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Fresh-Faced New User




Angels Fury Spearhead Force

Formation:
3 tactical squads
3 stormraven gunships

Restrictions:
Each stormraven gunship must include 10 models. The sergeant of each tactical squad in this formation must take a teleport homer as a free upgrade. This formations tactical squads cannot take dedicated transports and must begin the game embarked in the stormraven gunships from this formation.

Special rules:

Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.


Spearhead strike force:
When making reserve rolls make a single roll for the entire formation, which you can choose to re-reoll. If successful, all units arrive from the formation.You can make a reserve roll for this formation from the start of turn 1.


So if I'm reading this correctly this means that you can take drop pods and have them come in first turn after your stormravens have come in and then have whatever was in the drop pod assault since the Augur triangulation special rules supercedes any of the base rules that don't allow you to assault correct?
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




No, because whatever is in the drop pod is arriving via the drop pod, not the deep strike rules.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Warmonger2757 wrote:
No, because whatever is in the drop pod is arriving via the drop pod, not the deep strike rules.


Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods AND units embarked in them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves.

Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.


The rules for drop pod assault is clear that both the drop pod and units embarked are in Deep strike reserve. The augur triangulation rule says that any Blood Angels faction unit that arrives from deep strike reserve can assault the turn it arrives. The drop pod is also open topped allowing you to assault when you disembark from it that turn. Seems pretty clear cut that yes Blood angels can assault out of drop pods on the first turn.
   
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Isle of Man

Yes they were PLACED in Deep Strike Reserve, but the rule you posted States they must ARRIVE from it.

Did they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve (or disembark from a transport that did)?
Bare in mind, arriving from Deep Strike involves scattering and creating rings of models amongst other things...
   
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Hive Moscow

yes, you can assault
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




This is a tough call honestly. With the fact that drop pods are open topped, it's hard to argue that dreads would not be able to assault the turn they arrive.

Hopefully there is a FAQ.
   
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Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

Arriving from Deep Strike doesn't exist.
They first were in Deep Strike Reserve and now they are on the board, so they arrived from Deep Strike Reserve.

So Crukks, you are right. The only reason they cannot charge after DSíng with a Drop Pod is overruled by the Formation.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






RAW it looks like anything that arrives by deep strike within 12" of two of the three Tac Sergeants can assault. That would include the formation and anything else that arrives with them so long as scatter doesn't take them out of the 12" range.

Since they are very likely to be on the table T1, it looks like T1 assault is back.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





RAW arriving by deepstrike reserves has to to follow the rules for deploying by deepstrike, because that is what it says to do under deep strike reserves.

in the instance of pods +marines, the marines inside never arrive by deep strike reserve because the only way to do so in the RAW is to deploy by deepstrike, which is place model, roll scatter.

the pod arrived by deep strike, the marines inside did not, as they did not follow the rules for deploying by deep strike.

the rules for vehicles and deep strike do not state any precedence for superseding the normal deploy by deepstrike rules for arriving by deepstrike.

also if they are embarked on the stormravens how you are using their ability first turn? You cannot.

stormravens are flyers. the tactical squads that can do augur transwhatever have to start onboard them. As they do not start on the table turn 1 you have to have them come in from reserves, they have a special rule that lets them do so but as per the rule for teleport homers since the homers were not on the table at the start of the turn the units that would benefit from them cannot use them until next turn.

so at best its a turn 2 assault still.


Teleport Homer
Friendly units composed entirely of models in Terminator armour do not scatter when
they Deep Strike, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the teleport homer’s
bearer. For this to work, the bearer of the teleport homer must have been on the
battlefield at the start of the turn


i always find it ironic that marine players are often the ones that try and bend or ignore the rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/17 20:03:27


 
   
Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

blaktoof wrote:
RAW arriving by deepstrike reserves has to to follow the rules for deploying by deepstrike, because that is what it says to do under deep strike reserves.

What is the page number?
Because my digital version does not mention anything called "arriving by deep strike reserve".

also if they are embarked on the stormravens how you are using their ability first turn? You cannot.

By using the Formation-rule, duuh.

stormravens are flyers. the tactical squads that can do augur transwhatever have to start onboard them. As they do not start on the table turn 1 you have to have them come in from reserves, they have a special rule that lets them do so but as per the rule for teleport homers since the homers were not on the table at the start of the turn the units that would benefit from them cannot use them until next turn.

so at best its a turn 2 assault still.

Friendly units composed entirely of models in Terminator armour do not scatter when
they Deep Strike, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the teleport homer’s
bearer. For this to work, the bearer of the teleport homer must have been on the
battlefield at the start of the turn


i always find it ironic that marine players are often the ones that try and bend or ignore the rules.

Read your quote.
Now read this part: "For this to work, the bearer.."
The Teleport Homer has to be on the battlefield if you want to use the rules from the Teleport Homer.
The rules from the Formation are something entirely different.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





so you believe a piece of wargear that does not normally work if the model is not on the battlefield at the start of the game, should work under the same function because another special rule that uses the same wargear does not say it shouldnt work?

interesting..

but you are completely wrong.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




blaktoof wrote:
RAW arriving by deepstrike reserves has to to follow the rules for deploying by deepstrike, because that is what it says to do under deep strike reserves.

in the instance of pods +marines, the marines inside never arrive by deep strike reserve because the only way to do so in the RAW is to deploy by deepstrike, which is place model, roll scatter.

the pod arrived by deep strike, the marines inside did not, as they did not follow the rules for deploying by deep strike.

the rules for vehicles and deep strike do not state any precedence for superseding the normal deploy by deepstrike rules for arriving by deepstrike.

also if they are embarked on the stormravens how you are using their ability first turn? You cannot.

stormravens are flyers. the tactical squads that can do augur transwhatever have to start onboard them. As they do not start on the table turn 1 you have to have them come in from reserves, they have a special rule that lets them do so but as per the rule for teleport homers since the homers were not on the table at the start of the turn the units that would benefit from them cannot use them until next turn.

so at best its a turn 2 assault still.


Teleport Homer
Friendly units composed entirely of models in Terminator armour do not scatter when
they Deep Strike, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the teleport homer’s
bearer. For this to work, the bearer of the teleport homer must have been on the
battlefield at the start of the turn


i always find it ironic that marine players are often the ones that try and bend or ignore the rules.


Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.


Ok keep in mind this is a completely different rule than the teleport homer rule so they do not need to be on the board at the start of the turn.

I believe that since the model is inside the stormraven you can still get the effect from the Augur Triangulation if you are within 12 of 2 stormravens since all it says is that you have to be with 12" of the homer and the homer is inside the raven usually if this doesn't work it is mentioned in the rule. For example the orks custom force field says "All models within 6" recieve a 5+ invul against shooting unless the model is embarked in a vehicle then the vehicle get the 5+ invul save."

The marines are in the pod, they were in deep strike reserve and now they're on the board so they arrived from deep strike reserve. What you're arguing would be about the same as someone saying "Only the drop pod dies and not the guys inside because the drop pod was the only thing arriving from deep strike" in case of a deep strike mishap that killed the unit.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/17 20:33:03


 
   
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Buffalo, NY

Isn't there a restriction within Drop Pod Assault that forbids charging the turn you arrive?

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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Isle of Man

 Happyjew wrote:
Isn't there a restriction within Drop Pod Assault that forbids charging the turn you arrive?
Yes there is.

And this Formation doesn't override it.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




 grendel083 wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
Isn't there a restriction within Drop Pod Assault that forbids charging the turn you arrive?
Yes there is.

And this Formation doesn't override it.


I'm looking at the rule in the new blood angel book (the newest updated book that has drop pods) and the only thing preventing you from assaulting is the fact that you are arriving from deep strike. So from all the interpretations so far either blood angels players have to take a 1000 point formation to assault from drop pods, or they automatically are able to assault from drop pods because they didn't arrive from deep strike. So my belief is that they arrive from deep strike and the formation allows them to assault. Otherwise all blood angels players automatically can just assault with like 30 marines and 3 dreadnoughts out of drop pods first turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 20:44:01


 
   
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Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

 Happyjew wrote:
Isn't there a restriction within Drop Pod Assault that forbids charging the turn you arrive?

No, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
There is such a thing for C:SM-Drop Pods! But Blood Angel-Drop Pods don't have such a thing.

blaktoof wrote:
so you believe a piece of wargear that does not normally work if the model is not on the battlefield at the start of the game, should work under the same function because another special rule that uses the same wargear does not say it shouldnt work?

interesting..

but you are completely wrong.

No? The Teleport Homers never work.
But this has nothing to do with Homers working or not, this ruling is from the Formation and not from the Teleport Homer.

It even says so in the text self! "For this to work.."
So for THAT ability to work, it has to be on the table.
And you are telling me that it also stops an unrelated ruling from a Formation?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






@Blaktoof: the teleport homers certainly won't help prevent scatter until they've been on the table for a turn, but the formation rule makes no such restriction in the application of it's benefit. Additionally, drop pod assault definitely does not have any wording that prevents assault. You're probably thinking about the rules for deep strike which specifically state that you can not assault after arriving by deep strike - which the formation rules override.

I also must say that I don't play blood angels or ally them into my army. I don't have any storm ravens. I also really don't like that GW is letting an army get a T1 assault when they went to such great lengths to prevent me from doing so.

But trying to deny that the formation works the way the rules say it works won't help. Just find a way to counter it on the table top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just learned that Stormravens don't have deepstrike. I thought that they did for some reason. Without deepstrike, the earliest you could assault with the benefit of this formation would be T2, since the formation has to fly across the table to get in position so that when the deepstriking units arrive the homing beacons are there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 21:36:00


 
   
Made in us
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Sioux Falls, SD

Couldn't you cruise 36' then flat out to get to a point where you could reliably get your pods on the board writhing charging distance?

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The Midwest

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Couldn't you cruise 36' then flat out to get to a point where you could reliably get your pods on the board writhing charging distance?


Um, yes.
That's pretty much why the rules issue is being discussed here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 22:00:45


 
   
Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

Well, let's be honest!
They have been removing it from individual units.
They are giving it back in a 1000+ point Formation in a WD to boost the sale of their Tactical Marines (and WD) while at the same time rubbing more salt in the wound of losing ASM-Troops and not getting a new Flyer.
That sounds exactly like something they'd do

Not to forget that you still have to buy the units who'd do the actual assaulting.
   
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





The Midwest

Kangodo wrote:
Well, let's be honest!
They have been removing it from individual units.
They are giving it back in a 1000+ point Formation in a WD to boost the sale of their Tactical Marines (and WD) while at the same time rubbing more salt in the wound of losing ASM-Troops and not getting a new Flyer.
That sounds exactly like something they'd do

Not to forget that you still have to buy the units who'd do the actual assaulting.


Also, GW will come out with a FAQ 3 months from now that prevents this formation from operating this way.
This is, of course, after sufficient numbers of Drop Pods, Furiosos, Stormravens, and BA Tac squads have been sold.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 22:05:06


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Couldn't you cruise 36' then flat out to get to a point where you could reliably get your pods on the board writhing charging distance?


You could do that but then the units arriving from deepstrike wouldn't arrive within 12" of the teleport homers. The formation rule says that any blood angels unit arriving by deep strike within 12" of at least two of the formation's teleport homers will not scatter and can charge the turn that it arrives. Since the movement phase happens after the reserves arrive, the teleport homers could not possibly be where you would need them in order to benefit from the rule T1.
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

 NightHowler wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Couldn't you cruise 36' then flat out to get to a point where you could reliably get your pods on the board writhing charging distance?


You could do that but then the units arriving from deepstrike wouldn't arrive within 12" of the teleport homers. The formation rule says that any blood angels unit arriving by deep strike within 12" of at least two of the formation's teleport homers will not scatter and can charge the turn that it arrives. Since the movement phase happens after the reserves arrive, the teleport homers could not possibly be where you would need them in order to benefit from the rule T1.
DERP, I knew I was forgetting something. Still, T2 tide of Angry Washing Machines is pretty cool.

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Since the entire formation is rolled at the same time your reach into your opponents DZ seems assured...

It seems like you could roll turn one for the formation, drive the stormravens up 36" when they arrive from reserve, drop pod within 12" -of at least 2 ravens, then in the movement phase...disembark 6", and in the assault phase charge up to 12".

It appears true the reserves have to come in before the rest of the movement phase but they can move their normal distance when doing so can't they?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 22:24:36


 
   
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Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

Don't Stormraven Gunships make their move immediately when they enter the Battlefield?
So:
A) Roll for SR's.
B) Move them 36" on the board.
C) Throw in some DP's within 12"
D) Disembark 6"
E) Charge!
That gives you a 56+2D6" threath-range.

Not sure why I am talking about this, I'm surely not going to buy more Tacticals and 2 SR for a trick that might be entertaining only once

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 22:24:56


 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

Kangodo wrote:
Don't Stormraven Gunships make their move immediately when they enter the Battlefield?
So:
A) Roll for SR's.
B) Move them 36" on the board.
C) Throw in some DP's within 12"
D) Disembark 6"
E) Charge!
That gives you a 56+2D6" threath-range.

Not sure why I am talking about this, I'm surely not going to buy more Tacticals and 2 SR for a trick that might be entertaining only once
Yeah, I don't think too many people are goin to spend $350 just for a trick that is one FAQ away from being invalidated.

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Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

It's pretty sweet though if you already have all the models or are just short a single Raven (like me )

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Question:

3 drop pods (from an army with an Angels Fury Spearhead Force faction) arrive from deep strike on Turn one. The first two have teleport homers. The third arrives within 12" of the first two. Can the unit from the 3rd drop pod charge on turn one?

Edit: I guess the formation's restriction that the tac marines can't take dedicated transports prevents this shenanigans.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 22:48:44


 
   
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 Hulksmash wrote:
It's pretty sweet though if you already have all the models or are just short a single Raven (like me )


I'm down a single raven and drop pod to really take advantage of it. Plus I need 2 heavy flamer marines for the tac squads.
   
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Vancouver, BC

Are Blood Angels Drop Pods still Open Topped? If they are not, that would stop you from assaulting (Disembarking from a non-assault vehicle).

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
 
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