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When in reserve it is not described as moving like a Jump Unit. Simple as that, there is no permission to select one of those modes.

Being described as moving like a jump unit is something that MIGHT happen in the models future, but is not garenteed.

There is indeed a type of movement they have access to which is not described as moving like a Jump Unit. They are also Monstrous Creatures, and follow all of those rules, so that standard Move is still part of their rules. The rules for flight Modes also state CAN move as Swooping or Gliding, not MUST. This introduces the possibility of other forms of Movement.

Simply put, when in reserve. They are NOT described as moving like Jump Infantry, they simply have a chance of doing so later (and again, it's not garenteed).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the game ends early (tabling for example) with a FMC still in reserve having never deployed, has it at any point been described as moving like a Jump Unit?
No, because it was never allowed to select a Flight Mode.

Your hung up on the Reserve thing. It is not relevant.


You are given a choice of 1 of 2 methods to move. Its either one or the other, not a third option. Both are Jump.

If the game ends early (tabling for example) with a FMC still in reserve having never deployed, has it at any point been described as moving like a Jump Unit?
No, because it was never allowed to select a Flight Mode.

Yes it is described as moving like a jump unit because the FMC rule describes it as moving like a Jump unit, as I have quoted to you several times. You seem to require some kind of physical on table movement to meet criteria. The rule does not.

Reserve is very relevent.

You're trying to invoke a rule on a model that doesn't qualify for it, because it might qualify sometime in the future.

In order to Deep Strike, you need the Deep Strike rule, and to be in reserve. So in reserve is the crucial time. And at that point it has no Flight Mode selected. It is NOT described as moving like a Jump Unit.

Yes you are given the choice of two methods later on in the game, a third exists on account of it being a Monstrous Creature. Neither of the two flight modes are available in reserve, there's simply no allowance to select one. That leaves it's default option only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the point when it's in Reserve, how is it described as moving? It can't be swooping or Gliding, as the FMC rules are very clear on when it can pick one of those (and reserve isn't one of them). So without Swooping or Gliding being an option, how is it described as moving?

 grendel083 wrote:

Yes you are given the choice of two methods later on in the game, a third exists on account of it being a Monstrous Creature. Neither of the two flight modes are available in reserve, there's simply no allowance to select one. That leaves it's default option only.

This is your hangup. There are only two options for a FMC to move.

"Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding." There is not third default option of generic MC in there. You have a choice of two possibles. Both are described as Jump. Both allow you to Deep Strike.

Fragile wrote:
You have a choice of two possibles. Both are described as Jump. Both allow you to Deep Strike.

And which of those two is it when in reserve?
(I'll give you a hint: it's a trick question )

It's neither, and here's why:

BRB FMC's wrote:Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules.

So all the rules of MC's apply to FMC's. That would included movement.

Flight Modes wrote:Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.

So can, not must. And nothing saying it must always be one of the two.

Gliding wrote:If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

So, when Gliding it is described as moving like a Jump Unit.

Swooping wrote:If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions:

And when Swooping it is also described as moving like a Jump Unit.


So, it is a Monstrous creature which follows all of those rules including movement. It can also select one of two modes that means it is described as moving like a Jump Unit. No rule that says it must always be in one of the Flight Modes. So far, we have 3 methods of movement.

Now what times do rule say you can pick a Flight Mode?
1). Deployment (including starting on the table, arriving from reserve, and if possible Deep Strike).
2). At the start of its move.

No other times listed. So in Reserve, neither of the 2 times above can apply. A Flight Mode cannot be selected. And there is no "default" flight mode that applies at all times.

So it is not Swooping, and it is not Gliding. It is not described as moving like a Jump Unit.
That leaves it's normal movement, the same as every other MC, that is NOT described as Moving like a Jump Unit. So when in Reserve, it does not have Deep Strike.

You're trying to invoke a rule it does NOT qualify for, just because it might qualify for it later.

 grendel083 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Yes you are given the choice of two methods later on in the game, a third exists on account of it being a Monstrous Creature. Neither of the two flight modes are available in reserve, there's simply no allowance to select one. That leaves it's default option only.

This is your hangup. There are only two options for a FMC to move.

"Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding." There is not third default option of generic MC in there. You have a choice of two possibles. Both are described as Jump. Both allow you to Deep Strike.

And which of those two is it when in reserve?
(I'll give you a hint: it's a trick question )

Give you a hint. It doesnt matter. The FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit in every possible form it can move. You seem to think that being in reserve changes this. It does not. The simple description in the FMC rule on page 131 of my particular rule book is all that is necessary to fulfill the Jump Unit rule to allow Deepstrike.

OK this is very simple to solve
here we go
"Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.'" So that means if a unit has any description of "moiving like" a jump unit has its all the specail rules of a jump unit.
Flying monstrous creatures are described as moving like a jump unit therefore they have all the special rules of a jump unit
RAwR.
In reservers or out of reserves when i read the rules for the phrase ' it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature' is still present whether or not it is being used.
Grendel A FMC would need to 100% lose the swooping rule for you to have a case. Even if it is in reserves it still has the swooping rule is still apart of its rules, just as a model with armourbane still has the rule even if it isnt in close combat

SaJeel wrote:
Grendel A FMC would need to 100% lose the swooping rule for you to have a case. Even if it is in reserves it still has the swooping rule is still apart of its rules, just as a model with armourbane still has the rule even if it isnt in close combat

Not at all. It's more like giving a model Armourbane when it doesn't have it, just because it might get it later. Look at when a model can swoop or glide. It can't do either in reserve.

Fragile wrote:
Give you a hint. It doesnt matter. The FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit in every possible form it can move. You seem to think that being in reserve changes this. It does not. The simple description in the FMC rule on page 131 of my particular rule book is all that is necessary to fulfill the Jump Unit rule to allow Deepstrike.

You're tring to invoke a rule for a model that doesn't qualify for it, just because it might qualify for it later.

It has both swoop and glide tho, it doesnt lose them when it is in reserves correct?

 grendel083 wrote:

SaJeel wrote:
Grendel A FMC would need to 100% lose the swooping rule for you to have a case. Even if it is in reserves it still has the swooping rule is still apart of its rules, just as a model with armourbane still has the rule even if it isnt in close combat

Not at all. It's more like giving a model Armourbane when it doesn't have it, just because it might get it later. Look at when a model can swoop or glide. It can't do either in reserve.

Fragile wrote:
Give you a hint. It doesnt matter. The FMC is described as moving like a Jump unit in every possible form it can move. You seem to think that being in reserve changes this. It does not. The simple description in the FMC rule on page 131 of my particular rule book is all that is necessary to fulfill the Jump Unit rule to allow Deepstrike.

You're tring to invoke a rule for a model that doesn't qualify for it, just because it might qualify for it later.

I am not invoking a rule. That would be something like Fateweaver's once per turn reroll. The rule states that FMCs move like Jump. Your trying to claim that because you cannot take Move actions in Reserve, that it somehow disqualifies that unit despite a clearly written rule. There is zero ambiguity in the fact that a FMC is described as moving like jump.

Fragile,
It is a Timing Debate:
These two modes can be chosen at a specific Time, prior to that choice what movement mode is it in?

JinxDragon wrote:
Fragile,
It is a Timing Debate:
These two modes can be chosen at a specific Time, prior to that choice what movement mode is it in?

It really isnt a timing debate. The simple question is "Is a FMC described as moving like a Jump unit". In every possible way it can move, the answer is yes. Your attempting to force the FMC to somehow move to gain these benefits. It does not have to choose either method of movement.

Is the unit in question ever described as 'moving like' jump units? Then apply the rule.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

units described as 'moving like' jump units follow all of the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules

Is the unit in question ever described as 'moving like' jump units? Then apply the rule.

The answer is yes
Are we really trying to argue that when an FMC is it reservers the Swooping and gliding rules don't exist? Is that what grendel is saying?

I was so sure of the answer when I opened the thread, but after reading I can see where the issues arise. I can see two main points of contention.

1) This is the most obvious issue: does 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature' allow you to use the special rules of jump units.

2) If the game does allow FMCs to use the jump rules: An FMC that enters play via deepstrike it always enters play in the swooping flight mode. Only a gliding FMC 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.'
As being an FMC does not inherently provide deepstrike, and an FMC arriving by deepstrike must do so in swooping mode, does the FMC have permission to access the deepstrike rules if it can not enter play whilst gliding.

If we are going to strictly rule lawyer this, it does seem imo that units without the deepstrike ability that become FMC do not have permission to use the deepstrike rule.

However, this is not something I actually do or enforce, and we do allow flyrants to deepstrike where I play.

From a fluff perspective (no bearing on the actual rules): If my Daemon prince deepstrikes and must enter play as a swooping FMC, I must surmise that it flew to the battlefield. If my Daemon prince can fly to a battlefield, why can't the flyrant.

GW has a history of vague rules. The answer is simple: In friendly gaming groups come to a consensus. In tournaments ask the TO on any rule queries.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I was so sure of the answer when I opened the thread, but after reading I can see where the issues arise. I can see two main points of contention.

1) This is the most obvious issue: does 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature' allow you to use the special rules of jump units.

2) If the game does allow FMCs to use the jump rules: An FMC that enters play via deepstrike it always enters play in the swooping flight mode. Only a gliding FMC 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.'

Read the first sentence of Swooping

Fragile wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I was so sure of the answer when I opened the thread, but after reading I can see where the issues arise. I can see two main points of contention.

1) This is the most obvious issue: does 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature' allow you to use the special rules of jump units.

2) If the game does allow FMCs to use the jump rules: An FMC that enters play via deepstrike it always enters play in the swooping flight mode. Only a gliding FMC 'moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.'

Read the first sentence of Swooping

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump MonstrousCreature

Ok this is the first sentence, what is your point? It says moves like. It does not say it 'is' a jump monstrous creature. My first point is still valid.

@Fragile as long as the FMC is not swooping or gliding, it does not get the special rules.

It cannot swoop or glide in reserve and it has the possibility like every model to just move normally (which it will never use in game due to swoop or glide being declared when it enters play), so no it doesn't get DS at the start of the game when you need to put it in Deep Strike Reserve.

What's the third mode the FMC can be in when it's not gliding or swooping? An FMC is always in one or the other. There is no third option. You are not allowed to make up a third option. An FMC that goes back into reserves is locked to the mode in which it left. An FMC that arrives via Deep Strike is locked to swooping. An FMC that is grounded is immediately in gliding mode. There is no third "limbo" state that exists in the rules.

col_impact wrote:
What's the third mode the FMC can be in when it's not gliding or swooping? An FMC is always in one or the other. There is no third option. You are not allowed to make up a third option. An FMC that goes back into reserves is locked to the mode in which it left. An FMC that arrives via Deep Strike is locked to swooping. There is no third "limbo" state that exists in the rules.

What is it when in Reserve?
The FMC rules are very clear on when you can select a Flight Mode, reserve isn't one of them.
Yes going back into reserve would mean it has one, but starting the game in Reserve it doesn't.
The third option is simply the default movement for any Monstrous Creatures, since FMC's are MC's with extra rules.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
What's the third mode the FMC can be in when it's not gliding or swooping? An FMC is always in one or the other. There is no third option. You are not allowed to make up a third option. An FMC that goes back into reserves is locked to the mode in which it left. An FMC that arrives via Deep Strike is locked to swooping. There is no third "limbo" state that exists in the rules.

What is it when in Reserve?
The FMC rules are very clear on when you can select a Flight Mode, reserve isn't one of them.
Yes going back into reserve would mean it has one, but starting the game in Reserve it doesn't.
The third option is simply the default movement for any Monstrous Creatures, since FMC's are MC's with extra rules.

Show in the rules where an FMC can choose or be in a third option and tell me with the rules what that is called.

col_impact wrote:
Show in the rules where an FMC can choose or be in a third option and tell me with the rules what that is called.

I already have, if you scroll most of the way up this page, but I'll give you the highlights again.

First part of the Flying Monstrous Creature (FMC) rules explains that a FMC is a Monstrous Creature (MC) with some extra rules. So all rules that apply to MC's also apply to FMC's. This would included movement. So right there we have a default form of movement for the unit type.

We are then told that there are 2 Flight Modes available, Swooping and Gliding. The rules then go on to lay out how and when you may select a Flight Mode. The first being when it deploys (start on the table, arrive from reserve etc..) the second being at the start of it's Move (this requires it to be on the table).

When you can select a Flight Mode is clearly layed out. None of those times included when the Model is in Reserve. So you cannot choose for the model to be Swooping or Gliding. When in Reserve it is in neither Flight Mode. So how does it move when not swooping or gliding? The same way any other MC moves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please feel free to varify the rules quotes i used in the post further up the page (they were direct copy/past from the iBook rulebook).

If you can find a rule that states a FMC must have a flight mode selected while in Reserve AND a rule that allows you to choose one (or enforces one) when in Reserve, then fair play. But from what I can see, there is no way to have a Flight mode selected while in Reserve (excluding ongoing reserve of course).

 grendel083 wrote:
When you can select a Flight Mode is clearly layed out. None of those times included when the Model is in Reserve. So you cannot choose for the model to be Swooping or Gliding. When in Reserve it is in neither Flight Mode. So how does it move when not swooping or gliding? The same way any other MC moves.

Just Curious:

If you do not select to Glide and do not select to Swoop, can you move the standard 6" of a MC? (Assuming deployed on the board turn 1, and it is, say, turn 3?)

I will then think further if this provides any advantage (such as Jump Units running through terrain without Dangerous tests)

 BlackTalos wrote:
Just Curious:

If you do not select to Glide and do not select to Swoop, can you move the standard 6" of a MC? (Assuming deployed on the board turn 1, and it is, say, turn 3?)

I will then think further if this provides any advantage (such as Jump Units running through terrain without Dangerous tests)

When entering play or at the start of the move, a Flight Mode must be selected. There's just no allowance to select one in Reserve.

A standard Jump unit can only use it's Skybourne in one phase, so not using it the Movement phase would allow them to go through difficult terrain without a dangerous test. So a Gliding FMC can do the same.

Oh yeah, now i remember the "must". And yeah, the "move like Jump MC" sort of came to me as soon as i posted. Thanks

An FMC does not choose to go into Swooping or Gliding mode as soon as it enters play, it DECLARES



declare means

1.to make known or state clearly, especially in explicit or formal terms:

2.to announce officially; proclaim

3.to reveal; show:

This means that you are not changing anything about what state the FMC is in, only making it known at that point in time for the game record. Prior to that point in time it is in Gliding or Swooping mode, it just hasn't been declared by the player yet which one.

Declare does not mean "choose to go into."

col_impact wrote:
Declare does not mean "choose to go into."

Declare one of two, you still need to choose between 2 options. Whichever one makes you happy.

Can you find any rule allowing allowing the choice (or declaring a choice, if you prefer) of Gliding or Swooping while in Reserve?

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Declare does not mean "choose to go into."

Declare one of two, you still need to choose between 2 options. Whichever one makes you happy.

Can you find any rule allowing allowing the choice (or declaring a choice, if you prefer) of Gliding or Swooping while in Reserve?

You are reading in "choice". You are not permitted to add stuff to the rules. "Choice" is something you are adding. Declare does not mean "choose." Declare means that you are making it known or revealing. So the player reveals whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode as it enters play. This means that before it was revealed it was in Swooping or Gliding mode.

So rules as written, FMC have deep strike.

col_impact wrote:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.

Problem with the issue is the text highlighted above. Nothing in there says it was Gliding or Swooping on Turn 2 (Reserves) if you roll reserves for it on Turn 3.

It's down to Timing of the rule (What Grendel describes - my guess)

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode.

Problem with the issue is the text highlighted above. Nothing in there says it was Gliding or Swooping on Turn 2 (Reserves) if you roll reserves for it on Turn 3.

It's down to Timing of the rule (What Grendel describes - my guess)

There is no timing issue. Just take full note of the use of the word declare and the state of the FMC prior to declaration logically follows. The player does not choose as it enters play. The player reveals.

Following the use of the word declare, it can be conclusively stated that the FMC is in Gliding or Swooping mode before it enters play.