Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/11/19 03:06:15
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
coredump wrote: At *all times* a FMC has to be either Swooping or Gliding.
This is demonstrably untrue.
When a FMC is in reserves it is not Swooping or Gliding.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2014/11/19 06:01:33
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
Please give a rule that says that a fmc is gliding or swooping before it moves.
The "third option" is it is neither gliding nor swooping. Read the section of Deployment for FMCs
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/19 06:25:54
2014/11/19 06:23:52
Subject: Re:Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
Col_impact i reached that same conclusion, the problem with that, is gliding and swooping both are phrased in a manner that negates them before they are deployed. At the start of the game when a FMC is in reserves you cant reach the pharse " it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature," without first breaking an if statement. Now a case could be made, that because it is in the rules for gliding and swooping, and gliding and swooping are under the FMC description an FMC is "described as moving like a jump unit" as that statement is 100% correct. the Problem arisies when you insert qualifiers, however the rule for being described as moving like a jump unit has no qualifiers, so tbh its a bit of a tough call
2014/11/19 06:35:57
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
SaJeel wrote: Col_impact i reached that same conclusion, the problem with that, is gliding and swooping both are phrased in a manner that negates them before they are deployed. At the start of the game when a FMC is in reserves you cant reach the pharse " it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature," without first breaking an if statement. Now a case could be made, that because it is in the rules for gliding and swooping, and gliding and swooping are under the FMC description an FMC is "described as moving like a jump unit" as that statement is 100% correct. the Problem arisies when you insert qualifiers, however the rule for being described as moving like a jump unit has no qualifiers, so tbh its a bit of a tough call
The rule does not care about conditionals. The rule cares about descriptions. The rule only cares if Swooping or Gliding are on the FMC description. They are. So it grants the Special Rule.
2014/11/19 06:36:02
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
It really all depends on how you group your priority, and if the pharse "described as moving like a jump unit" is time sensitive or not, tbh because of the finicky nature of English both grendels and col_impacts interpretations are unfortunately logical and free of fallacy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/19 06:38:26
2014/11/19 06:39:03
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
SaJeel wrote: It really all depends on how you group your priority, and if the pharse "described as moving like a jump unit" is time sensitive or not, tbh because of the finicky nature of English both interpretations are unfortunately logical and free of fallacy.
The rule would have to say "at all times" or "at the current time" to actually become time sensitive. As stated, it is not time sensitive.
Basically the question is asked: Are FMC described as 'moving like' Jump units? Yes or no.
Look at the FMC description and answer that question.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/19 06:46:54
2014/11/19 06:50:26
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
"Is a FMC described as moving like JMC"
I say clearly yes
but when I ask myself
"At the time of Deepstriking is a FMC ever described as moving like a JMC"
I firmly say no
So the question is with regards to gaining Deepstrike, which of the two stances does it reference
" Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The phrasing of the above rule... makes me lean towards a timeless nonspecific interpretation, but it truly is an interpretation. Anyone who has actually read through all this( and by this i mean all of this thread) should be able to understand how col_impact and Grendel both make sense and how neither of them is wrong in their interpretations however, my gut feeling sides more with col_impact tho i can't say Grendel is by any means wrong, if anything i have more weight in his interpretation RAW
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you read the rule
"Units that are ever described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Col_impact is correct
Grendel is incorrect
If it is read
"When Units are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units they follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Grendel is correct
Col_impact is incorrect
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/19 06:56:59
2014/11/19 06:55:51
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
"Is a FMC described as moving like JMC"
I say clearly yes
This is all that is required for the rule to take effect. The rule only cares about whether it is described and not about time or context. The Deep Strike USR is granted
Keep in mind the question is always just this: Are FMC described as 'moving like' Jump units? Yes or no.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/19 06:59:54
2014/11/19 07:09:01
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
"Is a FMC described as moving like JMC"
I say clearly yes
This is all that is required for the rule to take effect. The rule only cares about whether it is described and not about time or context. The Deep Strike USR is granted
Keep in mind the question is always just this: Are FMC described as 'moving like' Jump units? Yes or no.
The answer to your question is: Sometimes.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2014/11/19 07:14:34
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
"Is a FMC described as moving like JMC"
I say clearly yes
This is all that is required for the rule to take effect. The rule only cares about whether it is described and not about time or context. The Deep Strike USR is granted
Keep in mind the question is always just this: Are FMC described as 'moving like' Jump units? Yes or no.
The answer to your question is: Sometimes.
You missed out on the yes or no part. Sometimes is converted to yes in the rule. The answer would have to be always no for it be no. The question does not care about conditionals. If the answer is yes if its on a Tuesday then the answer is yes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/19 07:22:46
2014/11/19 07:47:39
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
SaJeel wrote: Please give a rule that says that a fmc is gliding or swooping before it moves.
The "third option" is it is neither gliding nor swooping. Read the section of Deployment for FMCs
It would never be written that way unfortunately because those rules deal with movement, problem is your never going to write a rule about movement at a time its not yet reached.... movement. 6th they didn't even have the foresight to note flying mode for FMC after deep striking in the BRB.
In any case, I agree with Col / Fragile on it, though this thread has come up before I doubt any new information will be pulled forward to persuade either side.
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic
2014/11/19 08:33:14
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
col_impact wrote: Sometimes is converted to yes in the rule. The answer would have to be always no for it be no.
I have missed your crazy made up ideas col, you've brightened my morning!
When going into reserve, the time it needs Deep Strike, is it described as moving like a jump unit? That's a firm no, as its neither Swooping nor Gliding.
Can it later in the game be described as moving as a Jump Unit? Yes, maybe.
Is it guaranteed? No, the game can end before it deploys, meaning it will never have been described as moving like a jump unit.
Do the rules care what might happen in the future? Of course not!
This idea that you can take a "no" and count it as a "yes" because there's a chance that at some point in the future it *might* be a yes, has zero rules support.
"Sometime in the future, maybe" simply doesn't cut it.
"Is your weapon in range?"
"No, but it might be in two turns time, so I'll shoot anyway!"
2014/11/19 08:45:25
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
Grendel083, If it wasn't for the fact the Y'Vahra is a Jet-pack Monstrous Creature, and therefore has the Deep Strike Special Rule through the Jet-Pack Unit Type, I would have asked them how they would handle that thing. It has access to the one of the movement type granted to a Flying Monsters Creature but only during a specific Phase, after a Random Chance element and only if the player decides to use it instead of the three other choices. However, by their logic, that would be enough in order to Deep Strike it even if it wasn't for the Unit Type it begun with because it has access to a Rule which describes it as moving like a Jump Pack Unit....
However, instead of focusing on the core of the problem that Unit would create with their interpretation we already know the opposition would simply take the easy way out by repeating 'it is a Jet-Pack Unit' over and over again....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/19 08:48:40
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
2014/11/19 08:52:39
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
JinxDragon,
There used to be a Psychic Power available to Bangels, it's still in their current Codex but it's use has been FAQ'd to use rulebook powers instead. There's nothing to stop a similar power being introduced in the future. It allowed the model, for a turn, to move like a Jump Unit.
So, hypothetically, if such a power was available would anyone claim it allows the model to Deep Strike? The model now has the potential to at some point in the future, maybe, move like a Jump Unit.
col_impact, would you allow Deep Striking if a model had this power?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/19 08:53:07
2014/11/19 10:27:41
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
grendel083 wrote: JinxDragon,
There used to be a Psychic Power available to Bangels, it's still in their current Codex but it's use has been FAQ'd to use rulebook powers instead. There's nothing to stop a similar power being introduced in the future. It allowed the model, for a turn, to move like a Jump Unit.
So, hypothetically, if such a power was available would anyone claim it allows the model to Deep Strike? The model now has the potential to at some point in the future, maybe, move like a Jump Unit.
col_impact, would you allow Deep Striking if a model had this power?
An interesting hypothetical, however, the rule was removed, perhaps for this very reason which is hard to say. On the hypothetical you presented, I would say no simply because it is not part of the model's profile.
A better hypothetical would be an Infantry that can switch between Infantry and Jump/Jet Pack.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/11/19 10:30:20
2014/11/19 16:19:10
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
"Is a FMC described as moving like JMC"
I say clearly yes
This is all that is required for the rule to take effect. The rule only cares about whether it is described and not about time or context. The Deep Strike USR is granted
Keep in mind the question is always just this: Are FMC described as 'moving like' Jump units? Yes or no.
The answer to your question is: Sometimes.
You missed out on the yes or no part. Sometimes is converted to yes in the rule. The answer would have to be always no for it be no. The question does not care about conditionals. If the answer is yes if its on a Tuesday then the answer is yes.
It is not a simple yes/no question.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2014/11/19 17:10:51
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
col_impact wrote: Sometimes is converted to yes in the rule. The answer would have to be always no for it be no.
I have missed your crazy made up ideas col, you've brightened my morning!
When going into reserve, the time it needs Deep Strike, is it described as moving like a jump unit? That's a firm no, as its neither Swooping nor Gliding.
Can it later in the game be described as moving as a Jump Unit? Yes, maybe.
Is it guaranteed? No, the game can end before it deploys, meaning it will never have been described as moving like a jump unit.
Do the rules care what might happen in the future? Of course not!
This idea that you can take a "no" and count it as a "yes" because there's a chance that at some point in the future it *might* be a yes, has zero rules support.
"Sometime in the future, maybe" simply doesn't cut it.
"Is your weapon in range?"
"No, but it might be in two turns time, so I'll shoot anyway!"
This is the rule.
Spoiler:
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The rule asks you to look at the FMC entry.
The answer for FMC is a firm yes.
Here is the description for FMC during deployment
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
Here is the description for FMC on Tuesdays
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grendel083 wrote: JinxDragon,
There used to be a Psychic Power available to Bangels, it's still in their current Codex but it's use has been FAQ'd to use rulebook powers instead. There's nothing to stop a similar power being introduced in the future. It allowed the model, for a turn, to move like a Jump Unit.
So, hypothetically, if such a power was available would anyone claim it allows the model to Deep Strike? The model now has the potential to at some point in the future, maybe, move like a Jump Unit.
col_impact, would you allow Deep Striking if a model had this power?
Can psychic powers target units in reserve?
Can Psykers that are in reserve manifest psychic powers?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/19 17:19:19
2014/11/19 17:39:35
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
During reserve? No it isn't.
Please provide proff that a Flight Mode can be selected while in Reserve.
The Rules disagree with you, don't allow the use of rules you don't have, or the retroactive granting of rules.
And unless you can find a rule allowing the selection of a Flight Mode on a Tuesday (no such rule exists) then word games won't help you either.
Can psychic powers target units in reserve?
Can Psykers that are in reserve manifest psychic powers?
By your theory, you don't need to.
Simply not having the rule is apprently a good enough reason to use it, if you can somehow, maybe, have a chance of gaining it later.
2014/11/19 17:46:53
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
Grendel, you do understand the argument they are making correct? If i ask you yes or no, is an FMC described as moving like a jump monstrous creature, what is your answer? The answer has to be yes or no, with no additional clarification or altering of the question
(also understand i 100% understand your argument)
2014/11/19 17:48:09
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
During reserve? No it isn't.
Please provide proff that a Flight Mode can be selected while in Reserve.
The Rules disagree with you, don't allow the use of rules you don't have, or the retroactive granting of rules.
And unless you can find a rule allowing the selection of a Flight Mode on a Tuesday (no such rule exists) then word games won't help you either.
Can psychic powers target units in reserve?
Can Psykers that are in reserve manifest psychic powers?
By your theory, you don't need to.
Simply not having the rule is apprently a good enough reason to use it, if you can somehow, maybe, have a chance of gaining it later.
Which of these rules is in the rule book?
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
You are applying a rule that is not in the rule book. B is not in the rule book. You are not allowed to do that. A is in the rule book.
Here is the description during deployment.
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
By your theory, you don't need to.
Simply not having the rule is apprently a good enough reason to use it, if you can somehow, maybe, have a chance of gaining it later.
I have missed your crazy made up ideas col, you've brightened my morning!
This is a lame Strawman attempt. Refrain from insulting me and from strawman arguments.
2014/11/19 17:52:56
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
col_impact wrote: You are applying a rule that is not in the rule book.
Not at all, yet you wish to apply a Special Rule the model doesn't have.
By your theory, you don't need to.
Simply not having the rule is apprently a good enough reason to use it, if you can somehow, maybe, have a chance of gaining it later.
I have missed your crazy made up ideas col, you've brightened my morning!
This is a lame Strawman attempt. Refrain from insulting me and from strawman arguments.
It absolutely isn't. This is exactly your argument. You have even stated that a unit does not have to have a Special Rule at the time in order to use it.
Here's one such quote:
This was your response to using the Deep Strike rule when a unit doesn't have it.
No rule anywhere in the rule book supports using a USR the unit doesn't have (quite the oppersite in fact), and you have failed to supply any rule that allows the use of a USR no present. It's quite litteraly a made up theory.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SaJeel wrote: Grendel, you do understand the argument they are making correct? If i ask you yes or no, is an FMC described as moving like a jump monstrous creature, what is your answer? The answer has to be yes or no, with no additional clarification or altering of the question
Mu would be the correct answer, as it is not a question that can be answered with Yes or No.
When in Reserve? No.
When on the Table? Yes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/19 18:02:51
2014/11/19 18:01:35
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
SaJell, Demanding another poster to answer "Yes or No" to a question is completely dishonest, it is demanding that a loaded question is answer in such a way that only leads to the answer you desire... regardless if it is truthful or not. In order to better explain this, I have posted a question below which is related to the topic on hand but has removed every context in order to present the question in a fashion that gets the answer I would desire. In answering this question simply post a Yes or a No, I won't even ask you as to the reasons why so you can try and do the only thing that will get you out of the trap: select the answer which leaves you in a weaker position to any follow up questions that will occur.
Can a Model evoke a Rule before it gains access to that Rule?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/19 18:02:53
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
2014/11/19 18:19:58
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
JinxDragon wrote: SaJell,
Demanding another poster to answer "Yes or No" to a question is completely dishonest, it is demanding that a loaded question is answer in such a way that only leads to the answer you desire... regardless if it is truthful or not. In order to better explain this, I have posted a question below which is related to the topic on hand but has removed every context in order to present the question in a fashion that gets the answer I would desire. In answering this question simply post a Yes or a No, I won't even ask you as to the reasons why so you can try and do the only thing that will get you out of the trap: select the answer which leaves you in a weaker position to any follow up questions that will occur.
Can a Model evoke a Rule before it gains access to that Rule?
FMC have access to the Deep Strike rule at all times.
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
I look at the description and the FMC is indeed "described as 'moving like' Jump units"
Deep Strike is granted.
Here is the description for the FMC at all times.
Spoiler:
FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
Flying Monstrous Creatures are massive winged monstrosities that are
essentially ferocious living aircraft.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional
rules.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding
mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play,
you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous
Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
SPECIAL RULES
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous
Creatures also have the Jink and Vector Strike special rules.
FLIGHT MODES
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
Changing Flight Mode
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight
modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump
Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous
Creature, with the following exceptions:
• It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
• Due to its limited manoeuvrability, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can
make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter it must move
directly forwards in a straight line. As many Flying Monstrous Creatures are mounted
on circular or oval bases, it’s not always clear which way is forward. If in doubt, just
make sure you use the same point on the base as the ‘front’ for the entire game.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and
impassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying
Monstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• Models that physically fit under a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can move
beneath it. Likewise, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can end its move over such
models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from
the base of the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and it cannot end its move with its
base within 1" of other enemy models.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight
forwards if Swooping.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping.
• A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.
Swooping Hunters
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even
when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore, fire up to two of their weapons
normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don’t Run). Flying Monstrous Creatures
can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.
In addition, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can choose whether or not to
use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each phase. They don’t have to use the Skyfire
special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the
Skyfire special rule.
Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.
Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or
not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves.
Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to
the battlefield).
A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it
entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way
that it will not leave the board on this turn.
Grounded Tests
If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds
during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.
To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains
control and suffers no additional effect.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single
Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A
Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is treated as if it is in Glide mode with immediate
effect, and can therefore be charged in the following Assault phase. Furthermore, a
Grounded model automatically loses any saving throw granted by the Jink special rule (if
it had one) until the start of its next Movement phase and cannot Jink for the rest of the
current turn. A Grounded model can revert to Swoop mode again in its next turn.
Note that if a Flying Monstrous Creature is Grounded during the enemy’s turn, it will
start its own Movement phase in Glide mode and so can declare a charge during its turn if
it chooses to do so, unless it chooses to change flight modes.
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Tank Shock
Due to their high altitude and manoeuvrability, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock a Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creature – if the vehicle would end up underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature, move the vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from
the base of the Flying Monstrous Creature.
Yes, indeed, the FMC is "described as 'moving like' Jump units"
2014/11/19 18:24:02
Subject: Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike
It's not a relevant question. The color of my eyes is blue, thanks for asking. The argument being presented is that FMC have access to Deep Strike at all times per the rule . . .
"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
