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In order to charge you must "move" the initial charger. Charging is moving.

I don't claim there is a third movement mode. I claim there is a third state of being that is neither swooping nor gliding, which occurs when the FMC has not moved yet. It is not interpretation.

I am not claiming that you can "Not Move a Swooping FMC", but you CAN "not move a Gliding FMC". You can also "not move a FMC that is neither Swooping nor Gliding."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a heads up, I've got to head out for a few hours so I'll pick this up when I get back if there is further discussion to be had. happy wargaming till then!

Bojazz wrote:
In order to charge you must "move" the initial charger. Charging is moving.

I don't claim there is a third movement mode. I claim there is a third state of being that is neither swooping nor gliding, which occurs when the FMC has not moved yet. It is not interpretation.

I am not claiming that you can "Not Move a Swooping FMC", but you CAN "not move a Gliding FMC". You can also "not move a FMC that is neither Swooping nor Gliding."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a heads up, I've got to head out for a few hours so I'll pick this up when I get back if there is further discussion to be had. happy wargaming till then!

Your interpretation collapses under its own weight.

So can I choose to Swoop and then stop dead in my tracks or not in this special MC mode that is not mentioned in the rules? How come I can switch to that special mode from Gliding mode (by not moving) but not Swooping mode, as you claim above?

And if we accept your interpretation then this rule never gets triggered.



However, that rule does get triggered when you change from Swooping to Gliding because you do not go from Swooping to 3rd nonFlight mode at Start of Next Turn to Gliding.

lucky i caught this before I headed out.

my FMC has no mode associated to it. I start the move and I declare Swooping - cool, I MUST move a minimum distance.

alternate scenario
My FMC has no mode associated to it. I start the move and declare gliding - cool I can move or not move however much I want.

alternate alternate scenario
my FMC has no mode associated to it. I do not start the move and so do not declare a movement mode. I have no requirement to move.

Flying modes are only in effect until the start of your next turn.


Chronlogically:
start of turn - movement mode ends
start of movement phase - your FMC has no flight mode associated with it here.
movement phase - if you move, you must declare a new flight mode


What flight mode is your FMC in during your movement phase before you have moved it? You have rules saying that the previous flight modes have ended by that time, and you have not yet declared a new movement method. So what flight mode is it in? The answer is Neither.

Bojazz wrote:


Flying modes are only in effect until the start of your next turn.

So this rule makes no sense then

RAW, yes. you are correct. That rule would disallow a FMC from EVER charging. This is why I claim the FMC rules are broken.

Bojazz wrote:
RAW, yes. you are correct. That rule would disallow a FMC from EVER charging. This is why I claim the FMC rules are broken.

An alternate interpretation here is that you have inserted a unicorn into the rules.

If you wish to interpret that, then that is fine. However it is not RAW. Strictly RAW, your movement mode is reset to "none" at the beginning of EACH of your turns, so selecting any flight mode is a change.

Bojazz wrote:
If you wish to interpret that, then that is fine. However it is not RAW. Strictly RAW, your movement mode is reset to "none" at the beginning of EACH of your turns, so selecting any flight mode is a change.

An alternate interpretation is that the FMC is set to either Gliding or Swooping at all times and you must declare (reveal) what that is at certain times.

So we going to play that FMC can deep strike or that FMC cannot charge?

That would not be an interpretation, that would be a house rule. and as I have stated previously several times, I currently house rule it that a FMC can deep strike.

Bojazz wrote:
That would not be an interpretation, that would be a house rule. and as I have stated previously several times, I currently house rule it that a FMC can deep strike.

Its a RAW interpretation that runs directly off dictionary supported meaning of declare.

Of course we can follow your definition of declare and come up with an FMC that cannot assault.

My RAW interpretation works through and through. Yours causes profound breaks elsewhere.

Bojazz wrote:
RAW, yes. you are correct. That rule would disallow a FMC from EVER charging. This is why I claim the FMC rules are broken.

And this makes it very clear that your interpretation is incorrect all of these aspects.

It's a chicken egg circular debate. Either you believe they can't as they don't have access to the rule until you choose a flight mode, or you believe they can as a FMC always moves like jump irrelevant of the mode and therefore do have access, both are logical.

This will only be clarified IMO either way through FAQ

 Nem wrote:
It's a chicken egg circular debate. Either you believe they can't as they don't have access to the rule until you choose a flight mode, or you believe they can as a FMC always moves like jump irrelevant of the mode and therefore do have access, both are logical.

This will only be clarified IMO either way through FAQ

Unless you take the dictionary definition of declare as I am using it. Then the RAW holds up all the way through with no profound breakages.

col_impact wrote:

 Nem wrote:
It's a chicken egg circular debate. Either you believe they can't as they don't have access to the rule until you choose a flight mode, or you believe they can as a FMC always moves like jump irrelevant of the mode and therefore do have access, both are logical.

This will only be clarified IMO either way through FAQ

Unless you take the dictionary definition of declare as I am using it. Then the RAW holds up all the way through with no profound breakages.

No, the entire "Declare means you choose earlier" argument does not work. You would need rules along the lines of:

At the start of the game, choose your flight mode, as soon as it enters play, you must declare to your opponent (etc)

Then you would be correct: There is a timing for the choice, and a timing for the "reveal" as you so insist. But as it stands there is no RaW telling you what mode you are in until "as soon as it enters play" happens.

Now by RaW: "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike"

And, in conclusion, and what Grendel has kept arguing:

"When placing the unit in Reserve" Vs "as soon as it enters play" Which happens first?

Now you either have 2 options: Choose above which comes first, or find another RaW with timing that will happen before "When placing the unit in Reserve" and lets you know what flight mode you are in.

Until then, Schrödinger's FMC will be Gliding AND Swooping AND doing none of the 2 at the same time...

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Two modes, show me a rule that proves either are used while it is in Reserve. The triggers for these rules are layed out, Reserve isn't one of them

So you concede now that there is no third mode. Good. Now show how a FMC can move without being described as Jump.

Two Flight modes, the standard movement of any MC is not a Flight Mode. The rest has been shown many times. Now show the model is in a flight mode when in reserve.

col_impact wrote:
Unless you take the dictionary definition of declare as I am using it. Then the RAW holds up all the way through with no profound breakages.

Which definition are you using now?

The "reveal" one simply doesn't work, as there's no rules allowing the selection of one of the two flight modes before the declaration.
The idea that you "reveal" a flight mode (without choosing apparently, making the declaration impossible), and that this somehow retroactively puts it into a flight mode before the declaration, is not only impossible but also isn't supported by rules.

 grendel083 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Two modes, show me a rule that proves either are used while it is in Reserve. The triggers for these rules are layed out, Reserve isn't one of them

So you concede now that there is no third mode. Good. Now show how a FMC can move without being described as Jump.

Two Flight modes, the standard movement of any MC is not a Flight Mode. The rest has been shown many times. Now show the model is in a flight mode when in reserve.

col_impact wrote:
Unless you take the dictionary definition of declare as I am using it. Then the RAW holds up all the way through with no profound breakages.

Which definition are you using now?

The "reveal" one simply doesn't work, as there's no rules allowing the selection of one of the two flight modes before the declaration.
The idea that you "reveal" a flight mode (without choosing apparently, making the declaration impossible), and that this somehow retroactively puts it into a flight mode before the declaration, is not only impossible but also isn't supported by rules.

Which definition of 'declare' are you using now? The one that makes assault with an FMC impossible?

Also, is there any rule keeping me from putting the FMC in Deep Strike Reserve?
The act of putting it into Deep Strike Reserve, makes "it always counts as being in Swooping mode"
I put the unit in reserve and tell the opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike (putting it in Deep Strike Reserve) and with that designation Swooping mode is turned to always on

col_impact wrote:

Which definition of 'declare' are you using now? The one that makes assault with an FMC impossible?

I couldn't make any sense of that entire line of reasoning. I'd use the definition "formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).". I believe this is the definition Grendel is using too. It fits the best.

col_impact wrote:
Which definition of 'declare' are you using now?

Same definition I've always been using, the one that fits the situation most appropriately.
It doesn't involve creating impossible states, or retroactivley changing rules. No game system can support this.

The one that makes assault with an FMC impossible?

Ah, the tangent you were discussing with Bojazz. Not something I've brought up. Is that the debate where if you skip the FMC's move, it's not counted as being in either Flight Mode? Not one I support I'm afraid. Although it doesn't state it explicitly, the rules imply that once selected a FMC will stay in the same Flight Mode until changed. You quoted the rule yourself that implies this I believe.

Zimko wrote:
I couldn't make any sense of that entire line of reasoning. I'd use the definition "formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).". I believe this is the definition Grendel is using too. It fits the best.

Absolutely. A Flight Mode would certainly fit the description of a State or Condition.

The "Reveal" definition cannot work, as no rule allows for a selection before the reveal. And apparently with col_impacts theory, you can never choose, so you have to reveal one mode of two without choosing between them (which creates an impossible situation), and then apply this retroactively all the back to before the game began, for when it goes into reserve. Madness I tell you

Zimko wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Which definition of 'declare' are you using now? The one that makes assault with an FMC impossible?

I couldn't make any sense of that entire line of reasoning. I'd use the definition "formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).". I believe this is the definition Grendel is using too. It fits the best.

If you adhere strictly to that definition you will have times in the turn where no Flight mode is in place. So is that the definition you are using?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Which definition of 'declare' are you using now?

Same definition I've always been using, the one that fits the situation most appropriately.
It doesn't involve creating impossible states, or retroactivley changing rules. No game system can support this.

The one that makes assault with an FMC impossible?

Ah, the tangent you were discussing with Bojazz. Not something I've brought up. Is that the debate where if you skip the FMC's move, it's not counted as being in either Flight Mode? Not one I support I'm afraid. Although it doesn't state it explicitly, the rules imply that once selected a FMC will stay in the same Flight Mode until changed. You quoted the rule yourself that implies this I believe.

The definition of declare you are using cause there to be time in the turn where no flight mode is active.



Also, is there any rule keeping me from putting the FMC in Deep Strike Reserve?
The act of putting it into Deep Strike Reserve, makes "it always counts as being in Swooping mode"
I put the unit in reserve and tell the opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike (putting it in Deep Strike Reserve) and with that designation Swooping mode is turned to always on

col_impact wrote:
If you adhere strictly to that definition you will have times in the turn where no Flight mode is in place.

Only when in Reserve. There is no rule anywhere stating a Flight Mode must always be in place. The rules seem to have no problem with their being no Flight mode in Reserve. Claiming they must at all times is an invention not found in the rules.

Also, is there any rule keeping me from putting the FMC in Deep Strike Reserve?

Lack of the Deep Strike rule for starters.

The act of putting it into Deep Strike Reserve, makes "it always counts as being in Swooping mode"
I put the unit in reserve and tell the opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike (putting it in Deep Strike Reserve) and with that designation Swooping mode is turned to always on

It is only put into Swooping mode when arriving from Deep Strike, not before. Also there is no Declaration on that part, so your "reveal" theory doesn't apply.

Only when entering from Reserve (as in non-Deep reserve) is a Declaration made (or changing a Flight mode, but since we're talking about deployment this won't apply).

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If you adhere strictly to that definition you will have times in the turn where no Flight mode is in place.

Only when in Reserve. There is no rule anywhere stating a Flight Mode must always be in place. The rules seem to have no problem with their being no Flight mode in Reserve. Claiming they must at all times is an invention not found in the rules.

Also, is there any rule keeping me from putting the FMC in Deep Strike Reserve?

Lack of the Deep Strike rule for starters.

The act of putting it into Deep Strike Reserve, makes "it always counts as being in Swooping mode"
I put the unit in reserve and tell the opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike (putting it in Deep Strike Reserve) and with that designation Swooping mode is turned to always on

It is only put into Swooping mode when arriving from Deep Strike, not before. Also there is no Declaration on that part, so your "reveal" theory doesn't apply.

Only when entering from Reserve (as in non-Deep reserve) is a Declaration made (or changing a Flight mode, but since we're talking about deployment this won't apply).

There is no restriction on me designating it to be in Deep Strike reserves. The capability turns on with the designation.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If you adhere strictly to that definition you will have times in the turn where no Flight mode is in place.

Only when in Reserve. There is no rule anywhere stating a Flight Mode must always be in place. The rules seem to have no problem with their being no Flight mode in Reserve. Claiming they must at all times is an invention not found in the rules.

Per your definition of declare there will be a gap in the turn there where no Flight mode is in place, correct?

col_impact wrote:

BRB Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

There is no restriction on me designating it to be in Deep Strike reserves. The capability turns on with the designation.

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

When arriving from Deep Strike it enters Swooping mode, as you quote shows.

It must have deep strike before the game starts, that rules won't give it Swooping until at least turn 2 (in most cases).
It doesn't retroactively give it Swooping. No rule gives it Swooping while in Reserve.

Always counts, does not mean "Has always counted". You can't apply a rule retroactively.

And there is no Declaration when arriving from Deep Strike, so your Retroactive "Reveal" theory also cannot apply.

col_impact wrote:
Per your definition of declare there will be a gap in the turn there where no Flight mode is in place, correct?

There will always be a flight mode in place when this rule is called. This rule requires it to be on the table, that means it will have deployed, triggering one of the Flight Modes.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

BRB Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

There is no restriction on me designating it to be in Deep Strike reserves. The capability turns on with the designation.

Spoiler:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

When arriving from Deep Strike it enters Swooping mode, as you quote shows.

It must have deep strike before the game starts, that rules won't give it Swooping until at least turn 2 (in most cases).
It doesn't retroactively give it Swooping. No rule gives it Swooping while in Reserve.

Always counts, does not mean "Has always counted". You can't apply a rule retroactively.

And there is no Declaration when arriving from Deep Strike, so your Retroactive "Reveal" theory also cannot apply.

col_impact wrote:
Per your definition of declare there will be a gap in the turn there where no Flight mode is in place, correct?

There will always be a flight mode in place when this rule is called. This rule requires it to be on the table, that means it will have deployed, triggering one of the Flight Modes.

I just designate it as arriving in Deep Strike reserve then when it arrives it counts as "being in Swooping mode". It does not enter Swooping mode as you are wrongly reading.


Also, per your use of declare, every turn there will be a gap where the FMC has no mode, correct?

Also, per your use of declare, every turn there will be a gap where the FMC has no mode, correct?

You mean because it lasts until the start of the next turn, and a new one isn't chosen until the start of its move? That can create a gap no matter what definition you use. "Reveal" doesn't change that either, as there is still a set duration.
Are you then going to claim that is goes from "No Flight mode" to "A Flight Mode" and counts as a change? Rather than than consider the change to be different to the one used last turn?
If you take that meaning of change, you'll create propblems. Including if you use "Reveal" as it still only lasts until the start of the next turn.
And are you still claiming this idea that you must "reveal" without choosing? So we are still in the land of impossible situations?

col_impact wrote:
I just designate it as arriving in Deep Strike reserve then when it arrives it counts as "being in Swooping mode". It does not enter Swooping mode as you are wrongly reading.

How do you take that to mean it was always in Swooping mode all along? You're Retroactively adding a rule.

So ignoring the fact you've broken the Deep Strike rule of placing a unit in Deep Strike reserve without Deep Strike... What if it doesn't arrive from Deep Strike reserve? For example you fail 2 reserve rolls and the game ends due to you being tabled.
The FMC never arrives, so never counts as being Swooping. So you've placed a model into Deep Strike Reserve illegally, as you are unable to Retroactively add your rule.

 grendel083 wrote:
[Two Flight modes, the standard movement of any MC is not a Flight Mode. The rest has been shown many times. Now show the model is in a flight mode when in reserve.

You continue with this despite being proven wrong time and again. The "additional rules" that you quote include the movement rules which replace the MC movement. This completely debunks your entire argument. But you conveniently ignore it because you know it kills your argument.

The BRB clearly states that FMCs "move like Jump". The Jump rules then give them DS. Period.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I just designate it as arriving in Deep Strike reserve then when it arrives it counts as "being in Swooping mode". It does not enter Swooping mode as you are wrongly reading.

How do you take that to mean it was always in Swooping mode all along? You're Retroactively adding a rule.

So ignoring the fact you've broken the Deep Strike rule of placing a unit in Deep Strike reserve without Deep Strike... What if it doesn't arrive from Deep Strike reserve? For example you fail 2 reserve rolls and the game ends due to you being tabled.
The FMC never arrives, so never counts as being Swooping. So you've placed a model into Deep Strike Reserve illegally, as you are unable to Retroactively add your rule.

There is nothing keeping me from designating it as arriving via Deep Strike Reserve.

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
[Two Flight modes, the standard movement of any MC is not a Flight Mode. The rest has been shown many times. Now show the model is in a flight mode when in reserve.

You continue with this despite being proven wrong time and again. The "additional rules" that you quote include the movement rules which replace the MC movement. This completely debunks your entire argument. But you conveniently ignore it because you know it kills your argument.

The BRB clearly states that FMCs "move like Jump". The Jump rules then give them DS. Period.

It's not been proven once. I keep asking for this proof.

Please quote the rule that a Flight Mode must always, at all times, be selected (including Reserve). Until you can do that, you're invoking a rule you have no permission to use.
Then quote a rule allowing you to choose a Flight Mode while in reserve.

Please actaully come up with some rules, rather than just saying "has been proven wrong" when you havn't presented a single rule.

col_impact wrote:
There is nothing keeping me from designating it as arriving via Deep Strike Reserve.

You don't "designating it as arriving via Deep Strike Reserve". That's a made up sentence.

Yes there is something preventing you from placing a unit into Deep Strike Reserve. The lack of Deep Strike! You're trying to place it in there because it might later gain the rules, then apply it retroactively. No rule supports this.

 grendel083 wrote:

Also, per your use of declare, every turn there will be a gap where the FMC has no mode, correct?

You mean because it lasts until the start of the next turn, and a new one isn't chosen until the start of its move? That can create a gap no matter what definition you use. "Reveal" doesn't change that either, as there is still a set duration.
Are you then going to claim that is goes from "No Flight mode" to "A Flight Mode" and counts as a change? Rather than than consider the change to be different to the one used last turn?
If you take that meaning of change, you'll create propblems. Including if you use "Reveal" as it still only lasts until the start of the next turn.
And are you still claiming this idea that you must "reveal" without choosing? So we are still in the land of impossible situations?

declare as used in the game means "make an official proclamation". It does not coincide with choice, although it can. You are adding in the choice. Declare only makes a statement as to the state of things and the state of things could be retroactively true.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
[Two Flight modes, the standard movement of any MC is not a Flight Mode. The rest has been shown many times. Now show the model is in a flight mode when in reserve.

You continue with this despite being proven wrong time and again. The "additional rules" that you quote include the movement rules which replace the MC movement. This completely debunks your entire argument. But you conveniently ignore it because you know it kills your argument.

The BRB clearly states that FMCs "move like Jump". The Jump rules then give them DS. Period.

It's not been proven once. I keep asking for this proof.

Please quote the rule that a Flight Mode must always, at all times, be selected (including Reserve). Until you can do that, you're invoking a rule you have no permission to use.
Then quote a rule allowing you to choose a Flight Mode while in reserve.

Please actaully come up with some rules, rather than just saying "has been proven wrong" when you havn't presented a single rule.

col_impact wrote:
There is nothing keeping me from designating it as arriving via Deep Strike Reserve.

You don't "designating it as arriving via Deep Strike Reserve". That's a made up sentence.

Yes there is something preventing you from placing a unit into Deep Strike Reserve. The lack of Deep Strike! You're trying to place it in there because it might later gain the rules, then apply it retroactively. No rule supports this.

Per the rules, I simply tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike

col_impact wrote:
declare as used in the game means "make an official proclamation". It does not coincide with choice, although it can. You are adding in the choice. Declare only makes a statement as to the state of things and the state of things could be retroactively true.

So you want to declare and Retroactively apply one of two rules without ever choosing between them, good luck with that.
You're creating more than one impossible situation.
For one, if the game ends before it arrives, you've placed it in Deep Strike Reserve illegally. Shall we retroactivle ignore this break of rules, and pretent we never did it?

Per the rules, I simply tell the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike

Per the rules you need Deep Strike, when you're delaring it you don't have it (means you're breaking a rule by decalring it). You're just trying to count on it getting it later.

So each subsequent turn, when you 'declare' a FMC is Swooping you aren't making a choice, you are merely stating what mode it is in? Great so an FMC can never change modes?