Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike

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**col_impact**

grendel083 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
You can satisfy requirements without following a rule. It is clear when a unit is actually deep striking, unless you want to be obtuse about it.
Yes you can meet the requirements, but if you're not following the rule that doesn't mean anything. And you're still trying to meet the requirements of a rule a unit doesn't actually have.

And you can't fulfill the requirements at the time they are needed. The rules do not support you retroactively meeting requirements

"I'll do it later" doesn't cut it.

Nothing prevents me from putting the FMC in reserves and nothing prevents me from telling the opponent the FMC will be arriving by Deep Strike. The Deep Strike rule does not have to be in effect for me to do those two things. When I indeed Deep Strike it is only important at that I have met those requirements.

**grendel083**

col_impact wrote:
Nothing prevents me from putting the FMC in reserves

True,

and nothing prevents me from telling the opponent the FMC will be arriving by Deep Strike.

Technically you can your opponent whatever you like. What you're telling your oppoenent is incorrect in terms of rules, but yes you can tell them that. Tell them they're a fish if you really want, rules won't make that true either.
Bare in mind; Telling them it will arrive from Deep Strike, and the rules actually allowing it to arrive from Deep Strike are two different things. You can do the former, but can't legally do the later,

The Deep Strike rule does not have to be in effect for me to do those two things.

No, but if you want the unit to actually arrive from Deep Strike (and not just tell your opponent about your non-rules supported wish) then they really do need to be in effect.

"This unit will arrive via deep strike"
"Does it have the Deep Strike rule?"
"No....."

**JinxDragon**

Col_impact,
Why would we bother trying to satisfy a requirement if we are not evoking/following/obeying, or doing anything else that would represent the use of a Rule?

**col_impact**

grendel083 wrote:

"This unit will arrive via deep strike"
"Does it have the Deep Strike rule?"
"No....."

So this conversation is happening at turn two?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Col_impact,
Why would we bother trying to satisfy a requirement if we are not evoking/following/obeying, or doing anything else that would represent the use of a Rule?

You should answer whether a requirement for a rule can be satisfied (happenstance or whatever) without following the rule.

**grendel083**

col_impact wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
"This unit will arrive via deep strike"
"Does it have the Deep Strike rule?"
"No....."
So this conversation is happening at turn two?

No, that would happen during deployment when it goes into reserve.

Turn 2's conversation would be:

"This unit is arriving via Deep Strike"
"As pointed out during deployment, it was never in Deep Strike Reserve, so no it isn't. Pack your models up col, I'm tired of your made up rules"

If a unit of Imperial Guard charge into combat, they have met the requirements of Furious Charge.
But they don't have that rule, so it doesn't matter.

**SaJeel**

col_impact wrote:

Nothing prevents me from putting the FMC in reserves and nothing prevents me from telling the opponent the FMC will be arriving by Deep Strike. The Deep Strike rule does not have to be in effect for me to do those two things. When I indeed Deep Strike it is only important at that I have met those requirements.

Saddly until the model moves, it doesnt have deepstrike
to look to the rules
"If the model is Gliding"-it moves like jump
"if the model is swooping"-it moves like jump
If it moves like jump it has Deepstrike
I look at my model before it has entered the game,
I ask is it gliding... no... i ask is it swooping... no... dam it doesnt have jump, so it doesnt have deepstrike

**col_impact**

grendel083 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
"This unit will arrive via deep strike"
"Does it have the Deep Strike rule?"
"No....."
So this conversation is happening at turn two?
No, that would happen during deployment when it goes into reserve.

Turn 2's conversation would be:

"This unit is arriving via Deep Strike"
"As pointed out during deployment, it was never in Deep Strike Reserve, so no it isn't. Pack your models up col, I'm tired of your made up rules"

If a unit of Imperial Guard cgarge into combat, they have met the requirements of Furious Charge.
But they don't have that rule, so it doesn't matter.

The FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike is a true statement.

If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, yes. Your counter example doesn't actually provide any counter.

**grendel083**

col_impact wrote:
The FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike is a true statement.

No it isn't, you've failed to meet the requirements of Deep Strike, The unit have not been placed in Deep Strike reserve, and most importantly: The unit doesn't have Deep Strike.
Meeting the requirements of a rule the unit doesn't have means absolutley nothing.

If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, yes. Your counter example doesn't actually provide any counter.

It's using the same logic as you. Trying to use a Special rule the unit doesn't have. Meeting the Requirements of a Special Rule they don't have, then claiming they can use it when at the time they need it, they don't have it.

**col_impact**

grendel083 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
The FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike is a true statement.
No it isn't, you've failed to meet the requirements of Deep Strike, The unit have not been placed in Deep Strike reserve, and most importantly: The unit doesn't have Deep Strike.
Meeting the requirements of a rule the unit doesn't have means absolutley nothing.

If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, yes. Your counter example doesn't actually provide any counter.
It's using the same logic as you. Trying to use a Special rule the unit doesn't have. Meeting the Requirements of a Special Rule they don't have, then claiming they can use it when at the time they need it, they don't have it.

It's not the same logic as all. I am saying you can satisfy requirements for a rule that will be on the profile in the future and invoked in the future.

**SaJeel**

"If the model is Gliding"-it moves like jump
"if the model is swooping"-it moves like jump
If it moves like jump it has Deepstrike
Swooping or gliding is determined once a model moves
A model that has been in reserves and has never moved is neither swooping nor gliding, and therefore doesnt have the deepstrike rule

Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
"If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, yes. Your counter example doesn't actually provide any counter."

This above statement isnt the same thing as the FMC arguement it would be more like

"If the imperail guard runs 6 inches it has furious charge. If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, "

**grendel083**

col_impact wrote:
It's not the same logic as all. I am saying you can satisfy requirements for a rule that will be on the profile in the future and invoked in the future.

No, you can't meet them.

To use the Deep Strike rule, the unit needs the Deep Strike rule. We stop here, you havn't met this basic requirement.

Let's look at the requirements to fulfill this rule. No, you don't have it, there's no looking at it, none of it applies.

But lets look anyway: First requirement - "All models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule" - fail, unit doesn't have it.

Going into Deep Strike Reserve? No, that requires the use of the Deep Strike USR (which the unit doesn't have), and it has also failed the requirement to use it. A double fail.

Does telling your opponent it will arrive from Deep Strike mean it is in Deep Strike Reserve? No, that means invoking the Deep Strike rule. Again the unit doesn't have it, and fails the requirement to use it.

Gaining Deep Strike later, does not allow you to retroactively claim to have met requirements that you failed to meet when they were needed - during deployment.

**col_impact**

SaJeel wrote:
"If the model is Gliding"-it moves like jump
"if the model is swooping"-it moves like jump
If it moves like jump it has Deepstrike
Swooping or gliding is determined once a model moves
A model that has been in reserves and has never moved is neither swooping nor gliding, and therefore doesnt have the deepstrike rule

Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
"If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, yes. Your counter example doesn't actually provide any counter."

This above statement isnt the same thing as the FMC arguement it would be more like

"If the imperail guard runs 6 inches it has furious charge. If the imperial guard has the furious charge rule it will come into effect when the unit charges, "

During deployment,
I put the FMC in reserves, any issue with that?
I tell the opponent the FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike, any issue with that?

**grendel083**

col_impact wrote:
During deployment,
I put the FMC in reserves, any issue with that?

No

I tell the opponent the FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike, any issue with that?

Yes, it's lying to your opponent.
It won't be arriving via Deep Strike, because the unit doesn't have it, and fails to meet the requiments of it. What you're telling your opponent isn't true.

**col_impact**

grendel083 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
During deployment,
I put the FMC in reserves, any issue with that?
No

I tell the opponent the FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike, any issue with that?
Yes, it's lying to your opponent.

I tell the opponent the FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike

**grendel083**

col_impact wrote:
I tell the opponent the FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike

Fine tell them that.
Rules don't allow it, but you tell them how you're using a rule the unit doesn't have.

Telling them this incorrect statement doesn't make rule-wishes come true.

**col_impact**

grendel083 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
I tell the opponent the FMC will be arriving via Deep Strike
Fine tell them that.
Rules don't allow it, but you tell them how you're using a rule the unit doesn't have.

Telling them this incorrect statement doesn't make rule-wishes come true.

I am not using any rule at the time. I am merely satisfying a requirement that will be required in the future.

**grendel083**

col_impact wrote:
I am not using any rule at the time.

Exactly. And that is why saying this to your oppenent makes no difference.

I am merely satisfying a requirement that will be required in the future.

Requirement of what? There's no rule present that requires this. You've fulfilled nothing.

And later you wish to claim you were in Deep Strike Reserve, when it wasn't. This follows no rules, and insane logic.

**JinxDragon**

Col_Impact,
While it is possible to know a requirement ahead of time, we are rational beings able to plot the future after all, we unable to satisfy the requirement till it actually exists.
Simple knowledge of a yet-to-exist requirement does not outright grant us permission to complete any action required to meet that not-yet-existent Requirement....

Even one as simple as 'announce to your opponent.'

**col_impact**

JinxDragon wrote:
Col_Impact,
While it is possible to know a requirement ahead of time, we are rational beings able to plot the future after all, we unable to satisfy the requirement till it actually exists.
Simple knowledge of a yet-to-exist requirement does not outright grant us permission to complete any action required to meet that not-yet-existent Requirement....

Even one as simple as 'announce to your opponent.'

A deep strike happens at a moment in the game. All the requirements simply need to be there at that moment.

**grendel083**

col_impact wrote:
A deep strike happens at a moment in the game. All the requirements simply need to be there at that moment.

And that moment never comes. As first it must be arriving from Deep Strike, before this partiular model gains Deep Strike. It gains it too late, even by your theory.

"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."

Quick breakdown:
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve" - This must be true.
"it always counts as being in Swooping mode." - Before this can apply.

Note: "always", not "has always"

Your theory requires the second to be applied, in order to make the first true. But it will never be applied, because the first isn't true.

**col_impact**

grendel083 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
A deep strike happens at a moment in the game. All the requirements simply need to be there at that moment.
And that moment never comes. As first it must be arriving from Deep Strike, before this partiular model gains Deep Strike. It gains it too late, even by your theory.

"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."

Quick breakdown:
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve" - This must be true.
"it always counts as being in Swooping mode." - Before this can apply.

Note: "always", not "has always"

Your theory requires the second to be applied, in order to make the first true. But it will never be applied, because the first isn't true.

What is the exact BRB definition of Deep Strike Reserve? What exactly is it? Be exact.

**grendel083**

col_impact wrote:
What is the exact BRB definition of Deep Strike Reserve? What exactly is it? Be exact.

Part of the Deep Strike rule, requires 3 parts:
1). Every model in the unit must have the Deep Strike rule
2). the unit (referenced previously in step 1) must be placed in Reserve,
3). You must Inform your opponent that the unit (referenced in step 1) in Reserve will be arring via Deep Strike.

Once all three are complete, the unit is considered to be in Deep Strike Reserve.

Since you requested I be exact I must include the following:
Step one is included as it is a requirement to be able to Deep Strike, no part of the rule can be completed with out this step.
Step 1 and Step 2 are required before step 3 can be complete.
The three parts of Deep Strike Reserve are part of the Deep Strike rule. If the unit does not have the Deep Strike special rule listed, it doesn't have it (see "What Special Rules Do I Have?" In the BRB), if it doesn't have it, it can't use it.

In a nutshell: if the unit has the Deep Strike USR and is in reserve, you can announce it is Deep Striking.

**col_impact**

You must Inform your opponent that the unit in Reserve will be arriving via Deep Strike.

This is the part that is Deep Strike Reserve. Everything else you are adding.

**Fragile**

JinxDragon wrote:
I disagree with your assumption on the Timing, Col_impact;

One of the issues I have with the Deep Strike Special Rule is the fact it contains multiple Timings: Start of Turn, Placed into Reserves, Arriving itself.... It is a Rule that is all over the place, so it is not possible to really know if any particular moment is the 'official moment this Rule is evoked.' That does not mean we have permission to simply choose one of these Timings and announce that is when we are evoking the Rule, for many reasons but the most binding being that the Rulebook simply does not grant us permission to make those sort of choices.

It is far more likely that the Deep Strike Special Rule 'officially triggers' during Deployment itself, for this is when we first encounter instructions within the Rule telling us to do something....

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frigile,
Having access to an additional method of movement does not remove the original method.
It is the requirement to select either Gliding or Swooping that makes it impossible to select 'walking,' and that declaration occurs after Reserves.

It is not access to another method. FMCs move 1 of 2 ways. Clearly stated in their rule. Both methods are described as moving like Jump, which is all the Jump rules require for DS.

**OIIIIIIO**

In order to b placed in DSR you must have the DS USR.
The FMC does not get to choose if it is swooping or Gliding until it is on the table.
It is at this point that it is counted as JMC.
Prior to being on the table it is not considered a JMC and therefore does not have the DS USR and therefore cannot choose to use the DSR.

Not sure how many times it has been explained in various different ways ... but this is the easiest way it can be explained,

**Frozocrone**

I agree with grendel083 based on the arguments presented.

If FMC's get Deep Strike as a standard rule, why is it that a 'Lord of Change' Codex Entry (Codex: Daemons, pg 92) specifically states that it has the Deep Strike special rule but a 'Hive Crone' Codex Entry (Codex: Tyranids pg 101) does not, even though both Codex entries are classified as unit type "FMC' as default?

Can those that support the notion that all FMC's have Deep Strike answer this?

**OIIIIIIO**

Frozocrone wrote:
I agree with grendel083 based on the arguments presented.

If FMC's get Deep Strike as a standard rule, why is it that a 'Lord of Change' Codex Entry (Codex: Daemons, pg 92) specifically states that it has the Deep Strike special rule but a 'Hive Crone' Codex Entry (Codex: Tyranids pg 101) does not, even though both Codex entries are classified as unit type "FMC' as default?

Can those that support the notion that all FMC's have Deep Strike answer this?

ooh ooh ... me first .....

ALL Deamons have the DS USR.

**Fragile**

OIIIIIIO wrote:
In order to b placed in DSR you must have the DS USR.
The FMC does not get to choose if it is swooping or Gliding until it is on the table.
It is at this point that it is counted as JMC.
Prior to being on the table it is not considered a JMC and therefore does not have the DS USR and therefore cannot choose to use the DSR.

Not sure how many times it has been explained in various different ways ... but this is the easiest way it can be explained,

It does not need to be either swooping or gliding. It is described as moving like a Jump unit in both forms of movement it can take. Therefore it gains the rules for Jump unit which include DS.

**coredump**

You guys are arguing this backwards.

The rules give permission for FMC to be swooping
The rules give permission for FMC to be Gliding.

The rules *never* give permission to be anything else. At *all times* a FMC has to be either Swooping or Gliding.

Grendel and SaJeel have created this 'third mode' (Neutral...??) that has *no* rules support. Please cite a rule that allows for a third option besides the two listed?

If you cannot, then it does not exist...... If you do not have permission for a third mode, that mode does not exist...

**OIIIIIIO**

RAW pg. 68:

FMC Can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding

Key word here is: MOVE

PG. 68 Also gives the special rules that FMC have ... Jink and Vector Strike SR. No Mention of Deep Strike on this page.

A FMC is not able to choose a flight mode until it is on the table, therefore it is not eligible to be considered a JMC until it declares how it is flying. That does not happen until the movement phase ... well after Deployment phase is over.