Ok, I've been running into the following unit and I am having an insanely difficult time dealing with it with my GKs.

2 Ironhands Chapter Masters on bikes. One with the Shield Eternal, one with regular SS, both with TH and Artificer Armor.

The above guys are stuck in a Ravenwing Command squad along with a DA Librarian on a bike.

The two chapter masters are always up front and have each other be the closest model so they can LoS to each other. They have IWND and FnP from the Ravenwing Apothecary, and even if I kill the Apothecary they still have 6+ FnP for being Ironhands.

The only solution I can come up with, that has a realistic chance of working, is just to run as many GK librarians as possible and hope for multiple VoD so I can hammer them with a bunch of StrD templates and pin them in place with the impassable terrain a Vortex creates.

Forfeit and play a new opponent?

You could ally in your own chapter master(s) and do a similar thing with a unit of gk terminators...cept you have sanctuary. 2++ stormshields gogogo

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ok, I've been running into the following unit and I am having an insanely difficult time dealing with it with my GKs.

2 Ironhands Chapter Masters on bikes. One with the Shield Eternal, one with regular SS, both with TH and Artificer Armor.

The above guys are stuck in a Ravenwing Command squad along with a DA Librarian on a bike.

The two chapter masters are always up front and have each other be the closest model so they can LoS to each other. They have IWND and FnP from the Ravenwing Apothecary, and even if I kill the Apothecary they still have 6+ FnP for being Ironhands.

The only solution I can come up with, that has a realistic chance of working, is just to run as many GK librarians as possible and hope for multiple VoD so I can hammer them with a bunch of StrD templates and pin them in place with the impassable terrain a Vortex creates.

Do those guys have Hit and Run? (I'm not that familiar with DA) If so, try to hit the unit from behind to kill off the DA until they lose hit and run. Neither of the Chaptermasters has that many attacks, you might be able to tarpit them. (If you have Inquisition or SoB allies Rerollable 3++ works pretty well).

Really, either way, hit the unit from behind and make them lose the extra guys. Other than the librarian who can also LOS! they should be easier to deal with.

Or what I would probably end up doing is take an army of cheaper units, accept that one will die each turn and try to wipe out the rest of his forces and score objectives. His deathstar can't be everywhere at once and it's got to be what like, half his army pointswise?

This is very simple.
Stomp attacks.

Or take my previous idea of rerollable 3++, make it 2++ with sanctuary and take enough psykers to fish for invisibilty, see how fun it is for your friend to have to roll a 6 in order to try to force you to roll two 1s just so he can remove a 15 point model.

Hang out at Reece's store and complain about them until he changes the rules of 40k with a "vote" and presto the problem is solved.

Demolisher Cannon.

If that doesn't work, use more Demolisher Cannon.

Ally in Space Wolves, use any Helfrost weapon equipped units you can, and use the 'Sequencing' rule (BRB pg 17) to resolve the Helfrost effect before he can resolve any other effects/saves. Throw in the 'Battle of Keylek' Legacy of Glory (IA2) to negate Jinks.

"Oh yeah, you shrugged off the wound...Too bad you were a popsicle before that happened..."

Just play around it. 2 CM on bikes cost like 500 pts alone.

Verviedi wrote:
Demolisher Cannon.

If that doesn't work, use more Demolisher Cannon.

This. Multiple Demolisher Cannons have never not solved my problems.

Don't Grey Knights have a lot of Instant Death available to them at range and in melee? Use some of that. It negates FNP and IWND doesn't apply if the model is dead.

Is your opponent avoiding you and shooting or using psychic powers? Or are they getting into close combat? If you can get close to them, some dreadknights would help. If the issue is getting close, send some of the teleporting GK, interceptors are they? Drop some interceptors behind them, one with an incinerator perhaps. Dealing with the librarian is important, especially if he gets a destruction focused power.

With a tamp used to flatten soil.

Farsight bomb. Farsight, a barebones buffcommander, and 7 dual plasma bodyguards is only a bit over 700 pts. Deep strike and blast away.

Is tarpit an option? Or do they have hit and run

DarthDiggler wrote:
Hang out at Reece's store and complain about them until he changes the rules of 40k with a "vote" and presto the problem is solved.

Was someone going to run an invisibility deathstar list at LVO?

Take Draigo and a sizeable unit of Paladins, and hit them with hammers. Also, take Dreadknights, and hit them with really big swords. If they run from you, shoot them a bunch.

Granted, positioning will be important, but Paladins have good shooting and Dreadknights are fast enough to get around the Chapter Masters and they'll drop bikes. Without knowing the rest of your opponent's list, it's hard to say what else you'll need to deal with though. Grey Knights aren't really a powerhouse right now.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Hang out at Reece's store and complain about them until he changes the rules of 40k with a "vote" and presto the problem is solved.

Awww, did your piddly widdly little invisibility get nerfed...

Weight of fire. T5? Who cares? Unload on the unit with enough firepower to force failed saves.

So that unit has 8 wounds at T5 2+/3++, 7 wounds at 3+ presumably and FnP

So at BS4, that would take 6 * 8 + 7 * 3 = 69 * 2.25 (BS4, FnP) = 155ish bolter shots. (Granted if you can drop the apothecary first that's more like 100.)

Er... I left out the to wound roll. That's 300-450 bolter shots to bring down that unit. LOL.

The solution to this and every other elite infantry problem:

 changerofways wrote:
Is tarpit an option? Or do they have hit and run

Ravenwing have hit and run.

Stomp attacks should do it, if you have a model which will live long enough to stomp (with 10 WS5 thunder hammer attacks on the charge, I don't trust a knight to do so).

To be fair, this is a unit which is of titan-level points value; it's hardly unreasonable to use a titan on it!


Another option to dealing with this kind of thing: Stormravens. I don't suggest they can necessarily kill it, but just get into the stormravens and make rude gestures at them from low altitude where they can't do anything to hurt you.

Allied Dark Eldar. 12x BS4 4+ Poison Shots per Venom solves all TO-based unit problems.

Demolisher Cannon vs Eternal Warrior and a 3++? So If you don't scatter off you've got a 5/6 chance of wounding followed by a 1/3 of getting through his save, he then has a 1/3 chance of regenerating that wound back. Yeah good luck.

My friend runs something similar but has one with Gorgon's Chains and one with Shield Eternal. Unfortunately I don't play my Grey Knights much so I can't give you any pointers of my own :( My Nids deal with them just fine though!

I do like the idea of allying in a couple of your own IH CMs with 2 GK Libbys and just cheesing it with sanctuary. Imperial Knights with the D and Stomp attacks are pretty good at killing them too.

Unfortunately I don't have any Str10 shooting.

This unit tends to get into melee, after shooting me with Plasma talons and a Stasis shell, and if its going poorly then they hit and run away. But it never goes poorly.

If they attack a Dreadknight, the guy with the Shield Eternal challenges and I flail uselessly against him while everyone gets to still hit the DK.


The only time I actually killed this unit was with my Imperial Knight rolling a 6 on the stomp, but they killed the knight at the same time. And this was after they had already ravaged 1 Dreadknight and 9/10 of a terminator squad. Fortunately I was able to Gate out of melee and save my squad and my Warlord.

I guess I could try swapping my heavy incinerators on my DKs for heavy psylincers. I can easily pop to where the EW guy isn't the closest.

As for the rest of the list these guys are in. Its basically 3 scout squads in LSS, a DA Vet squad with 5 meltas in a pod, and 2 TFCs. Due to the missions we use(they're custom missions) I usually cannot ignore this unit and just kill everything else.

Does he bring the rest of the stuff needed to take those two CM?

As with alot of suppliments you cannot take relics from both if its within the same detachment.

Also a fun one would be a macro cannon. with a vindicare .

Oh and for good messure hit them with enfeeble.

I almost ran an Aquila Strongpoint, but its a lot of points.

Play with MSU

3 squads of 3 acolytes + 25 point inquisitor * X where X is the number you can fit into the points value of the game.

Well it also depends on the rest of his lists.

we know the bomb but what support does he have?

Hit it with 3 dreadknights. Youll Win.

Stormraven is a bad idea. Those RW Command bikers have TL plasma talons that can glance or pen that flyer to death before you could gesture enough to hurt their feelings.

Play to the weaknesses of the unit.

IH bikes still have to take dangerous terrain tests, and there should be plenty of difficult terrain on the field to cause them to make those rolls. Also, with IH bikes, there's no bonus to Jink saves. With 5+ cover or invul saves, and such low armor saves (2+) grav-guns will work wonders without too much spammage.

As for the DA they are stuck in, they don't have SS, and only FNP to keep them alive.

I would say a Chapter Master's special weapon would do nicely in this situation. Use Orbital bombardment to nuke them before they can get into the RW Command Squad for FNP.

Wait i thought they where using RW bikes not IH ones

its a RW unit with IH CMs

Best non imperium option i can think of would be all the hell drakes all the time.

position your self so that you kill regular chumps first.
Then onces the space is cleared out chuck as many shots as you can into it.

Psychic Shriek!

Shreks through invul saves is hard.
that and at LD10 at best you will do a few wounds.

Anggrath pitties the poor loyalists and their motor-toys.

lel and they're probably about even in points cost. Too bad you can't take Anggrath until Apoc sized games anyway :(

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ok, I've been running into the following unit and I am having an insanely difficult time dealing with it with my GKs.

2 Ironhands Chapter Masters on bikes. One with the Shield Eternal, one with regular SS, both with TH and Artificer Armor.

The above guys are stuck in a Ravenwing Command squad along with a DA Librarian on a bike.

The two chapter masters are always up front and have each other be the closest model so they can LoS to each other. They have IWND and FnP from the Ravenwing Apothecary, and even if I kill the Apothecary they still have 6+ FnP for being Ironhands.

The only solution I can come up with, that has a realistic chance of working, is just to run as many GK librarians as possible and hope for multiple VoD so I can hammer them with a bunch of StrD templates and pin them in place with the impassable terrain a Vortex creates.

why not just get behind them and in front of them. Now their leaders cant do anything to save their buddies in the back.

You also could chuck something equally silly like a unit of THSS BA terminators with an attached IG Priest and a GK Lib for 2++ Rerollables in combat.

You need a lots of infantries, lots of shootings and play the dice luck.

Also a purifier spam could be beneficial. That would be a lot of hits to shirk off. especially if you put two full combat squaded squads there. That would be essentially 8d6 attacks, math hammer says that is should at least be 28-32 attacks. even if you dont kill both chapter masters it will kill a lot in the unit.

Ally in inquisitiors and henchmen. At fewer points a squad of crusaders/DCA/priests etc will wreck this. Shove them in a Landraider and lols. Fits with your GK theme too.

Grey Knights all the way....
w Nemesis Dreadknight w psilencers.. 12 str 4 shots each with instadeath...

Also... shunt in and use your awesome OTHER force weapon (see sword) and smash :-)

PEW PEWY PEW PEW! GRAAAHHH SMASH OH NOOO!

 Lobukia wrote:
Ally in inquisitiors and henchmen. At fewer points a squad of crusaders/DCA/priests etc will wreck this. Shove them in a Landraider and lols. Fits with your GK theme too.

Wait, are DCA PS only now, cause if so, nm.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Due to the missions we use(they're custom missions) I usually cannot ignore this unit and just kill everything else.

Well there's your problem. Don't play missions that are tailored to your opponent's strengths and give them a huge advantage.

If you cannot kill them, you can denied him all mouvement.

You need thudd guns, griffons, basilisks, medusas, bombards, snipers, mortars, every thing that made him go to ground or pinning test. What ever he gots FNP or 2++ save, if he doesn't move, is not dangerous

I believe something in there makes it fearless. Oh also i though bikes cant get pinned ether. (something about never being able to GTG or something) i might be wrong

Vortex of doom? If you roll a 6 to wound he can kiss his cm's goodbye

RoF weapons from behind. Engage the unit at +1" and prevent movement, force a super-short ranged charge (don't assault, just move to within +1").

Whilst killing models is ideal, denying movement & good targets is nearly as good for such a point dense unit. Take adventure of the non jetbike/jump infantry status.

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Vortex of doom? If you roll a 6 to wound he can kiss his cm's goodbye

Or he chucks a RW chump into to save his life

Conscripts with a priest or comissar. For 1/3 the points of his squad you're tarpitting him the whole game. And even pulling a couple of wounds in the process.

My go-to answer for Deathstars is the Masque of Slaanesh.
The Masque, add in 2 units of horrors so you can summon in a new unit every turn to feed to the enemy if needed. 300pts max, and it takes 1000pts out of the game.

Yep, Masque with "dance of caging" is the ultimate "F you" to all melee deathstars, good luck trying to assault anything when you movement and assault distances are mere D3s

The problem is you need to protect him from shooting somehow, as he is quite fragile. (T3 2W with 5++ rerollable is NOT amazing, even the deathstart itself might shot it down!)

Sadly GK without ally is just not very good.

The bikestar is a competitive build. People also use bikes and thunderwolfs together.

GK need a ally to compete. One of the few good armies is the GK centurionstar. They kill that star easy if you get ignore cover from divination. Even without it, it's hard for the bikestar. Use gate to get to the other side of the star than the tanking chapter masters.

So; draigo, librarian, a troop, 2 dreadknights, tiggy, scouts and cents.

Tyfus wrote:
Sadly GK without ally is just not very good.

The bikestar is a competitive build. People also use bikes and thunderwolfs together.

GK need a ally to compete. One of the few good armies is the GK centurionstar. They kill that star easy if you get ignore cover from divination. Even without it, it's hard for the bikestar. Use gate to get to the other side of the star than the tanking chapter masters.

So; draigo, librarian, a troop, 2 dreadknights, tiggy, scouts and cents.

What are you talking about? GKs are really competitive on their own with their annoying alpha strike and cheesy dreadknights, allies just make them even cheesier and extremely OP.

SGTPozy wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Sadly GK without ally is just not very good.

The bikestar is a competitive build. People also use bikes and thunderwolfs together.

GK need a ally to compete. One of the few good armies is the GK centurionstar. They kill that star easy if you get ignore cover from divination. Even without it, it's hard for the bikestar. Use gate to get to the other side of the star than the tanking chapter masters.

So; draigo, librarian, a troop, 2 dreadknights, tiggy, scouts and cents.

What are you talking about? GKs are really competitive on their own with their annoying alpha strike and cheesy dreadknights, allies just make them even cheesier and extremely OP.

Nope i disagree. It's only a few good units in the codex and not enough for pure GK-army. Mind you i'm talking about competitive play in GT. For funny games or pick-up games everything goes.

There has been a lot of big/medium GT now. I don't know of a single of those GTs where pure GK has placed well. There is however some GTs where GK centurionstar has placed good among top 10. Nova open invitaional was won by GK centurionstar. Pure GK is dead in competitive play IMO.

Since my main army is GK i would prefered this was not true.

Edit: and a centurionstar is hardly more cheesy than a fully kitted bikestar as the OP mentioned. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight !

So its pretty much any other "pure" army that does not rely on a one-trick-pony of an OP unit. your point?

When you got the option to mix-and-match or stick to a single type, the mix will be superior by default unless it carries such penalties it just not worth it, and its true in EVERY system.

The more sources you use, by default you get more power, as you cherry pick the best bits available from each one.

Agreed. I honestly cant see how anyone can think that Mono GK is OP in any way. Dreadknights are rough, but everything else is middling at best. The AP3 force swords work well against character and multi wound MC's but really are basically power weapons against 1 wound models. also with the new psyker rules it is harder to allocate that 1 point per squad for force. Adding in allies (specifically for Drop Pods) does make it exponentially stronger, but that is true of most armies. look at eldar / tau or Chaos/ daemons or IG and SM or IG and Chaos. using multiple codecies allow you to plug up gaps on mono codex armies.

Get behind them or swamp them in so many bodies that they can't hit and run because there's no avenue to flee through.

 Grey Templar wrote:

If they attack a Dreadknight, the guy with the Shield Eternal challenges and I flail uselessly against him while everyone gets to still hit the DK.

I don't have any better advice than what has been offered so far. I just want to make sure this scenario is being played correctly. The NDK does not have the Character type. He cannot issue nor accept challenges.
Not sure if this helps in that situation. Maybe the NDK takes out 3-4 bodyguards and then it'll be easier for him to survive. Although it would be better if the NDK assaulted along with another unit of Terminators or something. At that points level you should really be able to double-team him, which is always something that should be considered over 1v1 matchups. No 2 units exist in a vacuum; use all the units you brought to the table.

 SkrawnyNob wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

If they attack a Dreadknight, the guy with the Shield Eternal challenges and I flail uselessly against him while everyone gets to still hit the DK.

I don't have any better advice than what has been offered so far. I just want to make sure this scenario is being played correctly. The NDK does not have the Character type. He cannot issue nor accept challenges.
Not sure if this helps in that situation. Maybe the NDK takes out 3-4 bodyguards and then it'll be easier for him to survive. Although it would be better if the NDK assaulted along with another unit of Terminators or something. At that points level you should really be able to double-team him, which is always something that should be considered over 1v1 matchups. No 2 units exist in a vacuum; use all the units you brought to the table.

To add to it as well actually.

If you are charging in first make sure to hit a unit of regular doods instead of the CM. they will have to pile in at I1 giving you a chance to take out a bunch of the body guards.

 SkrawnyNob wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

If they attack a Dreadknight, the guy with the Shield Eternal challenges and I flail uselessly against him while everyone gets to still hit the DK.

I don't have any better advice than what has been offered so far. I just want to make sure this scenario is being played correctly. The NDK does not have the Character type. He cannot issue nor accept challenges.
Not sure if this helps in that situation. Maybe the NDK takes out 3-4 bodyguards and then it'll be easier for him to survive. Although it would be better if the NDK assaulted along with another unit of Terminators or something. At that points level you should really be able to double-team him, which is always something that should be considered over 1v1 matchups. No 2 units exist in a vacuum; use all the units you brought to the table.

Not correct. The nemesis dreadknight does indeed have character, so challenge is a issue. It was the same in the last edtion codex. I have had great fun with this against CSM who must accept. But in this case it makes its possible for the chapter master with eternal warrior to tank out a dreadknight, Good luck against WSxxx, 4 wounds 3+ save, feel no pain and i will not die....

Most bikestars over here has gravguns. The dreadknights are usually dead before they get into CC. Bikes with gravguns out-treath dreadknights.

 Grey Templar wrote:

As for the rest of the list these guys are in. Its basically 3 scout squads in LSS, a DA Vet squad with 5 meltas in a pod, and 2 TFCs. Due to the missions we use(they're custom missions) I usually cannot ignore this unit and just kill everything else.

Try changing the missions up. Maelstrom missions for example will make life hard on his army. Unfortunately they aren't really friendly to GK lists either.

Alternately your gonna need allies. Theres plenty of options but I would lean towards something that ignores cover and has mobility. One of the best counters would likely be draigo + cents. Roll up perfect timing and remove his hit and run bunker then his CMs. With 2 libbys the chances are good you will get invis too. Wish him good luck trying to beat invisible draigo cents.

Eldar Lynx, Revenant. scorpion or cobra. Problem solved. Then laugh at him since there is only one Chapter master per chapter and he is playing it wrong.

Col. Dash wrote:
Eldar Lynx, Revenant. scorpion or cobra. Problem solved. Then laugh at him since there is only one Chapter master per chapter and he is playing it wrong.

You can have as many number of chapter masters as you want. there is no rules bearing on #

Fluff wise they can be some kinda outstanding captain.

If the CM challenges how can the other guys in his unit hit the DK. Doesn't the Challenge prevent that?

Also another option would be to take a vindicare assassin his shield breaker round will punch through that invuln save. and the turbo penetrator round will lay on multiple wounds.

 Desubot wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
Eldar Lynx, Revenant. scorpion or cobra. Problem solved. Then laugh at him since there is only one Chapter master per chapter and he is playing it wrong.

You can have as many number of chapter masters as you want. there is no rules bearing on #

Fluff wise they can be some kinda outstanding captain.

Or two successor chapters with the same tactics.

 GKTiberius wrote:
If the CM challenges how can the other guys in his unit hit the DK. Doesn't the Challenge prevent that?

Also another option would be to take a vindicare assassin his shield breaker round will punch through that invuln save. and the turbo penetrator round will lay on multiple wounds.

7th no more hiding.

Vindicare changed.

you gotta catch up with the times

 GKTiberius wrote:
If the CM challenges how can the other guys in his unit hit the DK. Doesn't the Challenge prevent that?

Not anymore, unless you have something else in that fight to soak up the unit's wounds. Although getting his EW CM in a challenge is a good way to make wounds go to the squishier guys.

Also another option would be to take a vindicare assassin his shield breaker round will punch through that invuln save. and the turbo penetrator round will lay on multiple wounds.

The Vindecare is awful against this unit unless you count the first shot with which you murder the apothecary or have loaded dice.

Except he will overkill the squisher guy, and the wounds will spill over to the rest of the unit.

And the vindi is really there to nuke the single-wound buffers like the apoth, not to get the 3++ dudes.

Yeah, he only has a 1 in 4 chance of stripping a wound from an IC with an invuln save 1 in 6 w FNP, but a non character with no save is easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I'm thinking the simplest might be an Ordo Xenos inquisitor or biomancy psyker with Enfeeble + some Thunderhammers. The problem is getting him to accept the challenge with his EW CM so that the hammers can remove the other guys. It should only take about 9 wounds to clean out the squad while they're at T4, and the best part is FNP wouldn't save them. Or attack with multiple AP3 or better force weapons at the same time. ID negates FNP and the makes using the second CM's 3++ risky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and challenges are a must because otherwise the EW can take all the hits.

Tyfus wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Sadly GK without ally is just not very good.

The bikestar is a competitive build. People also use bikes and thunderwolfs together.

GK need a ally to compete. One of the few good armies is the GK centurionstar. They kill that star easy if you get ignore cover from divination. Even without it, it's hard for the bikestar. Use gate to get to the other side of the star than the tanking chapter masters.

So; draigo, librarian, a troop, 2 dreadknights, tiggy, scouts and cents.

What are you talking about? GKs are really competitive on their own with their annoying alpha strike and cheesy dreadknights, allies just make them even cheesier and extremely OP.

Nope i disagree. It's only a few good units in the codex and not enough for pure GK-army. Mind you i'm talking about competitive play in GT. For funny games or pick-up games everything goes.

There has been a lot of big/medium GT now. I don't know of a single of those GTs where pure GK has placed well. There is however some GTs where GK centurionstar has placed good among top 10. Nova open invitaional was won by GK centurionstar. Pure GK is dead in competitive play IMO.

Since my main army is GK i would prefered this was not true.

Edit: and a centurionstar is hardly more cheesy than a fully kitted bikestar as the OP mentioned. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight !

All of your units are good, but they're just overshadowed by the Dreadknight as it is too cheesy. Just like with Tyranids, the Hive Tyrant overshadows everything.
You get AP3 and Brotherhood of Psykers for hardly any points. Your Terminators are one of the best in the game; being ridiculously cheap for what they do.
You can combat squad units to double up on psychic dice, giving FOUR DICE for combat squading Purifiers. Now tell me how that's not broken.

Compare your codex to many other codices, and even without allies, you will have a good chance of winning.
In my gaming group, when I play Tau against CSM, my win rate is 50%. Now compare when the same CSM player goes against GK, the GK player has won 5/6 games.
Is that balanced? No.
Note: this was competitive play.

With all the complaints about Tau (in general, not in this thread) you'd expect them to win 90% of games, and tell me where Tau come in these tournaments. Do any lists come in the top 10?

IoM in 7th is so cheesy, far more so than Taudar in 6th, but no one cares as its IoM who is good.

Oh I am aware the rules allow for it. I said it in jest although in the spirit of the game it is poor sportsmanship to do something cheesy like that, but then again, there is a reason I do not play WAAC players or competitively anymore

The easy way to beat that is with a sledgehammer....

Issodon as warlord. 50 conscripts with priest. 50 guardsmen with issodon +5 power axes. Infiltrate both units 18" away from the star, scout the guardsmen forward a further 6". Make sure the units are spread in a wide cresent around the star. One unit is fearless the other has ATSKNF. First he has to eat through 53 wounds which are also hitting back with 15 st4 ap2 attacks, so will be smashing down some of the bikes in combat. When he finally munches through this unit (or they back off due to ATSKNF, he then has to chew through the fearless conscripts.

Can't move around 102 bodies in a cresent around you who are in your face turn 1.

SGTPozy wrote:

Tyfus wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Sadly GK without ally is just not very good.

The bikestar is a competitive build. People also use bikes and thunderwolfs together.

GK need a ally to compete. One of the few good armies is the GK centurionstar. They kill that star easy if you get ignore cover from divination. Even without it, it's hard for the bikestar. Use gate to get to the other side of the star than the tanking chapter masters.

So; draigo, librarian, a troop, 2 dreadknights, tiggy, scouts and cents.

What are you talking about? GKs are really competitive on their own with their annoying alpha strike and cheesy dreadknights, allies just make them even cheesier and extremely OP.

Nope i disagree. It's only a few good units in the codex and not enough for pure GK-army. Mind you i'm talking about competitive play in GT. For funny games or pick-up games everything goes.

There has been a lot of big/medium GT now. I don't know of a single of those GTs where pure GK has placed well. There is however some GTs where GK centurionstar has placed good among top 10. Nova open invitaional was won by GK centurionstar. Pure GK is dead in competitive play IMO.

Since my main army is GK i would prefered this was not true.

Edit: and a centurionstar is hardly more cheesy than a fully kitted bikestar as the OP mentioned. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight !

All of your units are good, but they're just overshadowed by the Dreadknight as it is too cheesy. Just like with Tyranids, the Hive Tyrant overshadows everything.
You get AP3 and Brotherhood of Psykers for hardly any points. Your Terminators are one of the best in the game; being ridiculously cheap for what they do.
You can combat squad units to double up on psychic dice, giving FOUR DICE for combat squading Purifiers. Now tell me how that's not broken.

Compare your codex to many other codices, and even without allies, you will have a good chance of winning.
In my gaming group, when I play Tau against CSM, my win rate is 50%. Now compare when the same CSM player goes against GK, the GK player has won 5/6 games.
Is that balanced? No.
Note: this was competitive play.

With all the complaints about Tau (in general, not in this thread) you'd expect them to win 90% of games, and tell me where Tau come in these tournaments. Do any lists come in the top 10?

IoM in 7th is so cheesy, far more so than Taudar in 6th, but no one cares as its IoM who is good.

Guess we have to disagree.

It's impossible to argue against you're personal track record with GK. My own track record is not similar, and more in accordance with something you can measure: in the bigger and medium GTs pure GK is not placing good.

GK internal balance is one of the worst i can remember from GW.

The only really good units are libby and dreadknights. Draigo and purifiers are decent, but situational. Shure purifiers stats and powers are good, but they are expensive and need a delivery system.
Terminators are a little cheaper than before, but not much because the weapons you need is more expensive. The BIG problem is that termies still suck in correct meta. They don't shoot good and are slow as hell.

I wouldn't call dreadknight OP or cheesy, but good. It's almost 200 points for a standard build with teleporter, sword and incernator. He usually will have too get into cc to get his points back. With 4 wounds T6 he is not that hard to kill. Compare him to riptide or wraithknights. For their points they are better IMO.

And who are complaining about tau now ? They got nerfed good in 7.ed. Eldar and knights are what people are complaining about now.

7. ed is all about good shooting units (long range, high stength and volume of fire) and fast resilient assault units. Sadly GK is lacking here.

So, of the axes 7.5 hit, 2.5 wound. If he takes them on the storm shield, that's about .5 wounds, though you do tarpit him assuming he doesn't just shoot his way through. Assuming you can't have cover and be in his way and the librarian has Prescience, that's that unit should be able to gun down about 8-10 guardsmen? Even tactical squads will make a mess of guardsmen and all he has to do is charge you in such a way that he can hit and run towards the rest of the army. If anything allowing him to assault T1 is counter-productive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If anything, you should put the blobs behind his deathstar and use them to wreck his backfield objective campers and/or bait the deathstar into spending a turn or two running away from the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An IG blob with a priest would be great if you can remove the Ravenwing guys (so no hit and run shenanigans and a lot fewer attacks coming in at guys for whom Corvus hammers might as well all be Thunderhammers).

D Strength weapons?

The next best thing I can think of is off the board and shame them for being a series of less than kind words compensating for a lack of tactical or strategic thought. It would a moral victory however.

Honestly its fine. and some circles enjoy though and insane lists.

Honestly though this is like the only time id love to see a BUNCH of basillisks just pepper that massive blob just to bypass all the 3++s

Or that superheavy with the AP3 massive blasts that can ignore cover.

or the Tau flying one that does the same thing.

id love to see him tank that many wounds.

The problem with templates is those guys have no reason to bunch up unless you catch them right after they killed on of your units on their turn and rolled badly on the consolidation move, or if you get them to assault a vehicle.

Mavnas wrote:
The problem with templates is those guys have no reason to bunch up unless you catch them right after they killed on of your units on their turn and rolled badly on the consolidation move, or if you get them to assault a vehicle.

Well that part will depend on what kinda terrain you play on too.

Usually with big LOS blockers or impassible pieces that you can use to make bottle necks. Also leaving sacrifice units to force them to consolidate close together. even with 6" of movement they cant all get out of the way that fast.

Mavnas wrote:
So, of the axes 7.5 hit, 2.5 wound. If he takes them on the storm shield, that's about .5 wounds, though you do tarpit him assuming he doesn't just shoot his way through. Assuming you can't have cover and be in his way and the librarian has Prescience, that's that unit should be able to gun down about 8-10 guardsmen? Even tactical squads will make a mess of guardsmen and all he has to do is charge you in such a way that he can hit and run towards the rest of the army. If anything allowing him to assault T1 is counter-productive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If anything, you should put the blobs behind his deathstar and use them to wreck his backfield objective campers and/or bait the deathstar into spending a turn or two running away from the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An IG blob with a priest would be great if you can remove the Ravenwing guys (so no hit and run shenanigans and a lot fewer attacks coming in at guys for whom Corvus hammers might as well all be Thunderhammers).

The axes will get more than one round of hitting as they are not causing 53 wounds in one round. You really underestimate how difficult it is for models with 5 attacks to get rid of 102 models. Doesn't matter if they have hit and run - they simply can't go through that many bodies.

That and there is only 2 CM. there will be at least 3 axes in base with something else kill able.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
So, of the axes 7.5 hit, 2.5 wound. If he takes them on the storm shield, that's about .5 wounds, though you do tarpit him assuming he doesn't just shoot his way through. Assuming you can't have cover and be in his way and the librarian has Prescience, that's that unit should be able to gun down about 8-10 guardsmen? Even tactical squads will make a mess of guardsmen and all he has to do is charge you in such a way that he can hit and run towards the rest of the army. If anything allowing him to assault T1 is counter-productive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If anything, you should put the blobs behind his deathstar and use them to wreck his backfield objective campers and/or bait the deathstar into spending a turn or two running away from the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An IG blob with a priest would be great if you can remove the Ravenwing guys (so no hit and run shenanigans and a lot fewer attacks coming in at guys for whom Corvus hammers might as well all be Thunderhammers).

The axes will get more than one round of hitting as they are not causing 53 wounds in one round. You really underestimate how difficult it is for models with 5 attacks to get rid of 102 models. Doesn't matter if they have hit and run - they simply can't go through that many bodies.

Unless he rolls a 6 he can Hit and Run and move 3d6 away. If you charge him you can add 12" onto that. One of the axes will die in a challenge or be unable to swing because you refused it.


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 Desubot wrote:
That and there is only 2 CM. there will be at least 3 axes in base with something else kill able.

Doesn't matter does it, once the CM starts making saves he makes all of them until he dies, unless you rolled some 6s. So I guess you might get 1 kill.

It absolutely matters
The point is you are removing his Hit and run ASAP

Weight of bodies and a few Ap2-3 will help get rid of em.

And its far easier to pull those attacks off to the side to allocate them properly.

 Peregrine wrote:
The solution to this and every other elite infantry problem:

Wazzat and can the Renegade & Heretic get it too?

so this guy uses an uber cheese allied death star list. and puts together a custom mission forcing you to engage it?

the best advice I can supply man is find someone else to play against

Mavnas wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
So, of the axes 7.5 hit, 2.5 wound. If he takes them on the storm shield, that's about .5 wounds, though you do tarpit him assuming he doesn't just shoot his way through. Assuming you can't have cover and be in his way and the librarian has Prescience, that's that unit should be able to gun down about 8-10 guardsmen? Even tactical squads will make a mess of guardsmen and all he has to do is charge you in such a way that he can hit and run towards the rest of the army. If anything allowing him to assault T1 is counter-productive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If anything, you should put the blobs behind his deathstar and use them to wreck his backfield objective campers and/or bait the deathstar into spending a turn or two running away from the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An IG blob with a priest would be great if you can remove the Ravenwing guys (so no hit and run shenanigans and a lot fewer attacks coming in at guys for whom Corvus hammers might as well all be Thunderhammers).

The axes will get more than one round of hitting as they are not causing 53 wounds in one round. You really underestimate how difficult it is for models with 5 attacks to get rid of 102 models. Doesn't matter if they have hit and run - they simply can't go through that many bodies.

Unless he rolls a 6 he can Hit and Run and move 3d6 away. If you charge him you can add 12" onto that. One of the axes will die in a challenge or be unable to swing because you refused it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
That and there is only 2 CM. there will be at least 3 axes in base with something else kill able.

Doesn't matter does it, once the CM starts making saves he makes all of them until he dies, unless you rolled some 6s. So I guess you might get 1 kill.

Even if you move 3d6" away, you can't move through the unit, and if you move away there is still 102 (less casualties in a cresent around you. Also I did not count issodons power axe attacks as I assumed it would be him that would be refusing the challenge.


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The units will pin the biker unit on their back line. If you don't believe me take some proxy models and set 51 models out 18" and another 51 models 12" away from the unit in a cresent. Then try (even with hit and run) trying to get around them.

BrianDavion wrote:
so this guy uses an uber cheese allied death star list. and puts together a custom mission forcing you to engage it?

the best advice I can supply man is find someone else to play against

Nah, they're a local tournament missions.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
So, of the axes 7.5 hit, 2.5 wound. If he takes them on the storm shield, that's about .5 wounds, though you do tarpit him assuming he doesn't just shoot his way through. Assuming you can't have cover and be in his way and the librarian has Prescience, that's that unit should be able to gun down about 8-10 guardsmen? Even tactical squads will make a mess of guardsmen and all he has to do is charge you in such a way that he can hit and run towards the rest of the army. If anything allowing him to assault T1 is counter-productive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If anything, you should put the blobs behind his deathstar and use them to wreck his backfield objective campers and/or bait the deathstar into spending a turn or two running away from the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An IG blob with a priest would be great if you can remove the Ravenwing guys (so no hit and run shenanigans and a lot fewer attacks coming in at guys for whom Corvus hammers might as well all be Thunderhammers).

The axes will get more than one round of hitting as they are not causing 53 wounds in one round. You really underestimate how difficult it is for models with 5 attacks to get rid of 102 models. Doesn't matter if they have hit and run - they simply can't go through that many bodies.

Unless he rolls a 6 he can Hit and Run and move 3d6 away. If you charge him you can add 12" onto that. One of the axes will die in a challenge or be unable to swing because you refused it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
That and there is only 2 CM. there will be at least 3 axes in base with something else kill able.

Doesn't matter does it, once the CM starts making saves he makes all of them until he dies, unless you rolled some 6s. So I guess you might get 1 kill.

Even if you move 3d6" away, you can't move through the unit, and if you move away there is still 102 (less casualties in a cresent around you. Also I did not count issodons power axe attacks as I assumed it would be him that would be refusing the challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The units will pin the biker unit on their back line. If you don't believe me take some proxy models and set 51 models out 18" and another 51 models 12" away from the unit in a cresent. Then try (even with hit and run) trying to get around them.

Maybe, but like I said, bolters will punch holes in there and all you need is one 3" gap or so to Hit and Run through the unit. I don't think blobs are a bad idea, I just think you have to take out the Ravenwing guys first because he loses a lot of attacks that way. The two CMs aren't so bad by themselves vs. cheap bodies, but the bikes' bolters should remove about 8-10 models to begin with. It really depends on the other terrain, I guess.

Short Version of how to get eff up a death star.

Inquisitor 25 points
Servo Skulls 3 points each / 9 total
(reduce scatter die within 12in to 1d6)
3 Servitors w/ Plasma Cannons (Str 7 AP2) 36" range

94 points each. Throw two or three in any army.

Put them behind an Aegis line if you want.
Or one in an Imperial Bunker.

For the points he's spending on that Death Star you could probably chuck two Imperial Knights at it.

Fellblade with battle of keylek and bubblewrap

1 s8 ap3 7" blast at 70+", 2 s9 ap2 small blasts at 36" and a demolisher cannon, all ignoring cover.

Catch whats left of the CM unit with the bubblewrap and erase the rest of the army with the fellblade.

How do you have 2 str 9 AP 2 small blasts at 36"?
Laser destroyers are not blast, just ordnance

Giving suggestions outside the GK codex really isn't all that helpful. I don't play IG.

Keep it within the GK codex, Imperial Knight allies, and Vanilla marines allies. Forge World options for these groups is fair game.

A small army of vindicare assassins?

I'm assuming you want to use Grey Knights only? I would recommend Gatling Psylencers on Dreadknights, since you have no actual fast troops to hop around the board and snag objectives... Use IG tactics of huge volleys and just gib the guys out

Allied BA demolishers could work quite well as they could be given fast allowing them to maintain distance better. 3 pie plates a turn won't do much to the EW CM but will strip out the apothecary, Libbie and raven wing guys removing improved fnp and hit and run.

I've not played much 7th but characters can't tank templates can they?

 Ugly Green Trog wrote:
I've not played much 7th but characters can't tank templates can they?

Yes, they can. Unless they have the barrage special rule.

wtnind wrote:

 Ugly Green Trog wrote:
I've not played much 7th but characters can't tank templates can they?

Yes, they can. Unless they have the barrage special rule.

That's just bloody stupid, templates should never be tankable! Ah well just another "WTF GW?" moment. Where's the "cinematic" in that?

I second taking 2 imperial knights. For added effect vs invisibility you could take the knight with the sword for delicious auto hits (with more for every wound!)

 Pyeatt wrote:
I'm assuming you want to use Grey Knights only? I would recommend Gatling Psylencers on Dreadknights, since you have no actual fast troops to hop around the board and snag objectives... Use IG tactics of huge volleys and just gib the guys out

Issue being the 2 chapter masters with eternal warrior.
it will take some fenangling to get the two dreads into the right angle and at that the bikes still get there 3+ at worst a 4+ jink (IIRC possibily better). it might be better to shunt and angle some templates on them to toast the flack first. once he loses HnR its GG.

how many bloody points is this guy spending on this?!?
against a power player of this magnitude you'd be justified in taking a warhound!
I'm sure four d-weapon blast markers would spoil the party!

SirDonlad wrote:
how many bloody points is this guy spending on this?!?
against a power player of this magnitude you'd be justified in taking a warhound!
I'm sure four d-weapon blast markers would spoil the party!

Assuming a naked DA libby on bike, and a RW command squad with no toys, it's 670 pts.

Take a brass scorpion or two and see the look on his face when it either stomps, or explodes and takes his guys with it.

Taking 1-2 imperial knights wouldnt be a bad idea ... take the melta cannon and use them to tarpit the deathstar and use the rest of your GKs to play to the objectives.

 Peregrine wrote:
The solution to this and every other elite infantry problem:

lolololololololololololol.

nobody wrote:

Assuming a naked DA libby on bike, and a RW command squad with no toys, it's 670 pts.

jeez, the warhound is 750 no mater which era you play in!

better in 30k - you get an extra void shield, +1 initiative and night vision!