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col_impact wrote:
You are reading in "choice". You are not permitted to add stuff to the rules. "Choice" is something you are adding. Declare does not mean "choose." Declare means that you are making it known or revealing. So the player reveals whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode as it enters play. This means that before it was revealed it was in Swooping or Gliding mode.

That's an assumption that has no basis in rules. You need to prove that the model was in a flight mode prior to it being declared. Rules quote for this please.

If you can't prove that, prove that Swooping or Gliding can be declared while in Reserve. Again, rules quote please

If you can prove that Gliding is the default form of Movement when Swooping hasn't been declared (or visa versa), you might have a case. But no rule says this.

Starting on the board, it's Gliding. No choice, no declaring. Simply is.
Same with arriving from Deep Strike. Swooping. No choice, no declaring.
Arriving from reserve, you declare which mode it is in. How do you declare which mode (out of two) if there is no choice?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
There is no timing issue. Just take full note of the use of the word declare and the state of the FMC prior to declaration logically follows. The player does not choose as it enters play. The player reveals.

Reveals what? One of the two modes it's in?
You can only declare one, and the rules don't tell you which.
So which one is it?

Could it be that you need to make a.......... choice?

Simple question col_impact: A FMC enters the table from Reserve. What flight mode do you declare and why?

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You are reading in "choice". You are not permitted to add stuff to the rules. "Choice" is something you are adding. Declare does not mean "choose." Declare means that you are making it known or revealing. So the player reveals whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode as it enters play. This means that before it was revealed it was in Swooping or Gliding mode.

That's an assumption that has no basis in rules. You need to prove that the model was in a flight mode prior to it being declared. Rules quote for this please.

If you can't prove that, prove that Swooping or Gliding can be declared while in Reserve. Again, rules quote please

If you can prove that Gliding is the default form of Movement when Swooping hasn't been declared (or visa versa), you might have a case. But no rule says this.

Starting on the board, it's Gliding. No choice, no declaring. Simply is.
Same with arriving from Deep Strike. Swooping. No choice, no declaring.
Arriving from reserve, you declare which mode it is in. How do you declare which mode (out of two) if there is no choice?

I suggest you stick to using declare in your description of what is going on. By using declare when describing what happens as the FMC enters play, it can be conclusively stated that the FMC is in gliding or swooping mode before it enters play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:


Could it be that you need to make a.......... choice?

Simple question col_impact: A FMC enters the table from Reserve. What flight mode do you declare and why?

An FMC enters the table from Reserve. It is in either gliding or swooping mode. As it enters play, I need to reveal what mode it is in.

col_impact wrote:
it can be conclusively stated that the FMC is in gliding or swooping mode before it enters play.

Only if you make many assumptions that have no basis in the rules. Lets cover some, starting with the question asked earlier:

col_impact wrote:
An FMC enters the table from Reserve. It is in either gliding or swooping mode. As it enters play, I need to reveal what mode it is in.

You've repeated the question, not answered it.

What mode is it in and why?

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
An FMC enters the table from Reserve. It is in either gliding or swooping mode. As it enters play, I need to reveal what mode it is in.

You've repeated the question, not answered it.

What mode is it in and why?

We know for sure that it is in either Gliding or Swooping mode (per the use of declare).

The use of declare in the rules as written directly supports my argument and contradicts yours.

col_impact wrote:
We know for sure that it is in either Gliding or Swooping mode (per the use of declare).

Well you can't declare both.

Could it be that you need to choose between the two?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I was so sure of the answer when I opened the thread, but after reading I can see where the issues arise. I can see two main points of contention.

1) This is the most obvious issue: does 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature' allow you to use the special rules of jump units.

2) If the game does allow FMCs to use the jump rules: An FMC that enters play via deepstrike it always enters play in the swooping flight mode. Only a gliding FMC 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.'

Read the first sentence of Swooping

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump MonstrousCreature

Ok this is the first sentence, what is your point? It says moves like. It does not say it 'is' a jump monstrous creature. My first point is still valid.

Bill, you obviously have not read any of this thread. You should read the rules for Jump units for your answer to #1 and your second point is proven false.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
We know for sure that it is in either Gliding or Swooping mode (per the use of declare).

Well you can't declare both.

Could it be that you need to choose between the two?

A choice is not made at that time. I do not read anything in to the rules.

Per the rules I am revealing whether the FMC is gliding or swooping.

 grendel083 wrote:
[The third option is simply the default movement for any Monstrous Creatures, since FMC's are MC's with extra rules.

This has been proven false repeatedly.

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
[The third option is simply the default movement for any Monstrous Creatures, since FMC's are MC's with extra rules.

This has been proven false repeatedly.

Not even once, it has not been proven, just saying it has doesn't make it so. Please quote a rule if you believe otherwise.
The FMC rule clearly states it's a MC with extra rules.

col_impact wrote:
A choice is not made at that time. I do not read anything in to the rules.

Per the rules I am revealing whether the FMC is gliding or swooping.

What time is the choice made then? Rules quote please.
Because at some point, a choice must be made in order for you to declare it.

 grendel083 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
[The third option is simply the default movement for any Monstrous Creatures, since FMC's are MC's with extra rules.

This has been proven false repeatedly.

Not even once. Please quote a rule if you believe otherwise.
The FMC rule clearly states it's a MC with extra rules.

col_impact wrote:
A choice is not made at that time. I do not read anything in to the rules.

Per the rules I am revealing whether the FMC is gliding or swooping.

What time is the choice made then? Rules quote please.
Because at some point, a choice must be made in order for you to declare it.

There is no choice being made. Where are you seeing that in the rules?

The rules use DECLARE.


This means per the rules the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is revealing which one as soon as it enters play.

 grendel083 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
[The third option is simply the default movement for any Monstrous Creatures, since FMC's are MC's with extra rules.

This has been proven false repeatedly.

Not even once, it has not been proven, just saying it has doesn't make it so. Please quote a rule if you believe otherwise.
The FMC rule clearly states it's a MC with extra rules..

Yet again

Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding

Show me where it says that you can use a default MC movement. You have two choices listed above. This is further confirmed by..

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

Again, no default MC movement allowed there. Your claim is again disproven.

col_impact wrote:
This means per the rules the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is revealing which one as soon as it enters play.

This is pure assumption. You're creating a retroactive state for the model.

It must be in a flight mode when it goes into reserve in order to use Deep Strike. No rule allows this.

It's an assuption that the model is always in a flight mode even though any time before, or in fact during, a declaration, it could enter this state.

No rule allows a declaration of mode during this time. Your assumption is that it MUST be in one at this time. A state that you cannot prove with any rule.

A unit for example is not charging before a charge is declared. Your assumption is that it must be, that once declared the unit suddenly was charging before it was delcared.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding

Show me where it says that you can use a default MC movement. You have two choices listed above. This is further confirmed by..

Two modes, show me a rule that proves either are used while it is in Reserve. The triggers for these rules are layed out, Reserve isn't one of them

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

Again, no default MC movement allowed there. Your claim is again disproven.

"At the start of it's move" - your own quote. You're using a rule that's invoked when a model is on the table, and trying to use it when in reserve. No rule lets you do this.

Prove it's Swooping or Zooming while in Reserve. Because until it is in one of those two flight modes, it is NOT described as moving like a Jump Unit.

Once again, you're invoking a rule the model is NOT qualified to use, just because it MIGHT become qualified for it later.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The pub beckons Gentlemen. Sadly I must leave you for a time. If you wish to take the time to find a rules quote that states a FMC is either Swooping or Gliding while in Reserve (an actual quote, not an assumption), then that would be grand

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
This means per the rules the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is revealing which one as soon as it enters play.

This is pure assumption. You're creating a retroactive state for the model.

It must be in a flight mode when it goes into reserve in order to use Deep Strike. No rule allows this.

It's an assuption that the model is always in a flight mode even though any time before, or in fact during, a declaration, it could enter this state.

No rule allows a declaration of mode during this time. Your assumption is that it MUST be in one at this time. A state that you cannot prove with any rule.

A unit for example is not charging before a charge is declared. Your assumption is that it must be, that once declared the unit suddenly was charging before it was delcared.

I think you need to look up the definition of declare and proceed from there. The use of declare proves what I am saying and disproves your argument.

grendel, using simplified terms, please describe how a Flying Monstrous Creature moves.

So grendel please correct me if im misunderstanding you,
You are arguing that the FMC does not have the deepstrike rule(at deployment) because of the following:
Prior to entering play the FMC moves like a MC,
upon entering play it can choose its flight mode, and at that point it gains the effects of glidin/'moving like Jump unit" and then at that point it gains the deepstrike rule. But because while in reserves it is neither swooping nor gliding it doesn't gain the benefit from them and therefore cannot deepstrike
is that correct?

No, but as you already noted, it IS in one of those modes already - it has to be, as you never choose to go into, you are either S or G at all times. Meaning you have the option to DS, as either mode allows for this

Its a superposition of the two modes that you resolve on deployment

col_impact wrote:
I think you need to look up the definition of declare and proceed from there. The use of declare proves what I am saying and disproves your argument.

The assumption you're making, is that something must exist prior to it being declared. This is something the rules do not (in fact cannot) follow.

For example, you are not charging, before you declare it. Your assumption is that they were always charging (that they were charging before the game began, even while in reserve!).

 Happyjew wrote:
grendel, using simplified terms, please describe how a Flying Monstrous Creature moves.

When?

SaJeel wrote:
So grendel please correct me if im misunderstanding you,
You are arguing that the FMC does not have the deepstrike rule(at deployment) because of the following:
Prior to entering play the FMC moves like a MC,
upon entering play it can choose its flight mode, and at that point it gains the effects of glidin/'moving like Jump unit" and then at that point it gains the deepstrike rule. But because while in reserves it is neither swooping nor gliding it doesn't gain the benefit from them and therefore cannot deepstrike
is that correct?

In a nutshell, in order to gain Deepstrike the unit needs to be "described as moving like a Jump Unit". Swooping and Gliding do this.
However, when in reserve, it is unable to declare one of these modes. So it isn't Swooping, and it isn't gliding. So how can you use a rule it's not allowed to use? How can you claim to be described as moving like a jump unit, when at that point you're not allowed to use the rules that describe it as moving like a jump unit?

As said before, you're trying to invoke a rule that the model doesn't qualify to use, purely because at some point later in the game it might be able to use it.

Anyway, the pub calls. Later


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, but as you already noted, it IS in one of those modes already - it has to be, as you never choose to go into, you are either S or G at all times. Meaning you have the option to DS, as either mode allows for this

Its a superposition of the two modes that you resolve on deployment

That still follows the assumption that it must ALWAYS be in one of the two modes (I'd ask for a rules quote, but we both know there isn't one) and that it exists in a mode prior to it being declared (again, no rule says this). Until a rule says its in a flight mode, what proof is there it was in one before? And it is still a MC, and follows those rules as well.

Personal opinion and HIWPI:
In my personal opinion, Grendel is correct that due to the timing of the situation the model would not be able to gain the deep strike special rule. However, considering the fact that if the model flew off the table and was put into Ongoing reserves it COULD in fact deep strike back onto the table due to not being able to change flight modes. No longer flying would be changing flight modes, so it MUST still be swooping. Because of this, I would house rule it so that FMCs could Deep Strike at the beginning of the game as well, even though by a timing technicality they should not be able to.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I think you need to look up the definition of declare and proceed from there. The use of declare proves what I am saying and disproves your argument.

The assumption you're making, is that something must exist prior to it being declared. This is something the rules do not (in fact cannot) follow.

For example, you are not charging, before you declare it. Your assumption is that they were always charging (that they were charging before the game began, even while in reserve!).

I am not making any assumptions. I am using 'declare' correctly. Feel free to look up 'declare' in the dictionary and show how I am incorrectly using the word, instead of trying a straw man argument.

The rules use 'declare' and not 'choose to go into'. My argument is proved and yours is disproved

col_impact wrote:
My argument is proved and yours is disproved

Prove it's in a Flight Mode prior to it being declared.
You've proved nothing so far, only posted this assumption.
Actual rules quote please.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
My argument is proved and yours is disproved

Prove it's in a Flight Mode prior to it being declared.
You've proved nothing so far, only posted this assumption.
Actual rules quote please.

This literally means the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is REVEALING which one as soon as it enters play.

I should clarify why I believe Grendel is correct in this.

In the movement phase you may choose either swooping or gliding. Grendel posits that prior to that decision you are doing neither and so do not gain the special rules associated with those actions. The others posit that it does not matter, because since those are the only two options, whichever you assume it is doing it gains the special rule, and should therefore already have it since it does not have options to do anything BUT those two.

Similarily, In the shooting phase you may run or shoot. Prior to that decision which are you doing? Grendel's side of the argument holds up here while the others do not.

This is why I consider my decision to grant deep strike to FMCs at the beginning of the game a House Rule and not RAW.

col_impact wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
My argument is proved and yours is disproved

Prove it's in a Flight Mode prior to it being declared.
You've proved nothing so far, only posted this assumption.
Actual rules quote please.

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.

This literally means the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is REVEALING which one as soon as it enters play.

Again, assumption and interpretation. It could be declared on turn 4. Prove it was in a flight mode all the time it was in reserve, and before the game when entering it. Proof please.
Prove something exists prior to it being declared, with rules. Your above quote fails to do this.

As Bojazz above has correctly observed, you are not charging before it is declared.
Prove you're in a Flight Mode before it is declared.

col_impact wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
My argument is proved and yours is disproved

Prove it's in a Flight Mode prior to it being declared.
You've proved nothing so far, only posted this assumption.
Actual rules quote please.

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.

This literally means the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is REVEALING which one as soon as it enters play.

So you choose which mode the FMC is in prior to deploying it? Are we supposed to write that down somewhere before revealing it?

I declare this island belongs to me. Was the island always belonging to me? Why must the word 'declare' mean that the FMC was always in one of those two flight modes?

What about if you choose NOT to move a FMC during it's turn?

A FMC declares it's flight mode at the beginning of it's MOVE. Not it's movement phase. The Swooping/Gliding rules only last until the beginning of the FMC's next turn. Therefore if you choose not to move a FMC, you are neither Gliding OR Swooping until you declare it as doing so when you move it.

This proves that a FMC can be neither Gliding or Swooping at a point in the game. So why not in reserves?

col_impact, you also keep using "Reveal" as your chosen replacement for the word "Declare".

A quick look at definitions, this only one of many uses of the word.

Another meaning is : "formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition)."

Which since we are discussing a mode, or state, fits better.

Or

"pronounce or assert (a person or thing) to be something specified."

Even "express feelings of love for someone" is a valid use of the word.

So I declare (formally announce the beginning of) a flight mode, when entering from reserve. Job done.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
My argument is proved and yours is disproved

Prove it's in a Flight Mode prior to it being declared.
You've proved nothing so far, only posted this assumption.
Actual rules quote please.

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.

This literally means the FMC is in either Swooping or Gliding mode prior to entering play and the player is REVEALING which one as soon as it enters play.

Again, assumption and interpretation. It could be declared on turn 4. Prove it was in a flight mode all the time it was in reserve, and before the game when entering it. Proof please.
Prove something exists prior to it being declared, with rules. Your above quote fails to do this.

As Bojazz above has correctly observed, you are not charging before it is declared.
Prove you're in a Flight Mode before it is declared.

The burden of proof is on you at this point since you go directly against the definition of declare.

You need to prove that the rules say that you are choosing to go into Swooping or Gliding mode from some nonGliding, nonSwooping state. Declare means you are REVEALING whether you are in Swooping or Gliding mode and that no change of state is presently occuring.

col_impact wrote:
The burden of proof is on you at this point since you go directly against the definition of declare.

You need to prove that the rules say that you are choosing to go into Swooping or Gliding mode from some nonGliding, nonSwooping state. Declare means you are REVEALING whether you are in Swooping or Gliding mode and that no change of state is presently occuring.

The definition of Declare is: formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).

Now prove that the model is in a Flight Mode prior to declaring it.

I declare the previous post to be ninjad.

EDIT: I'm adding nothing at this point... but the word 'declare' does not mean the flight mode was previously decided.

col_impact wrote:

You need to prove that the rules say that you are choosing to go into Swooping or Gliding mode from some nonGliding, nonSwooping state.

I did that. See my previous post.