Flying Monstrous Creatures and Deep Strike

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**luke1705**

Ok so I am aware that a number of flying monstrous creatures have the deep strike special rule. It is also true that a number of units gain the ability to become jump units by purchasing a wings or a jump pack upgrade of some kind, also giving them explicit permission to deep strike by the virtue of their unit type and the special rules associated with the jump unit type in the BRB.

My question is this: If a creature who does not have the deep strike special rule purchases an upgrade that allows him to "move exactly like a jump monstrous creature", does this confer the deployment benefits of a jump unit? Does moving "exactly like" a jump unit mean that you can use the alternative deployment methods of a jump unit? This is the case for pretty much any flying monstrous creature who does not have the deep strike special rule granted to them in their codex explicitly somehow (I'm looking at you, Hive Tyrant)

**Fragile**

Effectively, yes.

**Quanar**

I would disagree with Fragile. I'm probably wrong as you could point out that Deep Strike is done in the movement phase and the unit counts as having moved, but it seems like wierd wording, why write "moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature" instead of "changes unit type to Jump Monstrous Creature"?

I understand you're being vague to avoid bias, but what unit and upgrade are we actually talking about?

**eskimo**

Not with a book, but a Beast moves like Jump creature, they both move 12".

I play as FMC have all the jump rules. Someone questions it, we'll roll off. If they question a roll off, they probably aren't worth playing again.

[edit]

Okay just picked up book, and again i'm fully inclined to say yes. It doesn't say units "when moving like a jump creatures gain rules associated with moving/ deploying etc blah blah". What it does say, "units described as 'moving like' jump units follow all of the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules". Doesn't specify when or where. But whatever.

Bias or no bias, i don't think i've ever DS a FMC.

**Quanar**

eskimo wrote:
Okay just picked up book, and again i'm fully inclined to say yes. It doesn't say units "when moving like a jump creatures gain rules associated with moving/ deploying etc blah blah". What it does say, "units described as 'moving like' jump units follow all of the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules". Doesn't specify when or where. But whatever..

Yep, just found that part of the Jump rules (I'd been looking mostly at the FMC rules), so I retract my previous post. Cheers.

I'm still interested in what the actual unit in question is though.

**morgoth**

It depends.

If for example it's something like " while swooping, ...", it doesn't work from reserves because you just don't swoop in reserves.

You should copy paste the full rules of that piece of wargear here so that we can confirm that it does work.

Like for example...

GLIDING

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

It does not get the Jump type, therefore it doesn't get USR

S.

A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

As soon as it enters play. I.E. you don't get to be swooping or gliding prior to deployment.

**eskimo**

Quanar wrote:
eskimo wrote:
Okay just picked up book, and again i'm fully inclined to say yes. It doesn't say units "when moving like a jump creatures gain rules associated with moving/ deploying etc blah blah". What it does say, "units described as 'moving like' jump units follow all of the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules". Doesn't specify when or where. But whatever..
Yep, just found that part of the Jump rules (I'd been looking mostly at the FMC rules), so I retract my previous post. Cheers.

I'm still interested in what the actual unit in question is though.

Hive Tyrant with Wings as his first post

**morgoth**

eskimo wrote:

Hive Tyrant with Wings as his first post

How could I miss that...

Wings

The forelimbs of some Tyranid organisms are in fact leathery wings.

If a Monstrous Creature has this biomorph, its unit type is Flying Monstrous Creature.

It becomes an FMC, which cannot Deep Strike because it does not receive the Jump unit type for being an FMC.
It just gets to move like a Jump Unit when gliding, which only happens as it enters play, i.e. much too late for a Deep Strike, as you need to put the unit in DS reserve at the end of your deployment to arrive by Deep Strike.

**Fragile**

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Jump units have the Bulky and Deep Strike special rules

The Hive Tyrant can DS.

**Quanar**

eskimo wrote:
Hive Tyrant with Wings as his first post

I was expecting there to be an instance of some sort of wargear that allowed "moving exactly like a jump monstrous creature" without actually changing the unit type. Otherwise, why the meandering about upgrades in the initial post.

I'll just write that off as me looking for too deep a meaning in the opening post.

**morgoth**

Fragile wrote:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Jump units have the Bulky and Deep Strike special rules

The Hive Tyrant can DS.

The Hive Tyrant is unable to Deep Strike because he cannot be Gliding OR Swooping in reserves.

He is only treated as a Jump Creature when Gliding or Swooping, which only happens when he is deployed.

Then he has the Deep Strike rule and can't do anything with it.

**grendel083**

They move like Jump units, they don't gain the Special Rules of Jump units. They don't suddenly gain "bulky"

Also They only move as Jump Units when Swooping or Gliding.
They can select one of these Flight modes at set times: Deployment, or start of it's move.
Note that there is nothing that allows a selection of Flight mode BEFORE Deployment, which is when it would be needed (if "Moveing Like" also granted the Special Rules).

A weak case could have been made for it granting Deep Strike last edition, but not in this one.

**SaJeel**

guys guys, this is really simple just give the page that says that "Units descrived as 'moving like' Jump units follow all the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules" I have found no such paragraph, and thereforei see nothing that says that they have the deepstrike specail rule

**morgoth**

@SaJeel ... don't interfere in rules debate if you can't bother reading the books.

JUMP UNITS

Jump units are equipped with jump packs, wings, teleport devices or other means of moving quickly over short distances. Unlike most other unit type categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.

Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase – they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn. If not using its jump pack, a model moves as a normal model of its type. Indeed, a Jump unit can always choose to move as a normal model of their type if they wish. Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement. Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

**grendel083**

morgoth wrote:
@SaJeel ... don't interfere in rules debate if you can't bother reading the books.

I think you should re-read what he ACTUALY wrote before you insult someone.

In the last edition there was in fact a rule stating that units described as moving like Jump Units followed their rules. This rule is no longer present in 7th Ed, so he's saying if you want to claim that, you should quote the rule (and hence learn it doesn't exist anymore).

**JinxDragon**

Grendel083,

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
- Jump Units

**grendel083**

JinxDragon wrote:
Grendel083,

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
- Jump Units

Ah, that sentence is still there. Wonder why the search didn't find it. Strange.

Back to the same old lengthly debate as last edition then. If they have neither Swooping or Gliding slected, are they described as moving like Jump Units?

**Fragile**

morgoth wrote:
Fragile wrote:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions:

Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Jump units have the Bulky and Deep Strike special rules

The Hive Tyrant can DS.

The Hive Tyrant is unable to Deep Strike because he cannot be Gliding OR Swooping in reserves.

He is only treated as a Jump Creature when Gliding or Swooping, which only happens when he is deployed.

Then he has the Deep Strike rule and can't do anything with it.

Swooping or gliding is irrelevant. He is described as "moving like a Jump" creature in every mode he can move in. That is all that is required.

**grendel083**

Fragile wrote:
Swooping or gliding is irrelevant. He is described as "moving like a Jump" creature in every mode he can move in. That is all that is required.

Except when in reserve. The model is in neither mode, so is NOT described as moving like a jump unit.

**Eihnlazer**

While grendel is RAW correct, its really just a douche move to play it as such.

Deep strike your tyrant all you want, Personally i'd rather you did, means i dont have to worry about him for 1-3 turns.

**Fragile**

grendel083 wrote:
Fragile wrote:
Swooping or gliding is irrelevant. He is described as "moving like a Jump" creature in every mode he can move in. That is all that is required.
Except when in reserve. The model is in neither mode, so is NOT described as moving like a jump unit.

That is irrelevant. The rule states that if the creature is described as moving like a Jump creature, then it gains the rules. There is no form of FMC that does not describe it as moving like a Jump creature. Therefore there is zero basis to claim that it cannot DS.

**col_impact**

Fragile wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
Fragile wrote:
Swooping or gliding is irrelevant. He is described as "moving like a Jump" creature in every mode he can move in. That is all that is required.
Except when in reserve. The model is in neither mode, so is NOT described as moving like a jump unit.

That is irrelevant. The rule states that if the creature is described as moving like a Jump creature, then it gains the rules. There is no form of FMC that does not describe it as moving like a Jump creature. Therefore there is zero basis to claim that it cannot DS.

Grendel, read the rule as it is presented.

**grendel083**

Fragile wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
Fragile wrote:
Swooping or gliding is irrelevant. He is described as "moving like a Jump" creature in every mode he can move in. That is all that is required.
Except when in reserve. The model is in neither mode, so is NOT described as moving like a jump unit.

That is irrelevant. The rule states that if the creature is described as moving like a Jump creature, then it gains the rules. There is no form of FMC that does not describe it as moving like a Jump creature. Therefore there is zero basis to claim that it cannot DS.

When it's in reserve, is it described as moving like a jump unit? No it isn't.

It doesn't say "if described as moving like a jump unit maybe sometime in the future".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Grendel, read the rule as it is presented.

I have. When in reserve it is NOT described as moving as a jump unit.

**Fragile**

grendel083 wrote:
When it's in reserve, is it described as moving like a jump unit? No it isn't.

It doesn't say "if described as moving like a jump unit maybe sometime in the future"..

It is never NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.

**grendel083**

Fragile wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
When it's in reserve, is it described as moving like a jump unit? No it isn't.

It doesn't say "if described as moving like a jump unit maybe sometime in the future"..

It is never NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.

The only times its described as such is when Swooping or Gliding. No other time.
You may only choose one of these when it deploys, or start of its move. In Reserve is not one of these times.

So when in Reserve, it is NOT Swooping and it is NOT Gliding. There is in fact a default move type, Which the last edition didn't have. You'll notice at the start of the rules, we are told they are Monstrous Creatures with extra rules. How does a Monstrous Creature move?

**Fragile**

grendel083 wrote:
Fragile wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
When it's in reserve, is it described as moving like a jump unit? No it isn't.

It doesn't say "if described as moving like a jump unit maybe sometime in the future"..

It is never NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.
The only times its described as such is when Swooping or Gliding. No other time.
You may only choose one of these when it deploys, or start of its move. In Reserve is not one of these times.

So when in Reserve, it is NOT Swooping and it is NOT Gliding. There is in fact a default move type, Which the last edition didn't have. You'll notice at the start of the rules, we are told they are Monstrous Creatures with extra rules. How does a Monstrous Creature move?

Since a FMC cannot move as a MC that is pretty irrelevant. You have a choice of only 2 ways to move. Both of which are Jump.

**grendel083**

Fragile wrote:
Since a FMC cannot move as a MC that is pretty irrelevant. You have a choice of only 2 ways to move. Both of which are Jump.

And the model is neither of those two when in Reserve.

When in reserve, it is NOT described as moving like a Jump unit.

**Fragile**

FMCs are always described as moving like Jump units and therefore gain the rules of Jump units. Reserve does not matter.

**grendel083**

Fragile wrote:
FMCs are always described as moving like Jump units and therefore gain the rules of Jump units. Reserve does not matter.

No they're not.
They're only described as moving like jump units then Swooping or Gliding. When neither of these are selected they use the default movement for Monstrous Creatures.

In Reserve they may not select Swooping or Gliding. The are not described as moving as Jump Units.

It is possible for a game to end with a FMC having never selected a flight mode, and having never been described as moving as Jump Infantry.
Again the rule isn't "described as moving as jump infantry maybe sometime in the future".

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You want to invoke a rule that only applies to models that are described as moving like Jump units when they are NOT described as moving like Jump Units just because they MIGHT be described as moving like that later in the game, maybe.

**Fragile**

They do not have to pick a mode to qualify.

Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.

They are limited to choices of movement, both of which are Jump.

Again the rule isn't "described as moving as jump infantry maybe sometime in the future"

No the rule is "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units,"

Both possible modes of movement for the FMC are described as this. Nothing more needs to be proven. Your claim about a future event is again irrelevant. The rule describes them as Jump, therefore they gain the benefit of Jump.

Your argument would hold weight if one mode was NOT jump and the other was. Then you have a sound argument.