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Made in au
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




Australia

Yeah I reckon it will be FAQ'd, even if its just a subtle word change to "arriving BY deepstrike" or just a plain "you cannot use this on units disembarking from transports arriving via deepstrike" or something.

   
Made in ca
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





British Columbia

This works and I don't see it getting FAQ'd myself. They have systematically removed the ability to charge from reserve up until this point. This is very much an intentional choice.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in au
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




Australia

Intentional choice to charge from reserve, but I am not sure they intended a turn 1 charge from drop pod assault - although the point investment required might make them thing meeeeehhh

   
Made in ca
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





British Columbia

Yeah. With the cost of the triangulation formation and the costs of reaching critical mass of turn one pods I agree.

More frightening will be if there is a detachment you can take of just elites which starts rolling for reserves from turn one. Have any of the leaked images revealed one like that?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in au
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




Australia

None that I have seen yet unfortunately

   
Made in ca
Plastictrees





Calgary, Alberta, Canada

It's not as though the Fury formation is guaranteed to come in on the first turn. It's really too much of a gamble to be a viable high tier list surely?
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Isle of Man

sm3g wrote:
Intentional choice to charge from reserve, but I am not sure they intended a turn 1 charge from drop pod assault - although the point investment required might make them thing meeeeehhh
The intent is most certainly not to allow turn 1 charges, as the whole thing is about Teleport homers and aiding teleporting reserves.

The rules may allow it, but read the description as well. This is not meant to aid drop pods.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






 plastictrees wrote:
It's not as though the Fury formation is guaranteed to come in on the first turn. It's really too much of a gamble to be a viable high tier list surely?


Its why the command rhino is useful.

Since this is about the most all eggs in 1 flying basket there is.

But the back up would be the drop pods as it wouldn't be a T1 loss if the rhino dies.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in ca
Plastictrees





Calgary, Alberta, Canada

 grendel083 wrote:
sm3g wrote:
Intentional choice to charge from reserve, but I am not sure they intended a turn 1 charge from drop pod assault - although the point investment required might make them thing meeeeehhh
The intent is most certainly not to allow turn 1 charges, as the whole thing is about Teleport homers and aiding teleporting reserves.

The rules may allow it, but read the description as well. This is not meant to aid drop pods.


The teleport homers are convenient existing wargear, the description in no way suggests that they are acting as teleport homers, this is an additional function allowed by the formation.
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Isle of Man

 plastictrees wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
sm3g wrote:
Intentional choice to charge from reserve, but I am not sure they intended a turn 1 charge from drop pod assault - although the point investment required might make them thing meeeeehhh
The intent is most certainly not to allow turn 1 charges, as the whole thing is about Teleport homers and aiding teleporting reserves.

The rules may allow it, but read the description as well. This is not meant to aid drop pods.
The teleport homers are convenient existing wargear, the description in no way suggests that they are acting as teleport homers, this is an additional function allowed by the formation.
Like I said, the rules allow it, but the description outright says it's meant for Teleporting reserves.

It may be legal, but using a drop pod with this is 100% against intent.
   
Made in ca
Plastictrees





Calgary, Alberta, Canada

The best scan I could find is still a bit blurry but I think the text reads: "With such logistical data at their disposal, inbound reinforcements could drop or teleport to their location with pinpoint precision..."
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka






 plastictrees wrote:
The best scan I could find is still a bit blurry but I think the text reads: "With such logistical data at their disposal, inbound reinforcements could drop or teleport to their location with pinpoint precision..."


I have a non-blurry, actual, printed White Dwarf 47 in front of me.


Angel's Fury Spearhead Force

When lightning strikes against heavily-defended xenos positions were called for, Dante looked to the most experienced warriors of the Blooded to lead the attack. Fully half the 2nd Company's Tactical Squads were transported within the armored hulls of Stormraven Gunships, where they would be delivered with practiced efficiency to the heart of the Tyranid host to secure a beachhead. Once on the ground, the squad sergeants triangulated their teleport homers to call in additional support. With such logicstical data at their disposal, inbound reinforcements could drop or teleport to their location with pinpoint precision, enabling them to respond to priority threats with immediate effect. On many occasions, a Spearheead force would herald the arrival of an Angel's Wrath Intervention Force dropping from on high to smash the xenos.

Special Rules - Augur Triangulation: If a friendly unit with the Blood Angels Faction arrives from Deep Strike Reserve with in 12" of at least two models from this Formation equipped with teleport homers, then it does not scatter, and can charge on the same turn it arrives.

Other stuff - Objective Secured, Spearhead Strike Force specials ; formation (3 + 3); restrictions.

Under restrictions, it says, "The Sergeant of each Tactical squad in this Formation must take a teleport homer as a free upgrade."



So, reading Angel's Fury fluff/logic, pick a point that is within 12" of 2 sergeants (who must have free teleport homers). Any unit friendly with Blood Angels Faction arriving from Deep Strike Reserve does not scatter, and also can charge. The fluff specifically refers to drop or teleport.

By the way, Angel's Wrath, on the facing page, is 1 vanguard vets + 2 assault squads. They have the special rule, "Guided Drop", where they start in DS Reserve and makes a single Reserve roll for the whole formation (instead of 1 roll for each unit). For assault marines, as long as the first model is placed within 6" of the vanguard veteran unit, there is no scatter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/19 01:24:16


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Talys, it also says that the Sergeants are on the ground, not flying around in their transports. So if we are using the fluff to determine intent, then nobody can benefit unless the Tac squads are on the ground, which would be after bringing in reserves.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka






Big edit -- I changed my mind, so I redid this and I'm going to summarize instead of having a big clump of a mess.


Augur Triangulation: If a friendly unit with the Blood Angels Faction arrives from Deep Strike Reserve with in 12" of at least two models from this Formation equipped with teleport homers, then it does not scatter, and can charge on the same turn it arrives.



Blood Angels - Drop Pod
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of the remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

Codex Space Marines - Drop Pod
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units employed on them must be held in reserve and must enter play using Deep Strike rules. At the beginning of your turn, choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a Drop Pod Assault. Units making a Drop Pod Assault arrive on their controlling player's first turn. The arrival of the remaining Drop Pods is rolled for as normal. A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod cannot charge in the turn it arrives.


Blood Angels Codex reads "Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves".
Augur Triangulation reads "If a friendly unit with the Blood Angels Faction arrives from Deep Strike Reserve... can charge on the same turn it arrives"

Therefore, units embarked upon Drop Pods arrive from Deep Strike Reserves, as long as it's a Blood Angels Drop Pod, because the rule for Blood Angels Drop Pod says so in crystal clear English. Both the Drop Pod and the Units Embarked, because they arrived, and they were previously in Deep Strike Reserves. Because all of the words are capitalized, we can say that "Deep Strike Reserves" is a definition (as you would in a legal document), rather than use of descriptive adjectives and a noun of the English language.

Units embarked upon Drop Pods not beloging to Blood Angels, who knows. They are arguably in regular reserves, and enter play using Deep Strike rules.

Anyways, if I were playing a BA player with Augur Triangulation, I would most definitely give it to them if they wanted it.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/12/19 02:07:53


 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

 grendel083 wrote:


It may be legal, but using a drop pod with this is 100% against intent.


Sorry, but I have a policy against believing one person speaking for another person that isn't present.

So, no offense, but unless you can point me to your name on the GW rules design staff, I'm left to assume that the rules as written are also the rules as intended.

Granted I still don't think the formation makes for a very sporting game for the hapless opponent of the BA, and this is coming from a BA player.

You'd have me if you said "this is 100% too good and will be nerfed soon" if not for all previous evidence that GW couldn't care less if something was broken: see riptides and wave serpents.

20000+ points
Tournament reports:
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




niv-mizzet wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:


It may be legal, but using a drop pod with this is 100% against intent.


Sorry, but I have a policy against believing one person speaking for another person that isn't present.

So, no offense, but unless you can point me to your name on the GW rules design staff, I'm left to assume that the rules as written are also the rules as intended.

Granted I still don't think the formation makes for a very sporting game for the hapless opponent of the BA, and this is coming from a BA player.

You'd have me if you said "this is 100% too good and will be nerfed soon" if not for all previous evidence that GW couldn't care less if something was broken: see riptides and wave serpents.


Have you tested the formation yet? You seem quick to calling it broken. It seems to me that through proper deployment and preparation that it can handily defeated. Its really just the yin to the yang of the Tau gunline

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/19 03:04:48


 
   
Made in au
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




Australia

I think there are more broken things that aren't as reliant on many many factors as this. Not to mention the point and money investment that most BA players probably would not otherwise use to make it go.....

   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka






sm3g wrote:
I think there are more broken things that aren't as reliant on many many factors as this. Not to mention the point and money investment that most BA players probably would not otherwise use to make it go.....


The money investment is not large at all. You just need 3 gunships and 3 tactical squads. Any SM player will have the tac squads, so you're talking, what, about $200 - $250 for the 3 helos.

The points investment is another thing. 1020 points is a big chunk to deploy (and actually, the $300 or so it costs to do 1020 points, and the effort to paint it is small). But hey alpha strike is very, very powerful. And it's not like those Stormravens and tacticals are exactly useless. Each Helo has four S8 AP2 missiles that are essentially LOS (72"), which is no joke. The Concussive can mess someone up too.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think this is "the next wave serpent", but it the formation bonus is worthwhile to consider, and above-average.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/19 03:43:24


 
   
Made in au
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




Australia

"Any SM player will have tactical squads" <--- except all those BA players that rolled with jump pack marines for their troops in the past couple of editions...

Or any that rolled with bikes as troops.

I seriously have to buy 3 tactical squads to make this happen and I have over 4k of BA.

   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka






sm3g wrote:
"Any SM player will have tactical squads" <--- except all those BA players that rolled with jump pack marines for their troops in the past couple of editions...

Or any that rolled with bikes as troops.

I seriously have to buy 3 tactical squads to make this happen and I have over 4k of BA.


Wow, I stand corrected then. Well, unless you want the really purdy new tacs, you can get boring SMs pretty cheap. On black Friday, I bought 7 packs of 5 basic marines for just $7 per pack. They were strange pushfits, but the left shoulders (which were DA) are separate.
   
Made in au
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




Australia

Haha nah I am definitely getting the purdy BA ones (I think the GF is getting me one box for Christmas).


But still, in any lists that are under 2k points your investing your entire list to this one all-in kinda strat!

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Hoping someone can clear this up for me. Assuming all of the assault from drop pod etc works, I can't find the rule that allows the storm ravens to zoom 36" before the reserves come in for this dreaded turn 1 assault.

Rule book says that "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move." (sorry if to big of a quote for site rules. feel free to redact mods)

Since you have to do reserves first, you would have to place storm ravens at the edge of the deployment zone. This would mean that storm ravens were deployed side by side there would be a little less than a 12" range for the ability to work, and it shrinks substantially as they spread out. Add in 12 inches for possible assault range and you are only reaching 36" across the board max for range. Thus the turn 1 assault is easily negated through deployment. Am I missing something?
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

col_impact wrote:


Have you tested the formation yet? You seem quick to calling it broken. It seems to me that through proper deployment and preparation that it can handily defeated. Its really just the yin to the yang of the Tau gunline


I've been playing games like magic, d&d, and 40k since I was 5. I have a very good accuracy in my history of predictions on the OP-ness or UP-ness of things in complicated rule sets. If you don't believe me, that's fine.

In my opinion, armies that stand a good chance against a list properly using this formation to its limit are other alpha strike/beta strike lists that go second, and things like green tide, where assaulting with half your army without whittling their army down some first is actually a bad idea, even for furious charging red thirsted blood angels.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/19 07:31:00


20000+ points
Tournament reports:
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Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka






nidsNguard wrote:
Hoping someone can clear this up for me. Assuming all of the assault from drop pod etc works, I can't find the rule that allows the storm ravens to zoom 36" before the reserves come in for this dreaded turn 1 assault.

Rule book says that "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move." (sorry if to big of a quote for site rules. feel free to redact mods)

Since you have to do reserves first, you would have to place storm ravens at the edge of the deployment zone. This would mean that storm ravens were deployed side by side there would be a little less than a 12" range for the ability to work, and it shrinks substantially as they spread out. Add in 12 inches for possible assault range and you are only reaching 36" across the board max for range. Thus the turn 1 assault is easily negated through deployment. Am I missing something?


Flyers Zoom for Combat speed of 18" or Cruising Speed 36". Plus, they can Flat Out (in lieu of shooting) for an additional 12" or 24".

All this happens when they move on because BRB says "When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's table edge. Measure the model's move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn." It goes on to say special abilities and charge can't be used. But, Zoom and Flat Out are not Special Abilities -- it's just how Flyers move.

Then, still at the Start of Turn, half your Drop Pods arrive from Deep Strike. Place them within the triangulation parameters, and presto, they don't scatter and are specifically permitted to charge turn 1.

The magic is, we're still in Start of Turn. You still have the whole rest of your turn!

This seems awfully good, because basically, if you get your 3 ravens up 12" apart from each other, you can deep strike within 12" of THAT and still charge. So --

Raven <--- 12" ---> Raven <---12"---> Raven

Now, draw 3x 12" circles around the ravens. That's a massive zone that you can drop and charge half of your drop pods on, for Turn 1. Plus, you know exactly how many drop pods are coming in T1, so there aren't any variables. Because you get rerolls, it's unlikely that you can't at least get 2 Ravens up, which is still very decent horizontally.

If you have a null deployment (ie you start the board with nothing on it), and your opponent has to set up their stuff, you can basically alpha strike and wipe out whatever targets you want, especially with units like dreadnoughts with blood talons. Maybe Assault Terminators. And, you still have very decent flyers on the board, and don't forget the 30 space marines that are also pretty deep in enemy territory -- especially a 6x4 table.

On the downside, for an 1850 force, you've blown 1020 points just for the formation. That's just 830 points for everything else... But is it enough?

If I got it wrong, someone please tell me. I don't play Blood Angels, so all this is just theorycrafting

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/19 07:58:41


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Ah missed the part where it says you roll for that formation at turn 1. Makes sense now. Thanks
   
Made in kr
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

Well after the arrival of the penta hive tyrant, I'm not really sure there is going to be a cap on how some things are going to be silly overpowered anymore

see necron c'tan... Honestly compared to those 2 things, this is quite tame

+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in gb
Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

col_impact wrote:
The rule I quoted called a unit that disembarked from a Deep Striking transport a Deep Striking unit. Do you agree?

Spoiler:
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.


The rule proves that the embarked unit has arrived from Deep Strike reserves. The rules sometimes refer to Deep Strike as Deep Strike Reserve. This rule clearly shows that Deep Striking can refer to a unit that has arrived from Deep Strike reserves (whether or not the unit itself had the Deep Strike USR)


Nope, i do not agree, let me break down that rule for you, because you seem to be linking two parts of it:

Restriction: "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further,"
Specific Permission: "other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

Now linking the "they" to the "Deep Striking units" is correct, but only the Transport (of that Unit) is Deep striking. The Unit inside (the Unit) is not Deep Striking.

And it never can, or prove that it can:
1)How they followed the Deep Strike rule
2)How they obtain the rule, as we know transports don't confer them.

DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
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It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 BlackTalos wrote:
col_impact wrote:
The rule I quoted called a unit that disembarked from a Deep Striking transport a Deep Striking unit. Do you agree?

Spoiler:
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.


The rule proves that the embarked unit has arrived from Deep Strike reserves. The rules sometimes refer to Deep Strike as Deep Strike Reserve. This rule clearly shows that Deep Striking can refer to a unit that has arrived from Deep Strike reserves (whether or not the unit itself had the Deep Strike USR)


Nope, i do not agree, let me break down that rule for you, because you seem to be linking two parts of it:

Restriction: "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further,"
Specific Permission: "other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

Now linking the "they" to the "Deep Striking units" is correct, but only the Transport (of that Unit) is Deep striking. The Unit inside (the Unit) is not Deep Striking.

And it never can, or prove that it can:
1)How they followed the Deep Strike rule
2)How they obtain the rule, as we know transports don't confer them.


If we follow your read then the sentence collapses under its own logic and describes a situation that is impossible. In your read, the unit somehow Deep Strikes to land (with Deep Strike) embarked inside a Deep Striking vehicle that itself Deep Striked separately onto the battlefield. How is such a thing possible?

I am not saying that the unit embarked inside was granted Deep Strike only that it got pulled aside into Deep Strike reserves with the Deep Striking dedicated transport and the unit arrived together from Deep Strike reserves with the Deep Striking dedicated transport and the rules refer to a unit that does such a thing as a Deep Striking unit. This shows minimally for the purposes of our discussion that a unit embarked on a drop pod arrives without question from Deep Strike reserves.

Otherwise the rule completely contradicts itself and describes a situation that is logically implausible and your reading fails completely at addressing that.

The rules are more flexible with the term Deep Striking unit than you allow and that is what is confusing you. You are not using the term "Deep Striking unit" as flexibly as the rules themselves uses the term. "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that has the Deep Strike USR itself and itself arrives from Deep Strike reserves on its own. "Deep Striking unit" can also refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves with a dedicated transport that was the unit that actually did the Deep Striking.

If you feel you can explain otherwise how the rule as stated can hold up logically, please show explicitly how it does so.

For reference

Spoiler:
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/19 11:41:50


 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka






@BlackTalos/Col_impact

For the purposes of the charge, it doesn't matter if the unit inside the transport has Deep Strike or not. The formation says "arrives from Deep Strike Reserves", and the codex for Blood Angels Drop Pods (unlike Codex Space Marines Drop Pods) reads, "Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves".

So, if the codex says both the Drop Pod and the embarked unit are in Deep Strike Reserves, then the special rule of the formation, which requires arrival from Deep Strike Reserves, is triggered.

P. 162 of BRB says: "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)." That page then refers to the units which arrived as Deep Striking Units.

Now, if you want to figure out whether the embarked unit is "Deep Striking:

1. Blood Angels Drop Pod puts embarked unit into Deep Strike Reserve (because codex specifically is worded so)

2. When the Deep Strike Reserve unit arrives, it is arriving by Deep Strike (in fact, this is the ONLY way it may arrive)

3. If the unit is arriving by Deep Strike, it must be a Deep Striking unit, because BRB defines a Deep Striking Unit as a unit which arrived by Deep Strike.

Therefore, the embarked unit for BA drop pods only, have the benefits and limitation of arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, aka Reserves arriving from Deep Strike, aka Deep Striking. When arriving within 12" of 2 formation teleport homers on sergeants (which the rules do not specify must be embarked or disembarked), Deep Striking units also have the benefit of being able to charge.

Finally, if there is any doubt at all, the Angel's Fury description says "drop or teleport to their location with pinpoint precision, enabling them to respond to priority threads with immediate effect".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/19 11:38:26


 
   
Made in au
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




Australia

BlackTalos:

It clearly states in the blood angels dex that BOTH UNITS ARE IN DEEPSTRIKE RESERVE - BOTH

Now, the rules for this formation clearly state: arriving FROM deepstrike reserve - not by deepstrike, but just they were in deep strike reserve before they were on the board.

Now unless you can show us where it says they move from Deepstrike reserve to somewhere else before coming onto the board your point is completely null/void/wrong.

   
 
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