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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 18:57:57
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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grendel083 wrote:col_impact wrote:declare as used in the game means "make an official proclamation". It does not coincide with choice, although it can. You are adding in the choice. Declare only makes a statement as to the state of things and the state of things could be retroactively true.
So you want to declare and Retroactively apply one of two rules without ever choosing between them, good luck with that.
You're creating more than one impossible situation.
For one, if the game ends before it arrives, you've placed it in Deep Strike Reserve illegally. Shall we retroactivle ignore this break of rules, and pretent we never did it?
Per the rules, I simply tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike
Per the rules you need Deep Strike, when you're delaring it you don't have it. You're just trying to count on it getting it later.
The rules support this. It does not have to have it at the time for me to tell my opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike. Automatically Appended Next Post: Zimko wrote:So each subsequent turn, when you 'declare' a FMC is Swooping you aren't making a choice, you are merely stating what mode it is in? Great so an FMC can never change modes?
By declaring in that case you are indicating what your retroactive choice was, which was made from the start of the turn. Otherwise there is a gap and the FMC assault rules break wide open
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 18:59:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:01:13
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Zimko wrote:So each subsequent turn, when you 'declare' a FMC is Swooping you aren't making a choice, you are merely stating what mode it is in? Great so an FMC can never change modes?
The mode it was always in since time began apparently. Then you need to hop back in time and change all those rules, or maybe tell "Past you" about them, so you can play them all correctly. Changing mode creates a time paradox that whipes out all time.
col_impact wrote:The rules support this. It does not have to have it at the time for me to tell my opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
With the underlined, I think we have truely entered the realm of madness.
"Must have the Deep Strike rule" is pretty clear, Doesn't say "must have it at some point in the future."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:04:07
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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grendel083 wrote:Zimko wrote:So each subsequent turn, when you 'declare' a FMC is Swooping you aren't making a choice, you are merely stating what mode it is in? Great so an FMC can never change modes?
The mode it was always in since time began apparently. Then you need to hop back in time and change all those rules, or maybe tell "Past you" about them, so you can play them all correctly. Changing mode creates a time paradox that whipes out all time.
col_impact wrote:The rules support this. It does not have to have it at the time for me to tell my opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
With the underlined, I think we have truely entered the realm of madness.
"Must have the Deep Strike rule" is pretty clear, Doesn't say "must have it at some point in the future."
Per the rules, I simply tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:08:31
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Rampaging Carnifex
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Lol, so as soon as a psychic power comes out that allows a unit to move like jump infantry, I can simply say "they will be arriving by Deep Strike" and suddenly my whole army can Deep Strike.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:14:23
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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col_impact wrote:Per the rules, I simply tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
I suggest you read the rules for Deep Strike. There is a requirement that the unit actually has the deep strike rule.
Not later, it needs it when it goes into Reserve. And if it never arrives? You've broken the Deep Strike rule. Well done.
And per which rules? The rules for Deep Strike that the unit does not (and might not ever) have yet?
Zimko wrote:Lol, so as soon as a psychic power comes out that allows a unit to move like jump infantry, I can simply say "they will be arriving by Deep Strike" and suddenly my whole army can Deep Strike.
Bangels used to have exactly that power. I kid you not, some tried to make that claim.
Retroactively applying a rule because at some unknown point in the furtre the might get it. Madness.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/18 19:21:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:22:47
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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grendel083 wrote:col_impact wrote:Per the rules, I simply tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
I suggest you read the rules for Deep Strike. There is a requirement that the unit actually has the deep strike rule.
Not later, it needs it when it goes into Reserve. And if it never arrives? You've broken the Deep Strike rule. Well done.
I am reading the rules. You are making up some restriction where there is no restriction. I simply place the unit in Reserve and tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike and then it is placed in Deep Strike Reserve.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 19:24:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:30:30
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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col_impact wrote:I am reading the rules. You are making up some restriction where there is no restriction. I simply place the unit in Reserve and tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike and then it is placed in Deep Strike Reserve.
And which rule are you using here? The only one that covers this is Deep Strike. Is that the rule you're using?
The rule the unit doesn't have?
The rule that states (direct quote): "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule".
If you're using another rule to place this unit into Deep Strike Reserve (and inform your opponent about it), then please quote it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 19:36:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:39:35
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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grendel083 wrote:col_impact wrote:I am reading the rules. You are making up some restriction where there is no restriction. I simply place the unit in Reserve and tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike and then it is placed in Deep Strike Reserve.
And which rule are you using here? The only one that covers this is Deep Strike. Is that the rule you're using?
The rule the unit doesn't have?
The rule that states (direct quote): "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule".
If you're using another rule to place this unit into Deep Strike Reserve (and inform your opponent about it), then please quote it.
Yup, so if I place a some random unit in Deep Strike Reserves and it cannot Deep Strike then it will not be able to Deep Strike per that rule when it tries to arrive via Deep Strike Reserve. It will then have to arrive via Reserves.
If I tell my opponent my FMC will arrive via Deep Strike it is placed in Deep Strike Reserves and it will be able to Deep Strike.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:42:34
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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col_impact wrote:Yup, so if I place a some random unit in Deep Strike Reserves and it cannot Deep Strike then it will not be able to Deep Strike per that rule when it tries to arrive via Deep Strike Reserve. It will then have to arrive via Reserves.
Really? So using a special rule the unit doesn't have is fine, then you can just make up a rule that allows then to use normal reserve instead of the one you didn't declare? You have rules quotes to back this up, naturally?
If I tell my opponent my FMC will arrive via Deep Strike it is placed in Deep Strike Reserves and it will be able to Deep Strike.
So using a Special Rule that the model doesn't have?
You might find this rule relevent:
BRB - What Special Rules Do I Have? wrote:It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Reminds me how you're using a Special Rule on a model that doesn't have this Special Rule, because you might (I say might, it's not garenteed) gain it later on in the game, then claim because you later get it, you didn't break any rule by using it when you didn't have it.
So my units are OK to use the Skyfire rule, despite not having it, because they might capture a Skyfire Nexus objective later in the game? Obviously I'm justifying using a rule they don't have, with the exact same rules you are. And I'm sure you're about to quote the rule that lets you use a USR you don't have, correct?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 19:46:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:47:54
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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grendel083 wrote:col_impact wrote:Yup, so if I place a some random unit in Deep Strike Reserves and it cannot Deep Strike then it will not be able to Deep Strike per that rule when it tries to arrive via Deep Strike Reserve. It will then have to arrive via Reserves.
Really? So using a special rule the unit doesn't have is fine, then you can just make up a rule that allows then to use normal reserve instead of the one you didn't declare? You have rules quotes to back this up, naturally?
If I tell my opponent my FMC will arrive via Deep Strike it is placed in Deep Strike Reserves and it will be able to Deep Strike.
So using a Special Rule that the model doesn't have?
You might find this rule relevent:
BRB - What Special Rules Do I Have? wrote:It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Reminds me how you're using a Special Rule on a model that doesn't have this Special Rule, because you might (I say might, it's not garenteed) gain it later on in the game, then claim because you later get it, you didn't break any rule by using it when you didn't have it.
So my units are OK to use the Skyfire rule, despite not having it, because they might capture a Skyfire Nexus objective later in the game? Obviously I'm justifying using a rule they don't have, with the exact same rules you are. And I'm sure you're about to quote the rule that lets you use a USR you don't have, correct?
I am not using a special rule to tell my opponent that the FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:50:36
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Preacher of the Emperor
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Poor Grendel, i bet your fingers are cramping. Didn't this thread already exist like 4 months ago with a poll that was pretty evenly divided?
I'm in the no Deepstrike camp. It seems pretty cut and dry.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:52:19
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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col_impact wrote:I am not using a special rule to tell my opponent that the FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike.
Which rule are you using then?
They are a bit
We've had time travel, paradoxes from decalaring one of two modes without choosing, using USR's that a unit doesn't have, and apparently inventing rules now. We're just missing a alien cow to complete the set.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 19:54:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:54:07
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I tell my opponent that it will be arriving via Deep Strike.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:57:56
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Ok, so no rule. And lying to your opponent, got it
So they go into Reserve, you then say it's using a special rule it doesn't have, in order to use it while not using it.
What if your opponent ask: "Arriving via Deep Strike, the unit has Deep Strike then?"
Are you honest and say "No", or Lie and say "yes"?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:58:30
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Preacher of the Emperor
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I wish they would have made the distinction between FMC and MC more clear. They really should have left out the rule about being a MC with additional rules. They should have just used the extra page and repeated the shared rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:59:45
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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grendel083 wrote:Ok, so no rule. And lying to your opponent, got it
So they go into Reserve, you then say it's using a special rule it doesn't have, in order to use it while not using it.
What if your opponent ask: "Arriving via Deep Strike, the unit has Deep Strike then?"
Are you honest and say "No", or Lie and say "yes"?
What part of will be arriving via Deep Strike is a lie?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:07:25
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Rampaging Carnifex
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Where are you going with this? You need the special rule 'Deep Strike' to arrive via Deep Strike.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:07:48
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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The part where it is arriving via Deep Strike without using the Deep Strike rules.
That you claimed it would be arriving from Deep Strike, when the unit doesn't have the rule and has not fulfilled the requirement of the rule.
You can't arrive from Deep Strike without using the rule for Deep Strike. You're inventing a rule with this Declaration, it isn't a rule.
You're using a rule the model doesn't have.
You're taking a conversation you have with your opponent, and claiming that fulfills the requirements of a rule. Madness.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 20:11:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:14:51
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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grendel083 wrote:The part where it is arriving via Deep Strike without using the Deep Strike rules.
That you claimed it would be arriving from Deep Strike, when the unit doesn't have the rule and has not fulfilled the requirement of the rule.
You can't arrive from Deep Strike without using the rule for Deep Strike. You're inventing a rule with this Declaration, it isn't a rule.
You're using a rule the model doesn't have.
You're taking a conversation you have with your opponent, and claiming that fulfills the requirements of a rule. Madness.
I tell my opponent it will arrive via Deep Strike and the FMC will have Swooping and Jump and Deep Strike per the FMC rules when it actually needs the USR.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:21:01
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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col_impact wrote:I tell my opponent it will arrive via Deep Strike and the FMC will have Swooping and Jump and Deep Strike per the FMC rules when it actually needs the USR.
When it actually needs it is when it goes into reserve, as per the deep strike rules. Deep Strike is CRYSTAL CLEAR on this.
What you tell your opponent has no bearing on the rules. You could tell your opponent you like dancing in the rain for all the rules cares.
Telling your opponent this fulfils no rules.
You're inventing rules to allow a unit to Deep Strike, without having the rule, without meeting the rules requirements, and without following this rule.
Claiming its arriving from Deep Strike having not used the Deep Strike USR, is breaking rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 20:22:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:26:30
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You have been given it. FMCs move two ways. Both are Jump. You then claim FMCs move some third way, which is proven wrong.
I need to show nothing more. It is clearly written in the book that both "move like Jump". You cannot find a way that a FMC moves that is not jump.
Until you find a way that FMCs can move that is not "like Jump" your argument is void.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:27:44
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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On a side note: Somebody pointed out earlier in this thread that Daemon FMCs all have the Deep Strike rule. You'll also note that Daemon FMCs are the only FMCs with the Deep Strike rule (listed). Furthermore, you will also note that all Daemons (including those that are jump or jet pack) also have the Deep Strike rule listed.
Not claiming it is relevant, but there it is.
Furthermore, while I agree with col_impact on legality (due to the fact the rules describe FMCs as moving like Jump units), I do disagree with his arguments.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:28:12
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Are you referring to Flight Modes?
Please quote a rule allowing you to select either while in reserve. Page and paragraph please.
Happyjew wrote:due to the fact the rules describe FMCs as moving like Jump units.
It's the same repeating argument.
Only the Flight Modes allow them to be described as moving as such. And neither can be selected while in Reserve.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 20:31:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:29:43
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Deviantduck, Even without specific instruction that Flying Monstrous Creature are Monstrous Creatures, the Model in question still has access to a 6 inch Move as that is granted by a Basic Rule. As per Basic Vs Advanced, all Basic Rules apply to every Model and Unit Types are not a disqualifying factor, as that Rule lacks mention of them let alone informing us to discount x or y Unit Types from any Basic Rule. It doesn't come up much in relation to Flyers or Flying Monstrous Creatures, they have more Advanced Rules telling us that they must move in a way which is not default, but that default method does not suddenly go away simply because the Unit is more then infantry. So back to the original question: If the Rule forcing non-default movement has a specific Timing involved, what forces/allows the Model to use the non-default movement prior to that point in time?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/18 20:38:03
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:29:50
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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grendel083 wrote:col_impact wrote:I tell my opponent it will arrive via Deep Strike and the FMC will have Swooping and Jump and Deep Strike per the FMC rules when it actually needs the USR.
When it actually needs it is when it goes into reserve, as per the deep strike rules. Deep Strike is CRYSTAL CLEAR on this.
What you tell your opponent has no bearing on the rules. You could tell your opponent you like dancing in the rain for all the rules cares.
Telling your opponent this fulfils no rules.
You're inventing rules to allow a unit to Deep Strike, without having the rule, without meeting the rules requirements, and without following this rule.
Claiming its arriving from Deep Strike having not used the Deep Strike USR, is breaking rules.
Deep strike units don't automatically go into Deep Strike Reserves. They can be placed in just the Reserves and walk on the board. They must be designated as arriving via Deep Strike. That designation is called Deep Strike Reserves.
I place the FMC in Reserves and tell my opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike. That designation is called Deep Strike Reserves.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:31:03
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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grendel083 wrote:Are you referring to Flight Modes?
Please quote a rule allowing you to select either while in reserve. Page and paragraph please.
Show how it is relevant. FMCS can move by one of two flight modes...... Both are Jump.
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units,
Show how either mode is not described as moving like Jump.....
You cant do it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:33:43
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Fragile wrote: grendel083 wrote:Are you referring to Flight Modes?
Please quote a rule allowing you to select either while in reserve. Page and paragraph please.
Show how it is relevant. FMCS can move by one of two flight modes...... Both are Jump.
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units,
Show how either mode is not described as moving like Jump.....
You cant do it.
You're using a rule the unit can't use. Similar to col_impact using a USR a model doesn't have.
You can't select Gliding, you can't select Swooping. Without referencing rules you can't use, how is it described as moving?
You're taking "described" as "later potentially described".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:Deep strike units don't automatically go into Deep Strike Reserves. They can be placed in just the Reserves and walk on the board. They must be designated as arriving via Deep Strike. That designation is called Deep Strike Reserves.
Correct, as per the Deep Strike Rules.
I place the FMC in Reserves and tell my opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike. That designation is called Deep Strike Reserves.
Tell your opponent it's a fish, for all the good it'll do. Doesn't make it so.
As per the deep strike rules you need the Deep Strike USR to be considered in Deep Strike Reserve.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/18 20:42:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:44:06
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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grendel083 wrote:Fragile wrote: grendel083 wrote:Are you referring to Flight Modes?
Please quote a rule allowing you to select either while in reserve. Page and paragraph please.
Show how it is relevant. FMCS can move by one of two flight modes...... Both are Jump.
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units,
Show how either mode is not described as moving like Jump.....
You cant do it.
You're using a rule the unit can't use. Similar to col_impact using a USR a model doesn't have.
You can't select Gliding, you can't select Swooping. Without referencing rules you can't use, how is it described as moving?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:Deep strike units don't automatically go into Deep Strike Reserves. They can be placed in just the Reserves and walk on the board. They must be designated as arriving via Deep Strike. That designation is called Deep Strike Reserves.
Correct, as per the Deep Strike Rules.
I place the FMC in Reserves and tell my opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike. That designation is called Deep Strike Reserves.
Tell your opponent it's a fish, for all the good it'll do. Doesn't make it so.
As per the deep strike rules you need the Deep Strike USR to be considered in Deep Strike Reserve.
The rules don't say that. You need the Deep Strike USR to be able to Deep Strike (that's in the rules) but there is no restriction saying you can only designate units with Deep Strike for Deep Strike Reserve. Simply by telling the opponent that a unit will be deep striking designates it Deep Strike Reserve.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:49:03
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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col_impact wrote:The rules don't say that. You need the Deep Strike USR to be able to Deep Strike (that's in the rules) but there is no restriction saying you can only designate units with Deep Strike for Deep Strike Reserve. Simply by telling the opponent that a unit will be deep striking designates it Deep Strike Reserve.
The Rules disagree.
Telling your opponent something doesn't make it so.
As per the Deep Strike rule (which believe it or not, is required for Deep Striking), the unit wanting to arrive via Deep Strike must have the Deep Strike rule and be in Reserve. That is Deep Strike Reserve. Anything else isn't Deep Strike reserve. It's made up.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 20:49:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 20:52:01
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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grendel083 wrote:col_impact wrote:The rules don't say that. You need the Deep Strike USR to be able to Deep Strike (that's in the rules) but there is no restriction saying you can only designate units with Deep Strike for Deep Strike Reserve. Simply by telling the opponent that a unit will be deep striking designates it Deep Strike Reserve.
The Rules disagree.
Telling your opponent something doesn't make it so.
As per the Deep Strike rule (which believe it or not, is required for Deep Striking), the unit wanting to arrive via Deep Strike must have the Deep Strike rule and be in Reserve. That is Deep Strike Reserve. Anything else isn't Deep Strike reserve. It's made up.
Wrong. If you don't tell your opponent that that unit will be arriving via Deep Strike then it can only walk on via Reserve.
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