Angels Fury Spearhead Force

Formation:
3 tactical squads
3 stormraven gunships

Restrictions:
Each stormraven gunship must include 10 models. The sergeant of each tactical squad in this formation must take a teleport homer as a free upgrade. This formations tactical squads cannot take dedicated transports and must begin the game embarked in the stormraven gunships from this formation.

Special rules:

Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.

Spearhead strike force:
When making reserve rolls make a single roll for the entire formation, which you can choose to re-reoll. If successful, all units arrive from the formation.You can make a reserve roll for this formation from the start of turn 1.

So if I'm reading this correctly this means that you can take drop pods and have them come in first turn after your stormravens have come in and then have whatever was in the drop pod assault since the Augur triangulation special rules supercedes any of the base rules that don't allow you to assault correct?

No, because whatever is in the drop pod is arriving via the drop pod, not the deep strike rules.

Warmonger2757 wrote:
No, because whatever is in the drop pod is arriving via the drop pod, not the deep strike rules.

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods AND units embarked in them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves.

Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.

The rules for drop pod assault is clear that both the drop pod and units embarked are in Deep strike reserve. The augur triangulation rule says that any Blood Angels faction unit that arrives from deep strike reserve can assault the turn it arrives. The drop pod is also open topped allowing you to assault when you disembark from it that turn. Seems pretty clear cut that yes Blood angels can assault out of drop pods on the first turn.

Yes they were PLACED in Deep Strike Reserve, but the rule you posted States they must ARRIVE from it.

Did they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve (or disembark from a transport that did)?
Bare in mind, arriving from Deep Strike involves scattering and creating rings of models amongst other things...

yes, you can assault

This is a tough call honestly. With the fact that drop pods are open topped, it's hard to argue that dreads would not be able to assault the turn they arrive.

Hopefully there is a FAQ.

Arriving from Deep Strike doesn't exist.
They first were in Deep Strike Reserve and now they are on the board, so they arrived from Deep Strike Reserve.

So Crukks, you are right. The only reason they cannot charge after DSíng with a Drop Pod is overruled by the Formation.

RAW it looks like anything that arrives by deep strike within 12" of two of the three Tac Sergeants can assault. That would include the formation and anything else that arrives with them so long as scatter doesn't take them out of the 12" range.

Since they are very likely to be on the table T1, it looks like T1 assault is back.

RAW arriving by deepstrike reserves has to to follow the rules for deploying by deepstrike, because that is what it says to do under deep strike reserves.

in the instance of pods +marines, the marines inside never arrive by deep strike reserve because the only way to do so in the RAW is to deploy by deepstrike, which is place model, roll scatter.

the pod arrived by deep strike, the marines inside did not, as they did not follow the rules for deploying by deep strike.

the rules for vehicles and deep strike do not state any precedence for superseding the normal deploy by deepstrike rules for arriving by deepstrike.

also if they are embarked on the stormravens how you are using their ability first turn? You cannot.

stormravens are flyers. the tactical squads that can do augur transwhatever have to start onboard them. As they do not start on the table turn 1 you have to have them come in from reserves, they have a special rule that lets them do so but as per the rule for teleport homers since the homers were not on the table at the start of the turn the units that would benefit from them cannot use them until next turn.

so at best its a turn 2 assault still.

Teleport Homer
Friendly units composed entirely of models in Terminator armour do not scatter when
they Deep Strike, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the teleport homer’s
bearer. For this to work, the bearer of the teleport homer must have been on the
battlefield at the start of the turn

i always find it ironic that marine players are often the ones that try and bend or ignore the rules.

blaktoof wrote:
RAW arriving by deepstrike reserves has to to follow the rules for deploying by deepstrike, because that is what it says to do under deep strike reserves.

What is the page number?
Because my digital version does not mention anything called "arriving by deep strike reserve".

also if they are embarked on the stormravens how you are using their ability first turn? You cannot.

By using the Formation-rule, duuh.

stormravens are flyers. the tactical squads that can do augur transwhatever have to start onboard them. As they do not start on the table turn 1 you have to have them come in from reserves, they have a special rule that lets them do so but as per the rule for teleport homers since the homers were not on the table at the start of the turn the units that would benefit from them cannot use them until next turn.

so at best its a turn 2 assault still.

Friendly units composed entirely of models in Terminator armour do not scatter when
they Deep Strike, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the teleport homer’s
bearer. For this to work, the bearer of the teleport homer must have been on the
battlefield at the start of the turn

i always find it ironic that marine players are often the ones that try and bend or ignore the rules.

Read your quote.
Now read this part: "For this to work, the bearer.."
The Teleport Homer has to be on the battlefield if you want to use the rules from the Teleport Homer.
The rules from the Formation are something entirely different.

so you believe a piece of wargear that does not normally work if the model is not on the battlefield at the start of the game, should work under the same function because another special rule that uses the same wargear does not say it shouldnt work?

interesting..

but you are completely wrong.

blaktoof wrote:
RAW arriving by deepstrike reserves has to to follow the rules for deploying by deepstrike, because that is what it says to do under deep strike reserves.

in the instance of pods +marines, the marines inside never arrive by deep strike reserve because the only way to do so in the RAW is to deploy by deepstrike, which is place model, roll scatter.

the pod arrived by deep strike, the marines inside did not, as they did not follow the rules for deploying by deep strike.

the rules for vehicles and deep strike do not state any precedence for superseding the normal deploy by deepstrike rules for arriving by deepstrike.

also if they are embarked on the stormravens how you are using their ability first turn? You cannot.

stormravens are flyers. the tactical squads that can do augur transwhatever have to start onboard them. As they do not start on the table turn 1 you have to have them come in from reserves, they have a special rule that lets them do so but as per the rule for teleport homers since the homers were not on the table at the start of the turn the units that would benefit from them cannot use them until next turn.

so at best its a turn 2 assault still.

Teleport Homer
Friendly units composed entirely of models in Terminator armour do not scatter when
they Deep Strike, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the teleport homer’s
bearer. For this to work, the bearer of the teleport homer must have been on the
battlefield at the start of the turn

i always find it ironic that marine players are often the ones that try and bend or ignore the rules.

Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.

Ok keep in mind this is a completely different rule than the teleport homer rule so they do not need to be on the board at the start of the turn.

I believe that since the model is inside the stormraven you can still get the effect from the Augur Triangulation if you are within 12 of 2 stormravens since all it says is that you have to be with 12" of the homer and the homer is inside the raven usually if this doesn't work it is mentioned in the rule. For example the orks custom force field says "All models within 6" recieve a 5+ invul against shooting unless the model is embarked in a vehicle then the vehicle get the 5+ invul save."

The marines are in the pod, they were in deep strike reserve and now they're on the board so they arrived from deep strike reserve. What you're arguing would be about the same as someone saying "Only the drop pod dies and not the guys inside because the drop pod was the only thing arriving from deep strike" in case of a deep strike mishap that killed the unit.

Isn't there a restriction within Drop Pod Assault that forbids charging the turn you arrive?

 Happyjew wrote:
Isn't there a restriction within Drop Pod Assault that forbids charging the turn you arrive?

Yes there is.

And this Formation doesn't override it.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Isn't there a restriction within Drop Pod Assault that forbids charging the turn you arrive?

Yes there is.

And this Formation doesn't override it.

I'm looking at the rule in the new blood angel book (the newest updated book that has drop pods) and the only thing preventing you from assaulting is the fact that you are arriving from deep strike. So from all the interpretations so far either blood angels players have to take a 1000 point formation to assault from drop pods, or they automatically are able to assault from drop pods because they didn't arrive from deep strike. So my belief is that they arrive from deep strike and the formation allows them to assault. Otherwise all blood angels players automatically can just assault with like 30 marines and 3 dreadnoughts out of drop pods first turn.

 Happyjew wrote:
Isn't there a restriction within Drop Pod Assault that forbids charging the turn you arrive?

No, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
There is such a thing for C:SM-Drop Pods! But Blood Angel-Drop Pods don't have such a thing.

blaktoof wrote:
so you believe a piece of wargear that does not normally work if the model is not on the battlefield at the start of the game, should work under the same function because another special rule that uses the same wargear does not say it shouldnt work?

interesting..

but you are completely wrong.

No? The Teleport Homers never work.
But this has nothing to do with Homers working or not, this ruling is from the Formation and not from the Teleport Homer.

It even says so in the text self! "For this to work.."
So for THAT ability to work, it has to be on the table.
And you are telling me that it also stops an unrelated ruling from a Formation?

@Blaktoof: the teleport homers certainly won't help prevent scatter until they've been on the table for a turn, but the formation rule makes no such restriction in the application of it's benefit. Additionally, drop pod assault definitely does not have any wording that prevents assault. You're probably thinking about the rules for deep strike which specifically state that you can not assault after arriving by deep strike - which the formation rules override.

I also must say that I don't play blood angels or ally them into my army. I don't have any storm ravens. I also really don't like that GW is letting an army get a T1 assault when they went to such great lengths to prevent me from doing so.

But trying to deny that the formation works the way the rules say it works won't help. Just find a way to counter it on the table top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just learned that Stormravens don't have deepstrike. I thought that they did for some reason. Without deepstrike, the earliest you could assault with the benefit of this formation would be T2, since the formation has to fly across the table to get in position so that when the deepstriking units arrive the homing beacons are there.

Couldn't you cruise 36' then flat out to get to a point where you could reliably get your pods on the board writhing charging distance?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Couldn't you cruise 36' then flat out to get to a point where you could reliably get your pods on the board writhing charging distance?

Um, yes.
That's pretty much why the rules issue is being discussed here.

Well, let's be honest!
They have been removing it from individual units.
They are giving it back in a 1000+ point Formation in a WD to boost the sale of their Tactical Marines (and WD) while at the same time rubbing more salt in the wound of losing ASM-Troops and not getting a new Flyer.
That sounds exactly like something they'd do

Not to forget that you still have to buy the units who'd do the actual assaulting.

Kangodo wrote:
Well, let's be honest!
They have been removing it from individual units.
They are giving it back in a 1000+ point Formation in a WD to boost the sale of their Tactical Marines (and WD) while at the same time rubbing more salt in the wound of losing ASM-Troops and not getting a new Flyer.
That sounds exactly like something they'd do

Not to forget that you still have to buy the units who'd do the actual assaulting.

Also, GW will come out with a FAQ 3 months from now that prevents this formation from operating this way.
This is, of course, after sufficient numbers of Drop Pods, Furiosos, Stormravens, and BA Tac squads have been sold.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Couldn't you cruise 36' then flat out to get to a point where you could reliably get your pods on the board writhing charging distance?

You could do that but then the units arriving from deepstrike wouldn't arrive within 12" of the teleport homers. The formation rule says that any blood angels unit arriving by deep strike within 12" of at least two of the formation's teleport homers will not scatter and can charge the turn that it arrives. Since the movement phase happens after the reserves arrive, the teleport homers could not possibly be where you would need them in order to benefit from the rule T1.

 NightHowler wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Couldn't you cruise 36' then flat out to get to a point where you could reliably get your pods on the board writhing charging distance?

You could do that but then the units arriving from deepstrike wouldn't arrive within 12" of the teleport homers. The formation rule says that any blood angels unit arriving by deep strike within 12" of at least two of the formation's teleport homers will not scatter and can charge the turn that it arrives. Since the movement phase happens after the reserves arrive, the teleport homers could not possibly be where you would need them in order to benefit from the rule T1.

DERP, I knew I was forgetting something. Still, T2 tide of Angry Washing Machines is pretty cool.

Since the entire formation is rolled at the same time your reach into your opponents DZ seems assured...

It seems like you could roll turn one for the formation, drive the stormravens up 36" when they arrive from reserve, drop pod within 12" -of at least 2 ravens, then in the movement phase...disembark 6", and in the assault phase charge up to 12".

It appears true the reserves have to come in before the rest of the movement phase but they can move their normal distance when doing so can't they?

Don't Stormraven Gunships make their move immediately when they enter the Battlefield?
So:
A) Roll for SR's.
B) Move them 36" on the board.
C) Throw in some DP's within 12"
D) Disembark 6"
E) Charge!
That gives you a 56+2D6" threath-range.

Not sure why I am talking about this, I'm surely not going to buy more Tacticals and 2 SR for a trick that might be entertaining only once

Kangodo wrote:
Don't Stormraven Gunships make their move immediately when they enter the Battlefield?
So:
A) Roll for SR's.
B) Move them 36" on the board.
C) Throw in some DP's within 12"
D) Disembark 6"
E) Charge!
That gives you a 56+2D6" threath-range.

Not sure why I am talking about this, I'm surely not going to buy more Tacticals and 2 SR for a trick that might be entertaining only once

Yeah, I don't think too many people are goin to spend $350 just for a trick that is one FAQ away from being invalidated.

It's pretty sweet though if you already have all the models or are just short a single Raven (like me )

Question:

3 drop pods (from an army with an Angels Fury Spearhead Force faction) arrive from deep strike on Turn one. The first two have teleport homers. The third arrives within 12" of the first two. Can the unit from the 3rd drop pod charge on turn one?

Edit: I guess the formation's restriction that the tac marines can't take dedicated transports prevents this shenanigans.

 Hulksmash wrote:
It's pretty sweet though if you already have all the models or are just short a single Raven (like me )

I'm down a single raven and drop pod to really take advantage of it. Plus I need 2 heavy flamer marines for the tac squads.

Are Blood Angels Drop Pods still Open Topped? If they are not, that would stop you from assaulting (Disembarking from a non-assault vehicle).

 Crazyterran wrote:
Are Blood Angels Drop Pods still Open Topped? If they are not, that would stop you from assaulting (Disembarking from a non-assault vehicle).

In case of some bizarre GWesque mess up, I just double checked and yes they are.

It's a shame they don't make a clear distinction between "teleporting" and "dropping". Would cut out much of the rules abuse that goes against obvious intent.

Using teleport homers to land Drop Pods? Just wrong..

 grendel083 wrote:
It's a shame they don't make a clear distinction between "teleporting" and "dropping". Would cut out much of the rules abuse that goes against obvious intent.

Using teleport homers to land Drop Pods? Just wrong..

It is also the thing most likely to get FAQed out of existence. But it isn't like teleporting in a bunch of Terminators is significantly less effective.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It's a shame they don't make a clear distinction between "teleporting" and "dropping". Would cut out much of the rules abuse that goes against obvious intent.

Using teleport homers to land Drop Pods? Just wrong..

It is also the thing most likely to get FAQed out of existence. But it isn't like teleporting in a bunch of Terminators is significantly less effective.

I don't think they'll FAQ a White Dwarf...

 grendel083 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It's a shame they don't make a clear distinction between "teleporting" and "dropping". Would cut out much of the rules abuse that goes against obvious intent.

Using teleport homers to land Drop Pods? Just wrong..

It is also the thing most likely to get FAQed out of existence. But it isn't like teleporting in a bunch of Terminators is significantly less effective.

I don't think they'll FAQ a White Dwarf...

Perhaps not, but since GW seems to subsist off sadness and pain, I can't rule it out.

every item in the entire game that modifies scatter or eliminates it if Deepstriking in x range of the item requires the item to be on the table at the start of the turn unless the special rule/item specifically states otherwise. By this statement I am saying that all said items in the game either specify the model has to be on the table at the start of the turn for it to work, or they specify that it will allow another unit to come in within x" or reduce scatter by xd6 at the same time the unit comes in.

this was done a long time ago in about 4th edition to prevent slingshot assault armies from DSing units with items that modified scatter then DSing units within range of them etc.

The item in question that grants this formation the "triangular augur" is the teleport homer, not the special rule itself. The combination of the two, if the unit lost its teleport homers it would not be able to use this rule. The rules for the teleport homer require the bearer of the homer to be on the battlefield at the start of the turn. Assuming the restriction of the wargear itself remains when it gains this special rule "augur triangulation" because no other item in the game has been allowed to work without being on the table at the start of the turn.

from the "fluff" of triangular augur:

"once on the ground the units sergeants triangulate their teleport homers to call in additional support"

RAW the models have to be on the battlefield, RAI they have to be on the ground. Models embarked cannot do this.

RAW- teleport homers do not allow their normal function unless they are on the table at the start of the turn, RAI- the models are using their teleport homers to use "augur triangulation" and if it cannot work yet to teleport terminators it will not work yet to teleport anything else, and no item has been allowed to modify scatter without already being on the board at the start of the turn for 4 editions now.

I can 100% promise you that any tournament from big to small will rule that the teleport homers have to be on the battlefield at the start of the turn.

I would bet money, that on the battlefield will be ruled as on the table at the start of the turn- i.e. not embarked.

blaktoof wrote:
every item in the entire game that modifies scatter or eliminates it if Deepstriking in x range of the item requires the item to be on the table at the start of the turn unless the special rule/item specifically states otherwise. By this statement I am saying that all said items in the game either specify the model has to be on the table at the start of the turn for it to work, or they specify that it will allow another unit to come in within x" or reduce scatter by xd6 at the same time the unit comes in.

Tau Homing Beacons would disagree. There is no requirement for them to be on the table at the start of the turn, simply for a model equipped with a homing beacon to be within 6" of the DS'ing model.

Tau Codex - Homing Beacon wrote:Friendly units arriving by Deep Strike do not scatter as long as the first model is placed within 6" of a model with a homing beacon.

blaktoof wrote:The item in question that grants this formation the "triangular augur" is the teleport homer, not the special rule itself.

Assuming the rule quote above is correct and in its entirety, I would disagree that it is the homer granting the ability. The rule simply requires 2 teleport homers to be within 12" of the unit arriving from deep strike reserves.

Is your unit in deep strike reserves?
Are the 2 homers within 12" when your unit arrives from deep strike reserves?
Yes? Good, you can assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:


RAW- teleport homers do not allow their normal function unless they are on the table at the start of the turn, .

This is not the teleport homers "normal" function. Its normal function only applies to units composed entirely of models in Terminator armor

Assuming the rule quote above is correct and in its entirety, I would disagree that it is the homer granting the ability. The rule simply requires 2 teleport homers to be within 12" of the unit arriving from deep strike reserves.

awesome.

blaktoof wrote:

Assuming the rule quote above is correct and in its entirety, I would disagree that it is the homer granting the ability. The rule simply requires 2 teleport homers to be within 12" of the unit arriving from deep strike reserves.

awesome.

this is also why the Teleport Homers affect Drop Pods, since the formation uses them outside their normal function.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

Assuming the rule quote above is correct and in its entirety, I would disagree that it is the homer granting the ability. The rule simply requires 2 teleport homers to be within 12" of the unit arriving from deep strike reserves.

awesome.

this is also why the Teleport Homers affect Drop Pods, since the formation uses them outside their normal function.

so massive reading comprehension problems all around..

of course they affect drop pods.

Drop pods follow the rules for arriving from deepstrike, however the models disembarking from them do not.

So once drop pods can assault that will be great, until then, the no scatter is not much different than reducing the scatter.

@blaktoof Do you have the blood angels codex if you don"t keep your comments to your self, and if you do go read the drop pod section then come back and apologise for your "massive reading comprehension problems".

It seems pretty obvious given the exact rules text. I did a quick fact finding journey through the book:

Yes the ravens move on after checking for reserve. Backed up by rules- check
Yes the homers work while embarked. Measure from any point on the raven's hull. Backed up by rules- check
No the homers don't need to start the turn on the board. Backed up by the formation's augur triangulation rule- check
Yes drop pods and occupants both are in deep strike reserve, and the game doesn't define "arrive," so we are left with coming from ds reserve to the table is arriving via English language. The embarked unit qualifies for charging, as the formation overrides normal "can't assault from reserve" rules- check
Yes drop pods are open topped. -check

Yes this is broken as hell and will not be allowed on the table by anyone sane. -check

Why wouldn't it be allowed? Is it any more broken than AdLance? We're talking about 1-2 units assaulting on turn one maybe. And 12% of the time it doesn't happen at all since your formation doesn't come on turn 1.

Is it cool? Yep. Is it game breaking? Nope. No more so than any of the other crazy stuff in the game.

It is a big investment for what you get. There are more broken thing out there that can be done at a much lower points investment.

Eh, maybe you guys just play at much more competitive tables than I do, but in our games, if someone's army got to do a null deployment, have 3 of a really good flyer, and have several units assault on turn 1 in 90% of games, ignoring all shooting except for one overwatch attempt, it would be considered massively broken.

I agree niv. It won't be allowed at my groups tsbles we've already said. Only person upset? The BA player

blaktoof wrote:

Assuming the rule quote above is correct and in its entirety, I would disagree that it is the homer granting the ability. The rule simply requires 2 teleport homers to be within 12" of the unit arriving from deep strike reserves.

awesome.

What a well thought out rebuttal. So you agree to disagree with yourself? That's what I see from this unless you're trying to say that being in 12 " of 2 homers means they are somehow granting a rule, which we know.is nonsense .

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I agree niv. It won't be allowed at my groups tsbles we've already said. Only person upset? The BA player

Do you guys outlaw skyblight or adlance? How about using bubblewrap like you used to have to use regularly? That's all It takes to stop this. And it's at most 2 mediocre CC units or one decent one. How is 1-2 units in CC (where you get to hit back) worse than getting units shot off the table for no response when your opponent goes first? It's different which means scary but you're spending almost 66% of your army so that 10-15% of your army can assault on turn1. Yeah, that's broken....

I play everything but Eldar, Tau, and Imperial Knights. This won't be a combo I build a list to play around in a larger event. That said it's fun and not earth shattering after the first encounter. I suggest playing against it before banning it.

niv-mizzet wrote:


Yes the homers work while embarked. Measure from any point on the raven's hull. Backed up by rules- check

actually there are no rules to back that up, just like there are no rules to back up being able to measure range to a unit embarked in a transport for enemies shooting at the embarked unit.

further the RAI from the actual datasheet support that this is not allowed.


"once on the ground the units sergeants triangulate their teleport homers to call in additional support"

doesn't say "while flying through the air" or "at any time on the battlefield"

in fact it sounds like the tactical sergeants have to be on the battlefield to use the "augur triangulation" ability...as in deployed on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunhero wrote:
@blaktoof Do you have the blood angels codex if you don"t keep your comments to your self, and if you do go read the drop pod section then come back and apologise for your "massive reading comprehension problems".

someone posted the teleport homer had no bearing on the rules, then in the next sentence said you are required to measure from the teleport homers..

then another person responded to my comment with an unrelated comment.

so here is another unrelated comment for your whatever.

pewpew lasers go pewpew.

as for drop pods, yes the are open topped.

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

notice how it states the drop pods are arriving from reserves..but does not use the wording previously in the same rule "drop pods and units embarked on them" this means according to reading skills that only the drop pod is arriving from reserves, which coincides with the actual RAW of what arriving from reserves mean, check out the rulebook and look it up.

lets look at arriving from reserves for deep striking units.

Models held in reserve can be on a transport that is deep striking but do not gain deep strike themselves, okay.

models that deepstrike must arrive by deep deepstrike, okay.

models arriving by deepstrike follow the rules for "arriving by deepstrike"

models that arrive, from deepstrike may move no further other than to disembark and may not assault that turn.

so augur teleportation

allows models that are arriving by deepstrike to not scatter and assault that turn.

guess what? a open topped drop pod is still the model arriving by deepstrike, the squad inside is still disembarking. being open topped and the rules for drop pod assault do not stop the rule for deep strike which prevents the unit from assaulting the turn it disembarks.

further,

the rules for augur teleportation do not say the extend to units disembarking from deep striking vehicle.

nowhere in the rulebook does it state that models disembarking form a deep striking transport count as arriving by deep strike, so unless you can show how the models disembarking from the drop pod arriving by deep strike are following the rules for arriving by deepstrike, or count as you still have no ability to assault the turn they deploy.

Which at this point is still after the Stormravens arrive, and the tactical squads disembark and are on the table with their teleport homers..




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I agree niv. It won't be allowed at my groups tsbles we've already said. Only person upset? The BA player

Do you guys outlaw skyblight or adlance? How about using bubblewrap like you used to have to use regularly? That's all It takes to stop this. And it's at most 2 mediocre CC units or one decent one. How is 1-2 units in CC (where you get to hit back) worse than getting units shot off the table for no response when your opponent goes first? It's different which means scary but you're spending almost 66% of your army so that 10-15% of your army can assault on turn1. Yeah, that's broken....

I play everything but Eldar, Tau, and Imperial Knights. This won't be a combo I build a list to play around in a larger event. That said it's fun and not earth shattering after the first encounter. I suggest playing against it before banning it.

outlawing a datasheet and misrepresenting the rules are two different things.

blaktoof wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:


Yes the homers work while embarked. Measure from any point on the raven's hull. Backed up by rules- check

actually there are no rules to back that up, just like there are no rules to back up being able to measure range to a unit embarked in a transport for enemies shooting at the embarked unit.

further the RAI from the actual datasheet support that this is not allowed.


"once on the ground the units sergeants triangulate their teleport homers to call in additional support"

doesn't say "while flying through the air" or "at any time on the battlefield"

in fact it sounds like the tactical sergeants have to be on the battlefield to use the "augur triangulation" ability...as in deployed on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunhero wrote:
@blaktoof Do you have the blood angels codex if you don"t keep your comments to your self, and if you do go read the drop pod section then come back and apologise for your "massive reading comprehension problems".

someone posted the teleport homer had no bearing on the rules, then in the next sentence said you are required to measure from the teleport homers..

then another person responded to my comment with an unrelated comment.

so here is another unrelated comment for your whatever.

pewpew lasers go pewpew.

as for drop pods, yes the are open topped.

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

notice how it states the drop pods are arriving from reserves..but does not use the wording previously in the same rule "drop pods and units embarked on them" this means according to reading skills that only the drop pod is arriving from reserves, which coincides with the actual RAW of what arriving from reserves mean, check out the rulebook and look it up.

lets look at arriving from reserves for deep striking units.

Models held in reserve can be on a transport that is deep striking but do not gain deep strike themselves, okay.

models that deepstrike must arrive by deep deepstrike, okay.

models arriving by deepstrike follow the rules for "arriving by deepstrike"

models that arrive, from deepstrike may move no further other than to disembark and may not assault that turn.

so augur teleportation

allows models that are arriving by deepstrike to not scatter and assault that turn.

guess what? a open topped drop pod is still the model arriving by deepstrike, the squad inside is still disembarking. being open topped and the rules for drop pod assault do not stop the rule for deep strike which prevents the unit from assaulting the turn it disembarks.

further,

the rules for augur teleportation do not say the extend to units disembarking from deep striking vehicle.

nowhere in the rulebook does it state that models disembarking form a deep striking transport count as arriving by deep strike, so unless you can show how the models disembarking from the drop pod arriving by deep strike are following the rules for arriving by deepstrike, or count as you still have no ability to assault the turn they deploy.

Which at this point is still after the Stormravens arrive, and the tactical squads disembark and are on the table with their teleport homers..




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 Hulksmash wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I agree niv. It won't be allowed at my groups tsbles we've already said. Only person upset? The BA player

Do you guys outlaw skyblight or adlance? How about using bubblewrap like you used to have to use regularly? That's all It takes to stop this. And it's at most 2 mediocre CC units or one decent one. How is 1-2 units in CC (where you get to hit back) worse than getting units shot off the table for no response when your opponent goes first? It's different which means scary but you're spending almost 66% of your army so that 10-15% of your army can assault on turn1. Yeah, that's broken....

I play everything but Eldar, Tau, and Imperial Knights. This won't be a combo I build a list to play around in a larger event. That said it's fun and not earth shattering after the first encounter. I suggest playing against it before banning it.

outlawing a datasheet and misrepresenting the rules are two different things.

Ok so the unit inside doesn't arrive from deep strike. So now i can assault with them automatically without the formation right? Because the only thing stopping them from assaulting is the fact that they arrive from deep strike reserve. So pick your poison you want it so that all units from drop pods can assault or just the ones people can get after doing this special formation.

I love how you're so against blood angels assaulting turn one but we have things like wolfstar, seerstar, transcendent ctans, full armies of knights. Overall a couple units being able to assault first turn is not something that will break the game.

crukks, how do you see a turn 1 assault happening? The formation can't take dedicated transports.

col_impact - Drop Pod Assault.

As many people have said, bring in the ravens, move them 36". Bring in your drop pods (half of your pods arrive first turn). Have them land near enough to the ravens to get the formations bonus.....profit?

sm3g wrote:
col_impact - Drop Pod Assault.

As many people have said, bring in the ravens, move them 36". Bring in your drop pods (half of your pods arrive first turn). Have them land near enough to the ravens to get the formations bonus.....profit?

I need to do some measurements and graphs to see just how far ahead you can get two pods. Space may be an issue in terms of making this work. But the prospect of getting two CHARGING Angry Washing Machines on the board to mess up your opponent's day makes me smile. I guess the best way to defend against this is to deploy at the back of your zone and let those dreads fall where they can't deal with your stuff, then proceed to kill them on your turn.

That's exactly what you do, if playing width. If playing standard deployment, there is nowhere to hide. The back of your deployment zone would be 36'' away from the front of his.


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The other way to defend against it is bubble wrapping, as has been said. You can't charge through enemy units.

If someone plays this they may as well go all out and use the red thirst formation for that extra initiative.

You know this is really simple. locator Beacons on the stormravens, turn 2 bring the house.

Fireraven wrote:
You know this is really simple. locator Beacons on the stormravens, turn 2 bring the house.

They wouldn't get assault out of Deep Strike, since that is tied to the Teleport Homers on the Tacticals...in the SRs.

sm3g wrote:
col_impact - Drop Pod Assault.

As many people have said, bring in the ravens, move them 36". Bring in your drop pods (half of your pods arrive first turn). Have them land near enough to the ravens to get the formations bonus.....profit?

Please explain how you move the ravens on turn 1 before resolving deep strike which happens at the beginning of the turn.

Edit: I missed some of the formation rules. The ravens arrive from reserves first, moving onto the board, then the deep strike happens. Okay so it seems to work.

There's just so much wrong with this Formation.

The teleport homers are suppose to be on the ground, not work in the Raven.
It's suppose to aid withe Teleporting, not all forms of deepstrike.

And Zooming flyers on turn 1!?! What the Jack Russell are they playing at? Did the Intern write this one?

Imagine both player using this formation against each other. What the hell is that gonna look like?

You can always skies of blood the troops while zooming.

When people say bubblewrap to stop it, is that essentially putting a wall of gakky stuff in front of your important stuff, can you not target units behind other units if you can still draw line of sight?

sm3g wrote:
When people say bubblewrap to stop it, is that essentially putting a wall of gakky stuff in front of your important stuff, can you not target units behind other units if you can still draw line of sight?

You can't charge through another unit. So bubble-wrapping puts a big shield of wounds in front of the Angry Washing Machine or Terminators that you are trying to hurl at their Big Scary Thing. Hard to say what you can do to deal with the bubble-wrap.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

sm3g wrote:
When people say bubblewrap to stop it, is that essentially putting a wall of gakky stuff in front of your important stuff, can you not target units behind other units if you can still draw line of sight?

You can't charge through another unit. So bubble-wrapping puts a big shield of wounds in front of the Angry Washing Machine or Terminators that you are trying to hurl at their Big Scary Thing. Hard to say what you can do to deal with the bubble-wrap.

Have your own?
As in: If you charge the bubble wrap with a small Unit, they have to consolidate onto that Unit, leaving a clear path for your Angry Washing Machine.
1 Turn might not be enough and this has to be done a Turn before the Washing Machine arrives, but that's one method...

Crukks
Ok so the unit inside doesn't arrive from deep strike. So now i can assault with them automatically without the formation right? Because the only thing stopping them from assaulting is the fact that they arrive from deep strike reserve. So pick your poison you want it so that all units from drop pods can assault or just the ones people can get after doing this special formation.

I love how you're so against blood angels assaulting turn one but we have things like wolfstar, seerstar, transcendent ctans, full armies of knights. Overall a couple units being able to assault first turn is not something that will break the game

.

in regards to above.

In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

so neither DSing units
nor
units that have disembarked from transports that arrived by deep strike may assault.

I am not against it, those are just the rules.

1. A Furioso in a Drop Pod is held in Deep Strike Reserve.
2. On turn 1 it goes from Deep Strike Reserve to the Battlefield.
3. The Formation tells you that units arriving from Deep Strike Reserve on the Battlefield can charge, overruling the BRB.

Which of these three points do you disagree with?

I think i'd have to agree with the dreadnaught being able to charge.

"If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within(...)"

"all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

They are all in deep strike reserve.
The Pod Deep Strikes (Dread never does).
They have both arrived from deep strike reserve, whether they actually Deep Strike or not...

In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

there is a large difference between arriving by deepstrike, and disembarking from a transport that arrived by deepstrike.

a dreadnaut in a droppod is one of those but not the other at all.

you can tell which it is by figuring out which models followed the rules in the rulebook for arriving by deepstrike.

1. A Furioso in a Drop Pod is held in Deep Strike Reserve.
2. On turn 1 it goes from Deep Strike Reserve to the Battlefield.
3. The Formation tells you that units arriving from Deep Strike Reserve on the Battlefield can charge, overruling the BRB.

lets not leave out the rules you are skipping.

1. a furiouso is held in combined reserves with a dreadnaut, one roll will be made and they will arrive together. despite that the furioso does not have the DS special rule, the rules for DS state a model may be embarked on the DSing transport. The models embarked do not gain deep strike, and are not listed as counting as deep striking.

Deep Strike and Transports Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.

as you can see from the RAW the transport is deep strikign despite the passengers not having it, nothing states the passengers count as arriving by deepstrike, nor do they follow the explicit rules for arriving by deepstrike. They did arrive from combined reserves with the transport, and the transport was deepstriking but without permission to count as also deepstriking, the embarked units did not arrive by deepstriking.


2. turn one the drop pod goes from reserves onto the battlefield by deepstriking, it follows the rules for arriving by deepstrike.
3. The furioso disembarks from the drop pod which arrived by deepstrike. It does not follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike, as it was disembarking from another unit that arrived by deepstrike and itself was not deepstriking.
4. the formation tells us that units arriving by deepstrike reserve can charge, the BRB is overruled however the furioso did not arrive by deepstrike it disembarked from a transport that did, and does not count as deep striking nor did it gain the deep strike rule.

blaktoof wrote:

In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

there is a large difference between arriving by deepstrike, and disembarking from a transport that arrived by deepstrike.

a dreadnaut in a droppod is one of those but not the other at all.

you can tell which it is by figuring out which models followed the rules in the rulebook for arriving by deepstrike.

That is correct, as i put in my post:

The Dreadnaught does NOT arrive by Deep Strike. Only the Drop Pod is Deep Striking.

However, in the Turn before they arrive, and any Turn before that, since the beginning of the game, The entire Unit, Dreadnaught + Drop Pod, are in Deep Strike Reserve.
They have both arrived from Deep Strike Reserve, one by Deep Striking, the other only disembarked.

Given that the drop pod rules explicitly state that the occupants are in deep strike reserve, and then they arrive on the table...

Saying they "didn't technically arrive" by some weird definition seems like an intense case of clutching at straws.

Pretty sure in our group if someone tried to rules lawyer a squad arriving as "not technically arriving," they'd just get punched and never played against again.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Pretty sure in our group if someone tried to rules lawyer a squad arriving as "not technically arriving," they'd just get punched and never played against again.

Before using the words "rules lawyer" remember that the intent of this rule is to aid Teleporting, not drop pods, and the units are not meant to be Embarked.

a model being held in reserves arriving by deepstrike is sometimes referred to being in deep strike reserves.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

given that rule above, I can find no other reference that there is a actual "state" of deep strike reserve in the rulebook, nor can I find anything suggesting that a unit embarked in a transport that are in reserves, and the transport is arriving by deepstrike counts the unit as arriving by deepstrike. Surely the unit aboard is not following the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

Can anyone find a quote stating that a unit embarked in a transport is arriving by deep strike? or a unit in combined reserves with a unit that is deep striking counts as deepstriking?

TBH this same topic has appeared many times in this edition and last edition with people on both sides, and undecided people. Saying that it happens without any rules reasons so there and BA can do it because knights and eldar is not a valid reason.

in the instance of a drop pod + embarked unit, which is arriving by deepstrike reserves and which is disembarking from a unit arriving by deepstrike reserves?

saying they did arrive by some method without any actual rules support seems like massive clutching at nothing and making things up.

if your gaming group thinks rules discussions are a basis for punching people I am certain some of them will eventually find a way to jail for assault.

I think the general consensus is that you can assault out of a drop pod on turn 1 assuming all the criteria are met regarding the formation rules. It's really only Blaktoof who seems to disagree and he isn't going to be swayed by any logic other than his own.

@grendel083

I wouldn't be so sure of your statement. Seems to me that the intent is mostly for Assault Marines (which don't teleport)and Drop Pods since it's a tactical spearhead for a tactical company meaning that it's unlikely teleporting units are used regularly with this method of assault. Unless the 1st and 2nd company always deploy to the same warzones.

Basically Blood Angels found a way to use teleport homers to coordinate their rapid method of warfare.

I love how everyone keeps dismissing that teleport homers are required to be on table at the start of the turn to work, and the background info for "augur triangulation" states the tactical sergeants have to be on the ground to triangulate their teleport homers...

I would disagree that the general consensus is that you can actually perform this nonsense and it is valid rules wise.

Despite the fact I am wasting time trying to explain the plain rules to people, others in this thread have already stated it does not work as well in this same thread. They just have more sense than I do in regards to arguing over the internet.

Where are the rules allowing measurement to a single model embarked on a Transport?

I see the rules provide for measurements to a unit, but not a single member of the unit. If we aren't granted permission to measure to the Sergeant who is not on the table, how is it done?

If the above is the case, is there a timing problem? Can the unit come in on a SR and use Skies of Blood prior to the Drop Pods being placed?

blaktoof wrote:
Can anyone find a quote stating that a unit embarked in a transport is arriving by deep strike? or a unit in combined reserves with a unit that is deep striking counts as deepstriking?

Thing is, i'm quite sure that it has been disproved by Nos and others (if memory serves), and that an embarked Unit cannot be Deep Striking.
They never count as Deep Striking, even if the following rule is ambiguous:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."
Because it make it sound very much like the occupants are Deep Striking, but that is not possible, as proven.

Now the case of the OP, here is different.

blaktoof wrote:
given that rule above, I can find no other reference that there is a actual "state" of deep strike reserve in the rulebook, nor can I find anything suggesting that a unit embarked in a transport that are in reserves, and the transport is arriving by deepstrike counts the unit as arriving by deepstrike. Surely the unit aboard is not following the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

The problem is this RaW: "Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. (...)"
from the (brand new) Blood Angels Codex, and other Marine Codices.

The term "Deep Strike Reserves" is not defined (clearly) in the BRB, but the following rule calls upon it as well:
"If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within(...)".

So by RaW:
1)Pod + Dread "must" be in Deep Strike Reserves.
2)If unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserves, it "can charge in the same turn it arrives"

Neither 1) or 2) requires any Deep Striking. Simply that a Unit is in "Deep Strike Reserve" and arrives *from* it.


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blaktoof wrote:
I love how everyone keeps dismissing that teleport homers are required to be on table at the start of the turn to work, and the background info for "augur triangulation" states the tactical sergeants have to be on the ground to triangulate their teleport homers...

I would disagree that the general consensus is that you can actually perform this nonsense and it is valid rules wise.

Despite the fact I am wasting time trying to explain the plain rules to people, others in this thread have already stated it does not work as well in this same thread. They just have more sense than I do in regards to arguing over the internet.

The timing issue is another matter, i am confused now.... I thought this was about the Formation allowing Drop Pod"ed" Dreadnaughts to charge on the Turn they arrive?

Obviously the Formation would have to be on the board already...?

blaktoof wrote:
I love how everyone keeps dismissing that teleport homers are required to be on table at the start of the turn to work, and the background info for "augur triangulation" states the tactical sergeants have to be on the ground to triangulate their teleport homers...

I would disagree that the general consensus is that you can actually perform this nonsense and it is valid rules wise.

Despite the fact I am wasting time trying to explain the plain rules to people, others in this thread have already stated it does not work as well in this same thread. They just have more sense than I do in regards to arguing over the internet.

To be fair, I don't think people are dismissing HOW teleport homers work. It's just that their rules don't apply because of the wording of the formation. The formation only says you have to have them. So the normal "Must be on the table turn 1" mechanic is immaterial to the formation, it's just possession.

Also, using fluff to support your position doesn't apply either. You can quote fluff all day, and the answer you'll get is: "So what?"
While it may point to RAI, it has nothing to do with RAW. If we applied background fluff to rules, it'd be one crazy ass game.

further reading of the drop pod assault rule, while the first part of the rule states pod+unit, the second half does not include the unit when discussing the pod arriving.

because only the pod is arriving by deepstrike, the unit is disembarking from the pod.

if the second part of the rule also stated the pod and unit just as the first part of the rule, I would possibly agree with you.

but as it does not even in the rules for drop pods in the BA codex we see only the pod is the unit arriving by deepstrike.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@grendel083

I wouldn't be so sure of your statement. Seems to me that the intent is mostly for Assault Marines (which don't teleport)and Drop Pods since it's a tactical spearhead for a tactical company meaning that it's unlikely teleporting units are used regularly with this method of assault. Unless the 1st and 2nd company always deploy to the same warzones.

Basically Blood Angels found a way to use teleport homers to coordinate their rapid method of warfare.

The formation is extremely clear that it's intent is for Teleporting reinforcements once the tac squads are on the ground. Intent is crystal.

It's like trying to use "Rites of Teleportation" on drop pods. Technically it might be possible, but it's 100% against intent.

 House Griffith wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
I love how everyone keeps dismissing that teleport homers are required to be on table at the start of the turn to work, and the background info for "augur triangulation" states the tactical sergeants have to be on the ground to triangulate their teleport homers...

I would disagree that the general consensus is that you can actually perform this nonsense and it is valid rules wise.

Despite the fact I am wasting time trying to explain the plain rules to people, others in this thread have already stated it does not work as well in this same thread. They just have more sense than I do in regards to arguing over the internet.

To be fair, I don't think people are dismissing HOW teleport homers work. It's just that their rules don't apply because of the wording of the formation. The formation only says you have to have them. So the normal "Must be on the table turn 1" mechanic is immaterial to the formation, it's just possession.

Also, using fluff to support your position doesn't apply either. You can quote fluff all day, and the answer you'll get is: "So what?"
While it may point to RAI, it has nothing to do with RAW. If we applied background fluff to rules, it'd be one crazy ass game.

yet there is no rules support showing the rule will work if the models are not disembarked, or rather work while they are embarked and did not begin the turn on the table. And the one piece of "fluff" which points to their RAI shows that they need to be disembarked...

blaktoof wrote:
further reading of the drop pod assault rule, while the first part of the rule states pod+unit, the second half does not include the unit when discussing the pod arriving.

because only the pod is arriving by deepstrike, the unit is disembarking from the pod.

if the second part of the rule also stated the pod and unit just as the first part of the rule, I would possibly agree with you.

If it makes it any easier for you, I'm trying to state i agree with this:
"If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve" by disembarking from a Transport. Is correct by RaW.

The Unit is disembarking, it was in Deep Strike Reserves.
It has "arrived" from Deep Strike Reserves by Disembarking.
It still arrived from Deep Strike Reserves, even if it walked onto the table (<-- Obviously it can't do that, but the Rules would still give the Unit permission to Assault)

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
further reading of the drop pod assault rule, while the first part of the rule states pod+unit, the second half does not include the unit when discussing the pod arriving.

because only the pod is arriving by deepstrike, the unit is disembarking from the pod.

if the second part of the rule also stated the pod and unit just as the first part of the rule, I would possibly agree with you.

If it makes it any easier for you, I'm trying to state i agree with this:
"If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve" by disembarking from a Transport. Is correct by RaW.

The Unit is disembarking, it was in Deep Strike Reserves.
It has "arrived" from Deep Strike Reserves by Disembarking.
It still arrived from Deep Strike Reserves, even if it walked onto the table (<-- Obviously it can't do that, but the Rules would still give the Unit permission to Assault)

the part you bolded and quoted is not an actual rules quote I can find anywhere.

regardless "deep strike reserve" according to the rulebook is the state of a unit being held in reserve and arriving by deepstrike.

a drop pod + embarked unit can make a combined reserve roll and both arrive from reserves, but only one is arriving by deepstrike according to the rules.

this is further supported in the rules for drop pod assault.

Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

where we read that the unit+transport are held in deepstrike reserves, and then we see that the drop pods arrive from reserve. How do they arrive? by deepstriking. the units inside arrive from reserve, how do they arrive? by disembarking from the transport which deepstriked. Does is say the pods arrive or the pods + unit arrive? Just the pods...interesting..
so the pods are arriving from reserve by deepstrike, where are the rules for how the unit is arriving that people keep saying the unit embarked on the unit that is deepstriking is also deepstriking? Because its just not there.

Did we make one roll for the combined reserves so they both arrive at the same time? yes.

did they both arrive on the table the same way? no.

Is there a rule that says the embarked unit counts as arriving by deepstrike, or from deepstrike? no.

blaktoof:
Do we agree that the Pod occupants are in Deep Strike Reserve when the game begins?

Do we agree that after the Pod Deep Strikes, the unit has arrived from reserves?

If so, then the embarked unit has arrived from Deep Strike Reserves and can benefit from the Augur Triangulation special rule.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Why wouldn't it be allowed? Is it any more broken than AdLance? We're talking about 1-2 units assaulting on turn one maybe. And 12% of the time it doesn't happen at all since your formation doesn't come on turn 1.

Is it cool? Yep. Is it game breaking? Nope. No more so than any of the other crazy stuff in the game.

The heck is Adlance?

But really Sure its Very strong but its also counter deployable. Especially in Hammer and anvil.

blaktoof wrote:
the part you bolded and quoted is not an actual rules quote I can find anywhere.

Only the part in the quotes is from RaW. the other is my wording to try and make the point clearer.

blaktoof wrote:
regardless "deep strike reserve" according to the rulebook is the state of a unit being held in reserve and arriving by deepstrike.

The Underlined is not listed anywhere in the Rulebook.

Deep Strike Reserves is a subgroup of Reserves. All Units that Deep Strike must be in Deep Strike Reserves. But not all Units in Deep Strike Reserves can/will Deep Strike.
If A is B, B is not always A. You are making that mistake.

Models embarked on Drop Pods, by RaW, are in Deep Strike Reserves, and so is their Transport. But not all models Deep Strike Reserves have the ability to Deep Strike.

Do you agree with this at least?
We can then move on to how the Formation specifically allows all Units is Deep Strike Reserves to charge on a Turn they arrive, regardless of if they Deep Strike or not.

your third point is a leap and has no rules basis.

the unit has not arrived from deepstrike reserves.

deep strike reserves is arriving from reserves by deepstrike, to arrive from reserves by deepstrike requires that you deploy a model then roll for scatter..

one of the units that arrives from the combined reserves roll does this, and as such arrives by deepstrike, the other disembarks from a unit that arrived by deepstrike.

further the pod does not "arrive from deepstrike reserves" as there is no such rule, as per the rules for the pod it arrives from reserves.

At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve.

note how it doesn't state it arrives from deep strike reserves. Because there is no such thing, as per the BRB arriving by deepstrike while in reserves is sometimes called "deepstrike reserves"

How does a pod arrive from reserves? by deepstriking.

It then follows the rules for "arriving by deepstriking"

how does the unit inside arrive? it arrived from reserves embarked upon a transport that arrived by deepstriking. Are we told the unit counts as deepstriking, or arriving by deepstrike? no.

we are told the unit can disembark, we are further told under deepstriking that units disembarking from a transport that deepstriked (note how they never say the unit is deepstriking..) may not assault that turn.

note how the time is taken in the rules to seperate the unit that deepstrikes, and the embarked squad.

you have no actual rules support that an embarked unit is arriving by deepstrike.

further it is obvious the unit is not arriving by deepstrike, because no rule states it counts as, is, nor does it follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

if you have a rules quote somewhere that says otherwise, please provide it.

Blaktoof actually made me go back and check to see if other people agreed with him and just bowed out....Nope. Not once it was actually explained to them....

So like I said, Blaktoof is the only one who really disagrees....That's the closest you'll ever get to a 40k consensus in YMDC

@Desubot

Adamentine Lance. It's when you take 3 knights they get to re-roll their ion shield saves and charges as long as they are within 3" of each other. It's pretty universally considered the stupidest formation on the planet (as in most messed up). People taking 3 knights or more (which they were) get a massive survivability increase for no point investment. How many people were running 3 Ravens with 30 Tacticals before this formation came into existance (and who actually after it's out )

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the part you bolded and quoted is not an actual rules quote I can find anywhere.

Only the part in the quotes is from RaW. the other is my wording to try and make the point clearer.

blaktoof wrote:
regardless "deep strike reserve" according to the rulebook is the state of a unit being held in reserve and arriving by deepstrike.

The Underlined is not listed anywhere in the Rulebook.

Deep Strike Reserves is a subgroup of Reserves. All Units that Deep Strike must be in Deep Strike Reserves. But not all Units in Deep Strike Reserves can/will Deep Strike.
If A is B, B is not always A. You are making that mistake.

Models embarked on Drop Pods, by RaW, are in Deep Strike Reserves, and so is their Transport. But not all models Deep Strike Reserves have the ability to Deep Strike.

Do you agree with this at least?
We can then move on to how the Formation specifically allows all Units is Deep Strike Reserves to charge on a Turn they arrive, regardless of if they Deep Strike or not.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit. • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

first part- unit is in reserves, you state to opponent it will arrive by deep strike (this is called deepstrike reserves)

following that in the rules is arriving by deepstrike.

There are no other rules for deep strike reserves other than being in reserves, and arriving by deepstrike reserves.

the embarked unit does not follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike, nor does it gain a rule anywhere that it counts as.

blaktoof wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the part you bolded and quoted is not an actual rules quote I can find anywhere.

Only the part in the quotes is from RaW. the other is my wording to try and make the point clearer.

blaktoof wrote:
regardless "deep strike reserve" according to the rulebook is the state of a unit being held in reserve and arriving by deepstrike.

The Underlined is not listed anywhere in the Rulebook.

Deep Strike Reserves is a subgroup of Reserves. All Units that Deep Strike must be in Deep Strike Reserves. But not all Units in Deep Strike Reserves can/will Deep Strike.
If A is B, B is not always A. You are making that mistake.

Models embarked on Drop Pods, by RaW, are in Deep Strike Reserves, and so is their Transport. But not all models Deep Strike Reserves have the ability to Deep Strike.

Do you agree with this at least?
We can then move on to how the Formation specifically allows all Units is Deep Strike Reserves to charge on a Turn they arrive, regardless of if they Deep Strike or not.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit. • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

first part- unit is in reserves, you state to opponent it will arrive by deep strike (this is called deepstrike reserves)

following that in the rules is arriving by deepstrike.

There are no other rules for deep strike reserves other than being in reserves, and arriving by deepstrike reserves.

the embarked unit does not follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike, nor does it gain a rule anywhere that it counts as.

This rules statement would seem to contradict your argument entirely



The rules are calling a unit arriving via Deep Strike inside a Deep Striking Transport a Deep Striking unit.

Blaktoof - another bunch of assertions there. Easiest one for you to prove - prove that to have arrived from ds reserve type unit must have arrived by deepstrike. Page and graph.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Blaktoof actually made me go back and check to see if other people agreed with him and just bowed out....Nope. Not once it was actually explained to them....

So like I said, Blaktoof is the only one who really disagrees....That's the closest you'll ever get to a 40k consensus in YMDC

Although that really doesn't help in the discussion. Trying to explain how everyone else sees it (If, as you say, so many agree on it) might be more useful.
If we can never convince him, like i have never been convinced for other RaW Discussions, you just have to leave it at "agree to disagree".

blaktoof wrote:
your third point is a leap and has no rules basis.

the unit has not arrived from deepstrike reserves.

deep strike reserves is arriving from reserves by deepstrike, to arrive from reserves by deepstrike requires that you deploy a model then roll for scatter..

one of the units that arrives from the combined reserves roll does this, and as such arrives by deepstrike, the other disembarks from a unit that arrived by deepstrike.

further the pod does not "arrive from deepstrike reserves" as there is no such rule, as per the rules for the pod it arrives from reserves.

At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve.

note how it doesn't state it arrives from deep strike reserves. Because there is no such thing, as per the BRB arriving by deepstrike while in reserves is sometimes called "deepstrike reserves"

How does a pod arrive from reserves? by deepstriking.

It then follows the rules for "arriving by deepstriking"

how does the unit inside arrive? it arrived from reserves embarked upon a transport that arrived by deepstriking. Are we told the unit counts as deepstriking, or arriving by deepstrike? no.

we are told the unit can disembark, we are further told under deepstriking that units disembarking from a transport that deepstriked (note how they never say the unit is deepstriking..) may not assault that turn.

note how the time is taken in the rules to seperate the unit that deepstrikes, and the embarked squad.

you have no actual rules support that an embarked unit is arriving by deepstrike.

further it is obvious the unit is not arriving by deepstrike, because no rule states it counts as, is, nor does it follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

if you have a rules quote somewhere that says otherwise, please provide it.

I don't need a rule to prove that an embarked unit is arriving by deepstrike.
I fully agree with you, the unit is not arriving by deepstrike. That is RaW.

But you cannot disprove the fact that the Unit is in Deep Strike Reserves. I'll quote it to you word for word:
"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."

The Dreadnaught is in Deep Strike Reserves, Yes or No?

Just answer that, and we can move on to the next part. (Provide some RaW for No, too, because i've got clear proof right there.)

col_impact wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the part you bolded and quoted is not an actual rules quote I can find anywhere.

Only the part in the quotes is from RaW. the other is my wording to try and make the point clearer.

blaktoof wrote:
regardless "deep strike reserve" according to the rulebook is the state of a unit being held in reserve and arriving by deepstrike.

The Underlined is not listed anywhere in the Rulebook.

Deep Strike Reserves is a subgroup of Reserves. All Units that Deep Strike must be in Deep Strike Reserves. But not all Units in Deep Strike Reserves can/will Deep Strike.
If A is B, B is not always A. You are making that mistake.

Models embarked on Drop Pods, by RaW, are in Deep Strike Reserves, and so is their Transport. But not all models Deep Strike Reserves have the ability to Deep Strike.

Do you agree with this at least?
We can then move on to how the Formation specifically allows all Units is Deep Strike Reserves to charge on a Turn they arrive, regardless of if they Deep Strike or not.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit. • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

first part- unit is in reserves, you state to opponent it will arrive by deep strike (this is called deepstrike reserves)

following that in the rules is arriving by deepstrike.

There are no other rules for deep strike reserves other than being in reserves, and arriving by deepstrike reserves.

the embarked unit does not follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike, nor does it gain a rule anywhere that it counts as.

This rules statement would seem to contradict your argument entirely

Spoiler:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

The rules are calling a unit arriving via Deep Strike inside a Deep Striking Transport a Deep Striking unit.

and this ruling

In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

in the same section shows that units embarked are seperate from the unit that actually arrived by deepstriking.

its worth noting by RAW a unit inside a deepstriking transport does not gain deepstrike, and is never arriving by deepstrike, as per the rules "arriving by deepstrike" so from a RAW standpoint

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one

the unit embarked does not have deepstrike, so how is it a deep striking unit?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Blaktoof actually made me go back and check to see if other people agreed with him and just bowed out....Nope. Not once it was actually explained to them....

So like I said, Blaktoof is the only one who really disagrees....That's the closest you'll ever get to a 40k consensus in YMDC

Although that really doesn't help in the discussion. Trying to explain how everyone else sees it (If, as you say, so many agree on it) might be more useful.
If we can never convince him, like i have never been convinced for other RaW Discussions, you just have to leave it at "agree to disagree".

blaktoof wrote:
your third point is a leap and has no rules basis.

the unit has not arrived from deepstrike reserves.

deep strike reserves is arriving from reserves by deepstrike, to arrive from reserves by deepstrike requires that you deploy a model then roll for scatter..

one of the units that arrives from the combined reserves roll does this, and as such arrives by deepstrike, the other disembarks from a unit that arrived by deepstrike.

further the pod does not "arrive from deepstrike reserves" as there is no such rule, as per the rules for the pod it arrives from reserves.

At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve.

note how it doesn't state it arrives from deep strike reserves. Because there is no such thing, as per the BRB arriving by deepstrike while in reserves is sometimes called "deepstrike reserves"

How does a pod arrive from reserves? by deepstriking.

It then follows the rules for "arriving by deepstriking"

how does the unit inside arrive? it arrived from reserves embarked upon a transport that arrived by deepstriking. Are we told the unit counts as deepstriking, or arriving by deepstrike? no.

we are told the unit can disembark, we are further told under deepstriking that units disembarking from a transport that deepstriked (note how they never say the unit is deepstriking..) may not assault that turn.

note how the time is taken in the rules to seperate the unit that deepstrikes, and the embarked squad.

you have no actual rules support that an embarked unit is arriving by deepstrike.

further it is obvious the unit is not arriving by deepstrike, because no rule states it counts as, is, nor does it follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

if you have a rules quote somewhere that says otherwise, please provide it.

I don't need a rule to prove that an embarked unit is arriving by deepstrike.
I fully agree with you, the unit is not arriving by deepstrike. That is RaW.

But you cannot disprove the fact that the Unit is in Deep Strike Reserves. I'll quote it to you word for word:
"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."

The Dreadnaught is in Deep Strike Reserves, Yes or No?

Just answer that, and we can move on to the next part. (Provide some RaW for No, too, because i've got clear proof right there.)

as has already been quoted for you and disproved, it is held in deep strike reserves, but it does not arrive by deepstrike. in the rules for drop pod assault it even states the pod is arriving, not the pod and the unit despite the pod+unit being held in reserves. Because has already been stated for you by clear RAW proof only the pod is arriving by deepstrike.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

The rules are calling a unit arriving via Deep Strike inside a Deep Striking Transport a Deep Striking unit.

I disagree, a Unit arriving embarked on a Transport that is Deep Striking cannot be Deep Striking. There is enough proof against that.

Units aboard a Drop Pod are NOT Deep Striking. They don't even have the rule? (In most cases)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blaktoof - another bunch of assertions there. Easiest one for you to prove - prove that to have arrived from ds reserve type unit must have arrived by deepstrike. Page and graph.

another bunch of comments and questions without any rules support there.

permissive rules set, prove that to have arrived in a transport that deepstrikes counts as arriving by deepstrike given the rules for arriving by deepstrike rather than disembarking from a unit that followed the "arriving by deepstrike" rules.

or prove that a unit in a transport counts as deep striking despite not having deepstrike or arriving by deepstrike.

page and graph.

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

The rules are calling a unit arriving via Deep Strike inside a Deep Striking Transport a Deep Striking unit.

I disagree, a Unit arriving embarked on a Transport that is Deep Striking cannot be Deep Striking. There is enough proof against that.

Units aboard a Drop Pod are NOT Deep Striking. They don't even have the rule? (In most cases)

The rules are clearly calling a unit that is disembarking from a Deep Striking transport a Deep Striking unit (ie a unit that has arrived from Deep Strike reserves). Per the rules, Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves. A unit that arrived from Deep Strike reserves is a Deep Striking unit.

Otherwise feel free to explain how the rules I quoted is even logically possible.

blaktoof wrote:
it is held in deep strike reserves, but it does not arrive by deepstrike.

Absolutely correct!

So, when you read:

Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve(...)

Do you agree that the Unit in question must arrive on the board? Yes/No?

So, the Dreadnaught, who was "held in deep strike reserves", is he arriving on the board? Yes/No?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
The rules are clearly calling a unit that is disembarking from a Deep Striking transport a Deep Striking unit (ie a unit that has arrived from Deep Strike reserves). Per the rules, Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves. A unit that arrived from Deep Strike reserves is a Deep Striking unit.

Otherwise feel free to explain how the rules I quoted is even logically possible.

That phrase, as i have said before, is very ambiguous.
What it means:
A) Deep Striking units may not move any further
B) a Deep Striking Transport vehicle can "disembark" its occupants.

Even though you may link - Occupants > Deep Striking units - , that is not possible, because you would have to prove:
1)How they followed the Deep Strike rule
2)How they obtain the rule, as we know transports don't confer them.

The issue is that despite the blood angel codex saying

1- the drop pod + embarked unit are held in deepstrike reserves.

it also goes on to say

2- the drop pod arrives from reserves. and leaves out that the unit is arriving, it does not state the drop pod + unit. This shows the unit is not arriving the same way the drop pod from the rules, if the unit were it would state drop pod + unit again. Yes they are both in reserves, but they are not both arriving the same way.

3- the BRB states that "deep strike reserves" means the unit is in reserves and is arriving by deepstriking.

4- the BRB then goes on to detail with rules what arriving by deepstrike means, only one of the units involved in the drop pod+embarked units is actually following the rules for arriving by deepstrike- the pod.

5- there is no rule for embarked units counting as arriving by deepstrike if their transport arrived by deepstrike.

6- The BA rules that have the pod+embarked unit in reserves, but then just the pod arrives coincide with the rules in the BRB that only the pod is following the rules for arriving by deepstrike, and as such only the pod is arriving by deepstrike from resrerves, the embarked unit is arriving from reserves but not deepstrike reserves because it is not able to follow the rules for "arriving by deepstrike" because according to the BRB deep strike reserves means you are arriving by deepstrike which has very set rules.

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
it is held in deep strike reserves, but it does not arrive by deepstrike.

Absolutely correct!

So, when you read:

Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve(...)

Do you agree that the Unit in question must arrive on the board? Yes/No?

So, the Dreadnaught, who was "held in deep strike reserves", is he arriving on the board? Yes/No?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
The rules are clearly calling a unit that is disembarking from a Deep Striking transport a Deep Striking unit (ie a unit that has arrived from Deep Strike reserves). Per the rules, Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves. A unit that arrived from Deep Strike reserves is a Deep Striking unit.

Otherwise feel free to explain how the rules I quoted is even logically possible.

That phrase, as i have said before, is very ambiguous.
What it means:
A) Deep Striking units may not move any further
B) a Deep Striking Transport vehicle can "disembark" its occupants.

Even though you may link - Occupants > Deep Striking units - , that is not possible, because you would have to prove:
1)How they followed the Deep Strike rule
2)How they obtain the rule, as we know transports don't confer them.

I don't have to prove anything. The rule clearly indicates that a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves on a Deep Striking transport is considered a Deep Striking unit. It does not have to have the Deep Strike USR to be a Deep Striking unit. It just has to have arrived from Deep Strike reserves. In this case on a Deep Striking transport.

The logic of the rule statement supports my reading. If we follow your reading, the statement makes no sense.

It actually does not clearly indicate that.

it clearly indicates that a Deep striking unit disembarking from a deep striking transport...

however the embarked unit does not have deep strike, is not deepstriking, and is not following the rules 'arriving by deepstrike'

blaktoof wrote:
The issue is that despite the blood angel codex saying

1- the drop pod + embarked unit are held in deepstrike reserves.

it also goes on to say

2- the drop pod arrives from reserves. and leaves out that the unit is arriving, it does not state the drop pod + unit. This shows the unit is not arriving the same way the drop pod from the rules, if the unit were it would state drop pod + unit again. Yes they are both in reserves, but they are not both arriving the same way.

3- the BRB states that "deep strike reserves" means the unit is in reserves and is arriving by deepstriking.

4- the BRB then goes on to detail with rules what arriving by deepstrike means, only one of the units involved in the drop pod+embarked units is actually following the rules for arriving by deepstrike- the pod.

5- there is no rule for embarked units counting as arriving by deepstrike if their transport arrived by deepstrike.

6- The BA rules that have the pod+embarked unit in reserves, but then just the pod arrives coincide with the rules in the BRB that only the pod is following the rules for arriving by deepstrike, and as such only the pod is arriving by deepstrike from resrerves, the embarked unit is arriving from reserves but not deepstrike reserves because it is not able to follow the rules for "arriving by deepstrike" because according to the BRB deep strike reserves means you are arriving by deepstrike which has very set rules.

I agree, but can you just answer these please?

Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve(...)

Do you agree that the Unit in question must arrive on the board? Yes/No?
So, the Dreadnaught, who was "held in deep strike reserves", is he arriving on the board? Yes/No?

blaktoof wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blaktoof - another bunch of assertions there. Easiest one for you to prove - prove that to have arrived from ds reserve type unit must have arrived by deepstrike. Page and graph.

another bunch of comments and questions without any rules support there.

permissive rules set, prove that to have arrived in a transport that deepstrikes counts as arriving by deepstrike given the rules for arriving by deepstrike rather than disembarking from a unit that followed the "arriving by deepstrike" rules.

or prove that a unit in a transport counts as deep striking despite not having deepstrike or arriving by deepstrike.

page and graph.

Wrong, as ever. Not sure why posters engage you any longer.

I'm asking the bit before. I'm asking you to prove that your assertion - that units arriving from deepstrike reserve MUST have used Deepstrike - is correct.

That's it. I'm sure you can do that?

So, page and graph. Or admit your assertion has no rules basis.

I mean, we all know it's without basis, but please, prove or retract.

blaktoof wrote:
lets not leave out the rules you are skipping.
1. a furiouso is held in combined reserves with a dreadnaut, one roll will be made and they will arrive together. despite that the furioso does not have the DS special rule, the rules for DS state a model may be embarked on the DSing transport. The models embarked do not gain deep strike, and are not listed as counting as deep striking.

Did I say the Furioso itself Deep Strike'd? No.
Does that matter? No.
Because the Formation only asks: "Did he go from Deep Strike Reserve to the Battlefield? If yes, let it charge!"

2. turn one the drop pod goes from reserves onto the battlefield by deepstriking, it follows the rules for arriving by deepstrike.
3. The furioso disembarks from the drop pod which arrived by deepstrike. It does not follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike, as it was disembarking from another unit that arrived by deepstrike and itself was not deepstriking.
4. the formation tells us that units arriving by deepstrike reserve can charge, the BRB is overruled however the furioso did not arrive by deepstrike it disembarked from a transport that did, and does not count as deep striking nor did it gain the deep strike rule.

2. Correct.
3. Correct.
4. Dude, do you even read your own lines?
Arriving by Deep Strike != Arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.
The Furioso did not arrive by Deep Strike, but he DID arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.

At least we now know why you are wrong.
You do not understand the difference between those two.

col_impact wrote:
I don't have to prove anything. The rule clearly indicates that a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves on a Deep Striking transport is considered a Deep Striking unit. It does not have to have the Deep Strike USR to be a Deep Striking unit. It just has to have arrived from Deep Strike reserves. In this case on a Deep Striking transport.

The logic of the rule statement supports my reading. If we follow your reading, the statement makes no sense.

They are in Deep Strike Reserve. But it is impossible for them to be Deep Striking. Proven.
Logic supports the fact that the embarked Unit cannot be Deep Striking.

The rule you quoted does not "clearly indicate". It insinuates. Which can be ambiguous.

2k list made under the assumption that drop pods on t1 after the raven would allow for t1 assaults, and that the beacons need only be in the ravens, not on foot, just to show what the list might look like. (If you don't agree with the assumptions, goodie for you. I've read the whole thread already. If you don't have a new reason to disagree with it, please don't reply to this post just to repeat the same disagreements.)

Formation: 3 ravens 30 tac marines, melta/AC on ravens, no specials on tacs other than the free beacons. 1020

Formation: 1 5 man vanguard with packs, 2 5 man asm squads with packs. 265 (for some more turn 2 assaulting.)

Baal strike force:
Jp relic priest as warlord (will stay with vanguard from the above formation)
2 drop pods of 5 tac marines as troop tax and turn 2+ assault, or to land in corners and hide if ravens fail to come in turn 1.
3 5 man asm squads in pods, 1 with melta bomb sarge.
1 DC dread in pod. (715 in the detachment)

Assuming the ravens come in, that's an init 5 DC dread, and 2 init 5 furious charge asm squads that get stuck into assault. Meanwhile, 3 ravens worth of firepower go at any priority targets, such as good counter assault units, or squishy units hiding in transports.
Turn 2. Vanguard vet formation with priest warlord comes in, scores free hits on things, then can assault. Ravens drop to hover, blow away anything else overly threatening to them, and let out 30 tac marines to shoot or assault. The taxicals and last asm squad from the main detachment also may come in now, and contribute to the massive assault wave, or shooting.

Expected result: light resistance on turn 3, turn 4 tabling against most armies.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blaktoof - another bunch of assertions there. Easiest one for you to prove - prove that to have arrived from ds reserve type unit must have arrived by deepstrike. Page and graph.

another bunch of comments and questions without any rules support there.

permissive rules set, prove that to have arrived in a transport that deepstrikes counts as arriving by deepstrike given the rules for arriving by deepstrike rather than disembarking from a unit that followed the "arriving by deepstrike" rules.

or prove that a unit in a transport counts as deep striking despite not having deepstrike or arriving by deepstrike.

page and graph.

Wrong, as ever. Not sure why posters engage you any longer.

I'm asking the bit before. I'm asking you to prove that your assertion - that units arriving from deepstrike reserve MUST have used Deepstrike - is correct.

That's it. I'm sure you can do that?

So, page and graph. Or admit your assertion has no rules basis.

I mean, we all know it's without basis, but please, prove or retract.

im amazed you have not been permanently banned from this site so many times, as you are completely classy and polite, and always make statements only with actual rules support.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

a unit arriving by deepstrike in reserves is in deep strike reserves.

now if you can post a quote page and para that a unit in a embarked transport is following the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

or a quote anywhere that you can arrive from deepstrike reserve, a state of being in reserves and telling your opponent they are arriving by deepstrike, without arriving by deepstrike- which is the rules for deploying by deepstriking ie placing a model, rolling for scatter...

Blacktoof, could i just get you to read and answer these 2, so that i may show you where your error is?
Most of what you are saying is correct apart from where you confuse "Deep Strike Reserves" = "Deep Striking".
I am trying to show you how a Unit "held in deep strike reserves" (by your words) does not mean it must Deep Strike (It is also impossible for it to do so).

 BlackTalos wrote:
I agree, but can you just answer these please?

Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve(...)

Do you agree that the Unit in question must arrive on the board? Yes/No?
So, the Dreadnaught, who was "held in deep strike reserves", is he arriving on the board? Yes/No?

Sigh, so that's a no, you cannot prove it.

The embarked unit ARE in DS reserves - the rules quote proving this has been given to you.

They then Arrive.

So they have arrived from where they were. Which is DS Reserve. Can you add the two together? Note the utter lack of the need to Deepstrike in those cites?

So, can you prove that you need to deepstrike to have arrived from DS reserve? You do understand the difference between DS and DS reserve?

Page and graph. Third time. I presume you will further dissemble and not respond, just showing how tenuous your position is, as your central premise has zero rules support. A common theme.

Or better!
I put a unit in Deep Strike Reserve.
Now he appears on the Battlefield.

Where did he came from?

Kangodo wrote:
Or better!
I put a unit in Deep Strike Reserve.
Now he appears on the Battlefield.

Where did he came from?

Magic!!!!!

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I don't have to prove anything. The rule clearly indicates that a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves on a Deep Striking transport is considered a Deep Striking unit. It does not have to have the Deep Strike USR to be a Deep Striking unit. It just has to have arrived from Deep Strike reserves. In this case on a Deep Striking transport.

The logic of the rule statement supports my reading. If we follow your reading, the statement makes no sense.

They are in Deep Strike Reserve. But it is impossible for them to be Deep Striking. Proven.
Logic supports the fact that the embarked Unit cannot be Deep Striking.

The rule you quoted does not "clearly indicate". It insinuates. Which can be ambiguous.

The rule I quoted called a unit that disembarked from a Deep Striking transport a Deep Striking unit. Do you agree?



The rule proves that the embarked unit has arrived from Deep Strike reserves. The rules sometimes refer to Deep Strike as Deep Strike Reserve. This rule clearly shows that Deep Striking can refer to a unit that has arrived from Deep Strike reserves (whether or not the unit itself had the Deep Strike USR)

So wait, the tactical squad inside the raven can disembark using skies of fury, also they will benefit of their own rules so they don't scatter (they count as deepstriking), make a round of fire and then assault right?

If so that is awesome!!! I've always dreamed of marines doing something like this!!!


Also i would like to understand one thing:

The turn sequence start with flyers coming on board right? This is the very first thing to do right? After that i resolve the reserve (like drop por assault) and then i will move all the other unita. Is this correct?

If so can i do this?

TURN 1:

Stormraven arrive, i use skies of blood to disembrak tacticals, they don't scatter if being between 12 because of the formation rules
Reserve arrive (pod or terminato or marine with jump pack is the same, they arrive from deep strike riserve) they don't scatter if being between 12 because of the formattino rules

Tacticals, raven and everything that have arrived from reserve shoot

Everything can charge

kismet wrote:
So wait, the tactical squad inside the raven can disembark using skies of fury, also they will benefit of their own rules so they don't scatter (they count as deepstriking), make a round of fire and then assault right?

No, because despite deep striking they did not come in from Deep Strike Reserves.

 Happyjew wrote:

kismet wrote:
So wait, the tactical squad inside the raven can disembark using skies of fury, also they will benefit of their own rules so they don't scatter (they count as deepstriking), make a round of fire and then assault right?

No, because despite deep striking they did not come in from Deep Strike Reserves.

Ok now i'm confused, why not if they count as deepstriking? The term deepstriking dosen't mean they are coming from deep strike reserve?


Also another question, can I attach a priest from another detachment to this formation?

Like corbulo inside one of this stormraven?

The storm raven comes from regular reserves, and after that the tactical squad is technically on the table.

I think the key wording here a lot of skeptics are missnig is:

arrive FROM deep strike reserve (its already been shown and quoted that they are written to be in deepstrike reserve). If it said arrive BY deepstriking you would all be correct, but it doesnt it just says they have to arrive FROM, doesnt tell you how they have to perform this arrival..

Ok, but they aren't in deepstrike reserve when they arrive they are in a drop pod

kingleir, as it was posted: "Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."

kingleir wrote:
Ok, but they aren't in deepstrike reserve when they arrive they are in a drop pod

Yes, they are in a drop pod when they arrive. But where are they arriving from? Deepstrike Reserve. Unless we are missing a post that says "Before they arrive from Deepstrike reserve, they move to the local Inn for a brew before coming" in which case you would be right.

sm3g wrote:

kingleir wrote:
Ok, but they aren't in deepstrike reserve when they arrive they are in a drop pod

Yes, they are in a drop pod when they arrive. But where are they arriving from? Deepstrike Reserve. Unless we are missing a post that says "Before they arrive from Deepstrike reserve, they move to the local Inn for a brew before coming" in which case you would be right.

Thank you, this needed a little levity.
I can't help but think of the old Abbott and Costello "Who's on First" routine, only with drop pods, dreadnoughts, and deep strike reserve.

Costello: Well, then who's in the drop pod?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: I mean the fellow's name in the drop pod.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The fellow arriving from deep strike reserves.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy in the drop pod.

Abbott: Who is in the drop pod.

Costello: Well, what are you askin' me for?

Abbott: I'm not asking you--I'm telling you. Who is in the drop pod.

Costello: I'm asking you--who's in the drop pod?

Abbott: That's the man's name.

Costello: That's who's name?

Abbott: Yes.

At first I was like no way in hell is that legal, but the wording is what is.key. Now I'm sure it is allowed but will be faq eventually. But untill they do , Frag out!

Yeah I reckon it will be FAQ'd, even if its just a subtle word change to "arriving BY deepstrike" or just a plain "you cannot use this on units disembarking from transports arriving via deepstrike" or something.

This works and I don't see it getting FAQ'd myself. They have systematically removed the ability to charge from reserve up until this point. This is very much an intentional choice.

Intentional choice to charge from reserve, but I am not sure they intended a turn 1 charge from drop pod assault - although the point investment required might make them thing meeeeehhh

Yeah. With the cost of the triangulation formation and the costs of reaching critical mass of turn one pods I agree.

More frightening will be if there is a detachment you can take of just elites which starts rolling for reserves from turn one. Have any of the leaked images revealed one like that?

None that I have seen yet unfortunately

It's not as though the Fury formation is guaranteed to come in on the first turn. It's really too much of a gamble to be a viable high tier list surely?

sm3g wrote:
Intentional choice to charge from reserve, but I am not sure they intended a turn 1 charge from drop pod assault - although the point investment required might make them thing meeeeehhh

The intent is most certainly not to allow turn 1 charges, as the whole thing is about Teleport homers and aiding teleporting reserves.

The rules may allow it, but read the description as well. This is not meant to aid drop pods.

 plastictrees wrote:
It's not as though the Fury formation is guaranteed to come in on the first turn. It's really too much of a gamble to be a viable high tier list surely?

Its why the command rhino is useful.

Since this is about the most all eggs in 1 flying basket there is.

But the back up would be the drop pods as it wouldn't be a T1 loss if the rhino dies.

 grendel083 wrote:

sm3g wrote:
Intentional choice to charge from reserve, but I am not sure they intended a turn 1 charge from drop pod assault - although the point investment required might make them thing meeeeehhh

The intent is most certainly not to allow turn 1 charges, as the whole thing is about Teleport homers and aiding teleporting reserves.

The rules may allow it, but read the description as well. This is not meant to aid drop pods.

The teleport homers are convenient existing wargear, the description in no way suggests that they are acting as teleport homers, this is an additional function allowed by the formation.

 plastictrees wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

sm3g wrote:
Intentional choice to charge from reserve, but I am not sure they intended a turn 1 charge from drop pod assault - although the point investment required might make them thing meeeeehhh

The intent is most certainly not to allow turn 1 charges, as the whole thing is about Teleport homers and aiding teleporting reserves.

The rules may allow it, but read the description as well. This is not meant to aid drop pods.

The teleport homers are convenient existing wargear, the description in no way suggests that they are acting as teleport homers, this is an additional function allowed by the formation.

Like I said, the rules allow it, but the description outright says it's meant for Teleporting reserves.

It may be legal, but using a drop pod with this is 100% against intent.

The best scan I could find is still a bit blurry but I think the text reads: "With such logistical data at their disposal, inbound reinforcements could drop or teleport to their location with pinpoint precision..."

 plastictrees wrote:
The best scan I could find is still a bit blurry but I think the text reads: "With such logistical data at their disposal, inbound reinforcements could drop or teleport to their location with pinpoint precision..."

I have a non-blurry, actual, printed White Dwarf 47 in front of me.

Angel's Fury Spearhead Force

When lightning strikes against heavily-defended xenos positions were called for, Dante looked to the most experienced warriors of the Blooded to lead the attack. Fully half the 2nd Company's Tactical Squads were transported within the armored hulls of Stormraven Gunships, where they would be delivered with practiced efficiency to the heart of the Tyranid host to secure a beachhead. Once on the ground, the squad sergeants triangulated their teleport homers to call in additional support. With such logicstical data at their disposal, inbound reinforcements could drop or teleport to their location with pinpoint precision, enabling them to respond to priority threats with immediate effect. On many occasions, a Spearheead force would herald the arrival of an Angel's Wrath Intervention Force dropping from on high to smash the xenos.

Special Rules - Augur Triangulation: If a friendly unit with the Blood Angels Faction arrives from Deep Strike Reserve with in 12" of at least two models from this Formation equipped with teleport homers, then it does not scatter, and can charge on the same turn it arrives.

Other stuff - Objective Secured, Spearhead Strike Force specials ; formation (3 + 3); restrictions.

Under restrictions, it says, "The Sergeant of each Tactical squad in this Formation must take a teleport homer as a free upgrade."

So, reading Angel's Fury fluff/logic, pick a point that is within 12" of 2 sergeants (who must have free teleport homers). Any unit friendly with Blood Angels Faction arriving from Deep Strike Reserve does not scatter, and also can charge. The fluff specifically refers to drop or teleport.

By the way, Angel's Wrath, on the facing page, is 1 vanguard vets + 2 assault squads. They have the special rule, "Guided Drop", where they start in DS Reserve and makes a single Reserve roll for the whole formation (instead of 1 roll for each unit). For assault marines, as long as the first model is placed within 6" of the vanguard veteran unit, there is no scatter.

Talys, it also says that the Sergeants are on the ground, not flying around in their transports. So if we are using the fluff to determine intent, then nobody can benefit unless the Tac squads are on the ground, which would be after bringing in reserves.

Big edit -- I changed my mind, so I redid this and I'm going to summarize instead of having a big clump of a mess.

Augur Triangulation: If a friendly unit with the Blood Angels Faction arrives from Deep Strike Reserve with in 12" of at least two models from this Formation equipped with teleport homers, then it does not scatter, and can charge on the same turn it arrives.

Blood Angels - Drop Pod
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of the remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

Codex Space Marines - Drop Pod
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units employed on them must be held in reserve and must enter play using Deep Strike rules. At the beginning of your turn, choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a Drop Pod Assault. Units making a Drop Pod Assault arrive on their controlling player's first turn. The arrival of the remaining Drop Pods is rolled for as normal. A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod cannot charge in the turn it arrives.

Blood Angels Codex reads "Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves".
Augur Triangulation reads "If a friendly unit with the Blood Angels Faction arrives from Deep Strike Reserve... can charge on the same turn it arrives"

Therefore, units embarked upon Drop Pods arrive from Deep Strike Reserves, as long as it's a Blood Angels Drop Pod, because the rule for Blood Angels Drop Pod says so in crystal clear English. Both the Drop Pod and the Units Embarked, because they arrived, and they were previously in Deep Strike Reserves. Because all of the words are capitalized, we can say that "Deep Strike Reserves" is a definition (as you would in a legal document), rather than use of descriptive adjectives and a noun of the English language.

Units embarked upon Drop Pods not beloging to Blood Angels, who knows. They are arguably in regular reserves, and enter play using Deep Strike rules.

Anyways, if I were playing a BA player with Augur Triangulation, I would most definitely give it to them if they wanted it.

 grendel083 wrote:


It may be legal, but using a drop pod with this is 100% against intent.

Sorry, but I have a policy against believing one person speaking for another person that isn't present.

So, no offense, but unless you can point me to your name on the GW rules design staff, I'm left to assume that the rules as written are also the rules as intended.

Granted I still don't think the formation makes for a very sporting game for the hapless opponent of the BA, and this is coming from a BA player.

You'd have me if you said "this is 100% too good and will be nerfed soon" if not for all previous evidence that GW couldn't care less if something was broken: see riptides and wave serpents.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:


It may be legal, but using a drop pod with this is 100% against intent.

Sorry, but I have a policy against believing one person speaking for another person that isn't present.

So, no offense, but unless you can point me to your name on the GW rules design staff, I'm left to assume that the rules as written are also the rules as intended.

Granted I still don't think the formation makes for a very sporting game for the hapless opponent of the BA, and this is coming from a BA player.

You'd have me if you said "this is 100% too good and will be nerfed soon" if not for all previous evidence that GW couldn't care less if something was broken: see riptides and wave serpents.

Have you tested the formation yet? You seem quick to calling it broken. It seems to me that through proper deployment and preparation that it can handily defeated. Its really just the yin to the yang of the Tau gunline

I think there are more broken things that aren't as reliant on many many factors as this. Not to mention the point and money investment that most BA players probably would not otherwise use to make it go.....

sm3g wrote:
I think there are more broken things that aren't as reliant on many many factors as this. Not to mention the point and money investment that most BA players probably would not otherwise use to make it go.....

The money investment is not large at all. You just need 3 gunships and 3 tactical squads. Any SM player will have the tac squads, so you're talking, what, about $200 - $250 for the 3 helos.

The points investment is another thing. 1020 points is a big chunk to deploy (and actually, the $300 or so it costs to do 1020 points, and the effort to paint it is small). But hey alpha strike is very, very powerful. And it's not like those Stormravens and tacticals are exactly useless. Each Helo has four S8 AP2 missiles that are essentially LOS (72"), which is no joke. The Concussive can mess someone up too.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think this is "the next wave serpent", but it the formation bonus is worthwhile to consider, and above-average.

"Any SM player will have tactical squads" <--- except all those BA players that rolled with jump pack marines for their troops in the past couple of editions...

Or any that rolled with bikes as troops.

I seriously have to buy 3 tactical squads to make this happen and I have over 4k of BA.

sm3g wrote:
"Any SM player will have tactical squads" <--- except all those BA players that rolled with jump pack marines for their troops in the past couple of editions...

Or any that rolled with bikes as troops.

I seriously have to buy 3 tactical squads to make this happen and I have over 4k of BA.

Wow, I stand corrected then. Well, unless you want the really purdy new tacs, you can get boring SMs pretty cheap. On black Friday, I bought 7 packs of 5 basic marines for just $7 per pack. They were strange pushfits, but the left shoulders (which were DA) are separate.

Haha nah I am definitely getting the purdy BA ones (I think the GF is getting me one box for Christmas).


But still, in any lists that are under 2k points your investing your entire list to this one all-in kinda strat!

Hoping someone can clear this up for me. Assuming all of the assault from drop pod etc works, I can't find the rule that allows the storm ravens to zoom 36" before the reserves come in for this dreaded turn 1 assault.

Rule book says that "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move." (sorry if to big of a quote for site rules. feel free to redact mods)

Since you have to do reserves first, you would have to place storm ravens at the edge of the deployment zone. This would mean that storm ravens were deployed side by side there would be a little less than a 12" range for the ability to work, and it shrinks substantially as they spread out. Add in 12 inches for possible assault range and you are only reaching 36" across the board max for range. Thus the turn 1 assault is easily negated through deployment. Am I missing something?

col_impact wrote:


Have you tested the formation yet? You seem quick to calling it broken. It seems to me that through proper deployment and preparation that it can handily defeated. Its really just the yin to the yang of the Tau gunline

I've been playing games like magic, d&d, and 40k since I was 5. I have a very good accuracy in my history of predictions on the OP-ness or UP-ness of things in complicated rule sets. If you don't believe me, that's fine.

In my opinion, armies that stand a good chance against a list properly using this formation to its limit are other alpha strike/beta strike lists that go second, and things like green tide, where assaulting with half your army without whittling their army down some first is actually a bad idea, even for furious charging red thirsted blood angels.

nidsNguard wrote:
Hoping someone can clear this up for me. Assuming all of the assault from drop pod etc works, I can't find the rule that allows the storm ravens to zoom 36" before the reserves come in for this dreaded turn 1 assault.

Rule book says that "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move." (sorry if to big of a quote for site rules. feel free to redact mods)

Since you have to do reserves first, you would have to place storm ravens at the edge of the deployment zone. This would mean that storm ravens were deployed side by side there would be a little less than a 12" range for the ability to work, and it shrinks substantially as they spread out. Add in 12 inches for possible assault range and you are only reaching 36" across the board max for range. Thus the turn 1 assault is easily negated through deployment. Am I missing something?

Flyers Zoom for Combat speed of 18" or Cruising Speed 36". Plus, they can Flat Out (in lieu of shooting) for an additional 12" or 24".

All this happens when they move on because BRB says "When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's table edge. Measure the model's move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn." It goes on to say special abilities and charge can't be used. But, Zoom and Flat Out are not Special Abilities -- it's just how Flyers move.

Then, still at the Start of Turn, half your Drop Pods arrive from Deep Strike. Place them within the triangulation parameters, and presto, they don't scatter and are specifically permitted to charge turn 1.

The magic is, we're still in Start of Turn. You still have the whole rest of your turn!

This seems awfully good, because basically, if you get your 3 ravens up 12" apart from each other, you can deep strike within 12" of THAT and still charge. So --

Raven <--- 12" ---> Raven <---12"---> Raven

Now, draw 3x 12" circles around the ravens. That's a massive zone that you can drop and charge half of your drop pods on, for Turn 1. Plus, you know exactly how many drop pods are coming in T1, so there aren't any variables. Because you get rerolls, it's unlikely that you can't at least get 2 Ravens up, which is still very decent horizontally.

If you have a null deployment (ie you start the board with nothing on it), and your opponent has to set up their stuff, you can basically alpha strike and wipe out whatever targets you want, especially with units like dreadnoughts with blood talons. Maybe Assault Terminators. And, you still have very decent flyers on the board, and don't forget the 30 space marines that are also pretty deep in enemy territory -- especially a 6x4 table.

On the downside, for an 1850 force, you've blown 1020 points just for the formation. That's just 830 points for everything else... But is it enough?

If I got it wrong, someone please tell me. I don't play Blood Angels, so all this is just theorycrafting

Ah missed the part where it says you roll for that formation at turn 1. Makes sense now. Thanks

Well after the arrival of the penta hive tyrant, I'm not really sure there is going to be a cap on how some things are going to be silly overpowered anymore

see necron c'tan... Honestly compared to those 2 things, this is quite tame

col_impact wrote:
The rule I quoted called a unit that disembarked from a Deep Striking transport a Deep Striking unit. Do you agree?

Spoiler:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

The rule proves that the embarked unit has arrived from Deep Strike reserves. The rules sometimes refer to Deep Strike as Deep Strike Reserve. This rule clearly shows that Deep Striking can refer to a unit that has arrived from Deep Strike reserves (whether or not the unit itself had the Deep Strike USR)

Nope, i do not agree, let me break down that rule for you, because you seem to be linking two parts of it:

Restriction: "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further,"
Specific Permission: "other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

Now linking the "they" to the "Deep Striking units" is correct, but only the Transport (of that Unit) is Deep striking. The Unit inside (the Unit) is not Deep Striking.

And it never can, or prove that it can:
1)How they followed the Deep Strike rule
2)How they obtain the rule, as we know transports don't confer them.

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The rule I quoted called a unit that disembarked from a Deep Striking transport a Deep Striking unit. Do you agree?

Spoiler:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

The rule proves that the embarked unit has arrived from Deep Strike reserves. The rules sometimes refer to Deep Strike as Deep Strike Reserve. This rule clearly shows that Deep Striking can refer to a unit that has arrived from Deep Strike reserves (whether or not the unit itself had the Deep Strike USR)

Nope, i do not agree, let me break down that rule for you, because you seem to be linking two parts of it:

Restriction: "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further,"
Specific Permission: "other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

Now linking the "they" to the "Deep Striking units" is correct, but only the Transport (of that Unit) is Deep striking. The Unit inside (the Unit) is not Deep Striking.

And it never can, or prove that it can:
1)How they followed the Deep Strike rule
2)How they obtain the rule, as we know transports don't confer them.

If we follow your read then the sentence collapses under its own logic and describes a situation that is impossible. In your read, the unit somehow Deep Strikes to land (with Deep Strike) embarked inside a Deep Striking vehicle that itself Deep Striked separately onto the battlefield. How is such a thing possible?

I am not saying that the unit embarked inside was granted Deep Strike only that it got pulled aside into Deep Strike reserves with the Deep Striking dedicated transport and the unit arrived together from Deep Strike reserves with the Deep Striking dedicated transport and the rules refer to a unit that does such a thing as a Deep Striking unit. This shows minimally for the purposes of our discussion that a unit embarked on a drop pod arrives without question from Deep Strike reserves.

Otherwise the rule completely contradicts itself and describes a situation that is logically implausible and your reading fails completely at addressing that.

The rules are more flexible with the term Deep Striking unit than you allow and that is what is confusing you. You are not using the term "Deep Striking unit" as flexibly as the rules themselves uses the term. "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that has the Deep Strike USR itself and itself arrives from Deep Strike reserves on its own. "Deep Striking unit" can also refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves with a dedicated transport that was the unit that actually did the Deep Striking.

If you feel you can explain otherwise how the rule as stated can hold up logically, please show explicitly how it does so.

For reference

@BlackTalos/Col_impact

For the purposes of the charge, it doesn't matter if the unit inside the transport has Deep Strike or not. The formation says "arrives from Deep Strike Reserves", and the codex for Blood Angels Drop Pods (unlike Codex Space Marines Drop Pods) reads, "Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves".

So, if the codex says both the Drop Pod and the embarked unit are in Deep Strike Reserves, then the special rule of the formation, which requires arrival from Deep Strike Reserves, is triggered.

P. 162 of BRB says: "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)." That page then refers to the units which arrived as Deep Striking Units.

Now, if you want to figure out whether the embarked unit is "Deep Striking:

1. Blood Angels Drop Pod puts embarked unit into Deep Strike Reserve (because codex specifically is worded so)

2. When the Deep Strike Reserve unit arrives, it is arriving by Deep Strike (in fact, this is the ONLY way it may arrive)

3. If the unit is arriving by Deep Strike, it must be a Deep Striking unit, because BRB defines a Deep Striking Unit as a unit which arrived by Deep Strike.

Therefore, the embarked unit for BA drop pods only, have the benefits and limitation of arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, aka Reserves arriving from Deep Strike, aka Deep Striking. When arriving within 12" of 2 formation teleport homers on sergeants (which the rules do not specify must be embarked or disembarked), Deep Striking units also have the benefit of being able to charge.

Finally, if there is any doubt at all, the Angel's Fury description says "drop or teleport to their location with pinpoint precision, enabling them to respond to priority threads with immediate effect".

BlackTalos:

It clearly states in the blood angels dex that BOTH UNITS ARE IN DEEPSTRIKE RESERVE - BOTH

Now, the rules for this formation clearly state: arriving FROM deepstrike reserve - not by deepstrike, but just they were in deep strike reserve before they were on the board.

Now unless you can show us where it says they move from Deepstrike reserve to somewhere else before coming onto the board your point is completely null/void/wrong.

sm3g wrote:
BlackTalos:

It clearly states in the blood angels dex that BOTH UNITS ARE IN DEEPSTRIKE RESERVE - BOTH

Now, the rules for this formation clearly state: arriving FROM deepstrike reserve - not by deepstrike, but just they were in deep strike reserve before they were on the board.

Now unless you can show us where it says they move from Deepstrike reserve to somewhere else before coming onto the board your point is completely null/void/wrong.

Right. And if you scroll up a few posts, I typed out the entire relevant sections of both the codex and the formation (for folks who don't have it but are debating the point), so that there is crystal clarity in the context in which they are written. I mean, the rules couldn't possibly be more specific or use clearer wording.

I agree with not continuing the Deep Striking Transport debate as off-topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sm3g wrote:
BlackTalos:

It clearly states in the blood angels dex that BOTH UNITS ARE IN DEEPSTRIKE RESERVE - BOTH

Now, the rules for this formation clearly state: arriving FROM deepstrike reserve - not by deepstrike, but just they were in deep strike reserve before they were on the board.

Now unless you can show us where it says they move from Deepstrike reserve to somewhere else before coming onto the board your point is completely null/void/wrong.

To Talys & sm3g:
You will notice if you scroll up, that i am in agreement that Augur Triangulation provides the ability to both Drop Pods AND their Units. (Subject of the thread)

However col_impact and I were arguing a much older debate:
a Unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport cannot be Deep Striking itself.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/609548.page
Which is as I say, probably off-topic and not applicable here.

Talys wrote:


3. If the unit is arriving by Deep Strike, it must be a Deep Striking unit, because BRB defines a Deep Striking Unit as a unit which arrived by Deep Strike.

Your point 3 can be more clearly expressed as this.

3. If the unit is arriving from Deep Strike reserve, it must be a Deep Striking unit, because BRB defines a Deep Striking Unit as a unit which arrived from Deep Strike reserves.

col_impact wrote:
BRB defines a Deep Striking Unit as a unit which arrived from Deep Strike reserves.

Where?
Agreed, the rule you posted is very ambiguous, but the BrB never states the above...
The BrB only says "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
A)When Deep Striking, you must be in Deep Strike Reserve.
B)when you are in Deep Strike Reserve, you don't need to be Deep Striking.
A does not exclude B.

Also reminding you that we are straying off-topic as the original question was answered.

 BlackTalos wrote:
I agree with not continuing the Deep Striking Transport debate as off-topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sm3g wrote:
BlackTalos:

It clearly states in the blood angels dex that BOTH UNITS ARE IN DEEPSTRIKE RESERVE - BOTH

Now, the rules for this formation clearly state: arriving FROM deepstrike reserve - not by deepstrike, but just they were in deep strike reserve before they were on the board.

Now unless you can show us where it says they move from Deepstrike reserve to somewhere else before coming onto the board your point is completely null/void/wrong.

To Talys & sm3g:
You will notice if you scroll up, that i am in agreement that Augur Triangulation provides the ability to both Drop Pods AND their Units. (Subject of the thread)

However col_impact and I were arguing a much older debate:
a Unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport cannot be Deep Striking itself.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/609548.page
Which is as I say, probably off-topic and not applicable here.

Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit", because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

col_impact wrote:
Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit",

No, it cannot, because it never follows the Rules for Deep Striking.

col_impact wrote:
because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

It can do, but it doesn't have to.

If you just read down a bit on 162 that BRB refers to units which arrive via Deep Strike Reserves (aka Deep Strike units in Reserves) as Deep Striking units.

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit",

No, it cannot, because it never follows the Rules for Deep Striking.

col_impact wrote:
because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

It can do, but it doesn't have to.

You are getting confused. Calling something "Deep Striking unit" does not necessarily mean that that unit Deep Strikes itself. It can also refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

Otherwise you can't make sense of this rule!

My position is that if an embarked unit is on a deep striking transport, it isn't normally deep striking.

However, if it's a BA Drop Pod, the codex says in 2 places that the embarked unit is placed in Deep Strike Reserves, aka a Deep Strike unit in Reserves.

Or did I get that wrong?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, I am happy to concede that I could be wrong about the embarked unit being deep striking, as I culd be reading too much into it, and giving GW more credit for defining things than is due. In a real game, I'm not sure I would care. I do appreciate your point.

col_impact wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit",

No, it cannot, because it never follows the Rules for Deep Striking.

col_impact wrote:
because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

It can do, but it doesn't have to.

You are getting confused. Calling something "Deep Striking unit" does not necessarily mean that that unit Deep Strikes itself. It can also refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

Otherwise you can't make sense of this rule!

Spoiler:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

Problem is, you cannot make that separation. There are 3 terms here it seems:
1) A unit that Deep Strikes.
2) "Deep Striking" Units
3) A Unit in Deep Strike Reserves.

You say 1) =/= 2) and that 2) = 3)?
I will prove 1) = 2), and can assure you that 2) =/= 3):

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table"

Can you "place one model" from the occupants of the Transport? I mean, the occupants ARE "Deep Striking units" right? The are forced by RaW to follow the above.

Q.E.D.: Embarked Units cannot be a Unit that Deep Strike, and as such, cannot be a "Deep Striking unit".

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit",

No, it cannot, because it never follows the Rules for Deep Striking.

col_impact wrote:
because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

It can do, but it doesn't have to.

You are getting confused. Calling something "Deep Striking unit" does not necessarily mean that that unit Deep Strikes itself. It can also refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

Otherwise you can't make sense of this rule!

Spoiler:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

Problem is, you cannot make that separation. There are 3 terms here it seems:
1) A unit that Deep Strikes.
2) "Deep Striking" Units
3) A Unit in Deep Strike Reserves.

You say 1) =/= 2) and that 2) = 3)?
I will prove 1) = 2), and can assure you that 2) =/= 3):

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table"

Can you "place one model" from the occupants of the Transport? I mean, the occupants ARE "Deep Striking units" right? The are forced by RaW to follow the above.

Q.E.D.: Embarked Units cannot be a Unit that Deep Strike, and as such, cannot be a "Deep Striking unit".

Units embarked on dedicated transports and placed in reserves are combined units and make one roll per the rules. So your logical pitfall is avoided by the rules.



Moreover, my argument would otherwise have no problem resolving your issue. I am saying that the rules use the term "Deep Striking unit" to refer sometimes narrowly as a unit that has Deep Strike USR and sometimes more generally as unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserve.

If we use ONLY the narrow use, you choke completely on this rule . . .

@BlackTalos - please reconcile then, the Blood Angels codex, which says to put embarked and transport into Deep Strike Reserves, and BRB which says units in Reserve arriving by Deep Strike is also called Deep Strike Reserve.

Does this not mean the embarked unit is arriving by Deep Strike?

If so, in the next paragraph, "Arriving by Deep Strike" and afterwards, it consistently refers to all of these as Deep Striking units (lower case u).

Actually, i think i understand it.

The Unit (T+Passengers) is Deep Striking, but only the Transport is arriving "by Deep Strike", while the Passengers are arriving "by disembarking", but the entire (combined) Unit is Deep Striking, which leads to:
"In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn."

by Deep Strike =/= Deep Striking?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Talys wrote:
Does this not mean the embarked unit is arriving by Deep Strike?

I think i get col_impact's point, which would be the exact opposite of the above:

The embarked Unit is never arriving by Deep Strike, but it is still a "Deep Striking" Unit.

@col_impact -- combined reserve units rules are good. Very specific.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh well, I gotta go to bed. . Good luck on the semantics.

let me restate my stance as many of you seem to not understand it.

from a purely RAW point blood angels drop pods do not work.

Which is only one of the reasons the "first turn assault" proposed in this thread does not work.

Following is the explanation as to why.

Firstly the rules for the blood angels drop pod, drop pod assault.

Drop Pod Assault:
Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

There are a few problems with this rule as it is written.

1- Drop pods and the units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. Where are the rules for deep strike reserves? They do not exist in the blood angels codex, but they do exist in the rulebook. We will discuss that issue next as it is the biggest one and needs the most detail.

2- We are told the drop pod and embarked unit are held together, but the rule itself only states the pod arrives, it does not tell us the embarked unit arrives.

3- the pod is not stated as arriving from or by deepstrike, but reserves. This makes sense when you realize there is no such state of deep strike reserves, and if you believe there is a state of 'deep strike reserves' then this rule does not work because the drop pod is arriving from reserves and not deep strike reserves.


regarding 'Deep Strike reserves'

The issue with it is the Blood angels codex wording implies an embarked unit can be in 'deep strike reserves' but does not state what that means.

If you look in the rulebook there is only one mention of deep strike reserves.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

There is no other mention of deep strike reserves.

as anyone can plainly see from the Rules as Written, a unit is placed in reserve and you tell your opponent it is going to arrive by deep strike. sometimes this is called deep strike reserves.

The issue here is with not with the transport but the embarked unit.

If a model is in reserves, and arriving by deep strike (which is what deep strike reserves is) it has to follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike. because 'deep strike reserves' is a unit in reserves 'arriving by deepstrike' the only place we see arriving by deepstrike is immediately following the statement quoted above which are the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

per the rules as written that is what arriving by deepstrike is, so a model in reserves which is arriving by deepstrike (which is the only definition of 'deepstrike reserves anywhere') has to follow those rules to deploy.

in the case of a transport and the embarked models, the embarked models do not gain deep strike.

Deep Strike and Transports Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.

so the embarked unit can not arrive by deepstrike.

Further note in a section dealing with transport+embarked unit, it states the transport may deepstrike regardless if the passengers have it or not, but does not state the passengers count as deep striking, or the combined reserve roll counts as arriving by deepstrike. We are told that the transport is the one that is deep striking.

There is no rules quote anywhere saying an unit embarked on a transport arriving by deepstrike counts as arriving by deepstrike, or anything to that effect.

further as the embarked unit is not following the rules for 'arriving by deepstrike' it can never be placed into deep strike reserves, as that is a state that literally means "in reserves and will be arriving by deepstrike"

as such an unit embarked on a transport can never be held in deep strike reserves, because it can never arrive by deepstriking as per the rules.

now I do concede a RAI argument can be made based on the wording of drop pod assault that shows the pod+unit are held in deepstrike reserves, however the same ruling only says the pod arrives, and not the pod+embarked unit arrive, so another RAI argument with the same support could be said that the combined roll is for the pod arriving by deepstrike, and they arrive together, but only the pod is arriving by deepstrike as it is the only one with deepstrike, in such a case the unit would be arriving as well but could not be arriving from 'deepstrike reserves' as per the RAW because it did not arrive by deepstrike.

And while I appreciate many posters sharing their opinion on this matter, that no one has been able to construct a rules argument that actually deals with the issue of 'arriving by deepstrike' is a rule and not just a statement, as well as 'deep strike reserves' being a unit placed in reserve that you tell your opponent is arriving by deepstrike, and the unit embarked is not arriving by deepstrike as per the previously stated makes it difficult to take many of your responses with any merit.

This does not even address the issues with the teleport homers, and the lack of rules saying you can use teleport homers when embarked.

there is no rules justification for being able to use teleport homers while embarked. the only time you are given permission to measure to and from a vehicle for an embarked squad in the rulebook is to measure for shooting for firing points, and the teleport homer is not a shooting attack nor is it used in the shooting phase, nor is it the squad firing anything. The rules for teleport homer itself does not give permission to measure to a vehicle if a model is embarked on it, and further the actual background info for "augur triangulation" specifically states the sergeants with the teleport homers are on the ground when they use it. I challenge anyone to find a rule in the rulebook that gives blanket permission to use wargear that is not a shooting attack while embarked, or to find specific permission for teleport homers/augur triangulation to actually support their stance.

Blaktof,
I need to point out an error in your post:
If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.
- Embarking....

Now why it is located in that section of the Rule book is a mystery to me, the Editor over there has some unusual formatting choices, but it grants permission for all ranges involving an Embarked Unit to me measured to the hull of the vehicle instead. I also have some concerns about using the word 'its' within the limitation, as it really should have been left at (except for shooting) so it also covered shots coming back the other way. There exists weapons which do not need Line of Sight, only Range, so a more extensive limitation would have made much more sense.

JinxDragon wrote:
Blaktof,
I need to point out an error in your post:
We have permission to measure to the Hull of a Vehicle for all situations which involve measurement to the Embarked Unit except for Shooting....

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.
- Embarking.... why it is found there I do not know.

I see the quote you are stating.

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

I agree that tells you how to measure a range to/from an embarked unit, but does not give blanket permission for wargear/special rules to work while embarked, just as there is no blanket permission to fire at embarked units by measuring to the hull of a vehicle they are embarked on.

The how of measuring tells you how to do it, when you have permission to do it. The 'if' part could imply that when a rule says something can be done to/from embarked units this is how you do it if you need to.

One could argue that the rule quoted gives blanket permission to measure all things to and from the vehicle, one could argue it tells you how to measure to the embarked unit if something specifically is allowed to target embarked units, or be used by embarked units. Otherwise as we have both stated, if the first is true than you can shoot at embarked units, which is obviously silly.

in the case of augur triangulation it specifies the units have to arrive within 12" of the models with the teleport homers. There is no permission for the models to be embarked, or statement that when embarked measure to the vehicle. Given the background that the "tactical sergeants on the ground with their teleport homers" and that the formation itself is a unit of 3 stormravens with 3 embarked tactical squads, that there is no explicit wording stating you can do it while embarked shows that you cannot do this while embarked.

I have a problem with your 'does not give permission for war-gear to work while embarked' statement.

Honestly, I am being a little lazy when it comes to research as I have decided to put other things foremost to the arguments of this forum. I had a few hours free so thought I would poke my nose in here and see what is going on, but I don't have time enough to comb through the book for my own answers just yet. I will simply state that I can not recall anything within the Rulebook informing us as to when we have permission to utilize a piece of war-gear, just that Models will have possession of and the ability to utilize something known as 'war-gear.' As I doubt we have instructions as simple as 'wargear is used during this phase, within these situations,' I have to conclude that we have permission to use war-gear by default.

So I ask you:
Do you agree that a Model have permission to use Wargear by default?
If not, where in the book can I find instructions telling us when and how to use Wargear?
If so, where in the book does it state Embarking removes that permission?

The model does have permission to use the wargear by virtue of having it and the rules for the wargear.

regarding your questions-
I agree models has permission to use its wargear.
in regards to this piece of wargear, it is because the model itself is required to be on table from the rule contained in "augur triangulation" as the units arriving from deep strike reserves have to be placed within 12" of the model with the teleport homer. if the model is embarked it is not on the table. On the use of language the rule states 'model' and the rule for measuring to embarked units is units, which is not model. Of course an unit is comprised of one or more models, but if one wanted to argue strictly based on language then there is not permission to measure to an embarked model that is part of a unit, which is what is required for this special rule. Of course the editor/write of the rules also left such 'gems' as fnp is not a save, when making a fnp save....so lets not discuss language too much

given that the wargear calls out that units wishing to benefit it must be within 12" of the model with the wargear (for augur triangulation) and the model is not on the table anymore, then there needs to be permission to use it while embarked as the model is no longer on the table, or the rules for being embarked and measuring have to mean not how you do it when permission is given to do it, but all things can be measured to and from the embarked vehicle.

So the statement on embarked models and measuring ranges, comes down to a discussion of does it mean:

a: all things can be measured to and from an embarked unit without specific permission and this is how it works.

b: if something has rules that target an embarked unit, or if something the embarked unit has that can be used while embarked here is how to use it.


if a:

then where are the rules to prevent any unit from targeting a vehicle and opting to shoot at the embarked unit for their shooting attack as opposed to the vehicle itself. Of course the LoS thing is an issue, but some weapons ignores LoS restrictions.

this would also mean things like novas would hit the passengers as well as the vehicle for each attack.

JinxDragon wrote:
I have a problem with your 'does not give permission for war-gear to work while embarked' statement.

Honestly, I am being a little lazy when it comes to research as I have decided to put other things foremost to the arguments of this forum. I had a few hours free so thought I would poke my nose in here and see what is going on, but I don't have time enough to comb through the book for my own answers just yet. I will simply state that I can not recall anything within the Rulebook informing us as to when we have permission to utilize a piece of war-gear, just that Models will have possession of and the ability to utilize something known as 'war-gear.' As I doubt we have instructions as simple as 'wargear is used during this phase, within these situations,' I have to conclude that we have permission to use war-gear by default.

So I ask you:
Do you agree that a Model have permission to use Wargear by default?
If not, where in the book can I find instructions telling us when and how to use Wargear?
If so, where in the book does it state Embarking removes that permission?

My group has also been debating this issue. We have also raised the same arguments blacktoof has raised. On an "intent" issue, it is interesting that when GDub has decided to make a ruling or decide the issue they've either said it doesn't work or works in way such that it doesn't not extend past the confines of the Transport, see KFF and PFG. However, we've decided for the most part to allow it since this might be an extreme minority position and don't want to either alienate potential attendees or prejudice ourselves when it comes to attending other events. We have walked some of it back since you aren't granted permission to measure to a single model within a larger unit.

in regards to not extending past the transport, psychic hood from an embarked model is also ruled the same.

Whether these are permissions for a rule/wargear item to affect a transport the unit is embarked on.

or

a the rule for measuring to/from embarked models being blanket permission to measure things to/from embarked models in all cases and a modification of how they would work when embarked.

is difficult to ascertain.

Blaktoff,
We have permission to use Wargear while Embarked then, as nothing removes permission to evoke Rule attached to Wargear at that time
This wargear requires us to measure a radius of 12 inches around the Embarked Model, so we are required to measure something akin to a Range
We have permission to measure any Range involving an Embarked Unit, such as to a Model within that Unit, by measuring to the Transport itself
Therefore, logically, we have permission to measure to the Hull of the Transport for the purpose of this one piece of wargear....

The only Rule as Written argument I can foresee is thus:
Ranges require measuring inches, but not all measurement of inches are Range....
It is weak but it is based on the fact these pieces of war-gear do not refer to the bubble created as a 'range,' or else we would not be having this conversation at all because a range can be measured to the Transport as per Rule as Written. The word Range is not defined within the Rulebook as any time we make a measurement in inches, so it is possible to make the argument none the less. This would mean the clause involving measuring to the Transport for an Embarked Unit would only apply to Shooting, Psychic Powers and Charges... things which call themselves Ranges... by default. This is curious though, as all three of those things have further Restrictions which make it impossible to apply this very clause to those situations. This has me further wondering if you can name any pieces of wargear which can function while Embarked under such a narrow reading of the Rules...?

Angelic,
The fact that any piece of Wargear singles out the Embarked Unit in order to further Restrict them is evidence that they are not Restricted by default....
As you are trying to apply an identical Restriction to all Embarked Units by default, why would any piece of war-gear require such in writing if they are already Restricted?

There is no explicit permission to use the item while embarked, despite having rules on how to measure to an embarked unit if it needs to be done, it does not actually state an allowance to do it under any specific instance or at all times, so either.

a- it is blanket permission for anything to be measure to/from an embarked unit in a vehicle.

b- telling you how to do something if you a rule calls for it to be done to/from an embarked unit.

given the interpretation you are putting forward that all things can be used/done from an embarked unit, or to an embarked unit, without explicit permission to do so in the rule for the wargear/special rule itself would you be okay with say a hive tyrant landing next to a land raider and using psychic scream on the embarked unit inside?

There are many other permutations of what could be done to an embarked unit.

Since it is the same ruling.

Permission to use Wargear exists by default, the requirement for 'explicit instruction' must be within a restriction telling us when not to apply the Rules we have access to.
Psychic Shrek, I assume that is the one you wanted, requires Line of Sight before it can be evoked....

While you are trying to find broken situations I have a request:
Can you find a piece of Wargear which specifically mentions it has permission to measure to an Embarked Unit?
And not the few which brings up Embarked Units to further Restrict measurement which, as per B, wouldn't need to exist....

So where are we at with all this?
Anyone care to post a poll for general concensus?
What does the TO population think? How would they rule this for their respective events?

I think the debate has reached an exhaustive point by now and isn't constructive. We're at NECKBEARDCON 1 here, and no one's winning.

@blaktoof --

To say that Deep Strike Reserve isn't explicitly defined in Blood Angels Codex is just plain silly. Neither is anything else of a similar nature, either In BA Codex, or any other Codex. To pick a random example, Snap Shots aren't defined, yet we understand that Sharpshot's Special Rules (Illic Nightspear) refer to Shap Shots as defined in the BRB.

The convention of the English language is that when words are capitalized, like Snap Shot or Deep Strike Reserve, the reference is to a defined term, rather than a generic term. For instance, snap shot is a nonspecific adjective + noun; Snap Shot refers to a defined term. "reserve" is nonspecific, "Reserve" is a defined term.

BRB clearly defines the words Reserve and Deep Strike Reserve.

We can argue that the rules aren't good, but the Blood Angels Codex clearly says in two different places (unit entry and back flap) that for drop pod assault, to place the embarked unit into Deep Strike Reserve. There is no ambiguity.

In the Formation, it clearly states, units arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. If anything, the defined term of the Formation is closely twinned to the defined term for the Codex, as the White Dwarf Formation was written specifically to supplement the Codex, the week after the release of the codex.

If there is any other doubt that Drop Pods are intended to be usable with Angel's Fury, simply read the description, which references both drop and teleport units. We can argue whether the intent of the homers is to be in the helo or out of the helo (my position would be that just because the 2 sergeants were out of the helo don't mean the teleport homers wouldn't also have worked inside the helo), but we cannot argue that the intent of the formation is intended for drop and teleport units.

As to the placement issue that you have in BRB for Deep Striking Units -- this is overridden by the combined units rules in the BRB (see col_impact's posts above).

as a nova psychic shriek does not require LoS.

as such by the same 'ruling' of what the section on if you need to measure from/to embarked models means allows you to use nova powers on embarked units.



regarding wargear that explicitly states it can be used while embarked.

I think we both agree that wargear that does not extend an effect past something, or does not require a model to be in base to base or base to x" works while embarked, ie med pack that gives a unit FnP still is affecting the unit when they are embarked.

there are not many rules/items which are not shooting attacks that have an affect based on range from model.

I agree permission to use wargear exits by default, but permsision to use wargear that requires measuring to a model that is not on the table, does not exist by default as you cannot measure to the model.

Whether the section on embarked models is telling you that permission exists, it gives no mention of that, or how to do it if permission exists- it does say if you need to, which isn't permission but rather how to do it if you need to.

mek tools, I think servo arm/harness used to.

blessing of omnissiah which is a special rule and not wargear.

teleport homer from the space marine codex- requires teleport homer to be on board. That would obviously be disembarked as an embarked model is not on the board.

 House Griffith wrote:
So where are we at with all this?
Anyone care to post a poll for general concensus?
What does the TO population think? How would they rule this for their respective events?

I think the debate has reached an exhaustive point by now and isn't constructive. We're at NECKBEARDCON 1 here, and no one's winning.

In our local play group, we are allowing drop pod units to disembark and charge. The consensus was pretty much unanimous that this was the intent of the Formation. We don't see it as game breaking, as it's over a thousand points to set up, which makes it an all-your-eggs-in-one-basket strategy for sub 2000 games. If someone wants to play that, have fun.

 House Griffith wrote:
So where are we at with all this?
Anyone care to post a poll for general concensus?
What does the TO population think? How would they rule this for their respective events?

I think the debate has reached an exhaustive point by now and isn't constructive. We're at NECKBEARDCON 1 here, and no one's winning.

Quick Resume:

RaW wrote:Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.

Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. (...)

We all agree that Pods and their Occupants are in Deep Strike Reserves.

Most agree that, as they are in Deep Strike Reserves, and have "arrived", they can charge per the Augur Rule.

The ongoing debate is currently sorting out if "two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers" can be just arrived themselves, and inside Vehicles.

Talys wrote:
@blaktoof --

To say that Deep Strike Reserve isn't explicitly defined in Blood Angels Codex is just plain silly. Neither is anything else of a similar nature, either In BA Codex, or any other Codex. To pick a random example, Snap Shots aren't defined, yet we understand that Sharpshot's Special Rules (Illic Nightspear) refer to Shap Shots as defined in the BRB.

The convention of the English language is that when words are capitalized, like Snap Shot or Deep Strike Reserve, the reference is to a defined term, rather than a generic term. For instance, snap shot is a nonspecific adjective + noun; Snap Shot refers to a defined term. "reserve" is nonspecific, "Reserve" is a defined term.

BRB clearly defines the words Reserve and Deep Strike Reserve.

We can argue that the rules aren't good, but the Blood Angels Codex clearly says in two different places (unit entry and back flap) that for drop pod assault, to place the embarked unit into Deep Strike Reserve. There is no ambiguity.

In the Formation, it clearly states, units arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. If anything, the defined term of the Formation is closely twinned to the defined term for the Codex, as the White Dwarf Formation was written specifically to supplement the Codex, the week after the release of the codex.

If there is any other doubt that Drop Pods are intended to be usable with Angel's Fury, simply read the description, which references both drop and teleport units. We can argue whether the intent of the homers is to be in the helo or out of the helo (my position would be that just because the 2 sergeants were out of the helo don't mean the teleport homers wouldn't also have worked inside the helo), but we cannot argue that the intent of the formation is intended for drop and teleport units.

As to the placement issue that you have in BRB for Deep Striking Units -- this is overridden by the combined units rules in the BRB (see col_impact's posts above).

your last statement actually has no rules proof. the combined units rule tells us they arrive together from the same dice roll, but does not tell us they arrive by the same way or count as arriving by the same way.

further support of this is that 'deep strike reserves' as you correctly stated is not defined in the blood angels codex, but rather in the rulebook as "being in reserves, and arriving by deep strike".

arriving by deepstrike is defined as "placing model, rolling for scatter, etc.."

we are told the embarked unit does not gain deepstrike, and know that it does not follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

in the blood angels rules for drop pod assault we are told the pod arrives by reserves. we can infer it arrives by deepstrike because it has deepstrike and 'deep strike reserves' is only the RAW act of being in reserves, and then arriving by deepstrike= place model, roll for scatter. We are not told the pod+unit arrive from reserves.

RAW the embarked unit is said to be placed in deepstrike reserves in the blood angels codes for drop pod assault, but RAW it cannot be according to the rules for 'deep strike reserves' as it cannot arrive by deepstrike, ie place model, roll scatter, etc.

by RAW the embarked unit is arriving from reserves at the same time as a drop pod that is arriving from reserves by deepstrike on a combined roll.

the embarked unit is never said to count as arriving by deepstrike, or be deepstriking itself so it can never fulfill the RAW requirment of 'arriving by deepstrike', which is what it has to do from reserves to be in 'deep strike reserves'

while I appreciate you think there is no ambiguity in a unit+pod being placed in something, and then being told that the pod arrives but no mention of what happens to the unit being a valid reason for why a unit inside which is not deep striking, not mentioned anywhere in any rule to be arriving by deepstrike, is somehow arriving by deepstrike from reserves to fulfill 'deep strike reserves' I cannot help but wonder if you see the irony that it is actually quite ambiguous to state that the unit is actually arriving by deep strike from reserves, ie in deepstrike reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Talys wrote:

 House Griffith wrote:
So where are we at with all this?
Anyone care to post a poll for general concensus?
What does the TO population think? How would they rule this for their respective events?

I think the debate has reached an exhaustive point by now and isn't constructive. We're at NECKBEARDCON 1 here, and no one's winning.

In our local play group, we are allowing drop pod units to disembark and charge. The consensus was pretty much unanimous that this was the intent of the Formation. We don't see it as game breaking, as it's over a thousand points to set up, which makes it an all-your-eggs-in-one-basket strategy for sub 2000 games. If someone wants to play that, have fun.

from the actual dataslate

"once on the ground the squads sergeants triangulate their teleport homers to call additional support. With such logistical support teleport or drop reinforcements should drop on their location with pinpoint precision.."

not sure your group understands the definition of intent.

ultimately it does not matter what I say, or what you say(any of you) unless one of us are the person solely making the rules for a major tournament, as that is what most people go by for rulings anyways.

so I am out.

p.s. I am up for letting anyone measure their teleport homers from an embarked vehicle as long as I can measure to the embarked unit using the exact same rule as it says to/from

blaktoof wrote:
now I do concede a RAI argument can be made based on the wording of drop pod assault that shows the pod+unit are held in deepstrike reserves, however the same ruling only says the pod arrives, and not the pod+embarked unit arrive, so another RAI argument with the same support could be said that the combined roll is for the pod arriving by deepstrike, and they arrive together, but only the pod is arriving by deepstrike as it is the only one with deepstrike, in such a case the unit would be arriving as well but could not be arriving from 'deepstrike reserves' as per the RAW because it did not arrive by deepstrike.

And while I appreciate many posters sharing their opinion on this matter, that no one has been able to construct a rules argument that actually deals with the issue of 'arriving by deepstrike' is a rule and not just a statement, as well as 'deep strike reserves' being a unit placed in reserve that you tell your opponent is arriving by deepstrike, and the unit embarked is not arriving by deepstrike as per the previously stated makes it difficult to take many of your responses with any merit.

So, Blacktoof, having read all of this i fully understand your point, and it does make sense, apart from the fact that:
Deep Striking
Deep Strike Reserves

Are not RaI but RaW.

I should point out to you: You believe that only arriving "by deepstrike" is Raw, like Legion of the damned:

They always start the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. When they arrive by Deep Strike, you may reroll the Scatter dice if you wish.

And you are correct that a lot of the Raw is like that.

But in this very example, we have 2 rules that are undeniably RaW (because they are text found in the books):

Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves.

Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve

Both Units: Pod + Occupants are undeniably in Deep Strike Reserves (This is RaW)
Augur triangulation only needs a Unit to have come from Deep Strike Reserves (This is also RaW)

Now, were the Occupants in Deep Strike Reserves?
Answer is Yes.

Did the Occupants arrive this turn?
Yes, they disembarked (they did NOT Deep Strike)

What can they do per the "Augur triangulation"?
"can charge in the same turn it arrives."

Proof by RaW, which everyone can see and should really not be hard to understand.
We can keep discussing the Teleport Homers, but the above is case closed for me.

@Blacktof -- if you're going to quote, please quote the whole passage so that there is context. You make it sound like a rule, when in fact it is a narrative:

Angel's Fury Spearhead Force

When lightning strikes against heavily-defended xenos positions were called for, Dante looked to the most experienced warriors of the Blooded to lead the attack. Fully half the 2nd Company's Tactical Squads were transported within the armored hulls of Stormraven Gunships, where they would be delivered with practiced efficiency to the heart of the Tyranid host to secure a beachhead. Once on the ground, the squad sergeants triangulated their teleport homers to call in additional support. With such logicstical data at their disposal, inbound reinforcements could drop or teleport to their location with pinpoint precision, enabling them to respond to priority threats with immediate effect. On many occasions, a Spearheead force would herald the arrival of an Angel's Wrath Intervention Force dropping from on high to smash the xenos.

It's a nice little story, not a rule. But, it says in the story that the beacon is for drop and teleport units (couldn't be clearer, right?). It says the sergeants did the triangulation once they were on the ground. But it doesn't say that they *had* to be on the ground to do the triangulation. Perhaps the sergeants had to be on the ground for other purposes too, for instance, to provide covering fire for the arriving units.

Play it however you want. I'm just telling you how our group of ten-ish regulars have decided to read it, and on a quick vote (since one guy wants to buy new tacticals and an Stormravens to paint BA red, in order build an Angel's Fury), not a single person objected to their reading of the rule, even though most of us (including me) will probably never use this formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@BlackTalos -- nice summary. I concur.

as a nova psychic shriek does not require LoS.
- Blaktoof
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18"
- Psychic Shriek

If you want to change your argument to something which is actually a Nova I will understand, but you encounter one massive problem:
Psychic powers cannot target units that are embarked on a Transport
- Psykers and Transports

This once more brings me back to the problem at hand:
If we lack permission to measure to Embarked Units unless specific informed to do so, why are there numerous Restrictions all specifically designed to prevent situations that already fall under this Global Restriction?

Blaktoof, do you ever read what you type? How can a unit arrive together if it wasn't held in the same place? Too, why do you keep ignoring the ba codex in regards to drop pods and drop pod assaults, specifically the (both pod and unit) are placed in dee strike reserve? Codex > brb,correct?

JinxDragon wrote:
as a nova psychic shriek does not require LoS.
- Blaktoof
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18"
- Psychic Shriek

If you want to change your argument to something which is actually a Nova I will understand, but you encounter one massive problem:
Psychic powers cannot target units that are embarked on a Transport
- Psykers and Transports

This once more brings me back to the problem at hand:
If we lack permission to measure to Embarked Units unless specific informed to do so, why are there numerous Restrictions all specifically designed to prevent situations that already fall under this Global Restriction?

the original power i stated was psychic scream, which is a nova, you then said psychic shriek and without paying attention I typed psychic shriek.

Meant psychic scream.

Psychic powers cannot target units in transports, novas do automatically target all units in range. as nova powers are in the appendix they are listed as an advanced rule and not a basic rule, but nova is also a basic power. not sure how something that can not be targetted interacts with something that automatically targets everything in range but forgoing that.

a player has an embarked psyker in a vehicle, another player uses crucible of malediction in range of the vehicle. As the player can measure range to the vehicle for the embarked unit, is the psyker affected? It happens during the shooting phase instead of shooting, but is not a shooting attack.

along the same vein, do you believe shadows in the warp affect embarked psykers if the vehicle they are embarked in is within range of a model with that rule?

Blaktoff,
Never mind, I have located it and it is a perfect example of what I was going to point out, being Codex specific and all that!

Notice how this Rule does not state 'this Power targets everything within 6 inches' but instead states it is a Nova Power with a Range of 6 Inches?
By informing us that it is a Nova Power, we are required to return to those very basic instructions in order to proceed with it's resolution. Those instructions are defined as 'Basic Rules' as per Basic vs Advanced, so the line stating that all units within Range are targeted does not have permission to over-turn the Restriction preventing the Embarked Unit from being Targeted. This will mean we need to fall back on the fundamental concepts in order to proceed, in particular the concept that all Restrictions need to be obeyed even if they will prevent you from carrying out an action.

If you disagree I simply have to ask:
What Psychic Power does not over-turn the Basic Rule of 'Can not Target Embarked Unit' if all of them are Advanced or Codex by your definition?
I believe the above question shows how flawed the concept of 'The Power is in the Appendix, so over-turns any Basic Restriction' is, given that effectively render all Restrictions on using Psychic Powers powerless...

As for the Crucible and Shadows in the Warp:
Without a direct Rule quote showing that these 'Ranges' are exempt from the Clause I quoted, why should the Embarked Unit be immune to their effects from a Rule as Written point of view?

JinxDragon wrote:
Blaktoff,
Never mind, I have located it and it is a perfect example of what I was going to point out, being Codex specific and all that!

Notice how this Rule does not state 'this Power targets everything within 6 inches' but instead states it is a Nova Power with a Range of 6 Inches?
By informing us that it is a Nova Power, we are required to return to those very basic instructions in order to proceed with it's resolution. Those instructions are defined as 'Basic Rules' as per Basic vs Advanced, so the line stating that all units within Range are targeted does not have permission to over-turn the Restriction preventing the Embarked Unit from being Targeted. This will mean we need to fall back on the fundamental concepts in order to proceed, in particular the concept that all Restrictions need to be obeyed even if they will prevent you from carrying out an action.

If you disagree I simply have to ask:
What Psychic Power does not over-turn the Basic Rule of 'Can not Target Embarked Unit' if all of them are Advanced or Codex by your definition?
I believe the above question shows how flawed the concept of 'The Power is in the Appendix, so over-turns any Basic Restriction' is, given that effectively render all Restrictions on using Psychic Powers powerless...

As for the Crucible and Shadows in the Warp:
Without a direct Rule quote showing that these 'Ranges' are exempt from the Clause I quoted, why should the Embarked Unit be immune to their effects from a Rule as Written point of view?

all the rules for psychic powers would overturn the basic rules if they are contained in the rules for the psychic power itself, as nova is a basic rule the resolution of nova powers is a basic rule. I agree that there is an impasse there as there is a situation where you have a rule that automatically targets everything in range(a nova power) vs. can not be targetted by psychic powers and both are 'basic' rules.

this would still allow barrage weapons and any weapons that ignore line of sight, smart missiles, and the hive guard gun, and some others to target units embarked as well if the rule contained under embarked units regarding measuring is blanket permission for all things to be measured to/from them and not a statement of how to measure if something has specific permission.

at this point this is slightly off topic, but still relates to teleport homers and whether or not they measure from the hull of an embarked vehicle because that statement has blanket permission for everything (which is never stated) or do not work while embarked because there is no permission to use them while embarked to use the rules for how to measure from an embarked unit.

from a rules as written standpoint regarding the statement under embarked unit, if it is indeed permission for a unit to use wargear/special rules as blanket permission, ie the rule/wargear does not need to state you can use it while embarked, and this is how you do it- then both crucible and shadows would affect embarked models. I am sure there are some other things.

We can agree that there are problems within these Rules.
The conflict you are putting forth is not the best of an example of a 'same level conflict' as I know them. Restrictions have to be able to remove our ability to do an action or they serve no purpose, so it is not possible to state that the Rules can not proceed simply because the Basic Permission is being over turned by a Basic


As for the clause I quoted being a blanket permission...
It is a printed Rule which grants us permission to measure a Range so we need a Restriction removing that Permission, as per the above. The real weakness in the Rule is the fact we have to figure out what the Rule might mean by Range, and if the 'bubble' is being measured because it is a range or just something we are measuring. The problem with it being restricted to just things with Range is other Restrictions exist which remove everything else's ability to be utilized against or by the Embarked Unit... aside from the obvious Line of Sight error as shooting at the Embarked Unit would definitely be a range measurement during the 'check range' step.

The concept that the bubble, and other things with inch based measurements, gives the Rule some purpose in the game and allows a wide range of things to function without the Authors having to write 'can be used by Embarked Units' on everything they what they want to function. Should the Authors have more things allowed then disallowed, it would be far easier to write the Restriction into the Wargear which can not be used, or some other modification when the Model with it is Embarked that removes the Range. As the Rule grants permission to measure to the vehicle when trying to determine the Range of the Embarked Unit, we have permission to do so unless otherwise denied.

Besides, even if you where to find something that is overly broken... still doesn't stop the clause from being written in the book and can be overturned by something else which is written.

I have problems with it as well, it is a terribly written Rule because I can make two very broken arguments with it, but it is still the Written Rule. Curious thing about those broken arguments, they would remove the ability of nearly every object to interact with an Embarked Unit other then Line of Sight ignoring Weapons. It would be 100% written, very exploitable by someone wanting to deny their opponent tactics while being 'That ******* guy,' and completely against the spirit of the game... but it would be 100% correct. I don't think the opposite view, removing the word 'it's' from the permission to deny Line of Sight blocking Weapons (HIWPI) and interpreting 'a Range' to mean measurement so it gives the Rule the ability to do something (RAI) is not that bad of a 'fix' for this situation.

For I am not going to sit down and write out a list of what can and can not be used on an Embarked Transport and get my opponent to sign it every time....

I would like to point out something we might have completely forgot in the "Dreadnought can charge" side of things:

The Dreadnought has two restrictions:
-Cannot Charge from Reserves.
-Cannot Charge out of a non-Assault Vehicle.

Augur Triangulation gives permission to charge from Reserves, but there is no permission overriding the second Restriction.

Conclusion:
Drop Pod Passengers can't charge.

No change for anything not in Transports though.

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would like to point out something we might have completely forgot in the "Dreadnought can charge" side of things:

The Dreadnought has two restrictions:
-Cannot Charge from Reserves.
-Cannot Charge out of a non-Assault Vehicle.

Augur Triangulation gives permission to charge from Reserves, but there is no permission overriding the second Restriction.

Conclusion:
Drop Pod Passengers can't charge.

No change for anything not in Transports though.

Oh, missed that thanks!