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Made in au
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




Australia

When people say bubblewrap to stop it, is that essentially putting a wall of gakky stuff in front of your important stuff, can you not target units behind other units if you can still draw line of sight?

   
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Sioux Falls, SD

sm3g wrote:
When people say bubblewrap to stop it, is that essentially putting a wall of gakky stuff in front of your important stuff, can you not target units behind other units if you can still draw line of sight?
You can't charge through another unit. So bubble-wrapping puts a big shield of wounds in front of the Angry Washing Machine or Terminators that you are trying to hurl at their Big Scary Thing. Hard to say what you can do to deal with the bubble-wrap.

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Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
sm3g wrote:
When people say bubblewrap to stop it, is that essentially putting a wall of gakky stuff in front of your important stuff, can you not target units behind other units if you can still draw line of sight?
You can't charge through another unit. So bubble-wrapping puts a big shield of wounds in front of the Angry Washing Machine or Terminators that you are trying to hurl at their Big Scary Thing. Hard to say what you can do to deal with the bubble-wrap.


Have your own?
As in: If you charge the bubble wrap with a small Unit, they have to consolidate onto that Unit, leaving a clear path for your Angry Washing Machine.
1 Turn might not be enough and this has to be done a Turn before the Washing Machine arrives, but that's one method...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 12:02:04


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Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
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Crukks
Ok so the unit inside doesn't arrive from deep strike. So now i can assault with them automatically without the formation right? Because the only thing stopping them from assaulting is the fact that they arrive from deep strike reserve. So pick your poison you want it so that all units from drop pods can assault or just the ones people can get after doing this special formation.

I love how you're so against blood angels assaulting turn one but we have things like wolfstar, seerstar, transcendent ctans, full armies of knights. Overall a couple units being able to assault first turn is not something that will break the game
.

in regards to above.

In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.


so neither DSing units
nor
units that have disembarked from transports that arrived by deep strike may assault.

I am not against it, those are just the rules.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 15:53:24


 
   
Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

1. A Furioso in a Drop Pod is held in Deep Strike Reserve.
2. On turn 1 it goes from Deep Strike Reserve to the Battlefield.
3. The Formation tells you that units arriving from Deep Strike Reserve on the Battlefield can charge, overruling the BRB.

Which of these three points do you disagree with?
   
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Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

I think i'd have to agree with the dreadnaught being able to charge.

"If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within(...)"

"all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."


They are all in deep strike reserve.
The Pod Deep Strikes (Dread never does).
They have both arrived from deep strike reserve, whether they actually Deep Strike or not...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 16:17:27


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Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.


there is a large difference between arriving by deepstrike, and disembarking from a transport that arrived by deepstrike.

a dreadnaut in a droppod is one of those but not the other at all.

you can tell which it is by figuring out which models followed the rules in the rulebook for arriving by deepstrike.

1. A Furioso in a Drop Pod is held in Deep Strike Reserve.
2. On turn 1 it goes from Deep Strike Reserve to the Battlefield.
3. The Formation tells you that units arriving from Deep Strike Reserve on the Battlefield can charge, overruling the BRB.


lets not leave out the rules you are skipping.

1. a furiouso is held in combined reserves with a dreadnaut, one roll will be made and they will arrive together. despite that the furioso does not have the DS special rule, the rules for DS state a model may be embarked on the DSing transport. The models embarked do not gain deep strike, and are not listed as counting as deep striking.

Deep Strike and Transports Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.


as you can see from the RAW the transport is deep strikign despite the passengers not having it, nothing states the passengers count as arriving by deepstrike, nor do they follow the explicit rules for arriving by deepstrike. They did arrive from combined reserves with the transport, and the transport was deepstriking but without permission to count as also deepstriking, the embarked units did not arrive by deepstriking.


2. turn one the drop pod goes from reserves onto the battlefield by deepstriking, it follows the rules for arriving by deepstrike.
3. The furioso disembarks from the drop pod which arrived by deepstrike. It does not follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike, as it was disembarking from another unit that arrived by deepstrike and itself was not deepstriking.
4. the formation tells us that units arriving by deepstrike reserve can charge, the BRB is overruled however the furioso did not arrive by deepstrike it disembarked from a transport that did, and does not count as deep striking nor did it gain the deep strike rule.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/18 16:37:25


 
   
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Newton Aycliffe

blaktoof wrote:
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.


there is a large difference between arriving by deepstrike, and disembarking from a transport that arrived by deepstrike.

a dreadnaut in a droppod is one of those but not the other at all.

you can tell which it is by figuring out which models followed the rules in the rulebook for arriving by deepstrike.



That is correct, as i put in my post:

The Dreadnaught does NOT arrive by Deep Strike. Only the Drop Pod is Deep Striking.

However, in the Turn before they arrive, and any Turn before that, since the beginning of the game, The entire Unit, Dreadnaught + Drop Pod, are in Deep Strike Reserve.
They have both arrived from Deep Strike Reserve, one by Deep Striking, the other only disembarked.

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Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
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Given that the drop pod rules explicitly state that the occupants are in deep strike reserve, and then they arrive on the table...

Saying they "didn't technically arrive" by some weird definition seems like an intense case of clutching at straws.

Pretty sure in our group if someone tried to rules lawyer a squad arriving as "not technically arriving," they'd just get punched and never played against again.

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Isle of Man

niv-mizzet wrote:
Pretty sure in our group if someone tried to rules lawyer a squad arriving as "not technically arriving," they'd just get punched and never played against again.
Before using the words "rules lawyer" remember that the intent of this rule is to aid Teleporting, not drop pods, and the units are not meant to be Embarked.
   
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a model being held in reserves arriving by deepstrike is sometimes referred to being in deep strike reserves.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).


given that rule above, I can find no other reference that there is a actual "state" of deep strike reserve in the rulebook, nor can I find anything suggesting that a unit embarked in a transport that are in reserves, and the transport is arriving by deepstrike counts the unit as arriving by deepstrike. Surely the unit aboard is not following the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

Can anyone find a quote stating that a unit embarked in a transport is arriving by deep strike? or a unit in combined reserves with a unit that is deep striking counts as deepstriking?

TBH this same topic has appeared many times in this edition and last edition with people on both sides, and undecided people. Saying that it happens without any rules reasons so there and BA can do it because knights and eldar is not a valid reason.

in the instance of a drop pod + embarked unit, which is arriving by deepstrike reserves and which is disembarking from a unit arriving by deepstrike reserves?

saying they did arrive by some method without any actual rules support seems like massive clutching at nothing and making things up.

if your gaming group thinks rules discussions are a basis for punching people I am certain some of them will eventually find a way to jail for assault.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/18 16:46:22


 
   
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I think the general consensus is that you can assault out of a drop pod on turn 1 assuming all the criteria are met regarding the formation rules. It's really only Blaktoof who seems to disagree and he isn't going to be swayed by any logic other than his own.

@grendel083

I wouldn't be so sure of your statement. Seems to me that the intent is mostly for Assault Marines (which don't teleport)and Drop Pods since it's a tactical spearhead for a tactical company meaning that it's unlikely teleporting units are used regularly with this method of assault. Unless the 1st and 2nd company always deploy to the same warzones.

Basically Blood Angels found a way to use teleport homers to coordinate their rapid method of warfare.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 16:50:53


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I love how everyone keeps dismissing that teleport homers are required to be on table at the start of the turn to work, and the background info for "augur triangulation" states the tactical sergeants have to be on the ground to triangulate their teleport homers...

I would disagree that the general consensus is that you can actually perform this nonsense and it is valid rules wise.

Despite the fact I am wasting time trying to explain the plain rules to people, others in this thread have already stated it does not work as well in this same thread. They just have more sense than I do in regards to arguing over the internet.






This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 16:56:04


 
   
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Where are the rules allowing measurement to a single model embarked on a Transport?

I see the rules provide for measurements to a unit, but not a single member of the unit. If we aren't granted permission to measure to the Sergeant who is not on the table, how is it done?

If the above is the case, is there a timing problem? Can the unit come in on a SR and use Skies of Blood prior to the Drop Pods being placed?
   
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Newton Aycliffe

blaktoof wrote:
Can anyone find a quote stating that a unit embarked in a transport is arriving by deep strike? or a unit in combined reserves with a unit that is deep striking counts as deepstriking?

Thing is, i'm quite sure that it has been disproved by Nos and others (if memory serves), and that an embarked Unit cannot be Deep Striking.
They never count as Deep Striking, even if the following rule is ambiguous:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."
Because it make it sound very much like the occupants are Deep Striking, but that is not possible, as proven.

Now the case of the OP, here is different.
blaktoof wrote:
given that rule above, I can find no other reference that there is a actual "state" of deep strike reserve in the rulebook, nor can I find anything suggesting that a unit embarked in a transport that are in reserves, and the transport is arriving by deepstrike counts the unit as arriving by deepstrike. Surely the unit aboard is not following the rules for arriving by deepstrike.


The problem is this RaW: "Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. (...)"
from the (brand new) Blood Angels Codex, and other Marine Codices.

The term "Deep Strike Reserves" is not defined (clearly) in the BRB, but the following rule calls upon it as well:
"If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within(...)".

So by RaW:
1)Pod + Dread "must" be in Deep Strike Reserves.
2)If unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserves, it "can charge in the same turn it arrives"

Neither 1) or 2) requires any Deep Striking. Simply that a Unit is in "Deep Strike Reserve" and arrives *from* it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
blaktoof wrote:
I love how everyone keeps dismissing that teleport homers are required to be on table at the start of the turn to work, and the background info for "augur triangulation" states the tactical sergeants have to be on the ground to triangulate their teleport homers...

I would disagree that the general consensus is that you can actually perform this nonsense and it is valid rules wise.

Despite the fact I am wasting time trying to explain the plain rules to people, others in this thread have already stated it does not work as well in this same thread. They just have more sense than I do in regards to arguing over the internet.


The timing issue is another matter, i am confused now.... I thought this was about the Formation allowing Drop Pod"ed" Dreadnaughts to charge on the Turn they arrive?

Obviously the Formation would have to be on the board already...?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 17:03:31


DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
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The Midwest

blaktoof wrote:
I love how everyone keeps dismissing that teleport homers are required to be on table at the start of the turn to work, and the background info for "augur triangulation" states the tactical sergeants have to be on the ground to triangulate their teleport homers...

I would disagree that the general consensus is that you can actually perform this nonsense and it is valid rules wise.

Despite the fact I am wasting time trying to explain the plain rules to people, others in this thread have already stated it does not work as well in this same thread. They just have more sense than I do in regards to arguing over the internet.



To be fair, I don't think people are dismissing HOW teleport homers work. It's just that their rules don't apply because of the wording of the formation. The formation only says you have to have them. So the normal "Must be on the table turn 1" mechanic is immaterial to the formation, it's just possession.

Also, using fluff to support your position doesn't apply either. You can quote fluff all day, and the answer you'll get is: "So what?"
While it may point to RAI, it has nothing to do with RAW. If we applied background fluff to rules, it'd be one crazy ass game.

 
   
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further reading of the drop pod assault rule, while the first part of the rule states pod+unit, the second half does not include the unit when discussing the pod arriving.

because only the pod is arriving by deepstrike, the unit is disembarking from the pod.

if the second part of the rule also stated the pod and unit just as the first part of the rule, I would possibly agree with you.

but as it does not even in the rules for drop pods in the BA codex we see only the pod is the unit arriving by deepstrike.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 17:06:26


 
   
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Isle of Man

 Hulksmash wrote:
@grendel083

I wouldn't be so sure of your statement. Seems to me that the intent is mostly for Assault Marines (which don't teleport)and Drop Pods since it's a tactical spearhead for a tactical company meaning that it's unlikely teleporting units are used regularly with this method of assault. Unless the 1st and 2nd company always deploy to the same warzones.

Basically Blood Angels found a way to use teleport homers to coordinate their rapid method of warfare.
The formation is extremely clear that it's intent is for Teleporting reinforcements once the tac squads are on the ground. Intent is crystal.

It's like trying to use "Rites of Teleportation" on drop pods. Technically it might be possible, but it's 100% against intent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 17:10:51


 
   
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 House Griffith wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
I love how everyone keeps dismissing that teleport homers are required to be on table at the start of the turn to work, and the background info for "augur triangulation" states the tactical sergeants have to be on the ground to triangulate their teleport homers...

I would disagree that the general consensus is that you can actually perform this nonsense and it is valid rules wise.

Despite the fact I am wasting time trying to explain the plain rules to people, others in this thread have already stated it does not work as well in this same thread. They just have more sense than I do in regards to arguing over the internet.



To be fair, I don't think people are dismissing HOW teleport homers work. It's just that their rules don't apply because of the wording of the formation. The formation only says you have to have them. So the normal "Must be on the table turn 1" mechanic is immaterial to the formation, it's just possession.

Also, using fluff to support your position doesn't apply either. You can quote fluff all day, and the answer you'll get is: "So what?"
While it may point to RAI, it has nothing to do with RAW. If we applied background fluff to rules, it'd be one crazy ass game.


yet there is no rules support showing the rule will work if the models are not disembarked, or rather work while they are embarked and did not begin the turn on the table. And the one piece of "fluff" which points to their RAI shows that they need to be disembarked...
   
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Newton Aycliffe

blaktoof wrote:
further reading of the drop pod assault rule, while the first part of the rule states pod+unit, the second half does not include the unit when discussing the pod arriving.

because only the pod is arriving by deepstrike, the unit is disembarking from the pod.

if the second part of the rule also stated the pod and unit just as the first part of the rule, I would possibly agree with you.


If it makes it any easier for you, I'm trying to state i agree with this:
"If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve" by disembarking from a Transport. Is correct by RaW.

The Unit is disembarking, it was in Deep Strike Reserves.
It has "arrived" from Deep Strike Reserves by Disembarking.
It still arrived from Deep Strike Reserves, even if it walked onto the table (<-- Obviously it can't do that, but the Rules would still give the Unit permission to Assault)


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Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
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 BlackTalos wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
further reading of the drop pod assault rule, while the first part of the rule states pod+unit, the second half does not include the unit when discussing the pod arriving.

because only the pod is arriving by deepstrike, the unit is disembarking from the pod.

if the second part of the rule also stated the pod and unit just as the first part of the rule, I would possibly agree with you.


If it makes it any easier for you, I'm trying to state i agree with this:
"If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve" by disembarking from a Transport. Is correct by RaW.

The Unit is disembarking, it was in Deep Strike Reserves.
It has "arrived" from Deep Strike Reserves by Disembarking.
It still arrived from Deep Strike Reserves, even if it walked onto the table (<-- Obviously it can't do that, but the Rules would still give the Unit permission to Assault)



the part you bolded and quoted is not an actual rules quote I can find anywhere.

regardless "deep strike reserve" according to the rulebook is the state of a unit being held in reserve and arriving by deepstrike.

a drop pod + embarked unit can make a combined reserve roll and both arrive from reserves, but only one is arriving by deepstrike according to the rules.

this is further supported in the rules for drop pod assault.

Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.


where we read that the unit+transport are held in deepstrike reserves, and then we see that the drop pods arrive from reserve. How do they arrive? by deepstriking. the units inside arrive from reserve, how do they arrive? by disembarking from the transport which deepstriked. Does is say the pods arrive or the pods + unit arrive? Just the pods...interesting..
so the pods are arriving from reserve by deepstrike, where are the rules for how the unit is arriving that people keep saying the unit embarked on the unit that is deepstriking is also deepstriking? Because its just not there.

Did we make one roll for the combined reserves so they both arrive at the same time? yes.

did they both arrive on the table the same way? no.

Is there a rule that says the embarked unit counts as arriving by deepstrike, or from deepstrike? no.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 17:17:33


 
   
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Buffalo, NY

blaktoof:
Do we agree that the Pod occupants are in Deep Strike Reserve when the game begins?

Do we agree that after the Pod Deep Strikes, the unit has arrived from reserves?

If so, then the embarked unit has arrived from Deep Strike Reserves and can benefit from the Augur Triangulation special rule.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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 Hulksmash wrote:
Why wouldn't it be allowed? Is it any more broken than AdLance? We're talking about 1-2 units assaulting on turn one maybe. And 12% of the time it doesn't happen at all since your formation doesn't come on turn 1.

Is it cool? Yep. Is it game breaking? Nope. No more so than any of the other crazy stuff in the game.


The heck is Adlance?

But really Sure its Very strong but its also counter deployable. Especially in Hammer and anvil.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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Newton Aycliffe

blaktoof wrote:
the part you bolded and quoted is not an actual rules quote I can find anywhere.


Only the part in the quotes is from RaW. the other is my wording to try and make the point clearer.

blaktoof wrote:
regardless "deep strike reserve" according to the rulebook is the state of a unit being held in reserve and arriving by deepstrike.


The Underlined is not listed anywhere in the Rulebook.

Deep Strike Reserves is a subgroup of Reserves. All Units that Deep Strike must be in Deep Strike Reserves. But not all Units in Deep Strike Reserves can/will Deep Strike.
If A is B, B is not always A. You are making that mistake.

Models embarked on Drop Pods, by RaW, are in Deep Strike Reserves, and so is their Transport. But not all models Deep Strike Reserves have the ability to Deep Strike.

Do you agree with this at least?
We can then move on to how the Formation specifically allows all Units is Deep Strike Reserves to charge on a Turn they arrive, regardless of if they Deep Strike or not.

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Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
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your third point is a leap and has no rules basis.

the unit has not arrived from deepstrike reserves.

deep strike reserves is arriving from reserves by deepstrike, to arrive from reserves by deepstrike requires that you deploy a model then roll for scatter..

one of the units that arrives from the combined reserves roll does this, and as such arrives by deepstrike, the other disembarks from a unit that arrived by deepstrike.

further the pod does not "arrive from deepstrike reserves" as there is no such rule, as per the rules for the pod it arrives from reserves.

At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve.

note how it doesn't state it arrives from deep strike reserves. Because there is no such thing, as per the BRB arriving by deepstrike while in reserves is sometimes called "deepstrike reserves"

How does a pod arrive from reserves? by deepstriking.

It then follows the rules for "arriving by deepstriking"

how does the unit inside arrive? it arrived from reserves embarked upon a transport that arrived by deepstriking. Are we told the unit counts as deepstriking, or arriving by deepstrike? no.

we are told the unit can disembark, we are further told under deepstriking that units disembarking from a transport that deepstriked (note how they never say the unit is deepstriking..) may not assault that turn.

note how the time is taken in the rules to seperate the unit that deepstrikes, and the embarked squad.

you have no actual rules support that an embarked unit is arriving by deepstrike.

further it is obvious the unit is not arriving by deepstrike, because no rule states it counts as, is, nor does it follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

if you have a rules quote somewhere that says otherwise, please provide it.
   
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Blaktoof actually made me go back and check to see if other people agreed with him and just bowed out....Nope. Not once it was actually explained to them....

So like I said, Blaktoof is the only one who really disagrees....That's the closest you'll ever get to a 40k consensus in YMDC

@Desubot

Adamentine Lance. It's when you take 3 knights they get to re-roll their ion shield saves and charges as long as they are within 3" of each other. It's pretty universally considered the stupidest formation on the planet (as in most messed up). People taking 3 knights or more (which they were) get a massive survivability increase for no point investment. How many people were running 3 Ravens with 30 Tacticals before this formation came into existance (and who actually after it's out )

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 17:32:44


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Longtime Dakkanaut





 BlackTalos wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
the part you bolded and quoted is not an actual rules quote I can find anywhere.


Only the part in the quotes is from RaW. the other is my wording to try and make the point clearer.

blaktoof wrote:
regardless "deep strike reserve" according to the rulebook is the state of a unit being held in reserve and arriving by deepstrike.


The Underlined is not listed anywhere in the Rulebook.

Deep Strike Reserves is a subgroup of Reserves. All Units that Deep Strike must be in Deep Strike Reserves. But not all Units in Deep Strike Reserves can/will Deep Strike.
If A is B, B is not always A. You are making that mistake.

Models embarked on Drop Pods, by RaW, are in Deep Strike Reserves, and so is their Transport. But not all models Deep Strike Reserves have the ability to Deep Strike.

Do you agree with this at least?
We can then move on to how the Formation specifically allows all Units is Deep Strike Reserves to charge on a Turn they arrive, regardless of if they Deep Strike or not.


When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit. • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.


first part- unit is in reserves, you state to opponent it will arrive by deep strike (this is called deepstrike reserves)

following that in the rules is arriving by deepstrike.

There are no other rules for deep strike reserves other than being in reserves, and arriving by deepstrike reserves.

the embarked unit does not follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike, nor does it gain a rule anywhere that it counts as.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 17:34:57


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




blaktoof wrote:
 BlackTalos wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
the part you bolded and quoted is not an actual rules quote I can find anywhere.


Only the part in the quotes is from RaW. the other is my wording to try and make the point clearer.

blaktoof wrote:
regardless "deep strike reserve" according to the rulebook is the state of a unit being held in reserve and arriving by deepstrike.


The Underlined is not listed anywhere in the Rulebook.

Deep Strike Reserves is a subgroup of Reserves. All Units that Deep Strike must be in Deep Strike Reserves. But not all Units in Deep Strike Reserves can/will Deep Strike.
If A is B, B is not always A. You are making that mistake.

Models embarked on Drop Pods, by RaW, are in Deep Strike Reserves, and so is their Transport. But not all models Deep Strike Reserves have the ability to Deep Strike.

Do you agree with this at least?
We can then move on to how the Formation specifically allows all Units is Deep Strike Reserves to charge on a Turn they arrive, regardless of if they Deep Strike or not.


When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit. • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.


first part- unit is in reserves, you state to opponent it will arrive by deep strike (this is called deepstrike reserves)

following that in the rules is arriving by deepstrike.

There are no other rules for deep strike reserves other than being in reserves, and arriving by deepstrike reserves.

the embarked unit does not follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike, nor does it gain a rule anywhere that it counts as.



This rules statement would seem to contradict your argument entirely

Spoiler:
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.


The rules are calling a unit arriving via Deep Strike inside a Deep Striking Transport a Deep Striking unit.
   
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Blaktoof - another bunch of assertions there. Easiest one for you to prove - prove that to have arrived from ds reserve type unit must have arrived by deepstrike. Page and graph.
   
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Newton Aycliffe

 Hulksmash wrote:
Blaktoof actually made me go back and check to see if other people agreed with him and just bowed out....Nope. Not once it was actually explained to them....

So like I said, Blaktoof is the only one who really disagrees....That's the closest you'll ever get to a 40k consensus in YMDC


Although that really doesn't help in the discussion. Trying to explain how everyone else sees it (If, as you say, so many agree on it) might be more useful.
If we can never convince him, like i have never been convinced for other RaW Discussions, you just have to leave it at "agree to disagree".
blaktoof wrote:
your third point is a leap and has no rules basis.

the unit has not arrived from deepstrike reserves.

deep strike reserves is arriving from reserves by deepstrike, to arrive from reserves by deepstrike requires that you deploy a model then roll for scatter..

one of the units that arrives from the combined reserves roll does this, and as such arrives by deepstrike, the other disembarks from a unit that arrived by deepstrike.

further the pod does not "arrive from deepstrike reserves" as there is no such rule, as per the rules for the pod it arrives from reserves.

At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve.

note how it doesn't state it arrives from deep strike reserves. Because there is no such thing, as per the BRB arriving by deepstrike while in reserves is sometimes called "deepstrike reserves"

How does a pod arrive from reserves? by deepstriking.

It then follows the rules for "arriving by deepstriking"

how does the unit inside arrive? it arrived from reserves embarked upon a transport that arrived by deepstriking. Are we told the unit counts as deepstriking, or arriving by deepstrike? no.

we are told the unit can disembark, we are further told under deepstriking that units disembarking from a transport that deepstriked (note how they never say the unit is deepstriking..) may not assault that turn.

note how the time is taken in the rules to seperate the unit that deepstrikes, and the embarked squad.

you have no actual rules support that an embarked unit is arriving by deepstrike.

further it is obvious the unit is not arriving by deepstrike, because no rule states it counts as, is, nor does it follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike.

if you have a rules quote somewhere that says otherwise, please provide it.


I don't need a rule to prove that an embarked unit is arriving by deepstrike.
I fully agree with you, the unit is not arriving by deepstrike. That is RaW.

But you cannot disprove the fact that the Unit is in Deep Strike Reserves. I'll quote it to you word for word:
"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."

The Dreadnaught is in Deep Strike Reserves, Yes or No?

Just answer that, and we can move on to the next part. (Provide some RaW for No, too, because i've got clear proof right there.)



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