's still follow the rules for MC's. How do they move? Nothing in the FMC rules replaces anything, it only adds to it.
col_impact wrote: If you don't tell your opponent that that unit will be arriving via Deep Strike then it can only walk on via Reserve.
And if you tell your opponent it will be arriving via Deep Strike, but it doesn't have the Deep Strike USR, then you have NOT met the requirements of Deep Strike Reserve. It is NOT in Deep Strike Reserve, and CANNOT arrive via Deep Strike.
If you think it does, you're inventing rules.
There are no requirements for Deep Strike Reserve.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
So lets see to be placed in Deep Strike Reserve you must tell your opponent that the unit will be Deep Striking, which it cannot if 1+ member does not have the Deep Strike special rule.
Fragile, Ah straw-men, as we all know Grendel083 is stating that the Flying Monstrous Creature can not choose a movement type prior to the moment we have permission to make that declaration.
However, though I can not fathom why something in Reserves would need to Move: What prevents the Basic Rule granting a default Movement of 6 inches from being applied?
JinxDragon wrote: Deviantduck,
Even without specific instruction that Flying Monstrous Creature are Monstrous Creatures, the Model in question still has access to a 6 inch Move as that is granted by a Basic Rule. As per Basic Vs Advanced, all Basic Rules apply to every Model and Unit Types are not a disqualifying factor, as that Rule lacks mention of them let alone informing us to discount x or y Unit Types from any Basic Rule. It doesn't come up much in relation to Flyers or Flying Monstrous Creatures, they have more Advanced Rules telling us that they must move in a way which is not default, but that default method does not suddenly go away simply because the Unit is more then infantry.
So back to the original question:
If the Rule forcing non-default movement has a specific Timing involved, what forces/allows the Model to use the non-default movement prior to that point in time?
Right. But it also affects other rules like Strafing Run(+1 BS when shooting at a MC). Are FMCs only FMCs? are they FMCs and MCs? It's like they made them a separate unit type, and then went ahead an blurred the lines back to the unit type they tried to separate them from.
col_impact wrote: If you don't tell your opponent that that unit will be arriving via Deep Strike then it can only walk on via Reserve.
And if you tell your opponent it will be arriving via Deep Strike, but it doesn't have the Deep Strike USR, then you have NOT met the requirements of Deep Strike Reserve. It is NOT in Deep Strike Reserve, and CANNOT arrive via Deep Strike.
If you think it does, you're inventing rules.
There are no requirements for Deep Strike Reserve.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
So lets see to be placed in Deep Strike Reserve you must tell your opponent that the unit will be Deep Striking, which it cannot if 1+ member does not have the Deep Strike special rule.
Telling the opponent that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike is what is called Deep Strike Reserve.
Zimko wrote: Taken out of context, that rule means that when putting any unit in reserves, " you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike".
Don't take rules out of context.
I am not taking anything out of context, that is what the BRB defines Deep Strike Reserve as. If you don't tell your opponent that your unit will be arriving by Deep Strike then you have not designated a Deep Strike Reserve.
Zimko wrote: Taken out of context, that rule means that when putting any unit in reserves, " you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike".
Don't take rules out of context.
I am not taking anything out of context, that is what the BRB defines Deep Strike Reserve as. If you don't tell your opponent that your unit will be arriving by Deep Strike then you have not designated a Deep Strike Reserve.
Zimko wrote: Taken out of context, that rule means that when putting any unit in reserves, " you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike".
Don't take rules out of context.
I am not taking anything out of context, that is what the BRB defines Deep Strike Reserve as. If you don't tell your opponent that your unit will be arriving by Deep Strike then you have not designated a Deep Strike Reserve.
Since you missed my question, I'll ask again.
Was that a quote from the Deep Strike rule?
Sorry. Missed your question. Yes, the definition for how Deep Strike Reserve is designated is found in the Deep Strike rule.
JinxDragon wrote: Can one use even a segment of a Special Rule on a Model which does not have access to that Rule?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep
Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in
Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes
called Deep Strike Reserve).
The Deep Strike rule is a listing of requirements for a successful Deep Strike. One of those requirements is having the Deep Strike special rule when you Deep Strike.
I place the FMC in reserve and I tell my opponent that it will be arriving via Deep Strike (which designates it as Deep Strike Reserve)
When I go to actually Deep Strike I have all the components I need to Deep Strike. Deep Strike rule is on the profile. I started the game in reserves. I told my opponent the FMC will be arriving by Deep Strike.
You did not answer the question: By default, are you allowed to apply half of a Rule? Does that permission, if it exists, extend to using a Rule Segment on a Model that does not have access to the whole of the Rule?
I have many problems with Deep Strike itself, mostly because the Timing involved with the Rule is clear as mud, but the above questions address more then just Deep Strike. In order to evoke a segment of a Rule, regardless of what that segment states, one has to show that they have legal permission to do so. Without access to the Rule in question it is not possible to apply the Rule in question, even partially, so I need to see something which shows you have permission to do this.
JinxDragon wrote: Can one use even a segment of a Special Rule on a Model which does not have access to that Rule?
No, you most certainly can not.
You can't use a rule you don't have.
And a Segment? Ignore the requirements, just using the bits you want? No.
col_impact wrote: Sorry. Missed your question. Yes, the definition for how Deep Strike Reserve is designated is found in the Deep Strike rule.
So you're invoking a Special Rule that the unit doesn't have, bypassing the rules requirements and placing the unit into Deep Strike Reserve?
The rule you quoted, if you're using that you're using the Deep Strike rules.
Using a rule a model doesn't have, is breaking the rules.
They don't have deep strike. You can't use that quote.
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col_impact wrote: When I go to actually Deep Strike I have all the components I need to Deep Strike.
When you went into Deep Strike Reserve you did not. Making the use of Deep Strike reserve illegal.
Retroactively meeting the requirements is not supported by the rules.
Telling my opponent that I am arriving by Deep Strike is fulfilling a requirement.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JinxDragon wrote: You did not answer the question:
By default, are you allowed to apply half of a Rule?
Does that permission, if it exists, extend to using a Rule Segment on a Model that does not have access to the whole of the Rule?
Telling my opponent that I am arriving by Deep Strike is fulfilling a requirement.
Read the rule guys. Its a requirement. Not something granted by the rules.
JinxDragon wrote: Answer the question itself, ignore deep strike completely if it makes it easier for you:
By default, are you allowed to apply half of a Rule to any given situation?
Does that permission extend to Rules the Model does not have access to?
Paying expected requirements of a rule is not applying half of a rule.
Deep Strike fails to happen if any of the requirements is missing.
I could attempt to Deep Strike a regular jump unit and that fails because I did not tell my opponent that that unit was arriving via deep strike when I put it in reserves even though Deep Strike is obviously on the profile.
Col_Impact, How... just how? Applying a section from the entity of the Rule itself, ignoring the requirements that come prior and the instructions which come after, is literally "half applying" a Rule!
I understand why you are concerned about some of the things within the Deep Strike Special Rule, I personally have put it into the 'broken' pile myself due to some of my own questions, but what you are pushing forth here is so far from comprehensible I can no longer follow your line of reasoning. You are obeying only a single line of instructions, while ignoring anything else found within the Rule in question, with a Model that does not yet have access to the Rule. I can not fathom how this is anything but illegal!
Until you can quote me a Rule in the book which state what you are doing is permitted, informing us when we and how we actually go about doing so, I'm going to simply point out that you lack permission to do what you are attempting to do.
JinxDragon wrote: Col_Impact,
How... just how?
Applying a section from the entity of the Rule itself, ignoring the requirements that come prior and the instructions which come after, is literally "half applying" a Rule!
I understand why you are concerned about some of the things within the Deep Strike Special Rule, I personally have put it into the 'broken' pile myself due to some of my own questions, but what you are pushing forth here is so far from comprehensible I can no longer follow your line of reasoning. You are obeying only a single line of instructions, while ignoring anything else found within the Rule in question, with a Model that does not yet have access to the Rule. I can not fathom how this is anything but illegal!
Until you can quote me a Rule in the book which state what you are doing is permitted, informing us when we and how we actually go about doing so, I'm going to simply point out that you lack permission to do what you are attempting to do.
Deep Strike doesn't happen until you actually deep strike.
Having the Deep Strike USR is a requirement.
Putting the unit in reserves is a requirement.
Telling the opponent that you are arriving by Deep Strike is a requirement.
Getting a successful reserve roll is generally also a requirement.
When you have met all the requirements for Deep Strike then you may attempt to actually Deep Strike and that is the point in time when all requirements must be fulfilled.
JinxDragon wrote: Fragile,
Ah straw-men, as we all know Grendel083 is stating that the Flying Monstrous Creature can not choose a movement type prior to the moment we have permission to make that declaration.
Show me where this is necessary.
However, though I can not fathom why something in Reserves would need to Move:
What prevents the Basic Rule granting a default Movement of 6 inches from being applied?
Jinx, at least have the courtesy to go back and find the quote that answers this. It has been shown to Grendel numerous times.
col_impact: Yes those are all requirements. Of a Rule the unit/model doesn't have! You can't even call that rule, let alone meets it's requirements (retroactively it should be noted) if the unit doesn't have it.
Fragile wrote: Jinx, at least have the courtesy to go back and find the quote that answers this. It has been shown to Grendel numerous times.
Ah yes, you claimed the FMC's movement rules COMPLETELY replaced any and all rules related to Movement for a MC, but declined to quote a rule proving it.
If it uses the default movement of an MC or not is really irrelevent as a model is never required to move while in reserve, but it's still there.
The important part being is that it isn't Swooping or Gliding. No rule allows it to be.
Once again, no rule allows you to pick a Flight Mode in Reserve. No Rule requires a Flight Mode to be selected at all times. If you disagree with either of these points please post a rule quote proving otherwise.
Now I ask again, without referencing either flight mode (since they cannot be selected), when in reserve how does it move?
I disagree with your assumption on the Timing, Col_impact;
One of the issues I have with the Deep Strike Special Rule is the fact it contains multiple Timings: Start of Turn, Placed into Reserves, Arriving itself.... It is a Rule that is all over the place, so it is not possible to really know if any particular moment is the 'official moment this Rule is evoked.' That does not mean we have permission to simply choose one of these Timings and announce that is when we are evoking the Rule, for many reasons but the most binding being that the Rulebook simply does not grant us permission to make those sort of choices.
It is far more likely that the Deep Strike Special Rule 'officially triggers' during Deployment itself, for this is when we first encounter instructions within the Rule telling us to do something....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Frigile, Having access to an additional method of movement does not remove the original method. It is the requirement to select either Gliding or Swooping that makes it impossible to select 'walking,' and that declaration occurs after Reserves.
JinxDragon wrote: I disagree with your assumption on the Timing, Col_impact;
One of the issues I have with the Deep Strike Special Rule is the fact it contains multiple Timings: Start of Turn, Placed into Reserves, Arriving itself.... It is a Rule that is all over the place, so it is not possible to really know if any particular moment is the 'official moment this Rule is evoked.' That does not mean we have permission to simply choose one of these Timings and announce that is when we are evoking the Rule, for many reasons but the most binding being that the Rulebook simply does not grant us permission to make those sort of choices.
It is far more likely that the Deep Strike Special Rule 'officially triggers' during Deployment itself, for this is when we first encounter instructions within the Rule telling us to do something....
You can satisfy requirements without following a rule. It is clear when a unit is actually deep striking, unless you want to be obtuse about it. The requirements span several time periods, ut the actual deep strike happens at a particular time.
col_impact wrote: You can satisfy requirements without following a rule. It is clear when a unit is actually deep striking, unless you want to be obtuse about it.
Yes you can meet the requirements, but if you're not following the rule that doesn't mean anything. And you're still trying to meet the requirements of a rule a unit doesn't actually have.
And you can't fulfill the requirements at the time they are needed. The rules do not support you retroactively meeting requirements
col_impact wrote: You can satisfy requirements without following a rule. It is clear when a unit is actually deep striking, unless you want to be obtuse about it.
Yes you can meet the requirements, but if you're not following the rule that doesn't mean anything. And you're still trying to meet the requirements of a rule a unit doesn't actually have.
And you can't fulfill the requirements at the time they are needed. The rules do not support you retroactively meeting requirements
"I'll do it later" doesn't cut it.
Nothing prevents me from putting the FMC in reserves and nothing prevents me from telling the opponent the FMC will be arriving by Deep Strike. The Deep Strike rule does not have to be in effect for me to do those two things. When I indeed Deep Strike it is only important at that I have met those requirements.
col_impact wrote: Nothing prevents me from putting the FMC in reserves
True,
and nothing prevents me from telling the opponent the FMC will be arriving by Deep Strike.
Technically you can your opponent whatever you like. What you're telling your oppoenent is incorrect in terms of rules, but yes you can tell them that. Tell them they're a fish if you really want, rules won't make that true either.
Bare in mind; Telling them it will arrive from Deep Strike, and the rules actually allowing it to arrive from Deep Strike are two different things. You can do the former, but can't legally do the later,
The Deep Strike rule does not have to be in effect for me to do those two things.
No, but if you want the unit to actually arrive from Deep Strike (and not just tell your opponent about your non-rules supported wish) then they really do need to be in effect.
"This unit will arrive via deep strike"
"Does it have the Deep Strike rule?"
"No....."
Col_impact,
Why would we bother trying to satisfy a requirement if we are not evoking/following/obeying, or doing anything else that would represent the use of a Rule?
"This unit will arrive via deep strike"
"Does it have the Deep Strike rule?"
"No....."
So this conversation is happening at turn two?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JinxDragon wrote: Col_impact,
Why would we bother trying to satisfy a requirement if we are not evoking/following/obeying, or doing anything else that would represent the use of a Rule?
You should answer whether a requirement for a rule can be satisfied (happenstance or whatever) without following the rule.
grendel083 wrote: "This unit will arrive via deep strike"
"Does it have the Deep Strike rule?"
"No....."
So this conversation is happening at turn two?
No, that would happen during deployment when it goes into reserve.
Turn 2's conversation would be:
"This unit is arriving via Deep Strike"
"As pointed out during deployment, it was never in Deep Strike Reserve, so no it isn't. Pack your models up col, I'm tired of your made up rules"
If a unit of Imperial Guard charge into combat, they have met the requirements of Furious Charge.
But they don't have that rule, so it doesn't matter.
Nothing prevents me from putting the FMC in reserves and nothing prevents me from telling the opponent the FMC will be arriving by Deep Strike. The Deep Strike rule does not have to be in effect for me to do those two things. When I indeed Deep Strike it is only important at that I have met those requirements.
Saddly until the model moves, it doesnt have deepstrike
to look to the rules
"If the model is Gliding"-it moves like jump
"if the model is swooping"-it moves like jump
If it moves like jump it has Deepstrike
I look at my model before it has entered the game,
I ask is it gliding... no... i ask is it swooping... no... dam it doesnt have jump, so it doesnt have deepstrike
grendel083 wrote: "This unit will arrive via deep strike"
"Does it have the Deep Strike rule?"
"No....."
So this conversation is happening at turn two?
No, that would happen during deployment when it goes into reserve.
Turn 2's conversation would be:
"This unit is arriving via Deep Strike"
"As pointed out during deployment, it was never in Deep Strike Reserve, so no it isn't. Pack your models up col, I'm tired of your made up rules"
If a unit of Imperial Guard cgarge into combat, they have met the requirements of Furious Charge.
But they don't have that rule, so it doesn't matter.
The FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike is a true statement.
If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, yes. Your counter example doesn't actually provide any counter.
col_impact wrote: The FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike is a true statement.
No it isn't, you've failed to meet the requirements of Deep Strike, The unit have not been placed in Deep Strike reserve, and most importantly: The unit doesn't have Deep Strike.
Meeting the requirements of a rule the unit doesn't have means absolutley nothing.
If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, yes. Your counter example doesn't actually provide any counter.
It's using the same logic as you. Trying to use a Special rule the unit doesn't have. Meeting the Requirements of a Special Rule they don't have, then claiming they can use it when at the time they need it, they don't have it.
col_impact wrote: The FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike is a true statement.
No it isn't, you've failed to meet the requirements of Deep Strike, The unit have not been placed in Deep Strike reserve, and most importantly: The unit doesn't have Deep Strike.
Meeting the requirements of a rule the unit doesn't have means absolutley nothing.
If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, yes. Your counter example doesn't actually provide any counter.
It's using the same logic as you. Trying to use a Special rule the unit doesn't have. Meeting the Requirements of a Special Rule they don't have, then claiming they can use it when at the time they need it, they don't have it.
It's not the same logic as all. I am saying you can satisfy requirements for a rule that will be on the profile in the future and invoked in the future.
"If the model is Gliding"-it moves like jump
"if the model is swooping"-it moves like jump
If it moves like jump it has Deepstrike
Swooping or gliding is determined once a model moves
A model that has been in reserves and has never moved is neither swooping nor gliding, and therefore doesnt have the deepstrike rule
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: "If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, yes. Your counter example doesn't actually provide any counter."
This above statement isnt the same thing as the FMC arguement it would be more like
"If the imperail guard runs 6 inches it has furious charge. If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, "
col_impact wrote: It's not the same logic as all. I am saying you can satisfy requirements for a rule that will be on the profile in the future and invoked in the future.
No, you can't meet them.
To use the Deep Strike rule, the unit needs the Deep Strike rule. We stop here, you havn't met this basic requirement.
Let's look at the requirements to fulfill this rule. No, you don't have it, there's no looking at it, none of it applies.
But lets look anyway: First requirement - "All models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule" - fail, unit doesn't have it.
Going into Deep Strike Reserve? No, that requires the use of the Deep Strike USR (which the unit doesn't have), and it has also failed the requirement to use it. A double fail.
Does telling your opponent it will arrive from Deep Strike mean it is in Deep Strike Reserve? No, that means invoking the Deep Strike rule. Again the unit doesn't have it, and fails the requirement to use it.
Gaining Deep Strike later, does not allow you to retroactively claim to have met requirements that you failed to meet when they were needed - during deployment.
SaJeel wrote: "If the model is Gliding"-it moves like jump
"if the model is swooping"-it moves like jump
If it moves like jump it has Deepstrike
Swooping or gliding is determined once a model moves
A model that has been in reserves and has never moved is neither swooping nor gliding, and therefore doesnt have the deepstrike rule
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: "If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, yes. Your counter example doesn't actually provide any counter."
This above statement isnt the same thing as the FMC arguement it would be more like
"If the imperail guard runs 6 inches it has furious charge. If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, "
During deployment,
I put the FMC in reserves, any issue with that?
I tell the opponent the FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike, any issue with that?
col_impact wrote: During deployment,
I put the FMC in reserves, any issue with that?
No
I tell the opponent the FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike, any issue with that?
Yes, it's lying to your opponent.
It won't be arriving via Deep Strike, because the unit doesn't have it, and fails to meet the requiments of it. What you're telling your opponent isn't true.
Col_Impact, While it is possible to know a requirement ahead of time, we are rational beings able to plot the future after all, we unable to satisfy the requirement till it actually exists. Simple knowledge of a yet-to-exist requirement does not outright grant us permission to complete any action required to meet that not-yet-existent Requirement....
Even one as simple as 'announce to your opponent.'
JinxDragon wrote: Col_Impact,
While it is possible to know a requirement ahead of time, we are rational beings able to plot the future after all, we unable to satisfy the requirement till it actually exists.
Simple knowledge of a yet-to-exist requirement does not outright grant us permission to complete any action required to meet that not-yet-existent Requirement....
Even one as simple as 'announce to your opponent.'
A deep strike happens at a moment in the game. All the requirements simply need to be there at that moment.
col_impact wrote: A deep strike happens at a moment in the game. All the requirements simply need to be there at that moment.
And that moment never comes. As first it must be arriving from Deep Strike, before this partiular model gains Deep Strike. It gains it too late, even by your theory.
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."
Quick breakdown:
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve" - This must be true. "it always counts as being in Swooping mode." - Before this can apply.
Note: "always", not "has always"
Your theory requires the second to be applied, in order to make the first true. But it will never be applied, because the first isn't true.
col_impact wrote: A deep strike happens at a moment in the game. All the requirements simply need to be there at that moment.
And that moment never comes. As first it must be arriving from Deep Strike, before this partiular model gains Deep Strike. It gains it too late, even by your theory.
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."
Quick breakdown:
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve" - This must be true. "it always counts as being in Swooping mode." - Before this can apply.
Note: "always", not "has always"
Your theory requires the second to be applied, in order to make the first true. But it will never be applied, because the first isn't true.
What is the exact BRB definition of Deep Strike Reserve? What exactly is it? Be exact.
col_impact wrote: What is the exact BRB definition of Deep Strike Reserve? What exactly is it? Be exact.
Part of the Deep Strike rule, requires 3 parts:
1). Every model in the unit must have the Deep Strike rule
2). the unit (referenced previously in step 1) must be placed in Reserve,
3). You must Inform your opponent that the unit (referenced in step 1) in Reserve will be arring via Deep Strike.
Once all three are complete, the unit is considered to be in Deep Strike Reserve.
Since you requested I be exact I must include the following:
Step one is included as it is a requirement to be able to Deep Strike, no part of the rule can be completed with out this step.
Step 1 and Step 2 are required before step 3 can be complete.
The three parts of Deep Strike Reserve are part of the Deep Strike rule. If the unit does not have the Deep Strike special rule listed, it doesn't have it (see "What Special Rules Do I Have?" In the BRB), if it doesn't have it, it can't use it.
In a nutshell: if the unit has the Deep Strike USR and is in reserve, you can announce it is Deep Striking.
JinxDragon wrote: I disagree with your assumption on the Timing, Col_impact;
One of the issues I have with the Deep Strike Special Rule is the fact it contains multiple Timings: Start of Turn, Placed into Reserves, Arriving itself.... It is a Rule that is all over the place, so it is not possible to really know if any particular moment is the 'official moment this Rule is evoked.' That does not mean we have permission to simply choose one of these Timings and announce that is when we are evoking the Rule, for many reasons but the most binding being that the Rulebook simply does not grant us permission to make those sort of choices.
It is far more likely that the Deep Strike Special Rule 'officially triggers' during Deployment itself, for this is when we first encounter instructions within the Rule telling us to do something....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Frigile,
Having access to an additional method of movement does not remove the original method.
It is the requirement to select either Gliding or Swooping that makes it impossible to select 'walking,' and that declaration occurs after Reserves.
It is not access to another method. FMCs move 1 of 2 ways. Clearly stated in their rule. Both methods are described as moving like Jump, which is all the Jump rules require for DS.
In order to b placed in DSR you must have the DSUSR.
The FMC does not get to choose if it is swooping or Gliding until it is on the table.
It is at this point that it is counted as JMC.
Prior to being on the table it is not considered a JMC and therefore does not have the DSUSR and therefore cannot choose to use the DSR.
Not sure how many times it has been explained in various different ways ... but this is the easiest way it can be explained,
I agree with grendel083 based on the arguments presented.
If FMC's get Deep Strike as a standard rule, why is it that a 'Lord of Change' Codex Entry (Codex: Daemons, pg 92) specifically states that it has the Deep Strike special rule but a 'Hive Crone' Codex Entry (Codex: Tyranids pg 101) does not, even though both Codex entries are classified as unit type "FMC' as default?
Can those that support the notion that all FMC's have Deep Strike answer this?
Frozocrone wrote: I agree with grendel083 based on the arguments presented.
If FMC's get Deep Strike as a standard rule, why is it that a 'Lord of Change' Codex Entry (Codex: Daemons, pg 92) specifically states that it has the Deep Strike special rule but a 'Hive Crone' Codex Entry (Codex: Tyranids pg 101) does not, even though both Codex entries are classified as unit type "FMC' as default?
Can those that support the notion that all FMC's have Deep Strike answer this?
OIIIIIIO wrote: In order to b placed in DSR you must have the DSUSR.
The FMC does not get to choose if it is swooping or Gliding until it is on the table.
It is at this point that it is counted as JMC.
Prior to being on the table it is not considered a JMC and therefore does not have the DSUSR and therefore cannot choose to use the DSR.
Not sure how many times it has been explained in various different ways ... but this is the easiest way it can be explained,
It does not need to be either swooping or gliding. It is described as moving like a Jump unit in both forms of movement it can take. Therefore it gains the rules for Jump unit which include DS.
The rules give permission for FMC to be swooping
The rules give permission for FMC to be Gliding.
The rules *never* give permission to be anything else. At *all times* a FMC has to be either Swooping or Gliding.
Grendel and SaJeel have created this 'third mode' (Neutral...??) that has *no* rules support. Please cite a rule that allows for a third option besides the two listed?
If you cannot, then it does not exist...... If you do not have permission for a third mode, that mode does not exist...
FMC Can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding
Key word here is: MOVE
PG. 68 Also gives the special rules that FMC have ... Jink and Vector Strike SR. No Mention of Deep Strike on this page.
A FMC is not able to choose a flight mode until it is on the table, therefore it is not eligible to be considered a JMC until it declares how it is flying. That does not happen until the movement phase ... well after Deployment phase is over.
Please give a rule that says that a fmc is gliding or swooping before it moves.
The "third option" is it is neither gliding nor swooping. Read the section of Deployment for FMCs
Col_impact i reached that same conclusion, the problem with that, is gliding and swooping both are phrased in a manner that negates them before they are deployed. At the start of the game when a FMC is in reserves you cant reach the pharse " it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature," without first breaking an if statement. Now a case could be made, that because it is in the rules for gliding and swooping, and gliding and swooping are under the FMC description an FMC is "described as moving like a jump unit" as that statement is 100% correct. the Problem arisies when you insert qualifiers, however the rule for being described as moving like a jump unit has no qualifiers, so tbh its a bit of a tough call
SaJeel wrote: Col_impact i reached that same conclusion, the problem with that, is gliding and swooping both are phrased in a manner that negates them before they are deployed. At the start of the game when a FMC is in reserves you cant reach the pharse " it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature," without first breaking an if statement. Now a case could be made, that because it is in the rules for gliding and swooping, and gliding and swooping are under the FMC description an FMC is "described as moving like a jump unit" as that statement is 100% correct. the Problem arisies when you insert qualifiers, however the rule for being described as moving like a jump unit has no qualifiers, so tbh its a bit of a tough call
The rule does not care about conditionals. The rule cares about descriptions. The rule only cares if Swooping or Gliding are on the FMC description. They are. So it grants the Special Rule.
It really all depends on how you group your priority, and if the pharse "described as moving like a jump unit" is time sensitive or not, tbh because of the finicky nature of English both grendels and col_impacts interpretations are unfortunately logical and free of fallacy.
SaJeel wrote: It really all depends on how you group your priority, and if the pharse "described as moving like a jump unit" is time sensitive or not, tbh because of the finicky nature of English both interpretations are unfortunately logical and free of fallacy.
The rule would have to say "at all times" or "at the current time" to actually become time sensitive. As stated, it is not time sensitive.
Basically the question is asked: Are FMC described as 'moving like' Jump units? Yes or no.
Look at the FMC description and answer that question.
"Is a FMC described as moving like JMC"
I say clearly yes
but when I ask myself
"At the time of Deepstriking is a FMC ever described as moving like a JMC"
I firmly say no
So the question is with regards to gaining Deepstrike, which of the two stances does it reference
" Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The phrasing of the above rule... makes me lean towards a timeless nonspecific interpretation, but it truly is an interpretation. Anyone who has actually read through all this( and by this i mean all of this thread) should be able to understand how col_impact and Grendel both make sense and how neither of them is wrong in their interpretations however, my gut feeling sides more with col_impact tho i can't say Grendel is by any means wrong, if anything i have more weight in his interpretation RAW
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you read the rule
"Units that are ever described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Col_impact is correct
Grendel is incorrect
If it is read
"When Units are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units they follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Grendel is correct
Col_impact is incorrect
"Is a FMC described as moving like JMC"
I say clearly yes
This is all that is required for the rule to take effect. The rule only cares about whether it is described and not about time or context. The Deep Strike USR is granted
Keep in mind the question is always just this: Are FMC described as 'moving like' Jump units? Yes or no.
"Is a FMC described as moving like JMC"
I say clearly yes
This is all that is required for the rule to take effect. The rule only cares about whether it is described and not about time or context. The Deep Strike USR is granted
Keep in mind the question is always just this: Are FMC described as 'moving like' Jump units? Yes or no.
"Is a FMC described as moving like JMC"
I say clearly yes
This is all that is required for the rule to take effect. The rule only cares about whether it is described and not about time or context. The Deep Strike USR is granted
Keep in mind the question is always just this: Are FMC described as 'moving like' Jump units? Yes or no.
The answer to your question is: Sometimes.
You missed out on the yes or no part. Sometimes is converted to yes in the rule. The answer would have to be always no for it be no. The question does not care about conditionals. If the answer is yes if its on a Tuesday then the answer is yes.
SaJeel wrote: Please give a rule that says that a fmc is gliding or swooping before it moves.
The "third option" is it is neither gliding nor swooping. Read the section of Deployment for FMCs
It would never be written that way unfortunately because those rules deal with movement, problem is your never going to write a rule about movement at a time its not yet reached.... movement. 6th they didn't even have the foresight to note flying mode for FMC after deep striking in the BRB.
In any case, I agree with Col / Fragile on it, though this thread has come up before I doubt any new information will be pulled forward to persuade either side.
col_impact wrote: Sometimes is converted to yes in the rule. The answer would have to be always no for it be no.
I have missed your crazy made up ideas col, you've brightened my morning!
When going into reserve, the time it needs Deep Strike, is it described as moving like a jump unit? That's a firm no, as its neither Swooping nor Gliding.
Can it later in the game be described as moving as a Jump Unit? Yes, maybe.
Is it guaranteed? No, the game can end before it deploys, meaning it will never have been described as moving like a jump unit.
Do the rules care what might happen in the future? Of course not!
This idea that you can take a "no" and count it as a "yes" because there's a chance that at some point in the future it *might* be a yes, has zero rules support.
"Sometime in the future, maybe" simply doesn't cut it.
"Is your weapon in range?"
"No, but it might be in two turns time, so I'll shoot anyway!"
Grendel083, If it wasn't for the fact the Y'Vahra is a Jet-pack Monstrous Creature, and therefore has the Deep Strike Special Rule through the Jet-Pack Unit Type, I would have asked them how they would handle that thing. It has access to the one of the movement type granted to a Flying Monsters Creature but only during a specific Phase, after a Random Chance element and only if the player decides to use it instead of the three other choices. However, by their logic, that would be enough in order to Deep Strike it even if it wasn't for the Unit Type it begun with because it has access to a Rule which describes it as moving like a Jump Pack Unit....
However, instead of focusing on the core of the problem that Unit would create with their interpretation we already know the opposition would simply take the easy way out by repeating 'it is a Jet-Pack Unit' over and over again....
JinxDragon,
There used to be a Psychic Power available to Bangels, it's still in their current Codex but it's use has been FAQ'd to use rulebook powers instead. There's nothing to stop a similar power being introduced in the future. It allowed the model, for a turn, to move like a Jump Unit.
So, hypothetically, if such a power was available would anyone claim it allows the model to Deep Strike? The model now has the potential to at some point in the future, maybe, move like a Jump Unit.
col_impact, would you allow Deep Striking if a model had this power?
grendel083 wrote: JinxDragon,
There used to be a Psychic Power available to Bangels, it's still in their current Codex but it's use has been FAQ'd to use rulebook powers instead. There's nothing to stop a similar power being introduced in the future. It allowed the model, for a turn, to move like a Jump Unit.
So, hypothetically, if such a power was available would anyone claim it allows the model to Deep Strike? The model now has the potential to at some point in the future, maybe, move like a Jump Unit.
col_impact, would you allow Deep Striking if a model had this power?
An interesting hypothetical, however, the rule was removed, perhaps for this very reason which is hard to say. On the hypothetical you presented, I would say no simply because it is not part of the model's profile.
A better hypothetical would be an Infantry that can switch between Infantry and Jump/Jet Pack.
"Is a FMC described as moving like JMC"
I say clearly yes
This is all that is required for the rule to take effect. The rule only cares about whether it is described and not about time or context. The Deep Strike USR is granted
Keep in mind the question is always just this: Are FMC described as 'moving like' Jump units? Yes or no.
The answer to your question is: Sometimes.
You missed out on the yes or no part. Sometimes is converted to yes in the rule. The answer would have to be always no for it be no. The question does not care about conditionals. If the answer is yes if its on a Tuesday then the answer is yes.
col_impact wrote: Sometimes is converted to yes in the rule. The answer would have to be always no for it be no.
I have missed your crazy made up ideas col, you've brightened my morning!
When going into reserve, the time it needs Deep Strike, is it described as moving like a jump unit? That's a firm no, as its neither Swooping nor Gliding.
Can it later in the game be described as moving as a Jump Unit? Yes, maybe.
Is it guaranteed? No, the game can end before it deploys, meaning it will never have been described as moving like a jump unit.
Do the rules care what might happen in the future? Of course not!
This idea that you can take a "no" and count it as a "yes" because there's a chance that at some point in the future it *might* be a yes, has zero rules support.
"Sometime in the future, maybe" simply doesn't cut it.
"Is your weapon in range?"
"No, but it might be in two turns time, so I'll shoot anyway!"
This is the rule.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The rule asks you to look at the FMC entry.
The answer for FMC is a firm yes.
Here is the description for FMC during deployment
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
Here is the description for FMC on Tuesdays
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grendel083 wrote: JinxDragon,
There used to be a Psychic Power available to Bangels, it's still in their current Codex but it's use has been FAQ'd to use rulebook powers instead. There's nothing to stop a similar power being introduced in the future. It allowed the model, for a turn, to move like a Jump Unit.
So, hypothetically, if such a power was available would anyone claim it allows the model to Deep Strike? The model now has the potential to at some point in the future, maybe, move like a Jump Unit.
col_impact, would you allow Deep Striking if a model had this power?
Can psychic powers target units in reserve?
Can Psykers that are in reserve manifest psychic powers?
During reserve? No it isn't.
Please provide proff that a Flight Mode can be selected while in Reserve.
The Rules disagree with you, don't allow the use of rules you don't have, or the retroactive granting of rules.
And unless you can find a rule allowing the selection of a Flight Mode on a Tuesday (no such rule exists) then word games won't help you either.
Can psychic powers target units in reserve?
Can Psykers that are in reserve manifest psychic powers?
By your theory, you don't need to.
Simply not having the rule is apprently a good enough reason to use it, if you can somehow, maybe, have a chance of gaining it later.
Grendel, you do understand the argument they are making correct? If i ask you yes or no, is an FMC described as moving like a jump monstrous creature, what is your answer? The answer has to be yes or no, with no additional clarification or altering of the question
During reserve? No it isn't.
Please provide proff that a Flight Mode can be selected while in Reserve.
The Rules disagree with you, don't allow the use of rules you don't have, or the retroactive granting of rules.
And unless you can find a rule allowing the selection of a Flight Mode on a Tuesday (no such rule exists) then word games won't help you either.
Can psychic powers target units in reserve?
Can Psykers that are in reserve manifest psychic powers?
By your theory, you don't need to.
Simply not having the rule is apprently a good enough reason to use it, if you can somehow, maybe, have a chance of gaining it later.
Which of these rules is in the rule book?
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
You are applying a rule that is not in the rule book. B is not in the rule book. You are not allowed to do that. A is in the rule book.
Here is the description during deployment.
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
By your theory, you don't need to.
Simply not having the rule is apprently a good enough reason to use it, if you can somehow, maybe, have a chance of gaining it later.
I have missed your crazy made up ideas col, you've brightened my morning!
This is a lame Strawman attempt. Refrain from insulting me and from strawman arguments.
col_impact wrote: You are applying a rule that is not in the rule book.
Not at all, yet you wish to apply a Special Rule the model doesn't have.
By your theory, you don't need to.
Simply not having the rule is apprently a good enough reason to use it, if you can somehow, maybe, have a chance of gaining it later.
I have missed your crazy made up ideas col, you've brightened my morning!
This is a lame Strawman attempt. Refrain from insulting me and from strawman arguments.
It absolutely isn't. This is exactly your argument. You have even stated that a unit does not have to have a Special Rule at the time in order to use it.
Here's one such quote:
This was your response to using the Deep Strike rule when a unit doesn't have it.
No rule anywhere in the rule book supports using a USR the unit doesn't have (quite the oppersite in fact), and you have failed to supply any rule that allows the use of a USR no present. It's quite litteraly a made up theory.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SaJeel wrote: Grendel, you do understand the argument they are making correct? If i ask you yes or no, is an FMC described as moving like a jump monstrous creature, what is your answer? The answer has to be yes or no, with no additional clarification or altering of the question
Mu would be the correct answer, as it is not a question that can be answered with Yes or No.
When in Reserve? No.
When on the Table? Yes.
SaJell, Demanding another poster to answer "Yes or No" to a question is completely dishonest, it is demanding that a loaded question is answer in such a way that only leads to the answer you desire... regardless if it is truthful or not. In order to better explain this, I have posted a question below which is related to the topic on hand but has removed every context in order to present the question in a fashion that gets the answer I would desire. In answering this question simply post a Yes or a No, I won't even ask you as to the reasons why so you can try and do the only thing that will get you out of the trap: select the answer which leaves you in a weaker position to any follow up questions that will occur.
Can a Model evoke a Rule before it gains access to that Rule?
JinxDragon wrote: SaJell,
Demanding another poster to answer "Yes or No" to a question is completely dishonest, it is demanding that a loaded question is answer in such a way that only leads to the answer you desire... regardless if it is truthful or not. In order to better explain this, I have posted a question below which is related to the topic on hand but has removed every context in order to present the question in a fashion that gets the answer I would desire. In answering this question simply post a Yes or a No, I won't even ask you as to the reasons why so you can try and do the only thing that will get you out of the trap: select the answer which leaves you in a weaker position to any follow up questions that will occur.
Can a Model evoke a Rule before it gains access to that Rule?
FMC have access to the Deep Strike rule at all times.
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
I look at the description and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units"
Deep Strike is granted.
Here is the description for the FMC at all times.
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
Yes, indeed, the FMC is "described as 'moving like' Jump units"
It's not a relevant question. The color of my eyes is blue, thanks for asking. The argument being presented is that FMC have access to Deep Strike at all times per the rule . . .
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The argument being presented is that FMC have access to Deep Strike at all times per the rule
Yet it doesn't. You attempt to drown the reader in a wall of rules, but actually going through it they do not have access to it all times.
Quite a change from your previous stance of they don't have it, but you can still use it as they gain it later (note relevence to above question).
The Flight Mode allows them to move as a JMC. They may not select a Flight Mode in Rederve. Disagree? Then post a rule (not a wall of text in an attempt to decieve, just the line).
If JinxDragon's question is not relevent, it still won't take but a second to answer. Unless you fear the answer will undermine your position?
The argument being presented is that FMC have access to Deep Strike at all times per the rule
Yet it doesn't. You attempt to drown the reader in a wall of rules, but actually going through it they do not have access to it all times.
Quite a change from your previous stance of they don't have it, but you can still use it as they gain it later (note relevence to above question).
The Flight Mode allows them to move as a JMC. They may not select a Flight Mode in Rederve. Disagree? Then post a rule (not a wall of text in an attempt to decieve, just the line).
If JinxDragon's question is not relevent, it still won't take but a second to answer. Unless you fear the answer will undermine your position?
The question is not relevant to the argument being presented.
FMC have access to the Deep Strike rule at all times.
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
I look at the description and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units"
Deep Strike is granted.
You should stick with actually arguing against my argument instead of insulting, strawmanning, or seeking to de-rail with nonrelevant questions.
col_impact wrote: The question is not relevant to the argument being presented.
The whole world and its Dog can see the relevance of this question. And anyone reading this thread will understand clearly your fear of answering it.
FMC have access to the Deep Strike rule at all times.
Shown to be a false statement.
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
I look at the description and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units"
The description is only found in the Swooing and Gliding rules. Neither rule can be called by a unit in reserve. By using this description, you are evoking a rule unavailable to a model. The question you refuse to answer gains relevance here.
Deep Strike is granted.
Again false. Provide a rule allowing use of swooping or gliding in reserve. Page and paragraph please.
You should stick with actually arguing against my argument instead of insulting, strawmanning, or seeking to de-rail with nonrelevant questions.
Your argument has changed constantly. When asked to back up a theory you refuse to post rules. When asked a relevent question you refuse to answer. When rules are posted, they are presented as an unreadable wall of text designed to confuse and bury. You then make a claim not present in these rules and again refuse to back them up. You are not participating in this debate, you are de-railing it.
col_impact wrote: The question is not relevant to the argument being presented.
The whole world and its Dog can see the relevance of this question. And anyone reading this thread will understand clearly your fear of answering it.
FMC have access to the Deep Strike rule at all times.
Shown to be a false statement.
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
I look at the description and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units"
The description is only found in the Swooing and Gliding rules. Neither rule can be called by a unit in reserve. By using this description, you are evoking a rule unavailable to a model. The question you refuse to answer gains relevance here.
Deep Strike is granted.
Again false. Provide a rule allowing use of swooping or gliding in reserve. Page and paragraph please.
You should stick with actually arguing against my argument instead of insulting, strawmanning, or seeking to de-rail with nonrelevant questions.
Your argument has changed constantly. When asked to back up a theory you refuse to post rules. When asked a relevent question you refuse to answer. When rules are posted, they are presented as an unreadable wall of text designed to confuse and bury. You then make a claim not present in these rules and again refuse to back them up. You are not participating in this debate, you are de-railing it.
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The rule simply asks me to look at the FMC entry.
I look at the FMC entry and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units"
Deep Strike is granted.
You are following this rule which does not exist in the rules . . .
"Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Col_Impact, Putting aside that it is a relevant question, the point of that post wasn't the question itself but the part that came before it... the reason as to why demanding your opponent answer Yes or No is a completely dishonest way to debate a Rule.
That question was very much loaded, stripped of all context but presented in a way that still makes it relevant to the topic being discussed. The purpose of such a question is not greater understanding of a Rule, it is designed to force an opponent to take an additional position on the matter. This is done purely to force that person to defend a position they didn't start with, because it is easier to undermine the new position, and should never be done in honest debate. It is a version of a Straw-man, and unless executed in far better format then what I have seen here... an obvious attempt at as Strawman at that.
Either way, by not answering my question as presented you have proven my point as completely valid. So can we please stop demanding people answer Yes or No to loaded questions now?
Since you have declined to answer, I'll take that as admition that you cannot use a Flight Mode while in Reserve. If you feel this is inaccurate, feel free to post the rules as requested.
Based on this admition, since the rule cannot be used but you wish to envoke it anyway, please answer the following:
JinxDragon wrote: Can a Model evoke a Rule before it gains access to that Rule?
JinxDragon wrote: Col_Impact,
Putting aside that it is a relevant question, the point of that post wasn't the question itself but the part that came before it... the reason why demanding your opponent answer Yes or No is completely dishonest. That question is very loaded, stripped of all context but still relevant to the question on hand, as it is designed to force you to defend a position that is harder to fight from. If the answer to that question is Yes, then you open the door to all sorts of insanity such as Re-Rolling all shots because a Psyker may grant you Twin-Linked in the future. If the answer to that question is No, then you are left in a position where you have to argue why this one situation is an exception to the answer you just provided.
Either way, by not answering my question as presented you have proven the point I was trying to make.
Can we please stop demanding people answer Yes or No to loaded questions now?
The reason I don't answer the question is simply because it is not relevant. By answering the question it would give an air of being relevant and enable an attempt at de-railing the discussion into nonrelevant matters.
The question is clearly not relevant to the argument being put forward. My argument is simple and should be directly dealt with without insult, de-rail, or strawmanning.
Since you have declined to answer, I'll take that as admition that you cannot use a Flight Mode while in Reserve. If you feel this is inaccurate, feel free to post the rules as requested.
Based on this admition, since the rule cannot be used but you wish to envoke it anyway, please answer the following:
JinxDragon wrote: Can a Model evoke a Rule before it gains access to that Rule?
Not relevant.
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
In other words for you there is no difference between these two statements . . .
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Clearly A and B are asking us to do different things.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grendel083 wrote: Since you refuse to answer any questions the debate cannot move forward.
I suggest the thread can be closed.
The reason I don't answer the question is simply because it is not relevant. By answering the question it would give an air of being relevant and enable an attempt at de-railing the discussion into nonrelevant matters.
The question is clearly not relevant to the argument being put forward. My argument is simple and should be directly dealt with without insult, de-rail, or strawmanning.
Strange, I don't see 'Not Relevant' as an acceptable answer to this Yes or No Question.
You can try and claim it is "Not Relevant" as much as you want, but in doing so you are proving my point over and over again.... There is no way one can answer the question, as it was presented, without triggering the obvious trap within given how it was formatted and presented. The only sensible thing a reasoning mind would do, when presented with such an obvious trap, is what you are attempting to do here... to provide an answer which better explains why they believe the question is not valid. However, as you have seen personally now, the response of such a move is a demand that the question is answered as presented followed by an accusation that failing to do so proves your point is invalid. The sad part about my post on this point is we now have both sides demanding that loaded questions be answered.
So again: Can both sides stop demanding people answer Yes or No to loaded questions?
JinxDragon wrote: Strange, I don't see 'Not Relevant' as an acceptable answer to this Yes or No Question.
You can try and claim it is "Not Relevant" as much as you want, but by doing so you are proving my point over and over again. There is no way you can answer the question as it was presented in a way that would be honest to your side of the debate, and it was presented in such a way that you have no option but to answer it in a way that leads to that outcome. The sensible and reasoning mind would do what you are attempting to do here, to provide an answer which better explains why they believe the question is not valid. However, as you have seen personally now, the response of such a move is a demand that the question is answered as presented followed by an accusation that failing to do so proves your point is invalid....
So again:
Can both sides stop demanding people answer Yes or No to loaded questions?
I am just declining to answer nonrelevant questions. I don't get suckered into obvious attempts at de-railing. Deal directly with the argument I am putting forward.
col_impact wrote: Is there a difference for you between these two statements?
Not relevent.
That's fine. My argument stands then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JinxDragon wrote: Strange, I don't see 'Not Relevant' as an acceptable answer to this Yes or No Question.
You can try and claim it is "Not Relevant" as much as you want, but in doing so you are proving my point over and over again.
There is no way one can answer the question, as it was presented, without triggering the obvious trap within given how it was formatted and presented. The only sensible thing a reasoning mind would do, when presented with such an obvious trap, is what you are attempting to do here... to provide an answer which better explains why they believe the question is not valid. However, as you have seen personally now, the response of such a move is a demand that the question is answered as presented followed by an accusation that failing to do so proves your point is invalid. The sad part about my post on this point is we now have both sides demanding that loaded questions be answered....
So again:
Can both sides stop demanding people answer Yes or No to loaded questions?
I do wholeheartedly agree that this discussion absolutely stays professional, right Grendel?
Very well, despite you being too rude to answer anyone else.
I look at the FMC entry and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units"
It is described as such in the rules for Swooping and Gliding. Two rules that may not be applied to a FMC while in Reserve.
In order to Justify their use, please provide rules support for using a Flight Mode in Reserve.
If you cannot provide the above rules support, please supply rules support allowing for the use of a Special Rule that is not available to a model.
If you cannot provide rules support for the above, then the use of any description found in the Flight Mode rules cannot be used. This in turn means the model is not described as moving like a JMC.
Deep Strike is denied.
I eargly await your rules support for the above request information.
Very well, despite you being too rude to answer anyone else.
I look at the FMC entry and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units"
It is described as such in the rules for Swooping and Gliding. Two rules that may not be applied to a FMC while in Reserve.
In order to Justify their use, please provide rules support for using a Flight Mode in Reserve.
If you cannot provide the above rules support, please supply rules support allowing for the use of a Special Rule that is not available to a model.
If you cannot provide rules support for the above, then the use of any description found in the Flight Mode rules cannot be used. This in turn means the model is not described as moving like a JMC.
Deep Strike is denied.
I eargly await your rules support for the above request information.
This is my rule support.
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The rule simply asks me to look at the FMC entry.
I look at the FMC entry and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units"
Deep Strike is granted.
In other words I do not conflate these two rule statements.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
You failed to provide any of the requested rules support.
I'll take this as admition that rules support does not exist.
Your postion also supports statement C) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units some point in their future, even if not presently, follow the rules for jump units, and use their special rules."
S.
)
