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blaktoof wrote:
now I do concede a RAI argument can be made based on the wording of drop pod assault that shows the pod+unit are held in deepstrike reserves, however the same ruling only says the pod arrives, and not the pod+embarked unit arrive, so another RAI argument with the same support could be said that the combined roll is for the pod arriving by deepstrike, and they arrive together, but only the pod is arriving by deepstrike as it is the only one with deepstrike, in such a case the unit would be arriving as well but could not be arriving from 'deepstrike reserves' as per the RAW because it did not arrive by deepstrike.

And while I appreciate many posters sharing their opinion on this matter, that no one has been able to construct a rules argument that actually deals with the issue of 'arriving by deepstrike' is a rule and not just a statement, as well as 'deep strike reserves' being a unit placed in reserve that you tell your opponent is arriving by deepstrike, and the unit embarked is not arriving by deepstrike as per the previously stated makes it difficult to take many of your responses with any merit.

So, Blacktoof, having read all of this i fully understand your point, and it does make sense, apart from the fact that:
Deep Striking
Deep Strike Reserves

Are not RaI but RaW.

I should point out to you: You believe that only arriving "by deepstrike" is Raw, like Legion of the damned:

They always start the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. When they arrive by Deep Strike, you may reroll the Scatter dice if you wish.

And you are correct that a lot of the Raw is like that.

But in this very example, we have 2 rules that are undeniably RaW (because they are text found in the books):

Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves.

Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve

Both Units: Pod + Occupants are undeniably in Deep Strike Reserves (This is RaW)
Augur triangulation only needs a Unit to have come from Deep Strike Reserves (This is also RaW)

Now, were the Occupants in Deep Strike Reserves?
Answer is Yes.

Did the Occupants arrive this turn?
Yes, they disembarked (they did NOT Deep Strike)

What can they do per the "Augur triangulation"?
"can charge in the same turn it arrives."

Proof by RaW, which everyone can see and should really not be hard to understand.
We can keep discussing the Teleport Homers, but the above is case closed for me.

@Blacktof -- if you're going to quote, please quote the whole passage so that there is context. You make it sound like a rule, when in fact it is a narrative:

Angel's Fury Spearhead Force

When lightning strikes against heavily-defended xenos positions were called for, Dante looked to the most experienced warriors of the Blooded to lead the attack. Fully half the 2nd Company's Tactical Squads were transported within the armored hulls of Stormraven Gunships, where they would be delivered with practiced efficiency to the heart of the Tyranid host to secure a beachhead. Once on the ground, the squad sergeants triangulated their teleport homers to call in additional support. With such logicstical data at their disposal, inbound reinforcements could drop or teleport to their location with pinpoint precision, enabling them to respond to priority threats with immediate effect. On many occasions, a Spearheead force would herald the arrival of an Angel's Wrath Intervention Force dropping from on high to smash the xenos.

It's a nice little story, not a rule. But, it says in the story that the beacon is for drop and teleport units (couldn't be clearer, right?). It says the sergeants did the triangulation once they were on the ground. But it doesn't say that they *had* to be on the ground to do the triangulation. Perhaps the sergeants had to be on the ground for other purposes too, for instance, to provide covering fire for the arriving units.

Play it however you want. I'm just telling you how our group of ten-ish regulars have decided to read it, and on a quick vote (since one guy wants to buy new tacticals and an Stormravens to paint BA red, in order build an Angel's Fury), not a single person objected to their reading of the rule, even though most of us (including me) will probably never use this formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@BlackTalos -- nice summary. I concur.

as a nova psychic shriek does not require LoS.
- Blaktoof
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18"
- Psychic Shriek

If you want to change your argument to something which is actually a Nova I will understand, but you encounter one massive problem:
Psychic powers cannot target units that are embarked on a Transport
- Psykers and Transports

This once more brings me back to the problem at hand:
If we lack permission to measure to Embarked Units unless specific informed to do so, why are there numerous Restrictions all specifically designed to prevent situations that already fall under this Global Restriction?

Blaktoof, do you ever read what you type? How can a unit arrive together if it wasn't held in the same place? Too, why do you keep ignoring the ba codex in regards to drop pods and drop pod assaults, specifically the (both pod and unit) are placed in dee strike reserve? Codex > brb,correct?

JinxDragon wrote:
as a nova psychic shriek does not require LoS.
- Blaktoof
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18"
- Psychic Shriek

If you want to change your argument to something which is actually a Nova I will understand, but you encounter one massive problem:
Psychic powers cannot target units that are embarked on a Transport
- Psykers and Transports

This once more brings me back to the problem at hand:
If we lack permission to measure to Embarked Units unless specific informed to do so, why are there numerous Restrictions all specifically designed to prevent situations that already fall under this Global Restriction?

the original power i stated was psychic scream, which is a nova, you then said psychic shriek and without paying attention I typed psychic shriek.

Meant psychic scream.

Psychic powers cannot target units in transports, novas do automatically target all units in range. as nova powers are in the appendix they are listed as an advanced rule and not a basic rule, but nova is also a basic power. not sure how something that can not be targetted interacts with something that automatically targets everything in range but forgoing that.

a player has an embarked psyker in a vehicle, another player uses crucible of malediction in range of the vehicle. As the player can measure range to the vehicle for the embarked unit, is the psyker affected? It happens during the shooting phase instead of shooting, but is not a shooting attack.

along the same vein, do you believe shadows in the warp affect embarked psykers if the vehicle they are embarked in is within range of a model with that rule?

Blaktoff,
Never mind, I have located it and it is a perfect example of what I was going to point out, being Codex specific and all that!

Notice how this Rule does not state 'this Power targets everything within 6 inches' but instead states it is a Nova Power with a Range of 6 Inches?
By informing us that it is a Nova Power, we are required to return to those very basic instructions in order to proceed with it's resolution. Those instructions are defined as 'Basic Rules' as per Basic vs Advanced, so the line stating that all units within Range are targeted does not have permission to over-turn the Restriction preventing the Embarked Unit from being Targeted. This will mean we need to fall back on the fundamental concepts in order to proceed, in particular the concept that all Restrictions need to be obeyed even if they will prevent you from carrying out an action.

If you disagree I simply have to ask:
What Psychic Power does not over-turn the Basic Rule of 'Can not Target Embarked Unit' if all of them are Advanced or Codex by your definition?
I believe the above question shows how flawed the concept of 'The Power is in the Appendix, so over-turns any Basic Restriction' is, given that effectively render all Restrictions on using Psychic Powers powerless...

As for the Crucible and Shadows in the Warp:
Without a direct Rule quote showing that these 'Ranges' are exempt from the Clause I quoted, why should the Embarked Unit be immune to their effects from a Rule as Written point of view?

JinxDragon wrote:
Blaktoff,
Never mind, I have located it and it is a perfect example of what I was going to point out, being Codex specific and all that!

Notice how this Rule does not state 'this Power targets everything within 6 inches' but instead states it is a Nova Power with a Range of 6 Inches?
By informing us that it is a Nova Power, we are required to return to those very basic instructions in order to proceed with it's resolution. Those instructions are defined as 'Basic Rules' as per Basic vs Advanced, so the line stating that all units within Range are targeted does not have permission to over-turn the Restriction preventing the Embarked Unit from being Targeted. This will mean we need to fall back on the fundamental concepts in order to proceed, in particular the concept that all Restrictions need to be obeyed even if they will prevent you from carrying out an action.

If you disagree I simply have to ask:
What Psychic Power does not over-turn the Basic Rule of 'Can not Target Embarked Unit' if all of them are Advanced or Codex by your definition?
I believe the above question shows how flawed the concept of 'The Power is in the Appendix, so over-turns any Basic Restriction' is, given that effectively render all Restrictions on using Psychic Powers powerless...

As for the Crucible and Shadows in the Warp:
Without a direct Rule quote showing that these 'Ranges' are exempt from the Clause I quoted, why should the Embarked Unit be immune to their effects from a Rule as Written point of view?

all the rules for psychic powers would overturn the basic rules if they are contained in the rules for the psychic power itself, as nova is a basic rule the resolution of nova powers is a basic rule. I agree that there is an impasse there as there is a situation where you have a rule that automatically targets everything in range(a nova power) vs. can not be targetted by psychic powers and both are 'basic' rules.

this would still allow barrage weapons and any weapons that ignore line of sight, smart missiles, and the hive guard gun, and some others to target units embarked as well if the rule contained under embarked units regarding measuring is blanket permission for all things to be measured to/from them and not a statement of how to measure if something has specific permission.

at this point this is slightly off topic, but still relates to teleport homers and whether or not they measure from the hull of an embarked vehicle because that statement has blanket permission for everything (which is never stated) or do not work while embarked because there is no permission to use them while embarked to use the rules for how to measure from an embarked unit.

from a rules as written standpoint regarding the statement under embarked unit, if it is indeed permission for a unit to use wargear/special rules as blanket permission, ie the rule/wargear does not need to state you can use it while embarked, and this is how you do it- then both crucible and shadows would affect embarked models. I am sure there are some other things.

We can agree that there are problems within these Rules.
The conflict you are putting forth is not the best of an example of a 'same level conflict' as I know them. Restrictions have to be able to remove our ability to do an action or they serve no purpose, so it is not possible to state that the Rules can not proceed simply because the Basic Permission is being over turned by a Basic


As for the clause I quoted being a blanket permission...
It is a printed Rule which grants us permission to measure a Range so we need a Restriction removing that Permission, as per the above. The real weakness in the Rule is the fact we have to figure out what the Rule might mean by Range, and if the 'bubble' is being measured because it is a range or just something we are measuring. The problem with it being restricted to just things with Range is other Restrictions exist which remove everything else's ability to be utilized against or by the Embarked Unit... aside from the obvious Line of Sight error as shooting at the Embarked Unit would definitely be a range measurement during the 'check range' step.

The concept that the bubble, and other things with inch based measurements, gives the Rule some purpose in the game and allows a wide range of things to function without the Authors having to write 'can be used by Embarked Units' on everything they what they want to function. Should the Authors have more things allowed then disallowed, it would be far easier to write the Restriction into the Wargear which can not be used, or some other modification when the Model with it is Embarked that removes the Range. As the Rule grants permission to measure to the vehicle when trying to determine the Range of the Embarked Unit, we have permission to do so unless otherwise denied.

Besides, even if you where to find something that is overly broken... still doesn't stop the clause from being written in the book and can be overturned by something else which is written.

I have problems with it as well, it is a terribly written Rule because I can make two very broken arguments with it, but it is still the Written Rule. Curious thing about those broken arguments, they would remove the ability of nearly every object to interact with an Embarked Unit other then Line of Sight ignoring Weapons. It would be 100% written, very exploitable by someone wanting to deny their opponent tactics while being 'That ******* guy,' and completely against the spirit of the game... but it would be 100% correct. I don't think the opposite view, removing the word 'it's' from the permission to deny Line of Sight blocking Weapons (HIWPI) and interpreting 'a Range' to mean measurement so it gives the Rule the ability to do something (RAI) is not that bad of a 'fix' for this situation.

For I am not going to sit down and write out a list of what can and can not be used on an Embarked Transport and get my opponent to sign it every time....

I would like to point out something we might have completely forgot in the "Dreadnought can charge" side of things:

The Dreadnought has two restrictions:
-Cannot Charge from Reserves.
-Cannot Charge out of a non-Assault Vehicle.

Augur Triangulation gives permission to charge from Reserves, but there is no permission overriding the second Restriction.

Conclusion:
Drop Pod Passengers can't charge.

No change for anything not in Transports though.

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would like to point out something we might have completely forgot in the "Dreadnought can charge" side of things:

The Dreadnought has two restrictions:
-Cannot Charge from Reserves.
-Cannot Charge out of a non-Assault Vehicle.

Augur Triangulation gives permission to charge from Reserves, but there is no permission overriding the second Restriction.

Conclusion:
Drop Pod Passengers can't charge.

No change for anything not in Transports though.

Oh, missed that thanks!