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Sioux Falls, SD

 Crazyterran wrote:
Are Blood Angels Drop Pods still Open Topped? If they are not, that would stop you from assaulting (Disembarking from a non-assault vehicle).
In case of some bizarre GWesque mess up, I just double checked and yes they are.

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It's a shame they don't make a clear distinction between "teleporting" and "dropping". Would cut out much of the rules abuse that goes against obvious intent.

Using teleport homers to land Drop Pods? Just wrong..
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

 grendel083 wrote:
It's a shame they don't make a clear distinction between "teleporting" and "dropping". Would cut out much of the rules abuse that goes against obvious intent.

Using teleport homers to land Drop Pods? Just wrong..
It is also the thing most likely to get FAQed out of existence. But it isn't like teleporting in a bunch of Terminators is significantly less effective.

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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
It's a shame they don't make a clear distinction between "teleporting" and "dropping". Would cut out much of the rules abuse that goes against obvious intent.

Using teleport homers to land Drop Pods? Just wrong..
It is also the thing most likely to get FAQed out of existence. But it isn't like teleporting in a bunch of Terminators is significantly less effective.
I don't think they'll FAQ a White Dwarf...
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

 grendel083 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
It's a shame they don't make a clear distinction between "teleporting" and "dropping". Would cut out much of the rules abuse that goes against obvious intent.

Using teleport homers to land Drop Pods? Just wrong..
It is also the thing most likely to get FAQed out of existence. But it isn't like teleporting in a bunch of Terminators is significantly less effective.
I don't think they'll FAQ a White Dwarf...
Perhaps not, but since GW seems to subsist off sadness and pain, I can't rule it out.

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every item in the entire game that modifies scatter or eliminates it if Deepstriking in x range of the item requires the item to be on the table at the start of the turn unless the special rule/item specifically states otherwise. By this statement I am saying that all said items in the game either specify the model has to be on the table at the start of the turn for it to work, or they specify that it will allow another unit to come in within x" or reduce scatter by xd6 at the same time the unit comes in.

this was done a long time ago in about 4th edition to prevent slingshot assault armies from DSing units with items that modified scatter then DSing units within range of them etc.

The item in question that grants this formation the "triangular augur" is the teleport homer, not the special rule itself. The combination of the two, if the unit lost its teleport homers it would not be able to use this rule. The rules for the teleport homer require the bearer of the homer to be on the battlefield at the start of the turn. Assuming the restriction of the wargear itself remains when it gains this special rule "augur triangulation" because no other item in the game has been allowed to work without being on the table at the start of the turn.

from the "fluff" of triangular augur:

"once on the ground the units sergeants triangulate their teleport homers to call in additional support"

RAW the models have to be on the battlefield, RAI they have to be on the ground. Models embarked cannot do this.

RAW- teleport homers do not allow their normal function unless they are on the table at the start of the turn, RAI- the models are using their teleport homers to use "augur triangulation" and if it cannot work yet to teleport terminators it will not work yet to teleport anything else, and no item has been allowed to modify scatter without already being on the board at the start of the turn for 4 editions now.

I can 100% promise you that any tournament from big to small will rule that the teleport homers have to be on the battlefield at the start of the turn.

I would bet money, that on the battlefield will be ruled as on the table at the start of the turn- i.e. not embarked.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/18 00:14:09


 
   
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Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

blaktoof wrote:
every item in the entire game that modifies scatter or eliminates it if Deepstriking in x range of the item requires the item to be on the table at the start of the turn unless the special rule/item specifically states otherwise. By this statement I am saying that all said items in the game either specify the model has to be on the table at the start of the turn for it to work, or they specify that it will allow another unit to come in within x" or reduce scatter by xd6 at the same time the unit comes in.


Tau Homing Beacons would disagree. There is no requirement for them to be on the table at the start of the turn, simply for a model equipped with a homing beacon to be within 6" of the DS'ing model.

Tau Codex - Homing Beacon wrote:Friendly units arriving by Deep Strike do not scatter as long as the first model is placed within 6" of a model with a homing beacon.


blaktoof wrote:The item in question that grants this formation the "triangular augur" is the teleport homer, not the special rule itself.

Assuming the rule quote above is correct and in its entirety, I would disagree that it is the homer granting the ability. The rule simply requires 2 teleport homers to be within 12" of the unit arriving from deep strike reserves.

Is your unit in deep strike reserves?
Are the 2 homers within 12" when your unit arrives from deep strike reserves?
Yes? Good, you can assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
blaktoof wrote:


RAW- teleport homers do not allow their normal function unless they are on the table at the start of the turn, .


This is not the teleport homers "normal" function. Its normal function only applies to units composed entirely of models in Terminator armor

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 00:26:05


 
   
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Assuming the rule quote above is correct and in its entirety, I would disagree that it is the homer granting the ability. The rule simply requires 2 teleport homers to be within 12" of the unit arriving from deep strike reserves.


awesome.
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

blaktoof wrote:
Assuming the rule quote above is correct and in its entirety, I would disagree that it is the homer granting the ability. The rule simply requires 2 teleport homers to be within 12" of the unit arriving from deep strike reserves.


awesome.
this is also why the Teleport Homers affect Drop Pods, since the formation uses them outside their normal function.

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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
Assuming the rule quote above is correct and in its entirety, I would disagree that it is the homer granting the ability. The rule simply requires 2 teleport homers to be within 12" of the unit arriving from deep strike reserves.


awesome.
this is also why the Teleport Homers affect Drop Pods, since the formation uses them outside their normal function.


so massive reading comprehension problems all around..

of course they affect drop pods.

Drop pods follow the rules for arriving from deepstrike, however the models disembarking from them do not.

So once drop pods can assault that will be great, until then, the no scatter is not much different than reducing the scatter.
   
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@blaktoof Do you have the blood angels codex if you don"t keep your comments to your self, and if you do go read the drop pod section then come back and apologise for your "massive reading comprehension problems".
   
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Little Rock, Arkansas

It seems pretty obvious given the exact rules text. I did a quick fact finding journey through the book:

Yes the ravens move on after checking for reserve. Backed up by rules- check
Yes the homers work while embarked. Measure from any point on the raven's hull. Backed up by rules- check
No the homers don't need to start the turn on the board. Backed up by the formation's augur triangulation rule- check
Yes drop pods and occupants both are in deep strike reserve, and the game doesn't define "arrive," so we are left with coming from ds reserve to the table is arriving via English language. The embarked unit qualifies for charging, as the formation overrides normal "can't assault from reserve" rules- check
Yes drop pods are open topped. -check

Yes this is broken as hell and will not be allowed on the table by anyone sane. -check

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Why wouldn't it be allowed? Is it any more broken than AdLance? We're talking about 1-2 units assaulting on turn one maybe. And 12% of the time it doesn't happen at all since your formation doesn't come on turn 1.

Is it cool? Yep. Is it game breaking? Nope. No more so than any of the other crazy stuff in the game.

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It is a big investment for what you get. There are more broken thing out there that can be done at a much lower points investment.

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Eh, maybe you guys just play at much more competitive tables than I do, but in our games, if someone's army got to do a null deployment, have 3 of a really good flyer, and have several units assault on turn 1 in 90% of games, ignoring all shooting except for one overwatch attempt, it would be considered massively broken.

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I agree niv. It won't be allowed at my groups tsbles we've already said. Only person upset? The BA player
   
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blaktoof wrote:
Assuming the rule quote above is correct and in its entirety, I would disagree that it is the homer granting the ability. The rule simply requires 2 teleport homers to be within 12" of the unit arriving from deep strike reserves.


awesome.


What a well thought out rebuttal. So you agree to disagree with yourself? That's what I see from this unless you're trying to say that being in 12 " of 2 homers means they are somehow granting a rule, which we know.is nonsense .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 03:00:42


 
   
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Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I agree niv. It won't be allowed at my groups tsbles we've already said. Only person upset? The BA player


Do you guys outlaw skyblight or adlance? How about using bubblewrap like you used to have to use regularly? That's all It takes to stop this. And it's at most 2 mediocre CC units or one decent one. How is 1-2 units in CC (where you get to hit back) worse than getting units shot off the table for no response when your opponent goes first? It's different which means scary but you're spending almost 66% of your army so that 10-15% of your army can assault on turn1. Yeah, that's broken....

I play everything but Eldar, Tau, and Imperial Knights. This won't be a combo I build a list to play around in a larger event. That said it's fun and not earth shattering after the first encounter. I suggest playing against it before banning it.

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niv-mizzet wrote:


Yes the homers work while embarked. Measure from any point on the raven's hull. Backed up by rules- check



actually there are no rules to back that up, just like there are no rules to back up being able to measure range to a unit embarked in a transport for enemies shooting at the embarked unit.

further the RAI from the actual datasheet support that this is not allowed.


"once on the ground the units sergeants triangulate their teleport homers to call in additional support"

doesn't say "while flying through the air" or "at any time on the battlefield"

in fact it sounds like the tactical sergeants have to be on the battlefield to use the "augur triangulation" ability...as in deployed on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunhero wrote:
@blaktoof Do you have the blood angels codex if you don"t keep your comments to your self, and if you do go read the drop pod section then come back and apologise for your "massive reading comprehension problems".


someone posted the teleport homer had no bearing on the rules, then in the next sentence said you are required to measure from the teleport homers..

then another person responded to my comment with an unrelated comment.

so here is another unrelated comment for your whatever.

pewpew lasers go pewpew.

as for drop pods, yes the are open topped.

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

notice how it states the drop pods are arriving from reserves..but does not use the wording previously in the same rule "drop pods and units embarked on them" this means according to reading skills that only the drop pod is arriving from reserves, which coincides with the actual RAW of what arriving from reserves mean, check out the rulebook and look it up.

lets look at arriving from reserves for deep striking units.

Models held in reserve can be on a transport that is deep striking but do not gain deep strike themselves, okay.

models that deepstrike must arrive by deep deepstrike, okay.

models arriving by deepstrike follow the rules for "arriving by deepstrike"

models that arrive, from deepstrike may move no further other than to disembark and may not assault that turn.

so augur teleportation

allows models that are arriving by deepstrike to not scatter and assault that turn.

guess what? a open topped drop pod is still the model arriving by deepstrike, the squad inside is still disembarking. being open topped and the rules for drop pod assault do not stop the rule for deep strike which prevents the unit from assaulting the turn it disembarks.

further,

the rules for augur teleportation do not say the extend to units disembarking from deep striking vehicle.

nowhere in the rulebook does it state that models disembarking form a deep striking transport count as arriving by deep strike, so unless you can show how the models disembarking from the drop pod arriving by deep strike are following the rules for arriving by deepstrike, or count as you still have no ability to assault the turn they deploy.

Which at this point is still after the Stormravens arrive, and the tactical squads disembark and are on the table with their teleport homers..




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hulksmash wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I agree niv. It won't be allowed at my groups tsbles we've already said. Only person upset? The BA player


Do you guys outlaw skyblight or adlance? How about using bubblewrap like you used to have to use regularly? That's all It takes to stop this. And it's at most 2 mediocre CC units or one decent one. How is 1-2 units in CC (where you get to hit back) worse than getting units shot off the table for no response when your opponent goes first? It's different which means scary but you're spending almost 66% of your army so that 10-15% of your army can assault on turn1. Yeah, that's broken....

I play everything but Eldar, Tau, and Imperial Knights. This won't be a combo I build a list to play around in a larger event. That said it's fun and not earth shattering after the first encounter. I suggest playing against it before banning it.


outlawing a datasheet and misrepresenting the rules are two different things.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/12/18 03:56:00


 
   
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blaktoof wrote:
niv-mizzet wrote:


Yes the homers work while embarked. Measure from any point on the raven's hull. Backed up by rules- check



actually there are no rules to back that up, just like there are no rules to back up being able to measure range to a unit embarked in a transport for enemies shooting at the embarked unit.

further the RAI from the actual datasheet support that this is not allowed.


"once on the ground the units sergeants triangulate their teleport homers to call in additional support"

doesn't say "while flying through the air" or "at any time on the battlefield"

in fact it sounds like the tactical sergeants have to be on the battlefield to use the "augur triangulation" ability...as in deployed on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunhero wrote:
@blaktoof Do you have the blood angels codex if you don"t keep your comments to your self, and if you do go read the drop pod section then come back and apologise for your "massive reading comprehension problems".


someone posted the teleport homer had no bearing on the rules, then in the next sentence said you are required to measure from the teleport homers..

then another person responded to my comment with an unrelated comment.

so here is another unrelated comment for your whatever.

pewpew lasers go pewpew.

as for drop pods, yes the are open topped.

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

notice how it states the drop pods are arriving from reserves..but does not use the wording previously in the same rule "drop pods and units embarked on them" this means according to reading skills that only the drop pod is arriving from reserves, which coincides with the actual RAW of what arriving from reserves mean, check out the rulebook and look it up.

lets look at arriving from reserves for deep striking units.

Models held in reserve can be on a transport that is deep striking but do not gain deep strike themselves, okay.

models that deepstrike must arrive by deep deepstrike, okay.

models arriving by deepstrike follow the rules for "arriving by deepstrike"

models that arrive, from deepstrike may move no further other than to disembark and may not assault that turn.

so augur teleportation

allows models that are arriving by deepstrike to not scatter and assault that turn.

guess what? a open topped drop pod is still the model arriving by deepstrike, the squad inside is still disembarking. being open topped and the rules for drop pod assault do not stop the rule for deep strike which prevents the unit from assaulting the turn it disembarks.

further,

the rules for augur teleportation do not say the extend to units disembarking from deep striking vehicle.

nowhere in the rulebook does it state that models disembarking form a deep striking transport count as arriving by deep strike, so unless you can show how the models disembarking from the drop pod arriving by deep strike are following the rules for arriving by deepstrike, or count as you still have no ability to assault the turn they deploy.

Which at this point is still after the Stormravens arrive, and the tactical squads disembark and are on the table with their teleport homers..




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hulksmash wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I agree niv. It won't be allowed at my groups tsbles we've already said. Only person upset? The BA player


Do you guys outlaw skyblight or adlance? How about using bubblewrap like you used to have to use regularly? That's all It takes to stop this. And it's at most 2 mediocre CC units or one decent one. How is 1-2 units in CC (where you get to hit back) worse than getting units shot off the table for no response when your opponent goes first? It's different which means scary but you're spending almost 66% of your army so that 10-15% of your army can assault on turn1. Yeah, that's broken....

I play everything but Eldar, Tau, and Imperial Knights. This won't be a combo I build a list to play around in a larger event. That said it's fun and not earth shattering after the first encounter. I suggest playing against it before banning it.


outlawing a datasheet and misrepresenting the rules are two different things.


Ok so the unit inside doesn't arrive from deep strike. So now i can assault with them automatically without the formation right? Because the only thing stopping them from assaulting is the fact that they arrive from deep strike reserve. So pick your poison you want it so that all units from drop pods can assault or just the ones people can get after doing this special formation.

I love how you're so against blood angels assaulting turn one but we have things like wolfstar, seerstar, transcendent ctans, full armies of knights. Overall a couple units being able to assault first turn is not something that will break the game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/18 04:10:32


 
   
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crukks, how do you see a turn 1 assault happening? The formation can't take dedicated transports.
   
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col_impact - Drop Pod Assault.

As many people have said, bring in the ravens, move them 36". Bring in your drop pods (half of your pods arrive first turn). Have them land near enough to the ravens to get the formations bonus.....profit?

   
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Sioux Falls, SD

sm3g wrote:
col_impact - Drop Pod Assault.

As many people have said, bring in the ravens, move them 36". Bring in your drop pods (half of your pods arrive first turn). Have them land near enough to the ravens to get the formations bonus.....profit?
I need to do some measurements and graphs to see just how far ahead you can get two pods. Space may be an issue in terms of making this work. But the prospect of getting two CHARGING Angry Washing Machines on the board to mess up your opponent's day makes me smile. I guess the best way to defend against this is to deploy at the back of your zone and let those dreads fall where they can't deal with your stuff, then proceed to kill them on your turn.

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That's exactly what you do, if playing width. If playing standard deployment, there is nowhere to hide. The back of your deployment zone would be 36'' away from the front of his.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The other way to defend against it is bubble wrapping, as has been said. You can't charge through enemy units.

If someone plays this they may as well go all out and use the red thirst formation for that extra initiative.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 07:45:40


 
   
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You know this is really simple. locator Beacons on the stormravens, turn 2 bring the house.

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Sioux Falls, SD

Fireraven wrote:
You know this is really simple. locator Beacons on the stormravens, turn 2 bring the house.
They wouldn't get assault out of Deep Strike, since that is tied to the Teleport Homers on the Tacticals...in the SRs.

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sm3g wrote:
col_impact - Drop Pod Assault.

As many people have said, bring in the ravens, move them 36". Bring in your drop pods (half of your pods arrive first turn). Have them land near enough to the ravens to get the formations bonus.....profit?


Please explain how you move the ravens on turn 1 before resolving deep strike which happens at the beginning of the turn.

Edit: I missed some of the formation rules. The ravens arrive from reserves first, moving onto the board, then the deep strike happens. Okay so it seems to work.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/18 08:49:52


 
   
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Isle of Man

There's just so much wrong with this Formation.

The teleport homers are suppose to be on the ground, not work in the Raven.
It's suppose to aid withe Teleporting, not all forms of deepstrike.

And Zooming flyers on turn 1!?! What the Jack Russell are they playing at? Did the Intern write this one?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 08:33:51


 
   
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Imagine both player using this formation against each other. What the hell is that gonna look like?

   
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You can always skies of blood the troops while zooming.

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