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col_impact wrote:
If you don't tell your opponent that that unit will be arriving via Deep Strike then it can only walk on via Reserve.

And if you tell your opponent it will be arriving via Deep Strike, but it doesn't have the Deep Strike USR, then you have NOT met the requirements of Deep Strike Reserve. It is NOT in Deep Strike Reserve, and CANNOT arrive via Deep Strike.

If you think it does, you're inventing rules.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If you don't tell your opponent that that unit will be arriving via Deep Strike then it can only walk on via Reserve.

And if you tell your opponent it will be arriving via Deep Strike, but it doesn't have the Deep Strike USR, then you have NOT met the requirements of Deep Strike Reserve. It is NOT in Deep Strike Reserve, and CANNOT arrive via Deep Strike.

If you think it does, you're inventing rules.

There are no requirements for Deep Strike Reserve.

 grendel083 wrote:
You're using a rule the unit can't use.

So you claim FMCs cannot move ?

col_impact wrote:
There are no requirements for Deep Strike Reserve.

The Deep Strike Rules (the one that covers Deep Strike Reserve) disagrees with you.

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
You're using a rule the unit can't use.

So you claim FMCs cannot move ?

When in Reserve? Can any unit move when in Reserve?
When on the table they always have a Flight Mode selected.
FMC's still follow the rules for MC's. How do they move? Nothing in the FMC rules replaces anything, it only adds to it.

col_impact wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If you don't tell your opponent that that unit will be arriving via Deep Strike then it can only walk on via Reserve.

And if you tell your opponent it will be arriving via Deep Strike, but it doesn't have the Deep Strike USR, then you have NOT met the requirements of Deep Strike Reserve. It is NOT in Deep Strike Reserve, and CANNOT arrive via Deep Strike.

If you think it does, you're inventing rules.

There are no requirements for Deep Strike Reserve.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

So lets see to be placed in Deep Strike Reserve you must tell your opponent that the unit will be Deep Striking, which it cannot if 1+ member does not have the Deep Strike special rule.

Fragile,
Ah straw-men, as we all know Grendel083 is stating that the Flying Monstrous Creature can not choose a movement type prior to the moment we have permission to make that declaration.

However, though I can not fathom why something in Reserves would need to Move:
What prevents the Basic Rule granting a default Movement of 6 inches from being applied?

JinxDragon wrote:
Deviantduck,
Even without specific instruction that Flying Monstrous Creature are Monstrous Creatures, the Model in question still has access to a 6 inch Move as that is granted by a Basic Rule. As per Basic Vs Advanced, all Basic Rules apply to every Model and Unit Types are not a disqualifying factor, as that Rule lacks mention of them let alone informing us to discount x or y Unit Types from any Basic Rule. It doesn't come up much in relation to Flyers or Flying Monstrous Creatures, they have more Advanced Rules telling us that they must move in a way which is not default, but that default method does not suddenly go away simply because the Unit is more then infantry.

So back to the original question:
If the Rule forcing non-default movement has a specific Timing involved, what forces/allows the Model to use the non-default movement prior to that point in time?

Right. But it also affects other rules like Strafing Run(+1 BS when shooting at a MC). Are FMCs only FMCs? are they FMCs and MCs? It's like they made them a separate unit type, and then went ahead an blurred the lines back to the unit type they tried to separate them from.

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If you don't tell your opponent that that unit will be arriving via Deep Strike then it can only walk on via Reserve.

And if you tell your opponent it will be arriving via Deep Strike, but it doesn't have the Deep Strike USR, then you have NOT met the requirements of Deep Strike Reserve. It is NOT in Deep Strike Reserve, and CANNOT arrive via Deep Strike.

If you think it does, you're inventing rules.

There are no requirements for Deep Strike Reserve.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

So lets see to be placed in Deep Strike Reserve you must tell your opponent that the unit will be Deep Striking, which it cannot if 1+ member does not have the Deep Strike special rule.

Telling the opponent that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike is what is called Deep Strike Reserve.

col_impact wrote:
Telling the opponent that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike is what is called Deep Strike Reserve.

No it isn't. Deep Strike Reserve is something actually found in the rules.

Telling your opponent something doesn't mean anything, unless it follows a rule. It's just conversation.

Happyjew quoted the rule you're avoinding with this made up version that does nothing.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Telling the opponent that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike is what is called Deep Strike Reserve.

No it isn't. Deep Strike Reserve is something actually found in the rules.

Telling your opponent something doesn't mean anything, unless it follows a rule. It's just conversation.

Happyjew quoted the rule you're avoinding with this made up version that does nothing.

Deep Strike Reserve = "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike"

col_impact wrote:
Deep Strike Reserve = "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike"

Is that quote taken from the Deep Strike Rule?

deviantduck,
I see your issue with it and... yeah, typical of Game Workshop to do something like that.

Taken out of context, that rule means that when putting any unit in reserves, " you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike".

Don't take rules out of context.

Zimko wrote:
Taken out of context, that rule means that when putting any unit in reserves, " you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike".

Don't take rules out of context.

I am not taking anything out of context, that is what the BRB defines Deep Strike Reserve as. If you don't tell your opponent that your unit will be arriving by Deep Strike then you have not designated a Deep Strike Reserve.

col_impact wrote:

Zimko wrote:
Taken out of context, that rule means that when putting any unit in reserves, " you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike".

Don't take rules out of context.

I am not taking anything out of context, that is what the BRB defines Deep Strike Reserve as. If you don't tell your opponent that your unit will be arriving by Deep Strike then you have not designated a Deep Strike Reserve.

Since you missed my question, I'll ask again.

Was that a quote from the Deep Strike rule?

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Zimko wrote:
Taken out of context, that rule means that when putting any unit in reserves, " you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike".

Don't take rules out of context.

I am not taking anything out of context, that is what the BRB defines Deep Strike Reserve as. If you don't tell your opponent that your unit will be arriving by Deep Strike then you have not designated a Deep Strike Reserve.

Since you missed my question, I'll ask again.

Was that a quote from the Deep Strike rule?

Sorry. Missed your question. Yes, the definition for how Deep Strike Reserve is designated is found in the Deep Strike rule.

Can one use even a segment of a Special Rule on a Model which does not have access to that Rule?

JinxDragon wrote:
Can one use even a segment of a Special Rule on a Model which does not have access to that Rule?

The Deep Strike rule is a listing of requirements for a successful Deep Strike. One of those requirements is having the Deep Strike special rule when you Deep Strike.

I place the FMC in reserve and I tell my opponent that it will be arriving via Deep Strike (which designates it as Deep Strike Reserve)

When I go to actually Deep Strike I have all the components I need to Deep Strike. Deep Strike rule is on the profile. I started the game in reserves. I told my opponent the FMC will be arriving by Deep Strike.

JinxDragon wrote:
Can one use even a segment of a Special Rule on a Model which does not have access to that Rule?

No, you most certainly can not.
You can't use a rule you don't have.
And a Segment? Ignore the requirements, just using the bits you want? No.

col_impact wrote:
Sorry. Missed your question. Yes, the definition for how Deep Strike Reserve is designated is found in the Deep Strike rule.

So you're invoking a Special Rule that the unit doesn't have, bypassing the rules requirements and placing the unit into Deep Strike Reserve?

The rule you quoted, if you're using that you're using the Deep Strike rules.
Using a rule a model doesn't have, is breaking the rules.

They don't have deep strike. You can't use that quote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
When I go to actually Deep Strike I have all the components I need to Deep Strike.

When you went into Deep Strike Reserve you did not. Making the use of Deep Strike reserve illegal.

Retroactively meeting the requirements is not supported by the rules.

You did not answer the question:
By default, are you allowed to apply half of a Rule?
Does that permission, if it exists, extend to using a Rule Segment on a Model that does not have access to the whole of the Rule?

I have many problems with Deep Strike itself, mostly because the Timing involved with the Rule is clear as mud, but the above questions address more then just Deep Strike. In order to evoke a segment of a Rule, regardless of what that segment states, one has to show that they have legal permission to do so. Without access to the Rule in question it is not possible to apply the Rule in question, even partially, so I need to see something which shows you have permission to do this.

 grendel083 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Can one use even a segment of a Special Rule on a Model which does not have access to that Rule?

No, you most certainly can not.
You can't use a rule you don't have.
And a Segment? Ignore the requirements, just using the bits you want? No.

col_impact wrote:
Sorry. Missed your question. Yes, the definition for how Deep Strike Reserve is designated is found in the Deep Strike rule.

So you're invoking a Special Rule that the unit doesn't have, bypassing the rules requirements and placing the unit into Deep Strike Reserve?

The rule you quoted, if you're using that you're using the Deep Strike rules.
Using a rule a model doesn't have, is breaking the rules.

They don't have deep strike. You can't use that quote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
When I go to actually Deep Strike I have all the components I need to Deep Strike.

When you went into Deep Strike Reserve you did not. Making the use of Deep Strike reserve illegal.

Retroactively meeting the requirements is not supported by the rules.

Telling my opponent that I am arriving by Deep Strike is fulfilling a requirement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
You did not answer the question:
By default, are you allowed to apply half of a Rule?
Does that permission, if it exists, extend to using a Rule Segment on a Model that does not have access to the whole of the Rule?

Telling my opponent that I am arriving by Deep Strike is fulfilling a requirement.

Read the rule guys. Its a requirement. Not something granted by the rules.

Answer the question itself, ignore deep strike completely if it makes it easier for you:

By default, are you allowed to apply half of a Rule to any given situation?
Does that permission extend to Rules the Model does not have access to?

JinxDragon wrote:
Answer the question itself, ignore deep strike completely if it makes it easier for you:

By default, are you allowed to apply half of a Rule to any given situation?
Does that permission extend to Rules the Model does not have access to?

Paying expected requirements of a rule is not applying half of a rule.

Deep Strike fails to happen if any of the requirements is missing.

I could attempt to Deep Strike a regular jump unit and that fails because I did not tell my opponent that that unit was arriving via deep strike when I put it in reserves even though Deep Strike is obviously on the profile.

Col_Impact,
How... just how?
Applying a section from the entity of the Rule itself, ignoring the requirements that come prior and the instructions which come after, is literally "half applying" a Rule!

I understand why you are concerned about some of the things within the Deep Strike Special Rule, I personally have put it into the 'broken' pile myself due to some of my own questions, but what you are pushing forth here is so far from comprehensible I can no longer follow your line of reasoning. You are obeying only a single line of instructions, while ignoring anything else found within the Rule in question, with a Model that does not yet have access to the Rule. I can not fathom how this is anything but illegal!

Until you can quote me a Rule in the book which state what you are doing is permitted, informing us when we and how we actually go about doing so, I'm going to simply point out that you lack permission to do what you are attempting to do.

JinxDragon wrote:
Col_Impact,
How... just how?
Applying a section from the entity of the Rule itself, ignoring the requirements that come prior and the instructions which come after, is literally "half applying" a Rule!

I understand why you are concerned about some of the things within the Deep Strike Special Rule, I personally have put it into the 'broken' pile myself due to some of my own questions, but what you are pushing forth here is so far from comprehensible I can no longer follow your line of reasoning. You are obeying only a single line of instructions, while ignoring anything else found within the Rule in question, with a Model that does not yet have access to the Rule. I can not fathom how this is anything but illegal!

Until you can quote me a Rule in the book which state what you are doing is permitted, informing us when we and how we actually go about doing so, I'm going to simply point out that you lack permission to do what you are attempting to do.

Deep Strike doesn't happen until you actually deep strike.

Having the Deep Strike USR is a requirement.

Putting the unit in reserves is a requirement.

Telling the opponent that you are arriving by Deep Strike is a requirement.

Getting a successful reserve roll is generally also a requirement.

When you have met all the requirements for Deep Strike then you may attempt to actually Deep Strike and that is the point in time when all requirements must be fulfilled.

JinxDragon wrote:
Fragile,
Ah straw-men, as we all know Grendel083 is stating that the Flying Monstrous Creature can not choose a movement type prior to the moment we have permission to make that declaration.

Show me where this is necessary.

However, though I can not fathom why something in Reserves would need to Move:
What prevents the Basic Rule granting a default Movement of 6 inches from being applied?

Jinx, at least have the courtesy to go back and find the quote that answers this. It has been shown to Grendel numerous times.

col_impact: Yes those are all requirements. Of a Rule the unit/model doesn't have! You can't even call that rule, let alone meets it's requirements (retroactively it should be noted) if the unit doesn't have it.

Fragile wrote:
Jinx, at least have the courtesy to go back and find the quote that answers this. It has been shown to Grendel numerous times.

Ah yes, you claimed the FMC's movement rules COMPLETELY replaced any and all rules related to Movement for a MC, but declined to quote a rule proving it.
If it uses the default movement of an MC or not is really irrelevent as a model is never required to move while in reserve, but it's still there.
The important part being is that it isn't Swooping or Gliding. No rule allows it to be.

Once again, no rule allows you to pick a Flight Mode in Reserve. No Rule requires a Flight Mode to be selected at all times. If you disagree with either of these points please post a rule quote proving otherwise.

Now I ask again, without referencing either flight mode (since they cannot be selected), when in reserve how does it move?

I disagree with your assumption on the Timing, Col_impact;

One of the issues I have with the Deep Strike Special Rule is the fact it contains multiple Timings: Start of Turn, Placed into Reserves, Arriving itself.... It is a Rule that is all over the place, so it is not possible to really know if any particular moment is the 'official moment this Rule is evoked.' That does not mean we have permission to simply choose one of these Timings and announce that is when we are evoking the Rule, for many reasons but the most binding being that the Rulebook simply does not grant us permission to make those sort of choices.

It is far more likely that the Deep Strike Special Rule 'officially triggers' during Deployment itself, for this is when we first encounter instructions within the Rule telling us to do something....



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frigile,
Having access to an additional method of movement does not remove the original method.
It is the requirement to select either Gliding or Swooping that makes it impossible to select 'walking,' and that declaration occurs after Reserves.

JinxDragon wrote:
I disagree with your assumption on the Timing, Col_impact;

One of the issues I have with the Deep Strike Special Rule is the fact it contains multiple Timings: Start of Turn, Placed into Reserves, Arriving itself.... It is a Rule that is all over the place, so it is not possible to really know if any particular moment is the 'official moment this Rule is evoked.' That does not mean we have permission to simply choose one of these Timings and announce that is when we are evoking the Rule, for many reasons but the most binding being that the Rulebook simply does not grant us permission to make those sort of choices.

It is far more likely that the Deep Strike Special Rule 'officially triggers' during Deployment itself, for this is when we first encounter instructions within the Rule telling us to do something....

You can satisfy requirements without following a rule. It is clear when a unit is actually deep striking, unless you want to be obtuse about it. The requirements span several time periods, ut the actual deep strike happens at a particular time.

col_impact wrote:
You can satisfy requirements without following a rule. It is clear when a unit is actually deep striking, unless you want to be obtuse about it.

Yes you can meet the requirements, but if you're not following the rule that doesn't mean anything. And you're still trying to meet the requirements of a rule a unit doesn't actually have.

And you can't fulfill the requirements at the time they are needed. The rules do not support you retroactively meeting requirements

"I'll do it later" doesn't cut it.