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 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The burden of proof is on you at this point since you go directly against the definition of declare.

You need to prove that the rules say that you are choosing to go into Swooping or Gliding mode from some nonGliding, nonSwooping state. Declare means you are REVEALING whether you are in Swooping or Gliding mode and that no change of state is presently occuring.

The definition of Declare is: formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).

Now prove that the model is in a Flight Mode prior to declaring it.

Show source for definition of declare. Hallmark cards is not a solid source.

col_impact wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The burden of proof is on you at this point since you go directly against the definition of declare.

You need to prove that the rules say that you are choosing to go into Swooping or Gliding mode from some nonGliding, nonSwooping state. Declare means you are REVEALING whether you are in Swooping or Gliding mode and that no change of state is presently occuring.

The definition of Declare is: formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).

Now prove that the model is in a Flight Mode prior to declaring it.

Show source for definition of declare. Hallmark cards is not a solid source.

Given the country this rulebook was written there is only one valid source for definitions:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/declare

Since we are dealing with a state or condition (in this case a flight mode) this definition fits far better than yours.

For easy reference it's 1.1
You're using 1.4

If we go by 'the google' https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=define+declare

- say something in a solemn and emphatic manner.
"he declared that he never revises his prose"
synonyms: proclaim, announce, state, reveal, air, voice, articulate, express, vent, set forth, publicize, broadcast; More

- formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).
"Spain declared war on Britain in 1796"
synonyms: assert, maintain, state, affirm, contend, argue, insist, hold, profess, claim, avow, swear; formalaver
"he declared that they were guilty"

- pronounce or assert (a person or thing) to be something specified.
"the mansion was declared a fire hazard"
synonyms: show to be, reveal as, confirm as, prove to be, attest to someone's being
"his speech declared him to be a gentleman"
- openly align oneself for or against (a party or position) in a dispute.
"Mr. Roosevelt had declared for “a new deal.”"
announce oneself as a candidate for an election.
"he declared last April"
- reveal one's intentions or identity.
archaic
- express feelings of love to someone.
"she waited in vain for him to declare himself"

Both definitions are there. But since you don't make a prior choice in flight mode, 'to reveal' doesn't really make sense.

Is it possible to follow any rules for movement whilst in reserve?

Grendel i understand your point logical arguement.

It is the following deduction i can't get over,

1) the rules state "Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

2) An FMC is described as 'moving like' a jump monstrous creature

Please just tell me in as simple and clear a manner as possible siting rules that the above two points are incorrect


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean would you say that a FMC and a Swooping FMC is as different as an beast and an FMC?

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The burden of proof is on you at this point since you go directly against the definition of declare.

You need to prove that the rules say that you are choosing to go into Swooping or Gliding mode from some nonGliding, nonSwooping state. Declare means you are REVEALING whether you are in Swooping or Gliding mode and that no change of state is presently occuring.

The definition of Declare is: formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).

Now prove that the model is in a Flight Mode prior to declaring it.

Show source for definition of declare. Hallmark cards is not a solid source.

Given the country this rulebook was written there is only one valid source for definitions:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/declare

Since we are dealing with a state or condition (in this case a flight mode) this definition fits far better than yours.

For easy reference it's 1.1
You're using 1.4

Even in your definition, there is merely the announcement of a state that is already in existence. There is indeed no change of state happening. No choice is being made. The player is declaring that the FMC is in Gliding or Swooping mode for the game state. There is no language to indicate a change has been made from a nonGliding or nonSwooping state, merely that a statement to the factuality of Swooping or Gliding is being announced.

The burden on you is to show how a choice is being made that is changing the state of affairs from a nonSwooping, nonGliding mode to a Swooping or Gliding one.

Col Impact, I've already shown that you can be in a non-gliding, non-swooping state on the previous page. I also referenced that post AGAIN on the previous page last time you asked for proof. Do you have me on ignore or something? or are you just not reading all the posts?

edit for elaboration so people don't have to go scrolling through pages:
- I move my FMC and declare that it is Gliding until the beginning of its next turn.
- Next turn I do not move the FMC, and therefore cannot declare Swooping or Gliding.
- He is no longer swooping or gliding for an entire turn and is treated as a regular MC.

Technically, EVERY time you announce Swooping/Gliding, you are changing his state from a non-gliding non-swooping state because the previous movement mode's effects END at the beginning of your turn.

And i propose that a if a fmc is swooping gliding or other, a FMC is still described as 'moving like' so its current state doesnt matter

col_impact wrote:
Even in your definition, there is merely the announcement of a state that is already in existence.

The definition says "beginning of". It's starts when declared. The rules follow this (for example a charge starts when declared, not before). If you wish to claim otherwise, you'll need to prove it was in a Flight Mode prior to it being declared. A rules quote will be required.

There is indeed no change of state happening. No choice is being made. The player is declaring that the FMC is in Gliding or Swooping mode for the game state. There is no language to indicate a change has been made from a nonGliding or nonSwooping state, merely that a statement to the factuality of Swooping or Gliding is being announced.

Its the begining of a state. Previous state is not important. You're declaring a state.

The burden on you is to show how a choice is being made that is changing the state of affairs from a nonSwooping, nonGliding mode to a Swooping or Gliding one.

Previous state doesn't matter. You're declaring then begining of a state. There are two. How you intend to declare one of two without choosing is a mystery known only to you, and one that doesn't effect this debate.

Can you prove it was in a Flight Mode prior to a Flight Mode being declared?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaJeel wrote:
2) An FMC is described as 'moving like' a jump monstrous creature

Please just tell me in as simple and clear a manner as possible siting rules that the above two points are incorrect

It's the Swooping and Gliding rules that describe it as this, correct?
If you're not allowed to use those rules, how can you use those rules?

Sajeel:
a FMC is only described as "moving like" a jump monstrous creature when it is swooping or gliding. If you can prove that it can be in a state where it is not swooping or gliding (like I have above) then there IS a time when it is NOT described as "moving like" a jump monstrous creature. So it's current mode does, indeed, matter.

Regardless of its Flight mode, the following statement is true:
A FMC is described as moving "like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
I guess this is what my problem is,I am reading it like this.

If within a unit (FMC) is described as "moving like a jump unit" it gains the rules of a jump unit

Within FMC, FMCs are described as 'moving like a jump unit' therefore they gain the rules of a jump unit

Please disprove the above statement or show how it is a fallacy.
Understand I 100% understand what Grendel is saying, the above statement is the only thing that is preventing me from 100% agreeing with him

SaJeel wrote:
Regardless of its Flight mode, the following statement is true:
A FMC is described as moving "like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

If you're not Swooping, and not Gliding, can you make this statement without reference to these two rules?

That is incorrect. It is not "regardless of it's current mode".
If it is gliding, it moves like a JMC
If it is swooping, it moves like a JMC
If it is not, then it does not move like a JMC

 grendel083 wrote:

SaJeel wrote:
Regardless of its Flight mode, the following statement is true:
A FMC is described as moving "like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

If you're not Swooping, and not Gliding, can you make this statement without reference to these two rules?

Those two rules belong to the FMC tho



Wait i gots it!
The key to your argument lies in the the wording for gliding and swooping. I can run through the rules and reach a point where i never read the statement "like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Yeah. Just because it can be described as moving like a JMC at two points in time doesn't mean that it moves as a JMC at ALL points in time. So it only has access to the JMC rules while it is moving like a JMC (either Swooping or Gliding). For instance, consider the following:

- I do not move my FMC, and so do not declare Gliding or Swooping.
- During my opponent's turn the FMC fails a leadership test and must fall back.
- I do not reference the rules for Swooping, since he is not Swooping. I do not reference the rules for Gliding, since he is not Gliding. What I am told is that he is a Monstrous Creature, and so he falls back like a monstrous creature. 2D6" Fall back instead of 3D6" fall back.

Let me break it down very clearly

I want to deepstrike my Hive Tyrant
So i start reading the rules
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding" it isnt so I cant continue applying that rule
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping", It isnt so i cant contunue applying that rule either
When a FMC is in reserves i cannot reach the statement " it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature"
RAW i now agree with grendel an Bojazz
And thats a nifty trick Bojazz,

Another point that kinda backs this up is the FMCs in the Daemons book have Deepstrike listed as a special rule

The real key to this is that the rules ask "if it is gliding or swooping" it doesnt just state that gliding and swooping are rules that the FMC has.

It's important to note that I HOUSE RULE it to allow FMCs to deep strike at the beginning of the game. This situation is a timing technicality. For instance if the FMC leaves combat airspace while swooping, he is specifically disallowed changing flight modes while he is in reserves meaning he MUST still be swooping. So he can deep strike back in from Ongoing reserves. Because of this inconsistency, I allow my opponents to Deep Strike their FMCs at the beginning of the game. But it is a House Rule, and this forum is dedicated to finding out RAW.

Bojazz wrote:
It's important to note that I HOUSE RULE it to allow FMCs to deep strike at the beginning of the game. This situation is a timing technicality. For instance if the FMC leaves combat airspace while swooping, he is specifically disallowed changing flight modes while he is in reserves meaning he MUST still be swooping. So he can deep strike back in from Ongoing reserves. Because of this inconsistency, I allow my opponents to Deep Strike their FMCs at the beginning of the game. But it is a House Rule, and this forum is dedicated to finding out RAW.

Can you quote some rules for allowing a unit to Deep Strike from Ongoing Reserves? I didn't think this was possible for a FMC.

It's not possible RAW, and it doesn't make much sense to house rule it, even though you're free to play whatever rules you like.

- In order to enter Ongoing reserves it must move off the table via swooping.
- While in ongoing reserves it is Disallowed from changing flight modes. No Longer swooping would be changing it, so it MUST still be in swooping mode.
- While in swooping mode it moves like a JMC, and so gains the deep strike special rule.
This can be found under the "Leaving Combat Airspace" section on p69.

Bojazz wrote:
- In order to enter Ongoing reserves it must move off the table via swooping.
- While in ongoing reserves it is Disallowed from changing flight modes. No Longer swooping would be changing it, so it MUST still be in swooping mode.
- While in swooping mode it moves like a JMC, and so gains the deep strike special rule.

And where is the link between 'deep strike' and 'ongoing reserves'? From my reading of the BRB, 'deep strike reserves' is a totally different form of reserves from 'ongoing reserves'.

Bojazz wrote:
- In order to enter Ongoing reserves it must move off the table via swooping.
- While in ongoing reserves it is Disallowed from changing flight modes. No Longer swooping would be changing it, so it MUST still be in swooping mode.
- While in swooping mode it moves like a JMC, and so gains the deep strike special rule.

It's also disallowed from moving like a Jump unit, and therefore doesn't get the DS USR ?

Why don't you just let it go. it was never meant to be.

Wait so..... I haven't heard this before, are you not allowed to deep strike from ongoing reserves whatsoever? Man, that makes swooping hawks a LOT less effective if that's true. Can someone link me to a thread discussing this? I'd like to learn.

EDIT
Upon looking at Ongoing Reserve, it describes itself as "a unit entering reserves partway through the game". So Ongoing reserve IS indeed reserve.

If they are separate that means my swooping hawks could enter play from ongoing reserve and skyleap off the same turn, since it is worded "This (a skyleap) cannot be done in the same turn that the unit arrives from Reserve." If Ongoing Reserve is separate from Reserve, then this entire line of the special rule is only referring to the first turn of the game...

Zimko "Deep Strike Reserve" is not actually a different thing. In order to Deep Strike you must have started the game "in reserve" and told your opponent that they're going to deep strike, which is "sometimes referred to as deep strike reserve".

If my swooping hawks begin the game in reserve and I announce they're deep striking and then enter reserve throughout the game (referred to as ongoing reserve) via skyleap, they can then deep strike again.


Why would it be different for a FMC that is in swooping mode? They are described as moving like JMCs (granting them the deep strike special rule), and are specifically disallowed from changing this.

(lots of spelling edits)

There was a thread on this here... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614219.page

It's a little confusing but basicly FMC can not Deep Strike from ongoing reserves since RAW they were not held in Deep Strike Reserves at the start of the game. Swoopings Hawks however typically are held in deep strike reserves and thus can deep strike during the game.

Edit: However, as like most of these kinds of threads, it ended with 'the rules on this aren't clear so lets move on'. So interpret how you wish.

 grendel083 wrote:
[]Two modes, show me a rule that proves either are used while it is in Reserve. The triggers for these rules are layed out, Reserve isn't one of them

So you concede now that there is no third mode. Good. Now show how a FMC can move without being described as Jump.

Bojazz wrote:
Col Impact, I've already shown that you can be in a non-gliding, non-swooping state on the previous page. I also referenced that post AGAIN on the previous page last time you asked for proof. Do you have me on ignore or something? or are you just not reading all the posts?

edit for elaboration so people don't have to go scrolling through pages:
- I move my FMC and declare that it is Gliding until the beginning of its next turn.
- Next turn I do not move the FMC, and therefore cannot declare Swooping or Gliding.
- He is no longer swooping or gliding for an entire turn and is treated as a regular MC.

Technically, EVERY time you announce Swooping/Gliding, you are changing his state from a non-gliding non-swooping state because the previous movement mode's effects END at the beginning of your turn.

If this line of reasoning were correct, an FMC could go from swooping one turn directly to charging the next turn, correct?

turn 1 swoop. choose not to move turn 2 so MC mode. turn 2 assault in MC mode.

Since you only declare as you move and charging is moving, you would have to declare swooping or gliding when you make the charge move. It would have to be gliding though since you would be disallowed from charging if you chose Swooping.

Same goes with the falling back, however fall back distance is decided BEFORE you make the fall back move, so you'd still fall back 2D6". Although I suppose you could choose Swooping and not fall back at all.

yay for broken rules!

Also Zimko, you are absolutely correct. Since a FMC could not be declared as deep striking at the beginning of the game, it cannot deep strike subsequently in the game regardless of whether or not it has the rule. I will have to change my house rule accordingly. Thanks for the linked thread!

col_impact wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
Col Impact, I've already shown that you can be in a non-gliding, non-swooping state on the previous page. I also referenced that post AGAIN on the previous page last time you asked for proof. Do you have me on ignore or something? or are you just not reading all the posts?

edit for elaboration so people don't have to go scrolling through pages:
- I move my FMC and declare that it is Gliding until the beginning of its next turn.
- Next turn I do not move the FMC, and therefore cannot declare Swooping or Gliding.
- He is no longer swooping or gliding for an entire turn and is treated as a regular MC.

Technically, EVERY time you announce Swooping/Gliding, you are changing his state from a non-gliding non-swooping state because the previous movement mode's effects END at the beginning of your turn.

If this line of reasoning were correct, an FMC could go from swooping one turn directly to charging the next turn, correct?

turn 1 swoop. choose not to move turn 2 so MC mode. turn 2 assault in MC mode.

Bojazz's FMCs just got alot more powerful. Sadly this interpretation ignores the requirement that you "must" declare a movement mode at the start of its move.

Fragile - how does it ignore that? If I don't move the FMC, it does not have a "start of it's move". it does not move at all. so there is nothing to declare. The instant it moves (fall back, charge, etc) I must declare it. If the rule said I had to declare at the start of the movement phase then you would be correct. however, it does not.

Bojazz wrote:
Since you only declare as you move and charging is moving,

Charging is not Moving. They are two separate functions.

you would have to declare swooping or gliding when you make the charge move. It would have to be gliding though since you would be disallowed from charging if you chose Swooping.

You claim there is a third movement mode though. So there is no restriction from swooping. Your being hypocritical otherwise.

Same goes with the falling back, however fall back distance is decided BEFORE you make the fall back move, so you'd still fall back 2D6". Although I suppose you could choose Swooping and not fall back at all.

yay for broken rules!!

The rules are not broken. Your interpretation is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bojazz wrote:
Fragile - how does it ignore that? If I don't move the FMC, it does not have a "start of it's move". it does not move at all. so there is nothing to declare. The instant it moves (fall back, charge, etc) I must declare it. If the rule said I had to declare at the start of the movement phase then you would be correct. however, it does not.

Show me permission to not move a Swooping FMC.